The Lions win again but are problems emerging?

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1:27Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times, coming to you on another Saturday night, this time from Sydney in an empty stadium after the Lions have won another game. They beat the New South Wales Waratahs, but Alex Lowe will keller her. Are there more question marks over the Lions after that game than previous matches on this tour?

1:49Alex Lowe: Yes, although I think a lot of things have become pretty clear in terms of who is not going to be in the test team and who is. I thought the Waratahs gave it a really good go. A better stab at it than I expected. They're the third of the four Australian teams. They'd lost seven players to the Wallabies. I wasn't sure they'd stick with the Lions. Again, the Lions started slowly and scruffily, as we've seen all tour. But the Lions couldn't put away because Charlie Gamble, their open side was just laying havoc at the breakdown and winning turnovers. And the Lions just had no direction. I like their ambition of trying to pass quickly and flat, but they're so far.

2:30Alex Lowe: They're so under the nose of the defence that everything's under pressure and it's forced. No one's running straight. No one's breaking. No one's giving them any direction. they have to learn a lot from this you know because where to to make life difficult for the Lions is now really obvious I think so yeah it wasn't a great it was a win but it Andy Farrell was a was about as hacked off tonight as he was after the game in in Dublin because I think well he's just they're not the team are not executing what he wants them to execute it was

3:02Alfie Reynolds: interesting because we had the Sky coverage slash the Stan Sports coverage on watching it during the game and Richard Wigglesworth was up at half time doing a little interview and he mentioned that we're better when the ball's in front of us and I think he sort of means in sort of normal fan speak that when you're running through the front door rather than playing these what Maratoji called in Dublin at the Argentina game tippy tappy football they're still doing quite a lot of that and I wonder whether some of it is that they're trying to force everything so that they can then revert a little bit more during the test series as we've said on some of these post-match rucks but it seems like Farrell and the coaches are getting more frustrated about it and he was I asked a question about it afterwards in the press conference and he just said we're better when we're direct which I think is a cross in the box of Sione Tua Pilotti because that's the 12's job isn't it and Ben Earl did bits quite well tonight but that's the back row as well that's number eight so I expect Bundiaki is going to be told on Wednesday in in Canberra run straight I thought Ben Earl had a good game in that regard but in terms of this attacking play then that we've spoken about previously and tonight arguably maybe after the Argentina game but arguably was the most we've seen Andy Farrell suggest that the players almost aren't doing what he's asking them to do is this the players almost not executing the game plan he wants them to execute?

4:24Alfie Reynolds: I think it seems like that because or there's no one on the pitch and maybe there wasn't tonight which is maybe why this team is going to be what we'd usually class the midweek team. There's no one there who's grabbing it and just getting the players in a huddle during the game and go, stop this, what are we doing? We're shoveling, which is the phrase that Andy Farrell keeps using. And I think the other bit of that sentence he doesn't use because it's a swear word, but you know what I mean, alliteration. So they're shoveling these balls left and right. And it all looks pretty and nice sometimes, but they're doing it so close to the gain line, right in the teeth of the defence, that so many of the balls are getting dropped and lost.

5:03Alfie Reynolds: And it was 20 balls turned over today. That is a staggering amount. And we've said it on other pods before, but the Wallabies aren't amazing. And we'll see them properly for the first time in the flesh in 25 tomorrow. Although, actually, I just looked at my watch and it actually is Sunday morning here already. But they will, you would expect with their athletes, as we've said on one of these last pods, execute when there are those errors.

5:29Alex Lowe: I think the other issue is that when they do execute to get it wide, they're leaving players isolated. So I think Genge got turned over twice because when he got the ball, there was just nobody near.

5:39Alfie Reynolds: He actually made a good break, but no one was with him.

5:40Alex Lowe: No one's with him. And Alex Mitchell was making breaks and no one's on his shoulder and just spoke to Alex Mitchell. And, you know, he was just like, well, you know, everyone's got to get used to how everyone else plays. And, you know, I think that probably comes back to what Andy Farrell is saying, which is I think they appreciate the ambition, but it has to be done at the right time. The breakdown was a mess today. That's not the situation to be shoveling the ball out wide. You've got to just go around the corner and try and generate some momentum. And really, I don't think Bundy had a very good first half in Brisbane because he was trying to shovel the ball too much right up in the noses of...

6:17Alex Lowe: Even when they're on the front foot, they're doing it so in the teeth of the defence that they're applying pressure to themselves. When they're on the front foot, I still think they need more depth in attack because that way you can sell your running lines and you can manipulate the defence. They're just so flat that everything's pressured. And then when they do get it wide, they're getting turned over. But then to finish the point, sorry, about Brisbane, I think Bundy was guilty of doing that in the first half. Second half, he just trucked it up. And his metres after contact were huge on Wednesday.

6:52Alex Lowe: And I think that Turipelotti was a better player, but I'm increasingly thinking that Aki is going to be the Test 12 because no one else is giving that direction. And your point, Will, about who's grabbing hold of games in-game. Maybe it's a generational thing, maybe that's just how modern professional rugby players are, but these guys are the best. Four countries, are they not grabbing the game and going, right, this ain't working, lads? It's weird.

7:18Alfie Reynolds: Maybe I get, to give them credit, we haven't ever played for the Lions so we can't quite know what happens, or even international rugby. But I guess if there's any trepidation, it's about being the guy that sort of goes, I am going to be the dominant figure in this team, when they're all sort of not sure. And they're probably looking at each other and being like, are we the midweek guys? Do you know what I mean?

7:41Alex Lowe: That was the feel about this team for the first time.

7:44Alfie Reynolds: Saturday's a new midweek. We've kind of teed this up as a long theme, but that was very clear, I thought.

7:49Alex Lowe: Very midweek-y. I don't think we'll see the whole test team before the first test. This wasn't completely non-test, but there was a real midweek sort of second team feel about the Lions.

8:00Alfie Reynolds: Well, certainly, to flip it the other way, it was a very good game to avoid. If you were in the non-23, you're probably going, phew, happy about that. Well, you mentioned that a second ago, Alex, so I'll get on in just a moment to maybe players playing their way out of contention. But Lance, do you not think, is there no part of you that kind of was like, well, once again, like the other games, there was some good stuff, there was some bad stuff. The scrum was a real weapon. The line-out was a bit better. The line-out was better too. The attacking game wasn't great, but actually they're building.

8:28They'll get there. That's kind of how I feel about it. I don't think it wasn't great, but do you know what? I think they'll be okay.

8:34Alfie Reynolds: So I've got two thoughts on this. One is they better get good quickly because they've got two games left. They've got the Brumbies on Wednesday and they've got the AUNZ, we're going to have to call it, rather than the Anzac team, the AUNZ team, which is going to be a Barbar's match. Yeah, who knows what that's going to be like. So that's it. Test series. So sort it out really quickly. And the second point, which we don't know. We'll see the Wallabies play Fiji and see what they're like. But I've had this thought in the back of my head and I haven't said it yet, so I'm going to say it now. Do the Lions actually have to be that good to beat the Wallabies?

9:09Alfie Reynolds: Because they certainly won't have to get to the level of back-to-back World Cup winning New Zealand in 2017. And they did get to their level and that was an amazing effort and series and that made that draw unbelievable. And the win in Wellington, sensational. And then they don't have to get to the level of the World Cup winning spring box either, in empty stadiums and all that came with that, with the catalogue of incredible world-class players in that team. The Wallabies are not that good. They're the eighth best side in the world. They've got fantastic athletes and they are improving and they will have a huge plan.

9:46Alfie Reynolds: And some of the coaches that we've spoken to off the record have gone, they've basically had a World Cup camp. Well, this is what I was going to say. So they'll be really well prepared, but they're not anywhere near as good as the 17 All Blacks or the 21 Box. No, but on that point, the more time we spend in Australia, and I don't know why because we haven't even seen the Wallabies yet, but there's just part of me that thinks we are going to get a far more competitive Test Series than many people expect because of Joe Schmidt has basically had those guys, the guys he wants he's had in camp for a long run-up to this series.

10:15And the Lions, as we see, they're improving. They have some good moments, but there's also plenty of areas of the game that you look at at the moment as weaknesses.

10:22Alex Lowe: So your original point was about, was this all that bad? Yeah. I think the challenge for these Lions teams is that every team that's picked is so different. But if we're looking for themes, you're right, the scrum was really good. I mean, Tani El Atupu was pretty hacked off at some of the decisions against him. Dan McKellar reckons he just gets too much attention now from referees. but I thought Finlay Beelam was excellent. Gend when he came on, I thought it was excellent. Scrum was good. The line-out was much cleaner.

10:54Alfie Reynolds: No messed up restarts.

10:56Alex Lowe: Yeah, so if that can become a squad-wide improvement, then you're starting to put some building blocks together. I agree. They will take a lot from the way that the Waratahs went at them on the floor because the Wallabies will go at them on the floor. I think they'll be really disappointed in how they didn't react in-game. But look at who will be in the team on Wednesday, and look who will be in the team for the tests. Jameson Gibson-Park, Finn Russell, Dan Sheehan, Maru Otoji. These are guys who you would have to... I mean, they are the generals in this squad. Even Bundiaki's in their senior leadership group.

11:35Alex Lowe: We've said before, this isn't a Lions squad that has mega names. and sort of three Toro Driscolls and Warburton's and Alan Wynne-Jones's and Paul O 'Connell's and just like Alpha. It's a different feel, which could take us back to the Owen Farrell conversation we had on our last pod. But if you had that group of generals out there today, I think you'd have a better chance of some greater reaction in game, which is what Andy Farrell wanted to see and didn't see.

12:05Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, so I spent far too long the other night compiling a new spreadsheet. Whoa, excitement of the teams and how the kind of rhythm of these 15s and 23s are coming together. And basically, as we've been saying on these pods, the bench is becoming the starting team. So if we look at what might the Brumby side look like, my prediction is it goes Gen, Sheehan, Furlong, Itoji, McCarthy, Chesson, Curry, Conan. and that looks a real test-ready pack. And then afterwards, you've got Gibson Park and Russell, Aki and Ringrose, another sort of all-country partnership, which actually, to be fair to Hugh Jones and Sione Tupilotti, that worked nicely for Hugh Jones' first try.

12:51Alfie Reynolds: Then James Lowe, Tommy Freeman, and then probably Hugo Keenan, who came off a bit early. He's been struggling with a bug. And again, that back line looks quite test-ready as well. and then you could have a bench of Kelleher, Porter, Stewart maybe Tygburn backs up to go on there plus a back rower which actually might have helped Pollock today that he got a little calf awareness that they say these days a little niggle so that he might come fit and then get on the bench for that Wednesday team and then whether Alex Mitchell backs up and plays every game on this tour we don't know and then maybe a Tui Pilotto and a Kinghorn so like that 23 then looks very very different and a lot better than the lads we saw today.

13:33Alex Lowe: I'd say there's a couple of players in there who still have a bit to prove. Tyg Ferlong being one, he carries with him enormous reputation, gravitas. He's another of the senior players, by the way. But he hasn't yet hit his straps. I think Finlay Beelham's playing better than him at the moment. But he carries with him reputation. He's got a bit to prove, and of course Hugo Keenan as well, who was really packed full of errors tonight. Kinghorn played better starting on the wing, but Kinghorn's been playing rugby. Hugo Keenan hasn't played rugby since May 31st. Yeah, so he needs game time. So I think those two have got something to prove.

14:13Alex Lowe: I think Mac Hansen will regret his performance tonight. I mean, not his effort and all of that, but he'll feel like after Perth, he was in everyone's 15.

14:24Alfie Reynolds: He was like, lion's man of the moment. What a lion, that's what everyone should be doing. and he'll be frustrated tonight

14:30Alex Lowe: I think because I think he'll be one of those who's probably slipped backwards on the other side

14:36Alfie Reynolds: I'm still unsure he's going to make the Test 23 but I was actually quite pleased with Scott Cummings tonight because he made a couple of sort of very obvious errors which were a system thing and his own fault for just dropping the ball on the restart in Perth but he played well tonight he saved a try right at the beginning of the game didn't he with a lovely sort of like last ditch tackle and just waded through contact a bit more and just was a bit more himself. So that was a nice reaction from him, I guess.

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16:56If I can take us on to or continue the conversation about players playing their way out today, Alex, you teed it up at the top. Who do you think off the back of this performance will be struggling for the test team?

17:09Alfie Reynolds: Oh, I mean, name most of that team, I would say. Well, I thought, as I said, I thought Ben Earl played well. I thought Alex Mitchell played quite well. I thought Hugh Jones played well. Yeah, I think there is going to be a 10 that ends up on the bench. But I don't know quite if Finn Smith's doing what he has been doing for Northampton Saints. And that was at a pretty decent high level, especially in Europe, obviously. So again, he's not maybe had the performance where you go, yeah, OK, Finn Smith's definitely the backup 10. Like Russell's way, way clear at 10 at the moment.

17:42Alex Lowe: I think I'd flip the question around, Alfie, because with the team selection, this was a day where you had to go and prove a case. You had to go and grab it.

17:51Alfie Reynolds: Sorry, just to interrupt, it felt like one of those World Cup warm-up games where they're just about to pick the squad, like we had in Cardiff. And there's like five of them who are in the squad and like ten who aren't. And it's like, oh, I think we can work out now who's in and who's not.

18:05Alex Lowe: Right, exactly. So it was a day where the, you know, what they've been called the dirt trackers in previous tours, the midweek massive, the Donald's Donuts. It was a day where players had to go and make their case to put their name into the selection conversation. And I thought Finlay Beelham did that. I think Hugh Jones would have done that as well. Ultimately, he's up against Ring Rose. And if they do want Aki for his directness, then there's an obvious cohesion there. I think Genji's already in a test mix. So the bench, as Will said, there's a large cohort of that bench who we know are going to be involved.

18:46Alex Lowe: From the starting 15, I don't think many made a case that will have forced their name into a conversation. Maybe Bielam being the only one.

18:55Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, and I guess if you look at the guys off the bench, and some of these have more time than others. Ben White had nine minutes, so what's he meant to do with that? Marcus Smith had a bit longer, and it was a bit like a Cummings moment from Perth. the one bit where it's just so obvious error he just missed a kick to touch and you just go, ugh. He's had a funny tour though, hasn't he? He started against Argentina and then we've seen him off the bench. Actually the first time he played 10 today.

19:24Alex Lowe: He's played the role that we knew he was picked for which is, let's just fill in some roles while we wait for other players to come round. That's the role he's been asked to play on this trip. It's a waste of his talent in a lot of ways. What I thought when he kicked that one dead, I felt for him because all he can do when he gets his chances is try and maximise the opportunity. So he's pushed it too far because of the circumstances he's in.

19:50Alfie Reynolds: There's one kick down the middle as well that just dribbled a bit too long. It's just little stuff like that. He's forcing it.

19:57Alex Lowe: Farrell has talked a lot about don't be too desperate. Desperation is a negative, which it is. But for someone like Marcus, he's in a situation where...

20:05Alfie Reynolds: That's been his whole season.

20:06Alex Lowe: If he's going to make any kind of an impression, it has to be perfect, which therefore means he's under pressure to nail that kick to touch to within five metres. And in therefore trying to do it to make an impression, he pushes it too long. That kind of thing. It's a really difficult position that he's in. But it is the role that we all knew he had. No one could be surprised that Marcus is filling in gaps, because when Andy Farrell picked the squad, he literally said, we had a conversation about the fly halves and then we had a conversation about the utility players who can fill in. And because Kinghorn was coming late, we knew that that was what his job was on this tour.

20:48Alex Lowe: Now, on Lions tour, that is really important. It's a really important role, but it puts him in a really difficult position. And of course, with Owen Farrell now here as well, his status in the squad has diminished even further. Well, it was quite funny when you were saying earlier, Will, that it was calling out for a player out there to take the game by the scruff of the neck. I was thinking, I wonder who would be good at doing that. Exactly. Not to rehearse the entire pod from the other day, but they're missing players who can grab a game by the scruff of the neck. They really are.

21:20Alfie Reynolds: Or even just not actually almost even people who are on the pitch in the game, but maybe people around the place and around the dressing room. I don't know whether it was happening because we get nowhere near training and everything like that and we're not given any detail about what they've been doing around the tour really. But someone to almost stop training in the middle of it and just go, no, sorry, this is all too pretty and too sort of nothing. Stop, have a think, start again. And like have the sort of gravitas and kind of like balls to just go, I know you all want to get in the team and all that stuff, but no, we've got to stop this and try again.

21:56Alfie Reynolds: maybe they need a bit more of that, a bit more massive dollops of honesty, I don't know To me it really makes the next game against the Brumbies feel massive in that we expect that to be their toughest test out here in the first place And it'll be their best team on paper And we expect it to be their best team and I felt like tonight I know we've spoken about the atmosphere and the occasion of the first few games, tonight was a step up from what we've seen already It wasn't quite the full, well this is my first Lions, so it's not what I would imagine is the full Lions experience but it was better it felt more like what i expected coming out here from a lions tour but yeah it just feels big to me on wednesday that they get that challenge and also that the occasion ratchets up another level because i do feel like there's a chance the lions get to that first test and all of a sudden it's like whoa yeah they're shocked right this is a lion's

22:44Alex Lowe: that will happen the focus on the lions game on wednesday in australia will be almost minimal almost zero right yeah yeah because the game is kicking off at the same time as state of origin three the decider which um here in sydney we are which is here in sydney we asked phil war the chief exec of rugby australia actually we were out on the pitch here yesterday at sydney football stadium and tried to chat with phil war about exactly that and he was like well we we had our date in the diary ages ago and uh origin just came and plonked their game right on top of ours i do think that the rugby australia and the lions should have been more flexible because if they want to maximize eyeballs on this trip then move the game to tuesday or thursday i mean it's it's Or even just earlier in the day.

23:26Alex Lowe: It's nuts they're taking on. So in terms of a big occasion, Canberra is a much smaller stadium than this. And nobody in Australia will be watching the game. So it won't feel like a sense of a question at all. It'll be very Lions-y, you'd imagine. It'll be Lions-y.

23:41Alfie Reynolds: Because we're now getting quite close to tests. Do you know what I mean, though? You guys have covered these tours before. And because, Alex, we've spoken a lot about it, it's a kind of inexperienced Lions team. that there's that potential for that first test to all of a sudden be so far removed from everything they've experienced so far. And it is Suncourt when we were there the other day going like, imagine when this is the test match, what it'll be like.

24:03Alex Lowe: No, completely. And again, you know, I'm trying not to paint him as the saviour here, but that's one of the reasons we spoke about Elliot Daly's gone. He's been there. He knows. He's walked out at Eden Park and he's gone. So the experience of people who've done that was reduced. Johnny Sexton is important for that. Owen will be important for that the Canberra game won't be a taster for that it won't prepare them for walking out of the Suncourt, what it will do on the field though if they get the mindset right the attitude right, we talked to Tania Tupou, he was like, that felt like a test match to him physically

24:38Alfie Reynolds: He said it shocked him, didn't it?

24:40Alex Lowe: Yeah, it shocked him it didn't look much like a test match to us, but he's like it's relentless for him because you see off one international prop and another one comes on the field that's that's sort of what he meant I think the I think the Lions need to use the game against the Brumbies to like make a statement about who they are and how they how you know what they what the Wallabies will need to do to beat them I think this game will give them very some very obvious clues as to how to beat them I think the Lions need to make a big statement about who they are don't mean win by 60 but make a statement about who they are because if you listen you know what sam warburton talked about on our red lions series about the win against the crusaders and you know that's a hot that whole tour is a high level to this as you say will but that win in 17 over the crusaders was a statement win that made the rugby public in new zealand go whoa because that that crusaders team had frontline all blacks in it the rugby public in new zealand went whoa but the lions went chest out we're here this is us And I don't think we've had that performance yet from this Lions team.

25:45Alex Lowe: And the Brombies is the time to do it. It's the time to deliver a performance where they can go chest out. This is us.

25:52Alfie Reynolds: Can we, on a really serious note, end on Watergate? Yeah, quickly, go on. So Andy Farrell is desperate for everyone to know that he thinks the Waratahs over-watered the pitch. And look, there was a cyclone bomb here earlier in the week that we thankfully have missed. but you were on the pitch Alex you tested the grass can we have a live report from how the pitch was yesterday night?

26:16Alex Lowe: I did yeah as I strode out onto the pitch on Friday night I would say it would have taken a stud a good long metal stud but it wasn't wet it was sort of slightly soft but it wasn't glistening with water it wasn't boggy

26:31Alfie Reynolds: as Scott Cummings called it as a man who's played in Glasgow and Edinburgh a fair few times anyway they were complaining about

26:38Alex Lowe: how wet it was it was a bit of a dead cat

26:39Alfie Reynolds: thrown on the table to be like the pitch was wet and Mike Catt was laughing at me about it Well I was just about to say that that was the weird thing in the press conferences he kind of teed this up as a you know did they do something to try and make the conditions difficult or just you know this is the Lions Tour stuff goes against them like Donald Lenehan telling us about them changing the dressing room at the Gabba before the test I was thinking great I've wanted this it's felt a bit too nice and then he's like oh no no no complaints no he just laughed but he wanted to mention it yeah he did he mentioned it on the telly

27:06Alex Lowe: I believe and Alex Mitchell the first thing he said was a greasy ball I'm like guys

27:10Alfie Reynolds: you're all from Britain and Ireland by the way yeah it rains a lot at home

27:14Alex Lowe: you can't complain about a greasy ball you're supposed to be better at this than they are

27:17Alfie Reynolds: yeah oh it's funny though alright we'll leave it there for our post-match pod Lions beating the New South Wales Waratahs they travel to Canberra next to take on the Brumbies and we shall be there thanks very much for listening do leave a review are you guys doing the Aussie game against Fiji? I'm going to Newcastle tomorrow with my Geordie accent prepares but it's not Newcastle Montagne it's Newcastle and New South Wales So next pod on Monday, maybe chat a little bit about that, plus any latest from the Lions camp. And download the Red Lions. It's still available. You mentioned it before. Just because there are more pods doesn't mean you can't go back in your feed and listen to three sets of 40 minutes on the History of the Lions.

27:55Alfie Reynolds: Please do. They're in your Ruck feed, so give them a listen. Thanks very much for listening. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from The Times Tech Podcast. AI is already changing business and medicine, but could it also change the way we look after our own health? In a special episode in Paid Partnership with Vitality, we look at how AI, wearables and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it. Listen to the Times Tech Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Who says Halloween only lasts one day?

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