'PREM' season preview - A new Red Bull era and Thursday night rugby

0:15Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. I'm Alfie Reynolds and delighted to say, back alongside Will Callagher. Hello. When did we last see each other properly? Sydney, in the pub? Glenmore Hotel eating a steak and chips mid record which none of you would have heard because it was edited out gloriously well by Alfie something along those lines so that would have been it but you've not been off you've been podding every week with Elgin women's world cup women's world cup never stops haven't had much in the way of time off but you've been away you've been away yeah I went to Sri Lanka which was glorious if anyone would like to get any tips on things to in Sri Lanka.

0:56They can get them from you. I can tell you everything. But look, we've come back here. We're at Twickenham and it's still raining. We left each other in the rain in Sydney and it's still raining now. Usually, we're going to contextualise this by saying we're at the launch of the Prem now, we should call it. The Prem, not the Premiership. The Prem Rugby new season, yeah. And yeah, we're standing at the stadium, the National Stadium and there's all sorts of activity going on. There's content, there's lights, there's... I feel like all the DORs have had a glow up. I was looking at Rob Baxter. He looks trim.

1:26He looks ready for the new season. He does. It's kind of tans. They've all been on holiday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone's got, yeah, Phil Dowson's got a nice quiff going. Like, it all feels very fresh, doesn't it? But an exciting start to a new season.

1:39Alfie: Yeah, well, maybe to follow that analogy or observation is sum up the prem as we need to get used to calling it now, which we kind of called it before. We sort of already called it the prem, didn't we? Kind of, yeah. but we can't call it the premiership though because that's not what it's called. Although I think the organisation is still premiership rugby but the name of the league is the Gallagher Prem. Let's not go down or open that can of worms but sum it up Willian. So we're stood here now. Usually I associate these days with the Prem launch being really sunny. It's been absolutely chucking it down with rain in the stands at Twickenham ahead of a new season which starts on a Thursday which we're going to be chatting to Alex Anderson about.

2:18Alfie: We've got Red Bull as the new owners of Newcastle. we'll be chatting to Steve Diamond and so a league that a couple of years ago was really struggling off the back of losing a couple of clubs feels to me in a far healthier much more exciting vibrant position yeah it's it's got a freshness about it and we probably think that every time we start a new season and have had a few weeks off but maybe just because of the fact that it is starting on a different day the Thursday and we know some of that is because they're trying to avoid the women's world cup final which is happening pretty soon and back at this gaff so they didn't want to play on saturday so they've moved the sale glossed the game to thursday a couple to the friday and the others to the sunday so there's sort of technical reasons for that but i think they just wanted to give it a go and see what happens there the premiership prem have been trying a few innovations over the last couple of seasons like away ends that we've talked about on the pod and things like that and kind of just gathering the data about does it attract different people or younger people or different genders all that sort of thing so why not give it a go and it seems like sale were the first to put the hands up and said we'll have a crack why not which is very in keeping with them also trying to be different as well and then the newcastle thing that's the that's the big news of the summer by alex lowe in the summer yeah during that lines tour that they are now newcastle red bulls falcons have flown the nest they're no more falcons was the name that was there for 20 30 years where they were newcastle gosforth before that so they have changed the name before but as we will talk about with steve diamond newcastle have as someone put it to us earlier in the summer have gone from being the league's biggest headache to their sort of most positive thing in the competition because they were a club that had an investor in Seymour Curdie who had investor fatigue.

3:58He didn't want to be part of it anymore. He basically put the club on sale for a quid, a nominal fee, because he wanted out, really. And that wasn't because he was necessarily done with rugby or Newcastle itself. He's put a huge amount of money into it, but was just not seeing a future for it. So the fact that one of the big companies, a blue-chip company, has come in to English rugby and spent a lot of money and they're now part of this kind of wider Red Bull family of sporting institutions extreme sports yeah that's really good and we've asked a lot of people here today about it who are from different clubs and rightly they're all going what a good sign for the league and the league themselves are delighted that someone of the statue of Red Bull want to be invested in rugby and look we've all got to caveat it and say that Newcastle aren't going to suddenly become the Springboks, the All Blacks overnight, they're probably still likely to be delighted to win five or six games this season.

4:53Alfie: Well, because it happened quite late as well during this summer, didn't it, when it was actually signed off? I mean, to the point where Steve Diamond's walking around here with an unbranded black shirt with just the Red Bull logo because they've only just established they've actually got a new crest, which has got the time bridge and all that sort of stuff on it. And look, if you look on paper as well, they've made some good signings. but when you delve a bit deeper into it they're all sorts of replacements of people who've left so like Jamie Blumeyer's gone, Adam Rabwan's gone, Callum Chick's gone, Pedro Rubiolo's gone and they've brought in Christy and they've got Christian Wade coming in December and things like that and they're not necessarily adding to their squad they're sort of replacing who's left but you hope if it gives an injection of sort of vibes and positivity that's one thing and then grows Northern rugby and North East rugby.

5:42Alfie: But isn't the point here as well more that, thank goodness, the Newcastle situation has been resolved because this pod could easily have been heading into a new season thinking, are Newcastle going to be able to finish the season? Or what does it even look like? Whereas now, yes, OK, for this season, we're not sure how competitive they might be because the takeovers only recently happened. Their recruitment there for this upcoming season had pretty much been done. But down the road, we could have a Newcastle team that aren't just that side that every week and you say oh who's playing Newcastle well that's probably yeah well to the point where and look maybe this is it doesn't necessarily mean this is the great new start of Newcastle but just by the fact that they are now a new named club and people are interested people like us now want to go up there and go I wonder what the Newcastle project's all about let's go and see their first game of the season against Saracens and lots more people will do that rather than as you say look at the fixture list and go wow we kind of know Newcastle are probably going to lose so let's go to somewhere else this weekend so all that massively helps and yeah you just I guess the thing is that at the back end of last season Steve Diamond was saying to people we've frozen recruitment we can't promise players that they're going to have a contract next season and you thought this has a ring of Worcester Wasps and Irish about it and now you go they're probably the least worrying club in the league now financially because they've got this huge institution behind them and money security they are going to exist and based on where we've been in the last five years in the Prem that's not always something you can be confident about that clubs are going to end the season.

7:08Definitely.

7:09Alfie: So on that note let's hear from the Newcastle director of rugby Steve Diamond. We've got chats with Alex Sanderson from Sale on the way also Simon Massey-Taylor the Prem Rugby CEO but given that we're talking about Newcastle that's been the huge story of the summer this is what Steve Diamond had to say to us. Well Steve great to see you. Welcome back onto the pod. Will and I were just chatting and we came up to see you guys a year ago ahead of the season and a lot of our chat was, where were Newcastle at that point in time off the back of, I suppose, a tough season? This feels very different this year.

7:40Alfie: You've got the new Red Bull logo on your chest and how exciting, I suppose, do you find heading into this new season with the takeover and everything that's happened this summer? Very exciting. I think the one thing I'm conscious of and most people in the environment are conscious is not remembering the past too often. You have to move on. And one thing we learned from the past is we learned to be really resilient and operate. And people have said it numerous times about I can operate on a shoestring, etc. Which is true. But what it does do that, it does engage into real good behaviors. Hard work on and off the field.

8:20So we learned a lot. Notwithstanding that, the lights have opened in front of us. It's wonderful to go to work knowing that there's security there. that we've got a new owner who, behind the scenes, they let their actions do the talking. They didn't make a huge announcement about the purchase of Newcastle. What they've done is work behind the scenes, certainly with me on the rugby side, on the recruitment side, giving me all what I need, i.e. the resource to recruit the right people. They've backed the decision-making of it, and they question it, quite rightly so. The commercial team, they're working well with them.

9:00But to be fair, they've just said it's all about the year and now. Get this season as best we can get it. We've got to remember, I think it's 31 days since the takeover took place. It's right in the middle of holiday time and Lions tours and England tours and stuff. So recruiting is always a tough ask at that time of year. As we all know, you're 12 months in advance on your recruitment. but we managed to handpick some serial players, I think, who will do a job for us. When we've talked to people about the takeover outside of Newcastle and at the Prem, they've said the club's almost gone from being the league's biggest headache to its most positive place.

9:40Do you kind of feel like certain weights have lifted off you and the whole club, where you go, you don't have to be thinking about what's happening in two months' time, can we sign players? I remember talking to you at the end of last season and you were thinking, I'm not going to promise players there's a contract for next summer because I don't know yet. Has all of these weights been lifted off your shoulders? Well, a lot of them have, but also I think what Red Bull do very well when I say earlier about their actions speak louder than words, you know, they want to return on investment in performance and that's what they're really good at.

10:10Tomorrow, for example, their athletic performance team are coming in from Austria, from other areas of the world, other consultancies to look what we do and it's not a secret shopper that's what's really impressive about them they're not trying to catch people out it's what do you do how do you do it can we make it better and it's a collaboration not a direction you know so that's the coolest thing I've found is that they come they listen they observe and they have an opinion and what more do you want.

10:44Alfie: So are you going to be having conversations then it seems like it from what you've just said there but with the formula one team or jürgen klopp there's this kind of whole high performance do you know what i mean like all these different high performance teams from various different sports and that's something you can really tap into well yeah i think so but as i said it's slowly slowly you know what before we get before we can run so the athletic team are coming over tomorrow to meet our um high performance team and no doubt there'll be some recommendations coming through that, whether it's about facility, it's about practice of how we do things.

11:18And as I said, it's all collaborative. And no doubt in the future, a lot of career development is needed for myself, for coaches, for players, for commercial team. And the proven track record is they've been very successful in sport. And I think that's one of the big differences between just another investor. I think their branding, their marketing, their ability to get to a demographic that really rugby has struggled to get to. So you haven't had Jürgen Klopp on the phone yet? He's RB Leipzig, isn't he? He's sort of like a head honcho over there. I think he's head honcho over their football business and I think it'd be great to meet him.

12:01Get him a ticket for Kingston Park, why not? Well I think the interesting thing is and which the Prem has tried to change its sort of ethos over the last 12-18 months about showing big hits and things, I think that's one of the things that impressed various people from Red Bull, the physicality of the game. Well they're into extreme sports aren't they and that's sort of part of it, like cliff diving and skydiving and motorbiking and all sorts of Yeah there's nothing more risky than that is there? But it's a wonderful opportunity for everybody involved, I think I think it's a wonderful opportunity for them to get into rugby.

12:35Obviously an undervalued sport in the world, let's be frank about it. And let's see how it progresses. For me, it's the here and now. It's going to be a bit of an ask, but around the period of the second bunch of league games, around Christmas time, I think we'll be in a far better condition than the early ones. I was going to ask you that. As Alfie referenced, we came up to see you last year, and I remember you saying, if there's a play-off, we definitely won't be in it. There wasn't one in the end. and you did win a handful of games which was better than the season before so are you looking at sort of number of wins and things like that this season or is it one of those where you go we've got to just see how it kind of goes and maybe hit Christmas and reassess or do you have an ambition of saying top six or five wins seven wins whatever to be fair my ambition is to get the the infrastructure absolutely bang on but you know talk about getting the foundations right.

13:33Hence why Red Bull are accessing us this week with their athletic team. The recruitment will be a continuous programme. The recruitment for 26-27 will be starting in the next week or so. So we'll be meeting next week to discuss that. And that's the recruitment of players, staff, everybody. There's been some speculation about my position. My position is very clear. I've been set the task to get as good a performances, help with the infrastructure, help with the recruitment in the immediate. and then we'll see where we go with it. Which I think is great. I've never been the sort of person who relies on a two, three, four year contract.

14:08I work hard. People who work for me work hard. And I think actions speak louder than words. There would be people, Steve, who go, you've achieved loads in the game. So why suddenly Newcastle have got a load of money would they want to get rid of you? Is that a bit... Some people will go, well, hang on, you've done a decent job there. Why suddenly find the cash and go and find a massive head coach? I don't think that's the case. I think what they want to do is, as I've talked about getting the infrastructure in place and building those foundations, I would agree that our coaching can need strengthening.

14:43It's horses for courses, you bring people in. What is really important, and Red Bull get this like no other, is the culture of places. Coaching is one thing, culture is different. The tenure of a coach is generally 18 months to 24 months in most sports. So you've got to get everything behind the scenes right first. And then we can tinkle with who comes in and who sets our game plan. And in terms of the recruitment side of it, what sort of player does this unlock? Were there caps on before where you think, look, with the best will in the world, Lions players, All Black, Springboks, England players are not maybe going to look up at Newcastle.

15:20Whereas now you sort of go, well, hang on, we're one of the most exciting projects in the league. Why not? Does that change overnight, do you think, in that attractiveness? of Newcastle? Yeah, I think it does. I think being resilient and running on low budgets for which Newcastle had to do and you did at Sale as well. And at Sale, you do build a mindset in the place which makes it really hard working and people don't take things for granted. At Sale, once Simon Orange and Jed Mason invested in 2016, we've seen the progression and Alex Anderson took over for me in 2021 and he took it a little bit further.

15:56There are regular a top four side and I don't think you can ask for any more than being a top four side there's two comps getting to the playoffs and then winning it if you can do that so I think approaching players one Red Bull will be you know a brand that people want to be associated with two a lot a lot of the recruitment again I can always use sale as a reference but Jono Ross became a premiership stalwart you know most tackles most rooks it year on year not the flashiest player but every team would want him. He recommended Faf de Klerk, who recommended the Dupriere brothers, who recommend Ludiega.

16:33Who'd have thought Ludiega had come to sale in 2016 when we were languishing at 9th or 10th? Probably one of the best locks in the world. And Faf. And that's similar at the moment. We're talking to players. There are a plethora of internationals who are out of contract for the 26-27 contract year. And it's a year off a World Cup. Some will move, some won't. But I think the process for me is the here and now, further on down the line, the process will be not for just next year, but two or three years after that. Keeping it under salary cap, building crowds, everything that a successful rugby business wants to be.

17:11And do you think as well, with slightly taking off your Newcastle hat and putting on the hat you've worn for a long time, which has just been almost like a salesperson for the league and English rugby and everything else, do you think this is a massive boost for English rugby the fact that as we said before some people would view Newcastle as a headache because it was like we're not sure if the investors got fatigue we don't know if they're winning that many games we're unsure about their position but now it seems like there's so much more stability and hopefully therefore that puts a rocket up all the other nine teams in the league itself yeah it does and I think I think we're on catch-up at the moment just by the the sheer nature of the time scales and we'll be on catch up for this season but i think what their protocols uh in other sports will do in their experience you know nutrition strength and conditioning uh marketing uh management there's probably nobody in the league got those skill sets that they've got so for me it's a two way learning process but i i honestly think we will be learning probably more than red bull will be learning off us who's on the invite list there's a few red bull athlete max verstappen Ben Stokes, Sia Khaleesi, have they all got tickets in the post?

18:21I'll leave that to the Red Bull execs. Your door's always open, you're saying. It'd be good to hear Steve Diamond's name and shoot with them one day.

18:29Alfie: Steve, look, we really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on The Rock. We wish you all the very best for the new season and a really exciting time for the club and rugby in the North East. Thanks, gents. Pleasure. So, Will, that's what Steve Diamond had to say and I think one point that he kept emphasising there was, as we're speaking to him today, the takeover happened a little over 30 days ago this is going to be something that is going to take time yeah and I would be fascinated to know because Steve Dime is very good as a salesman I'm going to be really fascinated to see over the next 18 months two years whether you do get front line England players going up to the northeast in some ways you're thinking why not now they've got the security the money the ability to pay their wages properly like Newcastle haven't had regular England players for a long time and you think if the likes of sort of i don't know finn smith ollie lawrence people like that who come off contracts in the next year or so who've worked with steve diamond who know him well just go fancy a bit of that up there why not why not become the star of this new great organization so they're going to be a fascinating story to track over the next year or so and i wonder also he brought it up himself what the role is for steve diamond there's already been stories this summer about gregor townsend who's now re-signed with scotland they've moved to secure him pretty quickly for yet another world cup so So who knows whether they'll come in and bring in a big hitter.

19:48Maybe not Jurgen Klopp, though.

19:51Alfie: Ben Stokes will give it a go. That is another interesting element of this, though, isn't it? The intellectual property crossover of that whole Red Bull high-performance beast and what that looks like and what it looks like for all areas, like commercially, what do they do with the ground up there? Because that could do some work. I mean, are they going to put a massive energy drink can in the car park and things like that? You know that stadium in San Francisco, the baseball ground, where they've got the Coke can and the big glove? They should have that in San Francisco, you know where the Giants play.

20:25Yeah, yeah. And if you hit the big energy drink, you get a million quid or something. There you go. I don't know why you'd want to do that, though, because you'd be kicking the ball out of the ground. Anyway.

20:33Alfie: Food for thought. I'm not a marketing expert, as you can tell. We'll stick to the news. And part of the other news to start the new season is Thursday nights. Sale against Gloucester is going to kick off the season which as you've said already is because the Women's Rugby World Cup final happens on the Saturday so to have less of a clash with that and earlier on today Will and I spoke to the Sale Director of Rugby Alex Sanderson Well Al, welcome back onto the Ruck Good to see you, how are you? Good to be back, energised, enthused And Thursday night as you say is a way to start the season is quite different, quite exciting I am excited about it They play rugby league at North, don't they, on Thursday nights and always get good crowds for that I'm hoping there'll be a really good corporate crowd even though it's a school night for kids although my lad does play for a local team like Sandbach's team and they're all coming down they've already got the Vimto purple away kits already so they're all coming down so I guess it's probably going to be a test of the hardcore and hopefully we'll pick up a few interested people on the back of the line store and would it be in a Thursday something different for them in midweek and does it make it different for how you have to prepare for it because it's Thursday.

21:42Yeah, 100%. So you try and work to a six or seven day cycle because that's either play on Friday and play the next Friday or Saturday, Friday. So with this one being on a Thursday, we've actually got a bye week in the Prem Cup the week before, which means we can come in and train Saturday, Sunday. Gloucester, slightly disadvantaged because they have got a Prem Cup game. So half of their training squad will be playing. We've got all our guys together. So we'll come in Saturday, Sunday, have Monday off and then building Tuesday up to Thursday and for the lads you know no grumbles like at the start of the season but generally they look after themselves now anyway they're quite professional so big Saturday nights out and hangovers on Sunday are a thing of the past do you it's one of a few innovations isn't it or at least the name of the league's changed we've got rid of E.A.

22:29Ship at the end we've got just Prem now and you've got Thursday start we've got Red Bull now invested in Newcastle do you feel like this is almost like a freshness to the whole thing after a few years after Covid and everything else? Yeah, I do. You know, I think the game continually needs that, doesn't it? It needs freshening up. It needs new insight. Certainly more resources, like we know that. With the World Cup looming as well in a couple of years' time, I think it's all positive for the game. You know, I've heard rumours about potentially expanding the league from a 10-team league to a 12-team league again, which would be fantastic, wouldn't it?

23:04You know, Little Bird told me that Wasse building a stadium down in Kent and might come back into the Champ and Worcester maybe... They're back in the Champ. So it's all gold isn't it from what was dire times a few years ago the future looks a lot brighter, a lot more rosy. Yeah and thinking about, because lots of your guys are coming back from different things whether that's Lions or England or whatever else so when are we going to see Tom Curry, he's had a wrist surgery I believe. Well he's around here now if you believe it or not you might have mistaken him for Ben but Ben's done this gig the last three years so he's going to take one for the family.

23:35I'd take one for the family Tom due to his recovery period we probably won't see him before the Autumn Internationals it'd be really good if we did but I doubt we will so he's likely to go into camp during that time because he's had a wrist operation because he was carrying that at the end of last season he was basically playing without a ligament in his wrist which meant that every time he was going to a tackle it was like dislocating you could feel it clicking in and clicking out super hard like superhuman I mean we already knew this but it's ridiculous to have done that through three lines tests isn't it?

24:11It defies logic really but he's always been one of those guys that can push himself through pain barriers that most mere mortals can't Tom and he's just shown that again operation's gone really well everything on time in terms of his return to play and in all likelihood you'll see him come back during those internationals in the awesome which is great for England I was just going to check on that as well, because it's going to be a bit of a theme with lots of people of when they get their rest, isn't it? Whether it's Maratoji, Tommy Freeman, Tom Curry, guys who played loads of rugby. There's always that debate now that some of them are the elite sort of enhanced EPS guys of when they take that rest and how much club and country take the burden of that.

24:53I guess you'd prefer them not always to miss sale games. how is that going to balance out this season should they really miss test matches sometimes so that it's balanced rather than just all of his club this is an ongoing conversation that we'll have with Steve just by the T's and the I's of the contract that we've all agreed to England have preferential jurisdiction over his medical rehab and his physical development so they get to choose and they should in that sense because they're paying money towards his contract, prioritise the World Cup and internationals. I think that's the end goal when we're talking to Steve.

25:33We want to get him to a World Cup in best physical shape. And we do, and he does, and England do. But it is a partnership. It's literally called a partnership. It has been a much more amenable partnership than maybe what there's been in the past. The worry is if Steve was to go and all that, all the groundwork that we've put in together, where would that go for the next coach who comes in? and you've got to rebuild that again, and you don't know if anyone's going to be as accommodating or as compromising as Steve has been in the past. At the moment, it's up for us to come up with a plan around, say, Tom, over the next two years, or certainly over the next season.

26:05Last year, it worked really well. He didn't play more than three or four games on a bounce before he rested, and he was able to look after himself. And he had a brilliant Six Nations and a Lions. Yeah, so it worked for him. That worked, yeah. And looking back at it, he probably played a few games more than what we would have wanted him to, still under the 30-game threshold, but given the ferocity of what he plays, we were thinking maybe 25 games, and he was pushing that 30-game barrier. So there's still work to be done there. And that's where the conversation comes in. But I'm sure we'll get to a decent compromise.

26:31I'm sure we will.

26:32Alfie: Can I ask what it was like for you watching the Lions tour? Because we were out there covering it and you've just been saying there, if you know well how much Tom can play through the pain barrier and you know the injuries that he's dealing with and nursing. So do you just watch it and kind of think, yeah, that's Tom. Are you there kind of on tenterhooks thinking, geez, he's able to push himself to a place that many players can't? Yeah, just in awe. just in awe of him you know on the back of everyone says it's some of the criticism that he was taking in terms of selection and everyone's going to back kind of the home country players aren't the players that they've watched you know through the teams that they support but seeing him in that certainly in that first test do what he did you know in the style that he played that's Tom at his best with a poor wrist on the back of you know a lot of pressure really as well It was interesting being in that post-match press conference in Brisbane and I asked Andy foul about that and said look Tigeburn and Tom were guys that many people were saying weren't necessarily on their best form and Andy just goes yeah it was interesting that wasn't it I read it what do you think and then he just kind of paused and just went immense and just like he knew that was the kind of level of performance that he'd be able to get out of them yeah yeah we can I mean in every test really weren't they they were like standout performers um he's a good coach and he obviously knows his players um so yeah look just watching back it was it it was a great tour wasn't It would have been brilliant for them to do all three, knowing that.

27:55And I think the weather in the last game kind of favoured some of Australia's tactics, which worked well. And fair game to them. Tactically, they were really smart, weren't they? But I'm just happy with all our England players, actually. Go on. No, I was just going to take one on sale. Are you looking at... It's hard, isn't it? Because, as I think others have said, there's two battles in this season, aren't there? There's getting to the top four and then the new comp of trying to win the tournament, isn't there? you've been knocking on the door for a few years now and got into semis and a final do you look at this season and go we're getting to the point where we need to win it in the next couple of seasons it feels that way because of the squad you've got and the age profile maybe and we all know that squads can be built together and there's a point where you can't keep them all because they start playing for England or get pulled off to France, Japan or wherever else so are you looking at this as like you've really got to nail it in either this year or next perhaps?

28:50Yeah, you know, in terms of us achieving our potential, I know it's a little bit cliche. It's not like it's been failure over the last few years, because clearly getting to semi-finals and finals, you have to be doing something right. But there's an internal feeling that there's probably more in us, and that's the failure, that's the thing that stings, really. More in us probably at the start of seasons, if we're honest. You know, we've finished seasons pretty well, and sometimes you maybe just assume they're going to start the season as you finish the last one and that's not the case because everyone improves.

29:23So we all focus around the start of the season, even with the complexities of international players coming back in on that first game, that's the first game, but making sure we hit the deck running there. So we don't give ourselves such a slog at the end so you're able to maybe rotate a few players, not throw a game, but if you do lose a game it's not like life and death, which it has been because the mental stress of having to back up week in, week out. then you get to the playoffs having been on playoff mode for five weeks or something well yeah nine weeks generally it's been like eight out of nine games we've had to win in the last two seasons and so that last game or the semi-final almost seems a stretch too far at that point you know you want to be on the way up don't you maybe having a little bit of a bounce having a little bit of a poor performance that you can bounce and come off the back off and peak for when you get to semi-finals and yet physically and maybe mentally, we've not done quite our best over the last two seasons.

30:17And I think that starts our preparation for that. It's got to start at the beginning of the season, even though it's a long way from the end. Thursday's a new Friday as well. Thursday is a new Friday, baby Friday. Get the GT, Flake. It's always busy in town, isn't it, on a Thursday? It's just whether people want to come and watch a game of rugby and have a good time there. Look, if Fridays are going to go off up north, as you know, it kicks off on a Friday. we're just hoping to bring some of that buzz start your weekend early at sale get yourself down to AJ Bell keep the kids off from school let them do their own work is this you signing a letter to all headmasters and mistresses going the kids are away they went to sale on Friday stay at school drink responsibly

31:03Alfie: but get yourselves down to AJ Bell on Thursday night all the best for the season, appreciate you joining us thanks very much, cheers guys

31:14Alfie: so Alex Anderson chatting to us there here in the stands at Twickenham I am interested in sale Will we've said it probably for the last couple of seasons certainly last season where it's a side that got to a premiership final here lost the Saracens have been in the top four and in the mix but haven't quite been able to make that leap and you do feel that at some point you've got to shoot your shot yeah yeah it's always the way isn't it and I know for a fact that there's there's a few players that are at the later end of their career who've sort of been convinced to stay for one more shot with sale but then also i suppose some of those academy players are like your roebucks your carpenters your reeds of ashira poke for jaw bevan rod at some point four or five seasons yeah does it become hard to keep all of those guys definitely when we've seen that with harlequins 15 years ago we've seen that with all sorts of other teams haven't we and the one team that kept them all together were maybe fiddling the books a little bit so there we go but it's It's one of those things where the rhythm of these premiership teams, they do have a shelf life.

32:16You sort of do need to get your squad together with your brilliant academy boys and win something in the space of five, six years. Otherwise, you lose your chance. And I do feel like Sale are getting to that point where they kind of need to win the Prem now. So let's see if they can do it. I mean, they've got a pretty decent fly half for an amazing summer tour, didn't they? Who's not exactly going out quietly in the back end of his career, is he? George Ford?

32:37Alfie: so they're the sort of team that you feel will be there or thereabouts it's whether they can make that next leap and it was really interesting what he was saying about tom curry tom yeah tom curry and he's he's actually as we're recording this sitting about 10 rows down in the stands from us with a massive cast on his right wrist and we knew that tom curry had a wrist problem before that lines tour and it's one of those funny things isn't it alfie where when you ask people about it on the lines they were oh no he's absolutely fine yeah and then hicks anderson comes on he says his wrist was basically dislocated for all the three tests and it was clicking away you think wow i mean there's there's one part of you who goes this is crazy like how is this guy allowed to do that but he's wired up completely differently from me and you which is why he's really good at rugby and we sit with a microphone in our hands and also why andy farrell selects him for the test matches because you know when you need a certain level of performance he's the sort of guy that's going to give it but it also maybe leads us on to the Lions players and the rest period because we've both spoke to Phil Dowson and have been asking him about the Saints contingent I spoke to Pat Lamb in regards to Ellis Genge so the Lions players I think have just come back this week as we're recording it into training and pre-season training they had five weeks off post Lions tour they will all be available for round three the derby round yeah so long as long as they're you know fit enough and and whatnot but for Tom Curry it seems unlikely that we're going to see him before yeah and that's a that's a bit of a blow but I mean there might be some more cynical sale fans who goes oh right so he's back for England is he but look this is the the brave new world of the PGP and players who are managed by England he had his surgery he wanted to play in the Lions of course he was desperate to do that and played in all three tests and was brilliant and so then had his surgery and then at times that he'll be back for England and the news with the others is it's most of them Lions if Fit will be back for week three and I think that now includes Elliot Daly who obviously we remember fractured his arm brutally in the Reds game yeah in Brisbane all that time ago and he should be back in week three as well but the one that's going to be slightly different is Owen Farrell who because he had a bit of a nothing season last year is going to be back earlier so he's available from week one so I can imagine seeing Farrell 10 on the back of a shirt in black and red week one you'd imagine yeah yeah on that friday so yeah it's going to be a fascinating one with those lines guys because the burden has always been on the clubs to rest them whereas really if it's a partnership it's called the professional game partnership england should have to let them miss a test or two because i remember us counting them through at the end of the Lions tour Mauro Otoji Tommy Freeman and Finn Russell particularly were miles over the suggested game limit of 30 matches and shock they all were the season before that as well Tom Curry got very close and just nipped under it and in Ireland Tygburn was well over it as well but they have a slightly different agreement but every season we're told oh yeah they'll get managed next year they'll miss more games next year so the proof of the pudding is in the eating will they actually do that and if they don't will there be fines will there be ways of punishing these teams because otherwise it will just keep happening and we'll see fewer of these players in years to come which is not what anyone wants the really interesting thing from england and the rfu's point of view is does the conversation go down the route of well men's internationals is literally what funds the game in this country so they say well and they now contribute to their contracts and as we've said on quite a few pods back to last season England manage their medical don't they and SNC so decisions like that come under Steve Borthwick and the guys at Twickenham don't they not the clubs anymore but it does need to be a partnership because I can imagine if it keeps being that players just miss club games all the time and never miss tests particularly the slight the like fourth of four November internationals if you know what I mean the slightly easier game the Fiji one perhaps this time the clubs are going to start going right so this isn't a partnership is it they're basically central contracted, which is sort of not what we've been told from the start.

36:43So anyway, I think that's another narrative for this season, isn't it? It will be a talking point.

36:46Alfie: How those guys are managed. 100 % it will be a talking point. You mentioned Owen Farrell there. New signings. There's quite a few interesting new signings. Zammett, you've already had him on the pod. So we've had Lewis Reese. Efficient work from you. Zammett on the pod. Yeah, that was a couple of days. No, a couple of weeks maybe after being back from Australia, went down to Bristol. But they've also got Tom Jordan, who's here today. That I think is a pretty fascinating one. You've got James O 'Connor. 3 potential there or back line completely you look at Bristol's potential back line what could it be it could be Randall at 9 McGinty is your 10 Van Rensburg Revovo then Ibetoy Rhys Samet Jordan back 3 that's alright isn't it it's not bad you've got James O 'Connor at Leicester at Tigers Lenny Ketow Tom Hooper at Chiefs yeah Ketow's interesting because he's a sort of one year thing well and also Joe Schmidt gave the impression that Hooper wasn't going to be much longer than that when we spoke to him on the Lions Tour but like Tom Hooper was good in the Lions Tour wasn't he that third test And a very good rugby championship.

37:40And Iketal, Aussie have got better and better since that Lions, which is maybe changing some views of how the Lions were and all that. But yeah, there's always some decent movement around the league. And then like Tigers have picked up Jamie Blumeyer and Northampton have picked up Callum Chick. I think he might be quite a sort of unsung hero-y type signing for them, replacing Joano Augustus, who's gone from Saints. So plenty, yeah, plenty to get excited about.

38:04Alfie: Another one that I think was here today, which I think might go under the radar, but if Gloucester play the sort of rugby we saw them play last year then Ben Loder I think could end up being a really good signing Was it the Stormers wasn't he for a while having left Irish so yeah there's loads to get excited about and Thursday night as we said to Alex Anderson Thursday's the new Friday you're going up there I will be there yep looking forward to it looking forward to a bit of Thursday night rugby something as Alex Anderson said rugby league does a lot don't know whether it's necessarily going to catch on but we'll see so that opens the season massive season for the pod let's say Why not?

38:37Alfie: Absolutely. Always. They all are. They're all big games. They're all big games. Yeah. We just focus on the next pod. But we've talked about all the exciting things that are happening potentially this season. And we've done, what, 40-odd minutes of our pod. And we haven't even mentioned Bath. Who were the story of last year and the defending champions. And look like they're stronger, don't they? With Santi Carreras, Chris Harris, Henry Arundel, Dan Frost joining them. Hardly lost anyone either. On that point, do you think this is going to be the season then, given that they're already the defending champions, that Bath really become the hunted, in that they become the team that everyone else looks at and thinks, how on earth have you put that squad together?

39:17Alfie: You're the defending champions. They already were there last season. Well, they were, yeah, but they have the title to go along with it. It was hilarious when, in pre-season, Bath put out on their social media their squad list, and they listed I think three second row and then about 15 back row and there were some guys in there like Ewan Richards who does play second row quite a lot but it's almost like England these days where you just go they could just pick like any of about 15 guys in the six seven or eight shares and be fine but I'd be massively surprised if Bath aren't in the final let's be honest like they've got the squad they've got people like Ollie Lawrence coming back who missed the back end of last season because he snapped his Achilles here didn't he and during the Six Nations so they're definitely the ones to beat but I'm almost more interested in Bath and how they go in Europe because they screwed that up last season where they were trying to be slightly clever about resting and rotating and lost at Benetton didn't they by a point and then that meant they got Menster It worked out for them though didn't it?

40:15Alfie: Of course it did Then they won the Challenge Cup and had a far easier back end of the season You feel like they're the strongest English challenge for Europe aren't they? And if Bath can't do it we get back into conversations of is this the preserve of top 14 teams which obviously Northampton slightly disproved by having a weird season last year where they were pretty rubbish defence of their premiership title but then they made the Champions Cup final and were disappointed to have lost it so yeah, Bath are going to be fascinating we haven't mentioned every club but we will through the season won't we?

40:46Absolutely, and let's finish off then Oh and Farrell's back, we haven't even said that we've done loads of Owen Farrell in Australia

40:52Alfie: We spoke about him a lot I said he was going to play 10, there you go, in the first Friday up at Newcastle. Yeah, exactly. OK, so we've heard from Newcastle, the big news story of the summer. We've heard from Alex Sanderson on Thursday night rugby as the premiership returns. Let's get an overview of the whole thing. The CEO of Prem Rugby, Simon Massey-Taylor.

41:16OK, a quick switcheroo then. We'll be back at Twickenham in a moment, but we've now legged it over to the Prem rugby offices in town and swapped our cast list slightly as there's another welcome back to make to the pod. Alfie's been handed a 20-minute red card and is replaced by Alex Lowe. Hello. Are you all right? Good to be back on. Feeling refreshed post-Lions? Feeling good now, yeah, ready for the start of a new season. It's always a funny one. You're in this bubble on a Lions tour. It feels massive. Then it goes quiet from a men's rugby perspective. and now we're at the launch of a new season, new Prem season.

41:51Looking forward to it. Yeah, and to help us do that, launch the new Prem season, we're going to talk to Prem Rugby CEO, Simon Massey-Taylor. Simon, nice to have you on the pod. Hello, thanks for having me. And I've got Prem right already, haven't I? Yes, you have. Well, the Gallagher Prem. Gallagher Prem, yes, sorry. It's all caps, so you need to shout it. Prem! How's your summer been? Because obviously we were busy in Australia and you were busy doing all sorts of rebranding and everything else. It's been a bit mad. Yeah, so since the brilliant final that we had back in June, there was a big focus on getting Red Bull over the line for Newcastle.

42:26So that was a big bit of news over the summer and brilliant for the league. We've also now been focusing on the future of the league, the future structure, and you would have read a few things around that. And so that's a project that's gathering pace over the next few months. and then it's been getting ready for this season and it's funny I've been doing this job now for nearly four years and your body clock definitely kicks in in terms of this time of year and it's a mixture of anxiety but excitement again. We've mentioned the rebrand already we've got a nice new ball in front of us on the table here which is all Halloween colours for the rebrand so can you talk us through as much as you like detail as you like about why we're now Prem rather than premiership and what all went into that yeah so i think that the feedback we had certainly coming into the role and i talk about myself and also a chap called rob calder who came on board as our essentially our sort of marketing and growth officer um and and the general feedback was that people weren't really sure what the premiership stood for it seemed quite bland um seemed quite corporate it wasn't necessarily how fans were speaking wasn't necessarily how how players were speaking and then equally in terms of what we were trying to do in articulating the league and the sport we got a lot of feedback through fan research player research of what we need to be we need to be bolder we needed to play on our strengths and the fact that it's a highly athletic and highly um you know it's a brutal sport you know the the the fact that we're a contact sport is something that we should be celebrating and there will be fans who look at the rebrand and go you've basically just chopped off half the word the championship's done the same they're the champ but clearly there's more thought that's gone into it than that so can you explain some of that bits of it of like why you settled on that name why do you didn't change it to something completely different I think we spoke with Rob Calder on this pod a couple years ago about it and said whatever you do please don't make it something silly and you haven't done have you yeah well I mean that that bit is more evolutionary than revolutionary we you know wanted to speak how fans speak and you know when you look at how you guys have described it how commentators describe it you know when you when you see fans talk about it on forums a lot of people do call it the prem um or the champ as well actually so it's it's just playing back that so when we kick off on thursday with sale gloucester and we'll get on to the the thursday start thing as well because we've spoken to alex anderson about that already in the on this pod what are fans going to notice that's different maybe with the whole presentation of it and you're working closely with tnt the broadcasters on all that aren't you but has the sort of prem rebrand unlocked things now that are going to look and feel very different about how the season is for fans yeah i mean that just generally the branding sticks out and it's great if you think about the fan experience i mean on friday we've got newcastle red bulls versus saracens i can't wait to go up there and see what a difference uh red bull will make in terms of that fan experience we've got a little glimpse of it in the Prem Cup last week and so I think everyone's leaning into this in terms of fan experience and what we're trying to do with the league generally is raise standards across the whole board but specifically in fan experience we're also doing a weekend where we've got big games and so with those again the clubs are investing a lot in that fan experience because they're marketing to a bigger audience they've got a lot of people there sometimes will be the first time to rugby games give them a good experience and they'll come back Newcastle that's been a big change over the summer we've talked to Steve Diamond on the pod about his side of it can you give your side of it and I went up there the other day myself and it just seems like a huge wave of positivity and more smiles and faces players up there were saying they didn't know whether they were going to come back at the end of last season and now they're probably part of one of the most exciting projects in the league so from your side how do you feel about all yeah i mean so if you sort of fast forward to now and that energy that you are seeing from the players from the fans up there as well you know they had over 9 000 people turn up to their first prem cup game and that's broken all records for them um and so they're already re-engaging with their their old fan base their current fan base and hopefully new fans as well and and there's excitement about where they're going to go um but yeah this this the story from my side goes back a couple of years actually um i i had a relationship with red bull when i was at the rfu so i brought them on board to be a sponsor there and and it it didn't quite work with them really they sort of tried things with sevens and they did stuff in the the england 15s environment and what they did was really valued by the way by eddie jones and the england team but um they didn't feel like they sort of properly owned something um and they concluded though that rugby did work for them so it meets a lot of their values um it's exciting sports energetics or everything we're talking about with the brand in terms of athleticism and and just the sheer confidence of nature is really exciting for a brand like red ball so essentially the conversation started you know what else could we should be do within the sport and that moved into the conversation about buying um a prem club and this ebbed and flowed and and um but all along that they had a very strong thesis um that that this could be really good for red bull um and where it sort of it built up um they've got they've got a big um investment arm to their business it's a pretty incredible business red bull there's sort of three different parts to it broadly there's the cans business which is doing incredibly well um i think they're going to sell about a billion cans in the uk this year which i think is therefore the single biggest um soft drink unit in the uk now it's incredible okay um and surprisingly i think only i think three or four percent of that's from the on trade so this sort of perception that we probably we have that it's a nightclub and stuff like that it's it's a the energy drink category is massive and they're doing incredibly well in it they have rebel media house which is their their content platform where they produce all these amazing videos with their athletes which obviously reinforces the whole brand rebel gives you wings and um and then the third lesser known element of it is their their investment arm where you know you'll see the formula one teams they've got football teams that they've got within europe and they've invested in ice hockey various other things so they have this model around investing in teams in high performance and they through those investments they become experts in in high performance they they know what it takes to become a high performing athlete they know what it takes to develop young athletes and they've got I think proportionally if you look at their their roster of young athletes on their teams they've got some of the youngest teams in in the leagues that they compete within so they they do know their stuff within that which is really exciting clearly if you're if you're Newcastle I think they were the best moments for me in this whole thing especially given the challenges I had coming into the role at the beginning where for each of the three clubs that had to go into administration for each of those it was us the RPA the Players Association and the RFU that had to go into a room and speak to players principally around you know the fact that their club was going to administration which is a terrible thing to have to do and plenty of tears and yeah it's sort of because you're is it ending of people's careers or potentially for some of them and and also you know people are obviously clearly massively passionate for the club that they've played for growing up with and that extends to staff members as well so if you fast forward to this summer where we hadn't actually done the deal yet or they hadn't done the deal yet but they felt confident enough to present themselves to to staff so to players and you know everyone from the groundsman to you know the team were in in the room at the time at Kingston Park and they did this amazing presentation of their vision for rugby and their vision for Newcastle and the North East and how they work with players and athletes in other areas.

50:27It was just incredible to see an amazing atmosphere within the room and that just now starts this brilliant new era for them. So really exciting. What's the reaction been from the other owners around the premiership? Because Newcastle have gone from being, as someone said to me, the league's biggest headache to now one of the most exciting stories. but as you just said they tap into a network of elite high performance sport and i wonder whether you have other owners around the league who thought they thought they were the big dogs in town thought they knew how to run clubs and high performing teams and now they look at the the arrival of red bull and go wow we may need to recalibrate what what we're investing and what we're doing to raise our own standards to match you know a company with two f1 teams well i mean In general, I think it's not lost on anyone that the more competitive a league you have and the higher standards you have, the better the league's going to do, the more fans it's going to create, the more money it's going to bring it.

51:27So I think everyone sees that big picture and the impact that Red Bull could have on that. And so I think everyone is excited. It does bring another competitive team in the league. And we've had six different winners in six different years. And even the folks that haven't won the league recently are knocking down the door. You know, you're looking at Sale, you're looking at Bristol. and then now you've got Newcastle Red Bulls in there as well. Like that is, people would die to have that level of competition within their league. So I think we're really lucky generally in terms of competitiveness in the league and the fact that we've now got another player in there is brilliant.

52:02But then also more importantly, I think it validates everything that we've done, everything we've built, everything we've had to stabilise and move on with. The fact that an investor with a calibre of Red Bull has come in can only be a positive thing for the other clubs when they seek their own investment. It sort of underlines, as I mentioned earlier, the vision for a franchise league. What's the latest, what can you say about where that project is at the moment? We've written about the ultimate desire, as we understand it, to be a standalone ring-fenced competition. I use the term franchise, I don't know if that's what you use.

52:42and we read recently about a project of expansion to get more clubs in what's the latest what can you say yeah i think we've we're not using words like ring fencing or even the word franchise really in terms of what we're trying to create i think things have evolved quite a lot since since since we started this project but the fundamental is that we need to create an environment where investors of any sort invest in english professional club rugby and so in order to do that you need to create the right conditions and what's coming out of this work we're doing is it's all about standards and driving higher and higher standards the higher the standards the better the product in terms of our desire to expand yes i think there is a desire to go beyond our current 10 teams we need to do that in a managed way and again it needs to link to this whole concept of standards not sort of making up the numbers but we also need to work within a wider system you know we're not just a um uh you know standout single product like the nfl you know there is a there's the champ um but also importantly there's the pwr as well that and the women's league and we're right in the middle of women's world cup final week which i think is has created a huge impact in terms of women's rugby women's sport specifically the red roses and there'll be a lot of pressure now on pwr clubs to move on to the next stage in professionalism Now, there's a significant overlap with PWR clubs and our current ownership of Prem Clubs.

54:09So the need for investment, the need for higher standards, it's all linked within that as well. So we're working towards that and hoping to get a model and answer in the next few months. The last sort of six, nine months have been interesting with stories about Rebel Leagues, R360, things like that coming up. We've both written about that, Alex, haven't we? with all that you're building do you feel like you are creating something that can give players confidence that they don't need to jump ship to something like that they can stay in the more established traditional league because it's now much more stable than it was three years ago yeah i think we've definitely moved on from the narrative that is that existed a few years ago in terms of instability coming out of the pandemic we've done a huge amount of work in in helping stabilize the league that's whether that's deals with broadcasters partnerships with the rfu all these things moving towards ensuring that we've got more investment coming to the league red bull being the proof point of that so i think that that in itself is a really positive signal but you also need to as a player you need to think more broadly than that and it's not necessarily just current players now who may have the opportunity to go and play elsewhere you know whether that's in france or japan but it's it's future players as well and and what we're really proud of in in the english system is everything that starts off from the relationship that uh academies have with with schools and colleges and and grassroots clubs how they look after them through the academy system how they develop them into professional players and look after them i think and and generally how we look after our players alongside the rpa um and being part of the system so there's there's a huge sort of wraparound piece here for for players that are playing in England which we're proud of we think is strong and we're not standing still we need to move forward with it but um yeah I think all those things are quite important.

56:02R360 still exists as a hypothetical rival on the horizon they're still talking about launching their league next year but for now it remains sort of an entity rather than a reality I wonder how much their arrival and all the talk around it has concentrated minds, the kind of the disruptor element. Has it helped you achieve anything that you wanted to achieve but maybe were encountering obstructions along the way that it's just concentrated minds in evolving and modernising something that work you might have wanted to do that was tricky to get across the line? Yeah, I mean, there's an element of copy and paste of what we put in place as a plan back in 2022.

56:45You know, we needed to position ourselves in a more modern way. We needed to raise standards and create a better experience for fans. We needed to generate more investment into the league, Red Bull, and create something that fans want and is competitive. So I think there's a blueprint there which isn't just exclusive to rugby. You know, this happens across all sports in terms of how you need to modernise things and raise the standards. and we've been working at it hard over the last you know three or four years and we're still on a journey with that because it's really hard by the way you can't just you know it's easy to sort of click your fingers and stick a few powerpoint slides together and say this is great and but actually the reality of actually getting there building fan bases um and everything else that comes with it um you know that takes some expertise that takes some partnership that takes a lot of work and effort a couple of other things we've already touched on on this pod but let's get you on is Thursday start obviously kicking off only a few days time and we kind of know that some of the reason of it was to avoid the women's final wasn't it so you don't have any Saturday games this weekend some Sunday some Friday one Thursday do you feel like that's got a chance of becoming a new slot or is it a bit of a one-off what's the feeling about Sale Gloucester on Thursday I think we're not going to know just from one game to be honest I'm really glad we're giving it a go and and fair play to Sale for putting their hand up to give it a go obviously it's not in the you talk about sort of body clocks in rugby thursday isn't a body it doesn't trigger it is in france isn't it exactly but not here yeah yeah and and that works um thursday night slots during the season uh you need to think about player turnaround right so you can't sort of you need to avoid five-day turnarounds um so you so you need some sort of synchronous synchronicity if that's a word uh of the season but um we're really interested to see it go i think people were sceptical originally about Friday night games if you remember and now they've become almost their own brand for a lot of clubs if you go and tell up at the Stoop for example on Friday night not only is you know there are a big crowd there sellout crowd there but it's a different vibe and so so I think people have tuned in to to not just playing at Saturday at three o 'clock so let's see that and yeah I mean maybe we do it again next season just to finish it off and tie a bow on this bit of the pod if we were looking sort of 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 years ahead what do you want the Premiership to sort of represent and Prem.

59:11Oh yes sorry Prem it's literally written right in front of me it's written everywhere in this room there's pens, there's notepads you'd do that to me Prem yes what would you like the Prem to look like this is such an interview question isn't it where do you see yourself in five years Simon it's that kind of are we playing in America have we got 16 teams in the league with two conferences what's the sort of big grand vision of where Prem Rugby can get to in that period perhaps? I'd like to think that we've expanded the number of teams and equally I'd like to think that the quality of those new teams and also the existing ones has just gone up a level and that in itself I think is what fans want and I expect it to continue to grow like we always said right at the beginning of this whole journey that where club rugby was compared to international rugby there was too much of a gap.

1:00:02I think we've proven that the potential is there, all the metrics point in the right direction. It clearly gets harder and harder to get those next fans and next fans. But I think partly through a function of everyone working together, investment and various other things, I think we'll get to a really good spot. Who's going to win the league? Are you allowed to say that? I mean, I love all my children, but I think I'd bet on... I'm not allowed to bet. No. I'd say that Sail Sharks have got a really interesting That's because you want another winner That is certainly the case but also they've been to three playoffs in a row got to one final like it's in their muscle memory now so getting there and making one step further I would love it Well the listeners will have to wait for Alfie and I's predictions at the end of the pod but for now Simon Massey-Taylor thank you very much for your time and good luck for the rest of the season.

1:00:58Thank you.

1:00:58Alfie: So Simon Massey-Taylor there, as you would expect, Will, upbeat about the new season, about where this league finds itself and we're looking forward to it. Another season of the pod, try and keep everyone across it. It'll be good. Yeah, I think we probably did more pods than ever before last season where we were doing two or three a week during the Lions and everything else and we're not going to stop now. I mean, we don't actually know how the season's going to end because we still don't have any Nations Cup fixtures or anything like that. So who knows where we'll finish, but where you've already started it off with all the women's world cup stuff but we're going to keep the ball rolling through the prem through the autumn six nations and everything else so hopefully get around do some specials in-depth interviews we might even start videoing stuff and putting it all over social media who knows the future is ours on the ruck yeah we'll see the problem with the women's world cup is i don't know whether my season is yet to end yeah or if that's started in like a week after you came home yeah exactly so it's all the man of steel from the lions as we left it in sydney so you just keep going i remember actually genuinely i remember the first episode we did for last season about the pgp i remember in my intro i said something along the lines of this season basically doesn't end and that has been how it is we've just kind of blurred it did for me but not for you because you work harder than me yeah no no you are quite a holiday that you're entitled to take and can't take it the rest of the time uh listen really looking forward to the season ahead the of course the end of the the women's world cup prem rugby season getting underway and before we know it we'll be back in this place for all the november internationals as well what let's this is to clip up for when we ever we do finish the season so and we can we will try and remember this but should we play this at the end okay we get to the end of the prem alfie reynolds this season's premiership champions are um bristol bears okay he says hopefully i'm gonna say bath again back to back let me go for my heart is always going to be with bristol but i will go with sale so you changed your answer already you just said it and you should change it immediately now we just run for moving okay this is gonna be a long clip we're gonna have to replay on the ruck at the end of season let me go of sale and my next one is going to be who's going to go the furthest in the champions cup from the prem teams uh you have to go of bath don't you really yeah I think you have to.

1:03:12Alfie: I don't know what else you would base it on. I feel like Saracens as well, but I'm going to stick with Bath. Yeah, I think so. So Bath are going the furthest. I'm saying Bath are going to win the league. You're saying Sale are going to win the league, but you've also said Bristol, just in case. Well, no, Bristol is more just backing your city. BS3 till I die. Yeah, something like that. Okay, all right. All right, well, there we go. Well, email us if you think we're wrong. TheRuckAtTheTimes.co.uk. I'm sure lots of you will disagree. That's the email address. you can get in touch with us throughout the season we are back ahead of the new prem rugby campaign good to be back with you talking all things domestic rugby and we will see you next time