Six Nations halfway house: Can Scotland or Ireland stop France’s procession?

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1:06Alfie Reynolds: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Welcome back. What a weekend. What a weekend of Six Nations action. And in studio with me, Alfie Reynolds, to review it all is Stuart Barnes, fresh from the Wiltshire Express. Morning, Barnsie. Good morning. Good to see you again. Trains are on time today as well.

1:25Stuart Barnes: trains were fast

1:28Alfie Reynolds: which is noteworthy because that doesn't often happen also with us Elgin Alderman who got back the last Eurostar you came back from Lille yesterday Elgin

1:37Elgan Alderman: I did indeed yes it was a strange moment this morning I had to let Stuart Barnes into the building if a childhood Elgin had been told that that man commentates in rugby games one day I'd be letting him into the building who'd have thought that would happen

1:48Stuart Barnes: I've been working here 20 odd years and I still don't have a pass never had one never had one

1:53Alfie Reynolds: that always makes me laugh every time that you join us in person, Barnsley, which is always good, but I have to book you in as a guest, which makes no sense to me. These Maverick England fly halves,

2:02Elgan Alderman: you never can trust them with a pass to a building, can you?

2:06Alfie Reynolds: So look, round three of the Six Nations, brilliant round. We're going to come on to England. I know there's still loads in the paper this morning, on Monday morning, about the England-Ireland game. We'll come on to that because we had the pod from Saturday, from the stands at Twickenham. Maybe a couple of general ones, and then we'll start with the Wales-Scotland game. But generally, into the Fallow Week now, who's the Fallow Week come at a good time for? Who's the Fallow Week come at a bad time for?

2:33Stuart Barnes: I think it's probably come at a good time for Scotland. They turned around their poor start with a wonder performance against England. And then they performed with an English degree of complacency against Wales. And they got away with it. That was the key. The key is if you don't play well, you get away with it. and Scotland did, and they can just reset a little bit now and prepare themselves for their next match. And, you know, they're in a good situation at the moment.

3:05Elgan Alderman: I think for England and Wales it's come at a good time just because with these five matches, it does feel a bit like a five-test cricket series. And if you just keep on losing week to week, then it can just get on top of you. So at least England now, after two galling defeats, they can perhaps reset a bit and try and have that extra week to focus on what went wrong. But equally, Wales, after the efforts of that Scotland game, an extra week of building on that, hopefully a week of recovery from that. Hopefully it'll do them good stead as well before Ireland and Italy in the last two rounds.

3:33Alfie Reynolds: It's funny, as I was planning to ask you both that question, I was thinking I'm not actually sure there's anyone that it's a bad time for. I think you can make the case for everyone that it's quite a good time. And maybe that's because there's only one rest week this time around. So everyone, whether you're England and have been humiliated at home or whether your side sort of picked up good results, it's quite a good time to take stock and have a week off.

3:53Stuart Barnes: Ten years or so ago, when you had a few teams with massively powerful squads and teams with weak squads, that extra week was crucial. What I'm talking about really is Italy here. Italy were a hard team, first couple of games. As the tournament went on, they became weaker. They got two or three injuries, whereas France or England or Ireland or Wales at that time could live with those injuries. Italy couldn't. But Italy are building a better squad now. So I think what you say is absolutely right there. Italy now would probably be almost thinking I wouldn't mind getting hold of England immediately.

4:28Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, true, true. Oh, God, we'll come on to that trip to Rome for England. All of a sudden looks hell of a lot trickier than maybe many people would have expected it was going to be. Most significant result of round three. Three quite interesting fixtures, I think, isn't it? England 21, Ireland 42. geez, Wales 23, Scotland 26 and then France 33, Italy 8 what do you reckon?

4:51Elgan Alderman: I think France-Italy scoreline was just about what people expected it to be I think Wales-Scotland was closer than a lot of people thought it was going to be but the result was still what most people thought it would be obviously I think you're staring at Ireland's demolition of England at Twickenham as the result, performance and scoreline that even those with slightly green-tinted lenses perhaps wouldn't have seen coming to quite that degree.

5:15Stuart Barnes: Yeah, I mean, the Scotland-Wales game, the France-Italy game, they're sort of on a scale of escalation at Alpine. England's defeat against Ireland was Himalayan. Had that been 42-21 in Ireland, you'd have said, blimey, England are rocking now at Twickenham. And to see England eclipsed in every facet of the play from start to finish and to hear a crowd that was with swing low was getting quieter and quieter. They've got problems now.

5:46Alfie Reynolds: Big, big problems. Big, big problems for England. So thank you to all of you that have got in touch with the email address, theruckatthetimes.co.uk. We will get to that. We will get to England. We will get to the fallout. I want to start at the Principality, though, that Wales game. Narrow defeat for Wales. Elgin, before the match, Steve Tandy was saying, I found it amazing. I completely understand why, but I found it amazing that you had a Wales head coach basically saying it's not about winning the game. It's about having an improved performance. Well, they certainly got that. How important was that in terms of the performance just to inject a bit of belief and passion back into this team in this nation?

6:22Elgan Alderman: Yeah, hugely important because I think it was almost certainly Wales' most complete to best performance since the 2023 World Cup. And it was still in the game that they lost, which shows the parameters we're dealing with right now. I think half the team probably had their best ever game in a Wales jersey. Dewy Lake, Rhys Carey, Ben Carter with a rare start at lock. Aaron Wainwright, he's been Wales' best player really over the past seven years, but he was great at the end. Eddie James, talk of that being maybe a coming-of-age performance for a big young man at outside centre as well. Obviously, there was a lot of heartbreak.

6:57Elgan Alderman: It was good old-fashioned Welsh heartbreak, where you thought you'd win and lose, rather than know you were going to lose after five minutes. So it's a very different story. But for more than 70 ,000 people in the stadium after the 57 ,000 that had been there for that France game, where it felt more like a Parisian suburb than the Welsh capital, for there to be a decent crowd in the stadium with something to be invested in, something to get them going, hopefully for Wales, it will have led to a bit of a surge on ticket sales for that final weekend against Italy. because that before the game was looking at an attendance possibly starting in a four and hopefully now that will now boost over the next two or three weeks.

7:37Elgan Alderman: So it gave something for Wales to think that, yes, this is now going in the right direction. There were shoots there of something that Wales can now hang their hat on.

7:47Alfie Reynolds: Is that enough then, Barnsley? Is the performance and the fact that they've shown something enough for Wales? I messaged a good friend of mine who's a passionate Welshman. and he went to Cardiff for the game, and I asked him exactly the same thing, because I was looking at it partly, and I totally get the run that Wales have been on, but looked at that game. If you look at it in the cold light of day, they should have, I think you make a pretty good case they should have won it, but actually has the run before this been so bad that the result isn't the most important thing?

8:13Stuart Barnes: Well, I think Scotland in that last half hour showed they had the firepower to win that game, so I wouldn't wholly agree with your premise there. But I think the key here, Wales got the performance they got the performance they needed but I just, we never know coaches say one thing to the public and one thing to their camp but Steve Tandy's very public comment that winning isn't important performance is all that matters to us if that is what he said that probably cost Wales the game because the higher the level of rugby the more it's about the psychological power the self-belief is vital You know, when we're writing about rugby, we can talk about the tactics and we can talk about the power of a scrum and a line-out.

9:00Stuart Barnes: But the belief in winning has to be pervasive. Obviously, it's hard for Wales, having lost so many Six Nations games on the bounce anyway. So I'd have thought that Tandy should be going out there saying, look, even if all of Wales, all of Rugby Ward is laughing, saying we're going to beat Scotland. I really believe we can beat them. And I suspect, you know, Scotland are a better team than Wales, but Scotland, I think, were very complacent in the first half and had Wales really believed they might just have got over the line.

9:32Elgan Alderman: The trouble with, if Steve Tandy had come out with a big tub-thumping address, I think a lot of people would have just thought, oh, you're deluding yourself, Steve, that's the problem. I understand what you're saying, Stu, of course. But, you know, you look back the week before, talking the aftermath of that 54-12 defeat by France and trying to be positive. And again, people were going, how can you be positive about this? You've just lost 54-12 at home to France. It's one of those things where, yeah, coaches' comments, it is a fine line, isn't it, between wanting to sound bullish but also being told that you're being deluded in either direction, whether you're being overly positive for something that's negative or overly negative for something that's positive.

10:08Stuart Barnes: But the main thing is, he's got to get his players believing because if his players believe, you will then get, you'll have a chance of the performance and a chance of the win. if you're worried about what the general public are saying, if you're worried what Elgin Alderman and Stuart Barnes are going to write, then all you're doing is knocking your team again and that's why it's a real skill Andy Farrell, he came out after the game, didn't he? And he said, look he was a bully and he said I didn't care if we won or lost I wanted a performance which we didn't get for two wins, but you can be sure that what he said then and what he said in the dressing room all week didn't amount to the same thing he would have said yes we must get the performance and if we get the performance we will win Wales can't say that because the gap between performance and result is too large at the moment they've narrowed it a little bit and now you know when they play their next two games they've got to be saying we can win this game if we get the right performance

11:08Alfie Reynolds: yeah I must admit I found that the Tandy comments a little strange I get what you're saying Elgin And if you get the tone wrong, everyone's going to say, well, what are you talking about? You're absolutely dreadful at the moment. Worst Welsh team we've ever seen, et cetera, et cetera. But you've got to put belief in, certainly, and hopefully, well, the players, it looked like they had a bit of belief in terms of how they went about their business. Angus emailed us. I want to put this to you both in terms of Scotland. He emailed the ruck at the times.co.uk and he said Scotland's win over Wales is being talked about like a huge achievement.

11:37Alfie Reynolds: In reality, didn't this just follow their usual pattern of odds-defying underperformance following an odds-defying overperformance? They scraped past arguably the worst Wales side ever thanks to a calamitous error and the bounce of a ball.

11:52Elgan Alderman: But we were talking a lot before the game about how Scotland do tend to lose after beating England, and they did win on this occasion. Just. Just, but they did improve on what history suggests happens. And now they've got this two-week gap before they welcome France to Murrayfield, which even before the tournament, I think, was always looking like the major test for France if they were going to win a Grand Slam that penultimate weekend in Murrayfield. Huge French travelling support, great occasion. They've now got over the hump of the post-England game, and they can now really attack that fixture.

12:27Elgan Alderman: Two years ago, they came so close to winning that. That will be difficult for France to win. we'll get onto France, you know, still searching for the Grand Slam in a minute. But, you know, Scotland did just about do enough. I know there were plenty of caveats about where Wales have been, but they found what they needed to do to win in the end, even if there was a bit of fortune, skill, whatever you want to call it late on.

12:50Stuart Barnes: I would say that our emailer was spot on there. I wouldn't mind writing that for the Times or the Sunday Times. What's your next column done then?

12:59Elgan Alderman: You can just copy and paste the email. We haven't read it. Yeah.

13:02Stuart Barnes: Scotland overplayed, outstanding, overachieved, sorry, outstanding against England. We're talking about performance, not result. They were poor, very poor against Wales. It took the fact that they've got a few magicians in their team in the last half hour to turn it around. And they did keep their poise and turn it around. And in the end, Scotland have got away with this one because they've fallen into the same pit that they've kept falling into. but this time they have won and now Gregor Townsend can turn around and say for God's sake you come up with a performance like that against England and then you're awful but in the past their awfulness has resulted in defeat they've got away with this and going back to my theme of complacency Scotland's complacency it's gone now you know they've got France next France is the best team in the tournament so they can now say right hey we're underdogs again and Finn Russell can come out and say get ready boys here it comes here's the you know everything to play for nothing to lose

14:03Alfie Reynolds: it's a great situation for Scotland yeah I definitely think Scotland got away with it to a degree because they came up against that Welsh team I think there are so many other teams that they'd have been playing against if they produced that performance I think so they wouldn't have won the game but credit to them for coming back and if we're talking about moments the quickly playtake and restart Finn Russell, Darcy Graham. How much of your focus here is on Wales switching off and turning their backs and how much of it is about heads up intelligent rugby from the Scots?

14:33Stuart Barnes: Not intelligent rugby, inspired rugby. And you need inspiration in certain positions. And Scotland have it in Finn Russell. It's very easy to say, oh, the other team were poor. We said it about England. But there's somebody, a couple of players make you look poor. Russell has that capacity to just make you look an idiot. I was watching that game on television from the press room and everyone was criticising Wales for not turning the back. And yes, there was a lucky bounce for Scotland and Darcy Graham. But those things happen when you've got geniuses coming up with things like Russell. He is a genie.

15:07Elgan Alderman: Yeah, no, absolutely. It really irks me when you see something in professional sport that you're told not to do at schoolboy level. And I'm sure you remember being taught, you know, never turn your back, that type of thing. from a whether it's a 10 meter tap penalty whether it's a restart anything like that so of course that'll be irritating and the fact that one of the men involved James Botham had an absolutely titanic game coming on earlier at Flanker as well looks like he might get a run in the starting jersey as well now of course but Russell saw the opportunity yes there was a bounce of the ball but he put himself in that position where something magical could happen and it did and it did turn the game really that moment that after that that felt like Wales had been deflated because they were clinging on and then suddenly it was a real sucker punch.

15:50Stuart Barnes: Yeah, when that try happened, you know, there weren't many, everyone was in the press conference with you, but in the press room, those of us writing with an eye on the game said, Scotland win this now. You're absolutely right.

16:01Alfie Reynolds: And that's why I asked you earlier, is it a game that Wales should have won? Because for me, that was such a defining moment that was so fixable. And I get, look, I'm being kind of harsh on Wales here. Like overall, it was a positive afternoon because my God, we've been wanting to see something from this Welsh team for a while but when you look at that moment how pivotal it was how much it totally changed the game and the momentum and the feel of it Wales had just extended their lead and then just like that Scotland take a big chunk out of it that's kind of why I feel that's why I asked the question of how much did almost Wales mess this up and even

16:34Elgan Alderman: after that there were quite a few moments where Wales still could have taken the lead or or won the game it's you know there has been some talk about whether they whether they get the rub of the green of refereeing decisions at the moment it's it's not the first time we've heard people suggesting that teams under the pump get penalized more I do wonder sometimes you know it's chicken and egg are they being penalized because they're under pressure or is there this thing in the referee's mind where they think oh they're under pressure therefore you know they they don't get the rub of the green the the thing with test rugby is because sometimes you get decisions sometimes you don't you have to almost take the referee out of it don't you and if it's a if it's a narrow game like that, a tight scoreline, then of course when you lose you can point to those decisions.

17:16Elgan Alderman: But if you're better, you can then not point to those decisions because you've been good enough on the field that they don't feel like they've had as big of an impact.

17:24Stuart Barnes: The weaker a team, the more you go backwards. The more you go backwards, the harder it is to compete at breakdowns and scrums and therefore the decisions go against you. And that's why there is a rationale for referees seeming to favour the teams that are on top because they're in the positions to win the penalties and to force the penalties against Wales. But when you said should Wales have won, the answer is no. Could and should are irrelevancies. They're things you prepare for a match and the could and shoulds are what happened in that moment. And Finn Russell just said, look, here's a could.

18:04Stuart Barnes: But he had to put that kick in the right space, had the temerity to do it, and he did.

18:09Alfie Reynolds: And now Scotland have backed up a win against England. They're kicking on in the Championship. The other match, the Sunday game, Elgin, you were there in Lille, France, Italy. Relatively comfortable win for France, although up until about 70 minutes, it was still about 19-8. Was this another round of French dominance? Was the final scoreline actually more one-sided than the game suggests?

18:31Elgan Alderman: Certainly, Gonzalo Casada, the Italy head coach, thought the scoreline didn't quite tell the picture of what an even contest it had been. Like you say, it was 1980 until the 70th minute. That fourth try came when Italy only had 13 men on the field. They'd had a yellow card and they hadn't yet been able to replace the injured Ange Capuazzo because there was a bit of a, I was actually watching it, there was a bit of a clerical dispute on the sideline. I think they wanted to bring Monti Ioane on for Ange Capuazzo, but they still had a substitute flanker left over, so they had to bring him on. So I think a clerical error and France taking the line out quite swiftly was what led to that situation, which Italy weren't happy about.

19:09Elgan Alderman: But until that stage, yes, it was only 19-8. I think a very even contest. The difference was France's ability just to score out of nowhere. Those first three tries, the first one was at the end of the opening passage of the play. Contestable kick that we're all talking about at the moment. It lands in Dupont's hands. He turns, kicks it downfield. Louis Biel, Biarré, released out of a cannon. Try. Another one, ball over the top of a line now. Emilien Gaetan runs onto it. 60 metres downfield. Ramos in support. Try. Their ability to strike from nowhere is what separates them from the rest of the teams at the moment.

19:45Elgan Alderman: We focus so much on their attack. Fabien Galtier, the head coach, said, actually, defence is what I'm really happy with at the moment. We've got more out there in attack at the moment. Three games, they've scored 18 tries. They've only conceded five. So they're not just great entertainers. They are great entertainers, but they can also harangue and tackle like any other team in the championship as well.

20:07Stuart Barnes: Yeah, they look a complete team at the moment. I totally agree with Elgin there about France's capacity just to strike. And it needs reminding that good a player as Thomas Ramos is, fullback or fly half, at the moment the loss of Jalibert is big. and he gives him that killer bite in the midfield. And Ramos, you know, one or two amazing sort of kicks and vision you can't believe he can have. He does that, but Jalibert at the moment is just constantly carving midfields apart and he's destroying defences. And I was thinking about England on the train on the way here and how they defended so woefully against Ireland, not knowing when to come in, when to go out.

20:55Stuart Barnes: And I'm thinking if their defence is like that when they go to Paris, Jalibert is just going to slice. I hate the cliché, but it's a knife-butter scenario.

21:05Elgan Alderman: I still think France can win the Grand Slam if they have to keep Ramos at 10. But yeah, like you say, the difference with Jalibert was stark because when Ramos is at 15, he's essentially the tertiary playmaker. 9-10-15 Dupont, Jalibert, Ramos can all act in control of the game. But because Ramos is that bit removed, he can do his magic without being that central figure. Whereas I think we saw in Lille that the team can be a bit susceptible to his whims, where if it goes a bit against him, then obviously it impacts more if he's wearing that number 10 jersey than when he can be that secondary 10 behind Jalibert.

21:42Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, OK, so France looking pretty good. We'll come on to their title prospects in just a moment. Just a word on Ireland, because I'd imagine a lot of the interaction we've had in terms of emails and stuff has been England-focused. How much of a victory was Saturday, not just for this Irish team, but for Andy Farrell as a coach, and in particular as a motivator, which we've touched upon already, Stuart?

22:04Stuart Barnes: Well, he's taken a lot of stick in Ireland, a hell of a lot of stick in Ireland, and Ireland have been dismissed as, you know, the past-it team, the granddads. and I must admit when they selected this team the back five in the pack looked so experienced and I'm thinking I thought then that's a good team and Gibson Park I thought was very clever that they left Gibson Park out and I don't think many people have said it he was left out for Italy and wasn't very happy and it was reported that he'd been dropped but we've seen so many of the Lions from Australia the Test Lions not really hitting the straps at all in the Six Nations at all and Gibson Park was one of those in the early, first round in the autumn, not playing well.

22:50Stuart Barnes: He took 80 minutes off, dropped, came back, absolutely brilliant. That is man management. You say to someone, you're a really good player, but you need a break. You've still got it. And he came back and he just, you know, he tore into England. And I thought it was brilliant man management on the part of Farrell. I thought he either looked they were geared up physically and mentally for this match England didn't at all I mean if it's it's about teams in the end but there's also the sort of subplot and if it's Borthwick versus Farrell and that's probably 60-0 as opposed to 40-21 it was a real battering for the England management

23:32Alfie Reynolds: yeah and it looked to me like an Irish team where the coach had absolutely pressed the right buttons through the week they looked on a different emotional level compared to England. And that in itself is a problem. I'll tell you what, we'll take a very quick break. And after this, we'll look ahead to the next round of action after this fallow week. And also we'll get into all your emails about England.

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25:45Stuart Barnes: they are uh it's as much the nature of the performance as the defeats and it's huge i wrote in monday's times that i think that these two defeats obviously numerically it's not the same as 12 wins but they're in a situation now where they go to Rome and if we now have to imagine England losing to Italy and if that happens they then go to France and England could be on the back of four terrible performances opposed to a run of 12 wins where there was some good performances but there was some average opposition as well and suddenly it all looks paper thin everything England achieved and Steve Bordwick his mantra at the moment is we never said we were the best in the world when we were winning and we're not the worst in the world now we've lost a couple.

26:30Stuart Barnes: Well I don't know you know my colleagues can write what they want but I've never said England were the best team in the world and right now you know I'm not going to be prevented from saying they are probably playing the worst rugby I have seen since Steve Borthwick took over in 2023 when France put 53 points on them and they've stopped playing rugby they've stopped playing rugby they resorted to the box kick The defensive pattern, I don't understand how England can be so naive 12-13. They can't put any width on their game in attack at the moment, other than the diagonal kick. And when Finn Russell or Jack Crowley puts width on the passing, they can't defend width.

27:15Stuart Barnes: Get outside that 15-metre line, and England are desperate.

27:19Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, I mean, let me put this to you, because Marcelo got in touch. Now, most of the emails we've had have been along the line of what you've been saying and most of the reaction has obviously been pretty strong. But he said, as a neutral, watching England, Ireland couldn't help but feel the fallout from it as a bit dramatic. England came into this as one of the favourites after a brilliant 12 months. So does two defeats really undo all of that? Is Borthwick really under pressure after two defeats? Were Ireland and Scotland not just the better team in both? and then looking ahead to Italy, my team, how worried should our England about that game in Rome?

27:53Alfie Reynolds: So as you've said, Barnsley, it's more about the manner of the defeats rather than the defeats themselves.

27:57Elgan Alderman: Yeah, I think what strikes me is that England look like if just one thing goes off in their game plan, everything else just falls like a house of cards. They need to get the luck of the bounce on these contestable kicks. They need everything to be there just so that everything kind of works in clockwork. Whereas you think of some other teams, you know, we've mentioned France's ability to strike. You feel like they can be off in some parts of the game, but suddenly they can just go 70 metres and score a try. Whereas England look like they are incapable of breaking a game open unless everything is going their way.

28:28Elgan Alderman: And in the last two games, obviously, very little has gone their way in that regard. So it has just collapsed like a house of cards. I think the exchange rate among fans would be six wins are equal to one defeat because it does feel like the hope of those 12 wins has evaporated entirely. early in terms of the hearts and minds, as it were, of what they think of this England team.

28:49Alfie Reynolds: Jake also got in touch and he said, I know you'll focus on the basic errors as the reason why we were so poor, but I think the last two games have shown, what the last two games have shown is that without a fair wind, links to what you've just said, Elgin, we're just a limited team. An indication of a poor team is when they look overcoached when they're behind, which we definitely are. How much pressure, Barnsley, do you think Steve Borthwick is realistically under at this moment in time?

29:14Stuart Barnes: Probably not very much because the RFU has a history of not acting in any capacity.

29:20Alfie Reynolds: Do you think that's the right thing then?

29:23Stuart Barnes: No, I don't. I think there should be pressure. It's a big job. It's one of the biggest in rugby and it comes with pressure. And England have been risible for two games. There's no two ways about it. They've been terrible. and that question when he said I know you're going to concentrate on the errors I'm not going to concentrate on the errors I'm going to say the primary reason why England have looked such a second-rate team in the last two matches is a managerial one and I've I've been saying this about the last few years of Eddie Jones and the entire uh Borthwick period which is the over obsession with a game plan you cannot England can't England because they've got big forwards if they get it right up front, they can take on anyone.

30:08Stuart Barnes: And that is what's happened. But when that goes, as we've been saying, France can split and go. They can have a difficult 40 minutes up front, but they can score three tries. England can't. England can't envisage it for the simple reason that England should have now. They should have several game plans. They should have a game plan that can filter in all sorts of directions. That's what France do. what England still have is the game plan and the game plan is one game plan and one one game plan goes wrong as it did in Murrayfield as it did at Twickenham then you're left with nothing that is why from 1 to 23 you can look at the players but the fault lies with the manager with Steve Balthwick

30:52Alfie Reynolds: so I was going to ask you that of how much is it on the coaches and how much is it on the players because I get all of that but I still look at some aspects of the England performance over these last two games and the really sloppy reads in defence that Ellis Gendron, Caelan Doris in the second half was a really, really bad one. There were lots of others throughout the game. The passes that are just going to hand, the sloppy skills, like it's not all on the coaches, is it? Like the players have been way off it the last couple of weeks.

31:18Stuart Barnes: Yeah, but these foundations and England's foundations, England are being set out what to do and they're being set out and it looks so rigid that the little, when the big rigid picture goes, all the little things just crumble. It only takes a gust of wind and it's gone. I mean, the Ellis Genge, that just seemed petty and ridiculous, a sort of a barge when he wasn't tackling. But, you know, I'm looking at Fraser Dingwall stepping inside when he should never have stepped inside Balakun for a try. I'm looking at Olly Lawrence, a feeble attempt at a tackle. But there's a structure and a shape here.

31:59Stuart Barnes: The players, I think are not treated with enough maturity. England are comfortable when they think the players know exactly what they've got to do and exactly is one of the worst words in any sport. You can't, when my football team Arsenal try and play exactly to a game plan, they're trying to get a corner and win. In the second half against Tottenham Hotspur yesterday, suddenly Eze and co were shifting the patterns and they were doing things arsed or haven't done for 10 weeks and they destroyed Tottenham. That's what happens when you've got the freedom to just shift your pattern. England have no freedom, there is no shift therefore anything goes wrong or Finn Russell comes up and he sticks a fork in it then you've had it.

32:47Alfie Reynolds: I'm quite impressed Elgin that it took Barnsley up to this point to mention the North London derby I was expecting it earlier to be honest so you've shown good restraint I suppose with England then, one of the things that I've been trying to work out here is why has it come undone? Why has it all come tumbling down so swiftly off the back of a year where we were rightly giving them praise? Is it that teams have looked at what England do and realised there's quite an easy way to get the better of them, which is obviously win the aerial and then stretch them from sideline to sideline?

33:21Stuart Barnes: well the width is important and the fact that england's kicking game hasn't hasn't worked they kick so much uh box kicks again on saturday and they're just not winning any of them

33:32Alfie Reynolds: and they didn't kick it loads like the stat the numbers of kicks and things actually hasn't been as high as i think people might suspect they've been losing a lot of those aerials they're not

33:40Stuart Barnes: they're not winning any of them and even when they go for them they go high it's become a 50 50 now You pick Freddie Stewart at full-back in an era now when he can't be protected. And his statistics of takes, I think he was 87 % last season. He's under 70 % now. These are figures you say, well, if those are his stats, why are you picking him? Especially when England are a stats-driven team. But why are they losing? I'll say it again. These other teams have got into their game plans. and England can't play when teams pick the lock of the game plan and there's complacency. Ellis Genge made the point, didn't he, Elgin, saying after beating Wales 48-10, we were a bit complacent.

34:27Stuart Barnes: Now, that is an indictment, again, of management psychologically because Wales have been on the most terrible trot of not just results but performances. England were brilliant in Cardiff when they beat them 68-14 in 2025. They were pretty good in Twickenham And for them to go out to travel to Edinburgh thinking they're the bee's knees because of beating Wales 48-10, you know, something is amiss in terms of that England are overconfident, they're overcoached, they're over everything.

34:58Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, I'd be really interested to know from England, I think Steve Brothwick has spoken about this in the way in which they still want to attack. But he used to speak about wanting to be this fast ball movement team. And I feel like we haven't seen that for ages. Do you remember two years ago when they did beat Ireland at Twickenham and that first try England scored when Ireland kicked, Furbank ran it back, they shifted it to the left. It ended up with Ollie Lawrence scoring in the corner. It feels like we haven't seen anything like that from them for quite a while.

35:25Elgan Alderman: Yeah, and I think back to some of those performances and I think that they had someone like, well, George Furbank at fullback, didn't they? And I'm sure there'll be some clamour for when he's ready to get someone like him a ball playing 15 back in. there'll probably be clamour for maybe Max Ajomo and Oli Lawrence to combine and do their Bath partnership in the centres as well. I think Steve Borthwick has received a lot of credit for his for some quite bold selection decisions in the past and we did see it again I suppose last weekend you know taking off two players before half time is the type of thing that is quite a bold thing to do to admit that.

36:00Elgan Alderman: We've seen that the selection of Henry Arundel on the wing as well is quite an exciting selection, but Barnsley, you'll be able to comment on this as well, that for Bath, it sometimes looks like he's a bit of a passenger out wide, doesn't it? And England certainly haven't figured out how best to get an exciting talent like him out wide involved in the game either, whether it's in the middle of the field roaming around or releasing him in space out wide either.

36:23Stuart Barnes: No, I mean, I go back to the early career of Damian McKenzie. I watched him when he was a youngster in New Zealand and he was playing for the Maoris and he was a brilliant talent, but he couldn't quite work out, how to dominate the game and it took a long time for the All Blacks to actually get him functioning England with Arundel are really struggling I don't think Arundel I don't think it's the easiest aspect of his game I felt that in the third and fourth playoff game in the World Cup against Argentina it was partly the fact it was as if he didn't know the other 14 guys on the pitch but he stood on the touchline and he does for Bath a bit but having said that we are in an era where wide men are encouraged to stand on the touchline.

37:04Stuart Barnes: So he's there waiting, and it's like, you know, he's waiting for Goddard almost. It's just this weird thing, thinking, what are you doing? Henry Pollock spent more time standing on the wing, and this is not a criticism of Pollock. It's an indictment of England. England thought, this guy is a brilliant runner, he's powerful. So, you know, he hit one breakdown, then he flies off to the right wing or to the left wing, And everyone was saying, cool, Ireland did a number on England at the breakdown. Well, of course they did, because England were basically playing a man light at the breakdown all the time.

37:39Stuart Barnes: So the pressure on people like Ben Earle to really come up with the goods and curry were huge, because Ireland had back rowers in the second row, and they were playing close to the breakdown. England had three open sides, and one of them wasn't involved in the breakdown. that is not an indictment of Pollock it is an indictment of England almost trying to be too clever

38:01Alfie Reynolds: yeah when I looked at the selections and you compared the two packs I thought England had a back row that was there to get to the breakdown first like it was a speedy fast athletic back row but it was Tygburn, Caelan, Doris and those boys that had the better of it there Mark also emailed us and he said I was at the England game and speaking as a Newcastle Red Bulls supporter the experience was similar to a Red Bulls game in that the opposition seems superior in every facet and any chance of a victory disappears early in the first half. I thought England had turned a corner and these soul-destroying defeats were behind us, but it seems not.

38:36Alfie Reynolds: The last England game I saw live was the harrowing defeat to France. I was meant to go to Italy game last year, but got stuck in Newcastle Airport. I regretted there weren't any issues for my flight. This time, I can't see England winning again for a while, which gets us on to round four, Italy-England. I mean, I said to Will and Charlie at Twickenham on Saturday, Elgin, are Italy now favourites for this? And they both said, no, the weight of history, England have never lost to them. But based upon the two performances we've seen from England, plus the improving Italy we're witnessing, what do you reckon?

39:08Alfie Reynolds: How do you see the balance of power ahead of that game?

39:11Elgan Alderman: I still think England are narrow one score favourites just because we, I know it's a different era of rugby. these are different teams but we've been here before where Italy have we've gone into this match and thought I think Italy could could just about be favourites here and England always found a way of doing it and and that's why I think if they did lose then suddenly we would then be in a situation where people are considering right what on earth is going on here because historic defeats by Italy are results that do lead to reckonings for careers of players and coaches alike.

39:46Stuart Barnes: I don't think they should this time, by the way. Razio Rasmus made the point in the autumn Italy of fast improving, and they are fast improving, and I thought in many ways they were excellent. Their set piece, their scrum in particular, is very powerful and it's going to trouble England, and historically, if England's scrum is under pressure, scrum half goes, the half-back link goes, then we've got a real issue. As I said, Monday's paper, imagine Italy beating England. We've always sort of, what you said, Will and Alex, sort of, you go back through history. It can't happen. But looking back to the past is not the smart way to looking forward to the next game.

40:30Stuart Barnes: And it's in Rome. Italy will have no, they'll have no mental demons, will they? They'll believe they can win this one. I think they'll go into this game thinking they will win. and that may be the first time we've ever been in that scenario. So Steve Borthwick, who has not been able to get his players in the right mental state for the last two, he's got a big issue because Italy are going to be up for this one, irrelevant of what happened to France. England wouldn't have done any better than 33-8 on current form. So if I was a bookmaker, I would be thinking long and hard before I made the odds here.

41:08Stuart Barnes: I think it's tight.

41:08Elgan Alderman: Barnsley is completely right to highlight how good Italy have been the last two rounds like we say 33-8 but they were in that game they've been in all three games one decision goes differently from the TMO in that Ireland game and they would have been what seven points up and would have had the wind beneath their sails so that was such a close game obviously beat Scotland in the first round what I think why it would be so momentous were this result to finally happen because italy have never beaten england is just what it would do in the minds of the supporters who as we've talked about have already not checked out but they're already catastrophizing about what's happening because england tends to be and i've used this phrase before flat track bullies they don't lose to the you know the smaller nations very often in the history of their game that's why the defeat by fiji in that world cup warm-up felt so galling for it to finally happen because Fiji actually beat them.

42:04Elgan Alderman: Other teams have lost to Fiji before, so they're not quite surprised when it happens, when, you know, thinking about Wales and other teams. But when it happens to England, the response is that much larger because they tend to always find a way to win those games against the smaller nations that they're not expected to. That's why, even if in a rugby perspective, it wouldn't be that much of a shock if Italy wins sort of culturally and in the minds of England fans, it would be a real low point.

42:28Stuart Barnes: Charlton horse racing has come in, so every now and again I think about bookmaking. And you look at form lines. You know, if you don't look at form lines, you lose a lot of money when you go racing for a few days. Look at the form lines of Italy, England at the moment. Italy beat Scotland. Scotland flattened England. Italy went to Dublin and, as Elgin rightly said, were quite close to a shock result. Close. England, they played Ireland, got absolutely flattened. On the form lines, Italy are half a stone better than England, to use a horse analogy. There are a lot of points on that. Now, it isn't that straightforward because Italy have got to get it into their heads that they can win.

43:10Stuart Barnes: A lot of this is going to be on their management convincing them. If that can be done with a scrum and a maturity in their half-back decision-making and a real spike in their backline, Italy have a proper chance of beating England.

43:26Alfie Reynolds: Final question on England. Daniel on Twitter asked, is it the end of Stuart? What do we think in terms of personnel and the sort of changes we might see from Steve Borthwick?

43:36Elgan Alderman: I think he probably shouldn't be in the 23 for the Italy game. I know they should have more of a ball playing 15. Furbank might come back. He's been returning from injury, hasn't he? Yeah, I think he would be the man. And then obviously you're unlikely to have an out-and-out fullback on the bench. So therefore if Stewart doesn't start, he's unlikely to be on the bench.

43:53Alfie Reynolds: Can I just ask as well, Barnsley, about George Ford? Because there's been a lot of chat about Ford off the back of the island. I'm not saying that his international career is over by any stretch, but as a former fly-half yourself.

44:05Stuart Barnes: Well, George Ford was the darling, wasn't he, of England in that 12-match run from the Argentina game onwards. And with some reason, he played beautifully. I've been disappointed with George Ford, especially in Scotland, where I thought he explained to us why England kicked and why it wasn't aimless, and then went and gave Scotland the ball. He told Scotland what they were going to do. I don't think he's played that badly. But of course, the two kicks that didn't find touch, that magnifies it. 80 ,000 people having a good nature, admittedly, but jeering at him when he finds touch. It puts him under pressure.

44:44Stuart Barnes: But I still think Steve Borthwick really needs someone with an experienced and astute rugby brain. what they don't want to do is go to Rome and say okay we're not going to kick everything sorry we're not going to kick quite we're not going to kick as much in fact we're not going to kick at all and they lose all shape they've got to have a shape because what England want to do England's idea is to get territory, they kept territory by kicking long, they're kicking high and that's not smart at the moment so they kick long, they then try and use their chasers to force the pressure, they force the kicks back and then they hit on the counter it's what South Africa do with a brilliant back three it's why your comment about uh Furbank is absolutely right in that Ireland game they had Faye Woboso on the pitch as well alongside Furbank they had blokes who were just electric when Ireland were forced to kick and they didn't kick well England carved them up when you play Freddie Stewart you can get squeezed territorially by the boot of Ford and and the England pack but you can boot the ball 50 metres and it might not be a great kick and he won't punish you that's part of the jigsaw and it worries me that england don't see to to play the territorial pressure game you have to have a back three who are counter attackers and it makes you think do they understand even what they're trying to do it's a question mark it's a real worry so uh england make the trip to rome in round four

46:16Alfie Reynolds: Or elsewhere, Ireland-Wales, Scotland-France. So really good weekends for Ireland and Scotland, as we've said already. Who's more in the title mix? I know France are way out in front as the favourites, but between Ireland and their recent history or Scotland and the potential of that team, who do you view as a more serious contender for the title, if you had to say someone other than the French?

46:40Elgan Alderman: I think that Ireland are... There is almost no part of me that expects Wales to be Ireland on a Friday night in Dublin. For all their improvements in that Scotland game, there's no part of me that expects that happen on that Friday night on March 6th. So we're looking at Ireland going into that final round, played 4-1-3. Scotland, like I say, I do think that will be a huge test for France, but I still think France should win. So then Scotland will be going into that final round, won two out of four. but then before the tournament I did back Scotland to win that final game in Dublin so we could have a situation where they both won three at the end of it but where Ireland are in the title hunt going into it.

47:20Elgan Alderman: Barnsley?

47:21Stuart Barnes: I think Ireland are in the better position I think Ireland played top class game at Twickenham and that's going to put them in good stead for the rest of the tournament and Scotland got away with that and like I said earlier on this podcast that will really helped them because they were complacent and they pulled it off but I think when all is said and done France are probably right now a little bit clearer the rest of the world as second best team and I think that will show and I think they will go into the England game hunting the grand slam when funnily enough we might see an England team with the pressure off in a weird way

48:00Alfie Reynolds: Well, in a way, in a sense, yeah. On France, Will actually posed this question on WhatsApp. Are we about to see France win a Grand Slam in kind of third gear? It's a good question.

48:13Elgan Alderman: I think they were higher than third gear for that first round against Ireland, weren't they? Then they had, obviously, the Wales game, which just takes on a whole tenor of its own because of the crowd, because of the problems in Welsh rugby. And they knew that they could just have fun for 80 minutes, and they did. They were very exciting. The Italy game, yeah, they weren't great. We talked about, you know, why having Toma Ramos at 10 kind of affected them. But they've still got, like I say, Scotland at Murrayfield. that is a really appetising, challenging fixture where they will have to be on the top of their game.

48:49Elgan Alderman: And then to go for a Grand Slam, even if it's at home to an England team with all these question marks over them, I think they have gone higher than third gear, haven't they? Certainly in that first round. I think we forget going into that game, it wasn't guaranteed that we thought France would win, beat Ireland by 22 points. And they were 29-0 up at one stage, weren't they? They absolutely blitzed them in those first 50 minutes.

49:14Stuart Barnes: Six Nations is very different in a studio podcast into being out on the pitch. Shockingly. France were outstanding for much of that match against Ireland. And France might need to be, because Scotland have shown a capacity to be outstanding themselves at home. And they will play France, and they will cast themselves into the role of underdogs, and they will be very dangerous. And even if France win that, you know we can slate England all we like but England have got a big old pack and England can go there and we've had three rounds of the six nations and if we aren't sane enough to have seen the shocks we didn't see coming before if we're not now it's over you know you you cannot dismiss England no matter how poor they've been producing a big one-off game and you say well how are they going to do that I have no bloody idea how they're going to do that but that's the beauty of sport Things just happen from nowhere.

50:11Alfie Reynolds: And that is the one thing I would say as well about France, who look supreme at the moment, easily, easily have looked the best team in this championship. But I suppose they haven't yet found themselves in a game where you really feel like they're going to lose. They haven't been put under that kind of pressure. Now, I think if they are, I think they have the weapons and the tools to answer those questions. But you just never know. And as you say, so far, these first three rounds of this Six Nations have taught us that you just never know on any given weekend.

50:40Elgan Alderman: Yeah, I alluded to it last week about how there haven't been many Grand Slams in history where you've wiped the floor with everyone. When I was talking about England in the 1990s and 1920s, I forgot to mention the reason I was looking into it at the time was because the Ireland Grand Slam of three years ago, they didn't yield any losing bonus points. They got four try scoring bonus points, and only in the Scotland game did they miss out on the four try bonus points. So as recently as three years ago, we had Ireland achieving one of the most dominant Grand Slams there has ever been in the history of when it was four teams, five teams or six teams.

51:16Elgan Alderman: So if France do wipe the floor with Scotland at Murrayfield, wipe the floor with England at Paris, then we would be looking at it as perhaps the most dominant Grand Slam there has ever been in this championship. What that tells us is that there is a very strong likelihood that they will have to battle through one of the two games to come.

51:34Alfie Reynolds: good stuff well it is set up nicely fallow week this week we will then be back with you next monday to fully build up to round four we'll also be in rome for that italy england game barnsey back on the wiltshire express today hopefully on time like it was on the way out here yeah i might

51:51Stuart Barnes: see a mate of mine called trotsky for a quick beer before i go and then i shall be home and pondering round four of the six nations and you're going to be back with us next monday as well i am back next monday on the wiltshire express excellent good stuff look forward to it elgin what does your

52:04Elgan Alderman: week look like St David's Day even song usual Wednesday night entertainment and then no which will which will be good fun and then looking forward to round four I'll be up at Murrayfield for that Scotland France game very much looking forward to that

52:18Alfie Reynolds: could be championship I mean we say every weekend but could be championship defining that absolutely I'm fully expecting it to be a belter yeah absolutely thank you once again to all of you that got in touch and sent us an email if you want to do that then the email address is the ruck at the times dot co dot uk thank you for listening this has been the ruck the Journalists' Rugby Podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

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