"The Incident", The Australian view and the Lions drive for 3-0

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1:48Welcome along to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. You can hear some clanging and banging in the background. It's Alfie Reynolds here, Will Kelleher alongside me. because, Will, we have just been at a World Rugby, Rugby World Cup ticketing information event. We've been chatting to Michael Hooper, Alan Gilpin, the CEO. You've just been chatting to Brett Robinson as well. So it's kind of all happening. Yeah, and is this the most picturesque ruck we've ever done? 100%. Do you want to set the scene for everyone? So we're standing on the top of the Contemporary Art Museum over Circular Quay.

2:21We're looking out at the boats ferrying people off to different parts of Sydney and we can see the Opera House to our right and we can see Sydney Harbour Bridge to our left and in between the two is one of the great Australian rugby writers, Christy Doran from Raw. Yeah, the real star attraction. Yeah, the landmark. Yeah, the Opera House and a little old journey. Good to join you, boys. Yeah, thanks for joining us, Christy. We appreciate your time because we know you're busy. We know there's been a lot of fallout to the weekend, but we wanted an Aussie perspective on, I guess, the Lions Tour, the second test where the Wallabies currently find themselves in this series.

2:55The incident. There's a lot to get into. Do you want to start with the incident? Yeah, shall we? What should we do? I mean, what's your take? There's been a few, hasn't there? I started with Morgan Teranui on Saturday evening. Look, I think it's somewhere in the middle. And this game, everyone's going to say it. It's so boring, Christy. It's played in grey, isn't it? I personally think it was a penalty. I think Jack Morgan, I think, goes off his feet initially. And I think he's beaten to the rack there by Carlo Di Zano. So I've got to say, though, I initially thought this is going to test world rugby.

3:25medal here because two guys centimetres off the ground you know how much lower can they get what you know is there actual direct head contact I don't think so when I thought it's no penalty play on and then I watched it again and again I actually thought oh I do think it is a penalty is there is there a problem we we talked a fair bit about it on Saturday night after the game but is there a problem here with rugby that we're now on Tuesday afternoon and we still can't work out whether that was the right call or not and well rugby are never going to tell anyone they're doing a review at the moment we've heard today and they've been pretty clear that they want to protect their referees and we talked about it on saturday night alfie that joe schmidt's comments were a bit over the top i thought about the referees aren't protecting player welfare which was you can disagree with the decision but that was a bit strong and the world rugby have basically said that wasn't fair cop but you've been asking people about this today christy it's odd that world rugby going to do a review and then not tell anyone what the final decision of that review will be whether that was the right call or not so then everyone's just going to stay entrenched in their own positions aren't they yes it annoys me because we've just had alan gilpin here and i asked him exactly that surely you've got to bring the the punters in the fans in why aren't you like sure there's accountability within the officiating group but but don't you need to inform your viewers so that they can have an educated response going forward and you know we just spoke to brett robinson the world rugby chairman and it's a similar i don't want to talk about and it's well Well, hang on, why?

4:47Because who do you play the games for? Who do you demand and ask people to cough up so much money? And you go and you work out. And everyone's hiding behind, we need to protect the officials. We don't want another incident of Nick Berry and what happened in South Africa. On the Last Lines Tour, yeah. On the Last Lines Tour, of course. But for me, it's just allowing for people to not be educated. And I would have thought you want to educate your viewers. And I guess their response that they didn't say, which they're probably thinking privately, is that the world's not grown up enough, social media's not grown up enough for us to go, actually, we've looked at it four days later, and it was the wrong call.

5:25Sorry, everyone, we got it wrong. But, you know, get on with it. Like, that would cause more of a bin fire, wouldn't it, on social media? And I think that's why they won't announce the conclusion of the review. But you sort of think, God, can we get past sort of like Twitter dominating everything, X and Instagram dominating everything? There are more people outside of that that don't just live on social media who would quite like to know whether that was the right call or not. Yeah, the comment section isn't necessarily a reflection of everyone else and most people will be like, oh, OK, they've decided that.

5:53What I would say, though, I think it's come a little late in the series, but I feel the series finally came to life. And it's already over. Yeah, it finally came to life and the series is done. But there is a part of me, maybe the devil on my shoulder a little bit, that loves that we got some controversy. We needed drama, and particularly in Australia, because I'll tell you what, rugby league is built around drama. They lean into it, and I feel like Australia and world rugby, they pull away from it. They don't want to be seen as someone that's embracing this kind of style. But I'll tell you what, in rugby league and in state of origin, I know you guys were devastated not to go to it because we're down in Canberra watching the Brumbies do battle with the Lions.

6:31But if that's state of origin, I'll tell you what, in a 50-50 court, they're sending that to a series to side. They would have gone, that's a penalty. Obviously, it's not going to happen in rugby. Well, they do that for telly, you think? Totally. It's the difference between millions watching it. And you think worldwide, there would be a lot more people gripped. Newspapers would be buzzing around a series finale. That's what we wanted. Well, that maybe brings us on nicely, Christy, to what does a 2-0 series over after two games do for rugby in this country? And I suppose the Lions tour being billed as the start of this golden decade.

7:03And they've still got a home World Cup. And if they could do great things there, then I'm sure Australia as a country would really get behind them. But there's another element here that the Lions have come in they've won all their tour games they've won the first two tests series over is that damaging to rugby australia's hope of what this lions tour could be for the sport it has to be because quite simply you know the world cup is going to help the the finances immensely in a couple of years but without this line series rugby australia would be in serious debt you know they would have been in 65 million dollars debt it's wiping their debt it's wiping it and it's going to have a surplus of about 35 as well so without the lions are going to buy some more nrl players or something with it.

7:41I don't know if the current administration would do that but it's disappointing in the sense that there's no serious finale but this has been the unfortunate direction of rugby in Australia for two decades. It's been a sorry slide. You've got to think you know the last time the Wallabies beat the All Blacks in New Zealand was 2001, the last Bledisloe victory in 2002 and obviously we haven't won a World Cup since 1999 and you look at the last couple of their additions and they've got worse and worse so unfortunately it kind of continues this trend of of where rugby is going but it was a superb contest like saturday night was a cracking contest i actually think the officiating on the whole was pretty good and i think people would go like imagine if a world cup finals at the mcj 100 000 could be there and they'd be walking from the city it's only like a 10 15 minute walk across the era lovely stuff yeah it's beautiful so it's the show marches on but it does feel just fractionally flat.

8:35And what do you think, because lots of the debate, we've been having them ourselves over glasses of beer and all that, not just on podcasts, but this whole narrative that we've been talking about, about this Australian Lions tour not being that strong, like the tour games were fairly low key, the couple of times where the Lions didn't play very well and the First Nation Pacifica team stood up and were counted, weren't they? But otherwise it felt like we were just waiting for a test series and then the Wallabies didn't turn up in the first test and it all felt a bit like it's taken a long time for this to catch fire and therefore we all start talking about 12 years and should we even be coming back and should Australia have they, are they good enough, all that.

9:12You're not talking for the entire of the country, but what's your view on all of that sort of debate, I suppose? I feel like there's been a bit of rubbish, Seth. Let's be honest, the 2023 World Cup campaign was a bit of an aberration. It was a sorry, sorry year for Australian rugby, but people were talking about the steady rise under Dave Rennie, not necessarily the results, 36 % win rate, but you could see that they pushed Ireland, they pushed France, they should have won there, and then obviously they took a step back at 23%, but this is still a side that's got more World Cups than the entirety of the north of the world.

9:47Go on, Christy. I had to get a little sledge in there. Love it. But the Wallabies is still somewhat of a force to be reckoned with, and we saw that on Saturday night. There's enough sporting prowess, and you look at the calibre, the physical nature of some of the guys. I think what we saw, though, with Saturday night was that the controversy of the end result masked a little bit of what the heck happened in the second half of the Wallabies, where there was only three points there. Bottling an 18-point lead. The Wallabies had never bottled an 18-point lead beforehand. The previous record was 17.

10:20So I know that people don't want to say, and it's almost the dirty word, you can't say the Wallabies choked, but they almost did under this Joe Schmidt coaching environment. Were they underprepared, Christy? Totally. Absolutely. Because I think that's the other thing. The second test was brilliant. Unbelievable occasion. We spoke about it in the pod on Saturday night, early Sunday morning, Will. Incredible. The Wallabies turned up. What a test match we got. But that first test, have they got their preparation all wrong? They have. And I said it in the lead up when the Wallabies squad was announced.

10:49Will Skelton actually said that he was raring to go on the Monday, the day before team selection announcement, a week later, Rob Valentino, who's not picked either in the first test, said that he thought he was a shoo-in to play in that game. So it tells you that the players weren't on the same page as the coaching staff and the strength and conditions, and I've heard that from inside sources, that they thought that they were going to be fit. We've seen players play out of position. Lenny Ketel spent the entire season at 13 for the Brumbies and lines up at 12. Dan McKellar from the Waratahs picked Joseph Akusa Swali, pretty much for the entire year at fullback, and he ends up at 13.

11:26So you've got all these players playing out of a position, and I think we saw that in the first test, where a brand-new 10 there in Tom Liner. There were other options and alternatives. And even on the weekend, Ben Donaldson, he's got 20 caps of World Cup experience under his belt, and he's just stuck on the bench and doesn't come on to bring some tempo into the game. So I think there's been a lot of oversights here. But how important is it for the Wallabies to not get swept 3-0? Lions haven't done it in basically a century. Yes, the series is gone. Do you think that matters or is focus now rugby championship?

11:59It has to matter because they go to South Africa straight after this. There's two tests in the rugby championship. And who's going to switch on really at 2am if they don't fire a shot here? And then you think about it. They come back to Argentina comes over here who have been a very tricky opponent. They won't fear the Wallabies on Australian soil. And then you come to the All Blacks and the Blooderslow Cup. and if you don't fire a shot here, you start looking at all the losses that are going to add up and all of a sudden you go, oh, hang on, it's actually no better than it was under Eddie Jones or Dave Rennie before that.

12:29So that's why it's really important that the Wallabies come out and they find some consistency and that's been the Achilles heel of Australian rugby for a long time. It's actually being able to back up performances. Where's your... So at the start of this, we were talking about coming back here, hopefully in two years' time for the World Cup if we all have still got jobs and everything else. but where does your hope come from Christy that Aussie rugby will be alive and kicking and prepared to dominate in that tournament because obviously the last one here in 03 made the final it was a drop goal between winning it that would have been a third world cup like as you were saying that would be triple the amount that northern hemisphere have got so in the next two years what needs to happen for the Wallabies to really be firing for that home world cup it's essential that the super rugby side start winning and it was a tough decision and they ended up you know just getting it because the rebels financially collapsed but i think rugby was secretly relieved that the rebels did fold it's consolidated a fair bit of the talent there's now five sides down to four and we saw as soon as rugby australia and the aru back in the day started expanding to the force and then to the rebels in 2011 the results have spoken volumes You know, no super side has won a comp since 2014 with the War of Tars.

13:43A year later, the Tars and Brumbies make the 2015 semifinals. But since then, it's just been the Brumbies carrying the flag. You know, there's not been an Aussie side in the finals since 2014. So they need to start winning from a provincial level and take that into the international arena. You know, we don't have a Heineken Cup or, you know, the Champions Cup over here. Players aren't tested on the biggest stage. And you see that, you know, like how you get to a position where Tom Liner is thrown out there in his first starting debut, 12 years later we're repeating the same things of what happened with Robbie Deans in 2013, putting James O 'Connor there.

14:18So I think there's an understanding that there needs to be a bit more stability regarding coaching here. There's been five head coaches in as many years. There's a sixth around the corner with Les Kiss. It will be tricky, though, with a new coach coming on board in about 12, 13 months' time. and how that transition goes is going to be fascinating to watch and whether or not Joe Schmidt actually hangs around in some form or form. Razzie style. Yeah. Because it's always seemed to, again, we were talking about it on Saturday night, that Aussie's got the athletes, like that Polynesian power plus the intelligence footballers and all that sort of thing.

14:53So it's not like Australian rugby's lacking talent, is it, or athletes? Well, you say that, but I think they are because you look at the rugby league and there's 18 teams, They're expanding everywhere at the moment. And at the moment, you don't have the talent identification people picking up rugby players early enough. Too many are getting lost to rugby league, and the NRL is a massive threat. The AFL is a big threat. There's squads of 50 there. So all the best players and athletes are actually getting picked earlier with scholarships and everything else, and they're going to rival codes. The Caelan Pongers, who didn't even dream of playing for the Wallabies, grows up in Brisbane there, and the list goes on.

15:32Like the fact that you have to spend$1.6 million to bring Joseph Akusa Swali back when he was playing rugby at King's College. So Australia's got to be much more proactive in the space of collecting the 14, 15, 16-year-olds and ensuring they play rugby. Because at the moment, yes, there's one or two guys, but we've already seen with Alan Alatoa, he drops out now. Who do you turn to a tight head? The depth simply isn't there, and that's what they need. They need to grow the base, and that's essential over the next few years. and is that like sticking the elbows out a bit more well eddie tried that yeah he did hamish mcclennan the old ceo and then quite a lot of it blew up in their face didn't it i think this current administration has to be much more ambitious you know they can't just afford to you know just go with the motions like drift a bit beautiful ocean out there at the moment they've got to be proactive first there they've got to be punchy they've got to reach for the stars and it sounds like a cliche but for too long rugby australia has been way you know down the pecking order and a bit polite about it maybe and we saw that in the first test didn't we you know the wallabies just copped a tom liner hit and then in the second test it took a well skeleton to to go thump into targ furlong and then you know to take mara okosia by the you know former saracen's teammates take him by the collar yeah yeah well i feel like this is a topic we We could speak for an hour on Christy.

16:52I think we're about to get turfed out of here, to be fair. So appreciate you joining us. Let's see what happens on Saturday. Will and I are going to be heading over to the Lions to the next part of the pod coming to you from there.

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18:45so thanks once again to christy pleasure to have him on and some really interesting talking points will we have quite literally come across the harbour bridge to where the lions have been doing their media so we've got the other side of the bridge this is an unbelievable view yeah so we're at shore school in sydney and as you say we're looking at the other side of the harbour bridge and we can see the opera house behind it and the cbd the cityscape we've just been talking to some of the staff here and they have a lovely like families and friends and school kids private event for new year's eve what a spot everywhere i go around the harbour and every like we went to the glenmore hotel the other day which is kind of a rooftop pub everywhere i go i'm thinking they must make a fortune on new year honestly so yeah if you get if you send your kids here then you also get the amazing view yeah you might have to spend a bit of money on the fees but yeah Yeah, so between the Contemporary Art Museum and here, we filed a news story for the website, which is all about the stuff we were talking about with Christy, with the incident, we'll keep calling it, and very interestingly, World Rugby's bosses have kind of criticised Joe Schmidt for his criticism of the referees, and sort of let's back the refs and let them get on with the game, which I think was fair play from them, to be honest.

19:58But they're not, I don't think, well, they're in a review at the moment, which, as we said, we're not going to know the results of, but I don't think they're going to take any further action against Joe Smith. No, no, he's not going to have his own disciplinary, but they've basically said, come on, we had this situation with Nick Berry four years ago on the Lions tour with Razzie Rasmus and his family were getting death threats. So let's just calm down with the whole referees don't look after player welfare thing, which was fair play from Alan Gilpin and Brett Robinson. Yeah, so that's kind of the wallabies.

20:26Here at the Lions, should we start with injury news ahead of that third test? So Gary Ringrose ruled out. Bad news and good news. Bad news is that Gary Ringrose is still not over his concussion so he will now not be a test lion which sort of makes that decision he made the right decision last week even more stark really, doesn't it? That he not only ruled himself out of a game he was picked for but then he's not going to play at all in a test match on this tour when he definitely would have done. It's an extraordinary tour for Gary Ringrose and before the Scottish listeners say anything this is nothing against Hugh Jones I think he's had a good tour as well but I do really get the sense that all being well Gary Ringrose would have been starting all three test matches.

21:03Yeah, three test line. Yeah, yeah. And now he's going to be a zero. And let's see, he might make it next time in 2029. As we worked out with Slotty the other day, he will be 34 at that point. As we have said a few times, a line in the sand moment for concussion maybe. But then on the good news, Sione Tupolotty, Matt Hanson and Joe McCarthy are all in contention, was the way they phrased it. And they've been doing some light training this morning, having put down their beers after the weekend, including some squid games. and apparently Tom Clarkson lost and got killed off, not literally. Red light, green light for those that have watched.

21:35Yeah, so those guys are back in contention and I think we thought we knew this already but they've articulated today that this is not a third test where they go let's give everyone a game who hasn't played a test match yet. This is here to win 3-0, best team for the job. And that was the thing that I fully expected coming here today. I didn't expect them to say anything else but is so abundantly clear. everything we have heard from this Lions team has been want to be the best Lions team ever 3-0 historic the history's clearly really important for them and I think we will I think well you'll probably naturally see a couple of changes but we will see the strongest possible team and they want that piece of history of Andrew Goodman referenced it in the press conference 1974 was the last time the Lions had a test series unbeaten unbeaten because there was a draw there was a draw but they went unbeaten and nearly essentially 1927 is the last full clean sweep and that was, some might say that that wasn't a proper Lions tour.

22:30It was a four-test series against Argentina, slightly rebel-ish tour and then before that, 1891 was the last time they went to one country and won all of the test matches and that was South Africa and that wasn't really a Lions tour, it was sort of retrospectively made into one. So yeah, it would be proper history if they were to do it. And that is what is keeping, I think, the interest in this weekend really top of the bill and the reason I asked Christy, if you are this Wallabies team, being 3-0'd the Lions basically haven't done it in a century if we're including that like it would be historically bad yeah you'd basically go down as the worst opponents the Lions have had almost ever wouldn't you just by the results and look they weren't anywhere near terrible on Saturday the MCG was brilliant as we've talked at length about and they stood up and were counted but that's got to be a massive if they were motivated on Saturday to not lose a series they've got to be motivated on the pride front to win 2-1 and look on the flip side that 0-9 series where the Lions lost in the first test then got agonizingly close in the second is very similar to for the Wallabies this time isn't it and then they won the third one they smashed it although in that one the Springboks rested a lot of their players having won the series whereas the Lions are definitely not going to do that so they've got to beat a very good team I still think everything everything that we've felt from covering this Lions team is there's just no way Andy Farrell's going to let them drop off or they might still lose but they're not going to be unmotivated yeah the motivation demotivated even it's so clearly there for them to win this game which I think is a great thing for the series and what's been interesting to note is that this this theme of we want to be the greatest Lions team ever we want to win every game has extended so far that there was an Instagram post that the Lions put up a week or so ago that actually just deleted the Argentina game and they've started talking about yeah I'm beating overseas I'm beating over here I'm beating in Australia and like the Pumas can easily go well hang on no we were the team that beat the Lions in 2025 but look it would still be a good achievement I'm not sure it would be one of the greatest achievements of all time as we keep saying because the Australian opposition they faced until last Saturday hasn't been very strong but look the Lions can't choose their opposition can they and so to do it and to do it 3-0 would be as we keep saying it would be historic and i find that a funny word because there's so many times where we watch sport and someone goes history and it's sort of like everything's sort of history isn't it like whether he lost or won it's a page in the history books of this tournament but this would be historic in the sense that it hasn't really ever happened before yeah and that's kind of what's on the line And let's finish off the pod with an email which Glenn got in touch to the ruck at the times.co.uk.

25:18He said, great pod today, which got me thinking. Would love your thoughts on what is the British and Irish Lions mission? Is it to win the Test Series? Is it to further the game? Or is it something else? How should the British and Irish Lions brand be maximised going forward? Which, Will, I thought was a really interesting email because these are discussions that we've been having amongst ourselves, particularly on this tour about the opposition and Australia it's come into question and you know what is the purpose of the Lions so in the professional age is it just about winning the Test Series?

25:51No and I think we've heard on the grapevine that the pitch to Andy Farrell to become the coach was we just want you to win the series because the Lions haven't won a series since the last time we came to Australia and it's not good enough that the Lions don't win the series and And look, they've got very close, incredibly close, ridiculously close in New Zealand in 2017. And then the last time there was a Lions tour, it was an agonising 2-1 defeat with Morningsteen kicking the last goal. So I think his pitch was go and win the series. And so he has made every decision he can to make this a winning Lions tour.

26:27And if that means doing slightly fewer nods to amateurism, then everything's sacrificed on the altar of high performance these days. I guess the interesting element of it is that the Lions as an organisation, and let's use the word that Glenn used, brand, trades on the derring-do, the adventure, the history, 71, 74, 97, 09 in bittersweet defeat. All these great tours where it wasn't just, like those ones largely were winning series, but there have been some great defeats as well. There's been some brilliant moments that haven't happened in the Test series, but let's be honest, we haven't had those this time.

27:04And we haven't really had a sense that the Lions have been adventuring and really touring and sort of discovering Australia. And maybe that just doesn't happen and can't happen on trips like this. And look, they've probably had more time to do that now because they've won. And lots of the players, if you ask like a Tom Curry or a Dan Sheehan, they'd be like, well, why would I want to go to the beach when I want to win the series? So that's the sort of great balance of the Lions. But I think that the issue with it in the future is that is it attractive enough to sponsors and commercial partners and all that if it's very similar to England touring Australia or Ireland touring Australia or Scotland or Wales?

27:43And so what's the extra special bit about the Lions that's remained? Is it just the team announcement thing at the beginning when no one knows they're picked and it's all live on the telly? And then does it just become a normal national tour? That's a debate we've been having, isn't it, Alfie? of like what what is Lions-y about this Lions tour other than the fact that there's just different players playing with each other but I think the Lions will always be different to an England tour for example the nature of the traveling fans that come over the ones every four years different yeah I think it's always going to feel different to that and I think for me ultimately it has to be both and I think it can be both and I think there are maybe times towards the start of this tour where it was one way towards high performance rather than everything else.

28:29I messaged a few friends this because I find it difficult sometimes for us to judge it because our role is to cover it. And I said, look, do you guys just purely care about winning the Test Series and then you're not bothered about everything else? And they actually said, no, I want to see them at local clubs and I want to see them out on the beers. And that is all part of a Lions tour, which I think they need to keep it and they need to remain that as the heart and soul still. But we're also living in a professional age. And also, do you think it's different as well? depending on the country you're visiting definitely yeah because in new zealand south africa i think a lot more people say just win oh my word win the series yeah imagine if you beat the all blacks exactly imagine beating the spring box yeah yeah yeah no i think you're right and and look there's in both countries there's sort of opportunities to get out and away well all three away from the rugby field and the schedule these days may not allow the lions to get out and about and go on boats over darling harbour and all that sort of stuff because they're training and all that's that kind of thing but i feel like they definitely at points on this tour they got the balance wrong and it was way too on one side and let's be honest the games weren't hard enough for it to really be like oh it all has to be high performance and stuff for that and look it's got better as the tour has got a bit better and look i think the fact that they've two nil up and have won it they've they've justified their decision in some ways because they can go well the job was to come here and win the series and win all the games on tour and they have done that but i think it's an interesting thing for 29 and beyond and maybe the women's tour as well like how does that capture what the lions is actually about because we we hear a lot of people telling us what the lions about and then we have been following the lions and we go well that's not really what it actually is or what we're seeing necessarily and look the lines has to evolve doesn't it like it's always evolved it's you're not getting a boat anymore for six weeks like you would have done in years gone by have you so it it does change and has to change but if they don't keep the bits that make it the lions then they what are they actually selling to the world to fans and asking them to pay all this money for which is why i think that hugo keenan moment was so important because that was the moment that is we're going to be replaying that for years to come and the lions tour lives off and needs those moments in some ways in some ways which has it did go a bit over the top with not nearly the extent that the Razzie thing went over the top, but the sort of the incident, the controversy bit, that's sort of become part of the Lions as well.

30:49These, like, debates and the thing that's raging for, we're still now on Tuesday evening and we're still talking about this clear-out that happened on Saturday morning for people back at home. Like, some of that's become part of it. And as long as we don't make it about killing the referees, I don't know, some people over here would say, well, rugby's on the front and back pages, and that doesn't happen. Yeah. It has happened because the Lions are in town and we all feel robbed. Robbed was the Sunday Telegraph headline, wasn't it? I like it. I kind of like the controversy. Glenn, really appreciate the email.

31:18As I say, it's something that we've probably been speaking about in our pub chats throughout the tour. So it's a good one to get on to the podcast. We have some chats that aren't in the pub. Yeah, we do. Like in Ubers and coffee shops. It's not always just drinking. No, but the best chats. When you say pub chats, you mean our off-pod chats. We don't want everyone to get the impression, Alfie, that we're just going around drinking all the time. No, we wouldn't. That's what the Lions are doing now, but not us. Rightly so. We've still got a job to do. Yeah. All right. I'll cancel the wine booking tomorrow.

31:44Glenn, appreciate the email. If anyone else wants to get in touch, the email address, just to remind you, is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Next episode for you on Thursday, reacting to the team announcement, we expect the Lions to go strong. Alan Alatoa out for the Wallabies. That's a big miss. That's a real blow. Yeah. Wonder if we see Tupou. Well, haven't seen him so far, have we? He's milling around the squads, isn't he? So we'll have all of that for you on Thursday. and then of course that third and final test on Saturday. We are coming towards the end of the tour. Appreciate you listening. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

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