THE RED LIONS, EPISODE THREE: Rancour and revival; 2001-2021

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2:12I don't think I ever took myself to that level again in my career, even winning the World Cup. You realise then this is like a different scale to Wales, this is a different scale to the Ospreys, this is bigger than I've been involved. I think in my heart I knew it was wrong and it troubled me a lot. Second test, half to win in New Zealand and there was just this energy in the stadium which was just like, it felt like something special was going to happen. From the Rock, this is the Red Lions. A special podcast series covering 75 years of the British and Irish Lions through the voices of the players and the pages of the Times and Sunday Times.

2:56Episode three, Rancour and Revival, as the Lions carve out their place in the professional era. And they got it wrong before they got it right. The 1997 tour had hit the perfect sweet spot when the old amateur touring ethos was still alive and well and it led to one of the great tours. But it took until 2009 to properly rekindle that spirit of 97. For many of the players, the 2001 tour of Australia was a great letdown. But it was also the start of the Lions as a commercial and supporter phenomenon. Fans travelling in their tens of thousands, that sea of red in Brisbane. And the Test Series went down to the final seconds.

3:360-1 was four years on, jumping on the back of 97, where I think the Lions brand was sticking its chest out a little bit to say, hold on a minute, from we're going to disappear to we are a damn good outfit. And there was a fantastic bunch of players in 0-1. That will be probably, for lots of reasons in 0-1, will be maybe the only regret of my rugby career because that group of individuals that that team were so much better than than losing that that's what listen you have to take the result as it is in australia 1-2-1 but you know they were just it was a it was a great great set of lads i'm at Dawson line at number 685 and I toured in 1997 2001 and 2005 unfortunately it was so professional that they forgot about the ethos of the Lions and actually why people have got excited about the Lions whether it be fans or players going back to the 50s why they're excited about the Lions because they're playing with elite players from all different clubs and countries but they're socialising and they're getting to know and they're having a fun time and they're doing some old school touring but with some epic rugby thrown in and O1 was very very heavy on the rugby and very little socialising and therefore we didn't necessarily get to know each other as well as we we could have done and I think you know as was shown in tour three we were we were shot to pieces there were lots of injuries super super tired we were you know hanging on for uh for dear life Lenehan's first choice for head coach was McGeachan, but he was unavailable having just taken charge of Scotland.

5:23The only viable alternative was the Wales coach Graham Henry, who would later coach against the Lions with the All Blacks in 2005. But he never really got the Lions. The players felt they were flogged and grew increasingly unhappy. Divisions opened up. The management were absolutely doing what they thought was right. But I think it was just a timing thing, unfortunately. We weren't professional for long enough to realise that actually less is more. And on this occasion, more was becoming less. But understandable because you've got the elite, therefore you can do a half-hour defence session, half-hour attack session, half-hour team session, half-hour kicking session, half-hour passing session.

6:07like every single day and then you've got your weights and then you've got the, you know, and it was just carry on, carry on because they're elite, they can handle it opposed to, well, let's, you know, let's cut it all down and keep it to the basics and let the key decision makers really, you know, those superstar players, your Dricos of this world and Rob Howley, let them run the game. The first two tours I went on really were, I think, the analogy I'd give, I think it were guinea pig tours in professionalism. Obviously, 1997 was an unbelievable tour into South Africa, and even though the game had turned professional, it was still an old-school amateur feel about it.

6:43Whereas, you fast-forward to 2001, the game was still very much in its infancy of professionalism, and nobody was quite sure how to manage a Lions team at the end of a long season. I'm Martin Williams, Lions cap number 7-1-2, and I toured in 2001, 2005 and 2009. Particularly in that decade, in the 2000s, the only thing you had to lean on were the old school tours, which were the choking cheese. You cannot explain to people how different those tours used to be in length and in the day-to-day. You look at 2001 and by no fault of Grahams or any of the coaches, we were doing two and a half hour rugby sessions at the end of a nine, ten month season.

7:27The boys go over 60 minutes now and everyone has heart failure. The players are training too hard. So I see it first-hand now as a team manager. You have all these coaches who are in charge of specific areas. And obviously, if you're a coach, you want your specific area to go well. So you want to maximise the time you have on the training pitch with the players. And I think every coach wants their piece of meat, really. And it was the old adage. I can remember when the game did turn professional. It was as if, like, right, you're professional. you can train all day every day, you know, but it doesn't work like that.

8:00Hi, this is Donald Lenehan. I'm Lion 598. Obviously, I was manager in 2001. They thought they were professionals, but the English cohort were two or three years ahead of them in terms of what. When some of those guys were complaining that we were training too hard, you'd pass the gym in the evening and all the English players, unsolicited, on their own leisure time were in the gym training. They were two or three years down the road ahead. I mean, Ronan O 'Gara will tell you they learned what being a professional. The Welsh fellas were streets behind at that point in time. To be fair, we'd only had three or four Scots.

8:40The other fellas sort of, and no coincidence, England won a World Cup two years later. So in effect, what we were trying to do is bring the rest of them up to the level of the English fellas. the English fellas didn't need to be but the other fellas were kind of off the pace so you were fighting we were in that transition period when Andy Farrell gets his Lions group in there they're all professional they can all play in a multiplicity of ways they knows how to play against a blitz defence or a drift defence or a thing so really you're fine tuning and the level of intellectual knowledge that they have if anything what the modern group need to assert is the importance of the culture of the group and leaving your ego outside the door before you go in.

9:27And you could be a brilliant player with England, but you might only get two games on this trip or three games. And that's the challenge now way more than the rugby side of it. Matters came to a head in the newspapers. In a tour diary published in the Daily Telegraph on the day of the first test, Dawson said the management were treating the players like kids and that 12 players had gone off tour. He was quickly labelled a traitor. The media people said, look, this article is out. I remember even saying for a while, look, I don't even want to read it for a while, but then you had to address it.

10:00I still think Dawson was wrong to do what he did. We've never spoken about it and I'd come across him in a media context and we're polite to each other and blah, blah, blah. But I'd like to think maybe at the passage of time he might look at it differently. I might find out when I read your piece. Maybe he's totally different. Anyway, the bottom line is you can't, as Zeddy or Sullivan would say, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Donald Lennon was the one that wanted to send me. He's the guy that said, I'm going to send you home. And Martin Johnson basically said, no, you're not. That's ridiculous.

10:32It is how we're all feeling. He shouldn't have done it. He knows he shouldn't have done it. But, you know, let's move on from it. You know, Jono was absolutely in my corner there. I mean, there's no way I shouldn't have written it. I mean, that's definitely one of my life's regrets. but I suppose that was born out of frustration that that's how the players were feeling at the time you know I was in a I was in a stage of my career where I was in my late 20s you know I'd been on a tour before I was playing for England I was playing well for England I thought you know I thought I should have been playing and Rob Howley was picked and I was just I was just in a very bolshy stage of my life for whatever reason.

11:13And I've got many, many diaries that I kept throughout tours. That was just something that I did. But that's certainly one that was a mistake for it to be published. There had been a good number of line supporters in 97, but 2001 was on a different scale. It was the birth of a phenomenon and it caught everyone by surprise, including Captain Martin Johnson. That was, for me, was the start of the modern Lions. Australia, nicest people in the world, but they'll do everything to make things as awkward as possible for you. And in relation to that first test, I had gone out a year in advance, did my recce, everything was decided.

11:53We were playing in the Gabba, but like you, the Brisbane Lions were playing there the day before. and at the last minute I was told, oh, by the way, we were supposed to be in the home dressing room, which was the Brisbane Lions dressing room. And I reckon they knew this from day one. They said that they were taking the other dressing room, but the Brisbane Lions said nobody tugs off in their dressing room, only them. They tried to put us into a shoebox down in the corner, so I said, no fucking way are we tugging off. And in those days you did most of your warm-up in the dressing room. You hadn't the intricate, even 2001, you hadn't gone to that stage yet.

12:30And I remember knowing we searched the whole place and at the opposite end, we found this huge space underneath. And we literally turned it into a dressing room in the 24 hours before the match. But as a result of that, Australia were down on one end of the, and bear in mind, this is an oval, so it's a big space. They were down on one end and we were at the extreme opposite end. And I remember saying to Johnna, they want to toss, but we're going to, I said, fuck them. we're not going to their dressing room and they won't come to us so i've agreed that we'll meet them on the halfway line we'll do the toss there so johnny yeah i'm 100 % in agreement i said i'll walk down with you so when we went in the place was kind of maybe 20 % full but by the time we came up out of the bowls i still remember johnny's face and we were like it was all red a sea of red and we walked to the house john eels had to come up from the other side we thought i can't remember who lost the toss, but we just looked around at each other and said, fuck me.

13:25And Jono, who's not a guy who gets overly excited, almost sprinted down the stairs into the room, called everyone together and just said, lads, you have no idea what's out there. And, I mean, it was one of the great lines. Tess, the colour, the singing, Jason Robinson got that wondrous try, Brian O'Driscoll, the waltz. You know, Driscoll started that day. That to me, without trying to be overly biased, was the start of what the Lions has become.

13:57Brisbane was claimed for Britain and Ireland. The world champions were downed. Could even fizzy os lager taste honey sweet? The whores went to find out. Unforgettable. The second test swung on Richard Hill having his cheek broken by Nathan Gray and Johnny Wilkinson conceding a try from an intercept pass. The series was settled with the final play of the third test when Justin Harrison, labelled a plank earlier in the tour in another newspaper column, this time by Austin Healy, stole a line-out with the Lions pressing on the Wallabies line. Many of the Lions were on their last legs. Some had played 50 games that year.

14:38Many of the real culprits were 10 ,000 miles away from the Olympic Stadium last night. Others would have been closer to the action, with their snouts happily in the trough of corporate entertainment areas as they watched. The truth is that the Lions were beaten before they left Europe. So do we want the Lions? The answer is blindingly obvious. The Lions are the summit of all our rugby lives. There were more than 20 ,000 people from Great Britain and Ireland following the tour. The world revolves around Lions tours, and it always has. Never again should we send a British and Irish Lions party abroad when it is so beaten up in body that it begins to fall apart as soon as it lands We said earlier in the series that all successful Lions tours are built on the strength of the midweek team McGee can always call Jason Leonard the greatest Lion for the support role he played In 2005, Clive Woodward tried to strip away all of the traditional Lion spirit He went ultra professional one squad split into test contenders and midweek players with two coaching teams look sir clive we just won the world cup with england and you know the attention to detail that they put into that tour was incredible for all five we were in the veil actually i can remember we had a weak year because we obviously the played argentina before we left and even to the opening meeting you know we walked upstairs to the room up here and you know a big music blasting and you had your folder It was to a different level of professionalism, particularly.

16:14Perhaps the English boys were used to that, but we're not something as a Welsh player. You'd seen that sort of detail. And obviously, I just looked at it from my team manager's hat. I don't know the cost perspective. It must have been through the roof. Woodward even commissioned a Lions anthem called The Power of Four. And he drafted in Alistair Campbell, the spin doctor from Downing Street. I remember one of the lads whipping his tracksuit bottoms down in the press conference. you know stealing his phone and texting tony blair and all that sort of stuff which was brilliant you know great content and great stories and that's actually the sort of stuff that the lions love and it brings you together but there is not a chance i could tell you who was on that tour in 2005.

16:54Ended up being 50 players. Yeah i mean i'm not a chance and that that's terrible i mean that's that's really really bad um but there were all good intentions it was all about taking it to the next level and the coach is coming up and and you've got to admire the the Lions coaches side because it's a it's a big deal for a coach to take it on and and put their mark on the Lions like a player would want to put their mark on the Lions shirt a coach wants to put his mark on that sort of Lions tracksuit but ironically a little bit like on reflection when you're you're wearing your Lions shirt, you've just got to go in and you've got to fit in that, you've got to fit in the jersey.

17:36It's not your jersey, you've got to fit in with it and it takes a certain type of player to play in a Lions jersey and I think it probably is the same with the coaches. It isn't just about, we're doing it my way, you've got to fit in with the Lions way. The split you could tell from the coaches, there were so many numbers, there were so players that it was a difficult one to manage and like say I've still got a t-shirt actually the midweek massive t-shirt I don't know if you heard that one that um because the midweek won every game with Ian McGeachan as a coach and the midweek has won every game I think it was Austin either Austin or Dose got t-shirts made with all the results on the back and like a band t-shirt yeah which shows a split he was like all right the midweek boys are all right um yeah so yeah it was an interesting tour pretty grim well it wasn't grim I tried quite a positive and you try and look on it was an experience but yeah it was a tough tour that was tough eight weeks The Power of Four let's do a minute on that that was slightly cringeworthy I'd forgotten about that until you mentioned it earlier actually yeah cringe but in fairness again you wouldn't hear this very often you were Welshman trying to defence to Clive Woodward trying to defence to Clive you just you're just thinking outside the box because he was trying to think of all the ways, right?

18:56How can we pull everyone together? Again, I think we were painting. For Team Bonding, they had us painting, or we had to paint our own little individual square, probably the size of this table, and then you bring it all together, and it was a lion, so it was all teamwork. Then we had to put, I think we were giving sketches to act. Oh, really? Improv sort of stuff. Improv, without the drink as well, which was cringe. who was good at or bad at that I just remember Benny, Benny Key I just remember he was really good at it very, and you see on his TV now he's obviously excellent at that as well but I can remember it was a little bit again, trying to think we've only got a short space of time, how can we build the boys together so yeah, the Power of Four was just one of his ideas to try and bring everyone together and yeah, it was don't ask me what the words were I've got them here if you want them No, you're right.

19:52From the four corners of our lands, we're united hand in hand. Together, we're stronger. We join and proud we stand. Now the day has come. We are one, standing tall for our lion's call. We're stronger. Together, we are the power of four. Oh, God. Sung by Catherine Jenkins at the stadium in Cardiff. Before the Argentina game. Not sure anyone knew the lyrics. No. Even though it was pre-loaded on your iPods, I think. Yeah, it was on our iPods, our little branded iPods we got. for those listening who were younger, Google iPod because they won't have a clue where they are. But yeah, it was, again, didn't quite work out, did it?

20:28In fairness to Clive, but yeah, it was, well, I sent shivers for me. That is actually how cringe it was. The title of this episode mentions Ranker, a reference first to 2001, but also 2005, where in the first test, tour captain Brian O'Driscoll was spear tackled by Kevin Mayalamu and Tano Umanga. A targeted attack? It certainly kicked off in the papers. Advised by Alistair Campbell, Clive Woodward gave a midnight briefing after the game on the disgrace of it all. The players were less fussed. It wasn't a pretty tackle. I'm not convinced that they sort of went out to injure him to get him off. I'm not convinced by that at all.

21:04And of course, then it then turned into this sort of pantomime of legality when deep down the reality was the Lions knew they were up against it because of how good New Zealand were. We didn't have a lot of answers for them. The real sad thing was that Brian Le Driscoll lasted a few minutes as our captain and inspirational player and didn't have a chance to lead the Lions for the rest of the series. If you get away with stuff, you get away with it, don't you? They probably targeted Dricko in terms of running on the field to stop him playing, but I'd be amazed if there was a pre-determined chat to say, right, let's take him out, let's dump him on his shoulder and put him out.

21:44It just happened that way. However disastrous the Lions were, and they were utterly abysmal in 2005, sometimes these tours give birth to world stars on the other team. Step forward, Dan Carter. His record 33 points in the 48-18 second test victory, two tries, four conversions and five penalties capped one of the greatest individual performances in a Test match I remember his first cap was actually against Wales two years before in 2003 and I can remember Steve Hansen famously telling us the night before that game telling us, boys they've got Debitant playing at 12 today we're not quite sure how good he is so try and target him and I think he scored a hat-trick against us that day man of the match so it was no surprise to us and he was unbelievable I'd say unplayable wasn't he I'm sure he'll put it down to the platform he was given.

22:32Just the whole team played us off the park, but he's generally world-class. And he didn't play in the third test then. People forget that, don't they? Luke McAllister came in and Mark wasn't far off just as good as well. So just, I think, yeah, that night Carter was, I wouldn't say he was a privilege to be there, because obviously you're on the receiving end of it. But, you know, that was probably him really announcing himself on the world stage as, you know, I agree, I'd say the best players ever played. The tour finished with the Lions, blackwashed in New Zealand again. 3-0. In the end, the failure was abject and total.

23:06The whitewash came in torrents. The Lions ceased to exist if you make the assumption that they had ever existed in the first place.

23:21Once again, the Lions were in crisis. They'd lost more than a test series. They'd lost their soul. and who better to rekindle it than Ian McGeekin, the coaching genius of 1989 and 1997. And the fact that Gerald Davis, the great Welsh wing, was made chairman reinforced to the players the importance of reconnecting with the ethos of the Lions. You kind of know straight away, if he's your head coach, for want of a better word, he is sort of Mr Lions and so he was very, you know the history goes with him, you know the history of the jersey and that's how Gerald was chairman so he was one of those ones where you knew what was needed to be done without having to ram down your throat it's hard enough going to South Africa anyway unless you go out there and you're tight and you've got a good group and you've got boys who get on with each other then you're screwed really I'm Adam Jones I'm Lion No.

24:19755 I toured to South Africa in 2009 and Australia in 2013 12 years earlier that 97 tour I was so brilliantly won by the Lions by the Gascos drop goal in the last minute of the second test and the fly on the wall which had probably brought the buzz back to the Lions I think to get picked on that 0-9 one and 1974 the sort of history of stuff is not lost to me and touring with Lions to the soccer is pretty special. What I will say, I think once you've done it once, it's, you know, as soon as you want to do it again, it's don't condone drugs and don't take drugs, but it's like a drug, you know, and you've won it all the time.

25:02Under McGeacan's guidance, the 2005 midweek team had been unbeaten, but in a definite reaction to how that tour was planned, the 09 Lions were old school. No cliques, no splits, loads of boos. There was no dickheads, everyone got really well. You'd heard stuff about Dricko, he was flying into everything, he was a really good tourist, and I think he's even said in 05 they didn't really. You'd kind of look on the dinner table to see who we were going to be sat next to, and then avoid it. But then this one was just, everyone's in it together, and we were supposed to go to America's Cap team building thing down in Portsmouth with a dinner in the History Museum in London.

25:46Then we were supposed to go down to there early morning to do an all day. And if I remember correctly, it was a lot of, is this the best idea? And then I remember we all had texts or phone calls to the room of O 'Connell and McGeekan saying, everyone needs to be in the bar by this time. And then, you know, the doors are locked until this time. And I think that was the best thing for her, I think. Just sitting in the bar for beer. You know, people sort of shackled, come down, so to speak. and yeah, we just sort of got to know each other that way, I think and that was probably the biggest thing, I think, for that tour.

26:22I'm not saying it would have been indifferent if we'd gone sailing but I'm pretty sure, you know, to have a day off on Wednesday just kind of recover and then train on Thursday was much of a more sensible thing to do than pretending to be America's captain. I think the opening game of that, we played the Royal 15 at Altitude in Rustenburg was absolutely brutal game and when he just got through that, just won it. and it was slowly, so we weren't great leading up to the first test. It was all about sort of peeking and I think that's what Gats and Sheldon Geech is like, look, the midweeks aren't important but it's all about peeking for that first test and the first 20 minutes, obviously South Africa blew us away in that first one but epic three tests and it was a brilliant series to be part of.

27:05The 09 series was an epic. It began at Kings Park Durban, the Beast, Tendai Mtawa era, dominated Phil Vickery in the scrum and Adam Jones was sent on early to rescue things. I'd never played Lions before. I didn't know... I hadn't played at Kings Park till that point, I couldn't remember how steep it was. Like, it's crazy steep, the two stands. So that was eye-opening, seeing all the Lions fans and seeing all those there and, you know, really... Not that we outnumbered them, the Springboks, but it was, you know, certainly, you know, we certainly seemed like the pockets of the red and the noise.

27:41the first test. Yeah, the one that got away, I think. Ugo Monnier had left two tries begging and the lines were 26-7 down after 50 minutes. The Springboks held off a valiant fight back to win 26-21 and move ahead 1-0 up in the series. The second test might just be the most brilliant and brutal test match I've ever been to. Jones was pitted against the Beast from the start. Going into the second test, I wouldn't say I was expecting to get picked, but I was obviously done OK in the first test and Vicks hadn't done so well. so yeah then it's a whole different board game and the sort of the guys like you guys the media the pressure the South African fans you know I just happened to be going up against their sort of new kind of their new sort of superstars so that was very if you're talking about emotions yeah I was pretty nervous I always remember I got interviewed by Andy Howell and Eddie the late great Eddie Butler before I played the Sharks in one of the warm up games and just those two so like in this sort of setting But then when we played the second test in the Cullinan Hotel, we were at the press conference.

28:46There must have been sort of 12 cameras, 50, 60 journals, whatever else. And all kind of wanted to ask, how are you going to deal with the beast? And fairly enough, we'd obviously done really well the week before. You realise then this is like a different scale to Wales. This is a different scale to the Ospreys. This is bigger than I've been involved. There's a couple of things. I always remember the drive-in was crazy. because it's like, I think, down this big, long road, there's the cars and the brides and the fans throwing stuff, swearing at you and stuff like that. Not unlike Twickenham, you know, driving down the car back there.

29:26There's a sign, if I remember, saying the altitude is real because as you walk on the pitch, it is. You can feel it. Like I'd played, obviously, played in Millennium Stadium and some big games at this point, but I'd never heard a noise like it when their anthem and the sort of Afrikaan bit kicks in. I'd never heard a noise like it. It was so loud, it was so, like, hostile, and it was just, it was like, you could almost, like, sense hatred there. And it was, it was, it was like, oh, shit, this isn't, like, anything I've experienced before.

30:06I wasn't aware of this until my mum passed away but 7-8 years ago and my best man was there Andy Newman, former Auspice, second row and he was sat next to him in the crowd and my father was so nervous he was gripping Andy's leg to the point he was like, fucking hell, you've got to let go of me because his nails and his hands were sticking into Newman's leg and he was so nervous for that scrum and the line that he almost couldn't cope with it and yeah, fortunately it went right. We got a penalty off it and I don't really remember much about my career, I remember games, but that was one sort of moment I do sort of remember about it all.

30:38Scott Berger was shown a yellow card in the opening seconds for eye-gouging Luke Fitzgerald, who'd come into the team for Monier. Berger would subsequently receive an eight-week ban. You should have got a red card in there, you know. You should never go to his eyes. The game was brutal. Brian O'Driscoll was concussed in a hit from Danny Rousseau that registered a force of 27 Gs. Jamie Roberts and Tommy Bowe went off injured, Gethin Jenkins had his cheekbones smashed and Jones' shoulder was dislocated by Bacchie's butter.

31:10The Lions led 19-8, but the box drew level at 25-all with tries from Brian Habana and Jacques Faurie. And then... What a kick. What a match. O 'Gara. his bandage reflecting the injuries that the lions have suffered in this match oh it's a penalty

31:40why

31:45oh no the decision is for taking the man out of the air why do it because that's what test match Rugby does to you. Poor Rog. I still feel for him to this day. I'm sure Rog, when he put the up and under up, he was thinking about winning the game. And I think that's how he's always lived and played his game, really. I could see what he's trying to do. It's fair enough going for that high kick, but then just get out the bloody way. He's going in here. I think the actual thought process to kick it high was fine. Yeah, and it was... Still a hell of a kick to win it, though, isn't it? I've found Mone staying in fairness, David.

32:19by this young man. Is he about to write his name into the rugby history books? He most certainly is. And that's it. It's official. The wait is over for South African rugby. The Rainbow Nation has found its missing pot of gold. I think what I just said to this day he'd just been sort of knocked out as well hadn't he? So he was a bit dazed in terms of his thought but yeah, it was one of those who lived by the sword, who died by the sword it could have gone the other way, couldn't it? The decision of going high could have ended it back in our hands and we might have scored so that's the worst way to lose a game on the Hooter sort of thing but to lose a series, Lion's series on the Hooter, having been so close I remember that changing room was in Pretoria It was probably the quietest I've ever felt the changing room was a brutal place There have been few greater test matches than this The staggering epic in Pretoria And there can surely have been no more biting the cruel outcome in sport The Lions playing with desperate heroism And yet no little skill and power Against a team that was always meant to be too good for them dominated large chunks of the match, but died in the series when Mornay Steyn kicked a penalty from inside his own half in the last act after Ronan O 'Gara had made a clumsy challenge.

34:00On the final whistle, most of the Lions sank to the ground, and some did not move for ages. The hearts of all those who have followed their fitful fortunes and of any sporting neutral must have gone out to them, And yet the truth is that such was the incredible run of injuries they suffered in the second half that the next problem is to find 15 players to fulfil the fixture in the final test in Johannesburg on Saturday. It was the most savage final act imaginable. It was far less than the Lions deserved. And it was the day when their vast courage and ill fortune vied with each other so compellingly and in the end it was ill fortune which prevailed.

34:48I was in the hospital, I'd been taken in the ambulance and Richard, he was the masseuse, he came to the hospital with me and I kind of came round and I said, oh, is it back in? And he said, oh yeah, and he kind of explained to me how the doctor put it back in and I was like, oh, fuck it all. I was definitely glad I was knocked out for that then because by all accounts he was like, I was lying on the bed, my arm was off the side of the bed, he was under the bed with his feet hooked on the other side and yanking my arm in with a strap to put it back in. Because obviously the muscle was sort of spasmed and obviously the joint was pretty locked in.

35:22I didn't have a clue of the score, so I think I remember I must have asked him the score and he explained what happened. It was more shocking than anything because we were so comfortable and we were so on top of them. Yeah, it wasn't a great one to wake up to. For all their heroes and some extraordinary individual performances, none more so than Simon Shaw, handed a 10 out of 10 rating by the Sunday Times, the Lions had now lost seven consecutive tests. They were on the brink of another sweep. But 2009 confirmed a Lions tour didn't have to be victorious to be considered a success. The Lions signed off with a third test victory at Ellis Park and faith was restored in the concept.

36:04You call us, it is, South African Impro, the strongest team up for that third test. It was still in Alice Park. It was still a wee. I think the fact that we won that third one, just give the Lions something to cling on to and go into Australia four years later. Even deeper at the heart of this victory was sporting heroism. The togetherness of these Lions in adversity has been almost beyond praise, and there is surely no-one on the planet who can begrudge them this thunderous victory. One start, one win, so where's the common denominator? Yeah, again, there's twists of fate. I was going to start the first test and Stephen Ferris got injured.

36:44Tom Croft came in at six and I remember Gats telling me, he said, look, we can't play you and Tom Croft together because you're too lightweight, which is against South Africa. So David Wallace came in at seven and I had to sit on a bench. So it was big for me. It was my ninth test, Lions test, and I hadn't started one. So to get a start and get a win was, yeah, a really memorable day for me personally, the one in Alice Park to win there was pretty special you can imagine how hard it is after your 2-0 down the series has gone to try and motivate it's the end of a 12 month campaign you can just imagine how to motivate players then to get up for that is difficult some have already switched off they're on the beach but I think Geach and Gats in fairness they reiterated how important it was that week it was not about yourself doesn't matter how disappointed you are it was all about that jersey and leaving it in a better place for the next group that come along and I think that's where that group in 09 can look upon themselves with a lot of pride really what they did throughout that tour and over the test series because I think the 09 tour definitely left the Lions in a better place for the rest, pretty successful decade then wasn't it after that?

37:48To quote McGeekin, that third test victory had ensured that the Lions would carry a winning jersey forward for four years. By 2013 in Australia, Warren Gatlin was head coach and Sam Warburton was captain. I think it did help carry momentum. if the Lions lost 3-0 you start worrying back then whether commercially will people still buy into the Lions even the players always will still going to be financially viable at all so that win actually was really important in helping potentially keep the Lions alive Sam Warburton, Lion number 800 tourist on 2013 and 2017 which we felt a bit of that pressure in 2013 to win because if we didn't win in 2013 then you go to New Zealand in 2017 followed by another South Africa trip So there was a bit of pressure to win, but I certainly did feel that momentum would have carried on.

38:37In 2009, I just got my cap from Wales. I was involved in the Cardiff rugby team. And when they came back from that tour, Jamie Roberts, good friend, come through the academy with him. Lee Halfpenny went on that tour, youngest player. Andy Powell was on that tour. Martin Williams and Gethan Jenkins. So there was five Cardiff lads who all came back from that tour. Obviously, 05, I was in school, so I didn't know anyone who obviously played for the Lions. but I always had the Lions as this incredible thing that I wanted to achieve. But when the lads from 2009 came back, particularly after the final win, which you could tell was a big thing, they were bouncing with energy.

39:10And the way they talked about the Lions tour just made me think, oh my goodness, I have to get on 13, you know, like I have to. And when they just talk about how fondly they got on with it and how good it was to just even win a test out in South Africa. Like Henry, Gatlin was from New Zealand, but he'd been steeped in Northern Hemisphere rugby, coaching at club and international level. He'd been an assistant coach in 2009. He got the Lions. It was a good mix of players. No one you wouldn't want to have a drink with. No one you wouldn't have lunch you would have a coffee with. So, again, with the tradition, went to Ireland, had a big night out in one of these, had food in Jamie Heaslip's restaurant, and then went out to this bar, and just everyone had a massive song.

39:50So sing a song, get up on stage, sing a song, and it was a good crack, yeah. What did you think? Oh, Copacabana, Barry Manor. Yeah, okay, yeah. Do you fancy giving it a go now? No. Don't push it like Will. Warburton was captain of a Welsh heavy squad with the final make-up influenced by England's capitulation at the Principality Stadium where they were going for a grand slam on the final day of the Six Nations and lost 30 points to three. On the 2013 tour, that was the 125th year anniversary and I went as one of your duties for captain but it turned out a really nice experience. I actually went to the grave in Australia is where one of the players from the first tour died.

40:31And we went to his grave. And it made you realise, one, how old the Lions were when you see on the grave, you know, 1888. Crikey, we've been going for that long. And then when you go into the dressing room, and I love it when they make the effort to put the players' names down who've played for Lions before you. And you do think, oh my God, this is what I'm following. And it's really important to connect that. And I did a quick fire the other day and they said, well, you've got to name a player from each tour and you've got to go back. as far as you can i went all the way back to the 60s because i i was i was always intrigued by lions and history um and it's just such a special surreal thing to be part of so i think the history is very important if you just turn up to the lions and you didn't know what happened 4 8 12 50 years ago it doesn't have the same meaning like when you put that i'll never forget the first ever game i played in 2013 not test games a game on tour and i slipped on that uh red shirt because I bought a hat when I was like 14 and I remember putting it away after a couple of months and I'm never going to wear one again until I wear the real thing.

41:33And then I remember slipping on this real red one. I remember looking down and seeing the crest on my chest and it was like the single proudest moment of my life knowing that I'm one of the best players in Britain and Ireland which is such a... Sometimes you say it out loud to try and believe it and it still sounds quite surreal when you say it like that. So I think knowing the players who have been in that team before you and then you're suddenly following their footsteps and maybe, maybe someone in 30 years' time might think the same thing about you. It's quite a surreal experience, a special experience at the same time.

42:03It's amazing. Every Lions tour has its heroes. George North scored a brilliant try in the first test and then there was the iconic image of him hoisting Israel Folau onto his shoulder in the second. George North threw the first tackle. They tried to tap him but couldn't. North goes on the outside. North for the corner. He's been unleashed. I thought from 2011 to 2013, prime George North is up there with one of the best wingers, if not the best winger that I think we've seen. Like, devastating. I don't think anyone had really seen someone who was 6 '5", who could move like George. That big, that agile, that fast.

42:41And it was a bit because that was, I think, quite personal to George, those moments, particularly the Folau one, because everyone was talking about Folau in Australia. The greatest athlete that the rugby game has seen. Me and George, like, George won't say this publicly. Me and George used to do like, we used to talk to each other a lot on the pitch and we'd look like we're joking around during breaks of play and the end of matches. But we'd say, what are you saying to each other? Now, you all have to believe you're the best when you get to that level. Some people might not verbalise it very much or act confident.

43:07But me and George would secretly do this and I'd say, mate, you're the best winger in the world. And he'd be like, yeah, I know. And I loved his confidence. And when we went to Australia, everyone thought Israel Folau was the best player in the world. And George was like, no, he's not. I'm the best winger in the world. So that's why when that moment happened, I think that was quite I never really heard George speak about it really but I think that was George just being like take a step back I'm the man you know and I loved that and I think it was the same when he pointed at Genya you know like that's probably just all that emotion coming out going no I'm the man not you and but that's kind of what that's what our mentality was going over there Australians were known for whooping and cheering and wouldn't call it arrogance but a high level of belief in themselves but that like wound us up and we were like no no no we're we're the best team here like not you boys so I think when you see those little moments of George of his try pointing again yeah then the Israel fallout that was that was just us saying putting our sort of stake in the ground being like no no we're here to play the Lions had won the first test but lost the second and when Gatland's team went to Sydney for the decider they were ready to blow the doors off and that meant making big selection calls.

44:16The prospect of Warren Gatland not selecting Brian O'Driscoll had been discussed here but swiftly rejected. No one thought it could really happen, especially not with Sam Warburton and Paul O 'Connell injured. So the bombshell, when it was dropped, was met with stunned disbelief. Not only was he not captain, O'Driscoll, the sole survivor from 2001 and the captain in 2005, was not even in the squad. After eight Lions test matches, O'Driscoll's Lions career was over. Gats is without doubt one of the best coaches I've had. I find he coaches a certain style and if he has players at his disposal who can deliver that style then he's very efficient at it.

44:54And I feel, I haven't had this confirmed, this is my feeling, first and second test when you look in 2013 it felt like that selection had influence from other coaches. So for example Tom Croft at six, great player but not a Gatlin six. Lydia is a Gatlin six, you know. But Tom Croft played. There were selections like that across the pack and the back line where I remember thinking, I reckon there's been, you know, you can imagine some people are fighting in certain players' corners. Third test, I remember Gatland spoke to us at a team meeting. And this sounds a little bit crude to say this, but this is just what is said in meetings.

45:25We beat Australia by physically battering them. And that's our game plan. We're going to physically batter them. And they won't cope. And that was the game plan. So when you look at the selection, it felt like Gats just put his neck out and went, I'm picking this team from 1 to 23. which is why there was Jamie Roberts, John Davis, not even Brian on the bench, Manu on the bench, Sean O 'Brien started, Corbisiero, Hibbard too. All the enforcers played. If you're an enforcer, you played. And it worked. It worked. So that's why I think Gatlin knew exactly what his style was. And if it was delivered, then normally you'd win.

45:58Even the tour manager Andy Irvin thought it was harsh. I was completely surprised because obviously Brian was the superstar in those days. and I thought he had played pretty well in the matches. So it was a surprise, but then you look at what happened in the final test, both centres played very, very well, but in many ways I felt sorry for Brian because such a legend, and he was dropped, there's no two ways about it. He wasn't injured or that, but it was a hell of a call by Gatland. Because I was so sad next to Driscoll on the bus afterwards, so you don't really know what to say. more than like, shit, sorry about that type of thing.

46:37And I've said this a few times now, that the way he trained that week was unbelievable, really. He was four Lions tours, never been dropped from anywhere. If he wanted to sort of sulk and go off tour, then if anyone's entitled to do it, then he was. But he didn't. Alex Corbusiero led the assault on the Wallabies, destroying their scrum and sending Ben Alexander to the sin bin after 20 minutes. The Lions cut loose and won 41-16 to complete their first series triumph since 1997. The James Bond actor, Daniel Craig, was there to join in the celebrations. By all accounts, he was there in 09 as well, but I'd gone home by then.

47:15He apparently came to the hotel and bought X amount of bottles of champagne or whatever after the third test. So yeah, he was pretty cool, to be fair. You kind of felt sorry for him because he was getting dragged from pillar to post and photo-year people grabbing him and he was just smiling, chatting. I know he's James Bond, but he's not the biggest guy in the world when you're in a changing room full of rugby players. And there's champagne going everywhere. 16 years and enough savage disappointments to sink a battleship are behind them. They have won. They have done so convincingly in style in the record books.

47:56Concept vindicated, coach vindicated. Gatland and Warburton teamed up to lead the Lions again in 2017, aiming for a first series win in New Zealand since 1971. A big one for us in 2017 was we lost the first game against Auckland and then we were playing the Crusaders, who were the Crusaders, arguably, along with Toulouse, maybe the greatest club team in the world. And beating the Crusaders, I found, was a massive statement that, oh my God, the Lions are actually going to be competitive. Everyone thought the Crusaders were going to walk over us. you know and so I think that that winning is the crusaders and then we put the maori to the sword I think the vibe in New Zealand completely changed they thought the maori going to beat us the crusaders going to beat us but yeah the crusaders game was a big one and I remember going back into the changing room and we had that choir which people you know know about all the home nations had a song and the whole group sang all four songs off the top of our heads one after the other and that's when we realized yeah we're here to play you know when we first arrived in New Zealand in 2017.

48:53I remember coming off the bus, off the plane, off a long-haul flight, and we were putting our baggage through, and there was a New Zealander going, mate, they've got the guillotine out for you boys, you haven't got a chance. Like, being serious, not even, like, breaking a smile. You boys haven't got a chance against us, because they were back-to-back world champs then as well, so they had a bit of an arrogance, I think, about them. And then I did a press conference the next day, and then a woman asked me a question. You might have even been there. A woman asked me a question. She said, Sam, there's been an alarming study.

49:18We went out into the public in Auckland, and we asked 100 people to name five Lions players, something like this, and they couldn't name more than three. What do you think? Luckily, Gantz stepped in for me. And I remember I finished that press conference. I went out to a stand and I remember Mako Vinopola was sitting down. He went, I was a press conference worker. I went, you never believe this one woman just asked. And I told him what she said. And he went, she'll know exactly who we are once we beat him. Like not even trying to be cocky, just like dead pan. And then we were about, there was about five lads there and we all just like nodded.

49:48And we were like, we have to beat them. Like, we've got to walk away from here, beat them like it was nothing. Come, 2-1, walk away like, yeah, that's what was meant to happen. The Lions lost the first test, but scored one of the great tries, with Liam Williams and Elliot Daly combining for Sean O 'Brien to touchdown. And they levelled the series with a magnificent win against the world champions in Wellington, helped by the dismissal of Sonny Bill Williams, and a performance from Maru Itoji that had the Lions fans singing in the rain. I remember going driving to the stadium and seeing the amount of red and I thought oh my god this is awesome like and you imagine most fans we travel to go for the second test because that's like there's always something on the second test so like there was I remember thinking there's a load of fans and I was just walking around for the warm-up really greasy day for some reason even when it's not raining there it just feels greasy the fields down in New Zealand you know I remember just like walking around the stadium with my kit on just doing like the pre-warm-up you know guys just out loosening up before the formal warm-up starts and I was like this is massive like second test have to win in New Zealand and there was just this energy in the stadium which was just like it felt like something special was going to happen the actual game I can't really remember a whole lot but I do remember there was a um there was a line out towards the end and we stole it we stole it and then we kicked up really long and you might remember there was things like Bowden Barrett then tried to chip it back and they lost the ball and the game finished which It's quite poor decision-making for Bowdoin Barrett.

51:14But before we did that, the reason they were in their 22 is we made a line-out steal. Or we secured possession. And then we kicked it. Now, normally, I remember thinking you're out on your feet. But I remember the kick chase from that kick. Everyone was so desperate because we knew we had to win. But then the whistle went. We obviously won. I remember thinking, flipping out. The energy that the subs brought on. And this was proven with the statistics after. The game actually went to a higher tempo in the last 20 minutes than the first 60. Which never happens in test matches. Never. So we realised we had a good team to do well in that tour because we had a bench who could come on and actually make the game even faster.

51:46Normally at plateaus, it stays the same all the way throughout, but we actually could take games to another level in the last 20. The deciding test at Eden Park was level at 15 all, entering the final moments. Ken Owens thought he'd been penalised for an accidental offside, giving New Zealand a chance to win the game and the series. Enter Captain Sam Warburton. It's what an accidental offside. We go for scrum for black.

52:17I know it has become one of those iconic moments, and I didn't think it was really a moment, I thought it was just people just clutching onto something, but I didn't think it was a moment until I actually spoke to Wayne Barnes. I remember chatting to him, and somebody brought up that Lions decision, because it was quite raw then, it was only a little bit of time before. And I remember saying to Wayne Barnes afterwards, I said, oh man, that wasn't because of me. Because I only asked a simple question. and it was really nice to hear from Wayne actually he said Sam he said trust me I speak to the referees that happened because it was you because you've always been well managed and treated people with respect I sort of had this lovely moment because like my mum always used to say to me manners don't cost a penny and always speak to people politely and how you want to be spoken to and you're much more likely to get what you want and I always went down that route and I never even you know you see some poor role models playing football when they're captain shouting and abusing the referee I always wanted to be respectful to the refs so when he said that I thought oh maybe my style did work you know you still always have this imposter syndrome and doubt yourself so I guess like with that decision luckily because I went over he was willing luckily he was willing to listen but I think if I had maybe approached him 10 times out of half would he have listened probably probably not so I always go down the mantra as captain less is more and save your chips when you really need them you know not just for any or penalty decision so that's um it's kind of turned into one of those iconic moments i remember seeing the headlines after like warburton saves lion series that was my last game of rugby i remember saying to gats mate i'm at 70 here i'm not sure if i'm going to come back i had like six body parts strapped uh missed the first test for injury or coming back from injury and i did retire from there because i was like i don't think my body's going to get back to what i want it to be so i played well but didn't play that well and then i read it was about that penalty decision why i say the series saying in commas and um I was like oh that's how I treat every referee decision but that because that was so high profile I didn't realize it was being watched so intensely given the circumstances in the moment playing the game and I said to Kieran I said if you could toss a coin and go golden point extra time would you do it he said absolutely I said me too and I actually spoke to someone from the Lions recently and they said what do you think of your golden point I said you have to do it got to be visionary let's do something different imagine the drama every breakdown every tackle would be like under the microscope first points where it's a try drop goal penalty would win the game but i remember joking around with him at that moment and um but i you don't want to share a gold medal in the olympics so like i do think it was special in the sense that that picture was probably one of the great probably like modern day sporting pictures because i don't know you wouldn't get an fa cup and get man united beating man city and then they all mix in at the end it just doesn't happen in sport where two teams that gigantic just mix in at the end so That was special.

54:52That's where, like, for the game, it was brilliant, the draw in a way. But in future, if it was my decision, I would have, yeah, I was gutted. I still am to this day, I think, oh, we're one point off beating New Zealand in their backyard. And so we complete our journey with the Red Lions on the most curious and challenging tour of all. The COVID restriction strips the 2021 tour of everything that makes the Lions special. The games were played in the same stadium against many of the same players in front of empty stands. 2021 was when you pulled the shirt on and when you played the matches, it felt the same as if you were playing for the Lions, but it didn't feel like you were on a Lions tour.

55:30Hi, I'm Dan Bigger, Lion number 821. I went on the 2017 tour to New Zealand and the 2021 tour to South Africa. It's a Lions tour, not just playing a match for the Lions, you know. It was, you know, you stayed in the same hotel. There was no real travelling. We then, you know, went to Cape Town for three tests, same stadium, no fans, no atmosphere. It was soulless, really, you know. because Lions tours are all about the supporters, the mini-groups, the friendships, the fans in the stadium, etc. So I suppose when you compare that to 17, where it was atmospheric, supporters everywhere, mini-groups, socials.

56:05I just remember Kyle Sinclair, because the only thing we could do was basically have a few drinks together in the hotel. And Kyle Sinclair said, this is the driest tour since 81 type of thing. And he was just trying to make a reference of a bit of a joke and things about it. No, nothing to do. Unless you played a bit of golf, that was the only thing you could do in the hotel but yeah, it was so less compared to other ones The Lions won the first test but things rapidly turned toxic Razzy Erasmus, South Africa's director of rugby filmed an hour-long savaging of Nick Berry's refereeing performance and it all got ugly It was, but people can say what they want about Razzy I actually like it he's a little bit like a Mourinho character in terms of does anything he can to win and the players who play for him absolutely adore him, worship him so like for me i didn't have a problem with the video like the video was i was all right with it like that's that's part of the game you know what i mean that's part of high level sport and being in the media etc etc for me i wasn't really wasn't bothered by that what i was bothered about is probably i think we were nine six up at half time and we just couldn't fire anything in the second half i think we all thought that we think you know okay this could be done we could be in here you know so i think for me it kind of yeah like i said the second test was a really poor game of rugby and i think it was just about two teams who probably didn't want to lose that second test instead of two teams really going out to win it.

57:22So I think from our end, we had to try and get it back. And we're a penalty goal either way from winning a series or losing a series. And in elite level sport, which the Lions rugby is, it's those fine margins which will make a difference and define success and failure. Ultimately, the Lions were not good enough to beat the box. Mornay Stain was the heartbreaker again, kicking a late penalty to win the series for South Africa, just as he had done in 2009. It is bad enough being haunted by the ghost of a sporting horror for year after year. But when the same ghastly spectre revisits you in precisely the same form, then doom is in the air.

58:05It was a bitter moment for the Lions, and even those on the field too young to remember staying in 2009 would have been badly hurt. and we were reminded yet again how minuscule are the margins in touring with the Lions. From the sidelines, the tour could look so forlorn compared to the red storm it deserved to be. There was not a minute of any match when you could look around and not bemoan the missing, not one. You can only hope and pray that in homes and rugby clubs and bars across the Four Nations, there was joy that this bizarre battered tour went ahead. It was arguably a success as epic as the Test series being played at all.

58:55They sacrificed so much to play the Test series. They lost the series, but not their pride. The baton has been handed over from Gatland to Andy Farrell, who has the responsibility in Australia this summer of adding to the Lions' legacy and protecting their spirit of adventure. When you first start playing for your club, you want to then get international. When you get international, you then want to probably get to a World Cup, depending on how the years fall. And then you want to get, obviously, to the Lions as the highest you can get to. I think something that's so special about it is once you get there and you get on tour, it's the experience that you have there.

59:30But it's kind of, even though I've been on two tours before this one, but you never don't want to get there, if that makes sense. It's not like, oh, I've been there, I've done it now, I can kind of just go back to normal. it's kind of like you want to keep getting there and you want to keep being at that on these tours. So that's such a special thing to do and I think whether it's your first, your second, third, last, whatever it is, it's an amazing thing to do and it's probably the best, for me anyway, one of the best experiences you can get in rugby. And I'm fortunate for this to be my third one, but the first proper one, it's a full tour with fans and family over there.

59:59So all three of mine will be different experiences, but in good ways. South Africa was awesome. You probably got to know the boys on tour a lot better because you were in the hotel the whole time. and Lafayette was a brilliant country but we didn't really get to see it. So it'll be different this time but it'll be good fun. The story of the Red Lions has been told but a new chapter will be written in Australia this summer. The Times and the Sunday Times will be on tour throughout and neither of us, Alex, are going to be flying home early with homesickness. What stories will we be reporting on?

1:00:25What history will they make? And what does the future hold in store? What is next for the British and Irish Lions? The mystery of the Lions tour is being demolished all the time. It's been torn apart all the time. Of what I do see, it is largely about money. I don't know why they're playing Argentina in Dublin before the tour because that's another test. And you know, that's wrong. We shouldn't have to do that. I do feel that commercialism, I think it's gone too far. I've only missed two Lions tours since 1989. I was supposed to go on this tour, but I can't for a variety of reasons. But I could have made it happen if I wanted to.

1:01:03But I've chosen not to. If I'm 100 % honest, like that thing, the announcement to sacrosanct that thing in the O2 for me, I thought was gaudy. I felt sorry for Mara Atosia being asked to get into a pair of shorts and a tee and carry the line down through. I would have absolutely, Mara, if I was Mara, I would have said absolutely thrilled to be the Lions captain. Honoured to be there and answer your questions, but I'd be in the suit and shirt and tie that Faz and Yian were in. You've got to kind of keep the traditions, the behind the scene traditions as much as possible. Whether it's a beer, whether it's, you know, in the changing after the game.

1:01:39And I know straight away cameras in there and people are checking stuff on Twitter and all the, you know, TikTok and all this type of stuff. But, you know, there's certain bits of it that still should be the same as in 1971, in 1974, in 1989 and 97, in 2013. Where, you know, after the game, you sit there with your mates or you sit there with these guys who two months before you even know they are. you probably hated them but now you're like sat next to them you've just like worked your arse off for the last 80 minutes so there's stuff around there where yeah as much as everything has become modern the more traditions you can still keep from years gone by then that makes me pretty happy I remember reading an article about why on earth are the Lions not playing against France or touring France I mean if that doesn't happen at some stage that is probably going to be one of the greatest sporting misses ever.

1:02:30It would be insane not to do a Lions tour of France and to put it on the roster. Lions in France could properly knock the... it could catapult the game of rugby globally into a different stratosphere. I think it could be that important.

1:02:54This is the Red Lions from the Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. The series was produced by Alfie Reynolds. Sky Sports is the only place to watch every match of the British and Irish Lions 2025 Tour of Australia in the UK and Ireland. All three tests and six tour games, live from June 20th to August 2nd. Watch on Sky Sports or available to stream with now.

1:03:54We'll be right back.

1:03:58Grainger, for the ones who get it done.