Parling's push: love it or hate it?

0:00Alfie: Today's episode of The Ruck is brought to you by Allianz. They've been part of the rugby family for over 13 years now, backing the game at every level from the muddy grassroots pitches to the biggest stages in the sport. And their partnership with the home of England rugby, Allianz Stadium, isn't just about putting a name on the building. It's about backing the future of the game and the generations still to come. We're proud to have them on board. Let's get into it.

0:40Alfie: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. I'm Alfie Reynolds. Busy show coming up in the company of Charlie Morgan and Will Kelleher. Morning, lads. You all right? All good, thank you. We've come dressed quite differently today, Charlie and I, haven't we? Yeah, I've just noticed that.

0:56Charlie: You've taken a layer off to reveal that.

0:57Alfie: have you been thinking about the fact that the pod's now filmed so maybe yeah and then and i've

1:02Charlie: forgotten that it's been no i've forgotten that it's been he's got oasis stash this is good so i

1:07Alfie: had the it this morning i never used to have to worry about this i was thinking i was like did i wear this top last week on the pod and are people going to notice and i was like who cares they are now getting the comments is this no but you could be like humble with it like kate middleton where it's like oh look at her re-wearing stuff like a legend well you think i'll get applauded for that yeah i think you would yeah yeah recycling your wardrobe yeah well welcome along everyone as i say what's that what's a start for you a reminder for you as well that you can now watch the pod on youtube the time sport youtube channel is where uh the show gets put up as well as listening wherever you get your pods from charlie you were at tottenham yeah weekend i was yeah dizzy rascal

1:44Charlie: absolutely bossed it as will predicted and it was it was a lot of fun it's quite kind of quite error strewn but got touchy at the end which is exactly what you want from those two teams and

1:53Alfie: had a dramatic finish too so i was in cardiff and i think there's a point to be made by the way on so on the pod before i maybe get into the games uh we'll look back on the prem we're going to be getting into the jeff parley instincts that has arguably been the story of the weekend we're going to have a chat with will collier as well times columnist and also playing his rugby out in cast they play northampton this coming weekend in the last 16 of the champions cup but there was a point i think this weekend just gone gents of the three big showpiece games back to back you You know, Gloucester-Leicester-Villa Park, Bristol-Quins in Cardiff, Saracens-Northampton at Tottenham.

2:27Alfie: Big crowds, big showpiece, great events. And then all the teams that put them on went and lost. It was a full set of away wins across the board, wasn't it? Which is not unique to this weekend, but it's rare. And it's a funny one, isn't it? And I think we probably get to this point each season and say a similar point. But rugby fans don't really know what they want, do they? Because there'll be plenty of people across social media being like, God, why do we just not play at home and have it done properly and get our own fans easier on trains and all that stuff? And others go, why aren't we trying to grow the sport more and everything else?

2:58And we'll come on to the Jeff Parling thing, as you said, which was all part of it, which neatly encapsulated rugby struggles in one 30-second clip, didn't it? But I find that the take on the side of let's just keep things at home, I think, come on, don't just take this weekend as one example of it not working.

3:16Alfie: And also, when we've been to Bristol before and spoken to them about this sort of thing, they haven't said directly that the result doesn't matter. But they do have a bigger picture thing in mind here. Of course they wanted to win. Of course they would have been gutted, particularly because of where that leaves them in terms of chasing the top four. But there is a bigger thing here. And despite the result, despite the game, actually, it's a pretty poor game in all honesty. I would say. The entertainment, the way they packaged it up, everything they do around it was great. Yeah, and I think if more clubs took the bigger picture view than the week-to-week view, then we'd all be in a better place.

3:52So I think actually, despite the fact that it might have been more of a struggle for fans to get to some of these grounds or a longer journey or some of the stadiums weren't as full as they might have been, we've got to wait for this to keep building over time. and like we were talking to Prem Rugby last week, they've got a plan to play 10 of these big games across the season in the next three, four years, maybe by 2030 to get to that many and that will include the final, possibly some neutral semi-finals, which a lot of people on social media are annoyed about as well. I don't like that. Do you not like that?

4:24No. Should we talk about that then? Should we do a bit of that?

4:26Charlie: I just think with the 10-team league, that's what we're talking about with the 10-team league potentially sort of now maybe feeling its age and that staleness potentially setting in a little bit, I think that would be really dangerous to essentially mean that those top two spots aren't worth as much as the third and fourth spots out of a 10-team league. In France, they have the neutral. It's the same thing. In France, they have the top six, don't they? And then they go through to neutral semifinals off the back of that barrage and the benefit for those top two is the weak rest. you wouldn't have that in the prem I do get the point of it being a showpiece and semi-finals always seem to deliver don't they as far as tension and actually quality a lot of the time as well but I just think it's dangerous to mitigate those top two spots because you're almost saying that you're devaluing a lot of the season that goes before that So to pull back slightly if people didn't know or haven't read the pieces that we've written about this.

5:31The idea would be by about 2030 or maybe a bit beyond that, which is at the point where they want to have 12 teams in the league, not just 10. The idea, and they've talked about this for a few years now, it's not just something they've come up with. I remember we were looking back, we wrote about this about four years ago as well, that this has been a long-term plan. So the idea would be to take the semifinals as opposed to, say, being at the Franklin's Gardens and the Rec, you'd take them both to the same stadium somewhere else, a bigger ground, maybe Everton is somewhere they suggested, or Villa Park perhaps as a 50 odd thousand something a bit bigger that but not ridiculously enormous maybe playing them on the same day or like a Friday Saturday weekender or Saturday Sunday weekender kind of thing and using it as a bit of a festival of rugby a bit like the London doubleheader used to be although that had problems with the ground never feeling like it was actually full at one point it was all sort of drift in for the Saracens London Irish game and drift out as quins wasps is finishing whatever else so that's that's the idea and lots of people have made that point that charlie's made of if you're removing that sort of like cachet of coming first and second and therefore having your home semi-final and you're removing relegation and you're removing a race for top eight because that's quite boring to be honest to get eight people into the champions cup there's a lot of this bit of the season that is kind of irrelevant like if we were to look at it now if you were to say there would be neutral semi-finals this season i know it's not we've still got what five games six games to go haven't we in the prem but you go saints and bath are going to be massively unlikely now to finish out those top places but you'd say would some people be pulling up the handbrake already but then on the flip side you might say would that benefit someone going for a double perhaps going deeper in europe if they have less concentration on the champions

7:18Alfie: cup yeah and we did see it last year a bit didn't we with bath that knew they had top four in a top spot pretty much wrapped up so they rotated their team in terms of going for the challenge cup as well i agree with what both of you are saying i think the value in having home field advantage for the semi-final is massive at the moment and that is something worth fighting for and i don't like the idea if they were to do it as a double header i think if you're going to have neutral venues for the semi-finals they have to stand alone in their own right separate neutral venues i think so i don't think as a double they wouldn't fill that would they at least to start with well And therefore, I don't think you do it.

7:50Alfie: But I think it takes away, like it's a prem semifinal. Double headers are great events, but they always have that feel of, as you say, oh, we'll turn up a bit late for the first game. Or I'm really interested in the second one. So do you know what, Will? Or we'll dash it. I just think you have people coming and going. It doesn't have the feel of it. And also, if it's like, well, last year, the Bath-Bristol semifinal at the rec, great occasion, local rivals. Well, all of a sudden, you might have that game. You say, oh, no, you've all actually got to go up to Liverpool to play this. I guess the other thing too to play devil's advocate and go the other side is that is it now too predictable that the home side wins?

8:28So we know we trot out this stat every single season but the third place team has never won the Prem in history and only twice of the fourth team won it. And some of them have made the final but they've not then won. And it's like do you prefer that? Do you think that's better because largely then the best team in the season wins the league? or would you prefer it that it's a bit more random at the end of the season and then there'd be lots of other fans who go I don't want playoffs at all I would just like to end the season like we did in 1996 with Bath beating Leicester on the final day of the season lifting a little cup on their own with no celebration no trophy lift nothing I want it to be old school as possible and have like a

9:05Charlie: Premier League style first pass the post system do you think with sanitized though without that do you think we really miss without maybe realising the drama of a title race? Because we don't get that, do we? And we sort of get the jockeying for position. And what you said just then, Alfie, reminded me of the fact you almost want Bath at the end of the season because they're going to play there. I know the second team is very good, but they're going to really rotate if they're assured of first place. And you get those mad results. Like, I remember Saracens have been pumped sort of by 50 points previously, haven't they?

9:37Charlie: Because they've absolutely switched everybody around. and it's just a weird old finish to the season. Just to sort of look at what the... Because this is an idea borrowed from the top 14. And they've... So last year, for example, they had the semifinals on consecutive days, both in Lyon. So I guess you would make it sort of a festival of a weekend, wouldn't you? That's what they're sort of aiming at. And I guess we're okay with it in the Champions Cup, aren't we? And I know you'll have people shouting at their YouTubes. Is that how it works? I'm not sure. But they'll be going, Hang on, but look, Lentz to get into the semi-final, they just play at the home stadium, don't they?

10:11So it's sort of not really. And like Toulouse have played. I wonder where the biggest stadium is near us. It's also in Toulouse. It's that kind of thing. So they've got to be careful, I think. You're right, Charlie, because you can have all of these grand visions, but if you do too many of them too quickly, you start losing the people that are the diehards, the traditionalists, but, which I think encapsulates all the things that we're probably going to talk about on this pod rugby it doesn't know what it wants because it has a very small band of traditional fans who would actually prefer things to have never changed since 1993 and they're like offended that anything could modernize or change and then there are people who are going way too far who want it to almost be like the hundred or like the IPL or something or the NFL or American sports and everyone goes man that's way too like sickly sweet and horrible for me there is a middle ground there is something in the middle between those two things right and I would like us to reward the ambition of these people who are taking things to bigger grounds having ideas trying to innovate trying to change things rather than just continuing to have this tiny little niche sport that only quite a few people are interested in I've got no problem

11:26Alfie: with them considering it and looking at it I think you have to do it in a position where you know it's going to be a success and right now I think there are too many questions and reasons for why you shouldn't do it and I think if you are going to do it whether it's double header or if it's standalone events you have to know that you're going to sell them out definitely and right now they're not I don't think or get close to because I guess if Mark Evans is on this pod as the man who created the big game with Quinns is that you have to build it over a few years and that's what Bristol hope will happen with their big day out in Cardiff and that's what Sarri's hope will keep happening with Tottenham and if the Slater Cup thing keeps happening at Villa Park or somewhere else you're never going to nail it in year one unless you give away loads of free tickets and then you're hiding to nothing anyway so you've got to build it over consecutive seasons haven't you yeah and it links quite nicely to the parling situation which we'll come on to in just a sec I wanted to pose a question to you both because Greg emailed us the ruck at the times.co.uk and he was talking about how these big games and it was the home teams that had been losing them over the weekend for Bristol has moving cost them a top four finish he thinks for them it has for Saris he thinks less so but what do we reckon Saris is obviously less so they were in a slump and

12:36Charlie: it was really odd actually to hear Mark McCall say he was really proud of a performance that came in a losing cause but it made sense given how they'd gone against Bath the previous weekend for Bristol I think it's probably more to do with those two lock injuries but Joe Batley and Pedro Rubiola have really hurt them and they just generally looked flat but yeah even losing to that Quinn's team is that's an aberration for them even because I was at the Leicester game and impressed by them and they just they looked really inaccurate didn't they.

13:05Alfie: It's been a really bad couple of games post Six Nations for Bristol when you consider that all their other top four rivals have all won both their games and Bristol have lost both of them and now all of a sudden you're looking at the table and it's what two they're two wins off which is doable but actually with six games still to go is like that's a bit of a it's a small mountain to climb isn't it and you think of all the good bristle have done this season with the amount of injuries they had early on in the campaign and we've all been saying how brilliant they've done to be right in the top four mix with the resilience of that team and you feel in a couple of weekends bang bang they're not totally out of it but their playoff chances all of a sudden look a hell of a lot more slim in in

13:43Charlie: may they've got um hosting saracens traveling to northampton hosting bath and i think that's that's the sort of run that is key. They've got to win at least two of those, haven't they? Yeah, they've got hosting Gloucester and then travelling to Newcastle, which then they'd hope to win both of those before that. But that's probably the make-or-break run. I just think it's, I thought maybe pre-Six Nations that Bristol were like the story of the season. Because I know lots of teams, Quinns have said they've had millions of injuries, Gloucester have had millions of injuries, Bristol have had millions of injuries.

14:14But with Bristol, you looked at just the whole spine of their team. around that Christmas period was out like 9, 10 and their game breakers like Ibetoye and people like that. Re-Sammet for a bit. Re-Sammet for a little bit I mean the 9 and 10 we mentioned Randall and McGinty for the a massive block of time and so I thought for them to have come through that kind of first couple of blocks and ended up in the top four was remarkable really and and actually lots of people go yeah look how deep their squad is depth depth depth whatever but I think maybe Charlie's bang on that the people they didn't lose were the people who are really important like Batley and Rubiolo who were smacking people up front whereas now they've lost them and it's almost like you can have all your zamats you like but it's the Quinns situation we've talked about endlessly which is the front five is the thing that gives you the go forward to be able to play the nice stuff out the back and it's just ironic isn't it that like now all the stars are

15:10Alfie: back and they've dropped off their form again and it was also ironic as well that you looked at that quinn's team on paper and when it was named i saw a few people saying oh i was really looking forward to seeing marcus smith or even ellie kildunk she wasn't playing in the women's game which happened before that was a doubleheader and looked at the quinn's team and i'll be i thought yeah bristol win this easily now it's probably going to be quite one-sided and then all of a sudden this quinn's team that have been absolutely awful all season like where was that grit and fight all season uh shout out to alex don brunt i thought he was excellent i think he looked he

15:38Charlie: looks when he gets when he gets it right in the prem he looked he looks like a real real force in that league and actually he'd been sneaky good for England and Argentina as well. So things trending pretty well for him. It was just a minimum requirement, wasn't it? For the season they've had, Quinn. We've been saying that for weeks though, innit? Yeah, I know. And they finally have done it. And you think, well, there you go. That, to me, shows that Jason Gilmore, now he's been given the head coach's job, has got something. Like, if that can be a minimum requirement of fight, grit, spirit, heavy hitting in defense like Bradley and guys like that were whacking people weren't they you just think that's kind of that is the baseline and we talked about that with England in the way they would meek against Ireland it's that enduring thing in rugby isn't it of like the absolute minimum is just to go around be full of spirit and bang people and how far that can get you yeah actually yeah yeah and it was I think that's a good sign for Quinns because as you say there's a lot of people who are by no means household names in that team whatsoever like you look at the bench and he's massively inexperienced but you think that they're always always the frustration with Quinns is that they've got two of those in them a season and then they've got 80 % of the rest of it is rubbish yeah like they've beaten Saracens like that this season they've beaten La Rochelle away this season they've beaten Bristol and Cardiff this season and you think I don't understand you like we've said it before but it's copy and paste it's like you're not serious people it's that quote isn't it from succession yeah but look i think that was a massively important sign for quinn's wasn't it to as the sort of line in the sand start of their new era like i met jason gilmore last week and he's a very impressive man in public like he's i don't know how much it comes across on tv and stuff and people might be frustrated that he got promoted this global search that sort of found the guy that was already there frustrated people at Quinn's but I think he's got a lot about him and I saw Jamie Roberts talking about him over the weekend and was saying he worked with him at the Waratahs and he's a seriously impressive coach and like test quality coach I think he's just been having to do the defence and everything else at the same time and a lot of the players love him and they showed that on Saturday didn't they in

17:53Alfie: Cardiff definitely no it was really impressive Quinn's performance although I can imagine Quinn's fans were probably watching it and thinking where on earth has that been all season let's get on to the situation at Leicester so as I was waiting and getting prepared in Cardiff I was doing commentary of Matt Garvin he came up to me said have you seen what happened with Jeff Parling and TNT said no he gets his phone out and shows me the situation I'm sure many of you would have

18:12Charlie: seen it by now but for those in those circumstances as well I was exactly the same sort of got a message of have you seen what's happened and then I actually diligently I must add went back to try and get the whole context of it on their sort of player just to make sure that it was yeah it's

18:28Alfie: important to see everything i think yeah for sure so for those that haven't seen it um pre-match at villa park ahead of gloucester leicester tnt on the pitch as they often are craig doyle hosting and then liam mcdevitt i think was working on their rugby coverage for the first time i think he's been involved in in their in tnt's football coverage um previously and as part of the initiation as they called it they gave him a conversion from the near the left hand touch line to hit towards the post we've seen people do it before i remember ugo monja doing like a dropkick from the sideline. It was at West Ham or something where he absolutely nailed it.

19:00Charlie: It was half time. So that was at

19:04Alfie: half time. But anyway, pregame, they take this conversion, it just misses, goes towards the post, Parling comes over and is not happy. Shoves Craig Doyle, you hear him swear and tell them to get off the pitch, discuss. Can we just say that whatever we think and all the pearl clutching and everything else, it was very funny. It was funny, yeah. We're all allowed to just go. If you have means,

19:25Charlie: zoom in to Brian driscoll's face yeah it's beautiful it's somebody who's just watched their mate in class get absolutely rinsed by a teacher and knows that they if they stay if they keep that straight face for 10 seconds that they're in the clear um where should we start i thought starting point quite lame and clumsy from tnt especially knowing that they that nothing was um nothing was uh pre agreed with and organised with Leicester, as tends to be the case, with their excellent sort of coverage pre-games before. I thought then, clumsy in return from Parling, and that's basically all I thought of it, to be honest.

20:06The other funny bit was, just before I get into what I actually think about it, was when Parling was walking over, Craig Dahl, bless him, thought that he was coming over for a chat, and went like, hey mate, are you going to sign him up? And he was like, yeah. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Jeff's not happy about that. like such memeable content and you think how good is craig doyle yeah i mean he's an unbelievably good broadcaster isn't he and like the the poise to just sort of brush that off and just crack on with it was great but and and in a funny way the whole it's sort of in on itself isn't it but the funny thing of everyone going like oh my god rugby hates growing its game you're a bit like this clip's gone mental viral and it's on every newspaper and it's like talking about the rugby

20:49Alfie: isn't it well as we often say the the talk sport test of getting rugby on talk sport i spoke to one of the producers of white and jordan this morning and said can we get jeff parling on he's like yeah

21:00Charlie: we're talking about that yeah so you know on on so on that i i had a chat with somebody very influential in english rugby union at the beginning of the season he suggested that leicester could lean in sort of um intentionally to their sort of image of being gruff of circling the wagons and in a sort of way and i think his point was that it could sort of be in a way that saracens have tried to do with the north london or sort of mischief they have after after games and trying to sort of be the bad guy he thought leicester could do that even more convincingly because they are just inherently the bad guys and they absolutely are proud of that and sort of to underline that the reaction i've seen you know i know a lot of leicester fans and they just about all of them adored it and said you know give jeff parling a pay rise that's what we're actually

21:47Alfie: about as a club protecting the players um i find this so i find it so fascinating how i'm with polarize the the view is on this and the amount of people i've seen that have been in jeff parling's camp and i'll be totally honest i thought it was funny as you guys said but i thought parling was totally out of line i think his excuse for he was worried about the well-being of the players and someone getting injured. What injury are you worried about here, Jeff?

22:15Charlie: Is this... So I know, like, obviously they're not... Being hit with the ball is less serious. I thought he also meant, if they're not looking, there could be a Glenn McGrath sort of tripping on the ball sort of vibe. I'm not saying that that excuses that being the main thing.

22:31Alfie: Sure, but I thought his excuse was pretty paper thin. And I think, reading between the lines, I think Leicester themselves know that they got the tone of it wrong by the fact that they released a statement then on Sunday evening where they did kind of apologise and all that sort of thing. So, yeah, I just felt like, I felt like Parling was out of line. I felt like his excuse for why he did it was pretty lightweight and pretty paper thin in the first place. And, look, it's not a huge deal. We'll all move on. But I've found the amount of people that are kind of like, yeah, good on you, Jeff. You stick it to them.

23:06It's just all a little bit bizarre. It's like, yeah, yeah, stick it to them. jeff and let's have no coverage let's have no access let's just batten down the hatches like it's only us in our own little bubble brilliant yeah it's only just less the tigers all the way

23:20Alfie: they haven't approved they haven't approved it beforehand who cares just like i think i put in our whatsapp like it just reminds me of like the milk monitor at school or someone but excuse me you haven't actually yeah yeah yeah come on and look i think there's lots of wider to and look i think we're probably like everyone else sort of like over extrapolating this tiny thing into this mega issue but I do think it talks to the heart of lots of the issues that are going on in our sport at the moment maybe this is pulling back the curtain a bit too much but we're the journalist rugby podcast so I think we should and can is that access to in the media varies so wildly between clubs between countries and there are so many people in the sport doing brilliant stuff and they're far too many not doing enough and also the problem I find is so much of it is pervaded by head coaches when this is not their job their job is to coach the team but everything is sacrificed on the altar of high performance it's like if this doesn't help our high performance we're not doing it and there are some refreshingly bristol are a very good example sailor another very good example northampton a really good example where they understand that there is a wider picture a bigger picture big events good access to players coaches everything else openness and there are far too many other clubs I'm afraid that are not good enough at this and are quite happy to sort of operate in their only own tiny little spheres I think that too many head coaches are control freaks well does that's a problem I think that's one of the things that maybe this gets right into the heart of of actually you see the kind of the mindset or just like the how a coach's brain operates, like the control they want to have on that.

25:04Alfie: And it kind of spilled over in quite an ugly way here, but it's quite a revealing thing. Absolutely. That's why I think this is important. And also I think there's a second bit to that which is related, which is rugby takes itself far too seriously. Everything's so frowning and serious and dour and important. It's so important. The warm-up is so important, Alfie, that we can't have someone kicking a goal during it. Because someone might get injured. And you go, come on, just lighten up. This is a sport. This is a diversion. This is what people want to do on the weekend. This is fun. Charlie, come to the end of the day.

25:39Charlie: I think we're in danger of this being a big false equivalence. I think all of that, as valid as all of that is, I think it was, that wasn't access. A guy booting a ball towards the base. I agree. I'm extrapolating this on purpose. No, no, no. Because this is a wider point. But all those points are fair. I think this is a head coach stopping his side from being distracted by what was just a clumsy moment from TNT. And as I say, it was clumsy. And I think the really sort of good point is that the statement sort of shows us that actually Leicester realised that the league is moving and should be moving.

26:18Charlie: and is being driven maybe is the better way of putting it towards a place where more access is everybody's working towards getting more access and Leicester fans certainly want more access as well they're not the circle and wagon thing I think is a pride that their head coach is is on it and I think that's more more what it was he has clearly regretted it as well so I think with all of this we're not trying to hammer jeff parling necessarily for like a short sharp reaction live on tv we're trying to say that maybe it pulled back the curtain a bit and revealed some of these issues that we battle with week after week and some people just saw it happen live on tv which maybe then pulls back all the stuff that we deal with all the time yeah yeah

27:05Alfie: we're trying to get into the circle i feel like maybe we need to be more like charlie is very measured, level-headed. I'm like, what injury, Jeff? What injury?

27:16Charlie: Nobody's ever shoved me when I've asked him a question.

27:20Alfie: All right, we'll leave it there. We'll come back the other side of Will Collier and have a chat about the Champions Cup last 16. But Will Collier, of course, Times columnist. He's playing his rugby out in cast and they take on the Northampton Saints in the last 16 this weekend. Just a quick breather to tell you about today's sponsor Allianz, a partner that's all about opening rugby up to more people. Their support goes way beyond Allianz Stadium. Through the Allianz Future Fund, they've already put over£100 ,000 straight into community clubs across the UK, helping fund projects that bring new people into the game.

27:58Alfie: And with the Allianz Kickstart programme now reaching 5 ,000 schools, thousands of kids are getting their first taste of rugby, some for the very first time. if your local club could do with a bit of a lift check out the link in the show notes and nominate them for an Allianz Future Fund grant okay so live down the line from the south of France is Will Collier Times columnist how's how's life as a as a journalist Will you've been contributing loads of great columns through the Six Nations loving your scrums everyone's loving your stuff are you part of the club now very kind thank you that has a nice ring to it Will well collier times columnist i think i just changed my social handles or something um but no it's it's good it's good you know everyone always says it's the props who are the most intelligent or hiding the hiding the talents talents um and i'm good that i can hopefully show people that we don't just scrum we can write a bit as well and know a bit about the game yeah absolutely we were talking off air about your column about the deer cull which was sort of close to home because your dad's a richmond park ranger he is a richmond park ranger yep so careful if you're misbehaving in the park Mark Colley will be there.

29:05Watch out. We're chatting to you this week, Will, because massive game for Cast, your team away at Northampton in the Champions Cup this week. Can you kind of paint the picture for us of what it's like in preparation for one of these big games? Cast have obviously played Saints in the last 16 last year, so you're familiar foes. Yeah, no, it's huge. We've only just had the Monday morning meeting, but it's already a bit edgy. They're kind of throwing around. and it's the deuxième crunch um and you know cast small plucky town traditionally we don't chase europe traditionally we don't travel particularly well um in the last couple of seasons that's changed we've had a big away wins in saracens in munster so there's a bit of you know belief now bubbling away um and a bit of a taste and a flavor and a hunger for these big european matches now at cast so there's definitely an edge amongst the boys in the group how does

29:58Charlie: that look like how does the change between when a side chases europe prioritizes europe versus when you don't is it is it really obvious because sort of to it to a squad i think so you mean you know you can tell when the team's been rotated as it is which which often happens and i think it's you know it's like i said the last year in europe we we weren't sure i don't think the team was sure how we're going to go because the for a club like cast i'm gonna be honest you know jeopardy is so huge in the top 14 and you see it you know sometimes teams have to do have to prioritize in europe and there's big debate around that and people sending different squads but i think what gave us huge belief last year was we did this rotated squad that went away to saracens and we won there against some you know all of their best their best players which gave us huge belief as a squad so what we can do and on the back of that kind of slightly propelled us into into the other fixtures but we've said from the outset this season we want to we want to go hard in europe and be honest about that.

30:53Whereas before, I think, when you set the goals pre-season, often it casts in some other clubs, that's not necessarily being the priority. It's, you know, make sure we're establishing the top 14 and then we can go from there, lads. And so what changes in a week like this, Will? Because when we've been messaging before, you've been sending me pictures of Baguette Club. Is that what, on a Tuesday, do they get all put away this week or is it like dialing up the food? Does the quality of the food go with the quality of the match? We can go to the menu if you want, the carte du jour. Yes, please. someone's birthday today so we have morning morning gato which was nice i need to be careful i need to be careful if i don't think our our essence or actually we don't have a nutritionist so it doesn't matter but i don't think he got sacked after the foie gras came out did he yeah genuine um but it's the big it's a big part of it and i you know i mentioned before the podcast that i mean it's it's funny but it does have an impact on on the preparation obviously because you know professional sport and food nutrition go hand in hand even more so in france even more so as a prop forward in france it's kind of you know it revolves around rugby and food but for the boys here you know last time we when we went away to northampton they were you know the game didn't go away in the end but the hotel which i'm not going to name um they they didn't put on the best spread for the boys and i felt partly responsible for that being the only englishman to cast um so i got a lot of heat and a lot of flax so the minute i saw we'd drawn northampton away i went to the managers to check which hotel we're going in let's check check the menu because um the big thing i was the asparagus which which didn't go down well and the boys are already worried this asparagus season here in france which is a big thing like the mushroom season and you know the seasonality here the produce it but it genuinely it has an impact like you know the boys ritual they have the little jambe on match day with a fresh baguette and the butter and you know we laugh but it's a thing they they do and it's part of the routine what was wrong with the asparagus too stringy not a slave i mean i don't know where to start really we so much so many problems well the first thing it was it was raw it wasn't cooked and then it wasn't uh it wasn't washed either so it was like grainy and muddy so one of the boys oh oh we did last first and like took a bite i'm surprised you didn't get the plane to go through that is dreadful obviously the the um the meal plan hadn't been adjusted for the english seasonality so they just said right if we're going to a french hotel whatever we'll just give them the usual what we'd be getting here the asparagus etc so they send it to the as i said i'm not gonna name the hotel but it had a bit of an effect on the boys i think did people use it as motivation of like henry pollock's messing with the asparagus we've got to go and get him yeah i don't know if he's uh focused on the asparagus seasons as um our back room right here.

33:35But it's, you know, it's part, it's all part of it.

33:39Charlie: Can we reveal that you're going to a different hotel or have you backed them to take the learnings? Do you know what? I think, yeah, breaking news, I think it's the same hotel, which is devastating. Oh, wow. Amazing. They've got a lot, they've got a lot to live up to. I don't know if we'll be on Deliveroo or Uber Eats, they both don't really exist. If there's a Deliveroo in the Northampton area that does asparagus, I'll be shocked. My boys might bring their own asparagus, obviously, boiling them in the kettle or something. So asparagus aside, like if we dwell on some food for a little bit longer, because this is the best content of the pod, I think, what else is on the menu this week?

34:12And do you have to pare it back? Like you can't just fatten the calves all week, can you, surely? Well, no, it's not so much about maybe what we're eating, but it's the kind of the collective togetherness of like mealtime and snack time and the collation. It's an event. it's like for the lunch we're all sitting down for at least half an hour 45 minutes together and you're going to have a starter you're going to have a main and you're going to have dessert so when i when i arrived you know you kind of go in i was worried that i was going to miss out on the quiche and i think so you whack all on one big plate what's he doing what's this guy doing he doesn't know the risk like you have your little salad starter then you go over for the mains and then but you all sit down together same with you know i sent you the photo of the baguettes and the hams in between in between training it's a it's a fit everyone you know sits and carefully prepares the jambon burr with the lovely salted butter and the ham and the cheeses and it's about it's kind of the sharing the culture and the togetherness of it all which i love well i think when we you're writing a column for us this this week about the preparation of this game i feel like it's going to be food heavy but should we talk some rugby as well we can try yeah what should what should everyone expect who doesn't watch cast every week from you guys in terms of style of play and a few like names and players that they should look out for who might not be household names over this way yeah well there's obviously some players which people might know like the jack good hughes of this world and former black yeah obviously the all black center but we've we've changed a bit the way we play this year we're um slightly more expansive playing a bit more of an offload game we've had a lot of injuries and a lot of teams have but but key injuries for example our 10 louis lebron um and kohaji who was our the big phygean center they were kind of pretty crucial to the way we play koha's a you know great big phygean carrier amazing quite in the plays like andre esterhaisen you know he gets his arms free and offloads and he runs incredibly hard off him but then we've got jack and and villi butitu in the centers who can make up that pairing but But it's a big team.

36:16It's a big team. I know everyone, it's a stereotype. We always say, oh, the French are really big. But they're big, big men. You know, the second row is here. Enormous duke out in the second row. Tom Staniforth, you know, who's been in the French squad. NACA as well. There isn't a second row who's under 6 '5", 6 '6", here. And then it's just gnarly gritty back row. No superstars. But last year, I name-checked Baptiste Delaporte, I think. who's kind of born and bred here. He's in the same mould as like a Mathieu Babio, who's our captain. But they're both, you know, cast through and through, born and bred, gritty, tough.

36:54They just love contacts and getting their face in the mud. And before the games, it can be like, you know, the old school French images you see of like, a bit of the head butting and Vaseline everywhere, DP everywhere. It's a bit of that and the passion. But I think, yeah, so like I said, you know, you'll see the big men trying to lock it down up front and then trying to play a bit more expansive this year and play out the back. We play with, you know, the piston pod of three, play out the back, shift it wide. Another person to look out for if he's playing is Christian, our winger, who is unbelievably quick, unbelievably powerful.

37:29Charlie: Really exciting. And it sounded like it might have been because of the East Midlands cuisine a bit last year, Will, but can we expect the same level of tetchiness? It was a bit fiery the last time you guys came up against one another? yeah i um i fired the boys up maybe a bit too much we might as i said our emotional energy was a bit spent in the changing rooms before perhaps but um you know as i said before 50 50 minutes into the game i think we were five points away from them and we really stuck in the fight and then they brought on their subs and we just couldn't hold on they completely ran away with it as a team like northampton can do you know their magic they're completely star-sided but we've got you know there's a bit of a blueprint and a bit of a belief now okay you know 50 minutes we were we were there we can do that again now if we make those little changes when the subs come on and we know how to control the game a little bit better we know how they can finish the game in the last 30 that's where the game is going to be won then we can look to target that but there's yeah there's a you know we're going in as underdogs obviously but a team like us it's what we love And what about give us some of your top 14 French insight to the the other guys in the last 16 we know plenty about Bordeaux and Toulouse but they're playing obviously Tigers and Bristol and then we've got Toulon Stormers Toulon how are they tracking at the moment?

38:45They've slipped up a bit the last few weeks actually they were kind of well in top 6 looking really good and they've had some results that really haven't gone their way I think they lost to Stad at home which quite badly didn't they? Yeah it was an amazing performance from Stad and fair play but that doesn't happen in Toulon it's I mean obviously you have to lose but it's right up they were the hardest place to go away and win it's incredible as you know stab my eye was incredibly hard to win there so they've had some results they're not gone their way i think they've dropped down ninth or ninth or tenth it's below us now i think you know that that could be one of them those where they're saying right well maybe top 14 is gone for us and realistically can we get into top six have you seen that where are they yeah they're 11th yeah 11th yeah um which which actually all their emotional energy and everything would probably be going into europe now and getting back to that because it looks it looks for us you know usually this stage of the season if you're in 11th there's still the real jeopardy of relegation you know one game goes the wrong way you could end up in 13th and suddenly you're fighting for a playoff place but this year it's been slightly different with Montalban and Perpignan who who are pretty cemented down the bottom yeah so you know Toulon might say you know we're safe this is it everything's everything's going into Europe now yeah that's remarkable for a sort of British audience to see Toulon 11th out of 14 isn't it I guess maybe there's some similar vibes there with Sale and Quinns who this is their last shot last swing of the bat really isn't it for the whole season both of them like playing each other but you're all club Quinns what have you made of they they came out fighting on Saturday against Bristol and and won they did one of their shot wins didn't they the most um well well I mean I think I saw a few comments before the game and spoke to a few lads like no knowing Quinns will go and win this and I kind of thought yeah probably but not with that score line if you'd expect him to go you know 41 42 or something but it was the defense and well I mean what a performance what belief from the boys to to do that um I mean it's just mad I've you know season and a half haven't been there and the squad's already pretty completely different when I was there but seeing boys like Don Brandt and Caden and um it's come at the perfect time that win away from home and obviously it was revenge for bristol did to quins um at the big game at twickenham which was pretty pretty horrendous yeah um but yeah it's it's really personal between quins and bristol now actually thinking back to the semi and there's a lot of history there but i think that's come as i said the perfect the perfect time for them to now go into europe off the back of that against sale because i think people have said this could be good draw for Quinns.

41:23It's kind of perfect at home. They could beat Stale, but it's going to be really tough. That's their niggly team. It's kind of the antithesis of what Quinns are. I think they could grind it out.

41:35Charlie: Can I ask what your sort of, through your lens you're looking at now, what have you made of the Prem and maybe the Prem teams that are remaining in this draw? Their prospects of, because it looks like it's going to be tough going. We'll get one semi won't we because there's going to be an all um all all prem court final but winning this competition is is still such a tough task yeah um i mean it was kind of looking at thinking about northampton last year um but but it's you know we can we can be competitive definitely the premiership teams are competitive in europe but it's as you said it's to actually go to the next level and and go and win the thing which hasn't happening how long now or since Exeter 2020 won't it be yeah since 2020 the the French all the way since right yeah yeah but the strengths of the squads over here I don't know I don't know can a team can a team can a premiers team do that now I think it's incredibly tough it's incredibly tough to do that now you've got you've got to be able to have a have first and second string who are there or thereabouts so you can rotate the team throughout the season and um like you know like a Bordeaux or Toulouse if you don't have that the emotional energy it takes to go on and try and win this thing is brutal and there's obviously some incredible squads in the Premiership and starting 15 and match their 23s but I think the real strength that a lot of these French clubs have is they can flip in and out and we choose this 23 or this 23 or this 15 and there's hardly any difference.

43:05Yeah I guess the one club who can do that in the Prem at the moment is Bath but just by the draw they've got to beat Saris then possibly beat you or Saints and then go to either Bordeaux or Toulouse and you think, blimey they're having their best season ever and that's their draw, that's their route to just get to the semi-final Yeah I know, but they could do it, they could do it we've got an incredible team managing the injuries now at this stage of the season Last one Will, what's the shock? And you can say cast at Saints if you want everyone's looking at this going, one shock what could it be?

43:41I'll say I'll say Cast Saints to cover my back yeah well done I'm obliged to and then who else have we got Saris are away at Bath aren't they yeah the away team Tigers at Bordeaux Bristol at Toulouse Saris at Bath you at Saints Bulls at Glasgow Stormers at Toulon Edinburgh at Leinster and Sales Sharks at Quint oh I'm mad I'm going to go Saris okay they've got players they've done it before I know going off the very recent track record and results, people say I'm crazy, but they've got players who know how to win those kind of games and they could grind that out. Nice. Okay, well, I feel like we need one shock and let's hope it isn't the menu at your unnamed hotel in Northampton or near Northampton.

44:31Well, let's hope it's a pleasant shock. Yeah, a pleasant shock. Pleasant surprise to get some good asparagus down there. Yeah, check delivery up there. Awesome. Well, really appreciate your time and all the best for Cast for this weekend and like everyone who wants to read more about the week that is going to come for Cast in this week, pick up a copy of the Times online, everywhere else. Will will keep on writing because he's brilliant at it.

44:56Alfie: Well, great to have Will Collier on the pod and as mentioned there in that conversation, keep an eye out for his behind the scenes from Cast this week. In terms of the other matches, so obviously Northampton against Cast, you've got Bath Saris, to Lawn Stormers, Glasgow Bulls, Toulouse-Bristol, Harlequin Sale, Bordeaux-Leicester and Leinster-Edinburgh. Am I being harsh when I say that we're kind of waiting for next weekend in the quarterfinal line-up here, lads?

45:21Charlie: No, you're not being harsh at all. That's totally fine. The Harlequin Sale just sticks out as ninth in the Prem hosting, seventh in the Prem. The Prem being a league where eight out of ten qualify, which just blows my brain to smithereens. just please can that be cut and however I know the formats are locked in until 2030 yeah well until they get a better idea basically it's almost like why aren't Prem Clubs going stop this it's madness what do you think they should go on strike just not play that'd be quite funny I think we're going to see and the irony is that we being the media sort of pilloried French sides for the big rotation that happened sometimes when they realised quite abruptly that they were going to prioritise the league.

46:14Charlie: Leicester are going to Bordeaux, where they have won in the past and played brilliantly. That was a sort of flagship result of the Steve Borthwick reign. But they're going to arrest Oli Chesson. And that's just because they need a week off post-Six Nations. They haven't had one yet, all three of them. And the marker that they were going to do that was that they all played against Gloucester, wasn't it? So that's not really information. That's just obvious by the fact that they had to have one week off in the next three and they haven't taken it yet.

46:41Alfie: I also can't blame Leicester for that. When you look at an away trip to Bordeaux, all right, look, you never know. You could do it. We've seen Quinns go and win there in Northampton last year. An amazing time in Europe. But you think for this season, Leicester, obviously, the priority is going to be getting top four. So I don't blame them whatsoever playing those guys in their two Prem games and resting them for Europe.

47:00Charlie: No, and they've got 10 points out of those two Prem games. And sometimes it is a really good, when you rotate a side, it's a really good marker for how well coached and how good your depth, how well coached you are as a side, how good your depth is becoming. Bath v. Sale. Bath v. Yeah. That's an obvious example. Saints versus Bath being the flagship one this season. Saints sort of rotating and going down there and playing exactly like we come to expect from Northampton, albeit with less familiar names. so it can certainly be worthwhile but I just think as we talk about integrity like a lot I mean integrity of competition it just it just is a bit um so if you're EBCR this week you're tearing your hair up again and you're like I pray for a shock they would be desperate for someone to win away where's it coming

47:55Alfie: I was just about to say where's the most likely shock I actually can't see it well let's go through them say or quins but you can't say

48:00Charlie: that's a huge maybe not no dependent on the two south african franchises you'd you'd back those to those guys to pit well if you go bordeaux tigers and like tigers will be full of spirit and they're in good form generally but you still expect bordeaux to come swinging at that and put 40 points past defending champions number one seeds to lose bristol similar could be more if it gets ugly so that's two games that are written off bar saracens is a weirdly sort of an unknown maybe because you go it can't be 60 odd 15 again surely like it was the other saracens aren't in good form and barth are in great form and they've rested half their best players who've all gone holiday last week and they're back fresh and they haven't had a home game in the champions cup knockout for about 20 years and so they're going to be fizzing for that so you'd expect them to win you just don't really know what margin that'll be saints cast you'd expect saints to win that they're in good form and that'd be a massive shock if they lost that game Glasgow have been probably the story of the Champions Cup from the pool stage haven't they beat to lose didn't they so and the Bulls were not interested in the slightest and oh no they've actually accidentally managed to get into the last 16.

49:13Tillon Stormers you expect Tillon to win that Stormers do like the Champions Cup we always say that like John Dobson their coach loves it but they're hamstrung they feel by travel and everything else not sure what sort of side they'll bring leinster you'd be amazed if they lost to edinburgh who are poor generally and like if we had mark palmer on he'd tell you that as well um and then quincell yeah i guess sales probably the most likely away win of all of those and not a huge shock though is it like that's the game i'm doing on the weekend and i guess that whole report will be sort of this was the last swing of the bat for either of them this season and then what comes next week leinster away but

49:52Alfie: isn't this what it so often comes down to when we chat about the champions cup so if we run through those results of you just laid them out it means then next week it would be bordeaux to lose bath northampton glasgow toulon and then leinster either quins or sale all right that quarterfinal isn't that interesting but those other games are like just wet your appetite but then you go welcome back european cup where have you been all this time what a fantastic set of matches what a weekend lock in but doesn't that just underline the problem of the whole competition is yes at that point when we get to easter the second weekend in april well the weekend after yeah the second weekend in april it's brilliant but we've had to wait months to get it will be imagine that bordeaux to lose quarterfinal bar saints quarterfinal that'd be absolutely awesome well is

50:38Charlie: the answer to enliven it and by the way i think bristol will be better in to lose and i think

50:44Alfie: they'll throw a few shots um bristol by the way actually took it really seriously this year and they played really well in the pool stage they had some really big results they went away to south africa and won in that mad game yeah crazy game and then because to lose haven't been quite as good it's like there you go trip to lose just get the eighth seat there at home yeah

51:04Charlie: do you do to sort of enliven it do you just cut just half the team i'm stealing a point here that somebody made to me at the weekend but do you do you just cut it in half say eight go through play two legs to keep the sort of calendar the same because then you've got if the top eight seeds are bordeaux um bordeaux glasgow leinster bath saints heart well harlequin's still there aren't they having beaten i mean they did go to larichelle and win um toulon and to lose that's a good that's a that's a strong

51:37Alfie: when you do just court final is two legs yeah yeah I

51:41Charlie: guess that was a covid sort of yeah they did the last 16 double-legged jobs didn't they um I don't know I just think we've said this every time but 16 teams end of the season that's my that's my theory all the other things are just sort of like fiddling on the what's the I'm gonna massively mangle a phrase here deck checks on the deck chairs deck chairs on the titanic it's fiddling while rome burns and also moving the deck chairs on the titanic and i've sort of gone just lovely smash them together i think we got the general point yeah yeah nicely done so i don't know but i i feel sad about this mate because it's like we when we record this pod at this time every year we say we feel like we just say the same thing and maybe we need to be more creative about how to attack these weekends but you just go please, please defy it.

52:33Please defy the logic. And like, let's have Tigers winning in Bordeaux. Like, mental. They'll just be amazing. But you just feel like it's unlikely.

52:40Charlie: Saracen's bath is going to be a scrap as well. Well, you've got to think, if Sarri's aren't throwing everything at that, kitchen sink, punches, whatever, maybe not punches, then that's the end of their season. They're done. Yeah. That's the end of the Mark McCall era. Done. Out with a whimper in April. Finished. like they're massively unlikely to make the top four now and like what what a way to like end this like stunning era of the mark mccall reign with just a kind of wet blanket last few months that'd be rubbish wouldn't it i can't see that from them they've got so much character in that dressing room and so much sort of like experience and dog and fight and spirit and everything they can't just sort of let it fizzle for the next three months can they well no you wouldn't have thought

53:25Alfie: I am thinking though as we're speaking about this after we're absolutely savaging the last 16, we're going to get three all-time great away wins now, aren't we? And that'd be brilliant. That's what we want. I think we feel like we have to be critical of the Champions Cup because it is a bit of a basket case. But we want it to be brilliant. Like all things in our sport, we want it to be amazing and the best thing ever. And for everyone to love it and sit around their TV all weekend and just go, I've had the best time watching eight amazing games and then I'm going to gorge on the fore next weekend as well.

54:01That's what we want, isn't it? We don't want it to be rubbish.

54:03Alfie: Well, if you want to send us an email about anything we've touched upon in the pod this week or just any of your own thoughts as well, questions you want us to try and get to, then the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Do you guys know where you're heading next weekend? Quincelle for me.

54:17Charlie: Quincelle. The bald man fighting over a comb. I'm on holiday. Where are you off to? Dorset. Dorset and then, yeah. Yeah, and then family time for Easter.

54:26Alfie: See, Charlie just taking the last 16 off because, you know. Back at it for the quarterfinals. Yeah, then I'm off for the quarters. Thank you very much for listening or watching. If you watch the pod on YouTube, we'll be back with you next Monday. Before you go, we just want to shine a light on the great work Allianz is doing behind the scenes to support the game we all love. We talk a lot on the Ruck about Premiership stars and England internationals, but every one of those journeys starts somewhere. Usually on a freezing morning at a local club with volunteers, hand-me-down kit and a belief that rugby can genuinely change lives.

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