Steven Kitshoff: Life threatening injury, France vs Springboks and bomb squad beer

0:15Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. We are in studio following the opening weekend of November Internationals. Another pack fixture list coming up this weekend. So as always, lots to get into. I'm Alfie Reynolds, Will Kelleher, back alongside me. How are we doing, Will? This is quite fun, isn't it? We're in a nice, shiny new studio with Ruck branding around. You'll see videos come out about this. This is really fun, isn't it? Yep. Go on Will's socials to see the studio. It looks all quite professional and slick in it, doesn't it? Look at us growing up.

0:46Alfie: Yeah, exactly. It's taken us long enough. That's what everyone will be thinking. Also, back on the pod, to mark such a momentous occasion, it is the people's favourite, Owen Slot.

0:55Owen Slot: Come on, guys. You can't say that. Why not? I don't know what to say. I was just saying to Will beforehand, I listened to the excellent Ruck post-game, and at the end of it, Will and Alex were saying that they've got an exciting new guest coming on Monday. Oh, that's so sweet. But anyway. Shall we reveal who the guest is? People have probably read the headlines.

1:15Alfie: It's not me, guys. You are one exciting guest, Slotty. But coming up on the pod, we have the double World Cup winner, Stephen Kitsoff, is going to be chatting to us, Will, which is going to be good fun. The Spicy Plum, as he's nicknamed, apparently, because of his ginger hair. amazing career obviously 83 caps 2 World Cup wins all sorts else besides but also a horrible story incredible retirement because about this time last year he popped his neck in a scrum and as he will explain had a horrendous neck injury and then had to retire in February this year so lots to talk to him about and particularly because it's France, South Africa this Saturday which is definitely the best of the Autumn Nations games coming and was such an epic that both of you guys were at the Stade of France in 2023.

2:03I missed it. It's just you weren't there. One of the great weekends.

2:06Owen Slot: Apparently England-Argentina was really... No, it was Wales-Argentina and England-Fiji, wasn't it? Which they're both pretty good, but those ones in Paris were ridiculous. I can't even remember who played who. Down in Marseille.

2:18Alfie: We were just focused on the good games, weren't we, Slotty? Yeah, so Stephen Kittsoff, a chat with him coming up later on in the pod. We'll also look ahead to next weekend, in particular, that France-Springbroke game, Scotland also playing the All Blacks, and of course, England hosting Fiji. To start off though, lads, Slotter, you've already mentioned it, but if people want to go back and hear mine, Will and Alex's immediate thoughts after the England-Australia game, then that ruck is already in your feed. It came out on Saturday night from Twickenham. Something you mentioned in that episode, Will, was that, well, we spoke about it generally, didn't we, that Twickenham, the game was a bit underwhelming, the atmosphere was a bit flat.

2:53Alfie: It felt like that before the game and the match that transpired probably didn't do too much to improve it you then whatsapped when the Ireland New Zealand game was going on again saying this feels just a bit clunky and not very good and and Slotty you've been writing about it as well the headline in your piece teams undercooked tests demeaned but this is rugby's new reality is this a bit of an unfortunate theme from the opening weekend of

3:16Owen Slot: the out of window November internationals yeah I guess I guess so I suppose some people would go you're just looking at the negative or something I wonder if maybe I just showed my age and I'm really young and should just grow up a bit because I came to Twickenham I kind of felt more excited about a new campaign than I had done for quite a long time and if I was a bit wiser then I'd have probably had gone oh hang on a sec the weather doesn't look great they haven't played for a while don't get ahead of yourself and I kind of think that's what we saw the more that the game is in hindsight, the more I'm seeing how positive England were or how positive their sets of improvement were.

4:01Owen Slot: But the point that Will said about it being quiet at Twickenham, that was kind of weird. I can't really explain that. I mean, it was quiet right from the start. It wasn't like 20 highballs had turned the crowd off or they'd all gone to the bar or something. It was right from the start. It was quiet.

4:20Alfie: But do you think we should know this by now? I think the All Blacks game will be different because it's the All Blacks. If the Springboks were coming to town this November, it would be different. If it was Ireland or France, Scotland probably in the Six Nations. But I don't know, I think maybe with the Wallabies, because we knew it wasn't a full-strength Wallabies, I think Twickenham is often a reflection of the game, partly the game that you see, but also partly the opposition. I think Twickenham will be bang up for it when the All Blacks turn up in two weeks' time. but this is often the case when other nations are playing.

4:51I guess, without it sounding too navel-gazing, there was an element of it, I think, that maybe people didn't really know it was coming or was happening. Obviously, it was a sold-out crowd. Lots of people had bought tickets. It was England and Australia. People sort of knew about it. But to me, it didn't feel like a massive build-up to a huge Test match on Saturday. And we're in the middle of it all week, speaking to Australia some days, speaking to England other days. and we're the ones largely who drive all these narratives and drive the hype for these games because we're talking about it on podcasts, writing about it and it felt like it was sort of going without trace in the sporting week maybe until Saturday.

5:29Alfie: I don't know if I would have said that in the build up to it. I don't know if my WhatsApps with mates and stuff were lighting up being like what's England and Australia going to be like this weekend whereas as you said if it was a Six Nations Saturday or an All Black Saturday maybe a bit different. And then I think the wider bit of it I think was that Ireland, New Zealand was obviously the sort of like marquee fixture on the Saturday night but I don't know it's I think some of it it's and I'm not saying this is TNT Sports's fault I'm saying it was a it was just a bit of a shoddy production of the whole event that and I don't really know why necessarily but for example I was watching that game and you couldn't hear the hucker the microphones were just in the wrong place for and then you pan out and all the Chicago Bears NFL markers are still obviously on the field and so actually when they were taking a line at it they were like oh it looks like they're on the wrong line oh no that's where the NFL pitch starts and the rugby pitch is further away and then it was just the shots and everything looked great it looked cool that it was full in Chicago but then you had the TMO issue of the Tigeburn tackle on Bowden Barrett which took them several minutes to get to the point where they actually saw a replay and when they did they had to go off the pitch and look at it in what looked like a briefcase on an iPad because the screens weren't good enough and you just sort of thought all of that took away from what could have been a really great game and added to that the game itself I thought was really clunky and low quality from both sides and we thought that Ireland were going to be rusty because they hadn't played and lots of them hadn't played since the Lions at all and but we expected maybe a bit more from New Zealand who are incredibly incredibly sloppy until the final quarter where they put together a couple of nice plays and won that game so maybe it was just a sort of general disappointment that we on paper looked like we were going to get two belters and we sort of didn't and that's where I hope that the next month picks up and things like France, South Africa, you go, that was the game we wanted it to be.

7:18Alfie: It was a bit of a clunky start to the autumn. I think it maybe gets me on to talking about Scotland as well, because one of the things that when I was reflecting upon the weekend that struck me is we all want more matches between tier one and tier two countries. But then I've seen a lot of people quite justifiably probably point out that what was the point in Scotland playing the USA? Totally. And that scoreline, what have Scotland taken out of it? I don't know it's an interesting juxtaposition isn't it really

7:43Owen Slot: USA are about tier 7 at the moment aren't they isn't there a wider point here because the two things we're talking about Ireland and New Zealand in Chicago and the USA national team getting beaten 85-0 by Scotland the USA issue is huge here because they've got a home World Cup in 2031 and in their sort of pitch for that World Cup the top nations and world rugby started off by going we're going to break America and then slowly that's changed to well america's a good place to play the games but we're not necessarily talking about breaking america now we're going to get broken by america yeah well it's it's kind of they've gone from saying we're going to help a legacy project in america for american rugby to now going oh it's a great commercial opportunity to play our matches in america make money for ourselves which is a it's an obvious pivot and that's the reason why Ireland played New Zealand in Chicago was to make money wasn't it and that's fine everyone needs to make some cash and it was billed as the rematch from 2016 and had a sponsor attached to it and everything else so all good but I think that the USA what I think is disappointing is that USA are the best at producing sport aren't they like you watch the NFL and all of that stuff and then the World Series was on over last week or so and it's all brilliant it's incredibly well put together and then you watch a rugby game in America and it's really sloppy and shoddy and it looks like they hadn't taken any care over it.

9:06They didn't have a nice studio like us, did they?

9:09Owen Slot: That's what they're missing. They'll be watching this going, this is where we messed up, guys. And look, World Rugby will probably say by the time it's the 2031 World Cup, we as World Rugby will have the production and we'll have the angles and we'll have the bunker and we'll do it all properly. So it should be fine. But I think it's a worry that on the field, the USA national team are desperately terrible and sort of off the field there when they have been given a game that should be brilliant they make it worse by the production of it which isn't helpful when you're trying to say look how excited we're going to be about the 2031 world cup over there yeah well you're not the only one to have

9:45Alfie: seen point towards the the production of that game in terms of the match itself it hasn't done much has it for those in the camp of this is an aging island side that are in decline do you think yeah well yeah i mean look they i guess it went sort of to how people predicted didn't they that ireland were a bit rusty and therefore new zealand had more in the final quarter but new zealand weren't that good so you sort of thought oh well there was an opportunity there i think i think i'd like to talk a little bit about the the red slash 20 minute yeah there's been a lot of fallout to this so the tigburn red card that i think the majority of people i've seen it's it's one of those they're saying game's gone essentially how is it a red card i think if you go through the framework you can understand why it was given as a red card it's maybe whether they could have found some mitigation for it not to be a 20 minute whether it's kind of a passive tackle that sort of thing yeah so so i wasn't really that worried that it was a 20 minute red card but again maybe this was part of the production of it but i thought they had given him a full red because of how it was sort of shown to us on the tv but he gave a a yellow with a uh bunker the crossed arm thing and then the commentary was all about a red card are they gonna have to play 70 minutes without him and i was like well hang on i thought the bunker wasn't allowed to upgrade it to a full fat red but obviously that was right it was a 20 minute red but it got that was confusing anyway separate point but the tackle itself in my view he was kind of banged to rights by not even attempting a tackle and he might have been shocked that barrett was there and didn't have time to sort of open his arms and try and wrap but he was crossing his arms and leading with a shoulder and if that hits someone in the head you can't give him a penalty only for that i don't know

11:28Owen Slot: isn't the point about about that um tag burn 20 minute red that it showed that 20 minute reds really make sense yeah if that had been a full game red then then that was the game over on in the third minute well it was a 20 minute red in those 20 minutes island actually won those 20 minutes by three points in there i think i'm right saying that yeah and and then and then they're back to full strength and we had a an exciting game we didn't know who was going to win until the last 12 minutes or something so so someone's been penalized for a bad tackle and the game's not been ruined so in my opinion it kind of worked out okay it was one of those for me that

12:06Alfie: it just didn't almost feel right in a way as i said if you go through the framework and as you say wasn't enough force you mean like as it didn't look very red card and the reason it was a red card is because it was always illegal but even then you look at it and say yeah okay he's not making a tackle there's no rap he's upright when you do the checklist but you also just look at it and say yeah but come on i tell you what's an interesting new twist on this is

12:29Owen Slot: the way bowden barrett comes out after oh i hardly felt it you and that was that was really harsh I think he actually went further and said, I will, if he needs me to, I'll tell the disciplinary man. That's a bit like Tom Willis did for Luke Cowan Dickey the other week, where he said, oh, he didn't hit me in the head. And it's funny that, isn't it? Because I thought with that one, which is two England players, albeit Tom Willis we know now doesn't play for England, but I thought, oh, that's an interesting case, isn't it? Because is there a bit of an honour among thieves thing of like, it did hit me in the head, but I'll say it didn't.

13:03Owen Slot: What if the referee had asked Bowdoin Barrett at the time? Was that a bad tackle? It was fine. Let him stay on. But I'm interested about that because I wonder, it's almost like that sort of, maybe it's the wrong phrase, but like player a murder kind of thing of like, oh, well, we all know what the game's like and if he's going to get a four-match ban for that, I don't really feel that's right. It did hit me in the head, but I'm going to say it didn't because I know that'll help get him off. Good psychology, Will. I think you're probably quite on the right track. Maybe he was just being a decent bloke and I'm overthinking it.

13:33Possibly, though. But with the 20-minute thing as well, I think there's still, and I totally agree that I think now that it's here and we've seen a good example of it there, you go, oh, well, that's definitely better than sending him off straight away full red like the 23 World Cup final, Sam Kane won. But I feel like World Rugby or the people who are introducing this to these tournaments need to explain the levelling a bit clearer because they do when everyone's not looking and then more millions of people come and watch and go why it's been sent off and you go no so there's a sending off which is sort of up here then there's a 20 minute which is there which is kind of like the clumsy mistake and then there's a yellow which is oh not that bad but 10 minutes because that's exactly the reaction everyone sees a red card and they go what a red card for that yeah but it's like no no there's like a punching gouging spitting red card.

14:27Which doesn't happen.

14:27Alfie: Pretty much doesn't happen. And now there's this kind of like unacceptable mistake level and then we've got this yellow card thing which everyone has always known about.

14:36Owen Slot: Bowden Barrett's pretty incredible still, isn't he? He's 34 years old. He's been doing this for like 12 years. I mean, he still looks ludicrously young and fresh and handsome and all those things he's saying about people like that. He's got a full head of hair, is what I was saying. No, I'm not saying that, but that annoys me too. Well, I did a piece, well lots of us we last week had to pick who do you think the best ever team is and you you guys who are a bit older than us picked the hipster choice of the 96 all blacks and us young pups me and alex picked the 2011-15 obvious one but bowden barrett was the bench guy in that 15 world cup 10 years ago and look at him now he's still obviously the all blacks fly half he's a remarkable he's

15:19Alfie: extraordinary i still the all i'm still working out the all blacks as well because they obviously aren't as good a team they are definitely more beatable than they have been but they still just have some unbelievable players that are capable and i think that's almost to me it felt like that's what the the game against ireland came down to is they just had players that were game breaking moments game breaking moments the x-factor players that were able to win them the game uh so we got a few emails following the the pod at twickenham uh brian who is a brit now living in california big rugby fan has given us some suggestions for england's bomb squad yes because we were talking about this uh nothing's quite sticking yet so we've got the hench bench the dogs pollocks which i did quite enjoy but it does mean that pollock has to be on the bench every single time uh borthos marauders i'm not sure we've got anything yet that's a bit too difficult to say quickly isn't it borthos marauders not sure that's going to catch on i'm all in with the with the dogs pollocks yeah i do like that one we also had charles colleague from a rival at the tell oh Telegraph.

16:18Alfie: He said the POM Squad. POM Squad, yeah. He's emailed in. He's emailed the Ruck at the Times.co.uk. Charles Richardson from the Telegraph is emailing the Times. I hope he hasn't told his bosses that. That's so nice, isn't it? Yeah, well, as I say... POM Squad, though, yeah. Yeah, nothing quite sticking yet. We'll have to ask Stephen Kitshoff when we speak to him in just a moment. A couple of others. Nick emailed and said two points he wanted to raise. Firstly, to yours, Will, where you said on the pod on Saturday that England are eight years behind the Springboks, almost copying what the Springboks were doing eight years ago, rather than finding their own English identity, I suppose, in particular in regards to the bench.

16:56Alfie: He said that, Nick, agree with you, thought it was a really good point. And he says, if we really want to innovate and disrupt, now this is pretty bold, I think, Nick, he says, play Earl at 12 and Pollock on the wing against the All Blacks. Why not do it against the best team we play this autumn? I mean, that's really going kind of chips in, middle of the table, all in, isn't it? Go for it, yeah. I can't see it. No, I appreciate it. Well, so on that front, so we're recording this Monday morning as usual, and one thing that Steve Ball did suggest in the Bowls Twickenham on Saturday night was that the Earl at 12 plan is ready to rock.

17:28Alfie: I mean, he said that a few times, didn't he, last week? And he said it's certainly something I'm considering for this week. So if you see Ben Earl named at 12, firstly, if you're in the sort of Chippenden Bath area, then watch out for Stuart Barnes going celebrating down the street, having written about that for about four years. But that would be fascinating, wouldn't it? It would be Stuart Barnes, and I know he wouldn't like this comparison. That would be Barnesy's Nigel Farage moment, wouldn't it? You all laughed at me. You're not laughing now, are you? If Ben Earl gets picked at 12. Final email as well from Simon, who is an Englishman in Melbourne.

17:58Alfie: He said, good to get a result to kick off the autumn, but we must kick on performance and attack-wise. Otherwise, we're wasting the talents of Lee Blackett, the Saints contingent, and the likes of Faye Waboso. So I appreciate to all of you that emailed us. Just a reminder, the ruck at the times.co.uk is how you can get in touch. Right, next up, let's have a chat to the double World Cup winner, Springbok legend, Stephen Kitsoff.

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18:42Alfie: well Stephen great to see you thank you so much for joining us today on the ruck how are you where do we find you in the world yeah thanks lads currently back in Cape Town so yeah it's uh weather is turning out to be much more beautiful uh compared to all my mates sitting there in London so yeah very very stoked so summer's around the corner yeah the part of the part of the time of the year where your weather gets better and ours starts getting worse and we're well into the November internationals how how are you Stephen because it I would imagine has been a really turbulent 12 months with the injury you sustained last year announcing your retirement at the start of this year yeah um I must say it's a bit of a roller coaster uh getting used to a bit of a different life like normally prepping for rugby games and and going through a week of training now it's trying to build my own schedule and and trying to find find my feet in the corporate space so but yeah otherwise I'm actually doing very well very very happy and and keeping myself busy.

19:39Stephen can you explain to us take us back 12 months or so what what happened it was a curry cup western province against Greek was was it and in a scrum and you had an issue with your neck? Yeah so I was coming back from a from a knee injury that I hurt during a Ulster game during the championship or EPCR so came back from a knee injury and was trying to get fit for for springbok selection and uh went through the entire process re-hab process for the knee started pushing myself in games and then to play a couple of curry cup games to get fit in a bit of battle hard and for for springbok rugby and then in a in a curry cup game like a warm-up game i just felt a pop pop in my neck didn't think much of it and then carried on playing and then the monday after the after the game i found out that i dislocated the c1 vertebra so yeah um Had a fusion done, got advice from the specialist not to carry on playing rugby and then, yeah, called it in February.

20:35That's incredibly scary, isn't it? How did it feel during the game? Did you feel like it was incredibly serious straight away? To be honest, not. I didn't have much pain when it happened. So I could just feel like my neck became stiffer and stiffer as the game went on. uh the sun or the saturday and the sunday afterwards was was quite intense uh had very limited movement so then i started feeling like there's a bit there's a bit of an issue and then only by the monday i found out how serious it was uh initial initial scans didn't pick up anything uh initial x-rays didn't show anything was broken so it's only when i when i did a prone test i found out that there was some serious damage yeah so what was the extent of the damage i've read that as you said it was that c1 c2 vertebrae and it was incredibly close to being even scarier for you yeah it was um so it was what i guess they called the hangman injury so it was like the c1 dislocated and like the the ligaments that help with head rotation and movement uh actually came loose and so it's moved closer to the to the spinal cord and that was what was so dangerous so if it nipped there or if it touched the the spinal cord in that area like your lungs just just collapse and you stop breathing and that was what the the real concern was from the specialist so immediately pulled me from any sort of training immediately pulled me like put me in a brace and said let's just take it easy for for a couple of weeks and then we'll reassess waited about eight weeks there was no change and then then had to go for for the fusion wow blimey so What was that like for you and the family and everything else to suddenly have the rug pulled from underneath you like that?

22:18It was basically that. I was still very, very keen and almost just got back into it after a long injury. I was very keen to get back with the Springboks. I just rejoined the Stormers, and so I was excited about the next couple of years. I was looking forward to actually being involved with the Cape Town side again, playing some rugby for the Stormers, and then within a couple of weeks of being back, the rug just gets pulled underneath me so it was a bit of a it was a tough pull to swallow emotionally it was uh because rugby was the only thing i've i've done and that i knew so having my career pulled pulled out underneath me and and almost trying to think what's what's next was was a bit of a challenge but luckily we had the the businesses that was already up and running and then from there just had to make a bit of a mindset change and then went straight into that

23:08Alfie: is that something that you feel like you've been able to do quite smoothly steven so i suppose we all know that rugby is dangerous but i'm not sure anyone quite expects to be faced and confronted with that quite in the way that you were so how has that whole process been from the injury to the surgery to then getting the advice to give up playing to actually give up playing that whole process how have you how have you found that it was it was it was tough um it was a lot of like thinking and back and forth because when i initially spoke to the surgeon he he did he did say listen here there is getting the operation done uh there is a possibility you can get back on the field but it would be very dangerous like you could put other the rest of your spine in in real trouble so uh you can put yourself in at real risk and so i had to go back and forth and i had a lot of conversations with with the missus a couple of ex-ruggy players that also had like neck fusions done and uh other type of spinal spinal injuries um spoke to those guys and most of the advice i've gotten was to like it's not worth it because the decision basically came down to either do i try and play another two or three years of rugby and maybe risk everything and never be able to walk again or do i close that chapter start something new and actually have a healthier life going forward so that's basically where the the conversation came down to and it became it became quite an easy easy decision um and then from there transitioning from like a full-time rugby player and identifying as a rugby player and then going into this business world and trying to build these companies and work in the corporate space and going to super sport to do punditry, that was a completely new learning curve for me.

24:47So I put a lot of effort and time into it and slowly started to find my feet. So yeah, where I'm currently now, like a year has gone by since the operation, I'm actually starting to find my feet in this new space and really starting to enjoy the challenges and and the the things that come with running running a couple of businesses and and doing uh work for for tv just the last one on on the injury itself steven what effect does it have on you now and what was the kind of worst case scenario of what might have happened if if it had been worse uh yeah so worst case probably would have been uh death but no so like real nerve nerve damage not being able to use limbs or loss of movement um but yeah for me now it's like luckily i'm pretty pain free uh still rotation wise a bit of an issue so um but very limited rotation uh head movement so that is that is the one thing but otherwise i'm actually i'm actually feeling all right uh it's a bit of a annoyance in the winter when it gets cold but otherwise otherwise I'm strong.

25:51It clunk away does it in the back of your neck? There's a bit of movement like it's something I need to get fixed but there's a bit of movement when the screws the screws clip each other so it's a bit of an annoying thing. Blimey. Yeah but I'll get that fixed and then yeah hopefully in a couple of weeks that sensation goes away and

26:15Alfie: then back to normal how have you found still being in touch with rugby Stephen you mentioned the supersport stuff you've been doing some punditry have you quite enjoyed still having that connection to the game or has it been a struggle because you're not involved in the way you once were no big time yes I'm really enjoying the the punditry work and working with supersport I think just the ability to talk about rugby and like give my honest opinion does help a lot with the closure I think it's still being involved is pretty special. Yeah, so really loving it. And it's giving me a bit of a different, like makes me look at the game a bit differently compared to when I was playing.

26:55It was very technical while I was playing, very in the moment. Like the only thing I was thinking about was my job. But now doing some work for Supersport and on the Pundity side, it was having like a global view or like a broader view of the game and what's happening. So I'm really enjoying that. And it has brought me a little bit of like peace and thing. Like listening, I can still be involved with the game without being batted and bruised on a Sunday morning. We'd love to talk to you about the France game this weekend for the box, which is looking epic already. And like that, the rerun of the quarterfinal from 2023.

27:34With your punditry hat on now, how are you looking at it? and how different is that from how you would have looked at it for that quarterfinal? Yeah, I think probably the biggest thing that I would say the French especially would bring to this game is a bit of like a vengeance and I think there's going to be a lot of emotion involved in the game. So thinking back on 23 World Cup quarterfinal and how close that test match actually was because it could have gone a mischarge down, could have been two points and the French could have taken it. there was multiple opportunities for both teams to either score points and either didn't come away with it or luckily did come away with it.

28:13So I think there's going to be a lot of emotion involved and I think that will make a very entertaining opening 20 minutes. So I think if the South African guys can handle that intense start and actually take control of the game, it might pan out in favour of the box. but I think if the French get the upper hand and they start building momentum, they're quite a tough team to stop. I wasn't there. I'm really gutted. I wasn't there for that game but both of you were. Slotty, do you remember that weekend in Paris with those epic quarterfinals? How amazing were they?

28:48Owen Slot: Shame you missed that, Will. It was the greatest weekend of rugby ever, wasn't it, Alfie?

28:52Alfie: It was one of the times I was really glad to not be tied into covering England at that World Cup like you were because I could just go wherever the best games were. So I was just in... As soon as we knew those quarterfinals or roughly what the teams would be, I knew that I'd be in Paris. That must be, Stephen, I know you're saying that it's brilliant, by the way, that you've got kind of an element of closure and you've been able to still enjoy watching the game. But it must be weekends like this, isn't it? That you're looking at that Stade de France, night-time kick-off, box against this French team that you must just look at it and would love to be involved, I'd imagine.

29:22A hundred percent. No, I was having this conversation with my missus over the weekend. I was like thinking about the New Zealand-Ireland test match of the past weekend and playing in almost foreign venues or playing away from either the Viva or the Eden Parks. And those test matches become quite memorable. So I think that's probably those big hype test matches is the ones that you miss the most, I think. And probably for me, for the next couple of years, is the ones I'm going to miss the most. So yeah, I think the build-up, the amount of talk in the media regarding this test match, the success the Springboks have had during the year, the win over the All Blacks, winning the rugby championship, a good win against Japan, all leads into this one test match.

30:07So I think it's going to be one hell of a game and hopefully build on that reputation from the 23 World Cup.

30:15Owen Slot: When you look back at that quarterfinal against France, the thing that immediately comes to mind to me is that France was so quick out of the blocks. I mean, they were like 40 points ahead after five minutes or something, weren't they? well they scored they scored two tries in two tries in 10 minutes i mean it was it was a phenomenally awesome start to a game so my question to you do you remember that early period because even a team as as drilled and as confident as the springboks you had every right to think christ this is you know we're this is something that we haven't seen before we're out of our depth or you could have you you could have started to doubt yourselves i mean to have come back from that to turn that around was um that's what sticks with me from that game that that you managed to to just hang in and believe and all that stuff yeah there was a there was a lot of chatter before the like in the in the week building up to the test match a lot of chatter about a hot start quick start maybe trailing with 14 points there was all these scenarios were talked about so in one thing we we kept telling ourselves um as a team was to to not die wondering so even if we 20 points behind.

31:22We're not going to stop and just give over in a quarterfinal because there's so much more to play for. And that's basically what happened. They came out the blocks, they led with a couple of points, and we just kept chipping away. So we said, listen, guys, we're not going to change our game plan. We're going to stick to what we're doing. We need to at least try and make the plan work. And if it does fail within by 20 minutes, we'll start changing. So that was just the comms all time. We just, like, just guys, just get stuck in there, back in it, and let's try and force a couple of points back on top of them.

31:52So that was the mindset and that's how we played the game. It was, and that's why it was back and forth like that. It was like they, when a couple of tries up, we, even the game, took the lead and we just bolted out like, or the game just panned out in that fashion where it was quite a bit of a ding-dong back and forth. What's your favourite bit from that game, Stephen? Because there was so much content in it, wasn't there? There was the scrum from the mark early on. There was Colby chasing down Thomas Ramos as you highlighted. I mean, DuPont came back from his broken cheek was wearing a scrum hat for that game loads of high balls like what are the two or three bits to you that still stand out two years later yeah i think for for me it's it's quite tough it's like it feels like a bit of a blur like that game was so quick in this there's moments in the game where i felt like you were chasing shadows and uh the french were just like all all over us and there was moments in the game where we felt in complete control but to be honest i think the The standout moment was definitely the Cheson charge down.

32:50And why I'm saying it is because we were, in the week leading up to the test match, we were, in our analysis, we were looking at footage of how long the kickers take from the start till they strike the ball. And we're working out per second when you need to accelerate, when you need to get off the mark. And it wasn't just place kicking. was guys who kicked from hand, the pons left or right-footed box kick. And we were timing all these things. So like Yibben and the props had the best chance at counter-racking with the charge down. And we can build as much pressure. So that wasn't like a bit of a fluke where Cheslin charged him down.

33:28There was hours and hours of video analysis going into that one detail of the game. And we actually executed it as perfectly as it could. So that is something that stands out for me about that game is because there was thousands of hours of video footage that went into that week and throughout the French last couple of seasons and work that each player had his division that he had to look at. So I think that's what made it so special because the amount of work that not just the players did for those 80 minutes, but actually the coaches and the staff and analysis and everyone involved, that was what made that test so special for me.

34:11Alfie: Stephen, if I can accelerate us forward almost to now and off the back of that incredible quarterfinal, you guys went on and won the semifinal by a point, won the final by a point to go back to back world champions. the Springboks have just won the rugby championship or had defended their crown for the first time if you like and there are comparisons now between kind of this era of the Springboks and the era of the All Blacks that were so dominant that kind of 2011 to 2015 All Blacks that won back-to-back World Cups and were so dominant and where the Springboks are now I know you've got a foot in in one of the camps but what do you make of those comparisons?

34:46Yeah I think it's it's difficult to say because the legendary like 2011-15 all-black team was was truly like remarkable I think high 90s win rate never really looked like they're going to lose a test match um so they were just something special but I think what the maybe the difference to what what Rossi is getting right now is just how he's building building squad depth so in last year in 24 he used over 50 players in for the international season, which is quite remarkable. And I think similar to this rugby championship and maybe the incoming series, the amount of plays actually rotating throughout the squad is quite special.

35:26So having that mindset of saying, listen, we're going to build a proper squad depth, plus with your thoughts on 2027, it becomes quite extraordinary because now there's not just maybe like your designated 10, which is maybe Sasha or Andre. there's actually three guys in the pipeline same with the front row same with the hookers and that and that makes it quite special so i think yes the springboks currently doesn't have the same winning winning rate uh compared to the all blacks from from richard mccall and dan carter's era but they're doing something outside of that is which is quite remarkable and building longevity in the springbok brand which is quite cool so that is what i'm currently loving and i think hopefully with this mindset we can see the springbok do exceptionally well or be top three in the world for at least the next 12 years or the next two cycles of players coming through, which would be quite amazing.

36:17Stephen, what do you think the driver is? Do you think it is that kind of legacy thing now for the box to go three in a row that no one's ever done in 27 and become the greatest ever? Is that kind of now part of the thinking and the drivers in camp, do you think, that people are going, we want to now be not just a good box team, not just a great box team, but the greatest yeah nothing definitely i think with russie's planning it's um it's definitely a mindset of of seeing how long we can keep this um i mean there's a tighter prop 21 years old who made his springbok debut this weekend against japan so that just shows that uh he's not scared to to throw in a couple of youngsters that he thinks got it's got the legs to make it um with with the older guys and um so yeah i think that is probably the mindset is to to build this group of 60 players and phasing guys in and out but make sure that that group is strong enough to compete for the next however long russie wants to be in charge or the next guy who takes over if russie maybe goes back to a director of rugby role or or just outside of the inner circle but at least there's some proper planning and and future planning that goes into the spring box so they can stay on top of the on stop of the rankings for for as long as possible so So I think that is truly the plan going forward.

37:38Do you find it quite amusing that everyone's trying to copy the box now? Like, spent a few years complaining about the bomb squad and hybrid players and stuff like that. And look at what Steve Borswick's been doing. He's been bringing Lions off the bench altogether. As an original member of the bomb squad, what do you make of the English version? Joach, I think I was quite frowned upon in the beginning. And there was a lot of chatter about it in the media. But Joach, I think it's a way to handle pressure in the second half. It's a way to apply pressure in the second half. And I think if teams start copying it, it must be working.

38:09So, yeah, I think England's definitely got the squad depth and the players to be able to pull it off. So it's just that consistency. And Steve needs to understand that the players are going to be able to compete and be able to bring that intensity and energy in that last 30, 25 minutes of the test match. So hopefully we see more of it. That is what I'm saying as a founder of the bomb squad.

38:32Owen Slot: as a founder do you have a name for for what what the english bomb squad could be called steven i'm not sure i think i'll probably have to to watch another season or so of english rugby before i can make a comment on that but uh yeah maybe i came up with menace men pom squad people

38:50Alfie: have mentioned we've had a few yeah the hench bench and nothing's quite sticking yet though is it i thought about the splinter cell because they're all sitting on a bench i've got the minor explosion

38:59Owen Slot: mob because it's going to be a minor exposure it's not we can't pretend to be as big as the bomb squad or the or the firework five because five works at five works they've got to come at five at a time haven't they that's nice can you talk to us a bit about the the origin of it we were just chatting about it before we hit record was it franco mostert who came up with or was the one started shouting bomb squad yeah 2019 yeah i think 2019 is uh the first time we We started running on as pairs or as a group, and the results of test matches went a little bit in our favor because of that. We came out as a full front row and actually changed the way we scrummed or we gained more scrum penalties.

39:37So as soon as that 6-2 split started working and people started talking about it in the media and this African bench is doing so well and this really game-changer, the way they're doing it, Franco actually started screaming it off the games or coming into the locker room, the bomb squad. And it actually started sticking. And we started calling ourselves the Bomb Squad. And even in team announcements, the guys who played off the bench said, yeah, we're proud to be part of the Bomb Squad. We're proud to be sitting on the bench for the box this weekend. And actually started naming it in the media or amongst our friends and the guys close to us.

40:15So, yeah, I think it started there. And then it got picked up by the African media. And then from there, yeah, just caught fire properly. And now you're selling bomb squad beer? You've started commercializing the bomb squad? Yeah. So myself and Malky in 2022. Malcolm Marks. Yeah, Malcolm Marks. We were roommates for the last five seasons at the Springboks. And we always spoke about life after rugby and what are we going to do one day and what was his dream or my dream. And I always liked the idea of selling, like having a drink, like selling a beer, being in that alcohol space or in that industry.

40:56And he said, yo, but like, why don't we, why don't we like start a beer? And we had like thousands and thousands of different names that we wanted to call this company. And my missus actually, and we told my missus the idea. And she's like, listen, why don't you guys just call it the Bomb Squad? And she's like, surely we can't, we can't just take the name. And we started asking around. We asked the fellow Oaks on the bench and said, listen, are we going to do this? Are you guys keen to get involved? They all had different hobbies. We wanted to get stuck into something different. And so we went with it.

41:27So we got a couple of attorneys and lawyers involved and said, listen, guys, is there any way we can wordmark the word Bomb Squad and then trademark these different industries? And they got on top of it. And then we started the business. and that's basically how the bomb squad the other bomb squad brand started uh from from rugby so what what can you have now as a bomb squad you can have a beer we were saying does it get you drunk after only about an hour or something you don't get so in in south africa we actually um we're trying to develop this entire lifestyle brand um with with bomb squad and so we got in the drink space we got the beer and we've got a thing called the eyeball which is a like an rtd which falls under the bombsquad umbrella but then we do clothing we do golf golf range we do meat products we do brys or bomb squad built on bomb squad built on we do we do we've got about eight or nine different industries at the moment with with the brand and it's all it's all owned by our like the the one holding company which is quite cool yeah last talking of commercialism last one one of the things you mentioned to us while we're just getting ready is what's happened to Henry Pollock's hair we're asking ourselves the same thing yeah what do you make what do you make of Henry Pollock I mean he's only had a couple of caps hasn't he but he's um done it loudly let's say yeah he's done it loudly and um I think also like it's completely different to the way so Africans used to play rugby it's like everything is quite quiet I think Sascha is probably the first one to celebrate quite bigly and boldly when he does something special but it has never been a way for us to do that and I always enjoy watching Pollock because I think he's bringing some entertainment to rugby and he's getting the crowd fired up, he's getting people talking about him, I mean he's exploding all over social media so if I had to be the coach it would have been quite tough for me to have someone celebrate like that but also in the english english space it might work for them so i don't know i don't know what to think about it i like the way he plays but i don't always like the celebration and then the white noise that comes with it so yeah that's that's my five cents on on on pollock you i mean imagine imagine i was just the next england box game exactly i was just thinking whenever that happens when henry pollock

43:46Alfie: comes up against the spring box for the first time that's gonna be so interesting isn't it it's going to be brutal Stephen look thank you so much for your time we'll let you go it's been really enjoyable chatting to you it's great to see that you're fitting in so well to life after rugby after what no doubt was a pretty tough time for you so thanks for joining us on the ruck really quickly prediction for France against South Africa this weekend yeah it's going to be tough honestly on my podcast I said the French are going to win by one point but to be honest I'm not sure you can change your mind here now and be right yeah I think it's going to be four points either way it's tough to make a prediction I think if the French come out first 30 minute they'll probably take it and if the box can handle the initial onslaught they might they might manage to claw it through but I think it's going to be tough well Stephen awesome thanks so much for joining us really appreciate it thanks guys it was a lot of fun brilliant to chat to Stephen Kitsoff gents so much to get into that injury is just amazing in a terrifying way, I suppose.

44:54Yeah, I mean, you've covered this sport far longer than me, Slotty, and written lots of... No, but in a good way. Just stop saying that sort of stuff. No, I'm doing it in a, like, respectful...

45:02Owen Slot: All you've done is, like, well, you were around in 2000-something. You saw the glory days, Slotty. 95 and 71 Lions. I was actually remembering, and it was a concussion story rather than what Stephen Kitschoff has, which was a neck injury, but I remember, I can't remember how long ago it was, but a few years ago you did a piece with Pat Lambie. Yeah. And about his concussion and things like that. Yeah, that was a long time ago, yeah. But I just find, like, the more we know and understand about these poor players after their retirement, the more we probably just get a bit scared when you hear stuff like that, that someone's had such an awful injury and you just go, I hope to God that they're getting the right advice at the right time.

45:44And it sounds like the only decision Kitsov could have made was to retire and let's hope it's all a happy and healthy one for him because that just sounded

45:51Owen Slot: absolutely awful didn't it i i thought he came over incredibly well obviously this was a an interview so he wasn't going to be too negative about it but but the his his attitude to it and the way he picked himself up from it and embraced his next life all the all those sort of life um changing things that we we know in sport are so hard he that transfer he seemed to have um be very positive about i do i do quite like that you can't really have anything in sport anymore that which doesn't get then packaged up and sold back to you can you like the bomb squad beer and biltong and golf buggies and everything else i like that though we should get them on board get

46:31Alfie: them on board to sponsor the yes they want to sponsor the pod yeah the bomb squad beer uh let's round it off then so fixtures this weekend ireland japan scotland new zealand england fiji Italy, Australia and France, South Africa. Let's start on that last game that we were chatting to Stephen Kitts off about because that is blockbuster. I mean, is this basically a game to decide who is the number one, the best team in the world? Well, as of next year, it might be the Nations Cup final, mightn't it? Which then we could actually say they are the best team in the world. I think it is though, isn't it?

47:02Yeah, it's the one we're most excited about. I guess because we're not getting a New Zealand-France, that would possibly be the other one that you could bill as who's the best especially now that New Zealand have beaten Ireland so yeah France and Africa is going to be absolutely amazing

47:17Alfie: we should mention as well Scotland New Zealand we haven't spoken loads about Scotland this week or last week on the pod I think partly because they were playing the USA and that game was a dud but I mean their autumn revolves pretty much around the All Blacks game well they've never beaten them and I sort of I joked the other week I gave them a sort of accidental drive by shooting by saying they almost would prefer to lose tightly to the All Blacks than actually beat them, because then it's like, oh, we nearly did it. The moral victory. The moral victory. They've got Tonga and Argentina. I know Argentina aren't easy, but to me...

47:49Alfie: But yeah, you're right. It lives and dies on this. Yeah, exactly. And look, again, thinking about the journalism side of it too, if Scotland go through this autumn badly, then it's all two jobs, two knee and all that coming out, isn't it? Of everyone getting annoyed about his Red Bull gig with, let's call it Red Bull rather than Newcastle because it's the Red Bull organisation not the only rugby team they have Newcastle Red Bulls and already the Scottish media are pretty annoyed about that and the fact that he's seemingly trying to have his cake and eat it was the way that Mark Palmer phrased it, our mate up north so if they don't go well in this autumn you can definitely see that coming back to bite Greg and Townsend

48:27Owen Slot: Does Scotland get extra tariffs put on them for beating America so heavily? I mean that's true They should have thought about that didn't they as they went over the half century Whiskey's gone up by 85 % yeah finishes off

48:39Alfie: England how did England approach Fiji you've already said that Ben Earl at 12 is somewhat of a possibility important do you think important off the back of Australia Slotty that England find a bit more of their attacking flair yeah

48:52Owen Slot: I mean that's kind of what you were sitting there thinking I was on Saturday and that's when I sort of had to sort of prompt yourself you know slow down first game of a campaign in wet day, etc. So I would hope that would come on a bit. The Ben Allitt at 12 thing. Am I not being innovative enough here to say that why don't you pick Ollie Lawrence at 12? The thing about Ben Allitt at 12 is, I know it's all to do with the bench, but if he starts at 8 then he can move into 12 if required. Is he actually going to start at 12? Is that what we're saying? Wow, yeah. Steve Borthwick said that himself.

49:30He's used him there in games. We know that. We saw it first in Tokyo 2024 in the summer when Alex and I were there and he's done it a few times in matches but he made it clear the other day, didn't he Alfie that it was a thing that he could do from the start like literally Ben are wearing 12

49:47Owen Slot: but he can't have half of the skills that an Ollie look at I know that Ollie's played at 12 a fair bit and sort of proved that he's more of 13 but sure he's more of 12 than Ben is and he's got the things that Ben's bringing which is ball carrying and pace. Yeah, I guess the... I agree with you. I guess the argument would be to try and get as many of the punchy back rows on the field as possible. Can you use Earl as a 12? And would this be a good week to try it to see if it works, if you need to do it for a long time in a big game? Well, for that side of it, I get. And then Fiji are looking at that going like, oh, right, so you're just trying your stupid plans against us, are you?

50:25Good luck. We beat you the last time we were here.

50:27Owen Slot: You think we're a practice game, do you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Tuasova is listed down on their squad list. And I'm always worried about that.

50:36Alfie: I'm thinking you'll be relishing it though, I think. They were like, oh, you're sticking a forward in your centres. All right, we'll see what happens then.

50:40Owen Slot: Do you think that Borthas is doing a bit of a mind games-y thing with Lawrence? I'm a bit fixated on why you wouldn't pick him because I think he's the best ball-carrying centre that we've got. So surely you're spending your time working out how to get him to work rather than how to get Freeman to work for him. Yeah, I mean, Alex has said it a lot when we've talked about Lawrence that he's always seen him as a better 13 because you can put him into the wider spaces and Ingram just don't really have that, like, natural 12. I mean, Dingwall is a very good, nice glue player, but he would say himself he's not going to bust the front door down and they're using Tommy Freeman to do that a bit, weren't they?

51:15Which is maybe not his best skill either. So, but yeah, on that, I don't know. The way that he pitched it last week, Steve Borthwick, was saying that no one expected Oli Lawrence to be ready. And it's sort of like, but he kind of is, though, and playing really well for Bath.

51:27Owen Slot: What does that matter if no one expected it?

51:31Alfie: Well, we'll see what team England name. The next pod for you on Thursday, where we will look ahead to all the action at the weekend, including England against Fiji, which is where Will and I are going to be. Slotty, are you twicken them? Are you there for the All Blacks? What's your November look like?

51:46Owen Slot: I'm going to Madrid to watch Duke Ellingham. I mean, that was the obvious. You saw that coming in. I can't believe I missed that one. Yeah. what I'd really like to do is to go on a trip to Madrid via Paris because as discussed, that is epic. Yeah, that is awesome. Well, Elgin's going. So next week we've got to have Elgin, his report from Paris. Yeah, absolutely. Elgin's so smart, isn't he? He just manages to get himself to some really good places. And he's even created for himself a French rugby column, so he has to keep going back to France. I know, I know. That's brilliant. He's clever. he's for dhs that he's our wife carrying correspondent yeah yeah yeah that's fine by the way that's you need to read the piece it's nothing it was in finland he took his what yeah

52:30Alfie: he did he did pretty well i think as well i think what we're learning from elgin is work smarter not harder isn't that expression uh will slotty really enjoyed it thank you so much for for being on the latest episode of the ruck and thank you for listening send us an email the ruck at the times.co.uk as i've said next pod we'll be with you on thursday