The Greatest Rivalry: Is this New Zealand's ultimate test?

0:15Alfie: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. We are back with you. Welcome along. My name's Alfie Reynolds. We had a little break following the end of the nation's championship, but we are back. We are ready and we are looking ahead to the first test between the Springboks and the All Blacks, which is taking place this weekend. Great to have you with us. Joining me to do just that from South Africa, first of all is Alex Lowe. Hi, Alex. Hello, Alfie. I'm back in Santon, six weeks on from England being here. I'd say that the vibe is rather different this time around.

0:50Alfie: Yeah, hold that thought. I want to ask you about that. Also, Alex, a lot of travelling for you this summer. As you say, you're in South Africa not that long ago for England's match. You were then in Argentina. Been a busy summer. Busy summer of Test Rugby. Yeah, I mean, the England players were complaining about the brutality of the travel in the nation's champ. The journos just crack on with it. Yeah, everyone forgets about the journos. Exactly right. Also joining us, also in South Africa, is the New Zealand-based journalist and author. You'd have heard a lot of him on our Greatest Rivals series, which we put out over this week for the Ruck.

1:25Alfie: Jamie Wool. Jamie, people are going to be no strangers to your voice now if they've been listening to that series. How are you doing? I hope they're not. I'm hoping that as many people listen to that podcast as possible because I'm really proud of it. And I'm just, yeah, awesome thing to be able to do. And yeah, but it's awesome to be here in South Africa. This has been a much anticipated trip for us. It's been 30 years since the All Blacks have been here. It's funny you mentioned the journalists traveling. Usually, if you go on a trip like this, you get in touch with the guys who've come before you and done something like this before.

1:59The last guys who did this trip as journalists are all either retired or dead. So we're forging a new path for New Zealand journalism on this tour.

2:08Alfie: Fighting the good fight. That tells you an awful lot, doesn't it? And if any of you haven't listened to all of or haven't seen yet, I mentioned it. The Greatest Rivals series is a six-part series that we put out over the last week, which looks back at the history of the rivalry between the Springboks and the All Blacks, all the politics involved, some of the most iconic moments in the sport. There's an awful lot of effort went in from all of the guys, from Alex, from Will, from Elgin. Jamie was a massive part of it as well. It's well worth your time. It's in the Ruck feed now. So go and check that out.

2:38Alfie: Look, lads, we've touched upon this already, but I want to start maybe with you first of all, Alex. You were in South Africa for England's first game in the Nations Championship not that long ago. How different does it feel ahead of this match, the first test between the Springboks and the All Blacks, to what it did for that test match that England were involved in? Well, sometimes when you go on tour, it's a bit of a journalistic trope, but when you chat to your cab driver, what are they? You kind of take the temperature by talking to your Uber driver and being out here six weeks ago when England were here, no one knew there was a game on.

3:13SA Rugby were punting cut price tickets in the week of the game to try and get a decent crowd into Ellis Park, which they did in the end. And on the night, it felt big, but the build-up felt flat. I mentioned it in my piece today, but Razia Rasmus couldn't even remember the name of the competition that they were playing in six weeks ago. And even yesterday, when Jamie and I went to see the box, he sort of made a point of saying, well, I sort of get the nation's champ, but I don't really like it. Whereas this is significant. There's historical significance to it. There's a context 30 years on from the Epic Series in 96.

3:45and there is an irony of at a time where Six Nations and Sanzar are telling us that they've got to they've got to frame one-off tests into a wider competition and summer tours are over here we've got a traditional tour 30 years on from 96 and the anticipation over here is is huge and my my cab driver took me into the box hotel where the the bus is outside and he was like oh the Bocca are staying here. We're playing the All Blacks. It is always the best game. There's just a sense of something significant brewing and both Dave Rennie and Razzy Rasmus yesterday in different ways referenced how different and how much bigger this series feels.

4:26In some ways the naming of it almost doesn't help because it's a marketing tool but actually just the significance of playing four test series between these two sides. Razzi was reflecting back on 96. De Reni called it the ultimate challenge. It's a Lions-esque challenge of playing midweek games and test matches. Yeah, it's so different this time around. And even in Stanton with its, I'm just looking out the window here, interconnected hotels and shopping malls and conference centres, it feels different. And Saturday will be mega.

5:01Alfie: Yeah, Jamie, there was a line that you used in that series we put together where you said that this is the most eagerly anticipated thing that the All Blacks have done basically outside of a World Cup or Alliance tour. Like for the All Blacks, for the rugby public in New Zealand, how massive is this series that's going to get underway on the weekend? Oh, this is gigantic, not just because of the historical connotations of it, but also the place where both sides are at the moment. Obviously, historically, South Africa was the most difficult place for the All Blacks tour back in the amateur era.

5:37They didn't win a series until 1996. And the reason why it's held up as such a massive accomplishment, perhaps the biggest accomplishment the All Blacks have ever achieved, is because it was the one thing they'd never done. And it was thought back in 1996, given the advent of professional rugby, that they might never even get a chance to do it again. and it's taken 30 years in order for it to come around again. And in that time, we've had great All Black teams and now we have a great Springbok team and it really does feel like the old days when they're coming over here as underdogs because you have to remember, there's not actually many times where the All Blacks go into test matches or test series as underdogs and it was always when they were playing South Africa in South Africa, and given the state of the All Blacks at the moment and where the Springboks are, this feels like such a gigantic challenge.

6:31And it's completely overshadowed everything else that's happening this year, like no disrespect to the nation's championship, which I personally think is a pretty good idea, and it's working pretty well so far. But this one, this means everything to the All Blacks. That's why Sean Fitzpatrick is here. That's why all the other ex-All Blacks are rolling in to have something to say about this. This means the most to us as New Zealanders.

6:58Alfie: In terms of where New Zealand are then, we'll maybe get onto the first test specifically and what we expect to see there and some of the selections in just a moment. But looking at kind of the warm-up games, the tour games, whatever you want to call them, victories for the All Blacks, 38-21 against the Stormers, 54-0 against the Sharks, 50 points to 19 against the Bulls. it's always a challenge isn't it for tours like this but have we learned anything about the all blacks from those warm-up games what are they able to take out of them given that they're pretty one-sided yeah i think we have i mean i think that the the first test team has been picked uh a lot of it on the form of those those games some some guys have played their way into the the test side which is what's supposed to happen uh in tours it's obviously more of a thing with the lions where you're literally throwing a whole bunch of guys together and trying to figure it out as you go.

7:52I mean, Dave Rennie had a pretty good idea of who the top test site was, but that has changed since those first games. It has kind of gone the way that a tour usually does, though. They had a decent hit out against the Stormers. That was a really good game. The Stormers really were up for it. And then the next two have been, well, the Sharks game was a blowout, but everyone kind of knew that. and then the Bulls game I think people probably aren't giving the All Blacks enough credit on that for how well they played in that game because there was a lot of chat that the Bulls really felt like they had a chance in that one and so I think if you're looking at it purely from if you compare it to say the Lions last year and how they sort of walked through each midweek game pretty easily this has been building towards this first test quite nicely for the All Blacks they've placed themselves quite well and the other thing is that they've actually managed to by being in the country this whole time, they've controlled the narrative so far on this tour.

8:48The only time the Springboks have played has been out of South Africa in a pretty derided test match. And there have been some serious question marks posed. And Ressi Rasmus has only really had the last week or so to respond to all of that. Whereas Dave Rennie's pretty much said his piece and sat back and seen what happened. So I think it's been a bit of an advantage for the All Blacks so far in this tour, both on and off the field.

9:13Alfie: Razzie's making up for lost time though, isn't he? I was literally about to ask you guys about that. Alex, did you arrive in time for the latest kind of back and forth between various press conferences this week? It's been pretty much the story of the week, hasn't it? Well, it has, yeah. I arrived crack of dawn Thursday, was straight into the two team announcements. And yeah, the barbs kept flying, the to and fro continued, but it didn't really raise the, what I was pleased about, it didn't really raise the temperature any further. It's felt spicy. both sides have had points they want to make and what's really interesting is that they they I mean Razzie's Razzie will find a narrative in any situation we know that historically Dave Rennie less so historically I think but the fact that World Rugby have imposed this this new protocol around the coaches meeting the referees which is which is basically they have to if they're going to meet they both have to agree and they have to meet together which then removes the opportunity for one coach to flag something that they might want to do this week neither coaching party and meeting the referee and so they they definitely turned to the public and through the through press conferences and through the media to try and make a few points about what the other team might be doing there's all that there's also this further narrative around style of play which again like I felt yesterday Razzi has used it to create something for himself he talked about the All Blacks preaching their style of play as if that's the only way to play the game.

10:42I don't think that's what the All Blacks have been doing. They've been talking about how they want to play the game. And there's definitely been a sort of concerted, joined up approach through the franchises about trying to slow the momentum. It doesn't mean playing slow rugby. It just means trying to break up the All Blacks' momentum. Because when the Springboks play, they they are formidable up front and they can play fast England were 17 nil down in 12 minutes here six weeks ago and yet the box have taken what the All Blacks have said and and taken umbrage with it to create this this sense of I guess attention on certain areas of the game it's it's it's built nicely for me I know Charlie Morgan did a piece he was anxious that it didn't reach the levels of sort of poison toxicity that we had here in 2021 which I completely agree with but I think there's a nice spice around it this week and yesterday the two coaches responded to things that have been said by the others but it just kept the pot boiling for me.

11:42There's a lot to look at on Saturday, isn't there, Jamie? About how the teams play, how they approach it, how the breakdown is dealt with. A real classic test of who could impose the way they want to play on the game.

11:57Alfie: Jamie, did you want to come in there? on what, have I got the, a very brief synopsis then of what's happened this week for people that perhaps haven't been totally across it in that we've had Tanu Maga, the All Blacks defence coach, talking about how they want to play at pace and they don't want teams to be allowed to slow the game down. Felix Jones then in his press conference kind of responded to that and highlighted some illegal tucked arms and things they'd spotted in some of those warm-up and tour games. And then as Alex has just been saying, Razzie Erasmus has, has had his response to it.

12:31Alfie: What's it been like out on the ground all week? Yeah, I think it all kind of started back in July when the All Blacks did come out and play a pretty high-tempo game and weren't shy about saying so, and that the players are saying, this is more enjoyable than what we've done in the past couple of years, which you can kind of read between the lines. It's not so much about what they're doing now, but what they were doing then under the last coaching regime. and I think it's just, it was actually coming from a pretty genuine place from what we could tell is that like, hey, we're kind of back, we're feeling good, we're playing the way we want, we're scoring lots of decent tries and it's enjoyable.

13:13It then got sort of taken on once we got here that obviously the line of questioning was, are you going to be continuing to play this way? Because the Springboks obviously present a very different challenge. and they haven't backed down and said, yeah, this is the way we want to do it. And kind of saying without saying like, well, you've got to hang in with us. You've got to score a bunch of points as well if you want to beat us, which is traditionally the way that the All Blacks have played their entire history, really. So for us, it was kind of nothing new. It's what super rugby teams say all the time.

13:49It's what the All Blacks have generally said. but it has kind of been turned into this is the way everybody should play and therefore it should be refereed in a way that benefits the way that we play which is not really what they've said the closest thing to anyone actually saying that was last week Cody Taylor in his captain's run because he was captain against the Bulls sort of came out and said something along the lines of for the sake of our rugby we need to play this way. And what he was actually talking about was, well, we want people to watch this. We want a decent product in New Zealand.

14:28And I think it got taken in a way by the local media. And I can kind of see where they're coming from because they're not as familiar about it as we are. As, you know, for the sake of saving rugby worldwide, you know, we're going to play this up-tempo game. I don't think that's really what he meant. But it has kind of been taken this way. And then, of course, Rassie came out on Monday, He brought his little sidekick, Jako Piper, with him. I don't know how often he does that, but it's certainly the first time against the All Blacks that a former referee has been brought out for a press conference, which was quite a big statement by him.

15:04Quite surprising by Rassi as well, because generally you guys are pretty familiar with the way he operates around Northern Hemisphere teams, with the Lions and everything that happened around that. But with the All Blacks, he's actually been pretty straight up and down, pretty respectful. He was very classy in post-match in the times that the Springboks have beaten the All Blacks. You know, very, very humble, paying tribute to the rivalry and everything and saying, like, you know, this is the All Blacks, this means more to us than anything else. So we're going to really enjoy this victory and things.

15:38And even when they absolutely curb stomped the All Blacks in Wellington last year, he almost seemed a little bit like he, you know, a little bit gutted about it, saying like, I didn't really want it to sort of unfold this way. Like we're happy with the performance, but you know, the rivalry should mean close games and, and things like that. And he was really quick to bring up the, that result in 2017 when the All Blacks beat the Springboks by 57 to nil and said, look, it

16:00Alfie: goes, it definitely goes both ways. So it was a bit surprising to Sam. And then yesterday, yeah, like Alex said, you know, we went into the press conference and it took them all of about 30 seconds to be like, oh, well, they'll preach the way that they want to play and they have to stick to it. And, you know, like almost kind of daring the All Blacks, like, well, you know, you've said you're going to do it. So, you know, you have to run it from everywhere, which was kind of interesting, I thought. But then again, you know, a lot of the rest of the press conference was kind of classy, measured answers.

16:32So, yeah, but it's definitely there. There's definitely a bit of an edge about this one.

16:36Alfie: Why do you think he is doing it then like that, Jamie, if he's been quite different previously in his tenure with games against the All Blacks? Does it go back to what we said at the top of this is just bigger, this is just more important than a lot of those other games? I mean, part of me is like, yeah, it's because of the tour and because, you know, the All Blacks are essentially coming in to try and take something away from the All Blacks. This isn't just any old Test match, it's a Test series, you know, it's four in a row. And if the All Blacks do pull this off, then it would, you know, for us be like winning a World Cup.

17:07Actually, I mean, for me, people of a certain age, it's bigger than winning a World Cup because it's harder than winning a World Cup, which is what Dave Rennie said on Monday. And then another part of me thinks cynically, like, Rassie's kind of feeling a bit under pressure at the moment. Their last time out was not a good performance. There's been some key injuries to his Springbok team, and the All Blacks are playing really well at the moment. So maybe he's rattled a bit, I don't know. But, you know, you have to ask him. Alfie, I think to your question about does this show the difference, he didn't play any of these games when England were here.

17:41I don't think he felt he needed to. I think he's got the 21 Lions Tour in mind. I don't think he wants to go as far as he did then, but he talked a lot yesterday about the four test series and how the games will evolve from one to another. So he's trying to build a narrative. It's about the scale of the challenge, 100%. And I also think it's connected to what I said earlier, that they would normally meet the referee armed with clips, armed with messages that they want to do, things they want to do, whether it's, as he said previously, whether it's a midfield mall or appeal, wanting the ref to be aware of all these things.

18:21They can't do that now in the same way. And so he's trying to find another avenue to get a few messages out. So I think it's a number of different things, but how different this build-up has been to the England week, for me, is indicative of how important this whole series is.

18:38Alfie: Yeah, well, it sets it up pretty nicely, as does the back and forth this week between the two sets of coaches. We'll have a quick break here. The other side of that will focus on that first test in more detail.

18:53Alfie: So first test, Springboks All Blacks this weekend. And Jamie, if I look at New Zealand this year, and it's a really small sample size for Dave Rennie in terms of test matches so far, I get that. But they played really well and beat France, but kind of a French second team. France never take their main team, do they, on those tours in our Northern Hemisphere. Summer, then wins against Italy and against an island side that I think a lot of people consider to have dropped out of the real top echelon of the game at international level. So this weekend, you're really going to find out, aren't we, exactly where this New Zealand side are under Dave Rennie and the signs look pretty positive.

19:31Alfie: The style of rugby looks great, but it's such a huge test against this Springbok side. Oh yeah, absolutely. This is the biggest one so far. I think from what we've seen from the All Blacks this year, that Irish test is generally regarded as the best performance, given that it was a very All Black-like performance and that they just really put the foot down of took the game away from Ireland before Ireland even really realised what was happening. And getting off to good starts in that Irish test and the last game against the Bulls is probably where they want to be because they found themselves down a try against France after like 90 seconds.

20:18they found themselves down against or at least level with Italy after a few minutes and one of the key narratives that Dave Rennie's talked about is the importance of making sure the discipline is on right from the start because it has been an issue for the All Blacks in the last little while a lot of I think the narrative around the All Blacks trying to make the you know the rest of the world play the way they want to is simply because of the discipline issues that they'll face, that they're not adapting well enough to the rules, which is a very un-New Zealand thing to do. But a lot of the fault is to do with the players themselves and the coaches back home just not really appreciating the fact that the margins in Test Rugby are so fine now that they have to get everything right.

21:07And I think it's the main reason as to why the Springboks have been so good is because they're able to sort of walk along that line a lot better than other teams have so that to me is the key thing is the first sort of 15 minutes of this game I think we're going to know who's going to win you know it's still going to be a great test but if the All Blacks get off to a slow start find themselves backed up against their line after conceding penalties and field position it's going to be a long day for them at Alice Park.

21:35Alfie: What's kind of been the standout what's been the headline for you guys from dave rennie's team selection you've got ardy surveyor cam roy guard will jordan who haven't played in any of the warm-up games but they come straight into the starting 15 anton segner on the bench seems like the kind of breakout player of the year so far what's been your real focus yeah the starting 15 is pretty uh has been pretty predictable uh i think um the only real change has been josh will be who's coming off a fantastic Super Rugby season coming onto the left wing and that's a pretty solid pick. The other concerns were around injuries.

22:12Cam Roygaard and Damian McKenzie both had niggles coming in but I think they've just been wrested from those warm-up games in order to be as fit as possible for this Test match. The locking duo was one that you could really roll the dice over this because the depth at the moment is such that Rennie's put themselves in a position where they can essentially swap out guys. We might see a whole new locking combination next weekend. And then, of course, you've got Tupo Valle as well who can cover lock. So those have been the main talking points. The rest of the team is, yeah, I mean, it's the same team that played in July.

22:53And then on the bench, you mentioned Anton Segner along with Peter Lakai. So two loose forwards coming off the bench. It's kind of interesting. And then Leroy Carter as well. He's managed to force his way in. off some really good performances in the midweek game. So that's been the main ones. But the main, I guess, area of concern for the All Blacks has been the strength of the All Black bench against the strength of a Springbok bench that has been, obviously, the whole brand has been built around that and how it's going to deal with the bomb squad in the critical second half stage of the game.

23:27I think, Alfie, from talking to the All Blacks yesterday and listening to Jamie there, Jamie's point about if knowing how the game might unfold 15 minutes in, if the All Blacks are on the back foot already, this is a team picked for them to be in the fight at the hour mark and then inject further dynamism, like move Tupovai into the second row, bring on those two loose forwards, change the picture a bit, keep the momentum high, keep the pace high, the mobility, the dynamism. I guess that whole thing of the All Blacks wanting to play at pace and play, they've doubled down on it, or they've reaffirmed it in team selection.

24:10But it does make the first 20 minutes, as England found here, and England are not as good as this All Blacks team, but they were blown away in 12 minutes. The game was done. And although England left here trying to talk up what they did in the next half an hour, it's actually irrelevant because you're 17-0 down to a box team who can apply the squeeze up front. They've still got the devil in behind. It's just, you can't catch up. The All Blacks will have a better shot at catching up than England, but this whole team selection for me is built on being in the game. I think Fabian Holland starting is really interesting because he hasn't had much rugby, but he's a player who, you know, he's a granite second row.

24:53He will do as well as he can with Tupac at sixth to try and match some of that physicality, I think. But it's a team built for the All Blacks to be in it, heading into Q4, as Steve Borthick would put it.

25:07Alfie: Yeah, I suppose one of the interesting questions for me when I look at the All Blacks is, we've spoken about it loads already in the 25, 26 minutes that we've been recording this, and the chat about the All Blacks wanting to play at pace, which they clearly do. As you say, Jamie, it's been evident from their first game this year against France, the differences between the Rennie regime and Scott Robertson playing at pace, moving the ball, all that sort of stuff. So New Zealand want to play that way, but it strikes me that to do all of that, obviously they have to match the spring box up front.

25:39Alfie: And I have felt in 2023, and part of the reason the All Blacks had that run to the World Cup final was the improvement in their front five that season. Where are the All Blacks? Do you think, yes, we've seen them play at pace. Yes, we've seen some great tries and them backing their skills and the quality they've got in that side. but where are New Zealand in terms of the front five, in terms of the muscle, in terms of the set piece in those areas of the game, which are also going to be so crucial? I think they're definitely in a better place than they were last year because it felt like over the course of the rugby championship and then into the Northern Tour, we'd find some new horrible fact about the All Black Pack that we really didn't want to know.

26:19Eden Park, even in a game they won, their scrum got demolished. Then in Wellington, the line-out got picked off and then by the time they got to Twickenham in that game where they lost to England, I mean, everything's going to culminate. I mean, the Wallabies walked through a lot of their line-out drive defence and then, like I said, at Twickenham, all of it got put together and it just completely disintegrated. It feels a lot more solid now. There's guys who are in there simply to graft around and get to rucks and clean out and produce that quick ball for Roygaard to just fire out into the backs and utilise this kind of new stacked back line that they've got running sort of two back lines at once attack strategy.

27:07So yeah, to answer your question, I mean, the set piece has been good this year. There hasn't been any time where the scrum's been put under pressure. The scrum against the Bulls went really, really well and it sort of made a few South African pundits go, oh, okay, they're here to play. but again this is such a massive step up this weekend in terms of the importance of set piece that you know I would I would think that the All Blacks probably be wanting to avoid as many scrums as they can and not because they're not good at it just simply because that would completely disrupt the way that the Springboks want to play and so I think you'll see the ball kept in play as often as possible.

27:50Advantages get played out as often as possible just simply because the All-Blakes want to be doing something other than scrums and line-outs.

27:59Alfie: And as for the opposition, Alex, well, as expected, seriously strong Springbok team. I suppose the headlines, no Sia Khaleesi, Paul de Villiers, who's having an outstanding year, starts at six. No Thomas de Toi in the matchday 23. He'd probably walk into most other international sides. Yeah, what stands out? Every other international side. Yeah, I'm saying most because I thought, I didn't know whether Jamie would say like, well, hang on, maybe not the All Blacks, but yeah, certainly pretty much every single international side. It's a tournament's tutorial, it's class, and it's just indicative of their depth, but also to Jamie's point about set piece and what we were saying earlier about the two sides entering this with the wrestlers to who can imprint what they want.

28:41And Vilko Lowe being picked as a scrummager, he's less dynamic around the field. He's less of a threat than Thomas Dutoy, but he's a hell of a scrummager. And they will want, you know, back to that conversation about slowing the game down. It isn't about, it's about using the breaks in play. It's about getting, for the box, getting the scrums and the lineouts. And they've picked a team for that for this week, I think. Damien D 'Alende wins his 100th cap at 12. I think Damien Valemsa for me is probably the best all-round player in the world at the moment but the clash between De Allende and Jordi Barrett if you're looking at head-to-heads you've got the two best 12s I think by some distance in the world going up against each other different styles of player both hugely influential in their own team systems that's the head-to-head I'm really looking forward to watching the two nines obviously Grant Williams and um and Cam Roygaard uh your point about Khaleesi had a hamstring if this had been a World Cup final you'd play him I think probably for his captaincy except that they don't there's no pressure to pick him because as you just said as Stuart Barnes wrote back in the nation's champ Paul de Villiers has been so impressive stepping up into test rugby that he you know there's no there's no need to rush the captain back you've got that back row that the box have of Paul de Villiers, Peter Stefti-Toyt and Jasper Viesa is like shuddering in its power it's um it's like hugely impressive and so there's no pressure to to rush Sia back he'll still be he's still the captain he's still the the the totem the figure within the in the camp but they don't lose anything in fact they gain a lot of other things but they gain a lot picking Paul de Villiers at um alongside his other two just as you were

30:35Alfie: saying you've got the two best 12s in the world facing off as a head-to-head and then looking at the bench and thinking well you've got another one of the best 12s in the world also operating as a back row cover for the springboks on their bench in Andre Estes. Yeah and the head-to-heads don't stop there. Malcolm Marks, Cody Taylor, there's loads of them but that selection, you know Andre Estes is now, I think he's listed on that bench as a forward but he can come on in midfield if he needs they've they've developed him as the prototype hybrid player you know England have talked about it they've always talked about other than when when Eddie Jones first mentioned it with Jack Knoll going into the back row he never actually executed it they've they've talked about Henry Pollock as a flank who can deputize on the wing we've seen Ben Earl move to 12 the box are doing it the other way around moving their 12 into a an auxiliary back rower gives them loads of options.

31:32Alfie: Yeah, fascinating. We'll round things off. Jamie, I suppose this is the part of the pod where for me as the host, I ask the most obvious and perhaps silly question, but I'm thinking back to the Lions tour last year and Alex and I were in Australia and I looked at that series and I looked at the Wallabies, even though they were the home team with the underdogs and I felt they had to win the first test because I didn't think they could come back from a game down to win that series. If we're looking at this series, and yes, the All Blacks are playing well, but they're coming up against the back-to-back world champions.

32:06Alfie: They're underdogs. Obvious question, but how important is it for the All Blacks that they win this first test if they are to do the incredible and to end up winning this test series in South Africa? Well, just before I get to that, it's great to have a Henry Pollock mention. It only took 32 minutes. But no, it is very much all on this first test because one of the main narratives of bringing up the 1996 series was how important that first test one was. So it was kind of a weird series because they actually played four weekends in a row, like they are this time around. But the first one didn't count for the series because it was part of the original Tri-Nations series.

32:53But most New Zealand fans regard it as a four-test series. And this time around, it's kind of weird again because a lot of people aren't regarding the fourth test as part of the series because it's being played in Baltimore. It's obviously like a massive cash grab. so it sort of depends on what way you're looking at it but yeah they have the all blacks have to set the tone uh in this game by by winning it i'm not saying it's absolutely impossible for them to to claw it back because of course they will head back down to sea level at cape town um and then before they come back up to play at soweto which is a ground they've uh they've never lost at i mean it's only been two tests but you know they they have happy memories of that place so it's not impossible but it's it would certainly make life a hell of a lot easier with the one this

33:42Alfie: weekend uh at ellis park alex it's gonna be fun isn't it as we said you were there not that long ago for the england game where england just got absolutely blitzed in the first 15 minutes this springbok team this all blacks team it's yeah set up pretty nicely it's gonna be loads of fun and yeah it is all on test one razzi was making trying to make the point yesterday that it's not that this is a series, but he's in a position where he can say that because they're the home side, they've got the depth. It was a deliberate ploy from him, I think. But to win the South Africa leg of the series, you've got to win two.

34:16To win the series overall, you've got to win three. So test one is critical because if, I think what Razzie's saying is if the blocks do drop the first one, they've still got two more tests at home to get it better. As if the All Blacks drop the first to then have to win two on the bounce or three on the bounce to win however you define the series is just a you know an Everest task so I think it's all on all has to be on on Saturday and it's going to be awesome it's going to be epic and I think the fact that it starts Ellis Park has so many historic connotations you know the 92 game 95 World Cup final Ellis Park is just the perfect place for the series to launch.

35:02I think I can't wait to get there. Can't wait to see all these head-to-heads play out. Can't wait to see the narratives clash out on the field to see what prevails. Yeah, it's going to be wicked.

35:14Alfie: Yeah, it's going to be awesome. Can't wait for it. Alex, really appreciate it. Jamie as well, thanks again for joining us on the pod and for all your help with the Greatest Rivals series as well. Awesome stuff, mate. No problem. Thanks very much for having me. and just one final thing before we go I need to mention that an evening with Lewis Moody is coming up in November Thursday the 5th of November it's happening in London Lewis is going to be chatting to Alex about the highs and lows of his career he's going to be discussing his new book and of course his recent diagnosis for MND so I'm sure it'll be a brilliant event you can head to thetimes.com forward slash events to book your ticket that's on Thursday the 5th of November it's happening in London make sure you grab your ticket.

35:57Alfie: We'll be next with you on Monday, reviewing the first test between the Springboks and the All Blacks. It is set up very, very nicely. Cannot wait for it. We'll see you on Monday.