Our World XV of 2025!

0:00Alfie: Today's episode of The Ruck is brought to you by Allianz. They've been part of the rugby family for over 13 years now, backing the game at every level from the muddy grassroots pitches to the biggest stages in the sport. And their partnership with the home of England rugby, Allianz Stadium, isn't just about putting a name on the building. It's about backing the future of the game and the generations still to come. We're proud to have them on board. Let's get into it.

0:40Alfie: Welcome along to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. I'm Alfie Reynolds and very excited to be sat alongside Elgin Alderman, Alex Lowe and Will Kelleher for The Rucks 15 of the Year. How are you doing, gents? Merry Christmas to all of you. We're wearing our Christmas jumpers, aren't we, Elgin and I? and you guys have just not brought the theme at all. Well, I feel like Alex and I are staying true to form because last year when we did this episode, you tried to get us to wear like reindeer antlers and stuff like that. Christmas spirit. Which quickly got snubbed.

1:12Alfie: So yeah, Alex and I are not in the spirit in that way. Yourself and Elgin are. It's an even split. We are balanced journalists if nothing else. We bring colour, light and shade, you know. Exactly. Well, welcome along. As I say, I hope all of you listening have had a brilliant Christmas and those of you that have been listening for a while will know that when it comes to the end of the calendar year we always try and do our world 15 of the year which is always a bit of fun it always provokes a big reaction for nations that people think we've been biased against and haven't selected fairly so firstly i suppose alex elgin will how difficult did you find it this year always throws up interesting positions every year how difficult was it do you think firstly given how the game has evolved and shifted in the last 12 months we may have to come up with a 23 normally it's our 15 but it's a 23 man game now more than ever as we've discovered through the course of the year so actually in some ways there's a few positions on the bench that i've got who i wouldn't consider for the 15 but we'll we'll get to that there are a few positions which are which are hard uh either because there's unbelievable options or in a couple of positions because it's not actually as a vintage year for for competition at 10 for outside centre competition for example just to pick two so there's a there's a few South Africans who pick themselves but then there's a there are a few areas which have tested the brains a bit it'd be good debate well we definitely made this point last year as well but I think with this Springbok dominance we're seeing at the moment the fascinating thing about it is they rotate so much they use 50 players in a calendar year so it's not necessarily like previous teams that have been the dominant force in world rugby where you've got a pretty much nailed on 23 with a few players that come in and out they they chop and change so much i think it makes it a little bit trickier elgin you're often known as the the niche the hipster's choice for references and for angles on stories is that the way you've gone today or you're a bit of a traditionalist in world 15 not a single international cap no there might be one or two fun ones along

3:07Elgan: the way hopefully but i think in a lot of positions there are perhaps outstanding candidates you know in some positions south africa probably have the first two choices and then in other positions like we mentioned in that midfield, you're not quite sure who around the world is the outstanding candidate. So in those options, we might have a bit of fun and a bit of round-head and a bit of cavalier action as well. So one thing, so I'll flag them at the top of the pod. Every year we ask Opta, the statisticians, to give us some breakdown of numbers, which I'll try and pepper through the pod, and I've got them in front of me.

3:38And one of the interesting things is that South Africans generally are not very heavily represented on lots of the stat sheets and maybe that's because they rotate a lot between games and in games and some of the best players play half an hour so they're not going to be top of the charts for some of the big stats I mean there are some which we'll get on to who still overperform anyway and then the next thing is I've been looking back through the others we've done so we've been doing this since 2022 and I think we've had a different fly half every single time we've done it and i found particularly this year center difficult yeah um but i'm gonna i'm gonna throw a question out to all of you as a kickoff perhaps so this is a year where we've had a lions tour to australia that we were on and how much tariff are we putting on the lions because we're six months away from it now we've had the context of what's happened with australia and perhaps ireland who dominated the lions selections and in a usual lines year we would like if you were looking at 2017 or years gone by you'd go well there's going to be five or six lines particularly if they've won a series whereas I'm looking at my team at the moment and I've got two perhaps in the lines which is interesting what do we think about the Lions tariff everyone I don't feel that it's as high a bar this year as in previous tours I think we know we know who where Australia were in their evolution I think that Australia team got better and they they got better beyond the Lions tour so they were a work in progress but it meant that this won't go down as a as a vintage classic lions test series the second test obviously was epic in its own right but i do think if you are a home nations player you're not going to get in it without having done something with the lions i think that would be i think there are a few players who had big six nations but maybe didn't have big lions test series or jack morgan as an example i think you'd struggle as a home nations player to get into this team if you didn't also deliver for the Lions but I don't think the Lions cachet is as big against players from other nations as it has been in previous years and we discussed on last week's pod about sports personality and where this Lions team stands it doesn't feel like it's it's got the kind of gravitas of previous tours and the Ireland thing is central to that so they had by their own recent standards a bad six nations they finished third they dominated Lion series which the Lions won and then they came back home and had a pretty poor autumn by their standards so you're looking at the individuals in that team and we've always found it hard with this haven't we exercise to find places for Irish players because you think they worked when they were brilliant they worked so well in their system rather than being individually brilliant but in some I think there might be some unfortunate people who miss out because the South African option was better and maybe because the Irish generally across the 12 months weren't as vintage as they have been i think most nations might find that their player misses out because the

6:31Alfie: south african option is better yeah yeah yeah well i'll tell you what let's start off then we'll begin in the front row as we always do loose head which i think is speaking of the south african also one of the more straightforward selections we're going to have i think oxen che for everyone yes yeah consensus he actually didn't play that much but he's far and away the best the first prop to be nominated for World Player of the Year. Arguably should have come two years ago, or definitely should have come two years ago, but I think Ox, for me. There's a few other options, but none as dominant as him.

7:09Alfie: Yeah, I mean, I think particularly, going back to your point, Alex, if we've got to talk about the bench, if that's where modern rugby is, particularly test rugby, then Ellis Genshier deserves a huge mention because he's had a brilliant year for England, brilliant year on the Lions. I mean, I think most of us heading into that Lions tour always thought Andrew Porter was going to be the loose head for a long run up to it a year out and genge played his way into the starting test jersey was absolutely brilliant he's had a great year club and country really big so i think he for me he would be the bench loose head but yeah oxen che the starter i'd agree with that and i would probably extend i don't know whether we all would be consensus about the whole front row but if i extend it to that hooker and tight heads marks do toy any any disagreement with marks do

7:50Elgan: toy what i find so interesting about malcolm marks is that probably nine years ago when he made his debut I probably thought even at that early stage he might be the best hooker in the world and I probably wouldn't have said that at any stage until this year when suddenly nine years later he's had this breakout season where we talk about you know bomb squads and short amount of time on the field but he actually spent a lot of time on the field doing very well throughout it. The one the big this is where the thing we said at the top of the pod comes in because you go in any other year Dan Sheehan's the best hooker in the world probably like he had a year where he scored eight tries from hooker in 11 games he's carries more than basically anyone else in the game but marks is winning seven turnovers in 11 appearances and he's up there for carries and up there for tries himself he got five himself and you just sort of think for all that she and did and does with ireland and the lions marks is the starting hooker that you'd want in our world 15 and then you'd almost certainly have she and coming off the bench yeah let's do that she and

8:51Alfie: on the bench, Malcolm Marks starting, Thomas de Toit are starting tight head replacement tight head, any thoughts on I mean, Vilco Lowe if in doubt break glass and go Springbok I think it's usually the way isn't it

9:05Elgan: Will Stewart were being contentious, him and Joe Hayes obviously sort of doing a bit of a double act for England as well and Will Stewart and Thomas de Toit having the Bath connection as well and I think on Thomas de Toit there is an argument to say that he has been the most dominant player of the year he wasn't nominated a world player of the year he wasn't up for any awards but a treble with bath and his best and biggest and deepest year for the spring box i interviewed him just before christmas and it's kind of remarkable to think that do toy didn't make the 2023 world cup squad and was only an injury replacement in 2019 he's the best tight head in the world in 2025 he was on the world rugby uh dream team list as well and he's by miles our tight head right?

9:49Yeah we had to answer a few questions on the year for the paper and my starting point was my World Player of the Year was Peter Stefft-Dutoyt because you could give him that accolade every year but the deeper I thought about it Peter Stefft doesn't play any club rugby him and Thomas Dutoyt have been I think equally as impressive they play the same number of tests but Thomas Dutoyt has also been integral in Bath winning their first premiership winning a treble of trophies but particularly that premiership, that long craved premiership title. So he's, for me, unquestionably the first choice. And I like the pick of Will Stewart on the bench.

10:26Will Coelho, you know, we've, Quinn's fans know him. Ireland fans know what he can do after he came on in Dublin, which is such a statement game for so many players, including Malcolm Marks. But I do like, I do think Will Stewart deserves, would deserve a name check in this and selection in the 23, like massive strides for England. I remember being in New Zealand on the tour, what year was that? 24. 24, and he had two horrible tests. And I remember watching him on the phone, phoning home, thinking that this must feel like the loneliest place in the world. You're in Dunedin, literally as far as you can be from home, and you've just had your ass handed to you in a test match against the All Blacks.

11:06Must feel really difficult. And that was actually the trip. That was the day that changed his whole approach, changed his whole mindset. and he'd come through this year dominant for England Lions test player I think he would deserve a spot in the tournament and he won a Lions scrum with Ty Furlong's boot on which was three sizes too small and he was a guest on the Ruck so maybe he'd make that that's the criteria I'm trying to think who else is about to get in this team Will Collier

11:36Alfie: Andre Estes in 12 background yeah oh well hang on we might come to that well it's fairly unified so far then So Ox and Che, Malcolm Marks, Thomas Tertoy as our starting front row. Dan Sheehan, Ellis Genge, Will Stewart amongst the replacements. This is where I think it will start to get a bit more hotly contested. So into the second row. Anyone not have Maratoje? No, I've got him. I do have him. I do have him. Although I didn't, I pondered it, but I do have him. Interesting. So Maratoje I thought was somewhat of a lock just in terms of he took up the England captaincy. I think his performances have been excellent.

12:09Alfie: He's been in an England team that have lost once. He was the Lions captain on a winning Lions team. I know what we've been saying, that the Lions tour this year doesn't exactly hold the weight of previous years. But nonetheless, for me, it felt like Maratoje goes in. It was when I started looking at who do partner alongside him that I thought it became a lot more difficult. And this is where I'd have probably put Ebon Etzebeth, but I'm not putting someone that's just been handed a ban for eye gouging. Honestly, I'm the same. Like, he's a definite pick in most World 15s of the last decade. But I can't be having that.

12:40I'm afraid that really put a black mark on his year, didn't it? So I've actually gone for a guy who's usually on the bench for the box in RG Snyman. I mean, he's just a hell of a player, isn't he? He hasn't really dominated like he could for Leinster yet. We may see that in 2026 if they finally win a European Cup. But he's one of those guys where you go, a good tariff for a big test lock is if you met them in a dark alley, you'd be running the other way. and I think he's definitely in that category. I think he's actually a lovely guy, but he is a ferocious rugby player. And he was in my starting 15, regardless of the Etzabeth conversation or the marrow.

13:22I know he comes off the bench, but I think as a multi-skilled, he's incredibly physical, but he's got great hands and a huge engine. And I'd have him in my starting 15 as a premier, one of the two best in the world. So yeah, RG Snyman is a lock-in for me.

13:37Elgan: Okay, Elgin? Same with me with Snyman. I think France have got two excellent locks in Miafu and Flamant, who are big men who can offload, but we haven't quite seen the best of them this year. So I think you could pick almost any of South Africa's locks and they'd probably be a good selection in this category. He's the only one who didn't really get sent off, did he? In the autumn. Mostar and all those guys.

13:58Alfie: So I had Thibaut Flamant down more because I was struggling, really. I think you guys are right. I think it's Sneiman, particularly if we're not putting Ezebeth in. But I was wondering on Flamant. It feels like Elgin, he's really become a mainstay in that French pack now, whereas previously he wasn't. He is one of the main names on the team sheet. Have I got that wrong? I mean, you know your French rugby kind of better than me, but is he pretty key in that side?

14:20Elgan: Yeah, I think if they have everyone available, then Flamon and Miafu are the second rows you're looking at. We've seen someone like Mikael Guilla have a breakout season and filling in at number eight as well, instead of Gregory Aldrit, who's dropped off. But yes, I think that Toulouse combination, if they're at their best, then Flamel and Mayafu offer a bit of everything. But as we saw in Paris during the autumn, even these mighty Frenchmen can be smacked backwards by a few big South Africans as well. The guy who we haven't mentioned yet who won World Rugby Breakthrough Prayer of the Year is Fabian Holland, isn't it?

14:53For the All Blacks. But I still wouldn't put him in a World 15 yet, but he's maybe worth an honourable mention. and if we're just looking at the stats again from Opta that Otoji comes out very well in those so he won the most turnovers of any lock at 11 out of his 13 tests with Tyg Byrne on 8

15:11Alfie: Well I was just going to say Byrne is probably the glaring omission that we haven't mentioned up to this point isn't he? He forces his way into our back row perhaps I don't know or particularly our bench I think Ben yeah maybe carry on But then the other stat that is quite interesting and South African fans might say yes okay but who did he play against But Otoji has the best gain line success of any lock this year in Test Rugby. So that's 64.8 % above. Warner Derns from Japan, Guido Petty, Argentina, and Sneiman is at 58 % in fourth on that list. And the next one on your list, Ruan Noccia. I don't know if that's how it's called.

15:47Nokia. Nokia. Apologies. Nokia 3210. He's had a big breakthrough. Yeah. Yeah, and it's worthy of, I think, worthy of bench consideration too. The Tiger Burn one's interesting because of where he's played his best rugby this year. It's probably more in the back row than the second row. Well, if we were to move it quickly, if we are to lock, shall we lock in the locks? Satoshi and Snowman.

16:12Alfie: Satoshi and Snowman are locked in as our starters, yeah. But then I guess, because there's lots of flocks these days, there's four, there's second rows who play in the back row, you'd think that in any other era Tygburn would be one of the best at that but then Peter Stefft-Toy is just the best I know he never plays second row he would probably do that for any other nation but they've got so many good locks he doesn't need to but he's a remarkable case Peter Stefft because as you said earlier he plays zero club rugby he's been at Toyota Verblitz for a couple of years and I think he played his first match just before Christmas in two years so he played like seven tests this season and that's all of his rugby but it's all utterly elite um so he's my i know he wears seven for the box but we know they swap their numbers in the back row so he he would be my six and then i'd have tyg burn as my bench 19 so he could come on at lock or six if we need him yeah okay well so yeah back row then is there anyone here that doesn't have peter steph to toy that might be a good way of doing it in fact peter steph and ardy survey is there anyone that doesn't have those two and they have been in every single one of our World 15 since we've been doing this since 2022.

17:23So that's consistency. Well done them for getting in our right teams. I have both of them with Ardy at 8.

17:28Elgan: Yeah. Elgin? I have Ardy at 8 as well and with Peter Steph I've got the England flanker Guy Pepper in the back row. That's a bit of a curveball.

17:37Alfie: So let's lock in there. So Peter Steph and Ardy asked that because I thought most of us would do. We can put Ardy at 8 if we're happy. He played mostly at 7 this year but we know that he's an elite 8. And also as you say The back row is quite interchangeable. Numbers on shares, man. Exactly. Guy Pepper Elgin. I mean, he's had a great year, great year with Bath, excellent autumn as well with England.

17:59Elgan: Make the case. My case for Guy Pepper was he has lost two games of rugby in 2025, his first Prem match of the year in January for Bath and then the uncapped England game against France at Twickenham at the start of the summer tour. He was huge for Bath as they went on to win the Prem. he's won all of the seven England games he's played not only you know winning the matches and and forcing his way into the starting team ahead of some players that are away with the Lions but also just when they were naming their back row during the autumn I was looking at some of the numbers that he provides and he just offers something different than every other England lock was offering you compare someone like Tom Curry and Sam Underhill excellent players but they sort of do the same thing and Pepper's ability to hit rucks in attack and defense to be involved in the game was way above what the other players were offering so he's he's he's broken out to make his way in wearing six or seven I don't mind that's a great stat love that two defeats all year I guess the caveat is that which we've been saying a bit through England's run is that they haven't been playing the absolute well they have had some of them but they haven't played the box have they they had two Argentina games away which he was part of where both teams were kind of short of players because England didn't have the Lions and Argentina rested some.

19:19But, I mean, beat the All Blacks, yeah. Beat Argentina, beat Aussie. It's a lovely shout. I think I might struggle to get him in ahead of... I mean, here's a list. Ahead of Jack Morgan, of course. You can dig it if you wish. Ahead of Jack Morgan, ahead of Tom Curry. Depending on how you balance your back row, ahead of Satiti. Hooper. I had a phrase in my right, even. Matera's had another couple of great games. I love it as a shout, and I love him as a player. There's a good shout that he could be England's Player of the Year because of what he's done, but I'm not sure he gets into my World 15 quite yet.

19:56I had Tom Curry at seven. Is this like we have an associate membership for the World 15? It's like he can reapply next year, Guy Pepper. He can be part of the wider squad, maybe. I had Tom Curry at seven. I just think he... This whole narrative built on the Lions tour around, you know, he's not playing very well, he's not good enough which was you know we knew that if I remember being in Canberra which is the game 10 days before the first test and he limped out of the stadium and the reason he played that day was because it gave him the full build-up to the first test there was never we talked about this the whole way through didn't we Alfie there was never any doubt in my mind that Tom Curry was going to start that first test because of what he what he you can guarantee what he will deliver on on the big day and one of the the areas of the Lions dock which I wish they'd gone into was the conversation that Andy Farrell had with Tom Curry and Tyke Byrne because there was this conversation around Jack Morgan's playing better than you Tom Curry even said himself Tyke Byrne said I think my best position's second row now Tom Curry's brother out in Argentina was being asked do you think Tom deserves to be picked in the first test and that message got back Ben told tom what everyone's talking about and he just delivered what we all well those of us who never questioned he was going to be in that first test team always knew that he is just this machine he's an extraordinary rugby player with and that we now know he was playing with you know a floppy wrist in his wrist he was in pain all the time and yet you watched him play and you you would never know it and the interventions the kind of series winning interventions that he had i know we yeah there's a lot of talk about the series winning try from hugo keenan and if he doesn't make that tackle on joseph sureliti when the wallabies have got a major overlap the lions lose that test match he set the tone for the whole series with the first hit of the first test and he was he was as effective with the ball in his hand as he was in demolishing australians with the ball I just thought, we talk about the tariff of the Lions, I thought he produced two of his best performances in an international jersey on that tour.

22:11And although he was used differently in November off the bench, I think he delivered and he was given half an hour to cause chaos. And I think he did it just as you would expect him to. And I just don't think there's anyone as impactful in that jersey on the test stage this year as Tom Curry.

22:29Alfie: lock him in i say i'm convinced i'm happy of that and do you know what i know we speak about the lions tour and that it wasn't a vintage lions tour and all that sort of thing that the tom curry and tye burn performance in the first test coupled with the andy farrell presser and the tom curry mix zone after i think it's something we're going to always look back on and at the time we're a bit like yes it's really bad for quotes but it was it was a great moment but that so tom curry was monosyllabic and he was still fizzing from the whole his adrenaline was high tye burn was much more cerebral and he just he he was one who said Andy Farrell took us to one side and said there are basically there are players who've had a better tour than you guys up to now but you're my test match animals I trust you to go and deliver so you you better not let me down and if Andy Farrell says that to you then I can totally see why that would draw out of them the performance that they both delivered but Tom Curry for me at seven is just the guy that's missing well some of the people that are missing out to give some honorable mention so Fraser and McWright's quite high up on lots of the stats.

23:30He won 24 turnovers this season, well, this calendar year, from 14 matches, which is 10 more than the next best, which was Manuel Zuilani from Italy and then Ardi Servais on 11 with Matera, with Curry on 9, with Ben Gunter from Japan. So yeah, McWright's top of rucks here and he's top of tackles made as well. but to me McWright didn't have the Lions series so that's where it works the other way of like he didn't dominate the Lions the Lions dominated him so I'm not sure we can make him our world 15-7 I think the balance of Peter Steph, Tom Curry and Ardy Surveyor you've got, you've just got everything covered there like beyond the physicality you've got the, how good defensively are they Ardy Surveyor, you could guarantee he'll pop up with a game turning turnover on his own line it's just what he does as I said both in fact all three of them with the ball in hand are much certainly Curry and Dutoy are much better with the ball in hand than I think they're often given credit for I think of one of the tries that the box scored in Dublin which in fact their first try the best try of the game before they turn to the scrum which is Dutoy winning the line out of the back and then two phases later he pops up to give the scoring pass so I think you've got a beautiful balance there of ferocity and skill and turnover menace.

24:53Alfie: It is a ridiculously good back row. So Peter Steftotoy, Tom Curry and Ardy Surveyor. It just means bench options. So second row and back row covered. Did we want to put Ty Byrne there? Yeah, so I reckon if he's our lock six, he can go the 19 jersey.

25:09Elgan: 20 jersey, what are we saying? We haven't even mentioned England's breakout number 20 of the year. Henry Pollock. Hey, hang on. Are we picking specialist number 20s are we picking the second best six or seven we might get to a specialist 21 in a little bit we might have mentioned him already but do we do 30 seconds on Pollock like I I would have had him as the breakthrough player of the year this year if it's true to its name and I know Fabian Holland played more matches I think Pollock played something like 180 minutes of test rugby this season but I think you could if you were looking back on this year as a whole you go there are a couple of Pollock moments that stick in your mind and one of them was the Leinster game in Dublin where he was unbelievable and then did the pulse checking celebration which was awesome as well and look he didn't make the Lions test team so maybe that counts against him and he played a bench role for England in the autumn didn't he but it has been a bit of a Pollock year hasn't it in some ways like started in the under 20s and now a lion and going to dominate for hopefully years to come and that's going to oh should we do it for clickbait what was the year what was the word of the year rage bait for 2025 would that be our rage bait pick definitely trigger some South Africans he's just a TikToker wasn't he as a story of the year as a breakthrough player of the year similar to the Pepper conversation you know he's been he's bringing people to the game he's been wicked for all those reasons but I'm not sure he gets in a world 20 then

26:47Alfie: I think I'm the same with what you said about Guy Pepper Alex that I love the shout but I can't quite bring us to put Guy Pepper in our world 20 sorry Pollock in our world 23 so who's your bench back row then Ben Earle Ben Earle's a possibility Ben Earle is actually probably the

27:04Elgan: Satiti would be in the conversation as well Satiti for dynamism they're in a similar category aren't they of like 7 slash 8 how many player of the match has Ben Earl had this year?

27:13Alfie: most games he's been England's best player or won that award

27:17Elgan: I think it's Ben Earl particularly if you're looking at the 20 role no qualms with Ben Earl at all I think perhaps less so now but there was that stage where he was England's starting number 8 and people were still going oh yeah but he's not really a number 8 I just think across the board in the back row he's such a good proposition you miss out on anything if he's at 8, if he's at 7, if he's on the bench I wouldn't have any qualms with Ben Earl in that jersey at all. And he can play 12. He can move there in the second half, couldn't he? I'm happy with Earl. So he's top for carries as an eight, and second for tackles.

27:51And Harry Wilson's another guy who possibly gets an honourable mention. But again, yes, they did some great stuff. They beat South Africa away, but they also had some terrible results, Australia. And I'm not sure you could say that he would have got in the Lions back row in that series, if that makes sense so I don't know if I'm having Harry Wilson at 8 or on our bench Conan I guess is the other one who played the lines but I'm happy I think I'm happy with Earl if everyone else is I think so I think if Etzabeth was in the selection conversation well he's banned isn't he he's banned but if he was in the selection conversation the knock on effect would be that Ty Burns you're 20 that Adam Schneiman would be on the bench yeah possibly which makes it much more imposing.

28:37Edsbeth, look what you've done. You've got yourself out of the World 15 on the ruck and you've got yourself a ban.

28:42Elgan: He needs to do ruck tackle school until he can be available again. But the turnover threat there of Sheehan, Byrne and Earl coming on, that's pretty dangerous, I think. On the floor. That's dynamic, isn't it? I feel like we've agreed on too much here. But I think the back... Should we argue about the backs?

28:59Alfie: Yeah, so the forwards are locked in then. So Ox and Che, Malcolm Marks, Thomas Tertoy, Mara Toje RJ Snowman Peter Steff de Toy Tom Curry and Ardy Saver our starting pack and then Dan Sheehan Ellis Genge Will Stewart Tygburn and Ben Earl the replacements we'll have a quick pause and the other side of that we'll get into the backline Just a quick breather to tell you about today's sponsor Allianz a partner that's all about opening rugby up to more people their support goes way beyond Allianz Stadium through the Allianz Future Fund they've already put over£100 ,000 straight into community clubs across the UK, helping fund projects that bring new people into the game.

29:43Alfie: And with the Allianz Kickstart programme now reaching 5 ,000 schools, thousands of kids are getting their first taste of rugby, some for the very first time. If your local club could do with a bit of a lift, check out the link in the show notes and nominate them for an Allianz Future Fund grant. So Will, you were just saying that amongst the forwards there's a lot of agreement i think the back line's harder isn't it way harder feels to me this year i've got i've got empties places at center i i can't and and some of this is because there's quite a lot of versatility these days so just picking some names out of the hat to kick us off like santi carrera's played 10 for argentina quite a lot and is very high up the charts for stats as a fly half but is a brilliant 15 as well and then you've got someone like damien villemsa who could probably play every position in the back line apart from nine you'd imagine and played regularly at 15 but could easily play 12 was brilliant in wellington against the all blacks at 12 uh you've got will jordan who's off on the wing but plays fullback for the all blacks this year and the nines conversation is interesting to kick us off perhaps because as ever we've had a year where dupont hasn't really play that many games but is still unbelievable when he does so do you want to do the make the case for Antoine DuPont despite barely playing any test rugby I just find this hilarious because DuPont is just such a cheat code so he played four test matches this year in 2025 and among scrum halves he's second for try assists on seven one behind Thomas Williams on eight he is second for break assists level with grant williams and kobus reinach who played 11 tests each and three behind thomas williams who played nine tests and he's also thrown 10 offloads which is three more than anyone else cam roy guard second on seven and then the most hilarious one is his tackle evasion percentage so the amount of times he avoids a tackle is 59 percent out of 237 minutes of rugby only in tests and he's therefore 5 % better than Grant Williams who played 11 test matches.

31:57So I feel like we've had this every year when we've done this, where it's like DuPont is clearly the best player in the world but he hasn't played loads of matches. So can you really put him in when he was missing for most of the season with an ACL?

32:09Alfie: Alex Elgin, does DuPont get in playing four test matches?

32:13Elgan: I think so. As long as he's got air in his lungs and he's got ligaments in his legs, then you have to pick him. He didn't for six months. Well, he didn't for six months, but he does right now when we're having the selection meeting. Therefore, if you're taking on, you know, an Intergalactic World Nations Championship, then you'd have to have him in just because when he has a bad game, it basically means he's done what a nine is supposed to do. And when he has a good game, it means he's nicked the ball five times, scored two tries, set up three more and also taking over the kicking halfway through the game.

32:40Elgan: So if we're ruling him out, I'd go for Cam Roygaard, but I've contractually obliged to pick Tupont at all times. Look over your shoulder here Will At your stats Who is it who's above him? Well that's the point Yeah Thomas Williams Tri-assist Thomas Williams Break-assist Top In a Wales team Yeah That is remarkable He's got He's the least More tri-assists Than any other scum half In a team that can't win a game Might have been the starting Lions 9 Were he not cruelly Ruled out by injury Yeah no This doesn't include Lions tour games This is just Counting tests And so he didn't play in the test Yeah he played one tour game But what I mean is he's not getting massage stats from the Western Force, for example, where he played that one game and pulled his hammy.

33:22And Premiership Player of the Year. Also, in a Gloucester team, they did come fifth, but they're not exactly world-beaters, are they? I had Roy Gard and Reinach and even Gibson Park written down, but I just think it's hard to avoid Thomas Williams. If he's the most impactful scrum half, and he's Premiership Player of the Year, So apply the same argument to Tom Sutoit that he backed up with it on the test stage in the Prem arena. I think it's quite hard to overlook him, isn't it? I feel like it's so hard to put in a player from a team that hardly won a match. They won one game, Wales, in Japan, didn't they?

34:03The second game of that series. We didn't consider Jack Morgan for the back row, despite his decent performances for the Lions off the bench there. I don't know. Is he the best Scrum Half in the world? Well, no, then it's Antoine de Pont,

34:17Alfie: but has he played enough games? It gets us back to that question. I had Cobus Reineck partly, I think, going to the, if in doubt, go for the South African option. Also, because I think when South Africa have had their big games, their match in Eden Park, the Wellington game, like the big test matches, it feels to me that Cobus Reineck is now the nine, which is quite an interesting development for him given that he's later on in his career. And so I had Cobus Reineck, but Scrum Half is definitely a position I think that it seems it's pretty open of the non-Welshman I had Roy Gard ahead of Reineck I think he's had when he plays for New Zealand they're a different team yeah agreed that's true and Grant Williams comes in for South Africa and they've got quite a few different really good options yeah well Reineck and Williams played 11 games each and probably quite a lot in the same 23 so again it's the South African thing of they're all at such a similar standard which is why they're so much better than everyone else is that it's difficult to go he's better than him like they're both just very good aren't they Williams and Reineck but as you say Reineck played in the biggest games he started the biggest games I think if there was a World Cup final this year in South Africa were in it I think he would have been their starting nine wouldn't he but have we got us have we but then it's I mean we haven't even really gone for Gibson Park either who again it's the Irish thing of not had the best year as Ireland but he was the nine for the Lions and won a series would he make our bench would Thomas Williams make our bench?

35:40I think well it depends what the balance of the bench is but I think Grant Williams might make it because then he could cover wing yeah I like that okay

35:49Alfie: so anyone so I mean it feels like so my order my order then to put a stake in the ground would be Rynak starting Williams bench both South Africans so we both went Rynak you guys both went Roygaard didn't you if we weren't going casting vote looks like well next we both said Rynak didn't we so So we're disregarding Dupont Well Despite Elgin's fantastic pitch Could he make his comeback from injury Onto our bench Like he did with Toulouse I don't know

36:23Elgan: He'd go over 10 off the bench as well Well we might have some good 10s to talk about in a second We need to make a decision What are we going to do? We got ahead of ourselves saying that the forward pack was easy to select Are you very keen to get Tomos in here somewhere? Alex? quite keen but no I can be persuaded I mean I I just feel that he has performed so well he at the very least deserves to be part of the conversation which I didn't feel he was going to be and if he's been if he's performed as well as he has and he's preemper of the year he has to be in the conversation I would quite like

36:55Alfie: the listener reaction when we've got as many Welsh players in our starting team as Irish and English

37:01Elgan: I'll take this one I'll swing the Welsh delegates behind Thomas Williams if required oh no this is getting more confusing I think that's made it worse actually. I think it's not unreasonable to have Reinach and Roygaard as the two. Reinach and Roygaard? It's not unreasonable, like in whichever order. The problem is I would, on the bench, I think Grant Williams is more valuable because he can play wing.

37:22Alfie: Well, let's go Cam Roygaard starting because I think you're a bang on Alex in that the All Blacks are a different side when he's playing to when he's not. I know Finlay Christie is a decent player. Cortes Ratema is a decent player. But I think the drop off for them is massive. so maybe in terms of his influence let's give it to Roygaard and then let's go are we going Grant Williams because of his options on the bench I think Reineke has probably had a better year but Grant Williams has our bench option I'd say so yeah okay versatility wins in 2025 what about fly half two obvious options here so to me this is only between Sasha Feinberg, Umgumazulu and Finn Russell yeah agreed and so let's start the case for Finn Russell is he had his moment didn't he He had his moment.

38:07He gave Bath the thing, the Holy Grail they've been chasing since 1996, the Prem title. He was unbelievable in that season, last season, and incredible in the final to the point where he even thought when he'd broken the line to give Max Ojooma the ball to score a try because he thought it'd be nice for a young Bath lad to have a try in the final. Then he's the 10 for the Lions when they win the series. A couple of those passes in that first test were incredible. but then you look at Sasha Feinberg and Gomazulu and he's probably produced the standout performance of the whole year and not just of the year but

38:43Alfie: of a long time has put it alongside that Carter performance in the 05 line taking 37 points on his own against Argentina was ridiculous and the one unbelievably hilarious one was where he cross-kicked to himself and scored and like He's changed the game for the box because they've often gone for someone like Pollard, who's very... he's a facilitator, he's very calm, and he's a goal kicker. We know all about the clutch. But Libok behind him was not quite as trusted, but now they've got a guy who can kick his goals and execute all the skills out wide as well. So, yeah, I think this comes down to the Lions tariff a bit, doesn't it?

39:26Does Russell winning a Lions series at 10 mean as much as Sasha Feinberg and Gumsulu being the best player in the best team in the world who've hardly lost all year? I think you're right, there's only two. If you look at everyone, just to cover around the world, England haven't, in the past 12 months, England haven't known who their 10 is. Ireland don't know who their 10 is. Australia don't know who their 10 is. New Zealand, chop and change between McKenzie and Bodenbarrett waiting for Moanga to come home from Japan. In France, the 10 is a Jalbert's class, but it's a different role as Elgin has often outlined on the pod.

40:05So yeah, it is these two. I mean, they're both in the 23, let's say, because we probably need a 10. But who would you want to start and who would you want to finish?

40:13Elgan: If Russell doesn't start, it'd be quite stretched to have him on the bench in the age of versatility, wouldn't it? Whereas you feel like Feinberg and Omazulu could come on almost anywhere and not look out of shape. Well, so we've got Grant Williams locked in, haven't we? So we do need some sort of fly half cover, don't we? because I've got, well get onto him, but I've got on my bench, I've got Andre Esterhaisen as the ultimate hybrid. So I'm basically having a 6-2 and a 5-3 at the same time because he can play 12 and back row. So that's where I do have a slot for a 10 and Russell would therefore wear the 23 jersey.

40:45But we might look at someone like Damien Willimsa if he doesn't make our starting team and go, wow, he's the perfect 23. Or Carreras. Even if he does make the starting team. Carreras, that's a good shout. And is it brutal for Russell therefore if he doesn't make 10 to not even make the 23 of the best players in the world in this year. It's brutal, yeah.

41:04Alfie: You're allowed to do it. So you're thinking Sasha then as the starter? I think I am saying Sasha as the starter. Okay.

41:13Elgan: Elgin, do you think Sasha? I think Sasha as the starter. I think the way that he can play like the nuts and bolts of a 10 but also run like a free-flowing outside centre, I think his ceiling is so high.

41:25Alfie: Okay, Sasha Feingberg, Ungomazulu. locked in do we want to get onto the bench now or is that going to come up in the rest of our discussion because the balance of our outside backs is probably going to dictate when we were chatting before centres was a position that I think we were all struggling on and I think there's a wider point here about particularly the role of the outside centre in that I think the age of your Brian O'Driscoll your Will Greenwoods having a 13 that was your absolute X-factor game-breaking player Jonathan Davis I think Jonathan Davis is probably the most recent one and he's now retired but you look at a lot of the options now and it I think it's probably where rugby is particularly where international rugby is is that that's just not what a 13 does anymore there's not the space the game's not played in that way but I think it makes it harder to pick a 13 and pick your centres for something like this because actually there's a lot of good centres but there's not that Brian O'Driscoll there's not that player that is just carving teams open and cutting through and the Rolls-Royce kind of 13 Yeah, exactly.

42:25Alfie: They are becoming more nuts and bolts players that are good in the defensive line, can drift and important in that channel from a defensive point of view, can help stitch everything else together. So, centres, I put down Lenny Katow as my 12 and Jesse Creel as my 13. I think Creel is the epitome of what I've just been saying. Not a flashy 13, but really solid. 7 out of 10 pretty much every week. Regularly been playing for the box, he'd been the best team in the world. But what do you think centre-wise? I've had De Lende at 12. OK, yeah, yeah. I mean, De Lende, just his... You know, he's got good hands, but the blend of the power and the panache that he can bring at 12, if you're...

43:03Whoever you pick at 10, if we've got Sasha at 10, to have De Lende outside is just... We always used to talk about Marcus Smith playing his best rugby for Quinns when he had Esther Hazen outside him, because he always had an option who would break the game line, and that's what Esther Hazen... That's what De Lende brings for the box, as well as having good hands. I remember talking to Fraser Dingwall about the kind of identica 12. Who would you bring together to make the perfect 12? And he named three players, Jordy Barrett, Matt Gitto and Damien De Lende. Well, we can't pick Matt Gitto even though he's still playing in America.

43:38Jordy Barrett hasn't. He's been injured for a bit. He hasn't had his premium year, but De Lende has. I think he's still at the forefront of inside centres. So I'd go him at 12. The best that about him, looking at my sheet, which again you think, man, that's so impressive, is as a 12, his gain line success is 73%, which means that basically three quarters of the time he carries, he makes it over the gain line. That's ridiculous. If you're Sasha and you're in a bit of a hole, it's like Damien straight over the gain line, quick ball, bang. And actually, interestingly, second on that list is Tom Jordan from Scotland.

44:20From nine tests, 68.4 % gain line success. And after him, it's Andre Esthais and then Menoncello and then Kane and Moody. So, yeah, I mean, maybe some honourable mentions. Hugh Jones was picked in the World Rugby Team of the Year at 13, wasn't he? I mean, Moody, Deportaire for France. But France had a bit of a sort of different summer tour, didn't they? Elgin with not bringing their best team down to New Zealand. Sueli, we've talked about it a lot on this pod and through the Lions I just don't think that he was used very well

44:49Alfie: He goes back to the point that we were just making though of 13s these days you don't impact the game in the way that they probably want Sueli to Which is maybe why they should move him And then Iketal, yeah, he's been very good since he's come up to Exeter hasn't he? But again I'm looking at that Australian performance in Brisbane and bits of Melbourne where they were better but you're like, were the Lions looking at Iketal and going what are we going to do? whereas if D 'Alende was at 12 you've got to really think about that so as someone who had zero people written down for midfield I'm happy to go with D 'Alende if everyone else is

45:23Elgan: D 'Alende, fine choice I think it just the epitome of how silly the spring box can be is the fact that Estehaisen doesn't even start for them when he probably wears 12 for every other team in the world and I think he'd even be perhaps top three to start 12 in this team as well one of the other players I had who normally plays at 12 but has played at 13 as well was Santiago Chocobarres who's not only been ever present at 12 for Argentina quite a solid fun option at 12 but also part of that Toulouse team winning a top 14 final as well and he has played 13 as well so maybe if you had him at 13 outside whether it's D 'Alende or Esterhausen you've got a fair amount of ball carrying going up midfield there Well let's go D 'Alende 12, 13?

46:07I mean I'm quite enjoying Chocobarres we had Montosio last year at Hooker it's nice to have an Argentinian in there because I feel like in the world game they still don't quite get the respect that they deserve for the results they pick off do they? Sounds like a man who shared a long coffee with Gus Pichot last month That's true I'll start banging the desk in a minute sipping mate tea Yeah, I think it's a great shout from Al Gilmer because I had Hugh Jones written down but only because he was in the world rugby team of the year I wouldn't want to sit here and really argue. But Ringrose would have played in the Lions if he hadn't self-reported the concussion.

46:45Yeah, and I think Ujo did really well when he was asked to play. I think he played very well on that tour. But if you're going De Lende, then it's very easy to go De Lende and Creole because it feels like they come as a partnership. So the only one I would sort of countenance, I think, to break that up would be Chocobarres.

47:02Alfie: All right, well, I'm happy with Chocobarres. To further your point about we're not quite sure what 13 is, just looking back on who we've picked on years gone by at 13, or let's do both midfielders since 2022. So our 2022 team, we had Dante and Ficou, because they'd won the Grand Slam that year, France. In 2023, we had Jordi Barrett and Waseya Naikalevu. And I think there was a debate there about Bundayaki, who had an amazing World Cup, but we just thought Barrett is just a better 12. Then last year, we had Damien D 'Iolande and Rico Ioane, but Ioane's hardly played this year at all, has he? so and then on our sort of long list for last year we had people like Tupolotu who maybe didn't quite have the year he could have done Menoncello Hugh Jones Creel Aki Fiku Barrett yeah so Chaka Barres why not let's have some club form Menoncello sounds like he's off to Toulouse but if he played if he could have gone on Lions tour for example if he played in a different team you just wonder these massive test matches yeah how much more you'd see him on the biggest stage I think Leicester Fanganuku has filled in at 13 he was being picked at 13 ahead of Rico Ioani for a lot this year played really well different style of 13 to Jesse Creel Kane and Moody's played a bit at 13 as well

48:14Elgan: I forgot to mention my wild card of Calavetti Revuvu as well Crystal and Fiji but I've considered him I've gone straight back to Chocobares but considering him

48:25Alfie: I'm aware he exists OK well let's go D 'Alende and Chocobares then as our centres which Chocobares was definitely not someone I've coming into the studio That's what it's all about. We were going to be selecting, but that's what these selection meetings are all about. So into the back three then, Louis Bielbierre, everyone nailed on. He's the Rugby Writers Pat Marshall Award winner, so how could we go against the membership of that fine institution? Yeah, so Bielbierre, the other winger. So this is an interesting one, isn't it? Because in normal years where Will Jordan just goes around scoring loads of tries basically every time he plays, you'd have him but the All Blacks haven't had a good year really by their own incredibly high standards and he's played 15 all season you probably wouldn't say that Penneau was quite at the level he has been Elgin I mean he got quite unceremoniously dropped during the Six Nations

49:19Elgan: didn't he yeah Jopter is I mean the problem is he has this such insouciant attitude that no one quite knows I mean even he looks like he doesn't know what he's going to do on the field and it Sometimes it counts against him when matches like at Twickenham where France kind of lose their heads a bit. But equally, his tries have dried up a bit for Bordeaux, whereas I think Louis Biel-Bierre has scored 34 tries in 30 games this year. He just continues to steamroller over the trial line at all times. Test-wise, Biel-Bierre is 10 tries in 8 matches. And there was a period between January and April where he scored in every single match he played in.

49:54I think it was 11 matches in a row for club and country. Remarkable.

49:57Elgan: Eight in the Six Nations, equaling a record as well. Yeah, and Champions Cup winner. I mean, Bielberi, I think.

50:04Alfie: I think he's nailed on. He's one of those players that I think, a bit like an Oxen Che or Thomas Tartore, something like that, that most people, when they sit down to do this, will have him on the wing. Only French player, I think, probably going to be in our 23. It looks that way. Other winger? So I've gone Tommy Freeman here. But I think there's quite a few options. I just think Tommy Freeman played himself into a position where he's so key for England if he's fit. he's had a really good year again almost similar to the point i made about ellis genge that heading into the lions tour for a long time in the way that we thought andrew porter would be the starting loose head and genge played so well he played his way in tommy freeman i think a lot of us probably viewed it with matt hanson and james lowe and injuries played a part there i know but to end up starting for the lions he is such an all-round rugby player these days such a high class operator that i thought he was good value for starting in this team but what do you think i think name check again to Leicester Fanganuka because he's just so dangerous but for me I think it's Tommy Freeman or Max Jorgensen who I thought I just thought the Wallabies lost him at a time when they needed him to a bad injury I thought he was outstanding for Australia in the summer and he's a young player who's I think going to be just going to be extraordinary so I'd like I had him listed but ultimately I think Tommy Freeman 5-5 the Six Nations Lions starting wing which completely justified so that puts him ahead of all the other wings from all the four home nations I yeah I I think Tommy Freeman with Max Jorgensen as a deserved name check So no Will Jordan or are we thinking about him as a 15?

51:44Well I've I've had Damian Willems at 15 Okay okay so I this is where I want to make my pitch for Santi Carreras because I just think he always often plays 10 for Argentina but we know him in the Prem as a 15 and I know I'm trying to put him in my starting team here but one of the great bench performances at Murrayfield where they turned around that game out of nowhere and all of it was him. And he was great at Twickenham. He's in the same role. I just love him as a player and what he delivers in club and country colours. I assume he'll keep cracking on in 2026 with Bath. I mean, what a signing that has been for them to nick him.

52:26But maybe he's a natural 23 on our bench because as you are going to say next, I'm sure Alex, Damien Valemse is almost one of these cheat code players who's a Swiss army knife in the back line, isn't he? Yeah. Will Jordan has a phenomenal try scoring record and he's always a threat. But Valemse is just as close to the complete all-rounder at the moment as I think there is in the game. We mentioned earlier, he tends to play 15, but he played inside centre in that record win against the All Blacks in Wellington. And he could step in at 10 if required and has done. For me, he's been the most consistently outstanding full-back across the world this year.

53:09Elgan: Yeah, I'll go with Lehmster at 15 and I think I'd consider Carreras in the 23 jersey as well.

53:15Alfie: Okay, so Tommy Freeman, Damien Willemser, we're happy to lock them in alongside Louis BLBRA as our back three. That's a great back three. It is a great back three. Brings us on to the bench then to finish off. So just as a reminder, so far on the bench we've got Sheehan, Genge, Stewart, Burn Earl, Grant Williams. What do you want to do with those final two bench spots? Well, this is where we go, is it 5-3 or 6-2? It's both because you have Esterhagen. So if you genuinely, if you were to pick Andre Esterhagen as almost the most symbolic selection of the year, of versatility, of 6-2s, of hybrid players, I wouldn't be it was Will's idea but I wouldn't be against it I think he's had a really good year as I was going to say he would start I think even in the All Blacks they would probably find room for him maybe play Geordie Barrett somewhere else he'd be getting every team in the world apart from South Africa so what the box has done is reinvent him to send him into the train with the forwards as he spoke to us about the other week on the pod I couldn't yeah I'm up for that Love it and also it's quite as you said symbolic of the year we've had where we'll have an 8 who can play 12 with Null, a 12 who can play back row in Esterhazen, a 9 who can play wing in Grant Williams, and then maybe a 23 who can play basically everywhere else, which is Carreras, right?

54:33Alfie: Yeah, I was going to say you need fly half cover there, but then is that Carreras? You don't necessarily, because Valimsa could step up and play 10.

54:41Elgan: Crucially, though, and this is a very crucial point, Esterhazen has to wear 21, not 22, because if he wears 22, he's covering only 12. he wears 21 I'm just looking at Alfie Ushita he has to wear 21 I'm ending it now for you thank you Carreras as a fly half so this is test stats is top for tri-assists 8 tri-assists in 12 tests at 10 and he beat 18 defenders as a 10 I mean Sasha Feinberg 41 by the way in that same category defenders beaten in 11 tests and then Carreras break assists. Finn Russell 21, Bodeabout 15, Carreras 13. So he's right in the mix of all these stats as a 10. I think if that was to be locked in as our bench, the one theme of it would be that you couldn't call it a bomb squad style bench in the sense that the players who we picked are of a certain style.

55:39They're not going to come on and scare people with their ferocity and intensity. there's energy and dynamism all over the place there there's some power in Estahazen obviously but I just think Sheehan, Genge, Stuart, Byrne Earl, Estahazen Carreras, Grant Williams there's a theme there which is we've thrown everything at you for 55 minutes and now we're going to up the pace up the dynamism and we're going to run you off the park that's the theme of that bench isn't it yeah it's not it's not a kind of we're gonna monster you to death we're gonna we're gonna outplay you outrun you i tell you what what would we was a bit late in the pod to do this but if we were really 2025ing it we would put all of those people to start and and hold back our 15s for the bench for the last half an hour yeah you'd switch it around so then we could have ox marks do toy etoji peter steph all on the bench like and actually bum squad yeah uh i think we've

56:42Alfie: I think we've locked it in there, fellas. So this is the team we've gone for then. Ox and Che, Malcolm Marks, Thomas de Toye is our front row. Mauro Toje and RG Snaman in the second row. Peter Steff de Toye, Tom Curry and Ardi Svea complete our pack. Cam Roygaard and Sasha Feinberg, Umgoma Zulu, Scrum Half, Fly Half. In the centres, Damien D 'Alende and Santiago Chocobarez. The Wings, Louis BLBRA and Tommy Freeman. Damien Willemser is our fullback. And then our bench, Dan Sheehan, Ellis Genge, Will Stewart, Tyg Byrne, Ben Earl, Andre Estehais and Grant Williams and Santi Carreras. I also feel roughly looking at that, it's kind of a reflection of the international rugby we've seen this year dominated by the Springboks what have we got?

57:25Alfie: Eight South Africans I think three English starting, a couple of Irish on the bench who have gone backwards, probably France would be the only team you'd say that given they won the Six Nations might feel they're not represented in the way that they should be but they're difficult aren't they? Because their summer tour is always basically a second and third string team.

57:44Elgan: In a normal year you'd be considering Aldrete as the number eight but he hasn't had a great year. DuPont's missed most of the season there. They're two totems and they've both had not great seasons and that's impacted the whole team as a result. Who's the most unlucky? I think Finn Russell's very unlucky to not make any place in the 23 having won a treble and a line series from 10. Tough on Finn. You knocked him off the bench mate. sorry Finn I like Finn and he came on the pod as well and you've mucked him off well

58:16Alfie: what can we say so there we go that is our team no doubt all of you are currently feet up eating your mince pies that you've got left over from Christmas and think that's absolutely perfect but if for some reason you happen to disagree with us the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk Scotland fans you can get in your accusations of anti-Scottish bias towards us there. Good work lads. Enjoyed that. I think we've done a fairly decent... I suppose the other thing would be no Aussies either, who haven't had a great year but none in the 23-wats. Tom Wright I think would have been in the conversation if he hadn't picked up that ACL injury for full-back.

58:53Yeah, I mean two Irish, Sheeran and Byrne. Amongst the bench as well. No starters, no Gibson Park. I mean, no Doris this whole year as well. He was an R8 last year. That's been a blow for them, hasn't it? But there we go them's the breaks sorry everybody

59:08Alfie: good stuff there you go get in touch with us let us know what you make of it it's always a good bit of fun but hopefully it's a fair reflection on a lot of the international rugby that we've seen this year we will leave it there have a wonderful new year we will see you in 2026 where we're going to be back with you next week probably not on Monday we hopefully have a little trip planned to kick off the year so that will be coming your way on Tuesday or Wednesday keep your eyes peeled for that this has been The Ruck the journalist's rugby podcast from the Times and the Sunday Times before you go we just want to shine a light on the great work Allianz is doing behind the scenes to support the game we all love.

59:41Alfie: We talk a lot on the RUC about Premiership stars and England internationals, but every one of those journeys starts somewhere, usually on a freezing morning at a local club with volunteers, hand-me-down kit and a belief that rugby can genuinely change lives. Allianz gets how important those places are, which is why they're launching a special edition of the Allianz Future Fund just for Ruck listeners. They're offering grants of£500 to£1 ,000 to help local clubs become more inclusive, more sustainable and better set up for the next generation. Whether it's new kit, safer facilities or giving young players the space to grow into tomorrow's heroes, this is a real chance to make a difference.

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