Should Van Rensburg be in the England squad?

0:00Will Kelleher: Business is booming, but you know what really helped? Zero. The accounting platform for small businesses. I used to think unpaid bills were just part of it. Ugh. But batch payments? Wow. Automated accounts payable? Even better. All in one place? That's a big one. And I can keep track from my phone while I get the job done. No bills in sight. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply. Today's episode of The Ruck is brought to you by Allianz. They've been part of the rugby family for over 13 years now, backing the game at every level from the muddy grassroots pitches to the biggest stages in the sport.

0:44Will Kelleher: And their partnership with the home of England rugby, Allianz Stadium, isn't just about putting a name on the building. It's about backing the future of the game and the generations still to come. We're proud to have them on board. Let's get into it.

1:13Will Kelleher: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times busy show on the way, the end of the Women's Six Nations. The Prem run-in is hotting up and we've got the Champions Cup final to look ahead to as well. I'm Alfie Reynolds. Alongside me in studio today is Will Kelleher. Hello. And Charlie Morgan. Hello, pal. How are we doing, boys? Lots to get into on the show today. Huge. And this is our smartest pod ever, I would say. I'm very much... But no one can see us. We're not on video today. It's not videoed, and I am very much letting the side down as well in terms of those stakes.

1:43Will Kelleher: Can you explain why? Yes. So today it is the annual...

1:46Alfie Reynolds: The annual Rugby Union Writers Club lunch. And listen to this. We have the Pat Marshall Trophy with us. Which is... It's more impressive than it sounds.

1:57Will Kelleher: Explain for people that don't know what the Pat Marshall is.

1:59Alfie Reynolds: Every year, the Rugby Writers Club membership vote for their personality of the year can kind of be anyone. And we've been awarding it since 1976. So it's one of the longest running prizes of its type. And the first award went to Mervyn Davis, the great Lions and Welsh number eight. And we've been doing it every year since. And so there will be a new winner this afternoon. The holder is Louis Bielbere. The holder is Louis Bielbere, who we'll get on to later in the pod, I'm sure. but there's been some greats. Taking you slightly behind the curtain, we have the names on the trophy here and there are a few typos.

2:38Alfie Reynolds: Martin Johnson has actually won it twice but he's on there three times. So whoever was doing the engraving in the early noughties made a couple of mistakes. But there's some greats on there. Jonah Lomu, Shane Williams, Jason Robinson, Gareth Thomas, who else? Pat Lamb, a couple of coaches. Nick Farr-Jones, Ian McGeek and David Campesi. There's loads on there. So we'll get a new one this afternoon.

2:57Will Kelleher: OK, and it's got a few cuts and scrapes and it's got all part of the history, I suppose, is what you could say. It's 50 years old, you know, poor old lads.

3:05Charlie Morgan: It's in very good, Nick.

3:06Alfie Reynolds: To be well polished by Dave Rogers, the Getty Images photographer.

3:10Will Kelleher: What a legend. OK, good stuff. So that's later on today that that's going to be announced. In terms of later on in the pod, Will's had a chat with the Bordeaux-Begler attack coach, Noel McNamara. He'll be looking ahead to the Champions Cup final Bordeaux against Leinster this coming weekend. As I say, we'll get on to the Prem. We will get on to an absolute demolition on Friday night with Bristol falling to defeat to Northampton. Women's Six Nations as well. But today, lads, Steve Borthwick has named a training squad ahead of the matches coming up this summer in South Africa, Fiji in Liverpool and then away to Argentina.

3:43Will Kelleher: Headline of this, I think, is going to be Benhard Jansi van Rensburg. The Bristol centre is qualified. He's in the England squad.

3:51Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, for the first time. And it was interesting because originally we all thought that he qualified in November. That was always the way we've been writing this when it became apparent that England were looking at him and batting hard to get some regulations changed, which we can get onto, to get him involved. But there has been some new clarification quite recently that he actually qualifies from July the 8th.

4:16Charlie Morgan: he's not available for the Springboks game he's available for England's second two tests of the Nations Championship but he can also play in the uncapped game against France France 15 before all of that kicks off so he's been brought in at the earliest possible opportunity clearly because in this camp they're going to be it seems like a bit of an alignment camp to look ahead to these internationals get some tactical foundations down and that just shows how much he's valued and coveted really because he's in as quickly as they could possibly get him in.

4:51Will Kelleher: It's funny this though, isn't it? Because when his name first started circling as possibly an option for England quite a few years ago, at the time I thought, great, England need inside centre options. But actually we get to this point now where he's been called up to the squad and you look at a Max Ajomo or a Seb Atkinson, a Litchfield. There are quite a lot of other options here. You know, Dingwall, who we've seen part of the England squad. There are other options available to Steve Borthwick. And I think there's something interesting for me about this call-up that I look at the RFU, I look at one of the biggest, richest unions in the world with some of the deepest playing resources and you're having to rely upon a guy coming across, having been born and raised in South Africa, come across and play a number of years in the English system and then immediately fast track him into the training squad.

5:38Will Kelleher: We'll see how much he plays this summer. There's something about that for me that doesn't quite add up. He's a great player, but do you know what I mean?

5:45Charlie Morgan: Absolutely. There are two sides of the coin here. I think, first of all, international rugby is survival of the fittest. And it should be a meritocracy. And if you're playing well, you should deserve your shot. No, I don't think anybody could have watched Jancy van Rensburg over the last, however long he's been at Bristol, and not think that he is being one of the premier centres. I actually prefer him at 13 with a ball playing, 12 inside of him. It would be really interesting to see how that shakes out. But the point you're making is it's in our faces straight away with this squad because there is no Oli Lawrence.

6:18Charlie Morgan: There is no Max Ojoimo. That will not sit well with people. And it is totally fair enough, I think, to feel a little bit uneasy about that. But it's how quickly they brought him in to me that just shows that clearly they've had their eye on him for a long time. and as Will hinted at that then it has seemed like the RFU have lobbied for these legislative changes so that he can be available and they haven't wasted time.

6:48Will Kelleher: Yeah, so the admin on that, Will, was Yancy van Remsburg played 20 minutes for the South African under-20s years ago and World Rugby were arguing that that meant he had been captured by South Africa so he couldn't play for England and the RFU have essentially argued the case that that shouldn't count.

7:04Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, so going back to him qualifying in early July the clarification on that is because that's when his London Irish contract started five years ago 2021 and by the World Rugby Regs at the moment if you do five years residency you qualify for a new nation but the complication with Van Rensburg is that he was captured by South Africa because at the time that he played for the 20s the baby box in 2016 that was their second nominated national team which was a capturing side and he only played 20 minutes against Argentina I've interviewed him about it a season a half ago and he explained it in quite a lot of detail but essentially he was in and out of that squad he wasn't a full part of it really and he basically played 20 minutes as cover in one of the pool games and that was it that doesn't matter per the regs if he plays three seconds one second that's enough to be captured however the rules around that tournament the junior world cup changed all the time around that period almost every season so just before him duane van der merver and pia schoeman played for the baby box too in a team with like thomas de toy and others they had an amazing side then and they weren't captured and have gone on to become scotland internationals and british and irish lions duane two tours so the interesting thing there is basically loads of other teams have done this.

8:33Alfie Reynolds: Scotland have done it a lot. Ireland have done it a lot. You could possibly say that England have as well because I mean look at guys like the Vuna Polars. Different thing completely. They haven't played for another like 20s set up or anything but they didn't have any familial links to the UK. They just happened to be brought here when they were young. Did come through the English academy system though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I think that's quite an important distinction. And schools and everything else. Yeah, absolutely. But there would be people in other countries around the world who say like England are not, they have definitely taken part in this whole project player thing over the years.

9:10Alfie Reynolds: But the other bit is, as you rightly say, Alfie, England have got one of the deepest playing pools in the world. They've got a league with 10 teams. And where he might have looked like someone who's out on his own as one of the decent centres in the Prem a season and a half ago, two seasons ago, there's now loads of 12s around and 13s. And I would say if you're not even just dyed-in-the-wool English, if you're just someone who sort of respects the Prem and the English player pathway, you'd kind of go, is it right that, and this is going to make it really reductive, but basically we can't be bothered to work hard enough to promote our own, in inverted commas, whatever that means, because it's a very globalized world, we know that.

9:55Alfie Reynolds: So we're just going to get a guy that can't get in the Springboks team to play 12 or 13 for us. And now the rules are there. The rules are there to be broken. They have been, let's say, bent for this. And it will stick in the craw with a lot of people, I'm sure.

10:12Will Kelleher: For me, it's a situation where I can understand it from the player's point of view in that he's moved overseas, he's playing in England, doesn't look like Razzie Rasmussen, the Springboks are interested.

10:20Alfie Reynolds: Imagine if Vratti picked him next week. He just goes, I think we'll call him up.

10:24Will Kelleher: That'd be amazing. But from his point of view, if you're thinking, well, fair enough, if England want you and that progresses your career, you get to play international rugby, there's financial benefits that come along with that. And even as you say, Charlie, from Steve Borthwick's point of view, to a degree, I think people will be slightly less sympathetic with this. But you say, you are tasked with trying to win the World Cup or trying to win matches for England. If you think the best way of doing that is picking this guy, then you have to pick him. But what it always seems to come back to, for me, actually, with this sort of thing is the eligibility rules and criteria and the five-year residency and all that sort of stuff that I still think rugby as a sport hasn't quite got on top of what the perfect set of rules is for a situation like this.

11:02Will Kelleher: But we'll see if he plays.

11:04Alfie Reynolds: It's changed. It was only three years, wasn't it? Yeah. Not that long ago. But it's going to be absolutely fascinating how he integrates into that squad. I don't think it's going to be like an internal squad problem. But what if you're Max Injomo today? the one time he's played for England well he's played two times hasn't he but the one time he's played at Twickenham man of the match played brilliantly against Argentina and you can't get a look in you're playing for the best club team in the country who won the treble last year I know he's been injured but he's back now and you're going my life and soul has been devoted to trying to play for England and a guy who can't get in the spring box is being picked against me that's tough

11:42Charlie Morgan: you would think that Borthwick would have factored that It's almost a reputational gamble, I would say, making this pick. And that's probably unfair on the player himself. But he's going to have to be ready for a reaction that's going to come of this because it just is going to be difficult for some fans to square, I would say.

12:04Will Kelleher: It's an interesting thing when you look at the centres in Borthwick's tenure as well that he put so much time into the Henry Slade-Olly Lawrence combination to the point where they became England's most capped centres. Was it 10 tests in a row or something maybe? Wasn't it like Tyndall Greenwood? He put a lot of time in that and now Oli Lawrence isn't part of the squad. Henry Slade is there but he's been very in and out hasn't he?

12:24Alfie Reynolds: That's a drop off as well isn't it?

12:26Will Kelleher: I mean he was poor in the Six Nations but that's a big play I'd say as well. He's had some big injuries as well. What else stands out if we move away from Van Rensburg? Noah Kallory is there. Very cool.

12:36Alfie Reynolds: Deserved. And you suddenly look at the England wing options. So Arundel's been dropped at the moment. and this squad might change before we actually get on a plane to Joburg in July.

12:48Will Kelleher: Yeah, it's a training squad, isn't it, for a few days?

12:50Alfie Reynolds: But Adam Radwan, really cool, really well-deserved. He should have been in the Six Nations squad, but got annoyingly injured just before they had a shoulder problem. He was really, really good again on Sunday, wasn't he, Charlie, in that sale game?

13:02Charlie Morgan: Yeah, I think he's a great example of somebody that's really rounded out their game. If people have watched Leicester throughout the whole season will have seen breakdown turnovers. he threw a pass to Ali Hassel Collins for one of the tries against Sale yesterday that you genuinely thought, you genuinely wondered who it was and thought that, well, it can't be Adam Rabban, he hasn't got that in his locker. And it's great to see that rewarded. It's great. I think they're really, to me, that looks like they're prioritising sort of out-and-out speed, athleticism on the wings and maybe keeping Freeman at 13.

13:38Charlie Morgan: So, yeah, and I think that's the way to go this summer, I really do. and for the rest of this World Cup cycle.

13:43Will Kelleher: Now, Mara Toje is a part of this training squad, but people may have seen news towards the back end of last week that there's a suggestion England might not take him this summer or might not play him this summer for the captain. What do we know here?

13:57Alfie Reynolds: So we're chatting to Steve Borswick about this tomorrow, so we'll get a bit more information, but it seems like they're at least considering not playing him in all three of the tests, whether that's playing against the box and then not Fiji and then not Argentina. Let's see. But it opens a fascinating conversation because this is a guy who clearly was off the pace, tired and affected emotionally, let's say, totally understandable by losing his mother around Christmas for that Six Nations. He's also separately been in really good form for Saracens. Now they're rattling up the league, but has had a decade of basically the heaviest workload imaginable.

14:39Alfie Reynolds: all these lines towards everything else so it's a balance there where you go what does this say about where Steve Borthwick is and how he's feeling because if his job was on the line which we now know it isn't he's not resting his captain is he and what does it say about the PGP the partnership between the clubs and the country that is that now a bit more balanced if players

14:59Charlie Morgan: do genuinely miss test matches and we understand that that call will be dependent on who else is available which is pretty sensible but you've had in recent weeks and this week you've had Alex Coles return from injury you've had George Martin come back from injury and look excellent Arthur Clarke has looked good for Gloucester in recent weeks too and so I don't think anybody really would argue with the concept of a guy who's played a lot of rugby stepping down being rested especially if that gives England a chance to look at another captain look at tweaking their leadership group which we kind of understood was an outcome of this review was that they were going to maybe look at changing things there and also just just simply look at other lock configurations because Maratoji has been a been a mainstay of

15:49Will Kelleher: them do we think there is a possibility then that Maratoji won't be the England captain come the

15:54Alfie Reynolds: World Cup oh well it seemed like all the guidance after the the famous review was that there isn't going to be a change in captain but there might be some tweaks of the leadership group as Charlie said I would be surprised but we've seen captains change just before the World Cup before like Hartley to Farrell was one in the Eddie era wasn't it I don't know I don't know I just wondered with because I what I would say which is bottling answering the question properly is that great opportunity for Oli Chesson like we mentioned him last week you put it in your matchup after the East Midlands Derby that he just has grown into this real leader and he seems to be an emotional heartbeat of Tigers and definitely could be for England as well and this is a good opportunity isn't it to say go on then Chess and lead the team against Fiji let's say or even Argentina as well

16:47Charlie Morgan: he's not an official vice captain and that why that's significant is because there's loads of they always pick three he he has been sort of lent upon for line-out strategy by Steve Borthwick You're always in those captain's runs that we get to see and give us very little. There's occasionally sort of you see Steve Borthwick, Marato Gionolicheson breaking off and sort of walking around the pitch and just talking about, I think, clearly talking about sort of what line outs, what kind of their line out menu is going to look like. But it would be, yeah, it would be a leap to go, I guess, straight from he's clearly a senior figure in the leadership group.

17:23Charlie Morgan: But, yeah, to have that official title and to captain the side again would be a big kind of move.

17:28Will Kelleher: Let's leave the England stuff there. If you've got views on the England squad, then send your questions to the email address, the ruckatthetimes.co.uk. The Bordeaux attack coach, Noel McNamara, coming up in just a moment. Before, though, Will, we get on to the Champions Cup final and Bordeaux-Leinster this weekend, could the South African sides be pulling out of the Champions Cup? I wanted to fit this little bit of news in that you were writing about last. There's a lot going on in this part, I'll be honest to all of you. This was a story last week. You've been writing about this. Why is this a possibility?

18:00Will Kelleher: Why are the South African sides looking at the possibility of this?

18:03Alfie Reynolds: So this came out of the South African Rugby Union's kind of annual meeting last week in Cape Town where Mark Alexander, the president, suggested... He didn't name the Champions Cup, but he suggested that they're going to review what competitions they're involved in, which ones they'll keep and which ones they'll drop, was basically the way he phrased it. to be fair it wasn't very difficult to find out that he is talking about the Champions Cup they are thinking about dropping out of the Champions Cup and you get varying reactions to that and I would say it's not unfair to say that the European reaction is pretty celebratory like that the thought was always that if the South Africans were going to leave Europe in averted comments it would have to be the Europeans that force them out but as I wrote in a piece on on Friday if the South Africans are defenestrating themselves I think everyone's going to help them out the window up in Europe because of all the things that it would solve to get them out but then you also talk to some South Africans who absolutely gobsmacked was the phrase that was used to me that they would consider doing this because on a competition level it's good for them like it's way better for them than super rugby ever was they think it helps them prepare for world cups gives them good sight of the Irish teams the wish they play in the URC anyway but the French guys as well and the English and the style of rugby really suits them.

19:23Alfie Reynolds: There's coaches and players around the franchises that are really getting the competition now and really love it. It seems like it's finally sort of catching the fans a bit and on the financial side, it's becoming beneficial for South Africa because they're shareholders in the URC and through the URC, they now start getting dividends. So if you were to pull out of that and just play an expanded curry cup instead, that's going to reduce your financial takings and your competitiveness in one fell swoop. It would probably suit Razzie Erasmus because the crux of all of this is player welfare and the fact that the box players are basically Northern Hemisphere club players and Southern Hemisphere test players and so therefore never rest.

20:04Alfie Reynolds: There's also been reports over the weekend that the clubs themselves, including I think the Stormers CEO said, we definitely want to remain part of this.

20:12Will Kelleher: Well, John Dobson loves it, doesn't he?

20:13Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, he's been on our pod a lot, hasn't he? And been dismayed at the fact that he's brought bad teams up here and he's been forced to, he thinks, by the logistics and the schedule and having to rest players and then gets thrashed.

20:24Will Kelleher: But on that point, if this was a discussion about the URC, it would be totally different. I think it's without question South African clubs' involvement in the URC has made that competition far stronger, far deeper, far more interesting. But does this kind of work for all parties with the Champions Cup?

20:39Alfie Reynolds: I don't know if it works for all parties because I'm not sure it definitely suits South Africa. I think they think it does, but I'm not sure it would in reality because if they drift off and isolate themselves, that's surely going to reduce the quality of their players over the next decade, isn't it? But they've still got the URC though, don't they? But what's their connection between Test Rugby and Club Rugby?

21:02Will Kelleher: How much would you say the box at the moment is underpinned by the fact that they're playing in the Champions Cup? I'd say not at all. Not much, yeah. Because their teams typically aren't going that deep in it. They're fielding weaker teams for knockout games that they have a week to travel up to Europe for.

21:14Alfie Reynolds: maybe when that generation of the double World Cup winners is finally gone it's who's replacing who's replacing Exabeth and all that isn't it and where are they getting their best rugby but basically everyone else is celebrating wildly at this and I think there are executives up here who are sensible and going the Champions Cup's problems aren't all South Africa no like English teams send rotated sides English teams have been bad in it French teams have been bad in it there's been plenty of Italian teams and others who've been dreadful stank the place out over the decades right so this is not a South African problem however if you're trying to redesign the Champions Cup to make it more elite more jeopardy everything else and 16 teams the easiest logistical change is not flying 13 ,000 kilometers to South Africa on a round trip it skews the pool we've gone through this so many times but it skews the pool stage because the urc teams don't play against south africans because they're in the same league so you never get like leinster being thrown to cape town and back again in a week but you do let's say if you're to lose or if you're harlequins or someone else it also skews because you get someone like quins thrashing stormers thirds and then qualifying for the last 16 on the back of one or two wins i know they beat larachelle this year but that has happened also you have the silliness that we've had in a few seasons where the last 16 and quarterfinals are back to back and someone has to go to South Africa and then come back again.

22:40Alfie Reynolds: La Rochelle was an example of that a couple of seasons ago. So in so many ways, it totally messes up the best club competition in the world. Brackets should be. So there are a lot of people who are going, thank the Lord, they're considering to go.

22:57Will Kelleher: So as always, it seems like a totally straightforward situation. Let's see how it pans out, but no doubt it will develop and we will keep you across it in the paper online and on the pod as well. Let's turn our attention to matters on the pitch, though, this weekend, the Champions Cup final. And Will has had a chat with the Bordeaux attack coach, Noel McNamara. Just a quick breather to tell you about today's sponsor, Allianz, a partner that's all about opening rugby up to more people. Their support goes way beyond Allianz Stadium. Through the Allianz Future Fund, they've already put over£100 ,000 straight into community clubs across the UK, helping fund projects that bring new people into the game.

23:38Will Kelleher: And with the Allianz Kickstart programme now reaching 5 ,000 schools, thousands of kids are getting their first taste of rugby, some for the very first time. If your local club could do with a bit of a lift, check out the link in the show notes and nominate them for an Allianz Future Fund grant.

23:58Charlie Morgan: Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer. They tune in every week, they trust the host, and that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience. The problem is, you just haven't been introduced yet. We're Acast, where that introduction happens. As the world's largest podcast marketplace, we let you browse shows, see who's listening, and book host-read sponsorships or run your own ads all from one platform. Transparent pricing, real-time data, complete control. Start advertising on podcasts by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

24:41Alfie Reynolds: Okay, Noel, great to have you on the Ruck. Thanks so much for joining us in such a big week as the Champions Cup final approaches. I'm sure it's sometimes a stressful and difficult job, but are there times where you think you've got the best job in the world, being the Bordeaux attack coach? Yeah, absolutely. I'm not sure about the stress or the pressure of it. I think certainly in weeks like this, it's purely a privilege. It's a massive challenge that we have, but one that we're really looking forward to. It's a long season when you think about where it started off with that first away trip against the Bulls.

25:17And yeah, we were staring down the barrel of a pretty heavy halftime deficit, to be honest about it, in that game. So the final in Bilbo seemed like a long, long way away when we were in the changing room at halftime. but yeah, credit to the boys and yeah, we're just really, really excited about the challenge. You know, Leinster, obviously a team with incredible history in this competition that I know only too well but yeah, very looking forward to it.

25:41Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, I was thinking before like when kids are young, they go like when I grow up, I want to be like a chocolate taster. I want to, every day is fun. Like, is that a bit like the rugby version of that when you've got Luku, Jalibert, Murphana, Penno, Bielberet, Riassi, all the guys at your disposal You're going, I'm like a kid in a sweet shop here with what I could do with these guys. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's I think probably the best description of it is exactly that. It's fun. We try to find the balance between being funny and fun. Fun is really important, but it can't go too far the other way.

26:17I like to think that it's challenging as well, both, you know, both for me and for the players. I think we challenge each other. And I think that's probably the most important balance to strike, just to ensure that it remains fun, particularly, you know, with the length of the season. You talk about the finals, but, you know, the finals really already alluded to it a little bit. The finals are a distant memory in December, in November. But if you don't do the job there, then you never get to surf the big wave. So it's about really just trying to be as consistent as you possibly can, trying to ensure that the environment that we create is enjoyable.

26:52it's fun we work hard we never lose sight of of uh keeping the main thing the main thing and it it has to be challenging it it's um we talk a lot about about success being a moving target for for us and and uh you know just because you were successful last year or last week or or uh or yesterday doesn't uh yeah it doesn't give you any guarantees for for what's going to come in the future so i think that's probably uh yeah that's probably how i could could sum it up to be honest.

27:20Alfie Reynolds: Yeah. So give me some examples. How would you inject the fun through the season or what have you done in the last few weeks that's away from the rugby that is a bit of more of a laugh? Yeah, I suppose just in terms of how we go about it, it is a little bit different. I think you're constantly evolving. You're constantly trying to find better ways of doing it. You're trying to find ways of connecting with the players, of messages that will resonate while still understanding that what's important remains important, you know, and that is the effort, the physical side of the game, our ability to connect on the pitch, our ability to connect off the pitch.

28:00And, you know, what does that look like week to week? I guess at times it can be informal. You know, there's less maybe long meetings, which might have been a feature much earlier in my career. There's, you know, at times there's videos and little bits and pieces, other sports, videos of soccer, videos of basketball, videos of NRL where you're trying to create a connection or create a message or build on our principles. It's at times, I think we can be a little bit strict and this is what a catch pass looks like. You've got to catch it early, you've got to stay square. And then you get Salasio Reyesi that is based in basketball and he catches the ball, he's looking one way and he draws a drop shot on the other side and you know I think it's trying to not maybe box the players off too much and and allow that freedom while still understanding that there is a big responsibility to the collective I think I've said before you know it's not about teaching or coaching Damien Pano how to pass or Salasi Reassi or Matthew Jellybear but it's it's about coaching them how to play together and and how to get the most out of uh out of out of the collective yeah that's

29:08Alfie Reynolds: fascinating because I think that I was privileged enough to be at your semi-final against Bath and also your game against Northampton in the pool stages and when we sort of drop in and watch your team having watched a lot of Prem it just looks so different the way that the team attack to our kind of I don't know anglo-centric eyes maybe and so that ability to strike from distance that kind of firing up on the counter-attack stuff that we've loved watching through the season How do you kind of ingrain that in the players, that sort of bravery to go? You might use different phrases, but we would say that looks quite bold, aggressive, big decision-making, sometimes going from your own line, but it's all manipulation of space, I guess.

29:52Yeah, it's a fascinating concept to me that, you know, you should play the game based on lines on the pitch. It doesn't make any sense. You play the game based on space and opportunities. And I think that's how we train. It's not about lines on the pitch. That's not to say that if it's not on, you don't have to try and force it. But if it's on, you have to take it. And I think that's how we train. It's certainly messy at times. It can be very, very untidy. There can be lots of balls involved. It could be coming from all kinds of different angles and everything else. But that's fundamentally, I suppose, how we would see the game.

30:32It's not based on where you are on the pitch. It's based on the opportunities and also the strengths that we have. the quality that we have, you know, and we've already mentioned some of them. But, you know, you had Louis Bielbarri and Damien Penault. And unfortunately, one of them who won't be playing this weekend, Nicolas Di Portera, who has been fantastic as well. So it's just it's about a group that are really clear in the principles that we want to play towards, aren't afraid of mistakes. I think sometimes we probably have maybe, you know, and again, And it's potentially that Anglo-Saxon view that if you make a mistake, it's really, really serious and everything else.

31:10But in many ways, that fear of mistakes is almost more serious than anything else. So, you know, that's what coaches are there for. And I probably learned that the hard way in New Zealand. I was the defence coach. I coached with an attack coach called Dan Hallangahu and Tom Coventry. I always be going crazy with Dan. It's like, Dan, we gave away an intercept. You're killing me, man. It's absolutely catastrophic. but it's understanding I guess and that's what I mean sometimes your experience in other areas and at other times allows you to develop and grow and get better

31:45Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, we'll definitely get onto your Lentz days in a second but I'd love to dwell on I mean there's so many of them but we don't have time to go through your whole team so maybe let's pick out two or three of your backs who everyone's loving watching this season give us some insight into Biel Barre because we watch him and every time we see him play, he scores a try. And it's sort of this inevitability that he's going to score and they're all different. Sometimes he doesn't beat any defenders because he's got so much pace. Sometimes he beats 10. He's on the end of things. I'm looking at the stats, 30 tries in 29 games for club and country this season and he's still only 22.

32:21Alfie Reynolds: Do you watch him and go, man, this guy is more special than I've seen in a lot of players? Yeah, he's certainly special. There's no doubt about that. I think sometimes he can be reduced a little bit to just being really, really quick I've coached players that were quicker than Louis, they weren't like Louis I can tell you that I think it's just a combination of what he has it's the timing it's the ability to see things quicker when we talk about speed speed of thought and speed of action and he has both and it's an incredible mix to be honest I've seen guys that haven't you know, got really good pace, but have got really, really good speed of thought.

33:04And they see the picture and they understand the picture really, really quickly. He has both. So that makes him really special. He's also an incredibly humble, humble, normal guy, you know, which kind of adds to the whole thing as well, to be honest with you. He's got a good, good understanding of the game. He's somebody who, you know, we've got, as I mentioned before, it's a challenging environment for both. So, you know, the players will challenge as well. He's got ideas on the game. He'll come with ideas. Maybe we could try this, maybe we could do that. And that's what's really exciting, I think, about the environment that we have here at UBB.

33:36It's exactly that. So, yeah, special guy, exciting to see where he can go and where he can get to. He spent a lot of his younger days at 10. I think that really helps. I would have a really clear view on the development of young players and the importance of playing in different positions and experiencing different things. and I think he has really benefited from that and obviously played a good bit at full-back as well and now the game has evolved and wingers obviously have a very different role. A lot of touches on the ball, they come in in a lot of different places around the pitch and that's something that we've really encouraged with him as well.

34:15Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, and then maybe let's take your 9 and 10 together, not that they play the same way but just because they're such an amazing axis for you. I was watching the game in Bordeaux the Bath semi-final and just some of the way that Mathieu Jalibar carries towards the line with such aggression you don't really see that these days in from tens quite a lot of them are facilitators or manipulating people into space but he was running directly at the line quite a lot like firstly him and then king of the Basque region who's going home I guess Lucou who seems to be on his throne in Bordeaux like the fans just absolutely adore him don't they?

34:57I think the first one probably lines up a little bit with what we spoke about already Matthew attacks the space facilitating if that's what you do and you just serve shapes then the defence will concentrate on the shapes and then there will be space elsewhere I think that's what he does really really well so I think it is as simple as that But I think at times as well, we reduce Matthew to being very, very talented. Matthew's level of preparation is extraordinary. He's understanding of the game, the work that he does. You'll get messages at all times of the day and night. After the game, he'll go home, he'll review the game.

35:33The preparation he does beforehand, the leadership, the maturity that he has taken on over the course of the last two, three seasons has been absolutely remarkable. and I think today for me he has developed into probably the best 10 in the world I think his defence has really come on an awful lot, the physical side has come on an awful lot, he breaks tackles, he offloads the ball while still being able to at times, to be honest about it the bat game, I think he just allowed the team to play there probably was no real moments individual moments from him where we probably have seen in some of the other games but he just facilitated the team and led them really, really well.

36:16So I think, you know, with Max, I think the phrase that I've used often is he's the heartbeat of the team. But the first thing about Max is just the human being. He is just an incredible person. I've seen lots of captains. I've been lucky enough to experience Sia Khaleesi, who is an incredibly special captain, you know, a remarkable person. But Max is in exactly the same category. the team would do anything for him. The people of Bordeaux are exactly the same. I think he's emblematic of the team and is probably best personified on defence. I don't know how many nines there are in the world to make, generally speaking, somewhere between 15 and 20 tackles.

36:58You know, Brack Rowe would be proud of that performance, but he will do that, whilst also having, you know, the kicking game, the brains, the ability just to get us motoring. and yeah, he's just a very, very special guy and I think it was a motivation for the team. You know, Bilbo, he's Basque. He's proudly Basque. There are games where I love them because it probably identifies a little bit with the Irish culture, but you know, Max's family and friends will come in and play music in the changing room, the Basque music, and it's amazing. Sometimes you can take it for granted. We mentioned Louis already.

37:32You're 22 years of age. You've won two Six Nations. You've won the Champions Cup. you score 30 tries a season you think it's going to be always like this but that's not the reality that's not the reality it's so important to try and take advantage of these opportunities when you have them and really to maximise them for everything that you can

37:50Alfie Reynolds: And just last one on Leucou do you feel sorry for him that he was sort of born in the DuPont era? Like all these French scrum halves who are exceptional like you've got Serran, LeGarrec plenty others Leucou obviously are playing at the same time as one of the greatest players of all time and you always kind of contextualise against DuPont in this era, whether you like it or not. Is that tough sometimes or do you just have to kind of plough your own path, I suppose? No, not at all. I think Max Leucou is the player he is because of that competition and everything else. There are, I don't know how many players in the history of rugby that would give their left arm for the career that Max Leucou has had.

38:37and when you look at where he is now I do think that is as a consequence of him the person first and foremost but also because of the competition and I think it's exactly the same I think sometimes we're far too quick and it's the same with Mathieu and Roman we're far too quick to reduce things to a simple contest between two or three or four players I think Max is who he is because of the person but also because of the competition and he's been driven all the way by Anton Dupont. Imagine being able to say that actually, well, he went toe-to-toe to him and he's beaten him. He's won games. He's won trophies that Anton would have loved to win.

39:19He's done it with the French team. I think there was a few years ago when Max first got his opportunity with France. Anton was injured. It was against Ireland. Both he and Mathieu struggled in that game in Marseille where Ireland won comfortably. and I think that's a real credit to their character. That's a real credit to who they are and their quality of players. They took it, they came back, they worked hard. At times they weren't selected. At times other people were selected ahead of them. But to me, that's the symbol of great players. Great players want competition. They want to be tested to the absolute maximum.

39:55They don't want the easy route.

40:00I wouldn't entertain that at all and I've no doubt that Max wouldn't either.

40:03Alfie Reynolds: yeah yeah and like you can't escape anyone's attention having listened to you for last 15-20 minutes that you're the Irishman in the French camp playing against Leinster so what dynamic does that add because you spent so long there working in the 20s academy I was reading a profile that Peter O 'Reilly our colleague did the other day and he wrote that I think you've only not coached four of the current Leinster squad like the Irish guys obviously I imagine that gives you a huge amount of insight and respect for the the system and the the way they operate over there yeah 100 % yeah I'm I had a fantastic time in Leinster I'm I'm yeah forever grateful for the opportunities that that I had and the opportunities that I had to coach the teams that I did it was a brilliant a brilliant time in in in my life and and I have nothing but but positive memories of it but it's in the past and today the only goal, the only objective is to win on Saturday with Bordeaux.

41:08Yes, I know the players but there's only so much that that's going to help. It doesn't really help to know that Caelan Doris scored two tries against Ulster schools in Banbridge in 2018. Still hurts. Yeah, exactly. There's loads of moments that we shared in the past that we will always have together. But as I said, it is very much in the past, to be honest about it. To me, it's not going to have any impact on the game on Saturday. I think the club deserve a huge amount of crowd. I find some of the criticism pretty remarkable. at times, you know, when you consider the consistency that they've shown.

41:53And yes, it's also fair to say that they've got brilliant players. But, you know, the consistency that they've shown over the last number of years, because it's not easy. It's not easy to, you know, to go back year on year and win those big games. We know how difficult it is to, you know, to get to the latter stages of the Champions Cup. It's a huge amount of respect for the club, for the people involved in the club. there's still people there that I would be in regular contact with and everything else. But the reality is it's about preparing Bordeaux. It's about, with huge respect for their defence and trying to look at how are we going to create opportunities, how are we going to impose ourselves and ultimately how are we going to win on Saturday.

42:38Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, you said good players at Leinster, obviously, but good coaches too. I mean everyone's fascinated about again you probably say it's fairly reductive to say it's your attack versus Jack Nienaar's defence but it characterises the way they play these days like that seems a really fun challenge for you to see how you can pick it off and get round it and they can go chasing after you as well Yeah 100 % I would strongly agree with your first comment as well it is reductive it's very much the reality of any team is you can't attack without a good defence. So, you know, you can't attack without a good set-piece.

43:16And it's exactly the same on a defence. You can't defend well unless you have a really good set-piece. You can't defend well unless your contact area is really strong. And you can't defend well unless your attack gives you a little bit of respite as well. So it is very much a collective thing. There's no question that Leinster today are slightly different from the Leinster when I was there. And they are a little bit more, I guess, an image of that. a really strong defence, really, really aggressive around the contact area at times on the limit. And, you know, I think that's something that is going to be important as well, is the influence of the referee and Carl Dixon and how he manages that area.

43:56You know, I think the discipline piece will be interesting. And, you know, if a team does go down to 14, how, you know, if it's Leinster, how we navigate that period. I thought they did it really, really well against Toulon, albeit I think Toulon would be disappointed when they were attacking against 13 players to just have conceded points, in fact. So I think that's something that we would feel is a strong point for us. So that certainly would be important. But overall, I think it's two good teams. It's two teams that have earned the right to dispute the final. and ultimately it will be decided on a beautiful surface, in a beautiful stadium, in a beautiful part of the world on Saturday afternoon.

44:47Will Kelleher: So brilliant to have Noel McNamara. What a job that is, as you said to him, Will, the attack coach of Bordeaux. There was, in fact, a really interesting thing I think he said in that interview was not basing a game plan upon lines on a pitch and basing it upon where the space is, which I think goes totally against so much of how we see the game approached in this part of the world, in the British Isles and Ireland.

45:09Alfie Reynolds: I love that chat. And actually, I was going to ask him a question about whether there's a sort of inherent difference in the brains of almost the Leinster system, Irish guys or English players that he's come across before and the French, because it just looks like that to us, doesn't it? Where the way they play to space and everything. But he answered it without prompt. And I just love that philosophy. And it doesn't fit everywhere in the world. And I would imagine there's quite a lot of players in the world who quite like structure but he's got just the most amazing amount of talent there but is giving them the freedom to go when it's on and like I said to him at the end there like I'm lucky enough to be going to Bilbao on the weekend and this could be an epic like watching I know he thought it was quite reductive as a coach would to say it's his attack against Ninava's defence but that's gonna be one of the awesome narratives to this final isn't it Charlie we so often say don't we

46:01Will Kelleher: that once we get to the final, we often in the last few years have got some of the great games and Porto-Lentz this weekend could produce that.

46:09Charlie Morgan: Yeah, and Noel McNamara's kind of, he has got, he would be the first to admit that he has got some serious toys to play with there, both in terms of athleticism, well, in terms of athleticism, power, creativity, Jalibers. I just love what he's got out of that though. And yeah, and how his just so palpably, His imprint is so palpably on that Bordeaux side and how they go about trying to kind of tease Nianaba's defence, I think is, you're right, is just fascinating. I think, I just, Leinster have, as we've said so many times this season, they haven't been super convincing, but they've kept winning.

46:51Charlie Morgan: they've got a lot of big guns back and fit and it's felt like they absolutely pumped Osprey's 68-14 I think at the weekend and Bordeaux had a nipper against Perfignol

47:04Alfie Reynolds: yeah well they stuck their bench with some of their better players

47:07Charlie Morgan: yeah I think Bordeaux's it's so weird isn't it the domestic game that kind of precedes a big final like this is just get through it but I think Leinster are coming on strong and will love the fact that they're underdogs they are going to the site of the last time they won this tournament. It's brilliant, you're right. This tournament has its foibles, for sure. And we spend a lot of time talking about that. But when it gets to the sharp end, you invariably get a seriously good game.

47:34Alfie Reynolds: I'm excited too. I've never been to the Basque country. Actually, no, that's not true. Do you remember when the Icelandic volcano erupted in 2010? Yeah. I was on a half-term trip to Barcelona at that point and we couldn't get home. got extended so we had to get a ferry from bilbao to portsmouth which took 30 hours with a bunch of school 30 hours it was actually with my family but yeah i thought you was school because my sister was at southampton university so it was like wait this works but it was i was doing my like what would it have been like a level mock revision on the ferry on the piano but yeah but what i was gonna say was that i'm really excited to hear some of this basque music that Noel McNamara was telling us about with Luco, the king of the Basca region and his family coming in playing fiddles and violins and drums and guitars and things like that.

48:26Alfie Reynolds: I need to go to a bar and get some tapas and find that. Do they call it tapas over there? I've got no idea. Maybe, it's probably a different word for it. You can report back for us.

48:33Will Kelleher: But we will look back on that match on the pod next week. Let's hope it's an absolute classic. On to the women's Six Nations. Now, Elgin was going to join us but he had a bit of a nightmare journey back from Bordeaux, I think. So we let him off joining us on the pod. But lads, a familiar story in that it's another title for England. It's another grand slam for England. But there's a feeling that this is perhaps one of their best, Charlie. The amount of players that they're missing. We've seen debutants come in, players playing out of position throughout this women's Six Nations. But it's still the same old story that England get the job done.

49:04Charlie Morgan: Yeah, I mean, John Mitchell was seriously emotional afterwards. And I think that spoke volumes for what sort of achievement it is. Having to delve deep down the depth chart, as you say. having to delve deep at times during that last game in France, in the Rourke State. France also had injuries themselves, but we were desperate to see, weren't we, England kind of be put in a corner and put in awkward situations. And they were in this game, which made it sort of more satisfying. Amy McCain going 75 minutes and scoring the telling try and then cupping her ear as she got it. That was beautiful, to be honest.

49:38Alfie Reynolds: I have a lot of time for that. Did you hear Jess Breach on the telly afterwards? Ugo was interviewing her. he went into the crowd with the mums and dads and things like that and it was a bit like how does this feel and she was a bit like yeah we love winning in France because they hate it I was like this is great imagine if a men's player said that it would be absolute carnage but it's just like

49:57Charlie Morgan: hey Red Rose is brilliant they have earned the right to be as punchy as they can and I actually enjoy that I think I just kind of read in the week that John Mitchell has been talking about everybody else's pursuit to overhaul them and I just think that's as much as kind of you could look at it two sides on one side But it's kind of a bit of shame for the women's game because this dominance is like nothing we've seen in the sport, you'd say. Certainly nothing you've seen in the men's international game. But also how a side's going to work out. They're going to have to do it eventually. But it's a special, special side and that's a special, special achievement.

50:30Alfie Reynolds: What on earth are you thinking on Monday morning as a French player?

50:34Will Kelleher: Well, particularly that first 20 minutes. It's like an impossible task. Controlling the game. England missing a load of players, as we've mentioned. You're in France. you score the first try great try by the way from their own 22

50:47Alfie Reynolds: that was amazing we were texting was it Sans Souza went in it was an unbelievable score incredible try it was like very Bordeaux attack from your own line tough wasn't it

50:55Will Kelleher: yeah totally but then as you say from a French point of view I've had written down here for you guys how big a missed opportunity is this for France and how demoralising is it to still be so far away because you looked at this game and you felt like there are so many so many things lining up for you here to try and finally get the better of England for the first time in ages and actually England and beat them more comfortably than they did at the end of last season. But this was the year, wasn't it?

51:16Alfie Reynolds: Like the roses coming off the back of winning the World Cup, like probably an emotional low after that because it's like the final boss has been beaten, we've done it, whatever. And then the injuries and then the pregnancies and then like loads of teenagers playing and stuff like that. And then you still can't beat them at home when you're ahead. It would be fascinating. I'd love to see a long read on the emotional toll that it's taken because probably some of these French players have played the roses what like 10, 12 times lost every single game. And it might be two points or it might be 10 or it might be 20, but it's always the bloody same.

51:52Alfie Reynolds: Like that must be savage for a sports person to just be like, I can't, I actually can't do it anymore.

51:58Will Kelleher: No, totally. The psychology of it is really interesting. And one thing I actually loved about the game, even though England ended up winning kind of a bit of a distance in the end, I love that there was a sense of jeopardy around it. So often you've got Red Roses matches where you know the result, you know what's going to happen. But there was a sense of sporting jeopardy and uncertainty kind of on that point, Charlie. And you mentioned this in your answer a moment ago. But you look at the women's Six Nations, you've got more eyeballs than ever before, attendance records, TV records, everything being smashed out of the park.

52:28Will Kelleher: But is it a problem that England are still so dominant, even when they're missing so many players? I think for the France game on the weekend, it was 11 players from the squad in the World Cup final that they were missing.

52:38Charlie Morgan: It's certainly problematic, but it's certainly now incumbent on other sides to get better, catch up. And I think England have done that this tournament, despite these absences, with maybe a bit of a change in mindset. I think anybody who'd watched them would suggest that they've taken the handbrake off a little bit. But it's great that they are, yeah, they've pushed the envelope in attack with Emily Scarrett taking over that area. I think I remember I asked Elg last time, one of the last times he was in here, about what's been the knock-on effect of Megan Jones' captaincy. And I think it's mindset.

53:14Charlie Morgan: She's a remarkable person, really. And I just think she's so refreshingly sort of up and at them about everything. And I think she was a perfect person to sort of lead this campaign. But they've set the bar. They keep setting it. This tournament has been them pushing it further ahead because of what they've achieved without the players that have been missing. So yeah, now I think it's up to France, up to New Zealand when New Zealand get a shot at them, to Canada, all this chasing pack to close the gap.

53:45Alfie Reynolds: I'm going to borrow this point and I don't think I actually agree with it, but I think it's an interesting point from a colleague. should the women's six nations have a investment salary cap to help balance the competitiveness of it i would say no i think no because it's sort of a cap on ambition and if if you're capable of spending 14 million pounds a year like the rfv do on is that about right that's about right isn't it i think about how much they put into the women's game if you're able to do that why shouldn't you be allowed to because it's attracting new fans it's new audiences everything else but we wouldn't allow that in the men's prem that bar spend 14 million pounds and newcastle spend two for example i think it's i think that's interesting maybe leave that hanging for people for to email us in

54:31Will Kelleher: i feel like that work a problematic dynamic as well in particular because it's the women's game yes because then you're saying oh you're only allowed to spend a small amount of money cap it off so that's why i think no and i think and you're going as slow as the slowest which is not exactly a rewarding ambition and i also think that yes okay rf you might be able to spend more than many other unions but the RFU have shown what you can do when you put money into your women's program and I think as Charlie said it's up to them to all catch up and I think I think there are teams in the women's six nations that really should be a little bit embarrassed about how far behind England they now find themselves I would say Ireland you look at Ireland they're a

55:10Charlie Morgan: side that have progressed massively and that and that's that's shown when what happens when there's you know investment made in coaching smart decisions made around coaching and there's And yeah, and you're seeing progress from them for sure.

55:23Will Kelleher: Yeah. Well, fair play to the Red Roses once again. Also, you started off by saying about Amy Cocaine cupping her ear and Jess Breach and whatnot. I also really enjoyed, I don't know if you saw this, that there are some quotes of England saying, we've proved our doubters wrong because people thought they might go and lose in France. Just looking out for some doubters. But I really appreciate just the, you know, finding anything, the old Michael Jordan thing of just finding anything that you can attach yourself to. And I took that personally. You've won 37 games in a row. You have no doubt. Very, very quickly, because we're running out of time, we better finish off with the Prem.

55:59Will Kelleher: And there is nowhere really we can start here other than Friday night, Franklin's Gardens. Will, you were there. Northampton, 94. Bristol, 33. I'm throwing to you so that I don't go into a full blown meltdown and rant on this result. Do you get more Bristolia when you get angry? You might be about to find out. Or you would have found out on Friday night.

56:18Alfie Reynolds: Okay. So this reminds me, this is a real niche throwback, but Geoffrey Boycott used to do the Test Match Special Review podcasts with Jonathan Agnew. And there was one really funny one where England got, they were chasing like 140 in Dubai against Pakistan and lost. And he did a sort of like, Pakistan, amazing. however what a lord of rubbish that was it's like that's sort of this like northampton were sensational archie mcpartland was amazing he's made it into the england squad fully deserved freeman was brilliant finn smith was brilliant coals was brilliant there was balls that people like ed prowls the second row was throwing where you're like this is just so inherent this attacking system in saints and they're all on the same page and when they are you get torn however what a load of rubbish that was from bristol they folded they looked like they were not playing for their coach they lost their heads joe batley's challenge on finn smith late was pretty disgraceful i think moroni completely lost it going for pollock at the end totally unnecessarily they were getting done for back chat all the time their defense was sliced constantly which was bad news for van Rendsburg in the midfield who got hooked after 50 odd minutes I think it's sort of pulled the rug hugely from well Bristol season is basically over I mean it's not quite because Exeter lost but Sarri's are going to go above them they have already haven't they and they're going to be rattling towards the playoffs with the best chance of getting into that top four you'd think now with all that momentum so it's another season of underachievement for Bristol who look we know they don't spend what they're used to on their squads we know they're sort of in their post-Galactico era and they're focusing more on developing young talent and things like that however they've got a very good squad they're very well resourced they've got great fans and they haven't won anything and in a league where six out of the last years they've had six winners and Bristol aren't one of them that's not good enough I would say they should have won the league in 21 we know that Bristol and Ball everything else and since then they've had one semi-final lost to bath did quite well there but they always seem to be a team that if they get into the playoffs are definitely going to lose a semi-final away and if they don't they've had a terrible season i mean like unfortunately i think it's this bad reflection on pat lamb i have to say like he's been there for pretty much 10 years now hasn't he got them up to the champ super ambitious was talking immediately about winning the champions cup and we all sort of love the ambition and we're going like well hey here we go bristol a new thing this is quite exciting and shot for the stars and has won one trophy challenge cup and like i know bristol value a lot more than just winning rugby games on the field and they do a great job down there in lots of different facets and separately i know that they're fully behind pat lamb and they're not going to sack him but there needs to be some big questions there there would be at any

59:21Charlie Morgan: other club wouldn't they you can't you cannot ship 94 for sure the the the Ellis Genge sort of putting Henry Pollock in a headlock within 90 seconds or whatever that that just I can't believe that didn't get called in and penalized for one but also it just kind of set the tone for a team that looked really scrambled and there were a lot of that you mentioned the Batley thing the Moroni thing I think they were unlucky in in some ways on on Friday night not just to come up against Saints. There were so many bounces that almost laughably fell towards Saints.

59:52Alfie Reynolds: Finn Smith got charged down in his 0-22, went to free when they scored the other end. You're like, what?

59:56Charlie Morgan: Yeah, there were loads of them. There were sort of knock-ons or potential knock-ons that got checked and then fell in Saints' favour. The Revovo yellow was very harsh, I thought, but 90 points is a hell of a lot. You've got to go some.

1:00:12Alfie Reynolds: 61 at half-time.

1:00:13Charlie Morgan: You've got to go some.

1:00:15Alfie Reynolds: It's the worst ever in the Prem. Literally, it was the biggest half-time score ever and it was their greatest ever defeat in the professional era, Bristol.

1:00:23Charlie Morgan: So much has to go wrong to concede that many and it cannot be, it cannot be a sign of togetherness within a squad, I'm afraid.

1:00:33Will Kelleher: And I think the most damning part of all of this is they were going for top four. Yeah, exactly. Their season wasn't over. This wasn't, you know, a dead rubber at the end of their campaign. this was a crucial game against a top four rival. I thought it was an absolute disgrace.

1:00:50Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, and we've talked about the blowouts. This has been the season of blowouts. There'll be more than any other season, but so many of them involve Newcastle, Gloucester, Sale and Harlequins, and there's hardly any of them that have involved top four. I know I was at another one, which was Bath smashing Saracens.

1:01:07Will Kelleher: Well, just on that point, so I've got a list here, and I had to kind of cap this at teams scoring 60, because otherwise there was one exception.

1:01:13Alfie Reynolds: I mean, that's mental that you've got a really long list of ones that were 60 or more to start with.

1:01:18Will Kelleher: Just this season, Bath 62, Saracen's 15, Harlequins 76, Newcastle 17, Leicester 62, Newcastle 3, Saracen's 85, Sale 19, Saracen's 73, Newcastle 14, Northampton 66, Harlequins 21, Saracen's 65, Sale 14, and then the only one that doesn't have 60, Sale 57, Newcastle 5. I know a lot of those include Newcastle, but it's not just Newcastle. It's not just a Newcastle issue. How big an issue for the league are those scorelines?

1:01:49Alfie Reynolds: I mean, yeah, it's been wild, hasn't it, Charlie? Because you're at these games and I thought actually it was going to be a bit of tri-tennis because you got 14 minutes in and you were like, it was one each. And then I wrote in my report, Northampton sort of broke serve. And then they just kept banging down aces the whole time. You sort of think, what is happening here? And again, you've written about this, Charlie. it sounds like we're not actually all of us that old but you look at it and you go are people just not concentrating or their brains gone or something like

1:02:17Charlie Morgan: are they just bored during the game I said is it concentration issue among players and they go no of course not no there wasn't you've just got to repackage sort of information differently when you're coaching and everything like that but mate it's a perfect storm of stuff but I think I do think defences have been really poor in the Prem this year generally and some of it is some of it feels like mindset, feels like concentration lapses. But maybe Bristol thought until Saints get four or five tries ahead, we'll have it in us to haul this in and at least get... The bonus point rule is trash anyway and looked shocking when it was Ivanishvili scored Bristol's fourth after they'd conceded 12.

1:03:07Charlie Morgan: which is mad and you know what i felt myself sort of getting hot and bothered as they were pressing to score their third going they're going to get a consolation out of this and it's been an it's been insipid and they're going to get a consolation by virtue of this dumb system that now has to

1:03:24Alfie Reynolds: surely has to do you know what i 100 agree with you the only caveat i was watching leicester sale on sunday and i was like that actually made the last 20 minutes of that game better because sale were like, oh, do you know what? We could get a point out of this. And Leicester's just totally switched off and it made it more interesting at the end of the game.

1:03:44Charlie Morgan: But wouldn't it be better if Leicester couldn't switch off and they actually had to be asked to defend? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously that's got to change. That's so stupid. Yeah, totally. Champ are changing it next season or trying to. They're going to try and push it through.

1:03:58Will Kelleher: Lads, we've overrun, so we'll have to leave it there. Very quickly though, Charlie, because I know you wanted to mention this, your trip to the Champ on the weekend.

1:04:05Charlie Morgan: Went to the Richmond Athletic Ground to watch the relegation eliminator playoff between Richmond and London Scottish, which was won by Richmond. It was just very interesting because, as we know, with the champ, there are these different models. There are full-time sides. There are fully amateur sides, as Richmond are. London Scottish was quite interesting because they are somewhere in the middle, whereby they're a feeder club for Harlequins, essentially. And because of Harlequins' massive injuries this year, London Scottish have consequently struggled. and it was just interesting in the build-up, talking to both camps, Richmond were really worried that London Scottish wouldn't make use of these regulations, which meant they could have had six emergency loans on top of the loans that they already had.

1:04:44Charlie Morgan: And so there was a bit, I know London Scottish was sort of playing a bit, they were wondering whether they should sort of leave a few question marks on the team sheet out of mischief, which would have been very fun. But what it means, Richmond winning fairly comfortably means, London Scottish has to have to turn around again and to stay in the champ, they have to beat Blackheath this weekend, which is going to be very interesting because Blackheath have been on a tear.

1:05:05Will Kelleher: Do you know what? It is good that, isn't it? I know the horse has bolted now and the Prem is in a new era, but the kind of relegation playoffs is a really cool thing to keep a lot of teams and a lot of sense of jeopardy. Oh, the tension.

1:05:16Charlie Morgan: I don't think both sides would probably admit that it was really angsty and tense and the quality probably suffered a little bit for that, but you want those stakes, don't you? You want those stakes. I like that.

1:05:27Alfie Reynolds: Do you want my little claim to fame? that's nat one related I went to school with Billy Harding who scored like six tries every time he played he was on Clubber TV what a legend that guy is

1:05:40Will Kelleher: so can I quickly ask for those that don't know like me so he's the Black Heath hooker

1:05:43Alfie Reynolds: who has broken basically every record possible for scoring tries in a season I don't even know what number it is but it's in the 40s isn't it he's scoring at least one try every game of the season BLBRA eat your heart out Yeah, but way beyond Ville Barret. And he's doing it from hooker. And they're not all maltries. Some of them are from his own half. It's ridiculous.

1:06:03Charlie Morgan: Slotty interviewed him and it's a lovely piece if anybody's missed that the first time.

1:06:07Alfie Reynolds: He was back row at school, a year below me. But yeah, he's Blackheath. I think he's moved around a few clubs but settled at Blackheath.

1:06:12Will Kelleher: Go and search for Slotty's piece, The Times Online. Will, Charlie, pleasure as always. Loads fit into the pod today. So appreciate all of you that have been listening. If you want to send us an email, the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. We'll be back with you next Monday to review the Champions Cup final. Have a great week. Before you go, we just want to shine a light on the great work Allianz is doing behind the scenes to support the game we all love. We talk a lot on the Ruck about Premiership stars and England internationals, but every one of those journeys starts somewhere. Usually on a freezing morning at a local club with volunteers, hand-me-down kit and a belief that rugby can genuinely change lives.

1:06:50Will Kelleher: Allianz gets how important those places are, which is why they're launching a special edition of the Allianz Future Fund just for Ruck listeners. They're offering grants of£500 to£1 ,000 to help local clubs become more inclusive, more sustainable and better set up for the next generation. Whether it's new kit, safer facilities or giving young players the space to grow into tomorrow's heroes, this is a real chance to make a difference. Sign up for the Allianz Future Fund, nominate your club and help support the grassroots heart of the game.

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