Prem semi-final drama! Why didn't Bath kick a drop goal?

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1:35Will Kelleher: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. I'm Alfie Reynolds and what a pair of semi-finals we had in the Prem over the weekend. To look back on those and to preview a Northampton against Exeter final, we have Will Kelleher.

1:50Alfie Reynolds: How are you doing, Will? All good. Yeah, Prem's all right, isn't it? we complained about it a bit through the season but it's all all good on a weekend like that isn't

1:56Will Kelleher: it well i tell you what two awesome semi-finals you were there on friday night for northampton against leicester as was charlie morgan all right charlie hello pal yeah i was the awesome way to

2:06Charlie Morgan: kick it off and i actually caught the second half i was away out of the out of the house for the first half of exeter bath and sort of it's one of those where you turn on you think this pulls away anymore it's not going to be that interesting and it was interesting it was phenomenal yeah i just

2:21Will Kelleher: Interesting. Two very different semifinals in many ways, but two brilliant semifinals. So Northampton 45, Leicester 31, Bath 26, Exeter 27. 26-10, Bath were leading at halftime. But maybe before we get into the details of those two matches, lads, this was the very best of the Prem, wasn't it? We often highlight the negative stuff and some of the issues in the league, and we'll continue to do that because it's part of our job. But when you get a semifinal weekend like this, it just totally delivered, didn't it?

2:49Alfie Reynolds: yeah I loved it and I was sitting next to Charlie and Charlie you'd been to the the world for road east midlands derby and I would turn to you before the game because I've been to all sorts of blowouts like we've talked about this on the pod but almost all the sort of like massively one-sided games recently I've been at and they've been a bit flat and millions of tries that don't really mean anything and stuff like that and I turned to Charlie and I was like oh this is different and it was like really loud loads of shoe army loads of fireworks and stuff at that proper jeopardy meant something massive game semi-final and you're like well do you know what it was actually like this at welfare road but i just loved it because and like it's it's really difficult in our job isn't it because we think that everything we've just seen is like the best ever or the closest ever or wasn't that the greatest x y and z and that some of it is probably because we sort of want to be there at the great stuff and so there we go look wasn't that amazing like France, England, Six Nations game and things like that.

3:44Alfie Reynolds: But I just loved it because it contrasted so heavily with what we have been seeing for six weeks. And maybe some of those games where you're sitting there in October or something and you're going, what does this really mean? What's the sort of, I don't know, meat here? Whereas there's just meat everywhere over this weekend. It was great. It was full meat, wasn't it? It was great, Charlie, wasn't it?

4:04Charlie Morgan: No, it was fantastic. Yeah, as you say, I'd been at Mazzoli's Welford Road for Leicester. And I thought that game would have scarred Saints. I remember somebody, Adam Witte of BBC Radio Leicester, asked me just before we went out, said, look, come on, call it right now. I said, Leicester by three, because I just thought they would have the squeeze on in the tight exchanges. And then Northampton started like a train. and I just I love I wanted just to highlight one moment that kind of set the tone in such an exciting way it was Jack Van Portfield clearing Northampton had kept Henry Pollock in the backfield for the first of his 20 between 24 and 26 carries depending on which um data provider you're looking at but first of first of a million millions of carries but Blamaya smashes Finn Smith and there's a poor pass and Saints are on under the under the kosh a little bit with a ruck on their own 22 Archie McParlane, 21 years old spots the defence overfolding and snipes, passes it, it's a bit of a rush pass, but Pollock gets his second carry and then he's away playing Hutchinson in and then a few seconds later Tom Litchfield scored and that tone was funny because to sort of paint a bit of a picture the media bench is quite set back and sometimes all the fans in front of you are standing up so you have to stand up too we were doing a lot of that, weren't we?

5:24Charlie Morgan: And that's great as well when you're almost physically invested as well because your heart rate has to go up a little bit because you're doing those squats effectively to see what's going on. But no, fantastic. I set a great tone and then just carried on. But the rivalry element that you're kind of hinting at there, Will, was really important. I'm glad that there was at least one away win given how we set up, given how we previewed. Yeah, so it's definitely good to have that. Rob Baxter spoke well about how much things are geared towards home teams. So for his side to sort of beat those odds was great.

6:00Alfie Reynolds: Only the seventh ever away win in the playoffs. And so I was away last week on the beach in France, listening to your pod talking about, is this the closest or most evenly matched set of semis ever? And I was sort of, and maybe it's because I'd literally just been looking up because I was writing about Exeter the week before, but I was like, oh, those 2017 semis were like, score in the last play of the game, Exeter beat Saris. and then there was a wasps one by a point i think as well in the other semi and he thought well maybe it's that and i was actually a bit skeptical listening to your you guys chat about that and going like oh i don't know i'm just not sure exeter really got it in them to actually do it and like i think i think saints are just gonna go through uh tigers so maybe not but i'm really pleased to be wrong because it was it was great like maybe they weren't the most evenly matched semis ever but they were both brilliant and that was enough like as i think lots of people around the league and stuff are probably looking at that and being like how do we bottle that more often in the rest of the league and it's so unique isn't it because it's everything on the line there's no real other game in the season other than the final that means that much where someone gets dumped out and someone goes through to the big bigger game but everything all the cocktail around both matches was just perfect and like I wrote it on Friday in the report it really just showed the best of English rugby and the Prem and what it can be, I think.

7:19Will Kelleher: Well, originally after the Friday night game, I thought it's going to take some beating for us to not lead off with Northampton Leicester and then step forward, Bath and Exeter on Saturday. As you've mentioned, Will, seventh ever away semifinal win in 46 attempts, by the way. That's how rare it is. And for all of their special moments, I mean, you look at Rob Baxter and that side and he has been with them for half his lifetime as a player, as a coach, the rise into the Prem and European champions and all of that sort of thing. But it's one of their great days, wasn't it? At the wreck, it has to be that away win in extraordinary circumstances.

7:53Alfie Reynolds: Definitely. And also because of where they've come from. I know they built and built and built from 2010-11 when they came up and then had six finals in a row. But then just the whole double winning team went pretty much. And to the point where last year they were ninth in the league. It's amazing. It's another quirky stat that we've got for this weekend is this final is last year's eighth versus ninth. So it's like next year's final being Gloucester-Quinn's, isn't it? And you think, oh, not sure that's going to happen. And maybe the Saints are in a false position. They were a Champions Cup final team, weren't they?

8:25Alfie Reynolds: But with Chiefs, you look at that and you go, that just shows so much about them as a club and Baxter as a coach, I think. Like forging that sort of brotherhood and never say die attitude to keep Bath out for 41, what was it 43 phases again stats may vary recollections may vary but um that's remarkable only teams that are tight and well knitted and want to fight for each other do that and it's something that chiefs had lost completely last year and and there's another i think it was andrew mckenna from talk sport made this or someone else perhaps made this point on on twitter rebuilds don't need to take four years lads like that's 12 months and a complete uptick in fortunes and i'm delighted for him because i think we all think bax is a great coach and a great bloke and he looked visibly emotional at the end i know it was his wedding anniversary as well which maybe

9:20Charlie Morgan: played a part in here he did very well to keep his composure and make that the first thing he said on tnt sports lovely stuff very classy very classy touch what fascinated me about that second semi-final was how similarly it followed the path of the regular season meeting at the same ground and I was at that game and there was Exa had done phenomenally well to haul themselves back in and in front and Greg Fislow was amazing in that game as as he was in this game he is a he is some player playing with a playing with a kind of fractured cheekbone or some some sort of facial injury they are made of if ever you need reminding that these guys are just cut from a different cloth as as us wormy journalists that is uh that was a good that was a good reminder but yeah he was awesome in that game and bath got over the line in that game and for it to be a different there was a great and there was a great rob baxter quote after that game in january where he said do you know what i'm not he didn't feel he was gutted about the way exeter had started that game but he was so full of pride in how they'd come back and he said you know what i'm going to watch this later and it's going to be like i'm watching steve mcqueen in the great escape and because because of how much i'm going to be caught up in this game i'm going to think we jump over the barbed wire and then we're not going to do it and this time this time his team jumped over the barbed wire which is which is just great it's just the phil dowson said something after the game to us will where he said this is a season now going into it into its 49th week and he was just he was reiterating that these and that obviously includes pre-season training but reiterating that these these campaigns and marathons and you have to manage emotional highs and lows and and the form that the highs and lows of form of your individual players so well as well and we've got two really cool finalists the fact that they were eight and ninth last year is is mad isn't it yeah i mean for

11:15Will Kelleher: exeter as we've said just one of their great days incredible comeback and away semi-final win but it's impossible for us to speak about this game without speaking about Bath. We'll come back onto Exeter in a moment when we preview the final. Do you want my hot take on Bath, which I think this game kind of encapsulates really, in that I think it sums up where, this semi-final sums up where Bath are this season, which is at their best, which they were in the first half, they are still very, very good, super powerful. You looked at one point that you thought, blimey, they could absolutely blow Exeter away here.

11:51Will Kelleher: But, and this season there is a but, their game is more limited and they are simply less consistent, which I know, Will, we've been speaking about, but it kind of summed it up for Bath for me this season.

12:01Alfie Reynolds: Totally. And I was watching it at home through the prism of my fiancée, who is a Bath fan, who was standing next to the TV, sort of being like, kick the goal, kick the goal, kick the drop. So yeah, like sort of living every other Bath fan's journey in those 40 odd phases where you've got Carreras going into the pocket, then coming back out of the pocket. You couldn't see it on TV, but people in the ground have said that there was a two man overlap on the right wing. They were both calling for it. I think might have been Arundel and Cock and the Seager. The ball doesn't go that way. This obsession, really, with the pick and go is hoisted them by their own petard, isn't it, in the end?

12:39Alfie Reynolds: And you don't want to be Captain Hindsight at all, but we've talked about this all year. We've talked about this in the winter when they were playing wet-weather rugby and it was working. They were grinding teams down. They did it in a really similar fashion, albeit they couldn't have taken a drop goal in the quarterfinal that you were at, Charlie, in the Champions Cup where they beat Northampton. like they scored that pick and go and that was when they had to score a try because of the points difference but this time it didn't work

13:06Charlie Morgan: was was do you think a bit of a warning that maybe they didn't heed was the um the Bordeaux game definitely just it felt like they had to expend so much energy to score those tries at Bordeaux and Bordeaux are do not get me wrong they they their defense was a huge reason why they won that Champions Cup against against Toulouse the previous weekend and they'd been awesome in their own 22. But it just looked like Bath didn't have the intricacy about them to unpick sides close to the goal line. And that's not easy to do. Eddie Jones was always at pains to say, look, that's when the defence fans out, and you have a longer sort of front line, and it's really crowded, and it's hard.

13:51Charlie Morgan: It's hard work. But that's a big area. that felt like a big reason that they fell short in Bordeaux and they haven't got over the line here.

14:02Alfie Reynolds: So I'm going to borrow Rob Baxter's quote that he said a lot in the last week or so. It's never one thing. He's said a lot, isn't it? But so many things have built to this for Bath, I think. Number one, losing Lee Blackett, shocker for them. Great for England if he's given his head and is allowed to design a great attack there. but poor timing mid-season, have to scrabble and find a new attack coach, not great. Finn Russell being unavailable for the semi-final, shocker. Santi Carreras is a fantastic test match 10, has played all season at 15, is not the backed halfback. Next thing, there was a shot with maybe about 10 minutes to go or maybe closer to that because it was when Spencer went off, I think, where you had all of the leaders of that Bath team on the bench.

14:53Alfie Reynolds: and look you want them to start right but is there something here with maybe particularly Bath or English teams that they hardly play any knockout rugby like so Bath won three trophies last year so they have played knockout games but and they've played a semi-final and won them a couple of times right but this is a club that have not played much Champions Cup knockout rugby at all in the last 20 years because this was only their second semi-final in 20 years this season and And maybe the players within that team are not used to winning games at the death like that regularly for the whole of their career because they're playing league games.

15:32Alfie Reynolds: And league games don't look like that. They don't finish like that. They don't have those. Or if they do, there's one in every 10 weeks or something. So I don't know what that means for Exeter on the other side, which is why it's a half-baked theory that they can defend that and play sort of knockout rugby brilliantly. But is there something in that that these English teams don't have regular knockout fixtures that end in that manner? So therefore don't know what to do when it's tight like that, perhaps?

15:59Will Kelleher: I suppose my immediate question would be, are teams in the URC getting that regular knockout rugby? Are teams in the top 14 maybe in their playoffs because they're longer?

16:10Alfie Reynolds: More of them going deep in Europe, I suppose, is the answer to that.

16:13Will Kelleher: does it speak more to the overall style in the prem possibly like high scoring loads and loads of tries not your typical knockout rugby nervy tense those fine margins at the end but I don't think any of that none of that excuses why they didn't just kick the drop goal no I guess it's

16:30Alfie Reynolds: just that so actually Baxter was quite generous to Bath at the end wasn't he and he said I wasn't surprised at all because why would you go away from something that's worked for you so much in the season and there's an amazing i'll try and get it up there's amazing stats from uh the guys at ultimate rugby which talks about the regular season and so it doesn't include yesterday's match on saturday um bath made 421 pick and goes through the regular season and the next highest prem team did 256 so it was obvious to our eyes right but it was and it was working and they scored over 100 tries in the season Northampton have scored 110 but doing it in a very different way so it's one of those where you go well why would you go away from it but the kick was unmissable absolutely unmissable it to me it reminded me of Marcus Smith's position when he hit that goal against Ireland two years ago like you could not miss that right in front of the post the extra defense when you look at some of those phases were not ready to chase George Ford talks about he's a great drop goler talks about surprising the defense a bit there was five or six occasions where they could have done it and come right and actually i'll just watch the end of it again there's the maybe the 39th phase of it caputupolotu carries the line and it sort of on the first foot it really looks like he gets very very very very close to the line if not on it and then the next phase comes around it's seller he gets held up but carreras after the final whistle goes it's like flapping his arms essentially probably saying for f sake everyone it was on out here there's so much in that charlie isn't there no so much and i think there are a

18:11Charlie Morgan: few things can be true at once here i thought i was nodding my head along with rob baxter when he said why wouldn't you back a big area of your game having you know the point i've just made they beat they beat um exeter in that very same manner in those like in basically identical circumstances I also think though that they just needed to have more options from where they were they needed and which is plays into the drop goal because if you've if you're set up you can be set up to pound the line and your back back line can be set up to exploit space out wide at the same time and that's what George Ford's talking about when he's talking about that variety and how a drop goal can be a surprise option the one that springs to mind remember the one that Owen Farrell got against Fiji in the World Cup quarterfinal, I think.

18:59Charlie Morgan: It looked like England were pounding flat, pounding flat, pounding flat, and then suddenly, I think it was Mitchell on the pitch, spins it back to Farrell, who nails a drop goal. It all happened so quickly, so quickly that Fiji, it's really hard to get off the line to pressurise it.

19:15Alfie Reynolds: New Zealand too, when Ford got England back into that game and then won it. There was a couple there, which was suddenly, he suddenly popped back, doesn't he?

19:23Charlie Morgan: he's quite flat there George Ford is fascinating on loads of subjects but he's fascinating on drop goals as well and I remember one point and this is by the by sort of more drop goals generally rather than this situation he said if you miss the first one it's hard because because there's the crowd factor as well but I don't know another thing to throw into the mix maybe is that do you remember Finn Russell being asked about drop goals and quite and laughing and saying never kicked one in his career

19:48Alfie Reynolds: is that right he might have done now

19:51Charlie Morgan: it's a handful But yeah, but it's not very much. I think in this, again, and again, this plays into the backing your super strength thing. This Prem season has just the currency has been tries. But two more things I wanted to mention about this multifaceted situation. One is that most of the time, you will have a penalty advantage after eight or nine phases, because the defence will stray offside, and you will have that cushion. and that's what the case was for Marcus Smith's drop goal against Ireland. So you have that little comfort blanket. The other thing is that Billy Seller gets hit high, doesn't he?

20:31Charlie Morgan: And they're a little bit unlucky that they don't review that scoring sequence because I think they have to go back for a penalty or, you know, if not a penalty try. So, you know, there's a lot in here. I find it really hard to absolutely nail bar for not going to drop a goal because you back your strengths of your squad. But I think the key point, the 9 and 10 that was on the pitch, one guy who's come in this year and has moved around a lot of positions and is only at 10 because Finn Russell's not there. And then the 9 who has been thrown on for the last few minutes, having just come back from injury, I think the previous week.

21:10Charlie Morgan: And I think that's just what got them in the end.

21:12Alfie Reynolds: Two extra points. And another example I've thought of about not going for the drop goal and it working is MCG, Lions second test. Like a penalty or a drop goal wins that game by a point, but Russell throws quite a speculative pass to keep that phase going and then eventually Keenan scores in the corner and it's all glory, glory. But if they hadn't scored that, the Lions, you would have been like, what on earth are you doing? It's a Lions second test, win the series. so it's fascinating I think it's fascinating the sort of like modern psychology and also it's fascinating because it completely changes when you get to the world cup and everyone's dropping goals but yeah I think the very last point I'll make on this unless you want to keep going on it is the great tens and the the experienced guys take that whatever the situation is there whether it's a pass to the right or a drop goal they take that by the scruff in the neck and Russell would have done in whatever way you would think and Ford or others would have done if they were in that scenario and I'm afraid that's that's where the criticism is for Carreras isn't it and it's not all on him maybe it's inexperienced forwards ahead of him like Seller and Turpilotti who've sort of not been in that situation but if you're the halfbacks there you must take responsibility and control of that situation surely yeah I think it's so easy isn't it for us to sit on here and

22:33Will Kelleher: criticize them but I do think given where they were on the pitch that period where they were basically in front of the post or just to the right of the post and it looks like an absolute chip shot. I think you have to take that. But as we say, it's easy for us to sit here and say that. Just before we get onto the final, lads, we do just a word on each of the defeated semi-finalists. Charlie, maybe on Leicester first of all. Appreciation here, I think, for the job Jeff Parling has done in season one, right? Picking up from Michael Checker, a Leicester team that got to the final and lost. I think the expectation from most people was Leicester would drop off to have them in the top four again and being super competitive against a very good Northampton team in the semi-final.

23:09Will Kelleher: I think he's done a hell of a job in his first year.

23:12Charlie Morgan: Yeah, maybe I'm speaking for myself here. I'm glad you said that because I made the point that Jeff Parling said afterwards, look, let's be honest, everybody wrote us off. And it was in a way that it wasn't somebody manufacturing a siege mentality out of nothing, as some coaches do around the world. It felt quite earnest. And what struck me about that was that he's not repeated that over the course of the season. So he's obviously, he might have said something internally, but they've just gone about their business and kind of defied expectations quite understatedly, maybe, or just used it as fuel sort of internally.

23:47Charlie Morgan: I made that point and Stuart Barnes said, well, actually, I thought they were the third best. I thought they'd be the third best team in the league behind Northampton and Bath because, look, they lost last season's final narrowly. I do think that the amount of turnover that they had the experience they lost the fact that they went in they were kind of rushing to get that 10 that fly half succession sorted I think they've done really well what I would say is that there's a bit of turnover to negotiate for next season as well they're losing a few they're losing O 'Connor Parise Parise in the backs George Martin Hanrao Liebenberg being massive players for them I'm missing someone there Peter Hewitt is leaving their their attack coach who's got them humming this year so there's it's going to be another season where they've got to sort of consolidate but I'm they'll be in and around the business and they always are in around the business and they do so well and some of that is this crop that they've got with Chesham with Chesham as a lead the leader of it I think he is his stock has risen this this season he's been he's been phenomenal I think generally though Tigers fans should be optimistic and pretty proud of that season.

24:56Alfie Reynolds: The one slight caveat I'd have, which is a sort of backhanded compliment maybe, is that they've got so much out of players who played above their reputations, let's say, who've had their greatest ever season, like Bailey and like Whiteley and like Sell, obviously, Hassel Collins perhaps as well, that you hope that they have another one of those seasons, but it's not guaranteed, is it? And like, as you said, Charlie, Chesson's been epic, but they are losing guys. It's interesting, we were doing this in the car on the way back, but we don't need to go through all of it now. But it's interesting to look at what teams you think on paper look like they're going to get better and which ones you go, oh, I'm not sure they're going to be a better team next year.

25:40Alfie Reynolds: Maybe that leads us on to Bath because they're losing some too.

25:43Will Kelleher: Yeah, go on, round us off on Bath then. We've mentioned a lot of this already, but Lee Blackett's absence so him leaving and joining England has had a massive impact. They're losing Thomas de Toit. He's been the best player in the world in his position over the last few seasons. Alfie Barbary's departing. Bath, final word on them, Will, at the end of the season, beaten at home in a semi-final?

26:03Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, that's got to be tough to take, hasn't it? And we're going to get another new winner. It's not like a seventh different winner, as in a different club, but it's going to be a fresh name on the trophy from last year this time. so that proves yet again that this is a really hard trophy to win back to back but we thought Bath were going to be a dynasty team we thought they had the weapons and the squad to do it back to back if anyone could because the talent they've got and the depth they've got and the quality they've got I think Will Stewart being lost for most of the season probably just about did them in the end maybe Russell obviously missing the last few games of the season is is a shocker terrible timing there but to have won the treble last year and then to end with nothing this year and lose two semi-finals that's brutal and it doesn't make them a bad team but you go we we say this every year you've got to shoot your shot there's nothing guaranteed like I remember writing about the semi-final and talking to the old bath lads who made it in 06 and you go these things don't happen regularly.

27:10Alfie Reynolds: You must take your chances. And heartbreakingly for them and their fans, they just didn't.

27:16Will Kelleher: Yeah, fascinating summer ahead for Bath. No doubt a few questions for them to try and answer. We'll have a quick break here and then the other side of that we will look ahead to a mouth-watering final this coming weekend.

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27:57Will Kelleher: Get started for free at ActiveCampaign.com. Hey, Pablo Torre here. As a sports journalist, I've covered global sports for many years now, And there is one thing that I can promise you. Nothing compares to the World Cup. And this time, it is even better thanks to McDonald's. You have the chance to take home one of nine legendary cups when you order the FIFA World Cup meal. The cups feature some of the biggest legends in football, like David Beckham, Thierry Henry, and Ronaldinho, Christian Pulisic, Lamine Yamal, and Alphonso Davies. Right now, get one of nine legendary cups when you order the FIFA World Cup meal only at McDonald's.

28:35Will Kelleher: At participating McDonald's, only for a limited time, while supplies last. All rights reserved. Copyright 2026. McDonald's at the FIFA World Cup 2026. Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With ACAST, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace, choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format, then watch the data tell you it worked.

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29:26Will Kelleher: So Saturday, Twickenham, the Prem Final, always one of the best days in the English rugby calendar. Northampton against Exeter. Will, Charlie, my question for both of you is how many tries do you need to score to win this final?

29:42Alfie Reynolds: Oh, if you're Chiefs, it's about eight, isn't it? Potentially. No, it's interesting. So I've written a piece on Sunday, having spoken to Dowson and Finn Smith after the game, which I thought was interesting because it was about the psychology of trying to play their way in the final and not clamming up, which in their last final 24 they won the final saints but they were a bit annoyed about how they did it and it wasn't quite the way they wanted to play and they did against 14 obviously and it took a wild break from george hendy to break that game open didn't it which was a lot of credit to bath and there's always two teams in these finals obviously but they have learned a load from in the same year going to croak park and again clamming up not firing a shot and coming at it too late and dill dowson was funny wasn't he charlie i'll leave out some of the swear words but he was like i've studied a lot of other sports and you go you look at like a tennis player they get to match point and then they double fault and they poo their pants was the the pg version of what he said and you kind of go that sporting psychology thing's interesting and finn smith built on it um and i guess the the sort of nirvana for how you play in a final is bordeaux in that the Champions Cup final, isn't it?

30:54Alfie Reynolds: Where you just put all of your game on the pitch, you blast the other team and it's done by half-time. I feel like there, and I don't want to write Exeter off at all, but I feel like because of how Saints play, there is a potential that that happens on Saturday. I'd sort of, as a complete neutral, would love it not to because we want it to go the deep as possible, extra time, pens, whatever, make it as dramatic as possible. But I think the way that Saints attack space, move the ball, play at that tempo. I mean, McParlane's been exceptional at fishing guys around rucks and Finn Smith making stuff out of nothing.

31:30Alfie Reynolds: Freeman was amazing on the wing. Pollock probably had his best game for a year maybe. And you think there's a danger, especially because they've got another day to rest after Chiefs, that Chiefs have already played their final and Saints pull away with it. I hope it doesn't happen. What do we think?

31:46Will Kelleher: Do you not think there's something about Exeter this year though, like so battle hardened and just in the fight like as I say at halftime that semi-final at the rec you probably thought that they were out of it but there's just something about them this year like they've really rekindled whatever has always made that club special that there's fight and there's dog in them like I almost struggled I don't think at any point in the game they will ever think that they are out of it like they have real belief I think from this run that they've been on. So I actually think the opposite and I suspect we'll get a really close final.

32:19Alfie Reynolds: Well, I'm also basing this off my favourite stat, which is that the third team has never won the league. It's got to change at some point, hasn't it? It's like my other favourite sports stat, which is so tragic, was that until Real Madrid did it in the mid, in late 2010s, no one had ever backed up winning the Champions League, had they? It was always a different winner every year. So there's some of those stats where you think that it feels like it shouldn't really matter, but obviously does. so basically I'm saying it's impossible for Exeter to win the league you clip that up send it to Rob Baxter and say you've got no chance you might as well not turn up lads and we will play it to them on Thursday when we go down and chat to them will yeah I'm obviously joking there we want we want it

32:56Charlie Morgan: to be great don't we Charlie can you put audio files on dressing room walls probably put that

33:01Alfie Reynolds: get that playing they've got like a they must have like a an interactive smart screen where they can go and here's just an episode from the ruck there we go and they're like what's the ruck oh no we We all listen, don't we? Come on.

33:12Charlie Morgan: So that spirit that I think you're hinting at there, Alfie, let's go back to, if it wasn't the first game of the season, it was a very, very early round of the Prem season. It was the first. So at Franklin's Gardens, Exeter are 33-7 down against Saints. And bearing in mind, obviously, this is a season where they're coming off the back of a really disappointing season, having finished ninth. They brought in a lot of new players, some of whom some of whom have been rough diamonds as is as is Rob Baxter's way but some of whom are high profile signings and you feel like Rob Baxter because he stayed and a lot of coaches have well other coaches have gone it's his reputation on the line like that half time I remember asking a few players about what was that half time like and it was it was kind of it sounded like it was you know it's pretty forthright as you'd expect but Exeter came back to draw that game 33 and could have won it I think they had definitely had a did they have a disallowed try as well to win it certainly Jack Yendall when I spoke to him around the turn of the year he was still filthy that they didn't win that game that's what they've almost created that within them um within this season a narrative that they are not they've they've been whatever almost whatever situation they're in after that first day they were in worse they were in worse on that first day sorry I mean and they've just being able to haul themselves back they're so fit they i think one thing that maybe rob baxter or size coached by rob baxter and we should say dave ward has made a made an amazing um made an amazing impact there um having come in at the back end of last season and he's just been been fantastic but one thing maybe that exercise don't get enough credit for is that tactically they're quite they're quite different they throw different things at you they move the ball really really well some of the some of the ways the way that they flooded through bath you know when it gets close range they've got so much muscle about them and almost that's come back it's like um like sort of retro in a retro way they're really good at that again but they're really they're really intricate with the way they move the ball um one thing i would say as a guy that's kind of um spanned the eras i think the presence of henry slave keeps them calm in those moments and he will be him and baxter together will be a really big factor in how they i just feel like they are it can go one of two ways will kind of like they they could have played their final already and fall flat and because i think saints will be in the right headspace having more mostly because they won it two years ago and this group has silverware to sort of or a lot of this group has silverware to sort of um relax them and i think they can go one of two ways for exeter which The first one, which would be quite sad to see, is if they have played their final and they just fade away a little bit.

36:00Charlie Morgan: And the second one is that they go, we've got nothing to lose here. And if they are still in the game, if they're still within, what Rob Baxter said, didn't he, is 16 points isn't a big lead anymore. If they're still within 15-16, if they're within three scores at the end of the third quarter of the game, sorry, it's going to be a great finish. It's going to be a great finish.

36:22Alfie Reynolds: Saints let in tries. They let in five tries on Friday night. They do get broken. They just score more readily than other teams, don't they? But I think that the other, I guess, bit of the Exeter thing is just, yeah, that kind of power of persuasion of Rob Baxter and I think Slade. Like you saw him when they have those huddle moments, like visibly fizzing in front of the team. And we've always sort of pictured him or boxed him perhaps as quite a languid, chilled out dude of a character. But he's not really at all, is he? Like when he plays his best, he's quite confrontational and fiery and feisty, isn't he?

37:04Alfie Reynolds: Even though he has this such like relaxed, lovely manner about the way he plays. and maybe almost like putting the head tape on helps with that because you go oh yeah he comes like slay he's up for it sort of thing but then the the i remember the other thing from that 33 7 33 all draw thing that you're talking about charlie is that baxter his version of events basically of that half time sounds a bit like he basically went lads you promised yeah yeah don't don't let me down like what was all that pre-season stuff where you said yeah yeah yeah definitely we're going to work really hard for each other and it's like boys come on I just I mean look for a long time I've had a lot of time for Rob Baxter I think he's fantastic but and I remember him maybe three two years ago he's he's very open and like candid and brilliant when we talked to him week to week but saying basically he was talking to his mates about how good would it be to do it again like good good coaches can build a group together and win something once but it's the It's the Ferguson thing, isn't it?

38:07Alfie Reynolds: And he's not quite at that level in terms of like five different teams with one stuff. But to then completely torch the whole thing and build it up and do it again is exceptional. And that shows what an amazing coach he would be if he were to do it.

38:20Will Kelleher: Well, on that point then, let me give you my perhaps quite contrived narrative for both of these sides heading into the final. And you can tell me whether you agree or disagree. But from a Northampton point of view, win this final and it's them cementing themselves like almost their dynasty that this is the Northampton era. Bath might have something to say about that and they'll no doubt come back next year, but it would be second title in three years. Plus they've reached a Champions Cup final in that time. It's kind of Northampton sticking their stake in the ground as the flag bearers of English rugby, I suppose.

38:52Will Kelleher: And from an extra point of view, is it the regeneration of the dynasty as you've just been speaking about, Will? It's this team that sort of climbed the mountain. Most of their, pretty much all of their players that did that have departed with the exception of, say, a Henry Slade, but this is them getting back there again and getting back to the top. What do you think?

39:10Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, I think on the Saints side, and again, it was a little line I put in my report, which I hope wasn't sort of like recency biased, but this probably would be the best, if they do win another title, the best sort of professional era version of the Saints, like this mini era. Like I know they won the Heineken Cup in the noughties and have made other finals and won a Prem in 2014. But after that, they kind of drifted, drifted whereas this has been a consistent era of success albeit dropped to eighth in the prem last season and I think it's just a great English rugby story Saints because they don't even spend to the salary cap like how good is that really for the quality of their coaching and the way they've clearly made players much better there through Dowson through Vestie through all of those guys and also the way they play like I feel like we all sort of as a kid have this like no like no one goes around the field in under 10s going like I just want to grow up and watch box kicks like obviously they do a bit of that as well but I just think there's that kind of extra bit with them like the perfect bit in sport is winning stuff and winning it in a great way which Bordeaux have kind of captured in the Champions Cup at least and so if Saints were to do that that would be epic and then yeah on the chief side i think it would just rubber stamp rob baxter is one of the great english coaches right wouldn't it to he would probably probably close to calling it a day a couple years ago close ish to the point i mean not not that he was ever like out the door but maybe would start maybe having a glass of wine with his wife and going like do i need this and he's always talked about that he wants he wants to be the the old man in the stands who can drink a cider and be like welcomed back to sandy park and it all would be fine and not awkward and weird and and i've always wondered like what's the what's the post exeter story for baxter and like i don't think he will just suddenly resign or retire or whatever if they win the league but he's in statue territory if they do that isn't he like i feel like the more name all over the stadium so you might as well have a statue at the front as well yeah i feel

41:15Will Kelleher: like the more interesting question is what's the post baxter era for exeter like yeah it's the other way yeah he is such a totem of that club isn't he we can't forget that they're on the

41:25Charlie Morgan: verge of a takeover as well so what what an exciting what an exciting time what amazing timing for all for all that to happen um one point i want to make on saints just to add on what will was saying and i appreciate i haven't got a great um history of facial recognition on this podcast but i'm fairly sure um mark mark hopley the head of academy was in and around the the um the coaches just as um it was ticking over to full time on friday night and what an amazing job he's done because that their production their um talent identification how well they move players into the first team that underpins absolutely everything and um i think i'm right in thinking that george george furbank was up for media he's up for media this week again he was up for media last week and uh phil dowson had been on praising george furbank for the manner in which he'd sort of handled the fact that he's leaving and going to harlequins and how he hadn't sulked anything like that and I asked George Furbank what was your mindset and he went well we just got out in the open early on and the thing is I know that this club are going to push through young players so they've got George Hendy they've got James Pater they've got Eduardo Tadaro it's almost like remember him remember he was the story of the first half of the season he did his ACL unfortunately on the verge of six nations he'll come back next year another academy product like Henry Pollock before him who was identified not just as somebody that would be a promising player but somebody that could come in and seamlessly fit in their recruitment patterns get sorted all all the way all around that you know they they're more confident with letting established players leave because they know that the people coming through are really good and ready crucially like this this is it's a virtuous circle and they're riding that at the minute which doesn't mean it's easy it means that a hell of a lot goes into it and And this plays into maybe a little bit, it plays into how difficult it is for this competition to be retained.

43:26Charlie Morgan: It should be difficult to retain if the salary cap is working well. And I think that's what we're seeing. And I'm like you, Will, I can't praise both of these sides highly enough.

43:37Will Kelleher: Awesome stuff. Well, let's hope we get an absolute cracker of a final on Saturday. It's set up pretty well. We will be there at Twickenham podding afterwards from the stands to chat about whether Northampton or Exeter get that victory. And we'll also be bringing you a preview pod this coming Thursday as well. Another very quick break. And after this, we will finish today's pod by having a chat about Mauro Toje. Is he going to be rested this summer for England? OK, Will, Charlie, final section of the pod today. I wanted to have a quick chat about Mauro Toje. Many of our listeners and readers of The Times would have seen the reports and the questions being asked of, is Mauro Otojo going to be rested this summer and not play for England?

44:18Will Kelleher: They've got their matches against South Africa, against Fiji and against Argentina. Steve Borthwick previously had said the conversations were ongoing. I mean, what do we know about this? And I should say as well, we're recording this conversation on Sunday. On Monday, England are going to be naming another one of these training squads, which will include players from the teams beaten in the semifinals over the weekend. So this thing could move quite quickly. But what do we know? And I suppose how much is it influenced by maybe the second rows that you guys saw on Friday? Alex Coles, Oli Chesson, George Martin all playing and all playing really, really well.

44:51Charlie Morgan: Well, we understand that it is a decision that is going to be influenced by who else is available. So it feels like a big step forward towards Itoji being definitively rested for this summer, at least partially by the fact that George Martin and Oli Chesima going back in will we presume go back into England camp after going out in the Prem playoff round in that game they were both phenomenal Alex Coles was very very good particularly sort of just so tidy from restart so mobile around the pitch and he let's not forget he was a he's had a really good season all in for england so the fact that those two are available means that they have quality in that position it means that they can pivot to having cheson at six or coals at six they can have that bigger sort of hybrid player and have more line out certainty um with that kind of configuration of a back row it feels like i wouldn't be surprised to see a pivot away from the sort of three sevens um but that means that england can now do that without a toji they can do all the this this it's a good it's a good idea to rest mara toje for a load of reasons you keep him fresh the other thing that we sort of understand is that steve borthwick is mindful of him being absolutely raring to go and and as fresh as possible for world cup cup year which is next year you know that's coming around fast so it feels like we're moving towards that certainly and yeah and the fact that the fact that the fact that the way these that eastman's derby went suggests that it's more more likely to happen the three specialist locks that they had in last week's training camp were nick azikway and hugh tizard from from um saracens who've been around the england setups tizard's played england a a bit um and arthur clark who they really like so they i think with itoji going as well the other knock-on effects are that you're you're you're you've got this opportunity to give yourself more leaders develop more leaders and we've spoken about how well chesham's doing there for Leicester but also more options as well and they wanted to get I think Arthur Clarke made his debut against USA didn't he but they've wanted to have a look at him around test matches for a while so it just feel it just feels like we're moving towards that and and Friday night was

47:08Alfie Reynolds: kind of another step in that direction I know if Alex was on this pod he'd disagree with me but I do think it's a good idea to rest marrow and and I think Alex's point which I can make on his behalf is that it's not a great look for the England captain to be missing test matches. That doesn't seem to be the way the PGP agreement should have worked. But I think I slightly disagree with that because I think if it is a partnership, then the player has to be rested by the club and their country. And the DORs were talking about that on the BBC pod the other week around the awards night. And I think I kind of agree.

47:45Alfie Reynolds: But the other thing in here, which is PGP related, I suppose, or shows perhaps a lack of confidence and conviction in their decision making is that this has been sort of like a maybe for ages and no one's grasped the nettle and just gone, he is going to be rested, that's it. It's all a bit sort of, well, we sort of want to, we sort of feel like he should, but it's box away and we're not playing very well and he's a captain and oh, Arthur Clarke, I'm not sure about him and oh, let's hope Martin's all right. It's just all a bit, it all just looks a bit kind of, I don't know, lacking in conviction.

48:20Alfie Reynolds: Like the other great teams in the world, like Scott Barrett's on a sabbatical this year. They just go, he's not playing this year. Done. The box would go, yeah, Ezebeth's not playing. That's it. We've got four other locks. Ruin Norkia, he'll play. That's fine. Like, I don't know. Just a lot of things around England just seem to come from a bit of a place of like, are we doing the right thing? I think so. and that's the I think a good reason to I think he should get rested but it's all the decision making just seems a bit muddled around it

48:47Charlie Morgan: do you think this is part this is teething problems isn't it because these these enhanced these enhanced EPS contracts of which Maratoji obviously has won these are relatively new things and kind of why it's topical as well is that Rob Baxter Mani Ferro Boso spent last week with England came back to Sandy Park to watch extitutes from the stands enjoying himself which was enjoying himself which was how cool were those scenes but Rob Baxter didn't rule him out all of this is kind of very pointedly been worked out between England and Exeter but Manu Ferraboso has had has had an episode before of fitness where it hasn't gone well it was a shoulder right that they delayed delayed delayed because with the hope of getting in better without an operation and then realized that they had to have an operation so these things are just it just feels like there's such a kind of adolescent stage with it they we've known that it could be a good idea if it's handled well they've now put them in place all of these policies can they work well well guess what they're teething problems and i think alex's point is that he either needs a rest or he doesn't i think he does need a rest but he's either going to get one or he isn't and that isn't that isn't totally certain yet or was or wasn't last week it might might be more certain now as i say with um with um cole's going cole's going so well with Chesham and Martin going so well and being available now my my very quick

50:10Alfie Reynolds: next take and we'll do loads of this I'm sure Alfie over the summer is not great for the nation's championship that you're gonna have probably an England captain Maratoji 100 kappa not being available and others probably and like I think that in France they've already reported that despite Bordeaux not being in the barrage the Bielberet and Jalibert are probably not going to go and play the All Blacks away again. Like, if this is going to be the elite tournament that the organisers want it to be, they need the best players to play. But rugby doesn't work. Episode 158, isn't it? Like, there are competing demands for these top players and they must rest.

50:46Alfie Reynolds: We can't be hypocritical and say, they're playing too much rugby. And then the first time that they're suggested there's a rest, like, oh yeah, but not now.

50:52Will Kelleher: Come on. My question would be, if you're resting Marrow, why aren't you also resting Tom Curry? Well, yeah. Well, Tom Curry's played less, I guess, but it's because he's been injured. Played less this season, but he's been injured and he has such a massive long injury.

51:05Alfie Reynolds: They might rest Underhill. There's a word that Underhill needs a sort of tidy up surgery over the summer. So that he'd be another one. But then another interesting one, Spencer, isn't it? I know he's not a lion, but he's been carrying stuff at the end of this season too. And it seems like if they want, if they, they would like to rest him, but it's where the Mitchells fit. Do you trust like a McParlane or JVP to start against a box? Who knows?

51:26Charlie Morgan: Ellis Genge is one for me as well. Similar circumstances. is it's Finn Baxter's had a recurrence of his foot problem which means he's had surgery again which means he's definitively not available for the summer and you've got Ellis Genge kind of going straight into England camp when we know he's had a little bit of a calf issue he played a lot of a lot of minutes because because he is really important because the depth below him at loose head specifically isn't isn't sort of as strong as as it is kind of at lock for example that's what i mean about all these moving plates and it including the start of a nation's championship and including the fact that steve borthwick needs some if not results he needs some assured performances all of this together makes it quite difficult to have conviction around those calls like resting your captain which is a really big call so yeah hell of a lot to think about they

52:18Alfie Reynolds: could still feel the back five of the scrum that looks really good though doesn't it like they could have what in watch it whichever order Martin Chess and Coles Earl maybe Curry or Pollock or someone at seven like or Pepper like I know he's injured at the moment but Fizzlao yeah I mean how good was he on Saturday yeah so there's talent there isn't it's always the thing with England there's always there's always talent there's always players it's just can they get them to actually play properly

52:43Will Kelleher: well see if we get any clarity on it maybe on on Monday when Steve Borthwick names another training squad will Charlie will leave it there we'll see you

52:51Alfie Reynolds: Thursday we'll be heading down to Exeter yeah let's do it I've got a mad week I've got what we call in the industry or we do we I don't know a few of us say a secret squirrel over the next few days which is taking me to a country I've never been to but we'll leave that for now and then okay Sandy Park Thursday let's do it happens weirdly I have I used to go down there all the time I haven't been down there for ages so I used to go to university that way so love it let's do

53:15Will Kelleher: it that'd be good we'll have a thursday preview ahead of saturday's final and charlie see you at

53:23Charlie Morgan: twickenham i'm guessing on saturday you will do mate top man all right good stuff will charlie

53:27Will Kelleher: thank you to all of you for listening if you want to send us an email the email address is the ruck at the times.co.uk this has been the ruck the journalist's rugby podcast from the times and the sunday times

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