Red Roses glory as England win home World Cup

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1:25Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times, coming to you on Saturday night with the thumping noise of the West Fan Village at Twickenham pumping away in the background. I'm Alfie Reynolds, Elgin Olderman and Alex Lowe are back alongside me because England, the Red Roses, have won the World Cup on home soil. We have been speaking about this, Elgin, for years and years. As we said on our preview of the final, pretty much since the final whistle at Eden Park, eyes turned towards a home World Cup

1:58Elgan: and England have done it. They got there. As we said on the front page of the Scrum on Saturday morning, it was blooming time that England won this World Cup and they've finally banished the hoodoo. They've lost six World Cup finals in total and this all-conquering Red Roses team have finally won it again. The first time England have won it since 2014. Now 33 matches unbeaten, extending their world record as well. It was what they needed to do. And they did bloom today, didn't they? It was their best performance of the World Cup so far. I felt the semi-final, they were a bit edgy, a bit clunky, not quite as slick today.

2:35just I felt every area of the game they were dominant um Ellie Kildun's try after I guess a slightly rocky start to me just infused them with the belief that they needed and then the pack went to work their strategy and their execution was outstanding and it always felt to me like they were out of arms reach of Canada Canada came close so they'd scored when they were banging on the door instead of knocking on they'd have been it'd have been closer and England would have been out to 14 but even then I just felt they dominated so many areas that there really wasn't a window for Canada to get back and and take the win it was that very brief moment wasn't it Alex that

3:15Alfie: you mentioned there when Hannah Botterman was still in the simbing Canada had scored one try and you were thinking if they could get another score and convert it all of a sudden out of nowhere really completely against the tide it would have been a one score game but they weren't able to do that what was your guys feeling on the match my immediate thought was that from a Canada point of view and we've spoken about them this world cup and i don't mean this in a patronizing way but i think they've done brilliantly to get to this point and get to the final and some of the rugby they've played has been sensational but my gut feeling was this was a lesson for them that your margin for error against the red roses is tiny and with those mistakes the kind of knock on the set piece didn't function and england controlled the game and punished them but little aspects like

3:57Elgan: in that semi-final against new zealand they were almost flawless when it came to discipline they They gave away hardly any penalties throughout the match. But when you're up against someone like the Red Roses, you give away one penalty and suddenly that's, you know, 40-meter loss, line-out, scrum, England can just tighten the screws in that way. I think what Canada really needed to happen, we knew they would start fast and they did just that with the first try of the game from Asia Hogan, Rochester. And they just needed to keep that going to almost get to a stage where the Red Roses, they pulled away by so much with such a blitz of a start.

4:27Elgan: But as it was, the Red Roses had also scored a try within the opening 10 minutes and thereafter it was only really heading in one direction. They needed to build doubt and worry into the minds of the Red Roses and they made the perfect start to that end and that to me was why another piece of Ellie Kildun magic was so important because not only did it electrify the stadium but I felt it came at the perfect moment to just allow the Red Roses to regain their footing and just go, okay, well now we know what we can do, we've got the magic and we're just going to go and, I guess, impose ourselves on Canada.

5:03This isn't an exact parallel, but we were doing live blogs through the game. And as I was watching Canada, in a broader context, I was taken back to the 2019 World Cup and the England men's team, who had to play as near a perfect game as they could to beat the All Blacks to make the final. And then they just couldn't climb that mountain again. and they needed to perform like that in order to reach the final. And watching the Canadians today, having watched them play a near-perfect game to beat the Black Ferns in their semi-final, that they just couldn't deliver that again against the might of England, just as that England men's team couldn't deliver against the might of that Springbok side.

5:52And as the game went on, particularly that first 25 minutes, As England pulled clear, I'd almost got a fourth try to make it impossible for Canada to come back. That to me felt like a parallel that Canada had done just so brilliantly in their semi-final, but they couldn't get there again, whereas England were able to raise their game again, I thought.

6:14Elgan: That emotional level was something that John Mitchell himself talked about in the weeks. Obviously, he was part of the coaching staff for England in 2019, and he said that was something he'd learned. You've got to fill up the emotional tank as well as the physical tank.

6:26Alfie: You speak about Elie Kildun. I totally agree. I mean, you look at some of the big moments in this World Cup from an England point of view. The semi-final against France, which was a tough match where they were tested, were a bit nervy. She had some game-breaking moments to take the game away from France. And you look at the way Canada started this game. Five minutes in, they get the first try. All of a sudden you're thinking, whoa, OK, this could be really interesting. and another moment of magic from Ellie Kildun to put them into the lead.

6:51Elgan: But by her standards, she'd had quite a quiet start to the tournament, just by dint of being the World Player of the Year last year, by dint of being the fan's favourite, the one that inspires the biggest roar here at Twickenham before the match. And then when she had that injury as well, that head injury against Australia, you thought it just perhaps wasn't going to be her tournament because prior to that injury, she was having an absolute stinker of a performance as well in that Australia game. But yeah, she's the one player out wide that really gets fans off their seats. And yeah, there's two tries in the semifinal.

7:24Elgan: And then that score to just ignite the fixture today. She came good when it mattered in the last two rounds. But actually, the character of this England team is, she's the showgirl, the face of it, if you like. But that semifinal, Meg Jones, there's so much grit and power in this team. I thought Meg in the semifinal, with the turnovers she was winning, the defensive performance outstanding and today again the the England pack as they were three years ago in the World Cup so dominant I mean it must be it must be horrendous to be scrubbing down against against those guards because they are they're not just individually powerful but they they just as a unit are they marmalize anybody and in the back row um were outstanding too Zoe Allcroft I know Sadie Kabea got got a player of the match I think it could have gone to any of a tight five and it could easily have gone to Zoe Allcroft who was relentless at six and that in a lot of ways you know there's a lot of fans here with glittery cowgirl hats on and there's a lot of that but the character of this team is power and grit and fight and it's sort of embodied personified by a lot of those players I've just mentioned.

8:35Alfie: And that was such a key area as well it's one of those games wasn't it where even an England knock-on it got to the point where you're thinking well that's not much use to Canada because they couldn't even get the ball out of the scrum quick enough and as Alex mentions Elgin from a set piece point of view from a four pack point of view the driving mall tries they had a couple of tries that the TMO got involved in which meant they ended up not being given a really good powerful performance

8:57Elgan: from England there was a bit of a narrative coming through in the in the middle of this tournament as England did perhaps revert to scrum and line out a bit like they did in 2022 they talked so much about developing an all-court game which they do have but they played quite a few wet games in this tournament they reverted back they saw that they could smack usa back they could smack australia back so they happy to win by any means you know john mitchell said he's not here to win any beauty contest they're there to figure out whatever it is to beat whoever's against them and they can beat just about everyone against them when it comes to scrummaging and line outs and as for the moment

9:30Alfie: itself i mean you guys were were in there today just under 82 000 blown records out of the water this women's world cup what was it like when they got over the line it was quite clearly really emotional straight away understandably for a lot i the whole day has been it's been really special i was just telling elgin earlier i started it in in norfolk i was doing something on last night and a couple of lads got on the train and ely straight into the buffet car came back cans of guinness 10 past 8 this morning was like this is like going to any other game at twickenham until you got to Twickenham and I arrived at 11-ish, 11.15, thinking there'll be a decent turnout for the bronze medal match, but it'll be like a straightforward walk up from the station.

10:19And I was blown away by how many people were here early, were here for the first game. There must have been 50 ,000, 60 ,000 watching the New Zealand-France game, which was really special. And then the winning moment, because it wasn't quite as tense by the end, you felt it. You felt it coming. The Red Roses players almost fell into each other's arms. It almost required the bench to come on and bring some energy to it. It was like there was this enormous exhalation from the players that they had, the angst and the pain from three years ago that had been building and building. And they'd been in camp for months and months.

10:59And as we said, the tension, the pressure to deliver. They would have known if they'd allowed themselves to stop and think that they were in a winning position for 10-15 minutes before the end. But when it got to it, their initial reaction was to just sink into each other's arms and cry. And it took a while before they were dancing around. It was a fascinating reaction for me because you think it's what they waited for and immediately they'll be leaping and lassoing. But it wasn't that initially. It was just relief, I think.

11:33Alfie: what was it like by the time they got to the press conference and the mix zone because i'm really interested by that alex it must be an amazing thing for this team i'm so glad that they get to enjoy tonight because sit for the last three years let's be honest six nations grand slams are great but it wasn't going to cut it for this team they had to win this game and they've done it and i can imagine there must be there's gonna be a lot of beer drunk and a real sense of joy but there must be a real sense of oh thank goodness it was it was joyous quite quickly after that and when they did a lap of honour and they had glitter and all sorts of things hanging around their necks it was wonderful and they were elated and the party will will go on and a few of them have had their first drink in over a year tonight um it's gonna be a bad hangover isn't it

12:16Elgan: zoe oldcroft who remember has only been captain since january that was quite a late change for john mitchell to make her captain instead of marley packer she's learning to sort of you know deal with the media do these press conferences i don't think it comes as naturally to her as for example abby dow who's just been speaking abby dow can just talk on and on she shows you photos off her camera reel she talks about crochet she just goes on and on she is a natural talker zoe oldcroft is an absolute workhorse on the field but perhaps not the most natural expressive orator but you could not wipe the smile off her face in that press conference she was the happiest i've ever seen her she had her kodak camera out that apparently ellie kildan had given to every player at the start of the tournament to document their World Cup and she hadn't taken it out until this morning so there'll be about 30 photos just of today and tonight as well on Zoe Oldcroft's Kodak camera.

13:06Alfie: You mentioned John Mitchell there let's talk about the head coach brought in to win the World Cup hasn't lost a game in charge and deserves a huge amount of credit here because he would have been criticized if they hadn't got over the line what's impressed you the most about his Red Roses tenure year and how he's gone about getting to this point he was essentially hired to win this game because

13:25Elgan: for two successive world cup campaigns in a row really they've won every game in between and they've just lost they lost that final three years ago so he has achieved the sole aim he had really building on the back of those what 32 successive wins prior to the final i think when he was announced there was a lot of disquiet about it i think a lot of people thought it was a risk just because he's come from what would have been 26 years in the men's game. Ever since I was looking at a photo of him next to Clive Woodward, Fran Cotton, Bill Beaumont and Roger Utley when he was only 33 years old, when he first coached an England men's national team in 1997.

14:05Elgan: He's had reputations for being quite a hard taskmaster, a bit of a martinet who hasn't necessarily dealt with man and management very well and things like that. And here he is coming into a new environment. But the players rave about him, about his vulnerability, the way he allows them to set their own culture. And that's a big thing they were talking about today, about how he just lets them set it themselves and be themselves. Very different to the stories you hear about John Mitchell, you know, 25 years ago or so. And I think the main thing he's also talked about is England were a very good team three years ago.

14:35Elgan: They are a better team now. He wanted to prepare them to be able to deal with any eventualities. Unfairness, the term he always uses. they had a little bit of unfairness today which was Hannah Botterman's yellow card but whatever unfairness they had they have dealt with it for the past three years. John Mitchell's a fascinating character because as Elgin says he was I mean he was hounded out of two jobs complaints of of bullying behavior basically one in Western Force in Australia one one at a province in in South Africa he didn't deal with the all blacks he got the all blacks job really early, too young.

15:09Elgan: He was sacked before he was 40. Yeah, it was all too big for him. And he was too tough. And he's had a real... He was the victim of a very scary break-in in his apartment in South Africa where he feared for his life. An armed break-in. And it changed him as a man. And the coach who turned up to coach the England men's team for the second time when Eddie Jones was in charge was a very different man to the guy who was sacked by the All Blacks and then drove players so hard that there were investigations of bullying and he was moved on from successive jobs. Totally different man. Much more empathetic.

15:52Much more understanding of people and what drives people. And the England men's players found him brilliant to work for. Exactly the right kind. He was running defence. Exactly the kind of coach that you need where players don't want to let you down and you say that about teachers back at school the best teachers are the ones who build this personal connection that the players were doing it for him didn't want to let him down and and you know this the John Mitchell who has created the environment and empowering the Red Roses is miles away from the John Mitchell of 20 years ago and his his evolution as a as a man and through his life is a fascinating story in itself and even when he got the Red Roses job he came in with a kind of reputation of, as Elgin just said but actually, you know, looking at it, not as closely as Elgin has, but you can see how all the things he's learned through that life in international rugby, the detail, the planning, the preparation is all there.

16:51The rugby is all there. As he said tonight, he said we knew we'd be good at the rugby. He said but it was the culture that won us this World Cup and I totally see what he means because he has empowered, he's empowered them and probably the hardest decisions he's had to make are things like dropping an Emily Scarrett or but I think he's done that stuff

17:09Alfie: really well though as well exactly changing captain as Elgin just said some really tough decisions in a World Cup year to make those calls but keep the wisdom and experience of those players on board and part of the project is not an easy thing to manage and an emotionally unintelligent coach can't achieve that But he has achieved that, which I think says a lot about how he's evolved and where he is as a coach now. Yeah, I really like the way in which players like Emily Scarratt or Marley Packer that were such mainstays of this team for a long time. They've been phased out, but they're not out.

17:44Alfie: They've still had a role to play. They've still had quite an important role still to play within this camp. I think there's a lot of players that have got better as well. You look at the strength and depth that England now have, particularly in the front row. But then also you've got other players, say like a Jess Breach, for example, when people have questioned, is their defence good enough? and he's still stuck with that. I feel like he's got a lot of those coaching decisions absolutely spot on.

18:04Elgan: The other thing that England have really benefited from this time is that previous World Cup finals, I know pre-2022 it's a very different story because they would have only three days in between matches so inevitably people were going to be knackered or injured. But even the last World Cup final, Simon Middleton took in two scrum halves. They basically had no fit scrum halves for the final. Zoe Oldcroft went off with a head injury in the first half as well so she didn't play much for the last final. this time they came into the tournament with a few niggles around Holly Aiterson, Helena Rowland but now they came into a final with all 32 available so how often does that happen going into the World Cup knowing that you not only have a squad where everyone can take to the field and do a great job but where they are all also fit and firing at the same time

18:45Alfie: Seems like a good point to take a quick break after this we'll round things up and look at the tournament more as a whole

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20:08Alfie: So let's make it a bit more general here, gents, because we've kind of covered England, the performance, credit to the players and credit to the coaching staff. What does this moment mean for women's rugby in England, Elgin?

20:19Elgan: It's inevitably a watershed moment just because the world record crowd three years ago was just under 43 ,000. And now we've seen 81 ,885 people at Twickenham. You've got 32 red roses whose lives will change now. They will forever be world champions. They will get all the effects, all the things that come from the halo effect of that, whether that's honors, celebrations at Downing Street, being on reality TV, all those things. So for these individuals, their life will change forever. What will be fascinating is to see what happens with the PWR, how that changes, what crowds might look like there.

20:56Elgan: We don't know yet, of course. But also tomorrow morning and all the Sunday mornings thereafter, what does it look like at mini sessions at all these local clubs? Are there going to be tens, hundreds, thousands of young boys and girls that suddenly have been taken away? That's what we hope will happen. That's what a lot of people say that they really didn't do well after 2003 when the men's won. so we look forward to seeing what happens at grassroots and elite level. Your preview to this game, Elgin, you set it up perfectly that there are sort of two strands to this World Cup. There are two objectives, two outcomes, two possibilities.

21:31One was what it does for the Red Roses. Can they win? Can they banish the hoodoo? Can they provide the closure to the World Cup, as John Mitchell put it? But then there's also the wider concept of the tournament as a success and the minis tomorrow morning and going forward and how well set up is the RFU to capture this moment. And historically, the RFU hasn't been great at that. And you would hope that from tomorrow morning and certainly going forward that the RFU and the English game is set up with the investment required and the coaching opportunities. And Owen Slaughter wrote a piece quite early on about it being a festival.

22:11And he was right. It was a celebration of women playing rugby. It was a festival, but it hasn't been for the last few weeks. There's been jeopardy. It's been proper sport, like high-level, elite-level, wonderful tension, drama, and both things have been a success, I think. And I hope now that the Red Roses can, as you say, inspire that from the professional end, there can be growth of depth, and at the amateur end, there can be, you know, girls might want to rock up and throw a ball around on a Sunday morning.

22:43Elgan: For all Canada's brilliance, and a lot of people took them to heart with how they performed, there were some fears before this final, but what would it represent if Canada won? Because Rugby Canada has about a 20th of the revenue of the RFU, because the Red Roses have been so well supported. Would England losing mean that the RFU actually reduced their funding to the Red Roses? That's now something we don't really have to consider because they've won. But when you look at the rest of the world, how good could Canada be if they had a bit more? I know that they're not the most financially prosperous union in the world.

23:14Elgan: We've seen the troubles that the men have. But you look at the other countries in the world, they know now that these Red Roses are not only world champions, but the standard bearers. And how are the other nations going to match them? New Zealand probably got away with the complacency three years ago by winning that final, because that could have been the moment where they had to really pull their finger out. France have been sort of simmering along a bit. South Africa now, who have really emerged during this World Cup as a possible women's superpower now that they've finally fallen for the women's game so it's of course not just England it's it's what the rest of the women's game can achieve after this as well the challenge is that is how do you grow the the commercial side of it to allow the smaller unions to invest and and that's that's where the women's game hopefully on the back of this will take us you know a spring forward but there's a long way to go we we sat in a briefing Elgin didn't we a few months ago with the rfu where they they talked about is it what was it 12 million a year they invest in women's rugby and it makes them two at the most so they write off 10 million pounds worth of investment into women's rugby on the basis that it's it's the right thing to do it you know whether that's facilities at grassroots level to give women and girls changing rooms and toilets and all that whether it's the professional the pwri on the professional end that's an enormous amount of money that the RFU has committed to investing knowing that it can't generate anywhere close to that commercially yet but if you're a sponsor or a company wanting to invest in the women's game and you look at Twickenham today and you look at Ashton Gate last week and you look at Sunderland in week one packed crowds everywhere that you know that that investment the RFU are putting in now knowing they're going to write it off is designed to build something but it needs to be global because it's at the moment canada can't generate the commercials new zealand can't generate the commercials it's down to world rugby are in a position to try and generate the commercials that will allow these countries to to invest but the rf are leading the way they're showing how to do it and this world cup has been has been proof that you can build something i was

25:18Alfie: always torn ahead of this game because i thought the pure sporting drama if canada had been able to win just from a purely sporting point of view would have been incredible but i always felt that the best thing here not just because I'm English but was for England to win because it's a quite a bad look if they didn't I think the fact they have now should be a bit of a shot across the bowels of a lot of other unions that you have to invest in your women's program because off the back of this England are only going to get stronger aren't they you would imagine if there is an impact like we've been saying to the grassroots clubs and we've got 82 ,000 at Twickenham here we had 60 ,000 in Sunderland you would imagine women's rugby in England is going to be even better off the back of this England could be so dominant unless the other unions react well and it does feel Elgin like there are other unions have a long way to go to to catch up with this we saw the reaction from the Scotland team towards their union Ireland are taking the Ireland women's team to the Aviva Stadium in Six Nations that you know again that's a platform have they looked at what England have done here and thought right we we do need to invest in this and back this but there are a lot unions that are even very close to home who are way behind the rfu in in terms of their project their planning and their willingness to back it and invest to build something that might be

26:33Elgan: commercially valuable down the line speak to anyone at world rugby and they'll probably tell you that the women's game is driving the men's game in a lot of areas going to new markets new types of sponsors things like you know barbie having a deal with rfu that that type of thing this i said before the tournament with alonama this was the social media world cup in terms of having content creators embedded within teams as well so it does touch places where the men's game can't quite reach so you know we think unions are seeing that and now they have to go and do it they

27:03Alfie: were right on it with the winning t-shirts though weren't they they didn't take them long i mean to be fair i wouldn't wonder where they would have ended up well you always wonder that i know yeah

27:13Elgan: It's like the Super Bowl, isn't it? It's one of those things where if you find out about it beforehand, everyone goes, oh, typical arrogant England. But obviously there's a lot of logistics that go into these things, and they can't just go, right, let's have a victory parade in eight hours. Let's quickly print some T-shirts in ten minutes. So, yes, I'd love to see all the T-shirts and parades that never actually materialise in sporting events.

27:35Alfie: So there is a victory party? There is. Tomorrow in Battersea. So if you are listening to this in time, on Sunday in Battersea, it's free. you can just turn up they are having a victory party there so go and enjoy it I'd imagine there's going to be some pretty hoarse voices lots of bad singing and um that's just for me yeah nursing hangovers but they deserve it because the Red Roses are world champions Elgin been a pleasure across this World Cup we've been all over the place really Brighton Bristol Lensbury

28:01Elgan: yeah and I think that's one of the things that obviously selling out Twickenham is a huge thing for the Red Roses to have achieved but I think one of the things we often talk about how the women game doesn't have to just follow the men's game around and while there are some people that perhaps hope that the Red Roses could get 82 ,000 at Twickenham every time they play a game the fact that they tour around the country means that they offer something that the England men's team can't do in terms of availability in terms of playing in Sunderland playing in Bristol playing down in Exeter so we have seen that festival that taking it around the country and yeah that's uh that's

28:34Alfie: been an excellent part of the tournament and Alex your return to the ruck by the way post-summer has kind of been by stealth in the Prem preview interview with Simon Massey-Taylor in this one here as well. So good to have you back. I think the pods through the tournament have been brilliant and it's been great to showcase the World Cup in the way we have. I've been an avid listener and it's nice to be back. No, it's been good fun. It's been good fun. So next pod will be coming your way on Tuesday. We'll round up the action in the opening weekend of the Prem this weekend. We're also hoping to have a chat with someone from the Champ.

29:08Alfie: I'm still getting used to saying champ and prem rather than the e-airship. So hopefully that'll be coming your way on Tuesday. We hope you've enjoyed the podcast. Throughout the Women's World Cup, it has ended as many of us hoped it would. England are the world champions in 2025. See you next time.

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30:07Alfie: A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With Acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format. Then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions. You're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.