The Nations Championship explained, Pumas prowl & Scotland suffer

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1:26Will Kelleher: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Monday morning in studio after a busy weekend of action and some big Nations Championship news as well. Let's get into it. I'm Alfie Reynolds and it's a packed studio today. Back once again, Owen Slott. How are you doing, Slotty? Very good. Pleased to be back. Hooray. Exactly. By popular demand. Oh, yeah.

1:50Owen Slot: That's all I keep hearing.

1:52Will Kelleher: Also, Alex Lowe.

1:53Alex Lowe: Alex, how are you? All right, good. This is my studio debut, although not the first time I've done the ruck in this room because years back when we started it, this was our studio.

2:01Owen Slot: Oh, good old days. Alfie was still at school.

2:04Alex Lowe: There was no fancy screens.

2:06Owen Slot: It was in the Teddington under sevens.

2:09Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, dominating. And the voice you hear there is Will Kelleher. Hello, back in the studio. I missed it last time. It's quite fun with all the green around, isn't it? It's like being a wicked musical theatre show or something.

2:21Will Kelleher: Which is the most Will Kelleher reference that I think we could possibly have to start the podcast.

2:25Alfie Reynolds: Let's defy gravity on this pod, guys.

2:27Will Kelleher: Very, very good. But it's quite cosy with the four of us. I got it. I did get it. But thanks for explaining. No, I did get it. I was just, you know, I was going to move on.

2:34Alfie Reynolds: Some people might not be in the Venn diagram between rugby and musical theatre, but some people will be. I was ignoring you.

2:42Will Kelleher: Look, we've got, kind of as I mentioned in the intro, we're going to look back on the results of the weekend. We'll tee it ahead slightly to the matches coming up as well. Although, of course, we'll have our usual pod later in the week as well to do that in a bit more detail. Plus, there's big news this morning, the Nations Championship. We've got a little bit more news there, although maybe not quite as much as some people might think. We'll get into all of that. Before that, though, to each of you, of all the results at the weekend, most important result, what do you reckon?

3:08Alex Lowe: I'll say England. I'll go first and claim England. I guess we can all agree. But I just think for the project that Steve Borthwick has been building over the last 18 months, the run of defeats that they had where they promised to learn from, and then this run of now 10 consecutive wins, but a lot of them against mediocre opposition, but it was allowing him to build depth, to build the fitness of the team, which I think is obviously improved. He needed something that could bring all of those experiences together as a sort of flag in the sand of where England are. Almost to validate, talking to Maritoji afterwards, he made the point, it validates all the work they've done.

3:47Alex Lowe: And I think it moves England into a new phase now where they, and it's raised expectations internally and externally. They're going to go to the Six Nations, they'll be title contenders, not because of a one-off win but because it's demonstrated the direction of travel that they talked about a lot of they were working towards. So for that whole project, I would say it's only the ninth time it's ever happened. So I'll say England.

4:10Will Kelleher: You are allowed to agree, by the way. You can all say the same result.

4:12Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, it was more interesting if I picked something else, isn't it? And my joke answer that I put on our WhatsApp group yesterday was that South Africa have once again beaten the world rugby conspiracy of trying to send them off every time. So that's a great win for them. And we'll get onto that in a bit. but let's say Wales they've actually won a game have I just nicked yours I think it's obviously the right answer

4:32Owen Slot: Wales are tumbling and they're just desperately grasping for a foothold, something to hang on to and they've got something now they've got a World Cup that they can actually plan around and build towards and think we've got an ambition to get to a quarter final or something

4:48Alex Lowe: I don't think it makes any difference that they've won that game

4:50Owen Slot: they've just got something to hang on to

4:53Alfie Reynolds: they've got something to believe in And there have been some people criticising them for celebrating wildly a one-point last-minute victory over Japan, but I kind of think through all the defeats they've had at club and country level, all of those players, they're allowed to enjoy winning a game, even though traditionally they should beat Japan quite readily. But you don't agree yet, Alex, or no?

5:14Alex Lowe: I think they were dreadful and they were worse than that. They scraped a home win against Japan to allow them to not be in the third tier of the World Cup draw. I don't think that's the most important result of the weekend for me because it doesn't show that Wales are any better than we thought they were.

5:34Owen Slot: They just fortunately scraped a home win against Japan.

5:40Alex Lowe: Their run of consecutive defeats has ended with back-to-back wins against the Japanese. I thought J-Mo summed it up in his match report. they are still at rock bottom and they are still dreadful and celebrate because you've just played 80 minutes of a rugby game, you win at the end, you're going to celebrate fantastic but they were playing in their away shirt presumably to try and promote sales, I can't imagine anyone's left the Millennium Stadium on Saturday going well I've got to buy that white change kit because we've just scraped to one point winning against Japan

6:09Will Kelleher: I feel like we've stumbled upon the Wales game there are two schools of thought as you guys have all just outlined in that they just needed to win let them enjoy it good on like you had to get a victory there and then the other part

6:21Alex Lowe: of it as well sports day attitude of like well you've turned up basically yeah well not far off

6:26Will Kelleher: we've got grumpy alex this morning this is quite like it but then the other side of it as well is they were second best against a not very good japan side what is there to be excited about i suppose and i think it's both things are almost correct in in a way aren't they the one reason I'd say it is good for Wales is you look at their fixture list coming up New Zealand and Springboks to finish the year the Six Nations where's the victory coming from now I mean they've got Italy and Cardiff but right now you'd put Italy as favourites for that and they beat Australia didn't they and you're looking at it it's possibly 12 months time when they play Japan again that they're actually going to be when they're likely to get their next win so purely just from the point of view getting a victory then that is worthwhile I'll give you one

7:04Alex Lowe: one positive for Wales is that they finally picked Olly Cracknell and he's shown that he's a really good player and I think they should have gone and turned to him much earlier God how charitable of you played really played really well for Leicester has done it for Wales there you go there's a positive the negative is he can't play against South Africa in two weeks time outside the window 12 of that 23 man squad can't play in the game

7:28Owen Slot: that fixture is awful but can I just not try my theory against you again yes they were horrible they are rock bottom but if you're looking at a World Cup where you're third best in your group then if you're one of those players you're looking to the future then what have you got? I mean you have got nothing but at least if they're second in their group which is what they achieved by beating Japan they've got something to build on something to think because you're right they're going to get smashed for the next four games we know that at least, that's just not even a question mark anymore so if you haven't got anything on the horizon that you can build towards then then you know your spirit could just go all together but they have

8:07Alfie Reynolds: something now there's there's a bit of we'll get onto the nation's championship stuff in a minute but they've announced the fixtures this morning for everyone including wales and some of the welsh fans on social media have looked at them and gone can we not drop out and let georgia have a go like we're going away to south africa and argentina and then hosting new zealand again like don't fancy that at all next year i mean it's the state they're in isn't it poor wales have got to wait till 2032 for relegation to come and then finally get to play chili and the samoans and all

8:34Will Kelleher: that yeah well all right so Wales have taken the most important result of the weekend I wondered if any of you we won did we yes we won you don't get anything it's the only thing they've won

8:45Owen Slot: yeah what's your one Alfie come on uh I would go for England there we go were you thinking were you thinking we're getting Scotland into this conversation well the reason I asked the

8:56Will Kelleher: question is because I thought you could you could package up a lot of the results I think is the most important of the week and whether it be Wales whether it be England even if you want to look at it from an Irish point of view of kind of stopping the slide that we thought they were on I know the Wallabies are in a pretty difficult situation at this moment in time and I think you could have made a case for Argentina because and it's a charitable on our part of not having Mark Palmer on the pod this week to have to try and explain this one well that's the thing last week we were talking about you know one of Scotland's if not the most agonizing defeat and then this week it's

9:27Alfie Reynolds: got worse hasn't it gone hold my beer how about being 21 nil up and losing yeah it's extraordinary I mean, well, firstly, I just loved that game. And, well, again, get onto it. But I do feel like international rugby is in a really good spot. Like, you get a Sunday game like that, where in years gone by, might not have been a brilliant match or of high quality. It might have been close. It wasn't for 50 minutes, though.

9:48Will Kelleher: For 50 minutes, it was one of those games I was thinking, am I going to turn this off in a minute? It's a bit boring.

9:53Alfie Reynolds: But it was fantastic. The Pumas come roaring back. I'm calling their bench Los Bomberos, the firefighters who come on. I loved it. And Santi Carreras was amazing, wasn't he? I tweeted this out yesterday about the sort of wild year that they've had. So this is the detail of it. They've beaten Scotland when 21-0 down, put 50 on Wales, beat Australia away, beaten New Zealand at home for the first time ever, beaten the Lions, and then also lost to England twice without their Lions, and they had arrested a few as well, or had them injured. They've lost 67-30 to the box, and lost 28-24 to Australia when 21-7 up.

10:30Alfie Reynolds: so as people have said they're like the new which France are going to turn up isn't it? The Pumas but it was a sensational finish to that game wasn't it?

10:37Alex Lowe: Yeah Santiago Carreras man on the match off the bench Deserved as well he changed the tide It's the new thing right?

10:44Owen Slot: Come off the bench to win the game Did you see on about the 79th minute that commentary was talking about who was going to be man of the match and he said I think I might have to give it to an Argentinian That's generous

11:01Alfie Reynolds: but they played very well in the first half didn't they Scotland and then just collapsed that's so a lot like when a team does that that's really quite alarming but what is that down to

11:10Will Kelleher: because one of the things that will naturally happen off the back of this result definitely is the pressure on Gregor Townsend particularly with the Red Bull connection and there was worries that there was a conflict of interest there that he wasn't fully focused on Scotland and now they've had two really damaging defeats. I think in Townsend's defence, you're 21-0 up at home, you should make it 28-0 and they just didn't execute. I don't think that's on him yesterday, is it?

11:36Alex Lowe: Maybe he needs to get them some Red Bull. That last 20, they fell away two weeks running. Maybe that's his problem. He hasn't tapped into his connections enough.

11:45Owen Slot: I agree with Alfie on that. I think, one, the suggestion that he's not focused because he's got a contract with Newcastle, 30 days a year. And also, if you've got a team that you've just coached and they're 21-0 up, is it your fault that suddenly they lose their bottle?

12:04Alfie Reynolds: So I'm thinking back to a game that both of you would have been at, which was England-Scotland, that 31-7 back to 38-all. And there were times in the England-Eddie era where they would chuck away leads and stuff like that. And the narrative around that was like, was it more that it was Eddie's fault, in inverted commas, or was it this team that I think he described once who had grenades in the back of the van from 2015? So what did you guys report on that team at that time? Because they did chuck away some leads sometimes. Yeah, we definitely agreed it was Eddie's fault, didn't we? Everything was Eddie's fault.

12:37Owen Slot: There was quite a lot of focus on Owen Farrow and his ability to, you know, a famous sort of hothead, to use a stereotype, unfair comment, but he wasn't Amaro who could have gone 14 points down and gone, calm guys, we know what's going on here, don't change the plan. Owen didn't really have that, so there was a lot of focus on leadership at that point.

12:59Alex Lowe: I remember Eddie's explanation was the grenades in the back of the van. The fissures in the squad that had developed through that World Cup and after it, particularly a lot of the fallout from 2015, he felt that when that team came under pressure, they didn't trust each other enough. That was his explanation for it. It looked to me with Scotland like they were haunted by what happened to them the week before. And it's that classic thing of you get in your own head about, you see the tide turning. And what England demonstrated so well, I thought, against the All Blacks, is when they, you know, a couple of times in the game, they would compound error upon error.

13:35Alex Lowe: They didn't score early, and then the All Blacks hit them twice in four minutes. And then they just, they've got this process now, England, where they can park it and come out of the huddle with a new sense of control. And that's what's so important in sport, because it's that momentum thing. and what does momentum mean? Well, on Sunday, it meant that Carreras comes on and goes, right, well, we've got nothing to lose. Let's go for it. Scotland are desperately trying to protect something and they stopped actually playing the game that got them to that point in the first place, which is what had happened the week before against the All Blacks where they were 17-0 down.

14:08Alex Lowe: They were in the same position, got back, and suddenly went, all right, well, we're back in the game now and they went safer again and lost. And you could see the panic in the Scotland players. They were desperate not to make mistakes. because they were desperate to try and protect what they had against a team who were just coming at them. And that's leadership, that's experience, that's an ability to just park what's happened and start again with a kind of clear mind. And they didn't have that. I think the question around Gregor Townsend is interesting because he's got to... Yes, it's not his fault in that moment, but he's been in charge of a team for a long time.

14:41Alex Lowe: They had an opportunity to move on and the Scottish Rugby Union obviously took the call that they feel that he could get more out of a team that's been sort of, each autumn they get a win, like a good win against Australia, for example, and then you go to Six Nations and go, is this the Six Nations, where we'll actually see this team of pretenders actually achieve something, and then they end up mid-table again. The SIU obviously felt that Gregor Townsend had more to give to this Scotland team, and the indications are that maybe he doesn't. What do you think?

15:13Owen Slot: I just was interested in the bit that we were talking about, the psychology of being 21-0 up. And so two things. On the one hand, rugby teams talk about managing their way to victory, and at 21-0 you think you should manage your way to victory. On the other hand, you spend a lot of time working out what's the best way to beat Argentina, and you've spent 55 minutes proving that you know what the best way is, or was it 50 minutes, proving you know what is the best way to beat Argentina, because you've got a 21-0 evidence of it. But then you thought, well, the logical thing is carry on doing the same.

15:51Owen Slot: Like England were 14-0 down. If they'd panicked, they'd gone, oh, we've got to try something different or we've got to do more offloading. But they didn't. They said, we believe the plan, so we'll carry on doing it. And they prevailed. Whereas Scotland, they had evidence that they knew how to be Argentina. But as you say, they sort of slightly changed the way they played and they paid for that. Yeah, so I guess the flip side of the point

16:11Alex Lowe: I was making about Townsend, can he take this team further? Is that I think in the last two weeks, they've given him evidence of a problem that he must solve if they are going to get any further. This idea of understanding how to play an 80 minute game, which as we've discussed throughout the autumn is more critical now than it's ever been because teams are loading their benches for the last 20 minutes. It's, you know, it's all well and good being level after an hour. But as England found all through last year, that doesn't get you to the finish line first. And as they're demonstrating now, if you manage that last 20 whatever situation you're in you can win these games and I think that's the challenge that Gregor Townsend must now take on with Scotland if they are going to do anything other than finish mid-table in the Six Nations again.

16:53Will Kelleher: Tough times for Scotland no question about that we'll have a quick break up next we're going to be explaining the latest news that's come out this morning about the upcoming Nations Championship. Okay so news about the Nations Championship, which you may well have heard about for the last couple of years, really, but we've had official correspondence, I suppose you might call it, this morning. So if you don't know too much about it, I'll do my best to try and sum it up and then Slotty, Alex and Will can explain to me everything that I get wrong and how threadbare my description is. A cross-hemisphere competition, which is going to happen every two years outside of when there is a World Cup or a Lions Tour, essentially.

17:30Will Kelleher: It's the six nation sides, the rugby championship teams, plus Japan and Fiji. There's going to be a Northern Hemisphere and a Southern Hemisphere league table. So if you think about the fixtures, previously teams would have their traditional summer tour. So for example, last year, England went to New Zealand and then their usual November. The way it's going to work now is they'll have three fixtures in that July window, which is going to be the 4th, the 11th and the 18th of July next year. Then three fixtures in November, the 8th, the 15th, the 21st, where they will play everyone from the opposing hemisphere.

18:04Will Kelleher: So England, for example, next year is South Africa, Fiji, Argentina. They'll then play New Zealand, Australia, Japan in November, if that makes sense. That will all basically lead into a finals weekend where there'll be a load of finals fixtures, first versus first in each hemisphere league table, second versus second, third versus third, etc. And there will also hopefully at some point be a second tier. We don't know much more about that at this stage. we'll get into it how'd i do what more do we need to add pretty good and so this is a funny funny

18:37Alfie Reynolds: odd story really because there's the sort of very quick potted history of it is world rugby tried to create this tournament in about 2018 2019 and it got torched because people thought no we don't want promotion relegation from it because that would mean including the six nations in it and everything else so the first thing to say here is that the six nations results and the rugby championships results do not count this is only the northern hemisphere tours down south in july and them hosting matches in november that count towards it and push towards that sort of rider cup style singles day on the final weekend so then what happened was well rugby lost control of this tournament so the six nations unions and sansar so that's the rugby championship teams banded together and said we'll do our own version of it that is exactly the same but without promotion and relegation basically and without the six nations and rugby championship being part of it and we reported pretty much all of this detail here in about may 2022 didn't we alex cobbling together on a piece three years ago so what's actually new then so the thing the thing that's new now is that we've got a fixture list so we know exactly who's playing each other on which weekends next year the thing that we don't know yet is where all of those games going to be and what day of the week and what time the kickoffs are going to be and lots and lots of other things we'll get on to.

19:55Alex Lowe: Because Fiji are playing all their games in neutral territory. So England's game against Fiji will be in, we understand, will be in Pretoria. But they're also playing Wales and Scotland in next July. We don't know where those games are going to be yet. I assume Scotland won in South Africa. I think the Wales won in Europe, but not in Cardiff.

20:12Alfie Reynolds: And that's purely kind of logistics because people who've not been following this as readily as we have are going, wow, that looks incredibly difficult travel for people to go Argentina, then to Fiji, then come to South Africa. and the reason why they're not doing that is because that would be a nightmare for flights. So that's why Fiji are playing on neutral ground.

20:30Alex Lowe: And they're happy with that because it makes them more money. It costs Fiji money to host big test matches because of the entourage that big teams bring and having to put on the broadcast quality coverage, etc. So although it's seen as being unfair on Fiji, and in sporting terms, clearly it is, as a union, they're actually okay with it because it'll help earn them more money that they can then plough into the high performance system.

20:55Will Kelleher: And I think there's probably a lot for us to try and unpack here and maybe we'll get on to the issues or potential issues with this. Should we start with what are the potential good points in this? Why are they doing this? What are the things? What are the benefits? What are they getting out of it?

21:09Alfie Reynolds: The reason why they're doing it is to create more intrigue, jeopardy and meaning around what are essentially one-off test matches at the moment. And I know it's all banded as the Autumn Nations series now and was the Autumn Nations Cup. wasn't it when covid came around but now it's basically the next step of that is making it into a league table with a final with a trophy with something to play for every weekend it's not just wales playing fiji it means something for a wider context and seemingly that's more attractive to the fans they've spoken to to the players they've spoken to and more importantly broadcasters who want there to be a narrative rather than just like why is england australia happening this weekend which we sort of talked about a few weeks ago and we felt there didn't feel like there was any sort of wider context to it and it was a bit of a rubbish game.

21:56Alfie Reynolds: This is now going to be, this means something because that means England are now going to be ranked here and therefore play that match and therefore could lift that trophy, for example. And the way it's been phrased to me is once you put a wrapper around these fixtures, that already unlocks tens of millions of pounds for broadcasters because they can buy all of these fixtures on block. if you're TNT Sports for example in the UK and show them all and that's more valuable than these sort of random one-off test matches it's more beneficial also for some of the southern hemisphere unions particularly like New Zealand who don't own their own stadiums so the way England and the RFU make their money is that they like on Saturday have a massive game against the All Blacks corporate hospitality up to the eyeballs huge ticket sales 15 million quid out of one day the way it was meant to work always is that gets reciprocated in new zealand but new zealand don't own eden park they don't own the forsyth bar in dunedin they don't own the westpac in wellington so they don't get that revenue whereas now they get a guaranteed sum because they'll be part of this wider pot of cash that's made by the tournament itself there's lots there's lots of issues too but there are some examples and one more before we move on is that largely when you had the sort of july windows traditionally england ireland and wales would probably rotate between the southern hemisphere giants and england would go into south africa one year wales would go to australia ireland would go to new zealand and they kind of move it around and poor old scotland go oh who are we left with bit of argentina bit of chili bit of whatever whereas now they get guaranteed they're playing all the six other countries every two years here's a question for you where do you when do you think scotland last toured new zealand played a match in new zealand on new zealand soil 2000s mid 2000s oh it's a great quiz question isn't it is that the

23:52Owen Slot: best quiz question you got it is a good quiz i don't actually know the answer the last time

23:58Will Kelleher: scotland played a match in new zealand was the year 2000 i said mid 2000s away no 25 years so

24:06Alfie Reynolds: And they last faced South Africa away in 2014 and they last faced Australia away in 2012. So this solves that.

24:13Will Kelleher: So it gives them more of that. And I suppose you would also say for Japan and Fiji is another one of the major plus points here, Alex, is they are getting regular fixtures rather than the odd one.

24:22Alex Lowe: Yeah, and we do know a bit about the second division of this. I think it's going to be the Nations Cup rather than Championship. And that will include basically teams from 13 down. Essentially, they've expanded the World Cup to 24 teams. And so really what they want is two divisions in these competitions, which will represent the 24 teams will be at the World Cup. And again, there's a lot of criticism at the time this was announced at the 2023 World Cup that this would deny Samoa and Tonga the chance to play England at Twickenham, which is true. In these years, I think that there will be fixtures arranged in the non-Nation Championship years between the two divisions.

25:01Alfie Reynolds: So in 2027, 2029?

25:03Alex Lowe: Yeah, Tonga could come and play. I don't think England will end up going to Tonga. Never have to. So they will still get one-off games, but what this does do is guarantee a fixture list for developing nations, as they put it. When we first did this piece from Dublin, Will and I were chatting to executives from developing nations, and one of them was telling us they'd been in a meeting and had been touting around trying to find someone to play that November. they didn't have any fixtures in and it was I actually can't remember which country it was but let's say it was USA talking to Samoa going you got to do anything on November the 14th we haven't got a game do you fancy a game?

25:43Alex Lowe: It's like schools

25:43Alfie Reynolds: ringing each other up being like oh we've had a cancellation trying to play us

25:46Alex Lowe: What this does is the tier 2 is funded by World Rugby and it will guarantee a fixture list for the developing nations we're talking about Portugal and Chile and Uruguay Spain Uruguay, Samoa, Tonga those guys because rugby is rugby and you've got a kind of a privately owned competition at the top and then a world rugby competition in second is how do the two combine and the agreement was that the 2020 the 2030 competitions would end in a promotion and relegation playoff so that in 2032 you might have a team that comes up and a team that goes down there's no mention of that in today's official announcements but we're assured that it's in place but as with most of other things to do with this the detail is yet to come so i think i think there's benefits to to japan and and fiji and the developing nations in having guaranteed fixtures i think there's a there are downsides to looking at it from an england perspective rather than scotland perspective england now don't won't have july test series against the biggest southern hemisphere nations so this would replace

26:55Alfie Reynolds: a three test tour of South Africa which would probably have happened next summer right so it's would an England fan go I'd prefer to have three goes at the box and have three weeks in South Africa than South Africa one week Fiji in Pretoria the next and then Argentine in Buenos Aires

27:09Alex Lowe: yeah and I see an irony in the Sanzar Six Nations coming together to go we're going to replace tours and test series with a series of one off games because they count towards something bigger at the same time as New Zealand and South Africa have pulled out of the Rugby Championship in order to arrange a test series because they think that sells.

27:32Alfie Reynolds: Rugby's greatest rivalry.

27:33Alex Lowe: And they've cloaked it in a brand and all that. But there just seems to be a... If you look at that innovation, they think that'll sell to broadcasters and be a compelling product, which it will be. Four test series it's going to be, plus tour matches will be fantastic. Everyone's going to watch it. But they've decided to do that instead of the Rugby Championship. And now there's a new competition being launched which removes the chance for england to play a three test series in south africa or new zealand or australia which in recent times have all been excellent compelling test series and that's a shame and i think i'm not sure it quite stacks up they want both things at once

28:11Will Kelleher: and that is what i had written down as potentially one of the issues here of the question of how financially transformative actually is this going to be which i guess we'll find out but you look at some elements of it like when i first saw it and i looked at that so the finals weekend where you've got a double header on the friday double header on the saturday double header on the sunday which culminates in the first of the northern hemisphere league table against the first in the southern hemisphere league table and at first i thought do you know that sounds great like double headers it's going to be at twickenham next year in as in terms of the inaugural competition loads of rugby top teams that sounds great but then the more i thought about it i think you start running into issues with the fixtures not knowing what the fixture is going to be who's going to buy tickets for the sixth place get like it's a challenging yeah ticket market already um and

28:59Alex Lowe: they're going to be asking people to buy for friday night saturday and sunday in london which is one of the reasons why the fourth new zealand south africa test which is being played on you know international as an international stadium won't happen in london because that would be in september and the rfu and i guess as the as the the owners of the stadium are going to have to drive ticket sales for six fixtures in three days at the stadium in november yeah that's a lot as we've seen this this november there's yeah there's only even in london you could it's it could be quite a

29:29Alfie Reynolds: hard you can saturate the market yeah so if we were to put names to those fixtures if you were to do it this november so like assuming we were to freeze the rankings now and not wait for next weekend friday's match would be japan versus wales and then france argentina saturday you'd get fiji italy then new zealand england sunday you get australia scotland then the grand final would be south africa ireland and across those you go some nice days out there if you're a rugby tourist you're going wow i get to see x and y play each other and then a and b but is it however that

30:03Will Kelleher: for example uh ireland south africa is also the game this weekend so we could have a situation where it gets this great grand finals weekend and you're looking at you're saying they just played each other last week we saw it two weeks ago oh we saw that fixture at the beginning of

30:15Alfie Reynolds: november and it's just a lot of repeated fixtures and also let's imagine that saturday so that saturday twickenham is new zealand england bang here we go headline event with a warm-up of fiji italy and you go that sounds to me like the london doubleheader or or which everyone remembers and the and like a sevens weekend where the stadium is sort of never fully full and you get a bit of drift in through the day because i'd be very surprised if 82 000 people turn up for fiji italy because they'll probably all wait for the new zealand england game so there's a challenge there of making it look good on tv and in stadium yeah some of these games that people don't really

30:53Alex Lowe: care about so that fixture list you wouldn't you wouldn't know until the weekend before and let's say it was in place now england have just beaten the all blacks and it was an incredible day i took it felt like it didn't need to be part of anything else. It stood alone as an incredible sporting occasion. Twickenham was alive, great contest, England win, and then you get on the train home and you go, oh, they're going to play again next week. Have another go. Next week it's the final. So actually that now matters more than this.

31:24Alfie Reynolds: Well, it's the second-placing final.

31:26Alex Lowe: Do you know what I mean? Or it could end up being the final as well. That makes it a harder sell for the three games before it as well. Like, you're, you know, I don't, I have no problem with the repeat fixtures thing, because that's what a series is. That actually makes it. And it's what, it's where they've, with the Rugby Championship, they've got to a great place in that competition, where they play back-to-back games in one country for the first. They sort of do mini tours, don't they? Mini tours. And so you play each other one week after the next. And I like that, because you have to find a new way of doing it.

32:00Alfie Reynolds: So here's another little thing that we've learned today that I'd love to get all your thoughts on. So let's imagine the league table. We don't quite know how you're going to earn points. I assume it will be the traditional way of four for a win, bonus points, but we haven't had that explained yet. So then obviously you get your league table up until the third weekend of November where you then have your finals weekend. But in order to make it sort of mean something, in inverted commas, they are creating like hemisphere trophies. So all the results in the final weekend will count a bit like the Ryder Cup towards the kind of northern hemisphere score against the southern hemisphere and i've been told that there's going to be a trophy for the winning hemisphere captain brackets if it's the south japan cast at counters south japan have been recruited as a ringer from the north yeah make up the numbers so let's imagine this and i've asked people involved and gone like so what how's that going to happen and then maybe it was a jokey suggestion we get lindonald as our captain well yeah like the Ryder Cup yeah but it's like do you have a all the six captains sort of like all holding one little shield that's like well done us the north we've won eight six against whatever I mean that's the wrong score but you know what I mean or do you have like a representative captain for the hemisphere and then are England fans meant to be happy that like DuPont lifting the northern hemisphere winners shield or Khaleesi's doing on behalf of the all blacks I don't think

33:22Alex Lowe: I don't think you can apply a marketing wrap around this to such an extent that you're going to get Wales cheering on England just because we're going to do it for the Northern Hemisphere. Not quite rugby, that is it. That's so detached from actually how international rugby works.

33:38Alfie Reynolds: Let's flip it on to another sort of positive thing, I think, which was a point I was making to you the other day. International rugby is the best of the international sports, I would think. Slotty, you cover lots of other sports than us. I would argue that international rugby in its entirety is better than international football, international cricket. International cricket is really disparate and hard to understand, not very competitive. And then their World Test Championships are and Bangladesh play eight matches, England play 22. And we're meant to work out who's in the final. And it seems to be the preserve of India, Australia and England.

34:14Alfie Reynolds: And that sort of only mattering. You never really see like Pakistan, South Africa and stuff like that. and that's not including one day series where you go, I don't know who's playing where and when. And international football is obviously brilliant in tournaments, but away from that, friendlies are terrible. I didn't even know England were playing Albania the other day and all that. And that's a qualifier for a World Cup and they never lose them. So I'd argue that international rugby is the best of the other sports, if that makes sense. Would you agree? You love your rugby, but you also cover lots else.

34:42Owen Slot: Well, it's an interesting topic. we're going into the ashes which people I think might soon be saying is the highlight of the sporting year I don't know I can't wait for it then something else will happen and we'll say that's the highlight of the sporting year but that's only one off isn't it between two countries I mean when international football comes around people say it was a dead week people regard international football weeks as dead weeks apart from when you get to the tournament

35:06Alfie Reynolds: the office ring us up and say oh it's international football week so what's the rugby

35:09Owen Slot: I hear what you're saying you're saying that rugby plays all these friendlies and it's they're not really friendly and it's amazing that they mean so much and they're very competitive they've got incredible cut through people care like hell people spend 200 quid to go to twicken to watch them i mean it's kind of it is it is a big thing and i don't think other no i don't it

35:30Alex Lowe: isn't replicated like that also that's why i think this they've got to be slightly careful that that this definitely works to elevate it into a greater place rather than undermine it make it too gimmicky Yeah, I undermined the importance of that game experience we had at Twickenham on Saturday. Even their own finals, the way that it's set up, because they couldn't include the Six Nations in the Rugby Championship, it's only July and November. So you could easily, almost certainly, you're going to get a situation where, let's say hypothetically, South Africa are top of the Southern Hemisphere table with six wins out of six, and France are top of the European table with four wins out of six.

36:09Alex Lowe: they play in the final even though New Zealand could be second in the Southern Hemisphere with five wins out of six and have a better record than France or even six and have a better record than France but they don't make the final so you can't say that they're the best team in the year because you can't include the fixtures that don't count towards the nation's champ you can have a final that don't include the two best teams I actually agree with Will I think international rugby if you look at the six nations this year's rugby champ was unbelievable we've had some there's a few there's they're already at risk of having too many test matches as you know as you wrote about slotty these games outside the window too many games players are too tired they're losing their value but at its best international rugby is sensational um outside of world cups i think they just need to be careful that they don't actually end up undermining their own product by trying to make it elevate it beyond

37:05Owen Slot: what's necessary and make it gimmicky my view is is that um friend friendlies in inverted commas work really well um if you're making it into a tournament that counts that's probably going to make them even more valuable so i so i think i think that could be a good thing um we don't know how much money this is going to bring in but but potentially loads so the the part of the argument here is this will help see off r360 a bit but but where i'm agreeing with you completely alex is that finals weekend on the face of it looks fantastic or could be fantastic but if it's not fantastic if they don't market it well if there are lots of empty seats for the Italy-Fiji game that you mentioned Will then at that point everyone's going to be going shaking their heads

37:48Alex Lowe: I know what you say about it could elevate the one of games if they're part of a competition but people have to care about the competition they have to buy into it the Nations League as it called in football sort of exists but no one really knows who could name who's won it yeah how does it work and that's where they've got a challenge here to to make it feel like it's something that's important to win and by trying to to brand it as a battle of the hemispheres and you know we're going to get one over the those guys from the north and to have traditional rivals cheering each other on i just don't i don't see it and and very lastly i feel

38:24Alfie Reynolds: like it depends who wins it and how but it's going to be difficult to frame them as the world champions in averted commas and they are sort of purposefully not going to call them that because that kind of feels like it devalues the world cup but let's another another scenario imagine france have done a grand slam in the six nations and traditionally they don't take their best team down south so then they're the six nations grand slam champions next march let's say then in july they throw away a couple of those games with the second team and so then in november they're not really in the mix to be the nation's championship winners and therefore don't get into the final against South Africa and let's say England end up winning it and you go well who's the best then is it England is it France is it South Africa because they've just won the rugby championship so that I can see being a bit confusing or not very satisfying that you sort of go well we kind of got like three champions this year it might end up that you do get someone who's grand slams and nation's championships but I feel like that's quite unlikely it could work out great I feel like

39:25Will Kelleher: that first finals weekend is absolutely huge for them nailing that getting bums in seats if you have back or back-to-back nights friday saturday sunday where it's twickenham's really busy and buzzing all of a sudden it might be something that really takes off but that seems key i'm conscious of time i feel like there's loads more we could probably ask and go into with this i know we touched upon the tier two competition which we hope is coming we don't know so it's going to

39:50Alfie Reynolds: start in 2026 as well with essentially the 12 teams that have qualified for the world cup who aren't these 12 in the top division so they've all got 11 of those so far and there's a

40:00Will Kelleher: repoussage to find out who the 12th person will be and i suppose there is a whole load of questions there about where are those games played who's paying for it the logistics for those kind of

40:08Alex Lowe: smaller nations of how they get around the sense was they could they could all come together in a hub to limit travel costs and that kind of thing and maybe play at one or two hubs i guess well For example, the Represhaj tournament to find the last team

40:21Will Kelleher: who qualifies for the World Cup is in Dubai, isn't it? Yeah. And then promotion relegation? They kick that can down the road?

40:28Alex Lowe: Well, it was always slated to come in at the end of the 2030 competition with the changes to happen for the 2032 competition. In other words, they wanted to give two rounds of this

40:40Will Kelleher: before they had promotion relegation.

40:42Alex Lowe: To kind of bed in before promotion relegation. The sense is that the Tier 1 finals weekend Again, we'll be Twickenham, London in 26. 28, probably potentially Qatar. 2030, USA, just before USA hosts the men's and then the women's World Cups. 2030 would be the year when, if you finish bottom, there would be some, well, details yet to be decided, but some form of playoff, we think.

41:07Alfie Reynolds: Because I think that's quite interesting how they end up doing that as well. Because the same argument at the top we've just had about teams finishing on four out of six or six out of six, will count at the bottom won't it so for example let's say wales win two of their six games in the year but finish six of the sort of european six but in the other division japan and fiji lose all of their games do wales get relegated well presumably on that would you not have to

41:34Will Kelleher: relegate one from the north yes you would because otherwise you unbalance the hemisphere split

41:39Alfie Reynolds: the same number of teams in the in the hemisphere and then then like this is always the long-term debate about why you wouldn't have relegation is because then imagine a imagine wales is fixture list then if so that so let's say this scenario happens where in 2030 they still haven't got good enough they do come sick they do get relegated they lose let's call it a playoff game against georgia georgia come up so then in 2032 wales is fixture list is samoa hong kong tonga away and then usa chile canada at home i mean good luck selling tickets for that and making the the Welsh rugby public care about all of those fixtures okay uh a lot to try and cover send us

42:19Will Kelleher: an email with any further questions because I no doubt there will be a lot of them uh the ruck at the times.co.uk is the email address you can get in touch with us on leave the nation's champ stuff there for now next up we'll finish the pod by looking ahead to the weekend

43:01www.applepay.com shopping a breeze with Apple Pay.

43:33Owen Slot: today. Wireless plans require the purchase of a SIM card. Visit textnow.com for terms and conditions. When I found out I was going to be a parent, I immediately felt a lot of anxiety and worry. So I went on to BetterHelp to try to look for a therapist to help me with that. My relationship with my family and with my boyfriend and with myself were suffering. I really needed help. I was ruminating a lot. Really getting those thoughts out to a therapist and getting feedback was just life-changing.

44:01Will Kelleher: Discover what BetterHelp Online Therapy can do for you. Visit BetterHelp.com today.

44:11Will Kelleher: So we've spoken about Wales and their victory over Japan. We've spoken about Scotland and their gutting defeat to Argentina. We did our pod from the stands on Saturday after England's historic victory over the All Blacks. But Slotty, I wanted your view on that. You were there,

44:25Owen Slot: weren't you yeah i thought it was one of the greatest days at twickenham i mean simple as that it was it was incredibly loud you just you you you knew you're at somewhere special and um uh so it had that massive sense of occasion to what alex was suggesting earlier and i think lots of we've all been sort of watching and wondering at what point can we can we say we're convinced by the direction that England are going and it's it sort of that that was the that was the best evidence that we have that this is an improving team and the the way they managed it the the the calmness with which the way they dealt with going behind and the authority with which they went ahead just suggests that that is something that the England fans can get properly excited about.

45:13Will Kelleher: On Saturday night those that have listened to the pod you would have heard Will say let them enjoy it let it be about now be in the moment well we've had our big night out we've had our hangover if we're steve borthwick we've re-watched the game we've done our analysis it's monday morning as we're recording this if this is the the the performance and the result that really validates and proves this england project is moving in the right direction that they are really building where do they go from here if we're to throw it forward which i guess

45:40Alfie Reynolds: what we have to do now they've right in front of them is trying to beat the pumas who as we've listed earlier have done some pretty punchy things this year so they've got to do that to start with and not collapse like scotland did and do put them away and like argentina a very very good side these days so it's it's actually a great test for england next i think and i said on saturday night they should view this as they've won the world cup semi-final now go and get up to the emotional

46:03Owen Slot: peak again and win the final that sounded like a clive woodward thing i know i did borrow that

46:07Alfie Reynolds: so clive no but you know maybe you are the next clive well maybe yeah the challenge i suppose after that is how do they because this team's got an average age of 27 they've got guys who so jamie george is 35 but then quite a lot of the team are in that sort of 26 and ish to 30 band and then they've got a significant number of people who are 23 24 22 aren't they and it's growing those people to a level where that's not their best day they've got a grand slam in them at some point and they've got winning away in South Africa at some point. And I think one thing that we could discuss here is what positions maybe could the team develop in, i.e.

46:50Alfie Reynolds: literal positions on the field. I still feel like they need a 12 or more depth at 12. I think Dingwall played really, really well, but they're going to need someone to push him. The front row looks pretty sorted and the guys underneath them. Maybe they need another hooker. Where else do you think they could strengthen, Alex?

47:06Alex Lowe: I think they need depth at hooker and really both midfield positions because Oli Lawrence was outstanding on Saturday. But there's a reason they're talking about Tommy Freeman as a 13 because I think Henry Slade's England career is pretty much done. Oscar Beard's England career hasn't really started and he's now behind Tommy Freeman in the outside centre conversation. so I think they probably need depth there because the back three is stacked when you think of the players who weren't available Oli Slytham wasn't available George Furbank, Elliot Daly they weren't available they would be in a...

47:41Alfie Reynolds: Arundel's not playing Radwan's not playing yeah those three I mentioned Calori

47:45Alex Lowe: would be in a World Cup so Calori will come through so I think there's Hooker I think there's midfield nine? more depth at nine? or at least see a bit more of Raffi Twerk yeah I think I think they've got the players I think they'd like there to be a smaller gap between Alex Mitchell and the rest. I think Raffi Quirk is just a talent who we saw play against the All Blacks and we all hope will break through, injuries permitting. And then, you know, even number eight at the moment looks shallow with Tom Willis leaving. I think there are options there, but they're inexperienced. So like Ileone, who Borthwick really likes from Leicester, got injured, so hasn't been involved.

48:25Alex Lowe: Cunningham South is an option.

48:28Alfie Reynolds: I mean, Greg Fisselaer's been playing for the A's?

48:30Alex Lowe: Hoskins to 2-2 when he signs for a Premiership club I would imagine will go straight into an England squad. I think he qualifies by the end of this month I think. Yeah. For England. Three year stand down period. Qualifies through family. If he signs for a Prem club I imagine he'll go straight into an England squad.

48:47Alfie Reynolds: And is there, I mean look maybe this is too long a debate for today but is there a bit of a thing, a bit like the Benard Janssen van Rendsburg situation that isn't yet resolved? Should England really be picking in inverted commas an All Blacks reject when they've got so many back row why do they need someone who's not good enough to make the New Zealand team?

49:06Alex Lowe: Right, I mean Charlie Conningham South is an All Blacks reject in that sense born in England grew up in New Zealand didn't really get anywhere came to England within like one game he was in England under 20s he's an English guy who grew up in New Zealand so Tutu qualifies for England

49:23Alfie Reynolds: I would say that's slightly the Cunningham South thing is slightly different because he actually has a familial link and has grown up in parts where Satutu is

49:32Alex Lowe: a proper import

49:34Owen Slot: but who's importing him? it's not driven by the RFU no no no

49:40Alfie Reynolds: it's different to Gibson Park and Bundiaki

49:42Owen Slot: I don't think England have had a project player like that apart from Brad Shields they paid him out of his contract that wasn't a project player because he did have heritage but that was RFU driven we want this guy here If Ben Elsenja, then who's playing?

49:59Alex Lowe: Well, that's exactly it. So I agree with you.

50:02Owen Slot: They lack depth there.

50:04Alex Lowe: It's Ilioni, if he's fit, uncapped. Cunning himself, who played against Fiji.

50:11Owen Slot: Or Henry Pollock. I'm not convinced by Cunningham in the South.

50:16Alex Lowe: So there are two or three positions where England's depth is phenomenal and enviable for other countries.

50:23Alfie Reynolds: And you can see the people in the seventh and eighth place down the line.

50:26Alex Lowe: But there's also two or three where I think they need to fast track. And there's a, you know, when John Westby wrote a piece during the Ashes Rugby League about Herbie Farnworth and how...

50:36Owen Slot: Yeah, I love that. That was great.

50:38Alex Lowe: England Rugby League player whom Eddie Jones, when he was England head coach, had his eyes on. And the general view is that if he was to switch codes, he'd be an ideal inside centre for England. But at the moment, he plays... Who's the next 12?

50:55Owen Slot: Atkinson at Gloucester Atkinson in theory

50:57Alfie Reynolds: He probably would have played if he was fit And they might not have gone for Dingwall At what point do you go Dingwall's not available, Atkinson's not available

51:05Owen Slot: Owen Farrell's available I think one thing that struck me Is that we've gone through this autumn series And we've hardly mentioned Owen at all

51:14Will Kelleher: So questions for England moving forward Then off the back of that All Blacks victory Argentina being the first one This Sunday I think to finish off Ireland South Africa this weekend I know there's a whole slate of other fixtures Wales New Zealand probably hope and pray France Australia is an interesting game as well but Ireland South Africa has this lost a little bit of the gloss of where this fixture was a year ago wasn't it off the back of that series where they had the two game series the matches were split they then didn't play each other last November you were thinking I can't wait till till they meet again and it's still a it's still a massive fixture very telling I think for where Ireland actually are, but it doesn't quite have, Alex, that kind of best two teams in the world going at it.

51:56Alex Lowe: No, that was... We had that in Paris last week, but I think you're right. What's interesting about it is it will reveal a lot about Ireland, more really than the New Zealand game in Chicago where none of those players had... I think they played one URC game and they'd been in camp. They didn't play to their maximum. They beat Australia and looked pretty good against Australia, but Australia are on the wane fast. End of a long year. Something's not, something's unravelling there quite quickly. They can't wait to get on holiday, can they? No, they can't. But there's, it feels like something has come unstuck there a bit since, you know, they beat, they almost beat the Lions in Melbourne, epic game, beat the Lions in Sydney, beat the Springboks in Ellis Park.

52:40Alex Lowe: And you're like, this is a serious team building here. And they just can't. I was reading some messages from, some tweets from Quaid Cooper, about what's going wrong. And we've said it before, Joseph Akusu-Sualiti, they're not using him. He's anonymous in games. Something's not right about their attacking structure. That's what Quaid Cooper was saying. And it's actually obvious when you watch. So Ireland beat them comfortably. It doesn't tell you very much. A bit like England beating Australia comfortably two or three weeks ago. Didn't tell us a huge amount. This game really will because the Springboks will come in tooled up.

53:14Alex Lowe: They are working the world's against us narrative as Will said earlier. They're aggrieved that shouldering opponents to the head gets you a red card. They're working that narrative. That's what South Africa do. They've won World Cups on the back of it. They'll come in angry at the world, tooled up, ready to demonstrate how good they are. It's an enormous challenge for Ireland, who we think they have some positions that they need to grow depth in, as we just discussed with England. They're changing. There's a changing of the guard that feels like it's about to become necessary. And we're seeing it a little bit like Bundy hasn't been starting, didn't start against Australia, for example.

53:54Alex Lowe: A huge, huge challenge for Ireland. I imagine the box will be ferocious.

53:59Alfie Reynolds: Can I slightly linger on this spring box against World Rugby case? Because I'm finding it like, fine, there can be conspiracy theorists on X, Twitter and everything, TikTok, World's Against Us, that's fine. But when it becomes respected journalists and other people saying without caveat that world rugby are actively trying to send off spring box during test matches that is lunacy there's utter tin pot lunacy like tinfoil hat time it's ridiculous like walk me through all those people who think that world rugby have a diktat to send off spring box during games walk me through how that conspiracy works who's in charge of it why would they do that what would be the point i find that unbelievably stupid thing they'd have to have a

54:48Owen Slot: committee and a subcommittee before they agreed on where are the world rugby offices dublin

54:54Alex Lowe: there is a conversation to be had about whether these incidents deserve red cards yeah i was gonna say 20 minute red cards i agree with that that's a different thing because and i and i would be on board with that conversation because i think we've had enough time with cards being shown to but for incidents where behaviours can't change because it's happening so quickly. And I think Eddie Jones made this point in Cardiff at the weekend, and I agree with him. The removing players from the field isn't necessarily the answer because I always go back to the Ben Urbano while in the Prem Final. He's not trying to do anything other than make a tackle.

55:26Alex Lowe: And he gets slightly wrong and he's sent off. I think there's a real conversation around whether these all need to be red cards or 20-minute red cards. I agree with that, but you can't argue. The rules are they are. I don't believe, perhaps the straight red in Italy could have been a 20-minute red, but it was definitely a red of some sort based on the rules that they are, in my view.

55:46Owen Slot: I'm just going to rewind a bit to Ireland, South Africa. One of the reasons I'm really looking forward to it, I mean, the whole Ireland, where are they theme is really interesting. But I just kind of feel that ever since August, we keep on refiltering the lines of what it was all about and what it meant. and if Ireland do really well against South Africa, even if they don't win, then I kind of think in a weird way that's vindication for Andy Farrell with his very green Lions team. Whereas if Ireland continue, as we think they may be, to decline and, say, South Africa smash them, then you go back to those Lions and you go, hang on a sec, it was full of declining Irish players and at the same time you've got this growing England team.

56:33Owen Slot: I just find that that whole kind of reassessing of what the Lions is all about it doesn't stop and it's really interesting

56:40Alex Lowe: yeah I agree because of the journey Australia have taken exactly the journey England are taking the journey Ireland are taking yeah I agree

56:47Alfie Reynolds: I guess it's just a snapshot of that period and they won that series they can just go whatever it didn't matter because we won so the only comeback

56:53Will Kelleher: to that would be yeah but you didn't win it 3-0 but I agree they might already feel vindicated because they're a winning Lions team so you know you're going aren't

57:00Alfie Reynolds: you Ireland South Africa I am a belter

57:02Alex Lowe: yes yeah

57:02Will Kelleher: and then hot footing it to Twickenham Sunday good weekend that good weekend you just need you just need rugby on the Friday as well Alex and then you're full but this is what the Nations Championship

57:12Alfie Reynolds: bring us all Friday night rugby exactly exactly

57:15Will Kelleher: okay so pod for you coming later on this week Thursday or possibly Friday just because England's game and is later so maybe expecting the team on the Friday we'll wait and see pod later for you in the week and then it'll be the final weekend of November for some for some yeah until Wales Scotland Tonga is happening

57:33Alex Lowe: out the window without half their team

57:35Will Kelleher: which we will be speaking about but Slotty good to have you back on Alex very jealous but enjoy Dublin and I'll see you at Twickenham Sunday and likewise same with you, we'll see you later in the week as well thanks for listening

58:02Owen Slot: I really needed help. I was ruminating a lot. Really getting those thoughts out to a therapist and getting feedback was just life-changing.

58:11Will Kelleher: Discover what BetterHelp Online Therapy can do for you. Visit BetterHelp.com today. Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer. They tune in every week. They trust the host, and that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience. The problem is, you just haven't been introduced yet. We're Acast, where that introduction happens. As the world's largest podcast marketplace, we let you browse shows, see who's listening, and book host-read sponsorships or run your own ads all from one platform. Transparent pricing, real-time data, complete control.

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