Richie McCaw previews England vs New Zealand

0:00Alfie: Hannah Previtt here from The Business Podcast. Join me for a special episode with PWC UK's Marco Amitrano and WPP's Michael Froelich, recorded at the Greater Together Conference in Los Angeles, California. We'll discuss how partnerships between the US and the UK can drive economic growth and shape the future of transatlantic collaboration. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer. They tune in every week. They trust the host. And that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience.

0:38Alfie: The problem is you just haven't been introduced yet. We're Acast, where that introduction happens. As the world's largest podcast marketplace, we let you browse shows, see who's listening, and book host-read sponsorships or run your own ads all from one platform. Transparent pricing, real-time data, complete control. Start advertising on podcasts by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

1:21Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times as we head into the third week of November internationals and the biggest week from an England point of view. I'm Alfie Reynolds alongside Will Kelleher and Alex Lowe. We're back up at the England training base. This is the big one, isn't it, lads? This is the one, Alex, that was circled in the calendar before a ball was kicked this November? For England, definitely. I think we all saw the Australia team likely to deliver the performance they did outside of the window. tired as they looked tired all autumn fiji delivered the performance i think we expected which was exciting open aggressive attacking for an hour and then wouldn't be able to to match england in the last 20 minutes fitness etc this is the game that will define the autumn but i think is also a statement game for this borthwick period of england i think they've gone nine in a row nine wins in a row there is definite progress if you look at you look at where this England team were a year ago compared to where they are now they were very close to beating the All Blacks three times I think they can and should and maybe will beat them this weekend better team better squad better mindset better everything there's a lot riding on it and I would hope that we get a real bouncing fizzing Twickenham as well I can't wait like we probably get a bit used to these weeks sometimes because we are lucky and we do a lot of them and we basically are there whenever whenever england play but i'm really really looking forward to saturday like england new zealand at twickenham is a great fixture isn't it and it's not always a great game but on as you say circling on the calendar using the old school thing i was thinking when you said that is it is the modern equivalent like getting a notification off your time tree maybe doesn't have the same ring to it no not really but it's just that thing of like the best stuff in sport is when you're about to kick off whatever game it is or have the first ball of an Ashes next Friday or something like that, and you go, I don't know what's going to happen and this is going to be great.

3:23And I think that's what Saturday at 10 past three will be like. We'll have the Haka, we'll have Swinglow as usual, ringing round during it, and we'll all go, right, what have both of these teams got? And that's a great place to be in, isn't it? I think it's really even, so it's going to be wicked, yeah.

3:37Alfie: Yeah, it's really funny, depending on who you speak to in the England camp this week. So I spoke to Oli Chessam and Jamie George in the Mick zone after Fiji, and both of them straight away were like, All Blacks week, so exciting. There'll be a different intensity in training. Then on Tuesday, Freddie Stewart said the same thing. I think he said, it's almost an unspoken rule, but there it is different. And then Finn Baxter, maybe one of the younger lads, kind of came in and gave me the party line, I suppose, of you. I think he, yeah. I don't think he felt senior enough to be able to say, but it's definitely being talked about in camp that this is a different week.

4:10But also, I think we feel it too from our side. and I would think probably the wider public as well. People are aware that it's England, New Zealand on Saturday. It will be full. People will be tuning into the telly at 10 past three, whereas last weekend it'd be like, oh, when's the game? The first week we talked about it maybe sneaking up on people, but there's no sneaking up about an All Blacks game. People are aware it's coming and it's going to go off on Saturday, and that's great.

4:33Alfie: And there's a reason the RFU can charge how much they do for tickets and the reason that they sell those tickets as well. The one thing, though, in terms of this game, gents, So Will, on Saturday post-Fiji, your first thing was, you feel England should beat New Zealand. And I think a lot of the talk this week has been along those lines. And the closer we've got to the game, the more uneasy I felt about that. Because are we forgetting here that this is a New Zealand side that's second in the world? I agree with you, Alex. And I look at these two teams and I think they are so evenly matched. so I think to add to what I said on Saturday night which I think I would stick by if it didn't stick by and that would be a bit of rubbish wouldn't it but I think why I'm thinking that is because I'm saying if England are the team that are developing and if they are the team that have learned from all these tight defeats and they've beaten Ireland they've beaten France and they've only done they're the only two teams they've beaten ranked above them apart from that time where Argentina were just above them at the 23 world cup in that pool game then that shows progression that they beat new zealand and if they don't then it's the set we go we revert to uh tight defeats and i think it's something you wrote early in the week alex is like or maybe in your match report actually tight defeats don't against new zealand don't matter anymore and like i think even scotland have got there now haven't they they go actually a tight defeat to the all blacks is no good anymore so that's where I think it's that where I would use the should bit rather than the could I think they are evenly matched and I said earlier on they probably will and I say that because I feel that this team this England team are in a better position to win a tight game against the All Blacks than they were a year ago if you think back to those three games if Marcus Smith had never kicked in Dunedin England win if England hadn't been done with a truck and trailer at Mall in the last play in Auckland which Jamie George if he was in here now would still maintain it wasn't a truck and trailer then they would have drawn that game and if the penalty had gone over from George Ford or if the Fords had got themselves in had managed the drop goal situation better then George pops out over England win that game they are you know when we were by the end of that autumn I was looking back at some of the stuff I wrote and it felt quite harsh but it's exactly how we felt at the time which was this has happened so many times that this is actually a failing of the team it's not bad luck it was they weren't in a position like mindset wise execution wise to actually nail those moments at the end of the end of these games now I believe from what we see and from the conversations that you have around the place and then from what the players say that I think they've addressed that like I think this bench is set up to address that I think that the players have learned from that collective experience of not getting it right they know how to get it right I think it'll be a tight game and I do think the teams are pretty even but I just feel that they've been even for four matches in a row and it's been three England defeats and a draw and the draw in 22 as well yeah which quite a lot of this team were part of yeah with a different head coach obviously yeah and I just feel that albeit very different circumstances It was a wild draw, that wasn't it?

7:48It was a wild draw, to be fair. But if we just talk under Borthwick and this team, those were really tight games, and England weren't ready to win them. And it was a failing of theirs. And it was actually what we saw with Scotland last week. I know Damien McKenzie came on and just rolled his sleeves off and went, right, I'm going to go win this game. But there was also an element of, once Scotland got back, they almost didn't want to risk losing it again and went a bit safe. And that is when you lose it. And I feel that this England team, they think they should be winning it and I think they should be winning.

8:19And look if you flip it the other side and think about it from the All Blacks perspective none of what we're saying here is discrediting the All Blacks. I think Robertson's lost six games as an All Blacks head coach which doesn't sound like a lot but against other All Black head coaches it is a lot but they're only to South Africa and Argentina. So he's never lost to a Northern Hemisphere team yet. So they do look like they're a team in a little bit more development than they have been but they still have a very good scrum. They've got one of the greats in the back row, Ardy Saver. They've got an all-timer at 10, Bowdoin Barrett.

8:52They've got some incredible athletes out wide. Will Jordan's going to go down as a great all-black. And then they've got Satiti, McKenzie, Tossie, all these lads off the bench. So nothing we're saying here is saying that the all-blacks are bad and are not going to do it. But I think what we're saying is that for England to step forward and develop and to prove their talk is meaning something, they should that phrase again win on Saturday I was listening to Liam Napier from the New Zealand Herald on a on another pod and he thinks England by seven England winning a narrow game now I think it'll be narrow game but that that's quite an interesting perspective of a guy who has followed the All Blacks all year he can see their inconsistencies he can see from game to game they're inconsistent within games they're inconsistent it's not as we keep saying it's a vintage All Blacks team.

9:40It's a dangerous All Blacks team. They always are. They've got a core of 100 cappers in that team but people who follow the All Blacks aren't. They see weaknesses and these England coaches will see weaknesses. England have got weaknesses too of course which is why I think it'd be tight. I just feel that this England team are in a position now to nail a scalp that they weren't quite able to do a year ago.

10:03Alfie: Well massive game. I echo both of your thoughts. I'm really excited for us to be there on the weekend should we get on our own new zealand expert can i can i look we don't do this very often but can i pat us on the back here like you look at the charts we're the 30 seconds most listened to sports podcast it's not very high and look who we've got coming up by the way on this podcast well who else would you want to hear from other than richie mccall come on guys One of the greats. One of the great All Blacks. One of the great players. Who's giving you Richie McCaw this week, other than us? And, yeah, we had a chat with him.

10:40Alfie: Now, he was on the pod about a year or so, a little over a year ago. July 24. The three of us were up early. We had a chat with him. We cover a lot of bases here. But this is Richie McCaw chatting to us, previewing England's match against the All Blacks. Well, all right, Richie, welcome back onto the Ruck. Good to see you. How are you? I'm very good, thank you. yeah it's good to uh good to chat yeah well last time you were on was last year uh when will and alex were in new zealand and you're just about to take will up in the helicopter yeah no it was uh it was game jumping in the helicopter for me i suppose but uh yeah i hope it was uh enjoyable but no it was uh it was good fun to do that we had two attempts didn't we richie because the weather wasn't very kind to us we just about managed to hit the window yeah yeah we uh we managed to sneak out and around and have a look but yeah it was a winter time wasn't it so it's often a bit hit and miss on that so yeah it was good we got it done.

11:39Alfie: I feel like this is a lot less of an exciting way to get you back on the point it's quite underwhelming on this occasion compared with that one but we appreciate your time nonetheless we're looking forward Richie to the match at Twickenham this weekend I mean it's always special when the All Blacks come to town. What's the feeling in New Zealand from an All Blacks perspective where you've won a couple of games this autumn already, tight win against Scotland at Murrayfield? What's the feeling around the All Blacks at the moment? I think, obviously, people that follow it closely would say happy to see you've got two wins.

12:15But there's been some really good patches of rugby and some bits where you'd probably be a bit disappointed. I guess I'm just probably thinking about it as a team point of view as well. You want to be a bit more consistent throughout a whole game. But you've still got the chance to win all four games and you're two from two. But it doesn't get any easier. Twickenham's always a challenging place to play. But it's one of those test matches that you get pretty excited for. Twickenham's always an intense atmosphere. and yeah, you've got to be on your game. So I think it's a good test to see where the All Blacks are at.

12:55Probably the same from an English side of things, but I think you put those things together, it makes for an exciting match. What do you remember of your Grand Slam tour, Richie? That's what they're trying to achieve this time, beat all the home unions. I think last time was 20 to 10. Yeah, we were lucky enough to have three attempts. The first time was 2005 and I actually missed the English test, which was probably the hardest test of the lot that it was. It was a pretty brutal game from watching in the stand. But it's sort of one of those things, it's not an easy thing to do to go up and win all four games.

13:29And if you sort of get carried away thinking about all four in a group, you kind of miss getting the preparation right doing week to week and making sure that, you know, you know that. So, yeah, I think the thing is what we did quite effectively acknowledged that, you know, the idea of a Grand Slam, beating all the four home nations is pretty appetising, but you've got to do each week right to give yourself that chance. And that's something we did well, and there are times we did it. But you play four different countries in four different weeks, so all slightly different challenges, different strengths and weaknesses, and you've got to make sure that you go back to the start each week and get the preparation right.

14:09So I think that's the big challenge. There's a lot of teams from South Africa, New Zealand, Australia over the years that had a crack and had to slip up. somewhere along the way and that just shows you it's not easy to win four in a row. What do you find unique about the England game and Twickenham? Obviously like quite a lot of countries in the world England don't have a good record against New Zealand and celebrate the wins greatly whenever they happen the rare ones that they happen so but why do you guys find it hard against them sometimes like it's it has been tight over the years hasn't it albeit the All Blacks often win?

14:44Yeah, I think I perhaps think in some ways the English team, perhaps it's because they've had some, you know, probably a little bit more success than other teams over the years have a belief that they can go out and compete and win. And maybe there's a little bit in that, but it's always a physical battle. I think that's one of the things England always bring. When I played, especially it was physical. You had to really be on your game in the forward pack to get what you needed. I think the whole atmosphere at Twickenham, I don't know why, it just has that feeling of a slightly different buzz where when England get a bit of a roll on, the crowd starts singing, it becomes pretty intense out in the field and maybe that has an impact as well, I'm not sure.

15:32But always pretty satisfying when you get the performance to get a win. It's one of those ones that you walk off knowing you've had to work pretty hard for. They love a bit of swing low during the haka, don't they? Everyone gets riled up right at the start, usually. That's great. I reckon it's brilliant for the whole theatre of Test Rugby, you know. The All Blacks do that. The English fans start singing. What a great way to set the atmosphere for what the game's going to give.

16:03Alfie: Richie, are we in almost a funny position with the current All Blacks, in a way? Because you look at them at the moment and they're not the dominant team that, say, you played in. but equally they're still potentially in a position to go unbeaten in their tour up here they came second in the rugby championship like where are we do you think with with this team kind of in a developmental stage still very good but not quite as dominant one thing I don't I never like talking about is is you know you're developing is it all like when you get there you should be ready to go and and perform but the reality is a team and with when you have new coaches or differences, you know, you hope as time goes on you get better and better.

16:45If you don't, you're doing something wrong. So when you have either setbacks, like they've had a couple this year, or even periods in a game, maybe like last week, just after halftime, you let a team back in. You know, learning from those bits so that they don't keep happening, I think that's the key. It's easy to look in hindsight at things that are all rosy, especially in the times we had, but there was periods we went through where it didn't go all our own way. And sometimes that's when you learn the most and that sets you up for the times down the track that you don't or you know what you need to do to ensure that you don't have those flip-ups.

17:23So I guess that team's in that stage. There's some pretty good rugby playing in patches, but it's been able to do that consistently both in-game, but also week to week. And I think as players, you've just got learn what it takes to do that. Like, it's a hard thing to repeat performance time after time. And, you know, in all sports and all, you know, it's the biggest challenge, I think, is to have that same deep motivation and preparation to go to the place you need to to get the performance and ultimately have you the win. So this team, yeah, probably would like to be more consistent. But the thing is, I think they realise there's still a lot of talent there across the board, you know, to be able to bring in guys with injuries and that that just slot in and look the part.

18:10We're still in a good spot in that regard. It's just been able to, as I say, do it consistently. Richie, as Alfie alluded to there, the All Blacks have had some big wins in the last year and a half, a couple of humbling defeats. I'm interested to know what you think of the imprint that Scott Robertson's had on the All Blacks. He's a head coach who's come in from the outside for the first time in a long time, I guess, with the idea of doing it his way. What do you see of him, his personality, his rugby ethos coming through with the All Blacks? Yeah, like obviously he coached the Crusaders in the Super Rugby for a few years and had some great success there.

18:52And I think one of the things is he's big on uniting a team to believe in something and making sure that it's not just week to week, it's you know you build over a period or campaign or you know with the All Blacks now it's a little bit different where it's you know you build up but over you know campaigns I suppose. The one thing is and I think he's probably realised that and international rugby is different to playing super rugby. The intensity of having to get it done every week not sort of going well in a competition where you can afford to trip up once or twice and you know to rest some players or rotate but yeah all that sort of stuff uh is just different in test rugby and i suspect there's been a little bit of uh you know no matter how much you you think you've got it sorted until you go through his experiences um you've you know that's where you learn and uh and i guess there's wider training a coaching group would be the same so yeah there's a little bit of that but there's no doubt his his uh knowledge and understanding and like you know when you talk to him about his understanding of all the players in new zealand like selection's a big part of coaching and he's got his finger right on who's around, coming through and that sort of stuff.

20:03So, yeah, it might be a little bit different to what there's been in the past, but certainly in the rugby brain, he's got, yeah, they'll be learning and getting better for it, I guess. And, you know, you go through a couple of tough patches or games where they don't go your way, he'll be learning like, you know, like I know, you know, when you've got that right attitude, he'll do that. I was wondering, Richie, as well, that people who are looking at the sort of world game at the moment and thinking, ah, the All Blacks aren't quite as dominant as Alfie was saying as the back end of your era, that 11-15.

20:36Is some of that, do you think, because lots of the other countries have up their game and generally the world game is quite tight? That whole top six, maybe even deeper than that, top eight, have nip and tuck test matches all the time, beat each other quite a lot, whereas maybe in your era you didn't have as strong a France, as strong an Ireland consistently throughout that whole time, perhaps? Yeah, hard to say. Like, it didn't feel like that. Like, it sort of felt, even when we were playing, and a lot of people would say, oh, there's a gap. But the gap's very small. Like, if you sit on, if everyone went out and played their perfect game, you could probably work out who should win each game.

21:12But the reality is, you're never perfect. And it only takes 1 % or 2 % of getting things a little bit wrong or a bit of momentum going against you, and you start to make mistakes or whatever. but it can twist and go against you pretty quickly. So I don't know whether it's a whole lot different in that regard. The consistency of performance is week to week, but it's also in game. You can have teams compete for 60 or 70 minutes, but when you get one opportunity that presents itself, do you take it or don't you? That's the difference, I think, to teams that consistently get across the line to ones that perhaps get close but don't quite.

21:49And I think we, in my time, we probably weren't as good as we were at the end, you know, learnt to wait or not wait, but create those moments and nail them. And I think that to me is kind of the difference of a team that's consistently successful to a team that has potential to be. So, yeah, I don't know whether it's changed a whole lot. I think the game, there's a lot more reward for not having the ball at the moment. We put the ball in the air 50-50s. You know, teams are probably erring on the conservative side. And there was a patch in 2000, I can't remember what it was, maybe 2009, where we certainly against South Africa had trouble because it felt like that.

22:28You had more, didn't look after the ball in the air very well and that compounded into the rest of the game. So it sort of feels like it's in that stage a wee bit where we perhaps haven't quite owned that side of things as much and there's a lot more reward for not having the ball. So a bit of a swing again, and you've got to be at the front of the game, front of the pack to how to swing it rather than just wait for it to. You've got to actually go, well, how do we innovate here and be in front of what's the next piece of the game that's going to dominate over the coming months, years, a year, you know.

23:03It's interesting up here, Richie, because on the subject of kicking, I wouldn't quite call it a war of words, but Scott Robertson said on Tuesday, oh, well, we're here in the Northern Hemisphere, were expecting a barrage of kicks from England. And then we went to see England yesterday and Steve Borthick was saying, well, I think you'll find that actually the All Blacks have kicked more than we've kicked in the last three tests. It's a sort of a, you know, they kick more than us debate, but what it shows is that there's going to be a lot of aerial game in this test match. Yeah, like it's hard watching when it's like that.

23:33I used to hate playing when it was like that, but you've got to be pragmatic as well. You know, there's no point. Like, I think one of the things we did some, stats like too much kicking isn't great, but not enough kicking isn't great either. You end up overplaying and playing to the hands of the defensive team. So it's getting that balance right. And I think that it's not just kicking and hoping. It's actually understanding when the right time is to use it as a way of shaping defences or when they've got you sorted out in one area, you can put the ball on the deck somewhere else and manipulate sort of how they're defending.

24:08I think that's where it's key. and there was a period I remember, I don't know what year it was, but the stats were the All-Blokes kicked more than any other team in the world, but we scored more tries. So that sort of shows the type of kicks that are set up as the game went on. Then you get your two or three opportunities, game under control, then you can charge on a bit more. So there's a fair bit of, it's easy just to throw a pin at something and say that's what's happening. But when it's intense and tight, you don't want to be in your own half, you don't want to overplay, so you put it in the air and then both teams doing that, that's where it becomes quite difficult to watch.

24:45But you've got to be pragmatic as well, I suppose. Richie, another sort of, maybe we wouldn't call it an innovation because it's been happening for quite a long time, but it seems everyone's obsessed with having their best team on at the end of the game now. So obviously the Springboks have dominated with the Bomb Squad and things like that. And we're a bit clunkily calling ours the POM Squad, which I don't think that's working very well. But what do you make of all that, the kind of holding back some of your better players for the end of the game I mean some of your substitutes in that 2015 final weren't too bad players were they Bowdoin Barrett Sonny Bill Williams like you had some quite good substitutes yeah and I think that's the key is and it's a bit like a two or four games you know giving people enough opportunity to play so that it actually the fresh leg side of things doesn't diminish you know what the ability is yeah and and I think so there's that side of it so if you've got strength of uh you know position where you go well it's a bit of a toss of the coin and positions as to who might start and who finish that's a great place to be but on the other side of it is if your best player of say at a 10 or a number eight or whatever is is your best player to pull them off when you really need someone directing under pressure at the end you know that's always the argument and uh you know you probably want your best players at the end when it comes down to those minute little skills that need to be executed to get you across the line.

26:12So it's always a conundrum, I suppose. It's a 23-man game now. Maybe your best player gets a bit tired, may not be your best player anymore if someone can come on. So I guess that's what a coach is always scrapping with. One thing about just changing for the sake of it, just because you feel like at 60-minute mark, you've got to give someone a run. I'm not sure that's always, having the right reason, how you switch players is key. But I think everyone accepts now that 23 guys will buy a large play and the combination of who plays when is pretty key. And you look at the South Africans, six big brutes coming on, fresh and physical.

26:51That's quite a handful. I was going to ask you how much respect you've got for the current box who seems like they're desperate to prove that they are your equal or even better, the sort of 11 to 15 All Blacks. And I wondered also if you would fancy your chances at playing in the centre, the opposite of Andre Esterhazen coming into the back row. Yeah, I got a lot of respect for this box team. I wondered if maybe some of the players have been around a long time with how they hold up their standards. But certainly getting across the line last week against a good French team, you know, at the end of the games.

27:30And you look, you know, two years ago at the World Cup when they won those three knockout games, really, they could have lost them all, but they hung in there. Like that's a real hard edge of learning how to do that. It's still there. And they showed against the All Blacks, you know, you just let the, open the gap just slightly. Man, they're good enough to make you pay. So, yeah, I got a lot of respect for those. because Rezzi obviously has got them pretty schooled up to be pretty ruthless about repeating game after game, which has been pretty impressive to watch.

28:05Alfie: Richie, if I bring it back onto the match this weekend, the three of us are all going to be at Twickenham. I wanted to ask you about some of England's back row options. Henry Pollock has been the breakout star in the last year or so. Has that translated or broken through to New Zealand? Have you seen much about him? To be perfectly honest, I haven't caught a lot of what those guys are up to, if I'll be honest. I'll be just making it up, really. But, yeah, I'll be intrigued to watch this game. You look at the All Blacks, a couple of younger players. There's a bit of talk about the England back row.

28:40It'll be a good challenge. And you've got the old dog of Artie Savier still nailing it, making quite an impact. So, yeah, it'll be interesting to watch.

28:51Alfie: I mean, he's one of the great All Blacks, isn't he? I know there's been plenty in that back row, you being one of them. But just year after year, Ardy Surveyor continues to be performing at such an elite level. Yeah and he pops up and does things to stop momentum To actually change the game That's a sign of a player that can really have an impact So yeah as I say he's still doing it And I think the inspiration he gives the guys around him Is certainly a huge plus What about your particular memories of We go back to Twickenham Richie I mean you had one of your great days there obviously Your last match going out on your sword with two World Cups in the back pocket?

29:35It was a lot of fun, that one. Yeah, it was a good memory, definitely. It was a hell of a place to play a World Cup in England, you know, with the hype and excitement and then play at Twickenham in the final. It was a magic, really. We had some good days there. One of the tough days in 2012, we got knocked over. You remember those days probably more so than the wins. You sort of stole them away to make sure that doesn't happen again. And we really were outplayed that day. you know it was the end of the game it was like man we're well second here so it was uh yeah those are the days that you store away and make sure you don't let them repeat too often it's funny rich you say that because i was just reading a book last night on the history of england's all blacks fixtures and uh the chapter on the 1993 game where england won a kicking contest 15-9 and sean fitzpatrick in the in the after after match dinner congratulated england and said as all blacks we don't forget defeats they're the things that we remember the most this will stay with us and the next time they played england two years later they unleashed joan lomu on on mike cat and uh and the rest is history uh yeah uh like i guess that's one thing about if you don't lose too often you remember the times you do and uh there's no doubt uh 2012 you know we played i I think it was a gain in 13 and then three at home in 14.

30:57Certainly there was plenty of remembering that day, I tell you. Do you find it funny sometimes? I mean, everyone's desperate to beat the All Blacks, and particularly teams up this way who have not done it for either centuries ever or often at all. Do you find it quite funny how everyone falls over themselves to go like, we must, we must do it this week, we must beat the All Blacks and think they've got a chance? yeah I guess it's one things that you know you want to yeah you get an opportunity and every one that you don't win there's one close to the one you do um amazing you look at the island you know uh they hadn't beaten the all blacks and then they got that one and they've won five five out of last 10 is it or something like that you know so it just shows that belief you know uh so yeah but on the other side of it I love that challenge of not but not wanting to give up a scalped too easily um you know made everyone work for it so yeah can you can you explain the i mean that one in 2012 obviously you're over this way but what actually is it like to be an all black when you've lost i mean it didn't happen very often for you but maybe particularly a captain yeah it was um oh i don't know it uh you're just thankful if you get it yet to play again uh the next week just one rectify that one 2012 we had to think about it for a whole summer and then even you know a whole super rugby before we got a chance to put the jersey on again i'll tell you what yeah um it grinds away over there and and of course any talk about the all black sort of is that that one last bit that's talked about so uh yeah it's it's there and i made it pretty uncomfortable but i'll be worried if it didn't because then it doesn't mean as much so uh you know the moment you say it's okay i think you're in trouble what's next for you out um Richie have you got another massive challenge coming up an adventure run or ultra marathon what's next I'm actually helping organize the big one that I've done so I'm not doing it so I'm uh doing the helicopter flying with media and all that sort of stuff around it so it's in Blenheim in a couple of weeks so it's an eight-day race so uh be helping out with that so quite glad I've got the pressure on of uh have been in amongst it but um yeah it's uh pretty cool to be on the other side uh setting up a course to make people suffer so no it'd be good fun but yeah just keeping things sticking over and uh yeah nice to spend a bit time at home after a week or so away

33:21Alfie: well richie look we really appreciate your time we'll let you go just how do you see it going england against the all blacks this weekend oh i'm really intrigued i i'm probably a bit biased but i think i think the all blacks showed you know that they when they put it together can uh score the points um but you know anything can happen i think that's why we keep watching but i'll pick in the all black by seven ah good stuff richie thanks so much for joining us really appreciate it no problems at all cheers hannah prevett here from the business podcast join me for a special episode with pwc uk's marco ametrano and wpp's michael frolish recorded at the greater together conference in Los Angeles, California.

34:06Alfie: We'll discuss how partnerships between the US and the UK can drive economic grace and shape the future of transatlantic collaboration. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. While every other channel is fighting for your customers' attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears. And when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. ACAST gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, post-read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked.

34:42Alfie: Don't fight for attention. Buy it with ACAST. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

34:52Alfie: Well, brilliant to have Richie McCaw on the ruck. We appreciate his time once again. lads we've kind of teed up the game and spoken about it more generally of what it means for England and for the Borthwick project the team news itself what stood out for both of you on Tuesday when we got that team I suppose the thing for me and I think this is becoming a theme of of this whole November is the bet like we're focused more on benches at the moment than we often seem to be starting 15s but that was often that's what you've been writing about it's been a huge discussion point and once again England's bench I think is really important a big topic a conversation yeah so it was the intro to our team news piece on tuesday um the pom squad which i'm still unsatisfied about as a nickname and it was funny actually so one of the new zealand tv journalists from sky and zed said how are you gonna cope with the pom squad razor and he went the what and he was then going like what's that i've never he was like what they're calling it is it yeah he was just so flummoxed it's quite funny he's like oh who came up with that that's quite weird i i use it in my my piece of analyzing the team and initially i had it was a it was in reference to the game in 2002 when clivewood had brought leonard delaglio dawson and martin johnson off the bench and i was like that was in the days before we had to the original pom squad but in the days before we had to come up with these like pithy labels for everything and then i took that out because i then remembered that that same team spent the entire time in australia at the world cup being called dad's army the entire way around actually it's always been there we've always had these labels for these things but just getting into the actual selection of it like i think the view of it was it's clear that this has been a plan to address the failings in the final quarter from last year and everything else but it still feels ballsy to do it against the all blacks because obviously the fear is that and look this hasn't happened in lots of test matches under Borthwick at all or in lots of test matches at the top level anywhere the fear is that England have blown out the water after now and it's like good luck bringing on your Lions because the game's done and it's maybe a bit more like I know they drew it but that game in 2022 where England were miles behind and it was just like kitchen sink time throw everything at it nothing to lose here so you thought Scotland were done 17 yeah they were 17 exactly yeah so I think the view of it is that it follows the theme, at least what they're telling us is happening.

37:20They're not just pulling the rug from under us and going, actually, no, now we've panicked and just picked the starting team to win. I think it's a real statement of... Interesting. Because we said for the Aussie game, well, would they do this for the Springboks or even the All Blacks? Well, they have. And it's a real statement for me that the whole... I mean, they've been talking to us for years about it's a 23-man game, but you ask any player they want to start, they always want to start. England have rarely had a bench where you could legitimately say it's a 23-man game I think 2019 World Cup they probably did but I rewind 12 months to the game they lost here and England's bench that day was Theo Dan, Finn Baxter, Dan Cole, Nick Ezequie, Ben Curry, Alex Dombrant, Harry Randall and George Ford now in that collection Finn Baxter is now starting but he is still sort of England's and at that point had three caps?

38:12Had like three caps. Dan Cole had been asked to cling on for one more campaign but he was doing his duty by his country but England didn't have any other alternatives at that point and George Ford has now been promoted to start. You know, that's not a bench that would have come on to strike fear into any team. And actually, as we were writing and saying at the time, it wasn't a bench that Borthwick trusted either. Which was also the same in the World Cup where Theodham got two minutes at the end of games because it was like, we can't bring off Jamie George. In that Aussie week, when we were looking at why has he done this, it's like, well, because unusually, Borthwick, in his time as England coach, hasn't always emptied his bench.

38:51That's quite a throwback thing to do. When England won the World Cup, in extra time, Clive Woodward didn't even empty his bench. I think three of the seven stayed in their tracksuits. But the reason Borthwick hasn't done it is because he just didn't trust those players to come on at that time in the game. whereas now he I think he's got a much closer it's not 100 % there much closer to the point where there's no there's a much less drop in quality within his 23 now clearly he's starting some of his premier players on the bench for this game and has done this autumn Tom Curry Ellis Genge Will Stewart you know Lions Lions front row players there is an element of risk because you have to be in the game when these guys come on largely, I mean they come on 17 points down with 20 minutes, well they usually come on 51 52 minutes don't they, but it is the game now, whether you like it or not and a lot of people don't like it, a lot of people don't want half a new team coming on midway through the second half but them's the rules right, it is the game and so therefore England I applaud the fact that they've looked at it going right well how can we use this to our advantage And that is what they see in bringing on the big dogs at the end.

40:07Alfie: Don't you think as well, it feels to me that this England team is a total reflection of where international rugby also currently finds itself? So, I mean, we're speaking about the bench so much, chatting to the players through the week when we're up here. They're all mentioning it. They're all mentioning the importance of it. And we're seeing the importance of it. And then the other side of that, I think, that we're seeing this autumn is the kicking game and the aerial game. And this is an England selection. George Ford is your fly half. Tom Roebuck and Freddie Stewart back in the team. I know Tommy Freeman, part of that is down to injury.

40:37Alfie: But it feels to me like we are going to see this weekend almost the stereotype of what you think of Test Rugby being about. Set piece, defence, kicking game, and your bench has to have an impact. So this has been funny. We've been sort of talking about this this week. Again, we've used this word a few times over the last few months about the Borswick pitch as opposed to what actually happened. Well, we mentioned it after Fiji, didn't we? Yeah, and it's funny, isn't it? Because when you get a team like New Zealand who turn up and talk to you about the England team, they offer the other side and the different perspective from outside about what England are about.

41:10Whereas we often hear a lot about what England think of themselves or how they're trying to be. And when Steve Bordwick talks about the team, he says regularly now, we don't have a traditional English pack. We don't have the big beasts of 2019 and the Wooner Polars and Courtney Laws and Sinclair and all those guys who were taking people do the cleaners up front and more scrum whatever and we've got smaller athletic dynamic back row and fast twitch people out wide and then scott robinson comes on monday and goes aerial game northern hemisphere aerial game doesn't he that's my kiwi accent by the way i know yeah i'm glad you

41:44Alfie: said aerial game again just to make so people were able to work out what you said it's so it's interesting it's fast and like some of this is sort of slightly boring rugby stereotypes but that the New Zealand view of England is it's scrum, mole and kick high and England are trying to say no that's not us but that's probably what's coming up isn't it on Saturday. They talk a lot about speed of ball about wanting to attack fast and unsettled defences if we rewind to Dunedin Auckland a year ago it was a very different England was set up very differently they had Everything was founded on this super aggressive blitz defence, which required zero thought.

42:23And you just, as soon as the ball is live, everyone flies up, try and force fumbles, try and force mistakes, which they succeeded in doing. Damien McKenzie was all over the place in Dunedin, I remember. And on the back of it, as soon as they get it, they're going to go in attack. England were attacking from halfway. And it was kind of a risk-reward style of play. It was super exciting to watch, really intense, really energetic, but they couldn't sustain it through matches, hence the kind of final quarter drop-off. This England team are set up differently. The defence is still as intense, but it's not kind of gung-ho.

43:00They're asked to read and make decisions with it. It's a much more cerebral defensive system that England now have. Last autumn, they were caught in between two styles, and that's one of the reasons they were ripped apart so easily. in all those games. So, but the foundations of this team are still to attack with pace and generate momentum. But I don't think we're talking from the halfway line like we were a year ago. England are talking about they're going to be measured and sensible getting out of their half. Basically means that if they can then win an aerial ball on the 22, just outside the 22, that's when they then want to attack and take advantage of disorganised defence, broken field.

43:41I don't think we'll see England doing what they did do in New Zealand in 2024 with Manny Ferraboso running from the halfway line and really trying to carve them open from a long way out but their first thought is going to be let's apply some pressure let's put ourselves in a better position from which to attack and that's George Ford's game plan mentality really it's like we could go from here but if we can move 30 yards downfield and go from there, we're in a better place. So therefore the aerial game comes in. So I'd like to link two things here. One was my mate Richie, we're going to call him now because I've met him twice, one virtually, one in real life so he's now my friend.

44:30But the thing he mentioned in our interview there, which he wasn't specific to England but was talking about the difference between great teams and good teams is nailing those clutch moments that South Africa are really good at now. the kind of you can get to 60 70 minutes you're in the game but can you nail it and linking that now to I've got some good stats for a Monday piece from Opta the other day which perfectly sometimes the stats you're going I didn't really agree with what I thought there but this absolutely nailed it I was so pleased because it the thing that we keep watching them do is get into the 22 and butcher chances isn't it and the stats showed that in this calendar year they have the best rate at getting into the 22 of any team in the world england this is england above south africa they get like 12.3 i think it was entries per game and they are the second worst team in the world at converting them so they score at like two and a bit 2.4 i think it was points per entry which is only argentina are the team that are below them and shock south africa at the top of that chart.

45:35And they're scoring four points per entry. So that is the fundamental this time. They're probably not going to get, well, they might do, but let's say they get eight entries to the 22, not 12. You've got to score four times. What minute does George Ford attempt his first drop goal? Yeah. Because I think these are the games that sort of kick pressure style that we've just outlined, that there's a perception against certain opponents that it's boring and it's and let's just you know the England are better than the Wallabies today let's let's carve them open let's beat them kick to the corner like yeah and it's harder it's a harder sell and you can talk to George Ford enough over the years to that he was he said it after the Wallabies game he felt a need to justify almost the way that England were playing it was like oh we're not we don't just kick we don't just kick we kick because we want to get the ball back to attack kicking with a brain kind of thing I think these are the games this game in particular all-backs game is a game where you won't sense that discontilement at Twickenham everyone understands if you're going to beat them you may have to be pragmatic all day long and if England get so their average is 12 let's say they get 10 entries into 22 and because they haven't been converting them kick the points why not if they were to come out each time with the 3 points that will increase their average return for the year and give them a better shot winning the game.

47:00I mean, so much of rugby is enduring, isn't it? I mean, the 0-2 and 0-3 England team, the first half of all of their games was get 15 points from threes, wasn't it? Sometimes things like that just don't change. I wouldn't be surprised if George Ford's senses are the moments gone. I would not be surprised if England's first attack ends in a drop goal. as a bit of a statement of like bang three points next time we're down there New Zealand have to be aware that England might just go three six nine suddenly if you do that you're in the game and I think these are the games where the Twickenham crowd will will understand that this is the strategy behind it I really do and I think that if we again flip it around to the All Blacks if you're a New Zealander you're going the thing that gives you hope as an All Black fan is that the All Blacks are proving that they can do that thing the clutch like Chicago they had Barrett McKenzie break the game open they had McKenzie in Scotland like I don't know how he scored that try like contorting his back into four different positions and all that they are nailing these moments where they're not actually playing that well but they're coming out and they're winning them whereas England are not necessarily all the time they're winning the games but they're butchering a lot of chances to get there so I think if you're Robertson and you're New Zealand and if it is tight at the end you're like we've got Barrett and Mackenzie Surveyor and Satiti and all those lads on the pitch there we've got more game breakers and more experience than you at doing this

48:32Alfie: and I think the New Zealand team selection does talk to what they expect the game to be which is what as we've just been speaking about that aerial battle I think it's arguably their best aerial back three that front row is really interesting as well because England as you said Alex well Ethan DeGroote and Fletcher Newell as your starters their strength coming off the bench to Mighty Williams he's a giant Yeah. I've been to the Lensbury a couple of times where they're staying in Teddington this week. And two things have struck me. Tamatai Williams is a giant of a man. He's massive. And then on the flip side, Damian McKenzie spoke to us today on Thursday.

49:08And like we know he's quite small, but he's tiny. He's tiny. He's like, what, 5 '8", maybe. But he's not just short. He's very slim and thin as well.

49:19Alfie: For a rugby player, he's got a very slight frame. He's a remarkable rugby player, isn't he? Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, as we said already, it's going to be awesome. Finish us off on this game and then we'll just rattle through maybe some of the other matches. Do England get their ninth ever victory over the All Blacks on Saturday? Yes. Yeah. Love it. Love the optimism. Shall I just be the negative one then, just so we've got a balance? I know exactly what you mean about these games. The closer the game comes, the more you think, and especially when the teams are named, the more you think, oh, blimey, actually McKenzie off the bench.

49:51There probably isn't a better backline game breaker. But I just feel England. Do you know what? Maybe some of it is because we've had so much of England going like, go on, be today, be today, go on, be today. Some of it is just like, I'd quite like to see them just do it. And then just to be sort of no caveat, great win. Oh, definitely. Well done, you. I hope they do it.

50:12Alfie: I hope they do it because it answers, you know, we've been saying a week, haven't we? Well, they say they've been learning the lessons. This is the game that can prove it. So I'd love it if they do it. But yeah, as I said earlier, as the week has gone on, I've just thought, I think these teams are really evenly matched. I think England absolutely can, but I think there's not much between them. So let's see how it pans out. Other matches this weekend, Wales-Japan. Wow. It's massive for Wales. It's huge, isn't it? So if people don't know, the context around this is, this takes a small bit of explanation, but basically Wales are 12th ranked in the world.

50:43And it's ridiculous to say that really, isn't it? And Japan are 13th and there's hardly anything between them on the rankings. and you're a better man than me if you know exactly how the ranking algorithm works but essentially you'd be if you beat someone you take points off them so there's a bit of a swing there you go and the extra bit of it is that the next world cups are expanded world cups so and the seed bandings are going to be done in sixes rather than fours so if you're out the top 12 then you're going to get two big dogs in your pool and the next bit to say there is that some third places in the Australian World Cup will go through to the last 16 but if you come third in your group good luck you because you're going to probably play a last 16 game against the box the All Blacks France so in that context this is massive because if they lose they're they're quite likely to be 13th there's a Japan Georgia game which might change it a bit if they win they're going to definitely stay in the top 12 because the draw is done on december the 3rd so in in that in that context i know it's two years away but man that's huge i was gonna say is there an argument that

51:53Alfie: actually right now in the context of welsh rugby that is not really that important yeah maybe yeah like what ranking they lose at home to japan and not a very good japan that and yeah that's bad but in terms of the whole world ranking thing yeah like the next world cup it doesn't matter what Well, there's no way they're going to win it. It matters right now, but I think the wider context that we'll outline is important because it just shows how deep a hole Wales are trying to dig themselves out of. Yeah. I mean, they would be in the same banding as Samoa, Portugal, Georgia. These are traditionally tier two, like really tier two countries, aren't they?

52:33And that's the level that Wales are living at at the moment. the game itself I mean like what I remember we were obviously in Australia watching the lines but catching up with some of those Wales Japan games in Japan and that I think though I know they won the other the second one which is their only win in 19 isn't it 20 tests now um the first one I was just like this is so alarming where you had good players like Aaron Wainwright just absolutely losing their minds, not knowing what on earth to do. And actually, I thought, oddly, on Sunday, Wales looked quite good, quite sparky and quite exciting.

53:11And then you go, oh, 50 points.

53:14Alfie: Their attack looked good, but it was the kind of defence set piece. And they lost Jack Morgan, and you're just going, oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, as we say, massive, massive game for Wales. Ireland-Australia? Yeah, funny one. You don't know where you are with Australia. Italy, full credit. absolute full credit to their win it's not like an Italy team from years gone by where you just go wow come from nowhere but Australia beat the Lions could have won that series and now they're going and losing to Italy and they could go and beat Ireland we don't know like it feels like they're weirdly crawling over the line towards the end of the year when you know I was exchanging messages with Jonathan Dreddard from the Sydney Morning Herald about this subject and you look back and the super rugby season is short in comparison to the northern hemisphere season the Wallabies were arrested for that and yet ever since i mean they beat japan in tokyo but only just didn't turn up against england lost to italy they just look exhausted and flat and and they've you know they don't have skelton they do have james o 'connor back and then nikitao back but they don't have skelton they're gonna have to you kind of hope for the wallabies that they have been you know i don't know saving saving some energy for this game because if they turn it on they're a dangerous team but they haven't looked anywhere close to doing that on this tour and I think for Andy Farrell he'll see it as a banana skin because because of where Australia have ended up being towards the end of the year Ireland need to win that.

54:42Ireland if they lose that that is a huge alarm bell and Sam Prennigast at 10 is interesting the Ireland have not looked that good they've looked a bit lacking in ideas and sort of attacking clarity maybe and Andrew Porter on the bench as well which is rare yeah or so I guess sometimes that when Healy was still playing they would have give Healy half an hour wouldn't they and then put Porter on as a sort of like 50 minute sub with half time in the way but I think it would be really revealing if Ireland lost that game because you sort of go oh wow but if they kind of play decently enough and win it's sort of like OK, not much learnt about that maybe.

55:19Ireland are not as bad as they could have been, but they're not winning that game and going, OK, cool, we're fine, we're back, don't worry about anything. But losing it, there's way more for Ireland to lose than to win, I think, on Saturday.

55:32Alfie: Yeah, and I know, obviously, Italy, South Africa, France, Fiji, other matches as well, but finishers off Sunday games, Scotland, Argentina, Scotland looking to bounce back. That could be a belter, couldn't it? Could be, yeah. That's an exciting one. I quite like, we sort of, some people go, oh no, Six Nations days, the Sunday match is always the kind of graveyard one. But I quite like, selfishly, I like having the Sunday. Because often it's, personally for us, it's like, get your work done, finished. Like, then you can watch the heavy Sunday roast and watch the Sunday match. But that's going to be great, isn't it?

56:01Two really evenly matched teams. I mean, talking about how you thought Wales were quite good and still got beaten heavily. Like, Argentina got some unbelievable players. Like that Matera like wiper kick on the left foot and all that. It's just ridiculous.

56:17Alfie: It was a weekend actually that I feel like we kind of saw the development of modern forwards in front of us. With New Zealand's first try when Josh Lord breaks through and just the kind of patience and timing of the pass so that they actually scored the try. The Matera kick. It was kind of these skill sets of forwards. It was unbelievable. Yeah, I mean really a tough game for Scotland but I think quite a telling one. Can I make a wider point there very quickly? So I've spent my week looking at old footage of England All Blacks games. And here's my tepid take on it all. Rugby has never been better than it is now.

56:49You watch a game from 1973, 83, 93, it's dreadful. Absolutely horrendous spectacle. The rucks have got 15 people in them. Like Kieran Bracken was telling me, he was like my kids who are obviously now playing in England 20s and Saris are like, Dad, why did you used to dive past? And he was like, mate, you dived away so that you didn't get your head filled in in the ruck. like it was ridiculous and like Ben Youngs was talking about his dad played in 83 Nick Youngs and both were scrum halves and Ben Youngs was looking at it with modern eyes at some of the old footage again and was like it's hilarious because you've got 40 meters of space and you just can't get the ball to it so like anyone who has road tinted spectacles about what rugby used to look like please enjoy what we've got now where you've got Andre Esthais and able to play 12 and back row you've got someone like ben are playing matera like no rugby we've had never had this many athletic incredible talented players and the fact that this weekend of games you could probably flip a coin on about four of them is brilliant isn't it like we like all of this stuff don't

57:52Alfie: we this is great that's too big a point to finish the pod on i feel like we could do a whole pod on that potentially but there we go that's how there'll be people who go oh no but 1971 it's like there was like 100 set pieces in those games that's not an exaggeration, there literally were give me Twickenham on Saturday over all of that. Well enjoy the game this weekend, we'll be back with you Saturday night, stands at Twickenham are we going to be talking to you about historic England victory or is it going to be another missed opportunity we shall wait and see. Alex, see you then see you then.

58:22Alfie: Will, see you there. Let's have it can't wait. Look forward to it, we'll see you late on Saturday

58:31Alfie: Join me for a special episode with PWC UK's Marco Amitrano and WPP's Michael Froelich, recorded at the Greater Together Conference in Los Angeles, California. We'll discuss how partnerships between the US and the UK can drive economic growth and shape the future of transatlantic collaboration. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. While every other channel is fighting for your customers' attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears. And when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising.

59:08Alfie: It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. Acast gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, post-read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.