Season Preview: Who will win the 2026/2027 Gallagher Prem?

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1:46Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. The new Prem Rugby season is not far away and we're on our travels. It's Alfie here, Will alongside me. Hello, haven't seen you for a while, mate. It has been a little while. You've been a good summer post-Argentina. Although we've sort of been dismembered voices, haven't we, through The Greatest Rival. You've been podding with Alex and a cast, Jamie Wall, Elgin, others, and I've sort of been not doing that, but I was a voice. I was a, this is Rugby's Greatest Rivals. Get all the big lines. Which felt a bit unnatural after a while when you said it seven times.

2:21But hopefully. Can you just do that one again, please, Will? Oh, God, okay. And if you haven't listened to Rugby's Greatest Rivals, then you can find it on the Ruck feed. Yeah, absolutely. You can go and find it. But where are we today? I say we're on our travels. Well, we're at Twickenham. We should call it Allianne Stadium because that's what it's named now. We're actually in a cupboard. Well, not really a cupboard. We're in a cloakroom. We're at the launch day of the Prem, which we do every year. This one we should flag has happened a couple of weeks before you're actually listening to this.

2:50So if news has changed, that's why in the intervening period. But yeah, we're sitting in a cupboard in a back room with some signed boards behind us for the England Rugby Internationals. Apparently, this is a room that you can only come into if you've got a cap. So congratulations on your first England cap, Alfie. Thanks very much. And mine too. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, it's okay. It's not maybe the most elite setup of all the other content creators here, but we crack on. Yeah, this is one of those days that we've been to the last couple of years, haven't we? And we've got a load of interviews, which is what's coming up for you as well.

3:23and to kind of preview the season, but it is a busy day. There are a lot of players running around in kit, all the directors of rugby, or most of the directors of rugby are here, and they basically get a whole load of content, which I think gets filtered to you throughout the season. And we also come up here and we try and speak to a few different individuals. Yeah, so who have we got coming, Alf? We've got a varied cast, let's say. Yeah, so we're going to be speaking to Finn Baxter, Harlequins and England prop, missed a big chunk of last season, didn't he, kind of post-December. he was out with a foot injury but he is ready to return.

3:54We're going to be speaking to him. We're going to be speaking to Dan McFarland up at Newcastle. Yeah, another new DOR. We've done Newcastle DORs for the last couple of seasons and another one's turned up. Well, I think a lot of people are going to be thinking how are Newcastle going to get on? How are Newcastle Red Bulls? As ever, yeah. Bucket load of new signings. But we'll be speaking to him and we'll have a chat with the defending champions Northampton Saints. Finn Smith is going to join us as well. So that's the cast list. Great. Lots to get into. What interests you? Top of your head, if I was to ask you, new Prem Rugby season, what springs out to you?

4:22So my hot take is there are four or five clubs which must have better seasons than they did last season. And I think they will dictate where everyone else finishes because they all can't have a better season than last year because there's only 10. It's a bit like the Six Nations, isn't it? Where you go, well, if they're top and they're second, oh no, I'm putting them third, fourth, fifth. You know what I mean? So the four or five that I'm going to land on are obviously Newcastle being one, Quinns, Gloucester, Sale and Saracens. And I know I've named like half the league there, but I think that they encapsulate my fascination with the early parts of the season and where we're all going to end up come June.

5:07Well, should we start with Quinns? Because we'll hear from Finn Baxter in just a second. I suppose their major signing is probably George Furbank. Yeah. My question... Sampi Swig as a tighthead might be one of those unsung ones where you go, oh, hang on, we didn't know anything about him, but man, they need a tighthead and there is one. And the Zimbabwean wing, whose name I forget now off the top of my head, but I think is a really exciting signing. So there are others as well. I think George Furbank is one of the main ones. And when I look at Harlequins, my question is always, how do they get the best out of Marcus Smith?

5:35They're not a one-man team, I know that, but I think this Quinns team at their best is Marcus Smith playing at his best. How are they able to do that? And does George Furbank factor into that as kind of another playmaker, classy operator, ball handler? Because Jared Evans is gone now, so there's no sort of other flat out international number 10. Yeah. So you imagine that Furbank steps in. But yeah, they're sort of Marcus Smith RFC, aren't they? Really, Harlequins. And he has not really been the Marcus Smith that he was five years ago, four years ago. and actually we probably talked about it one of the last few pods we did way back in last season where Marcus was really interesting and open about he was sort of talking about it in an England context but his sort of first 25 caps were quite different to his second 25 caps the second 25 being the bit where he sort of gets shunted at fullback and has never really felt natural there so that's that's fascinating but the Quinns thing for me is I'm interested to talk to fin baxter about this when we get him on but the whole identity thing because hamstrung remember back to january when it was all going pear-shaped after the big game and we got lori dalrymple on the podcast and we talked quite a lot about the quinn's dna and the fact that the players are very involved in the plan and after a while you go like the plan's not working lads the recruitment and retention has been very poor they've lost a lot of young good english players some of them have become other nationalities, Lewis Liner being an example, who we've had in the pod before in Italy.

7:07And you think they've lost a lot of what made them Quinns. And so I'm fascinated to see how they play, how the Robbie Deans things works, where he's on Zoom for some of the season and he's in this country, other bits of the season. Rob Hunter, the forwards coach, is interesting. Coach Chiefs to their double winning era and then left, but has got a back category of winning stuff. Jason Gilmore was a defence coach who then got put into the head coach's job. Felt like it wasn't in control at all. He's now the head man. Got the attack coach for the Hurricanes, which sounds exciting because you think Hurricanes tore up Super Rugby last year.

7:45If they could do that with Quinns, happy day. So there's a lot that Quinns need to sort out this season about who they are. I feel like they lost their identity massively in the last couple of years. And so they're going to be fascinating, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I tell you what, let's take a quick pause here. Let's hear from a man within the Quinns set up. Finn Baxter joins the pod next. Finn Baxter, good to see you. Hiya, nice to see you too. How are you doing? Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. I'm healthy. Well, that's maybe the best place for us to start. Good to hear. How is the foot? That was the injury that ended your last season?

8:17Yeah, it's really good. I'm fully back in training now and absolutely loving it. They're kind of, I don't know, it took me to about halfway to kind of really miss training and now I'm just so happy to be training again. You've got that kind of puppy dog energy being back in training. Yeah, charging around and lads are like, chill out, please chill out. Because it was December, right? That you injured the foot. Yeah, late December. And yeah, then we had an issue about four months odd in and then yeah, now we're here. And that's when you, was it you decided to have, because you were almost about to come back towards the end of last season, right?

8:55And then you had this, was it surgery to kind of correct everything yeah so i was i was jude's for kind of last last game of the season but um yeah there was there was just some complications and we needed to take out what was in yeah so what actually did you do to your foot so it's my lids frank um which is a joint in your foot between the first and well it's not really first but a cuneiform which is like an island bone and the second metatarsal um and they basically put a wire in where that ligament would be right to support it while it was healing by the way other than metatarsal you could have made up all of those other words and we wouldn't have a we all know metatarsal because of like david beckham in 2002 until you got until you got to metatarsal i was like you could literally be making words up so so okay so you've got a basically a metal ligament in your foot now Well, had, and that was what was taken out whenever it was back end of the year.

9:52And on the basis of it, it was kind of altering a bit of how my foot was moving. Okay. And so now it's out, it's freer. And how does that particularly affect you as a prop? Like stability in the scrum is quite a lot through your feet, obviously. It's really important. And that's why I've been, well, you're always diligent with rehab, have but I know it's it's almost like second important to my neck kind of thing and um yeah I'm just really happy I've done the the hard work and yeah it should hold up and I guess nice too so one thing that happened while we've all been away is that they renewed all the England contracts and you're still on that list yeah and there's been a couple like Will Stewart's a similar boat to you who's been out most of the season is that quite heartening to be like okay I've missed basically most of each season but I'm still in the plans I'm still an England player because maybe in previous years it'd be like well mate you haven't been available so you know take your chances it seems a bit more settled now with that stuff yeah it is it is a very nice feeling and I've been in you know in contact over my rehab with England staff and their their interests that hadn't dipped because I was injured they were you know still asking how I was doing and what I've been up to but yeah.

11:12How involved were England in the discussions to have the surgery? Yeah it was kind of aligned club and country physios together and luckily it was a bit of an obvious okay it was a bit of an obvious one. So was it one of those things you kind of needed it done regardless I was wondering whether there was any part of it that was kind of long-term planned world cup at the end of this season so get it done now? No I got to the point with my foot where I had developed a stress fracture because of the way the wire had changed, the way my foot was moving. And again, there was probably some other things in there as well that we weren't doing properly.

11:49But that had to happen. Was it, I mean, it was a frustrating scene for everyone at Quinn's, wasn't it, just because of results? But was it even more frustrating for you that you were watching it and couldn't do anything about it on the field? And you were kind of going like, oh man, I wish I was in there kind of helping. yeah i mean i now understand what my mum and dad talk about when they said they've had a tough day it's like i've just played and you've had a tough day but yes it is tough being a fan you mean yeah yeah watching not being able to impact and again it it just felt it felt like oh we're in a we're in a tough spot and i can't add i can't even take responsibility um which i found really difficult and was really quite tough.

12:37And where the players sit at the stoop, I could not sit down. I was up, walking up and down the stairs, standing up. I just couldn't stand still and it was actually minging. I really hated it, but hopefully not too much more. And I suppose also you can't be that guy who hasn't been playing, who comes in on a Monday going, I've got all these great ideas. Why aren't you doing X, Y and Z? Because they're like, okay, Finn, but we're on the field at the moment. There's that challenge too. Yeah, and I didn't have any silver bullets or anything. And I was very involved in meetings and a bit of planning anyway.

13:16So it wasn't as if, yeah, I thought I had the answer. And it kind of kept me sane, kind of to keep in that routine of preparing, reviewing and repeat. So what does this summer look like? because it's been quite a fresh broom come through the place, like Robbie Deans, been in and out, hasn't he? Rob Hunter, new forwards coach, lots of new coaches. Jason Gilmore's absolutely the head man now, isn't he? What's been different or what do you expect to be like when we get going? Well, this new coaching staff are winners. They've won multiple things over their careers and are very impressive. and the new, almost the new way of doing things.

14:02Just because we're not taking it as a given, just because we did something in the past that we're going to keep doing the same way. We're looking for all those extras, all those extra little wins. And I've been so impressed. And everyone says they're having a good pre-season until the first game, so we're quite aware of that. But I've been really impressed. And having not been involved the whole way through as well, coming in you know last what two three weeks yeah I've been I've been pretty impressed and on that point of you don't necessarily just keep doing things because you used to one of the biggest things always with Quinns is how you play because it's always been such a like this is the Quinns DNA we're quite attacking that's based off you guys at the front obviously when you've won titles it's been with good front rows but there's generally been an acceptance that it's like let's chuck the ball around a bit is that one of those things that isn't necessarily a given now it doesn't have to be swashbuckling attacking play all the time well again that's what we've really put emphasis on is uh our set piece our set piece and our battle and because that ultimately is what allows us to do what people would um say is the quinsway the first thing which uh which is like throwing the ball around which you're talking about but without you know joe marler wilco low will collier having an absolute mega scrum and line out they can't do that um and that's what and that's what we again rob putting massive uh importance on and that we understand we understand that we really have to up our game is exciting yeah because it puts it puts so much more um emphasis and importance on what I do.

15:46And I want to be the best. And with someone who's going to keep pushing me, like Rob, it's what I want. Well, Finn, look, we really appreciate your time. And I know Quinns fans listening will look back at every successful Quinns side, as Will said. Yes, it's kind of had the stars out wide, but it's been built on that platform up front. So we're excited to see how you guys go and how you go personally back from injury this season. Thanks for joining us on The Rock. Thank you. Well, great to have Finn Baxter on, Will. We mentioned it with him there, but been out for a long, long time with an injury.

16:16And I suppose he, like all of the England players, particularly those centrally contracted ones, are hoping that this is the start of an incredibly long season that ends in the World Cup. And I think he's important for both the club and country, isn't he? Because you saw in the England stuff, losing their ability to have their kind of version of the POM squad bench that he was part of. Or he would sometimes start, sometimes bench with Genge. That one-two punch was lost when he wasn't in the squad. And I feel like Ellis Gens probably suffered from not having a big rival too. So his reappearance for Quinns would be great for Quinns.

16:51And I think positive for England too. So I'm pleased he's back. And do you know what? We were just speaking about Marcus Smith and what the Harlequins looked like before and what's the identity. But I think actually the biggest sign of how Quinns are going to get on this season is what does their front five look like in the opening couple of rounds of the brand? For sure. And that's where I think of the few that I mentioned at the top. I feel like they're the ones that are probably not going to nail it now. because they've missed the recruitment cycle. So their big, bad front five, they haven't been able to sign.

17:19They've got a couple. We mentioned Sampi Swigas before, and Finn Baxter will feel like a new signing because he's back. But the big, hard, gnarly locks don't look like they're quite there. Whereas maybe after the World Cup, when people move off contracts and stuff like that, they'll be able to pick up a few, and then you start going, okay, that's a front five that can compete again. But of my few, I feel like they might nip up a couple of positions, but maybe not be one of those that kind of ping up to fourth. But to go back to a question that you've, I think we've definitely asked before, you might have already asked it on this episode.

17:51Is that good enough for another season of kind of, wow, it's coming next year? I'm not so sure it is. We'll wait and see. We'll see what they look like. We're jumping to conclusions there, but really great to chat to Finn Baxter. So let's get on to another one of the teams that you've mentioned, because they are a fascination, Will. Newcastle Red Bulls, loads of players through the door, new coaches, new identity, the new branding that came in last year. We know all about that. New colour of kit, by the way. And they actually have their kit this time because when we were here last year and we were chatting to Steve Diamond, the takeover had happened so quickly that they hadn't been able to get anything sorted just yet.

18:21But they are in their kit. And Dan McFarlane stopped by the Newcastle boss and he had a chat with us. Well, Dan, really nice to meet you and welcome on to the Ruck. How are you? How's things? Yeah, good, thanks. Having a good summer. Weather's been good in the North East, so it's been unusual, apparently, but I'm sort of hoping that continues. Yeah, I think it's been similar for all of us. You say you've had a good summer, busy summer, I would imagine, with everything going on at Newcastle, lots of players joining, a lot to kind of get aligned on. How's all of that going? How's pre-season gone?

18:53Yeah, busy is exactly the word, but busy good. Lots of new players, lots of new staff, lots of new ideas and things to pull together. So that makes for a busy time. But it's been brilliant. We've got a lot of people in the same boat coming in in Newcastle. And we've had a great time doing it. I was going to say, I was looking at the list of all the Prem clubs and the players they've signed. And by some distance, understandably so, in terms of where you are with this project, Newcastle's list was a lot longer than everyone else's. How do you go about kind of getting that many new faces in the building and turning it into a squad that's ready to take on the season?

19:33Yeah, look, it's a huge challenge. And like, it's not a challenge that you see in rugby at all, really, I suppose. Moana Pacifica did it a few years ago, pulling together a brand new squad. But outside of that, you know, not since Newcastle and Richmond and the dawn of professional rugby, as so many new players have been brought into a club. How do you do it? Well, you've got to have a direction. You've got to know where you're going. You've got to know what you're trying to achieve. I think the idea of having a rugby club owned by Red Bull makes life a little bit easier in terms of the kind of club you're going to be and the kind of rugby you want to play.

20:13And it's easy to buy into that. So pulling those guys together and connecting under a banner is one way of doing it. When you say that, Dan, do you mean they're known for sort of extreme sports and entertainment does that dictate how you want to play the game you want to be quite a in a vertical entertaining team that can look different ways can't it but how do you want to play because it could be completely different to what we've seen because of all the changes with you and the rest of the squad you know obviously there are constraints in rugby and there are ways to uh to to win games that have uh tried and tested and and and lasted uh lasted over a long period of time but bottom line is red bull are a high energy drink they're they're known for buying into things that they see as exciting, they see as innovative.

20:59And, you know, as a team, I think it definitely is on us to make sure that we're playing that kind of high-energy rugby, that kind of exciting rugby. And, you know, that's enthusing for us as a coaching staff. It's certainly enthusing for the players. That's what we'll be going after. But we've got to win, and we understand in the northeast of England The weather doesn't necessarily allow you to do those kind of things all the time. So we've got to be able to balance that to win. And what about the whole project, really? Because it's been this time last year, I think, at this launch event, Newcastle turned up having just been taken over to the point where the kit wasn't ready and there were lots of changes very quickly.

21:45But you're fresh. What is going to be different this season? because it seems for the last few years we've been saying at the beginning of the season, wow, Newcastle, a really interesting project, let's see how it goes. And getting to the end of the season, it's sort of, last two seasons at least, been a similar season of a couple of wins and not much more. Is success, well, where is success for you in the table or number of wins? Are you looking at numbers or is it style of play? Yeah, I think it's a really good question. But, you know, because the project is so new and this really is the dawn of the Red Bull ownership.

22:21Last season was a little bit different because you had a bunch of guys who'd spent a good part of the previous few years really not sure what they were doing and where they were going because they didn't have the benefit of security. Now there is security. Now there are new players. There's new coaches. You know, the resources around being able to do stuff are so much better. But because we're so new and the challenge is so tough in terms of the Gallagher Premiership at the moment, you know, we don't know what we can achieve. You know, so we're going in with open minded. We're not setting any limits on what we're capable of as a club in the short or the long term.

23:08We know where we want to go in terms of being at the top table in the Gallagher Premiership and eventually at the top table in Europe. But for the time being, we've got a lot of ambitious young men. They're not sure what they can achieve in this environment. So, you know, that's our brief, really. We don't know, but we're certainly going to find out. Can I chuck two names at you? One who's not joined up yet, Finianganoffo. What's the situation with him? because a few months ago was a bit of, will he, won't he actually come? When's he going to arrive and what's the situation with him? The situation remains the same.

23:47Fahey is coming in in November. That's where it stands at the moment. And as far as I'm aware, that remains the same. And just in terms of his excitement as a player, like he's breaking records in Super Rugby, scoring so many tries. Is he the sort of guy that captures what you were talking about earlier of that high energy excitement? You've got to get guys like him on the ball and Christian Wade and Werner Cock and those guys, don't you? Yeah, look, we've got a lot of players like that. We've got a lot of players who are showing that kind of thing in training who want to be expressive and have got a bit of individualism about them that makes them different from other people.

24:23Red Bull is about giving people wings and the opportunity to play in a team that wants to be exciting allows people to express themselves in that way. And rugby's not just a sport of throwing the ball around and fancy feet. There are big men up front who their wings or the expression of their wings comes in different ways. So we've got a squad full of guys who are going to add to that overall goal. Dan, can I ask about Gregor Townsend and his role and how that works in terms of the relationship and conversations between the two of you? He's kind of got his certain amount of days a year that he works on the Red Bull project.

25:04So how regularly are you in contact with him and what's the kind of nature of those discussions? Yeah, look, Gregor and I obviously know each other very well and work together with Glasgow, work together with Scotland. And when Gregor spoke to me about coming to Newcastle, it was one of the main reasons that I thought that the job was a fantastic opportunity. so having Gregor as a resource on an advice thing, on a guidance element is really useful for us as coaches and the squad as a whole I'd be in regular contact with Gregor anyway whether he was consultant for the Red Bulls or not and we bounce ideas off each other and he gives us advice on direction a lot of the time.

26:03So did he help recruit you? Well, that was part of the conversation of you joining? Well, certainly a conversation around the opportunity to be able to come in and take hold of the project in its initial years, yeah, 100%. And do you know, is it one of those where you're taking it season by season or because of the fact that you've got the big bracket, there has to be a 5, 10, 15-year vision of what it ends up looking like. And where does Gregor's role sit within that and the whole project? Because there's lots of stuff that will be going on around the place all the time, won't there? Like rebuilding the stadium and things like that.

26:42How much is he involved in that and how much do you think he'll continue to be involved post-27 World Cup and all that sort of stuff? I can only speak for his involvement with me around the rugby side of things and the direction that that's going in. But what a great resource having somebody with so much experience to be able to guide a project like this as a consultant. In terms of the long-term goals, as I said to you earlier, we want to be dining at the top table in the Gallagher Prem and eventually in Europe. And that'll happen over a number of years. For the moment, we're trying to tie 26 new players together and a brand new set of coaches.

27:30So we'll not focus too much further than the one step in front of us. Well, Dan, look, we've kept you long enough. We really appreciate your time. Good to meet you. And exciting season ahead, isn't it, up in the North East? Yeah, really looking forward to it. We had a game last weekend and there were 14 tries. Hopefully the weather stays dry in the Northeast and we can get some more exciting rugby out there.

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30:09So Dan McFarlane stopping by Will. It's always good when we get people early on in the day isn't it because they do about a thousand interviews today and he spoke to us early on so we appreciate that um some interesting stuff in there isn't there from a red bull's point of view i feel like we've learned more there about the whole gregor townsend situation than we have done for a while there um he was just quite flat out and honest and open with it which is good we appreciate that and it does always sound like he's a lot more involved than people have made it seem before so he's meant to have a 30 day a year contract but off air we were joking that does he have like a time stamp thing where it's like oh that whatsapp that's a half an hour phone call does that count to the 30 days or and it sounds like he was very involved in recruiting mcfarland so people in scotland listening to this in a world cup year are probably being like can he just do one job properly which has been the whole two jobs two knee thing and then look that he was under massive pressure before the six nations and then put 50 on France and that kind of dissipates and you go well maybe you can do two things at once but that's really interesting I think.

31:12Well that's the thing though right is he is kind of putting distance between it because he knows that the scrutiny and criticism he'll get. The optics. Exactly but then if Scotland play well as you say beating England in the Six Nations beating France, played well against South Africa, caused the box some problems in the Nations Championship. If Scotland do okay then I think he's fine. It's if the results turn again there's going to be a whole load of criticism. And I guess with Scotland as ever you're looking at the next year and you go 27 Six Nations they've got to be competing for a title because that's better and they were closer than ever last season to being in a shout on the final day all that and then the World Cup they've got to beat Ireland that's it that pool game in Perth is huge which has been the same story for the last two World Cups and they haven't managed it but I would be what do the kids say a shuketh if he's not do they I'm the wrong person to ask I think you've made that up I would be shuketh if Townsend isn't much more involved as a figure at Newcastle Red Bulls after the 27 World Cup, it sounds like he's basically doing it already.

32:14Yeah, it sounds that way. Final question on Newcastle. Do we need to temper expectations because they've got like 24 new players or are we right to start having hopes that they're going to do more, which with the greatest respect to them, you don't have to do too much to do much more than they have the last few seasons. What's a realistic expectation? Well, they've had a zero win prem and then two win prems. And at the start of each season, well, last couple, it's all been, right, here we go, fresh brew, Newcastle. They're not going to be the same as last time. And then you put on their game on a Friday or Sunday.

32:50Usually they're on one of those two days. And you go, still 57-10, lads. Like, that needs to change. And all this style of play stuff. and Stephen Jones last year making them more attacking felt like it just made them even leakier. And the stuff that McFarlane was talking about, about being cohesive and all that is difficult, but it's their own choice. They didn't need to release 25 players and sign 25 more, like change almost their entire squad. And then you get into the whole sort of franchise argument around the Prem and you go, well, Newcastle existing at the bottom is acceptable because they're not getting relegated but in time they're going to have to start hitting metrics and paying up to caps and minimum spends and all that they can't just exist anymore and I think there'll be internal and external pressure in the next three years for when before we get to the point where they're trying to expand it to 12 for them to really start making an impact and they can say a lot that they're doing that off the field but it must match with the on field and it must match soon because otherwise you start going okay so the identity of this place has been ripped out and they've saved the club fantastic but the product's the same on the field which is where I'm fascinated in the style of play stuff because I remember and all right for the most part Newcastle certainly in recent history have struggled haven't they I remember doing games up at Kingston Park kind of under Dean Richards where yes they weren't necessarily the top team in the league but I saw so many like Bath and Bristol teams go up there and get beat and Kingston Park was a really difficult away day which I think should be part of the vision and the plan and the goal here is to make that a reality again make it horrible but how do you do that do you do that playing a style of rugby that fits the brand or do you do that playing a style of rugby which is very different to the brand fits the prem yeah from where it was last season where it is loads of loads of tries still And we get 80 pointers sometimes, and it's no longer the league that's tight every week.

34:54It's the league that you're 5 % off and you get filled in. You get absolutely annihilated. Yeah, they're constantly a fascination. They've added some beef up front, and it's a bit like the Quinns thing, isn't it? Fini and Ganoffo can't score 19 tries in a season if Russ Tuima's not banging people up front. And you still feel like the teams that do win the Prem have an elite 9 and 10. And they've signed Rafi Kwerke and they've got Benitez Cruz. And you think that's the 9 thing. You feel like, okay, yeah, Rafi Kwerke possibly should have been more of a test match player if he hadn't been so injured.

35:30A lot of injuries, yeah. At the 10, you're kind of going like, is their next big signing a big 10 in a year or so? Again, after the World Cup. I was going to say that's often post-World Cup, isn't it? That a lot of the 10s might move around. And this is a long way of me answering your question by going, I've got no idea what Newcastle is going to do because how do you? And I think it would be refreshing and great if they finished 6th or 7th, not 10th. And actually, I know, chatting to someone the other day at Prem Towers, and they're pretty confident. They're like, yeah, I think they'll get in the Champions Cup, which we know only means like 8th.

36:03But that's way better than usual. But surely they've got to make, as you say, Kingston Park, they've got to win target winning half the home games, don't they? They've got to beat the teams that are worse than them at Kingston Park. And that's five wins. And then you start going, okay, that's a season you can build off. And then take one or two away. Winning five, six, seven games is a lot better than they've had before. I mean, Quinn's only won six last season. So that's probably what they're going to aim for. I can't expect them to suddenly get to the playoffs. Do much more than that, yeah. But I think, look, at least we're talking about them and thinking, oh, that's a genuine achievable target.

36:42But we've been there before, haven't we? And then they've won two games and we go, oh, right. So it was the same. So it's an interesting one where you go, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, isn't it? Are they actually going to look like a different team? Yeah. Or is it just going to be more churn, more same results, more 50 pointers away from home, all that? And I think it was quite telling that when we spoke to him, Dan McFarlane referenced, you know, Moana Pacifica, that was a team that was literally created from nothing. like Newcastle weren't that but you look at the job they've got of kind of meshing it all together and that's the scale of the challenge not the best example because Moana Pacifica hardly beat anyone in Super Rugby and now don't exist they've been kicked out so he might need a little bit of a different motivational tool a slightly different analogy let's rattle through the other three teams that you've mentioned in terms of being the ones that are key like they have to improve or key markers of what the table's going to look like of who does better out of Sale, Sarri's and Gloucester.

37:37Should we start with Sarri's? The new era post Mark McCool on paper, strong squad? Yeah, it does look good. I mean, they've lost Tom Willis, but then you add Barbary and you go, okay, that's a lot of carry. Thomas Williams has been one of the best nines in the league. Thomas Williams at nine. George Martin, if he stays fit all season, we know is a test match animal lock. If he plays 15 games a season with Otoji at the other lock, you're thinking, that's good. because then also you think, well, then that means Tizar's on the bench and Yema Christie's on the bench because they've got Barbary and Earl and Gonzalo.

38:11You think, okay, that looks pretty elite. And Brendan Venter's not here today. He's the DOR you mentioned that wasn't here, but he has done some interviews over the summer where he's a bit like, I'm not here to mess about, like we're here to compete. And again, easy for all these people to say all this stuff in pre-season, but I sort of believe that from him because he doesn't need it. he's got his surgery he could be a doctor he last was in the prem 10 years ago or so it has always felt like it's a bit like when michael checker sometimes takes a job you go like he's got plenty of money and doesn't need it so he's only here to do it properly yeah i think here for one reason so i just feel like saracens are underachieving if they're not in the top four and maybe even in a home semi, which then you go, well, then who misses out?

39:01But a fresh Otoji who's had his rest, added to those signings, you think they should be up at the top. Another team that we expected to be right up at the top last season, but certainly weren't, was Sale. Dreadful last year, some big signings, Marchant, Courtney Laws. Yeah, Times columnist. Yeah, exactly. Good for us. Yeah, and then they've also added Thomas France, they've also added Alex Lazowski who I think is going to be one of these underrated canny it's a good signing he's the sort of new Dupree isn't he who just plays every game and can fill in everywhere anyway yeah excellent yeah I'm fascinated by sale because and actually there's one thing here that is possibly a bit of a mediary point but I hope it is more interesting than just that but Alex Anderson was a fascinating study of someone last year I thought because we really like speaking to Alex Anderson because he doesn't have a filter he just is emotional and that's his way and that can be really funny really intense really angry really ebullient he's one of the best DORs to go and chat to for half an hour but I feel like he got too emotional during the season when it was going to pot at the end of it last year and wore it too heavily and it felt like it affected him and he's almost looks like he's in tears after these games when they've lost 85 14 and all that and you think wow that can't be healthy for the environment and i hate using that the environment but you know what i mean and also sort of hate the never too high never too low thing and i'm consistent if we win or we lose the very borswick very van graan way of looking at it because you sort of go like but you must care like come on what's the point in doing it if you don't enjoy yeah yeah and obviously they do but you know what I mean that public persona of just like I'm a dialing tone whatever but I feel like just a bit more stability or a bit more kind of solidity will help them this season and that's where I feel like Courtney is just going to be a massive thing there for them like natural leader 100 kappa he's going to be brilliant on the field and definitely brilliant off it of bringing them together.

41:17I feel like they, again, have got to start making a bit more of an impact because we've said for a few years, haven't we? Sale have made all these semifinals, the final. They're one of those teams where you go like, how have they not won the league? And they really need to start delivering, don't they? Yeah, totally agree. What about Gloucester? Do we want to round it off here? I feel like I put Gloucester in a similar category to Quinn's in that I'll almost believe it when I'll see it because they've had so many seasons of being frustrating. Like on paper, I like what they've done, like Dowie Lake, Jack Morgan, those two really class operators.

41:50And then even some of the signings, which aren't, you know, the blockbuster ones, but are Jean Klein, who's been an international for Ireland and South Africa, like a Joe Joyce, who was a solid operator in the Prem for Bristol when he was with them. I like what they've done on paper, but I mean, good luck predicting how Gloucester are going to get on. Can I give you my Gloucester stat? Yeah, go on then. I'm guessing this is going to be one that Gloucester fans aren't particularly going to enjoy. But I think this gives context to what you're saying is we'll believe it when we see it. So Gloucester have had one playoff appearance in the last 14 years.

42:24Covid? Was that during Covid? 2019, they came third when Cipriani was at 10 and they lost away. Yeah, that's right. Kind of got put away really. So that's going back to 2012. and it's one of those where you go oh I've capped the stat just after the point where they'd last got in but you know what I mean so their finish and obviously the the league has changed in size some of these sound lower but their finishes in that period in the table have been 9th 5th 9th 9th 8th 9th 7th 3rd 7th 11th 5th 10th 9th 5th 8th so they just exist in this kind of middle to bottom and I say it all the time but they're like Bath were before Van Graan came and sorted it out where you go what's wrong with you?

43:15It's all there for you. You've got a captive audience. You've got a fantastic ground like a dialed in support. The Shed is brilliant. One of the best places to watch rugby. There's no football near you really or certainly not at Premier League level or elite level. Not other people aren't getting dragged to do other stuff on a Saturday you've got them you've also got a decent squad often on paper you've signed Lions back road Jack Morgan Welsh captain Dewey Lake like and again maybe you go back to the thing we said about Newcastle where you go is there the nine and ten like they've lost Thomas Williams Dan Robbins come back he's very good at Poe but he's also wrong side of 30 and it's again fascinating how Gloucester play because they did Scrum and Moore for a season and a half then they did swashbuckling attack and then it's sort of like where are they in that can never seem to do one like both things at once and then it's always one or the other one of these clubs that get 15 injuries at Christmas and then they're just done that's it and they can't survive through that winter period and be in a good shape for the back end of it so I think so many people who love rugby would be like how good would it be if Gloucester had a couple of seasons where they're really good but again I still if we're looking at our five I feel like the two that I'm confident will be better are Saracens and Sale and the ones that I believe it when I see it are the others yeah Quinns Gloucester and Newcastle yeah and we haven't covered everyone in this list but we should probably get onto the champions because they're probably sitting at the top going yeah let's hope status quo remains right let's do that so question marks over all those teams that we wanted to focus a lot of our chat on just because we felt like those those are the ones that were uncertain of i suppose the move isn't shaking exactly um let's get on to northampton we'll chat about them at the other side of finn smith the saints and england fly half he stopped by for a little chat well last but certainly not least onto the ruck finn smith how you doing mate good to see you well thanks lads very well uh welcome in we just said welcome into our cloakroom here is we've already described to everyone but it's i've just been in the love of rugby glamorous pink studio and then this is this is where you bring me are the love of rugby going to be there on a friday night that's true franklin's garden that's true maybe they're not as gritty as you lads they're not as gritty that's it how's the summer been finn yeah brilliant thanks um last year was a yeah a long season for me um definitely the most kind of fatigued i felt after a season and um really needed to use this time off to reset and and relax um i think off the back of the lions tour and then all the way through with with england had quite a lot of quite a lot of ups and downs in that jersey and then um obviously managing to get over the line with saints i think yeah it does take its toll and um yeah i feel feel very much recharged and ready to go now you do i was going to ask you that do you feel recharged because you don't get that long off let's be honest it wasn't that long ago that well you i wasn't out there but you guys would have been chatting following that yeah no you do you do feel um you do feel recharged like i just kind of put my put my phone away as much as possible went got out of northampton uh which is which is important and um yeah just really really tries to not think about rugby for a little while and did a good job of that so yeah i feel great feel excited and then sri lanka yeah that's quite a fun thing to do so for people that don't know saints went and played the asia pacific lions in colombo was it yeah but you didn't play rugby you did play cricket yeah i played cricket i don't particularly want to talk about this why because you're you should be a brilliant sports person all around and your cricket was dreadful it was shocking I can't throw I don't know what's happening how can you not throw you've played tennis I honestly have no idea you've like picked up a ball and chucked it back to someone before haven't you I have but I don't know what I think it's the cricket arm or something there must be some special cricket technique they've deliberately made me feel on the boundary so I'd have to chuck the ball back to the key I thought you were taking the mickey because I couldn't believe that you couldn't throw if you went through the live stream of the game and there was about five throws which all looked like that.

47:14Bounce three times before they get to the bowler. But yeah, it was humiliating enough. By the way, can I just jump in here? You're a good bloke, Finn. The fact that you've just taken Will, taken the mick out of your sport team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got the England fly-half in, mate. England fly-half. If it was about rugby, not very good at that. I'd be slightly more defensive, but I don't mind the cricket shout. Okay. Unbelievable sport. Was Sri Lanka fun? Because you guys played a bit of cricket. You went and ate lots of nice food and had a fun game. Was it a cool thing to do that's very different from a normal pre-season?

47:43Oh, it was wicked. It was such a cool week. Like, we spent a lot of time with the new teammates that have obviously been in pre-season. So that was great. Tick that box, like connections and spending time together, which is something that Dallas is massive on. You know, got to see a new country and experience their culture, which I've not done before. And like the rugby side of things, we're training in like 35 degrees heat. Like it was some of the toughest training I've ever done. And there was just some awesome experiences, like Mihaela Jai Wardner, absolute cricket legend. turns out to be a big rugby fan great then takes us out for dinner in his restaurant which was like unbelievable came and sat with us and just chatted and then the next day he says come to my golf club um i was playing with his caddy and stuff but just just a genuine legend so just just stuff like that you'd never do usually so we got to meet a load of the Sri Lankan cricketers and it's actually rugby's big out there like they were they were they were as interested in what we do as what we as we were with them and um yeah just a great week so yeah and the boys put in a good shift against the Asia Pacific Lions so yeah good result in that game as well.

48:47Nice, Alfie mentioned it before that last time I saw you was in the bowels of the stadium in Santiago de la Estera and I remember you saying you've won that game it was quite dramatic obviously that I think we asked you to rate the whole summer out of 10 and you gave it a 7. Do you look at it differently now because with a few months context do you think there's more you wanted to do or the next time you meet up there's a lot more in you like how do you feel about the whole England thing now yeah I'd probably say my my assessment stands on it um in terms of being a seven like I think I think we played some good stuff at times which is which is promising I just think we need to um just be so much more consistent like it is it's funny to me when when when people talk about what 2025 was like and the winning run you what we went on and stuff like that and then you know how tense and pivotal those games felt in the summer only you know six months on but um that's the nature of it and I think if you let your standards slip even a couple of percent um in test rugby teams will just swallow you up and that's what happened to us a tiny bit and I'm actually just proud of the way we sort of rallied back together and found our way but we need to we need to build on that and it's such a boring thing for me to sit here and say it's oh we're building something and something's coming good and there's almost no point me saying it now it's on us to just back it up and yeah this autumn nation is massive for us leading into the sort of start of this World Cup year if that's not where it needs to be I think it'll be worrying signs because I don't think we can keep using the sort of saying of we're on the start of our journey anymore I think we need to be into the teeth of it now and taking on some of the best teams That's refreshing to hear the other thing I'm thinking is have you been watching all this greatest rivalry South Africa and New Zealand we've loved it And I guess you're like, I'm quite glad I'm not playing because I quite need a rest.

50:39But they seem to have this unique chance to test each other against themselves, don't they? The 1v2. Are you looking at what's happening in those matches and going, man, they're taking the game to a different level? Because you're going to be playing the All Blacks in November back at Twickenham, aren't you? Yeah, they look good, don't they? The All Blacks, they look great. New coach, slightly new style. I think they've almost gone back to old a little bit in terms of ball movement. 1 to 15 top skill set and almost no numbers on backs, like the great All Blacks teams used to do when they just see space and play to space.

51:11But yeah, I think I've been watching that and thinking, geez, that's the standard for us with the Springboks and them. But also, we don't want to take on the All Blacks and Springboks in that kind of game. So almost understanding what they're trying to do and how they're looking and maybe taking inspiration from some things. But trying to sort of understand, actually, that what we're hopefully going to try and implement will work just as well against them. But yeah, flip, there's been some good ding-dongs out there. I've been enjoying watching that just as a rugby fan. Finn, can I get us back onto the start of the season?

51:41And I feel like this is probably a particularly media point, but to compare kind of when you guys were the champions last time and then the season that followed. I know you're a different team. You're a different team that won the title first time around. But do you take anything from that? And I know there were injuries that season. You prioritised the Champions Cup and still got to the final of that. but is there anything you take from that that you can bring into this season that almost puts you in a better position to be able to back up the title and defend your title? Yeah, I think after we won the Prem for the first time, the next year compared and tried to be like last season's team probably too much.

52:17We spoke about, oh, last year we did this and it was great. I don't think that works. I don't think you can try and be something else when every other team's evolving and getting better. you can't almost just try and be as good as you were you have to keep setting your sights higher and wanting to improve because you know there's nine other teams doing that so I think that would be the main thing for me this group starting the season this year has won nothing last year we won something and it was a completely different team we had a different set of players, different set of coaches so it needs to almost feel like a fresh start and we're going to go after something again rather than defending as such if that makes sense I guess you look at It's going to be like this with lots of seasons because there's 10 teams.

53:00There's probably five or six who think they've had a poorer season they should have done. But we're just looking at the league before it starts going like, right, Sale looked like they've recruited. Newcastle obviously going to be different again. What are Quinns going to look like? What are Glosses going to look like? And you're probably at the top being like, well, I hope it's the same. Because we won. So that psychology thing of being the hunted again changes it. It must do, right? Yeah, yeah. I think that's the dangerous trap we fell into is like, oh, let's just do what we did last year and we'll be sweet.

53:28Whereas like there's no way you're telling me that the teams you mentioned, Say or Quins, are going to perform at the level they did last year. They're going to be miles better than they were. So it's important for us to add strings to our bow and improve as well. But yeah, I think that's the main thing, just the psychology of like we're not the finish article by any means. If you look at how many of our games last year we won in the last play or we won by less than a few points, I think it would be a high percentage of them. So even though we ended up on top of the table and we won the trophy, we were not that much better than anyone else and we weren't, do you know what I mean?

54:03So, yeah. Well, look, it's exciting. We appreciate your time. Ready to go again? Very much. Long old season though, isn't it? No, I'm ready for it. I'm ready for it. I feel like I've really got my excitement and a sort of love for playing back over the summer. So I'm super excited to be out there. Any banter with Pollock about being a million pound player? Yeah, next time, bud. Next time. Cheers, Finn. Thank you. Cheers, mate. Always good to chat to Finn Smith, Will. Always a good talker, isn't he? Yeah. We actually wrote this a couple of times in the summer, but he felt like the adult in the room through the England summer.

54:37England fans will listen to him saying, if we go back to inconsistency in November, it's no good. Worrying signs was the phrase he used. You think, yeah, I think I agree with that. I like that he demands higher standards publicly than some other people are around that setup. Because I think there were too many people in the summer, particularly, going, everything's fine. We've rattled the spring box for 15 minutes. And you're like, is that the peak? Is that it? So, yeah, all power to Finn Smith. And Saints-wise, interesting, isn't it? And also, good on him for actually taking the, why can't you throw?

55:17yeah it trickled that well yeah that's unbelievable I haven't I don't think I've thrown a cricket ball for seven or eight years so I can't really back myself it's amazing I feel like a serviceable go but if people haven't seen it I don't know whether it survived on his Instagram but in a very self-deprecating way Finn Smith clipped up a few shocking moments of this cricket game they played out in Sri Lanka and all of it was just pathetic throwing and then he batted they didn't get onto his batting I mean gosh he's standing there you know when you know you just someone has never really held a bat before because they're just sort of holding it wrong and the first ball comes down and it takes his middle stump out and you're just like come on but this guy was like county tennis champion well how do you not I was just about to say that I'm still rattled by this a lot of people might not realize but Finn Smith was as well as obviously being a really good rugby player was he was in the same age bracket as Jack Draper and Jacob Fernley and all that and was like in I think Jack Draper was always the number one in that age group but he was competing against those guys at tennis plus a really good rugby player so you would have expected maybe it'd have been a shoo-in for the school cricket team as well.

56:26He's just served an ace or whatever and the ball's bobbling around. You just pick it up and throw it back. Surely that's not that different from picking one up on the boundary and lobbing it in. They probably hit it back though don't they? In tennis. I reckon you don't have to see them throw it. Got a racket haven't you? There you go. Ball boy. Maybe they're picking it up. Yeah. Precisely. Defending champions, I put it to him in the interview, and it's almost one of those things that is an unfair point. And I think we in the media focus on more of like, well, the last time you won the league, you guys struggled to defend it.

56:53And there were reasons for that, as I said to him, with injuries. And they still had a good year because they got to the Champions Cup final. But interested to see how Saints go. They were comfortably the best team, weren't they, in the league last year, really? They led for the vast majority of it. Yes, they've lost George Furbank. But you feel, of all the teams we've spoken about, and it's been the sides that maybe haven't had that sort of stability or consistency, Northampton are at the total opposite end of the scale to that aren't they? But that question is valid though isn't it? Because still for six or seven years no one's backed up winning the league.

57:24And Saints have been the team that have won it twice in that period now. But it's like the old Champions League used to be before Madrid just won three in a row. No one could win it twice in a row. And they did the old European Cup before our older listeners say that the European trophies existed before the Champions League. but it is an interesting thing because the psychology totally changes it's like the England conversation of they want to be underdogs the whole time then they get good they're fancied for a bit and then they can't cope with it it's that across a season isn't it of like you're now the team that everyone's shooting at rather than the team that weren't as good as you should have been the year before and that maybe leads us on to some of the other contenders we've not mentioned yet like Bath they're interesting absolute sucker punch to just make the wrong decision at the big game at the end hoisted by their own petard as we kept saying last season by probably focusing too much on the pick and go and then not doing anything else when it mattered but their squad looks slightly worse on paper doesn't it no detoy no barbary yeah lost it but then they've added a deprea haven't they and they're interesting because they've still got quality across the field and young quality and still got finn russell so that sounds pretty fine doesn't it and also people like ajoma and lawrence who are now out of the england picture and arundel so they're playing all season but where they finish is interesting too isn't it because if you look at the last few seasons they sort of have to be a home semi-final team but there's only two of them and i've already said that i think saris might be one of them and then tigers you go are they going to have a with their sort of money ball back line.

59:04Can that happen again? Is Billy Searle going to have as good a season as he did last year? Orlando Bailey, Tom Whiteley, like all those guys where they massively overperformed. I feel like Leicester have recruited pretty well though. Aaron Wainwright's the big addition, isn't he? But also like Mako Vinopola coming back. I know he's older now, but you've signed experience there. Sclavi as well joining from La Rochelle. I get it. They've lost George Martin, Nicky Smith, Hamro, Liebenberg. But I would back Leicester to be able to replicate what they produced last year. And one sort of damning with fake praise thing that we often say about Tigers is no matter what the sort of mild carnage is going around them, they pretty much end up in a similar place.

59:45Yeah, they perform. They've got something in their bones there that essentially clubs like Quinns have lost. It's that thing of no matter what's going on, there's a consistency of delivery and an expectation of quality and all that. So it's a classic right off Tigers at your peril. But it'd be amazing for Parling to get more out of some of those players who had their best ever seasons last year. Yeah, I'd back Leicester to replicate it again, as I've already said. Round us off, Will, very quickly. We haven't mentioned Exeter, beaten finalists last year and Bristol, who just missed out on top four.

1:00:18Yeah, Bristol are probably in the sale category, aren't they? Probably should have done something more than they have in the last five years. and you often get to the back end of the season and go, have they really got the minerals to deliver it? So they're fascinating on that front. And then almost in the opposite way, you go, Exeter didn't look like they were built to have it and then did. And they built something that almost won them the title out of nowhere. So again, I think the Exeter thing is interesting because they've got new ownership in Bill Foley and the guys that own Bournemouth. So that's interesting to see what changes there.

1:00:54It will be much slower, I think, and less dramatic than the Newcastle thing. So what we've got to end this, Alfie, is where we ended the one we did last year. It was a bit sunnier and we weren't in a cloakroom. It didn't go well for me as well. It didn't go well for either of us, actually. I know what you're about to ask. Predictions. Who's going to win the title? Who did you go for? I said Bath. Got to a semi-final at least. Home semi as well. And they bottled it. And you copied the Prem CEO, Simon Massey-Taylor, who was on the pod around that time too, and said sale. Yeah, terrible. who won, let me just get this up, Alfie.

1:01:25This was how good your prediction was. Sale won five games from 18 last season, and they didn't win any back-to-back games in the whole Prem season. Okay, so this season, the problem is... Whatever team you pick here is in for a shocker. So I'm tempted... Is it too boring to just say Saints again? So that's sort of what I did last year, and I didn't do it, did I? I'm tempted to say Saints, but I think it's boring. so I might go Leicester. Okay. Yeah, I'm going to go Tigers. Tigers, okay. Go on. That's not what I thought you were going to say. What do you think I thought? I thought you were going to say Saracens.

1:02:04Yeah, okay, no, I'll go Tigers. I'll go Tigers. So I'm going to be boring again and be like someone is going to break this curse. It's going to be Saints. We're going to do it again. It's a safe prediction. It is safe, yeah. What's the punchiest prediction that's actually realistic? because Newcastle are not going to win the league. Quinns are not going to win the league. Please clip this up when they do. Like what's the one where you go, that's actually quite a good shout and could happen. Do you think it's possible Bristol win the league? I don't. I just don't know if they've got the cattle.

1:02:37I don't think they've quite got the squad, do they? Yeah. I think Sale are the ones where you sort of go fair wind, momentum, make the core park a horrible place to go. The Currys play 20 games in the season, and not two. Courtney, yeah. Ford has an amazing year. You think Ingredients, Lazowski, Marchant. Okay. But you've gone Saints. I'm going for Leicester. We'll see. In the final, are they playing each other in the final as well? That'd be quite good for the marketers. That'd be a good final. I think once again, you have a much better chance of your prediction coming off than I have of mine.

1:03:10But someone's got to, you know. But if a miss is good as a mile, Alfie, we were both wrong. So it doesn't matter that your team finished seventh or something. Exactly. Let's leave it there, Will, from Twickenham. Hope you enjoyed we had today Finn Baxter Dan McFarland Finn Smith back at it will another Prem season which will roll into the World Cup so here we go yeah here we go what a long season gosh so we're podding now every week there'll be extras in there there'll be more in November there'll be more in the Six Nations possible mini-paws in like July because there'll be no tour and then it's flat out World Cup yeah exactly so it's going to be a good season appreciate all of you who listen if you feel like it then do leave us a review from wherever you get the pod from and this has been the Ruck, the journalist rugby podcast from the Times and the Sunday Times, our Prem Rugby season preview.

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