THE RED LIONS, EPISODE TWO: Politics, punch-ups and professionalism; 1977-1997

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2:40Only John says, I need you. And I left that lunch at Irvine and I said, right, I'm going on this journey. I don't think I ever took myself to that level again in my career, even winning the World Cup. You realise then this is like a different scale to Wales. This is a different scale to the Ospreys. This is bigger than I've been involved. I think in my heart, I knew it was wrong. And it troubled me a lot. Second test, half to win in New Zealand. and there was just this energy in the stadium which was just like, it felt like something special was going to happen.

3:16From the Ruck, this is the Red Lions. A special podcast series covering 75 years of the British and Irish Lions through the voices of the players and the pages of the Times and Sunday Times.

3:33Episode 2 Politics, punch-ups and professionalism After the glories of 1974 the Lions have a lot to live up to How do they capture the essence, the spirit and the success of the past? Now there is a recurring Lions theme through the decades I think it was always going to be a very, very tough act to follow I'm Andy Irvin, Lion number 518 and I played on the tours to South Africa in 1974, New Zealand in 1977 and South Africa in 1980. New Zealand is a really tough place to tour. The conditions aren't as good. We were pretty decent on a dry ground and a hard pitch but in New Zealand it was just a slog.

4:20Ah yes, the infamous Kiwi weather. The worst winter for 100 years knocked the stuffing out of the Lions in 1977, the England hooker Peter Wheeler wrote a postcard home that read, it's only rained twice this week, once for four days and then for three. At Wellington, the mud was so thick that after half-time, the players became muddily anonymous, even to their teammates. The Lions passed only to those whose voices they recognised. It took some 11 hours to clean their hair. As a player that loves to run the ball, you were literally running on mud most of the time. And we had some great players, the likes of J.G.

4:58Williams, Phil Bennett, on hard grounds. You couldn't get near them, but on a muddy pitch, on a really muddy pitch, that sort of neutralises their pace and their sidestepping. So it then favours the bigger, heavier players. So we didn't really get a chance to play with the same flair that we did in South Africa. As John Hopkins wrote in the Sunday Times, these tours, while still a glorious adventure, were becoming more difficult to justify for amateur men who had to leave their jobs and their families. The 77 Lions went on 30 flights, took off and landed 70 times from 20 different airports in three continents.

5:37They travelled over 30 ,000 miles and put$2 million in the coffers of New Zealand rugby. And for what? July 31st, 1977. Life as a Lion, and with the Lions, is quite an experience. The players make friends they will never lose, see sights they have only dreamed of, visit countries they would probably never see were they not outstanding sportsmen. But the pressures on them are too great. No other amateur sport inflicts a 26-match, three-and-a-half-month tour covering some 32 ,000 miles on its players and their families. It is time rugby stopped doing so before the players rebel. The Lions Tour of 1980 was at the centre of a bitter controversy.

6:20In 1977, Commonwealth leaders had signed the Glen Eagles Agreement committing to discourage sporting contact with South Africa. The United Nations in 1980 issued a resolution condemning apartheid. The British government, too, opposed the 1980 Lions Tour. Players were asked not to go by politicians. However, the Lions Committee decided in a meeting at the East India Club to press ahead with their trip. The British Lions tour of South Africa should be cancelled before the team finds itself playing rugby in the midst of a bloodbath, Mr Ronald Hayward, the General Secretary of the Labour Party, said yesterday.

6:56Mr Hayward's remarks were criticised by Wing Commander John Lawrence, Honorary Secretary of the Tour Committee of the Four Home Unions. He said, we abhor apartheid and the killing of children, but it is ridiculous to suggest we are supporting this in any way. I think in my heart I knew it was wrong, and it troubled me a lot. Hi, I'm John Beatty, I'm line number 551. I was picked for South Africa in 1980, New Zealand in 1983, and then in 1986. And I remember getting letters from lots of politicians before I left saying you shouldn't go. And I'd love to pretend I was naive. I think anybody who says they're totally naive is not being honest.

7:38We all knew. So you make a decision that rugby means more to you than the politics, which looking back was the wrong decision, wasn't it? Yeah, that's the thing. Do you regret going with the benefit of my sight? I do, yeah, totally. And I would hope all my teammates would be the same in that plainly you were helping a regime to tell you how great it was because here's the lions and they're all white. You know, I remember being absolutely gobsmacked that there were bus stops for whites and blacks and I don't think we helped as lions to make any change. We were part of it. It wasn't so much that we weren't welcome there because the South Africans were desperate for us to go but there was huge turmoil back home and did it have an impact on the players?

8:32I think it almost certainly did. I can just remember us all being completely taken aback that one section, the majority of the population was subjugated and were not treated as equal and at the time I think there was a dislike of the South Africans because of that. You know, there were bigger things at play that made us lose the Test series. You know, it wasn't politics that lost the Test series. I worshipped Andy Irvin. And I would have cleaned his clothes forever. And I worshipped these men. And just to be picked for them was beyond my wildest dream at the time. Do you remember the moment you found out?

9:17Because it's all been different through the years. No, I have no idea. I think it's a letter. I'm sure there's a letter somewhere. you know saying you've been picked for the lions and as a long-haired you know i was a kind of long-haired rock guitarist in a band status quo uh fan an acdc fan with hair down to my shoulders playing a bit of rugby at the time and then suddenly you're in the lion squad and it's a different ballgame and then we went there and i you know my memory of it was gathering in london and being and i trained for a month with cameron sharp the olympic athlete and the guy called bill Dickinson weight training sprint training aerobics anaerobic and I was flying and we turned up and my memory of it was right we were told right everybody let's have a big drinking session and I thought what I thought we're gonna I thought that Lions tours you'd live like a monk and I was 22 and suddenly everybody's drinking I think the night before we flew away and I lived I won't name his name but I was I was rooming with a real legend from before me and I had to pretty well undress this guy and put him in bed.

10:25And I was thinking, is this what happens? So I think it became probably quite a happy tour, but a losing tour is a strange thing. You question everything. You just sort of start unraveling a bit. Lots of life sorts have unraveled, haven't they? Really badly, some of them. I don't know about totally unraveling, but it becomes a two-camp thing. The Wednesday guys, the Saturday guys. I also think the whole idea of 30-odd men going away together is strange. You know, in no other sphere does it work. And, yeah, you start questioning everything. And when you lose, it's horrible. I mean, it really is horrible.

11:00I didn't enjoy it. I remember being in the middle of it thinking, this is not fun. The 1980 Lions tour, which started in acrimony, finished with a 3-1 series defeat, followed by a 4-0 blackwash in New Zealand three years later on another miserable, sodden trip. This was not the Lions' dream.

11:24In New Zealand it's wet, so you're packing up in the wet, onto a coach in the wet, training in the wet, your kit's wet, trying to dry your wet clothes, and you're being beaten.

11:38With due respects to New Zealand, going to New Zealand in June, lovely country but not in June. I mean, back then I remember rooming three to a room in motels. Three of us, pissing rain outside. The laundry services weren't as good as you're getting now. You know, you could see how to wear people down. Hi, this is Donald Lenehan. I'm Lion 598. Lucky enough to be on a Lion's tour to New Zealand in 1983, a Lion in 1986 and in 1989 to Australia. It's been a privilege. You're on the other side of the world. People have no appreciation how far New Zealand was in those days. I mean, you met people who were Irish and they'd come up to you and they might never have been back home.

12:22I mean, part of your job as a duty boy was collecting the letters in the morning. So you go into a new hotel and there might be 15 letters sent as duty boy on the day. And the fellas face that you'd be in breakfast. Dusty hair, there's a letter for you. Nothing for you. Do you know what I mean? And that was communicating. You might ring home once a fortnight. I was there for about three weeks or three or four weeks. You might have rang home twice. So, I mean, you were literally on the other end of the world. And you did have that feeling of isolation. It was you against the host nation. The environment, the arrangements.

13:00I mean, when I look at the way players are pampered now and everything. It was just like there was this feeling that it was you against the world. And it was like you had no supporters. and I think New Zealanders themselves felt more of a sense of obligation because they had lost the series in 71. It was almost as they had to put you back in your place. There's pride involved. There's pride involved in being a lion, isn't there? Pride of lions. There's a pride. It's horrible losing. You just feel you've let the place down. You know, when the 74 guys came back, the press are there and it's heroes coming home.

13:36when we came back nobody a couple of scribblers you're a disgrace you're a disgrace to your country it's tough it's really tough yeah it was really odd to go and do this 10 12 week then 10 week tour playing rugby making millions for somebody else losing i can't i can't over stress how horrible it was. I look back on my tours with unbelievable sadness. It's an interesting one, isn't it? Because the way the Lions works is that you're a Lion whether you played one minute or five tours like Willie John McBride. But there's clearly, or maybe within yourself, grading. Oh, there's grading. Do you feel a bit less of a Lion because you didn't win a series?

14:23I'm the C-list Lion. Yeah? Yeah, I remember, I mean, I played one bit of one test. In two tours. No doubt about it. There are legends. There are guys who are instantly identifiable as, like Willie John McBride, winning Lions captain. You know, that's it. And likewise, Keith Wood or Martin Johnson. These are top-notch. Lawrence Delaglio, winning Lions. And then there's John Beatty there. There is. You know, he could be a great Scottish player, but then you didn't win a test series. You didn't win a test. So I don't ever sit quietly with a little whiskey going, you know, you went on two tours. I don't ever.

15:09I don't ever. When I watch them playing, I go, I was one of them once. A long time ago, I was one of them. 45 years ago, I was one of them. And you want them to win because it's the Lions and it represents a hemisphere, doesn't it? It represents something. It represents us.

15:31In 1980, the IRB rejected Southern Hemisphere proposals for a Rugby World Cup. The pressure for modernisation was growing, but traditionalists were reluctant to evolve. And so many players on the 1983 tour were all ears when the Australian businessman David Lord tabled the first iteration of a professional rugby circus. And it's amazing to think that over 40 years on, players on this Lions tour will be having exactly the same conversation about the new Rebel League, R360. Yeah, if this pod series is teaching us anything, it's that Lions' lessons echo right through history. There was a meeting on the 1983 tour.

16:08At the end of the 1983 tour, where it was at a fellow Lord or Packer or one of these guys, they were promoting a professional rugby circuit. And we were called into a room to discuss would we have an interest in going professional. I remember Eddie Butler, there was a meeting, and Eddie, I think, would have been captain of Wales at that time. And Eddie Butler made the point. He said, listen, he says, I'm captain of Wales. Playing for Wales means far much more to me than going on a professional. And I said, look, Eddie, I agree exactly where you're going, but I says, my concept of amateurism and your concept of amateurism are two totally different things.

16:46He said, what do you mean? He says, we all know in Wales you get a few bob for this and you get that. I said, I play for one of the top clubs in Ireland, Cork Constitution. I pay a pound to get my bandaging done and to get my gear washed afterwards. We pay a pound. And he's looking at me as if I have two heads. So I said, your concept of amateurism and mine, because there was all these rumours going around about money and Wales. But that was back in 1983. That was the first time professionalism was mooted. So that didn't go ahead. Then you had the World Cup came in in 87. So that was the next level, if you like.

17:24And 89, all the best players, the backs, obviously, were more the targets for the rugby league guys. Jion was coming under pressure. He had come through. Jonathan Davies had left. But Goscott, in that era, rugby league, were looking to sign up all the best rugby union players. Like, Gerry and I were rooming together somewhere, and he was out of the room, and the phone rang, and this fellow I know it was Gerry Guscott there I said no no he's not here at the moment who's calling and he says Ellery Hanley he said and the pack of mine Jesus Ellery Hanley who I know like we would be big fans of rugby league and in our side of the world Ellery Hanley I'm sure he's a fucking big rugby league so anyway that was it Gerry came back into the room I said Jesus your man Ellery Hanley was looking for you and he was pissed off.

18:17I said, I'm telling you, he was looking for me. I said, you're always taking the piss and blah, blah, blah. I said, look, I'm fucking telling you this fella rang and that's it. So anyway, about two days later, again, must have been in the barn, we were lying in the bed, chatting away, next thing the phone rings and Gerry picks it up. And he puts it in and he looks at me and he goes, Ellery, I said, I fucking told you. So he was trying to meet him to make a move to go into rugby league at that time. So rugby was under pressure, all the best players, rugby league was, and you had that whole debate around professionalism had started.

18:52Against the backdrop of 1980 and South Africa's isolation from international sport, there was no tour in 1986. Instead, the Lions played a one-off match against the rest of the world in Cardiff. It felt different, but I could honestly say for the 21 or 23 players that were involved, We were all absolutely thrilled because, like me, others were, I won't say devastated, but really disappointed that the opportunity of touring South Africa was gone. Politics had taken over at that stage for the right or the wrong reasons. So I think we were all thrilled to be selected. I remember we didn't have a huge lead and might have come together on the Sunday, played on the Wednesday.

19:35and you know I remember I was rooming with Wade Dooley in the Angel in Cardiff and if you've ever stayed in the the bedrooms are like the size of a toilet so you had Dooley who was kind of the first of the 6 foot 6 or 7 monsters coming in so I'm rooming with him on the Lions and I thought he was a great fella, great character but he got injured in the match actually and was unavailable for the following Saturday but like that was a very, that was a top quite, you're the best of Australia, New Zealand and it kind of worked me for gear when I saw that fellas got a test cap when they played against Argentina in wherever it was, in Cardiff I think in that 2005 tour and you know there was a sort of a grumbly start of well we should get a test cap for that and to be fair Colin Deans who had capped in the Lions that day contacted me and said look this is our view in Scotland, watch your view and we were yeah 100 % and we drove that.

20:31Remember we had to make a present to the Lions committee a number of years ago now, but it did get full recognition as a test game, which was nice because there was test caps handed out for Argentina's seconds or thirds, I think. The team that played in Cardiff that day, a lot of those Argentinians would have been playing in France and weren't allowed to play in the game. They weren't released. So the fellas we played, if you were to pick a World 15 in 1986, so to New Zealand, South Africa, Australia and France they were probably the best you certainly had 7 or 8 of the best players in the world at that time I think we were deserved of that recognition I remember when we played in 86 against the rest of the world and that was Yelinas and Kerwins and these guys Nick Farr-Jones, Serge Blanco and then the Aussies and the Kiwis started playing a different game of rugby We were always stuck in incredibly deep back line.

21:32You could have been nearly at the Antarctic by the time the ball got to the right winger. And every forward had to be in every ruck. Stupid. When you think back, and even by then, the Aussies and the Kiwis were playing flat line attack, forwards standing off rucks, forwards being first receiver off tens. They were more advanced in their game plan and probably more physically advanced too. So yeah, when players like Liner and these guys came up, it was obvious that something had happened, that we were no longer the top dogs in the Northern Hemisphere. Two years after Australia had co-hosted the inaugural World Cup, the Lions embarked on their first full-blown tour down under since 1899.

22:14It felt like a make-or-break tour for the Lions, who were coached for the first time by 1974 midfielder Ian McGeaghan. Hi there, I'm Jaiyan Evans and I'm Lion number 616 and I went on the tours to Australia in 1989 New Zealand in 1993 and South Africa in 1997 Your guardians, during that window you do understand the sort of responsibility you have as a lion Go back to 1989 there weren't that many tourists from previous tours Donald Enner and Bob Norster and so on who had been on previous tours but generally it was a new tour a new tour not only because it had been a while and to Australia who ended up being world champions over the next decade twice but also from the players on it it was new territory The Lions dropped the first test the tour was teetering on the brink heading into the midweek game against ACT in Canberra it would be an eternal lesson that all successful Lions tours are founded on the strength of the midweek team.

23:22The lifeblood of any Lions tour is internal competition. You have to be able to play your way in or play your way out of contention. And that was ever more evident on that tour. We'd gone relatively seamlessly going into that first test and lost that heavily in Sydney Football Stadium. Lost it heavily and it's quite a sobering experience. And the midweek game then inspired us. Changes were made after the first test, significant changes, five or six changes but a lot of that came up because they were able to make changes because of the performances of the midweek side the midweek side has to push the test side and so it's you know and everyone has to feel they have an opportunity to force their way in it really is the lifeblood so you want that ability and Donald's Donuts in that tour they went to ACT as it was back then the Brumbies now ACT and again they came back from a deficit to win that game.

24:13It was, and that really set the scene and that tour is the only tour where a series, first, the initial game in the series has been lost and we went on to win a series. That Brumbies game, we won the game but I distinctly remember coming off the field and all the fellas who were in the stand who weren't playing, they were on the field and they clapped us in and that was the moment. Like the tour could have, the iron is right, it could have gone that way or that way and everybody came together for the good of the group and it just took off from there. Where did the nickname of Donals Donuts come from?

24:53Because it could be perceived as a rather unflattering nickname. Yeah absolutely. I think what happened was, this is my simple vague record, Roger Utley was on the trip, he was the forwards coach I knew there was somebody else with Giege but I don't know, we were doing something in training someday and he says he just turned around, I'd never and he turned around to me and said you're a donut or something like that and I don't know what we were doing training or fucking messing or something but luckily he turned to me and said so that's literally where it came from so we had our but I remember I said fuck this now we'll have an identity but we had t-shirts like when we got them we had a presentation and the fellas who didn't get one were almost pissed off so like when you had your Lions test presentation we got our own t-shirts done with Donald's Donut.

25:42I remember we made a big thing of presenting these t-shirts. So it was just a group that were totally united. What followed was a test match that has gone down in Lions folklore, the Battle of Ballymore. Got a punch up there between halfback Robert Jones and Nick Farr Jones. They're all joining in now. It's punches galore. It's an all-in brawl. The match erupting. And that was totally unnecessary. Five Australians needed stitches in their wounds. Wade Dooley and David Young were warned by the referee. Young had an outstanding game, but as he must know, he was fortunate not to be sent off for stamping in an ugly incident in the first half.

26:26Granted, Lawton should also have been banished for a frenzied attack on Young. It is sad that the dividing line between legitimate ferocity and dangerous play was so blurred on the day. Australia's scrum half Nick Farr-Jones said the third test could develop into open warfare and he warned, we won't sit back and cop it again. The Australian Rugby Union condemned the violence and requested that video evidence be introduced into the game's judicial system. The third test didn't break out into bloodshed but the Lions kept up the momentum and for the first time in their history came from 1-0 down to win a test series.

27:04The decider hinged on a moment of madness from David Campesi, and Evans pounced the score. He was a stellar player. I'd watched him in 1984. Astonishing player. Hugely talented. But we played five times on that tour against each other. Not only the three tests, but also New South Wales and the Anzac game. And so we knew each other quite well by the end of it. Fabulous player and a great adversary. But my biggest compliment to him is the fact that you end up do focusing on marking someone rather than playing your own game. And it does have that effect. Did that fill you with... Was that something you were expecting to have to do?

27:40Did it fill you with pride to be able to do that? Well, I wasn't known as a sort of highly defensive player. But it just happened that, A, the work we did defensively as a team, because it's only down to individuals. We need to work as a unit. But, you know, didn't get an awful lot of opportunity with ball in hand. It just didn't come. Ended up going, Rory's way will be more than my way. Rory's on the left and I was on the right. and sometimes that tends to happen. Left wings do tend to get, because people pass right-handed, stronger. But, you know, you like more opportunity with the ball, but it didn't quite materialise in the test series until the final test.

28:14But then that wasn't a pass. Well, the pass came from an Australian player rather than one of my own players. It was a wonderful assist from the man that you'd marked out of the series. Yeah. It also, I'd taken a dummy once, but a double bluff as well. Earlier on in the game, or it might have been in the previous game, when I'd taken a dummy, rather than stayed in counter-attacking from his own line before. But that's how it happens sometimes in high-pressure games. There's a bit of breakdown in communication, but quite frankly, I didn't particularly care. Do you take any credit? He was always looking for those opportunities from wherever on the field, but having kept him quiet, do you think there'd been a build-up within him of desperation to try something that you then reap the rewards for the defensive work you've done?

28:59It's not for me to know one way or another, to be honest. But he got unfairly castigated for one thing. It wasn't the only reason that we won the Test Series. And as I said, he pretty much, he was pretty instrumental in Australia winning a Test Series in the World Cup, rather, because of the very things that he brought to the table. So he was one of the most talented rugby players there's ever been. So sometimes it works for you, sometimes it doesn't. And I was quite fortunate at that instant. I was able to capitalise on an error between him and Greg Martin at 15. So you weren't quite sure at that time whether that's going to be a decisive part of the game or otherwise.

29:40But it was a tight game. It was a tight series, but it was a tight game as well. Welcome back, Lazarus. Given the apparent decline in form and fitness and momentum and the drum-beating confidence of the Australians, This was an outrageously magnificent afternoon for the British Lions. There can scarcely have been a more ferociously contested encounter in sport or a victory so richly deserved. McGeegan was back as coach in 1993. His book on the tour was called So Close to Glory and among his post-tour recommendations was for the Lions to enjoy an extra week together before departure and for refereeing to be the same the world over.

30:23The Lions lost the first test 20 points to 18, in which Grant Fox, the Kiwi fly half, was awarded a controversial early try. Yian Evans will tell you his hands are on the ball. It still baffles me now, but you've got to move on from that. We still had our chances. You can't look back on something in the first minute or second minute and think, well, that determined the outcome of the series. No, I still think we, you know, I still look back on that tone now and think, right, there are areas where 89 and 97 were immensely successful because of that real competition for test births. We didn't quite have that in 93.

30:59I don't think these days you have far more consistency in interpretation and opinion because ultimately they're laws. They're not rules, they're laws. And as such, they're always going to be open. It's a subjective interpretation of those. but I think these days you have a far more consistent interpretation of those laws and that would mean regardless of where you play and against whom you play then you're always going to have that you're comfortable in the knowledge that things are going to be applied in the same way now ultimately referees are only human like players are and that human aspect is really important in rugby we have to maintain that some of the greatest referees in the world now and again would take one or two liberties so we say but it was a better product and a better enjoyable game to participate in and watch as well and so um you're always going to have that element you it's quite hard to be binary over these aspects but there were certain frustrations so we say as regards on this tour and as geach has mentioned several times since and many others have you still look back and again you don't get many chances doing a series in new zealand that was one that got away that's my greatest disappointment The Lions roared back to win the second test 20 points to 7.

32:09It was the most points they'd ever scored in a test against the All Blacks. And they then sprinted into a 10-0 lead in the third test. But McGee can describe the All Blacks as being over-psyched and the Lions couldn't match their onslaughts. The more fervent the hopes, the deeper the despair. The Lions spent the past week standing at the front door of history While inside, New Zealand rugby was in almost a paralysis of tension The All Blacks exploded to win the series And to save their reputations The careers of their coaches And the old order of things in the rugby world The Lions were inconsolable

32:58There was absolute a feeling of this could be the end of the Lions. There was constant questions about, well, how is the Lions going to work? If everyone's going to be professional and you're going to be contracted to players, to clubs, the players are contracted to clubs, how on earth is that going to be viable for the Lions? i'm matt dawson line at number 685 and i toured in 1997 2001 and 2005 how can they afford to pay the lines how can they somehow get a seven or eight week window in the schedule to go on the lions tour 1997 the first lions tour of the professional era Mandela, the man imprisoned in 1962, was now president of South Africa.

33:50The Springboks were world champions. Northern Hemisphere rugby wasn't at its strongest. 95, England getting obliterated in the semi-final. It was very much about South Africa, New Zealand, Australia coming through. Were those teams just going to be a bit too good going forward? in this professional era, those Southern Hemisphere teams are just going to get better and better and better. Can the Northern Hemisphere cope with it? That was a genuine news story. We were not going to win any, we weren't going to win a game, not a load of Test Series. We weren't going to win, we might, they might have given us Oompa Malanga or East London or whoever, that type of game.

34:39but there was a real siege mentality from that group or the great speeches that Jim and Geach would go through were all about sort of realising that inner spirit that we had. This is your fucking Everest, boys. Very few ever get a chance in rugby terms to go for Everest. You have the chance to be. Living with Lions, the greatest behind-the-scenes documentary in sport. They were amazing. That group were just... they were brilliant. And yeah, there would have been a handful overall of crew, but you never saw them. I mean, you could be doing this podcast and they'll be in the corner somewhere. And, you know, it's not like they're moving around and trying to get different angles and moves and clip.

35:20It was like, no, sit in the corner and let's have it. And they recorded everything. I mean, I love the fact that everybody has tried, as you say, tried to emulate this amazing video. No one's got anywhere near. and I think partly because it just gets edited by the governing body around it and the beauty of that with the Lions the Lions management basically just said listen film everything we'll edit it afterwards but get everything you talk about 97 that is like a genuine video diary of the tour I mean it makes you really flash back to what was going on day to day whether it's in the hotel rooms on the bus at breakfast, going out in the evenings, doing shots of tequila in Cantila Tequila's bar.

36:06I mean, it was just, that's exactly how it was. And that's why it was very special. It wasn't, all of a sudden, there wasn't a clip put in from a week ahead. It was chronologically done and put together. The Lions fronted up against a mighty Springbok pack. Tom Smith, Keith Wood, Paul Wallace and Dawson scored one of the cheekiest tries in Lions history. It was 16.15 to South Africa and the game clock had ticked round to 72 minutes when the Lions put down the scrum 22 metres out. Dawson sees the ball sprinting clear from Ruben Kruger down a narrow blindside and headed for the corner. The cover defence came across in numbers.

36:50Dawson held the ball up as if to flip a high pass inside and his dummy rooted the cover to the spot.

37:12How does that make you feel 28 years on? Maybe a bit harsh on fortunate selection. It's Stephen Jones, isn't it? It's Stephen Jones, so he can't help himself. He's definitely going to have a dig at some stage.

37:32My memory of it is the focus for all of the scrums was just get the ball in and away. Tim Rodber was number eight and it was just the two of us and Keith Wood, we drilled and drilled and drilled, putting the ball in, hooking it back to eight, getting it up, getting it in play because we knew that we were going to be under pressure. you know tim how many scrums had gone previously but tim was just scooping up every ball and getting smashed so tim then turned around to me and said solo i think the call was which basically meant rather than him picking up that i would pick it up and probably probably he was just fed up with getting his head kicked in by the south african back row for 72 minutes so so really my there was nothing complicated about it other than get the ball and try and get outside Kruger you know and then either you're looking for support or you're going to set it up and we're just into our into play but it just so happens because the way that South Africa defended and certainly they didn't know anything about me so if that was Rob Howley they were probably would have expected him to be able to get around the outside and maybe they would have defended slightly differently but because I got around the blind side there was you know that a little bit you know you could send it wasn't say panic from South Africa but there was space Yian Evans I still believe came in far too early on a scissor and sort of left left me a little bit but as I've seen him come in I've used it to and again it's Yian Evans everyone knows that Yian Evans is going to get the ball because he scored so many brilliant tries for the Lions and Wales he's the man to mark it was just to it was just a culmination of all these events that if you were South Africa well you know you're going to win the scrum you're going to put them under pressure don't worry about the nine because he's not going to do anything because it's not Rob Howley oh here comes Yian Evans on a cut he's going to get the ball right we've got all the danger marked and in that split second as I'm sort of throwing that overhead dummy you could I you know I could see Teichman's body language just slightly back off so i was like well i'm i'm gonna keep hold of the ball here i didn't realize that everybody else had stopped and particularly zhuba the 15 who is hair in a cross and would have easily caught me but even now even he is stopping for yai and evan i mean they're all looking at me thinking there is not a chance on this platform someone's going to have him but everybody has thought well someone else is going to have him and you know they all i mean they all bought it but it was something out of it was something that i used to do at school you know i was 20 whatever i was 24 years old you know like i mean you would expect a little bit of swagger and a little bit of you know sticking your fingers up to the opposition because what we'd all been through because we were all written off you know subconsciously there was probably a little bit from me saying to you know just saying to whoever was watching that's you know i'm i'm capable i'm all right i'm worthy of this jersey but yeah that that is what that jersey does to you i mean there are endless individual moments and team moments that other teams don't come close to that shirt does some really weird shit to you it sort of puts your your your mind you know you you become sort of superhuman when you're in it and everything is very very heightened and therefore how alert you are, your periphery, your skill set, your understanding of the game, because it means so much.

41:12That's why Geach talks about test match animals. That's what he's talking about. There are certain people that under those pressures, everything just gets ratcheted up and they love it and they become a better player because of it. Then came another of McGeekin's iconic speeches. There are days like this when many rugby players never have it, never experience it. It is special. I can tell you these are the things, these are the days that you never believe will come again. It has. And I can tell you I've given a lot of things up. I love my rugby. I love my family. And when you come to a day like this, you know why you do it all.

41:57You know why you've been involved. It's been a privilege, it is a privilege, because we're something special. You'll meet each other in the street in 30 years' time and there'll just be a look and you'll know just how special some days in your life are. We've proved that the lion has claws and has teeth. We've wounded a springbok. When an animal is wounded, it returns in frenzy. It doesn't think. It fights for its very existence. the lion waits and at the right point it goes for the jugular and the life disappears today every second of that game we've talked about what they're going to do or everybody else has we go for the jugular every tackle every pass every kick is saying to the fucking springbok you're dying your hopes of living in this test series are going and on that field sometimes today all it will be between you is a look no words just a look that will say everything and the biggest thing it will say is you are special you are very very special Dawson have they got the self-belief It's Guscott's drop!

43:20It's there! Gerry Guscott did go for the drop goal! Acclaim the most astonishing defensive performance. The most remarkable courage in adversity in rugby history. Acclaim the counter-attacks of the last ten minutes when the siege was raised. And with a short, stabbing, yet soaring drop goal by Gerry Guscott, the Lions took the lead. Acclaim the 1997 British Lions. Victors in the Test Series in the home of the world champions. Now we have seen it all. The lot. When Jerry Guscott calls for the ball you give him the ball. I don't think I played with anyone like him. If a player is in the mood to play that he can change the game himself.

44:14But I think it was just the volume and the cry from Gerry Gusker to say, give me the ball, give me the ball. Give me the effing ball. Yeah, right, let him have it. The 97 lines were immortalised as Test Series winners in South Africa, emulating at long last the great side of 74. I don't think I ever took myself to that level again in my career, even winning the World Cup, how we had to dig in for those two fixtures. that was the greatest series win that I ever had. And even if we had one in 01, I think 97 would have surpassed that for sure. Next time on the Red Lions.

45:01Into the modern age, rancor and revival, as the Lions battle to find their place in the professional era and become a commercial monster. You know, for lots of reasons in 0-1 Will be maybe the only regret of my rugby career Yeah, I do remember very vividly really How broken a lot of the players were By the time we got to that third test Obviously I think Drickle was tall a little bit beforehand But yeah, it was a shock Because I was so sad next to Drickle on the bus afterwards So like, you don't really know what to say Second test, half to win in New Zealand And there was just this energy in the stadium which was just like, it felt like something special was going to happen.

45:43There's certain goal kickers where they line up a kick and you just know they're not missing. He was always going to nail it, you know, did the same 12 years earlier in Pretoria. Amid the controversy of savage player columns, the O'Driscoll dropping, the Geography Six and Razzie's video, some Lions become greater than others.

46:04This is the Red Lions from The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. The series was produced by Alfie Reynolds. Sky Sports is the only place to watch every match of the British and Irish Lions 2025 Tour of Australia in the UK and Ireland. All three tests and six tour games, live from June 20th to August 2nd. Watch on Sky Sports or available to stream with now.

46:36Thank you.