Two Lions on the pod: Fin Smith staying at Saints & Tommy Freeman’s positional switch.

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0:52Hello, Ruckers. Welcome back to the Journalist Rugby Podcast from The Times. It's Will here, and you've got me on my lonesome today. I'm not saying the others have shunned or rejected me, but maybe it's more that I'm the R360 to their traditional unions and I'm striking out on my own regardless. I'll leave that one up to you. Anyway, you join me at Franklin's Gardens, home, as you know, of Northampton Saints, ahead of their Derby weekend in the Prem against Leicester Tigers here on Saturday. It's a bit grey and cold. We've had Anthony Bellow dropping goals and kicking at the posts out on the field.

1:26The Sprinklers are going. is a couple of days out from the derby match. And lucky us, we've got two Lions coming to join us, Finn Smith and Tommy Freeman, who should be available for selection for that Tigers derby game, as well as Phil Dowson for a Saints special today. There's much to discuss, of course, with these Lions returning this weekend. Smith's new contract, rejecting R360 Saints' lead-blowing form, and plenty more. So this is not just a ruck for Saints fans, although you'll enjoy it too, but stick with us whoever you support us there's loads in this i'm sure you'll love so without further ado let's get some lines on the pod first up england and northampton fly harv finn smith is on the ruck

2:12okay man of the moment here finn smith fresh from announcing new contracts at saints taking you beyond 27 world cup staying at here in franklin's gardens how does that feel yeah it's oh it's a really exciting time for me personally um you know delighted to have made a decision and one that i'm really happy with you know it's a great club great town there's some great people that i get to come to work with every day um some of my closest mates and um you know i've absolutely loved my last last couple of years here i feel like i've really developed as a player and as a person as well so um yeah really pleased with the decision i made and nice to be able to share it with everyone finally yeah absolutely does it take loads of negotiating and like I don't know lots of conversations with friends family everything else or was it a super easy decision to just go yes I love it here of course I'm gonna stay you know I'll be honest like it was a big decision for me and I had had some options that I felt I wanted to do justice to myself to explore and at least think about and chat to my family and really you know go through some scenarios about what what my my career and life would look like and stuff but actually you know the more we sort of thought about it and considered stuff and there was you know everything was put on the table like it just made a lot of sense for me um to stay here like i've absolutely loved it fans are great the boys are great i feel like i get a player style which i really enjoy here and um yeah like almost a fairly simple decision in the end yeah there's been a huge amount of noise over the last 12 months or so about r360 and things like that that hasn't it doesn't exist yet but could in the future was that a viable option like you've obviously chosen to stay and the security of the Prem and England and everything else but that must be rattling around every player's mind who's out of contract yeah like it's definitely something that we're aware of as players and it's being talked about look for me personally I'm desperate to play more times for my country and go to a World Cup and things like that so in terms of considering things like that probably didn't really dive too deep into what that might look like um but yeah like you say it's there's a lot of noise about it in the media and players chat too so there's definitely definitely something we're all aware of yeah yeah and i guess we had a statement earlier this week from the unions that was very clear that if anyone went they would be sacrificing their test future and that's clearly something that you wouldn't want to do and you said in your release when you signed your contract you're desperate to achieve loads more with england go to world cup so that's got to be forefront of your mind right as much as it is here with saints yeah 100 100 like um no the last the last 12 months or so for me getting the opportunity to play for my country play 10 for my country the the feeling and the buzz you get off that is just amazing and it's something I want to keep doing over and over again like of course there's there's a great deal of competition in my position I'm aware of that so however that looks whether I'm given the chance to start or be on the bench or or you know help help the team prepare in the best way possible like so be it but all I can control is being available to be picked and playing as well as I can to you know impress the powers that be and yeah like I'm desperate to keep doing that I'd love to go to a world cup and you know I feel staying here gives me the best chance of doing that yeah last one on that r360 thing you've decided to stay but there will be people who still will go i guess you wouldn't begrudge them because everyone's got a different scenario don't they of where they are in pecking orders and everything else and what their future looks like and earnings and everything else yeah 100 like i don't know how different people view it i haven't read too much in the media that's been said but like you say i can completely see why going somewhere and probably earning a lot more money would would make a lot of sense.

5:40To play a bit less as well. Yeah, it's not a particularly mind-boggling decision for someone to make. It's understandable. Like you said, everyone's in different stages of their career and if they feel like that's the right thing for them to do at that time, then so be it. But for me at the moment, staying in England, staying at Northampton made a lot of sense. But yeah, definitely, like you said, there's no hard feelings towards anyone that feels that's the right thing to be doing. Yeah. Well, I'm sure plenty of people who come here on the weekend are pretty glad you're sticking around. How was the Lions?

6:06Easy question for me to ask. Like, what have you come back feeling like after that? Just how was Australia? I let you into my head around how I feel about the whole experience. Like, one unbelievable experience, once in a lifetime, like everything you imagine it to be and people talk it up to be and more. Like, the novelty of it, some of the connections you make with some of the best players in Britain and Ireland. Just the experience, being around thousands and thousands of fans out there. amazing and you know that's something that no one can take away from me now that i've been on that tour and done it and um followed in the footsteps like i say something i'm hugely proud of i'd say i'm probably self-aware enough to know that i didn't perform in australia quite how i'd have liked and maybe uh off the back of that the opportunities i had around test matches and stuff like that probably were few and far between which i you know i'm self-aware enough to understand why um especially with how well some of the other tens are playing like um i understand that and i I guess for me, now being able to reflect on it, it's a lot about what can I learn from that experience?

7:11What can I learn from being around guys like Finn and Faz and Johnny Sexton and those sort of guys and Marcus and stuff? And what's actually useful to me off the back of that tour? Like amazing experience. What can I learn having watched the best players in action and being in that environment? And how can I bring that into this season? And what can I bring into my game? And just trying to stay really sort of neutral and calm around that whole thing because, yeah, I guess a lot of emotions come off the back of a tour. Yeah, that's interesting because I guess that everyone is absolutely delighted to get selected and then there's that whole new thing of going, but you really want to be a test liner, don't you?

7:46And you want to go out in there and impress all these people and earn the respect to your teammates and earn the respect to the new group of coaches and things like that. So, yeah, it's loads of things to think about. But, yeah, something I reflect back on with hugely fond memories. It was an amazing, amazing tour and something I loved. so when the tests were coming around because everyone does it differently don't they like some people would have gone brilliant i get three weeks on the piss kind of thing and others would go i wish i was there how are you watching those games like did you find it frustrating no not not at all watching the games like i was in full support um yeah boys like 100 andy did a great job of getting us all aligned around you know we wanted to go over there and make history and win back-to-back tours against australia and all of that stuff so i was you know those those people i spent a lot of time with on the tour like you you want to go and see them do well you want the lines to succeed and you know I very much felt felt a part of that as I'm sure the other lads who were set beside me did but like I said like there's there's an element of like I'm self-aware enough to know that I probably didn't deserve to be around the test stuff which is which is fine based off how I played over there and then you kind of move to write what can I make out of the next few weeks and like I say some of that is enjoying yourself socially and making some brilliant memories which which I did and there was a group of us you know I was room with Henry how was that yeah it was an experience but it was nice to have someone in in the same shoes as me you know hadn't hadn't been selected and you know we could sort of come together and be like right let's just go enjoy ourselves make the most of this because we're not going to get an experience like this again but yeah he was uh he was a handful he was yeah i can imagine yeah because it's interesting because you're what 23 now yeah people could go look finn don't beat yourself up like you've got an alliance tour you've only got what seven or eight england caps yeah something like 11 12 12 so to be even in the squad's brilliant but do you almost like the fact that you were a little bit annoyed you weren't in a test squad because that maybe shows that you go no i haven't like don't be don't settle kind of drive be better try and be get then get on the next tour get an england jersey make it your own is that how you're feeling about it yeah i think i think you know i'd be concerned if i didn't feel like that like as a professional athlete you like Being competitive is in our nature.

9:54I'm glad that it's given me something as fuel to the fire and a why to go and come back into Northampton after a pretty whirlwind year that's actually like, right, this is why I want to come and train as hard as I can because I've seen what it takes from guys to play, be that good and be at the top of the game at that level and what I need to do to get there. So, yes, it was a great experience. So, yeah, really happy with that one. What's your favourite off-field memory that's publishable on the podcast? No, we had probably in that last, after the second test, we had a couple of days celebrating.

10:26But straight after the game, we went and put our chairs in a circle in the middle of MCG, had a few beers, and were sort of singing songs from each different country and stuff. And I thought that was very, very Lions-y. That was a pretty core experience that I won't forget. You wrote the song, didn't you? The Rocking All Over the World song? Yeah, that was me. That was me. That's definitely something that I added value with on the tour. I did well. I did well with composing the song and was sort of adding different lyrics based off different things. How does it go? We heard it because we were sitting when you guys won that second test.

10:57Your changing room is right next to the media room and it was actually like a bittersweet moment because you had poor old Harry Wilson sitting there who just lost the series and you guys are shouting next door. Yeah, no, it was good. It was to the theme of rocking all over the world. And then the last line of each bit would be the name of the man of the match and Captain Marrow to the tune of it. so it's not very creative but the second test one was it Farrell and Captain Marrow or was it I can't remember now actually I can't no it was Barry which is what Barry calls Hugo Keenan because he obviously scored the winner which is very cool so yeah Barry and Captain Marrow which is good so you've added that to your repertoire is there an England version coming or something or a Saint you've already got the shoes yeah we've got the shoes here and then the England one gets taken care of by Will Stewart and Sam Underhill and those guys so I think it'll be very much one and done for me on the song right in front but I'm glad I glad I managed to do that back on the rugby side of it do you find it brilliant talking about that competitive side that you've got a 10 playing really well here new signing Anthony Bellow done well hasn't he yeah and then at England the queue just keeps getting longer if people like Owen Farrell's back in the mix and now as well like you probably love that don't you yeah great let's drive the standards no it's great it's great like first and foremost it's great having Anthony come in and play as well as he has and you know kicked us to a win last week and you know those are games that we potentially would have lost in the future so it's nice for me to be able to slot back into a team that's that's been winning um it's great been having him on the training pitch to challenge me and i can challenge him back and we can bounce ideas off each other and stuff um and he's a very experienced guy so i feel like i can learn a lot a lot of him and and the exact same with with uh with england like i think sometimes these things get built up around oh who's it going to be and all of that stuff like at the end of the day we turn up to training we're all we're all good mates that that want to be picked and um want to train hard and want to win games of rugby and actually there's a really nice feel to that sort of relationship where you know everyone sort of mucks in and helps each other and whatever the coach thinks best the team around who plays so be it and how can how can you sort of help help that person and help the team keep improving so yeah it's a it's a fairly nice nice and nice environment to be in yeah exciting times i know you've got saint stuff to do first and we'll get on to the tigers in a sec but England have got some tasty fixtures coming out.

13:10Hopefully you're involved in those that did well in the summer while you guys were away. It feels like turning corners, winning those big games now. 100%. I think the squad's in a great place. The back end of the Six Nations leading into the boys' tour to Argentina and then add the experience of some of the guys coming back in from the Lions tour to that. I think we're in a really exciting spot. And then add to that the appointment of some new people. Lee Blackett. Byron McGregor seems like the next one. News to me, but we'll go with that. And yeah, just the whole feel of it all, it really feels we're in an upwards trajectory.

13:43And yeah, we've got a real good chance to test ourselves in the autumn, so that'll be exciting. Yeah. I know you're sort of an adopted saint, because you're kind of Worcester to start with, but you know what a Tigers game means to everyone here, don't you? And how fun that's going to be on Saturday. Yeah, you can just feel it. You can feel it in the atmosphere, in the stands. It just feels different. You can see it in the look of our boys' eyes. You can see it in the look of their eyes when they turn up. like it's just got a very different feel to it this game uh it means a lot to so many people particularly after you know how we performed in this game last season I feel like um we really owe it to each other and owe it to the town as a whole to um pitch up properly on on Saturday and and uh do a good job but but for me personally coming back in first game back in like what an exciting opportunity to be be in a game that's going to be as big as this one do you expect there to be a slight bit of rustiness just because you haven't played a full 80 minutes or even an hour have you I'm sure you've trained really hard but you haven't actually played a match no exactly of course it will be like stuff stuff will go wrong stuff will go right which it which it does in every game um but I just want to hopefully feel like I can add to the team um when stuff does go wrong feel like I respond to it really well and just just be yeah be a sort of be a consistent figure throughout the 80 minutes for the group like um I feel like that's all that matters and hopefully we put a good performance in and get a good result yeah last one if I was To give you a club goal and a country goal for this season, what would you say back?

15:07It's a good question. Here, after winning the Prem a couple of years ago and getting close to winning a European title last year, I'd love to get some silverware. I believe we've got the group and we're in a good position to really compete with that. So I'd say club goal and England goal, I'd just say I'd love to be a part of a successful England team. Like I said, obviously I'd love to be playing 10, wearing the 10 shirt and doing that but ultimately winning games for England is the main thing so I want to be a part of a successful England team that has a really good year leading into a World Cup next season Lovely stuff, we've got Tommy Freeman next Any questions for him to tee up?

15:47You do my job for me It's his 100th day this week So that's nice for him Ask him what he's doing to celebrate If he has a song that he has to sing, what would he sing? Will he answer that? Yeah, he might. He might. He's a very good guitar player. Okay. So you can ask him about that. He sings and plays guitar. Okay. Are you stitching him up here? No, no, no. I'm trying to think what else. And ask him about his parents' good luck message they sent to him. Okay. It's genuinely hilarious. Quirky, I've heard. Yeah. Monty Python, which I'd never heard of. I mean, that's a bit before mine and your time.

16:22They did a skit, which was similar to that. So I asked him about that. Okay. It was very funny. Okay. Awesome. Well, look, Finn Smith, thanks so much for being on The Rock. Cheers, mate. Legend. Okay, next on the pod, Tommy Freeman, another Lion, another Saint. How's life? How's everything going? Yeah, very good. I'm excited to be back. Had some good rest after the summer and ready to go for this week. Yeah, so I assume you've been stitched up here. We had Finn Smith on just before you and he said, ask Tommy about the 100th this weekend. It was nice to start with against Tigers. How do you feel about your 100th game for Saints?

16:56Yeah, how quick has that gone? yeah how many years has it been three uh well it's actually been about six years but um no it it feels quick and and yeah 24 making 100 is pretty soon so yeah yeah delighted and hopefully many more to come then he said you've got a really good singing voice that's crazy he's got a good voice i can play the guitar for him that's fine so you can play the guitar because he did say that a little bit a little bit not not crazy okay just a few and he said ask what song you've got prepared for your 100th. Is that a thing, is it? Well, seemingly. Okay. If Finn Smith says it and he's the new contract man, maybe then you have to.

17:32No, he's not running the ship. I'll tell you that. He might be the contract man, but I'm also in contract. Yeah. No, yeah, we'll see. I've always got something up there. Okay. If it was a karaoke situation, what would you reach for? I'd go for Billie Jean, maybe. Okay. Quite a tough song to sing, I'd say, actually. Yeah, that's... Probably a bit of a sing-along. Someone like you, Adele. okay that also gets pretty high yeah can get there can get there um there's probably quite a few to choose from actually but okay well you've got a good choice for the weekend then exactly the last one he said was ask about the video your parents have recorded monty python sketch monty python sketch yeah it was never seen the monty python so i didn't really relate that well um yeah so obviously you get your your hundredth uh videos of family and friends and yeah mom and dad thought it'd be funny i'm gonna say dad actually dad definitely led it from the front and mom followed yeah for sure um and yeah they kind of did a monty python sketch with a bit of rugby taking out some of the monty python right quotes i'd say um which bit which for our older listeners perhaps yeah which holy grail yeah yeah is that yeah yeah no something about nose being big is that yeah yeah yeah um what else was in there that's a bit unfair because you had your nose broken on the live tour so yeah it was nuts and that's your parents yeah exactly so they're really proud of me and i'm sure they're buzzing for it um but no uh i think it was funny it went down well with the older generation so that's brilliant poor acad boys at the front of me going what's going on well let's talk a bit about some rugby um ask the same question of finn but how was your lions experience like obviously played in those tests won the series just unbelievable best thing you've ever done territory yeah yeah definitely right up there like i like i've said before i think being selected to go in the line store i was pretty happy with that but to playing all three was was really the icing on the cake and an unbelievable experience and to do it with the group we did with was was brilliant and to win um was was even more special so yeah it was it was right up there with a definite memory aside from the obvious stuff of amazing to be a test lion a three test line and win a series what are the bits you're coming back with that you feel like you've now got in your armory things that you've learned from other players that you've never worked with before coaches all that sort of stuff i wouldn't say there's too much in terms of what kind of I brought back in my game.

19:46I think there was just things you can kind of pick up off each other. The way kind of Matt Hansen sees the game, James Lowe, Duan, other wingers. It was just quite nice to have a flavour of what they do and how they operate and the way they look after their bodies and things like that. So I'd say like definitely that diligence and stuff has definitely been a massive improvement for me and seeing how some of those boys operate and what they do. And also it's more kind of a lot of 10 stuff and centre stuff of how wingers kind of work around them and obviously wanting to be in the middle a bit and kind of seeing how they operate.

20:19I think that was the main thing I took away and if I can kind of help and you kind of get put under loads of different situations and each player reacts differently. So yeah, the more I kind of played with and saw then hopefully in the situations I get coming up I can make the right decision. Everyone reacts to these things differently but the one thing I remember Ben Earl saying a lot was that he felt like looking back on what he'd done to that point he just did way too much like the fact that you're you were playing twice a week sometimes and everything else and it was a bit mad in that middle period when you're moving every three days he was saying you realized how little you need to do to be ready did you feel similarly with there's almost less you need to do to be ready for these massive games yeah definitely and i think those first kind of three kind of the weeks where we were moving for three days and then playing on the wednesday move in on thursday playing on the saturday it was yeah it was full on and and and traveling does take it out of you so as much as you think right I need to get reps in here I need to do this I need to do that as long as you know your role and and you've had a couple I don't think you need to overthink it too much and and kind of the gym you've on the back end of a huge season you don't need to go and smash loads of weights you just need to make sure the body's in prime position to perform and to be fair to the coaches they got their message and controlled the way of kind of the speed of the sessions and and the length of gym sessions and things like that so um no they they definitely done it before and and you could see that do you think you'll now strip back things that you would have usually done last season or the season before and you go actually do you know I just don't need to do that as much or you can do it every few weeks but not every single week uh yeah definitely and I think with the kind of I played 34 games um last season the year before that I played 34 odd games in however many minutes so um I think it'll be definitely something that the club are definitely going to be helping me with and and kind of see that I want to be playing and that's that's what you want to be um and if that means you're sacrificing Monday or a session in the week or somewhere then then that's what it is and yeah I don't mind that yeah absolutely yeah yeah yeah yeah so going back to Finn like it hasn't given everyone a boost like I don't know if anyone was that worried maybe that he was leaving that he is staying like he's been class hasn't he since he's got here as much as everyone takes a mickey out of each other um I wasn't worried I would happily fill that 10 row for him so uh no I wasn't too worried um no he's like unbelievable player unbelievable mate yeah definitely be gutted to see him if he had gone um but no he's he's he was pretty adamant this is kind of the place you want to be at you've got a good group of lads around you um a good squad great coaches and the crowd are unbelievable and why would you want to be anywhere else yeah remind me what's your situation like when how long have you got left on your deal uh 2027 okay yeah there you go a few years so so that the thing that he mentioned a lot in his with the release that came out when he signed and with us now is that the carrot of the England thing is so strong obviously and going to a World Cup and everything must be exactly the same for you right yeah exactly that um and that was definitely in in my head when I was was re-signing however many years ago two last year maybe I can't remember but yeah it's huge you want to play for your country and be represented on that level and to go to a World Cup um yeah we'll top everything off and not saying you've done it all but there's there's always more you want to go to two World Cups three World Cups and Lions tours and things like that and yeah if you're if you're here then then it's the place to be yeah a couple of weeks ago you talked about that move to 13 you're keen to try and come inside if you can how's that going are you going to be doing a bit of both a bit of wing and a bit of 13 like what where do you see it going this season yeah I don't think too much um is going to change well It might do.

23:54For me, in my head, I'm happy to play both. I want to be on the pitch at the end of the day. And if they feel that I need to be on the wing to get our full strength squad out, then I'll play on the wing. If they want to put their full strength squad out and they think I'm fitting in at 13 for that, then I'll go at 13. Obviously, I want to play regardless. So that's the main priority. And I think I'll be pushing 13 a little bit. These wingers are rapid at the moment. and there's boys in the England squad as well who are unbelievable. And like I said, it's where I kind of fit in and hopefully that is on the pitch.

24:27And with the speed of some of these wingers, if I've got to go in one, I will. If I've got to go in another one, I will. And if I've got to go to 10, it'll be a dream come true. I was going to say that, like with your stature and size, people would say you'd be a great 12. Yeah. Would you do that or do you think on a 13 at least to start with? I think I'm getting ahead of myself here. No, look. Are they so different? I mean, for people that don't play the game, are they so different that you go, you can't really, you can interchange, obviously, and lots of people do, but maybe test level, are they that wildly different?

24:57It's really, really tough. A little bit. I think it just depends on the combination you've got. They say it's more of a carry and roll at 12 off of set piece stuff and less so for a 13, but also you'd say it's more for distribution at 12 as well. so it's the way you want to play the game really and realistically a lot of teams just swap them over if they want someone carrying hard they'll chuck maybe if they're playing at 13 they'll chuck them down With England, Oli Lawrence, Henry Slade they've moved around a lot haven't they? Literally changed numbers in between games haven't they? Yeah exactly that and that's it really it's a combination but yeah for me wing and centre obviously still the main priority and yeah wherever I fit and got to play the only thing I kind of push is if I'm playing 13 I need reps there I want to train there for the week and the week before I don't want to be chopping and changing each week but I understand with injuries and things and bits and pieces with that that if we're short in the back three or go to the back three if we're short in the centres do you know what I mean so it's a very fluid role I would say and yeah I don't think it's a bad thing to have both in the locker Would it be a blow for the consistent try scoring if you're not always on the end of those final passes and stuff like that Yeah it's always nice getting over the line I mean you've done it enough last season Yeah but I'd say setting them up is equally nice and if I can do that and get some front foot ball and yeah create something in the middle and that means someone else on the wing can score then so be it and that's what I'll do yeah just thinking about Saints obviously Tigers coming and people if they don't know you've got like a little bit of history with that because you were in the Tigers set up weren't you ages ago yeah when I was very young and now you're a Saint obviously so does it have an extra frisson of spice for you at all I mean it's hard you can't not get up for a derby game can you but does it feel different for you personally um yeah a little bit like you've got a small connection there from from back in the day obviously back then there was a huge group of lads so you probably didn't see too much close-up of of the professional scene it was more so just the academy and working alongside your school but what age are you at this point i was 13 to 16 okay so three years so it wasn't quite that you were like sniffing at the top of the tree definitely and obviously there was so many people to kind of pick and a lot of people got dropped then as well so yeah I wouldn't say it, it pays on my mind and I would never really say I'm that connected to Leicester and had any kind of connection, well obviously the academy but there wasn't really anything there It wasn't like your family club or anything like that Well if we're going to family club it's Quinn's but yeah obviously watching them and growing up down there for when I first started getting into rugby it was Harlequin's but no, Saints has been my first professional club and yeah, it's a full front of mind and yeah, can't wait to rip into it this weekend They've got some decent back threes, don't they?

27:43They do Some rapid lads, Radwan, Hazard Collins, good in the air Nice challenge Yeah, very good challenge, that's what you want You want to play against these lads and you don't want a boring derby, do you? Where you roll over them, you want a competitive game and you know Leicester will give you one they'll be equally as up for it as we are Maybe your fans want a slightly more, less dramatic game We'll make it as less dramatic as possible, believe me. We will try. But no, it'll be a great occasion and a good time. So what's the real thing that you want to nail as Saints this year? Because you've had, I mean, in the last two seasons, obviously you've had the Prem win, amazing, then not so good in the Prem last season, but amazing run in Champions Cup.

28:21Like, what's the thing that you really want to smash this season? We want silverware. I think that's every time you want to win silverware, Prem, Prem Cup, European. and I think we've showed we can compete with the best. We've had performances where we probably went on our game and still come out and done a good job, but I think it's just how long we can do it for. 80-minute performances is what we're going to go after and obviously it's a bit cliché to say, obviously if you play for 80 minutes and you play your best game, you're obviously going to win the game, but it's obviously not that easy.

28:48It'll be something we'll definitely go after, making sure our game stays on the pitch for as long as possible and we want to be competing in every competition and even when lads go away on international stuff and the PRC kicks off. We want young lads who aren't getting any game time or little game time to really step up and do a good job there and hopefully get some silverware in that. And it seems like the recruitment help you with that. Guys like Callum Chick, Toradaro, who's the obviously academy boy coming on the wing, Bello at 10, when Finn's not around or maybe when he is around. Who knows?

29:16There's some more consistent selections perhaps across the whole team there? Yeah, definitely. And obviously it's very injury kind of based as well and you're going to have injuries throughout the team and no I think the Academy boys coming through are looking sharp and I was just saying in there I don't know what they feed them the way some of these lads are coming in and the things they're doing is pretty special so hopefully when they get the opportunity they can step up into it and yeah it's an exciting group of lads and exciting new signings to watch go Awesome and everyone's delighted that you're part of it too so really appreciate your time on the rock Tommy and good luck for the rest of it Cheers, thanks very much Here's a tip for you There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer.

29:57They tune in every week. They trust the host. And that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience. The problem is you just haven't been introduced yet. We're Acast, where that introduction happens. As the world's largest podcast marketplace, we let you browse shows, see who's listening, and book host-read sponsorships or run your own ads all from one platform. transparent pricing real-time data complete control start advertising on podcasts by visiting acast.com slash advertise okay last up on the ruck we've got phil dowson director of rugby at saints phil have you calmed down from cluster from king's home that mad eventual win yeah just about um just about obviously um with the um with the exit result so fresh in our minds it was a frustration to um to once again lose a lead but I thought the resilience and tenacity that the group showed was well worthy of a win.

30:59What's happening with those? Because you've had two now in consecutive weeks, one a draw against Chiefs obviously and then you did actually win the King's Own one but have you put your finger on yet why you've sacrificed those big points differentials? I think credit has to go to extra in Gloucester at this time and at half time they get the opportunity to regroup and come out the blocks and we haven't dealt with that particularly well. I do think there's circumstances and context around the Gloucester 1 with our lack of discipline, which obviously means you're down to 14, allied to the fact that we had to go to uncontested down to 14.

31:29So the numerical advantage clearly swings in momentum. But not being able to execute what we're trying to do, I think, fundamentally is it. And that comes from pressure from the opposition, but also our ability to do our jobs at that time. And we need to continue to keep our foot down and make sure we're far more ruthless in future. Is there something in the fact that some players have come totally fresh from no game time into the Prem? I mean, we're going to have it again with the Lions guys coming back this weekend for Derby weekend. How difficult is that for someone to have their rest, which they need, but then have absolutely no rugby and then straight into it?

32:01Yeah, I think that's tricky. And I think it's a good question from a welfare point of view about dropping somebody straight into the games, which I'm sure we can elaborate on. But yeah, that is tough. And maybe that is a factor. But obviously, second weekend, it shouldn't be as much of a factor. So there's lots of different things at play. And if it was a simple solution that we could put our finger on, then we definitely would do and we'd do it sooner than we have been. But like I said, all we can do is talk about the things we tried to put in place from a team point of view with regards to the week before and how we managed to do that.

32:29And actually getting over the line is clearly an improvement from the week before. Yeah, you're going to have some decent experienced players coming back, hopefully this weekend with the four Lions. Are they all completely available for selection? Finn, Tommy, Alex Mitchell, Henry Pollock? They're all completely available for selection. Lovely. And obviously there was great news about Finn on Saturday with re-signing here. Just in your words, how important is that to have him here to stay for quite a long time? It's huge. I mean, he's undoubtedly, and I'm sure you'd agree, one of the best tens in the world.

32:57I think you add that to his age profile, you know, it's a huge signing for the club and speaks volumes about, you know, what he's feeling about the club and where the club want to go moving forward. I think he's somebody and a character who continues to push, who's very ambitious. He has lots of things he wants to achieve in the game and he will be a leader throughout our environment to do that. So there's lots and lots of positives around that and we're delighted to keep him here. And he's achieved so much already, hasn't he? What, 23 only? Yeah. Just come off of Lions where, I don't know, maybe a little frustrated he didn't get in the test team, but amazing experience to come back off that and now try and push on with England and you guys.

33:34Yeah, I don't think a little frustrated. I think really frustrated. I think very frustrated. I think he, obviously a huge honour to go and play for the Lions. One of the, if not the biggest honour in the game for an English player. But then he was annoyed that he wasn't playing. He wanted to play in those tests. He wanted to be available. And so he's never happy. And that's a hallmark of elite competitors. And I think that's certainly what Finn is. How tough were the negotiations? Was it pretty simple for all parties? I mean, clearly you guys would go, why on earth would we want to lose Finn? Yep, basically.

34:08And there's obviously lots of context around that as well in terms of, he obviously, like you said, is hugely ambitious. He wants to play for England. He wants to play in the World Cup. He wants to do all these incredible things. That limits where he can go. There's obviously the remuneration in terms of what that looks like and what his expectation is and what the market dictates on that front. It's the playing group he wants to play with where he can be successful on a domestic point of view because that's obviously going to give him the leg up into the international. So there's loads of, he wants to play with his friends.

34:35He wants to play in a group that he trusts. He wants to have fun doing it. and so there's lots of things to take into account when we come to that clause. When he did re-sign on Saturday, lots of people wrote it up or said that it was a bit of a blow for R360. There's been lots of conversations around that. He would be someone that was clearly targeted by them as someone they would want to have taken. Why would you not want England's fly half? Is that a huge boost for you guys as well in that same conversation, you think? That someone of Finn's stature has decided to stay with the traditional club game and the international game and not go for that?

35:06Yeah, I think that speaks volumes about the pull of the international game and I think it speaks volumes about the credibility within the league and what it means to play for a club that's been going since the 1880s. So, yeah, I don't think we'd necessarily look too much at the competitors or the other people that were looking to sign Finn. We're delighted he's staying with us and we know we have a lot to offer both from a coaching point of view and an experience point of view. So, yeah, it's great that he's decided to, you know, he's decided to sign on the line. away from just finn are coaches or are you particularly worried about the threat of r360 we saw earlier this week that the unions came out really strongly and said if you leave and go to it you'll be banned from test selection which i imagine is music to the ears of club coaches because it protects competitions like the prem right yeah exactly and you know the rfv have just signed on with with an agreement for the next eight years or seven years from now on so yeah i think that's that's exactly as it should be i think one of the things that michael checker said last year when the R360 first came out was that it's fantastic that there's an appetite to invest in the game.

36:08So I think that's really positive. I think Red Bull coming into Newcastle in the league is really, really positive. I think the fact that there's people out there who see a huge growth in the game is a huge positive. And I think how we best push that forward with regards to, like you're saying, the calendar, getting the players playing for both club, country and representative games beyond that is the next step in terms of making that really clean. so you're not necessarily because there'll be lots of people in in your shoes or in the club game who'd go r360s like a direct threat to us because it would basically people like finn he's chosen to stay with the club game but his choice could have been saints or that like he couldn't have played for both could he uh yeah but i think also there's going to be competitors across you know i mean i'm sure i'm sure there's clubs in the league who are trying to sign finn and so um the only thing we can control at the moment is what we offer finn and the environment we can we can provide and I think that's as far as it goes there's going to be competitors across the board whether it's in top 14 Japan wherever else and we've just got to put our best foot forward and make sure that we do the right thing for the club yeah and do you think also because one of the criticisms from their side would be look at the English club game Welsh club game perhaps it's dying it's unsustainable but I'm sure you're of the view that it isn't really like look at the product we've got on the field and the games we've seen albeit stressful for you on the weekend like it seems like a lot of good is happening in english rugby years out of covid and yeah exactly right and i think there's two things at play and i think one is is the product you're talking about there when i say product it sounds a bit mercenary but the rugby the rugby on the pitch is competitive is compelling is a high skill level game i think it's particularly well refereed in the premiership in terms of in sort of delivering that consistently i think the premiership is hugely competitive we talked about you know the six different um winners in the last six years and on any given day you know there's there's opportunities and it's exciting um so i think that is in a really good place and i think there's stats that i've seen around you know the young population who are watching the game the tv viewership going up apparently it's gone up 20 in the first two rounds as opposed to the same rounds last year which is a good sign on tv all these metrics are pointing in the right direction more people watching it more people involved more people coming to games i think more sellouts last season more you know quicker sellouts for the final really really positive the thing that would concern me is still the financial results of clubs is fairly dire you know the um the ability to go from a loss-making industry not just an organization but a loss-making industry to becoming a profitable sustainable and where it's not reliant on on on owners continually pushing money and is it's something that you need to think about very carefully yeah yeah bring it back to the rugby and saints particularly the other guy we've spoken to tommy freeman he said a few weeks ago that he was thinking more about 13 this season.

38:54What are you thinking with him? Because you've got some pretty tasty wingers in the group and centres, haven't you? So where do you see his position this year? Yeah, he's more than capable. And I think we've played him, I think it wasn't last year, but the year before we played him a lot in the centre. And a little bit of 15, a couple of times maybe? Yeah, he's played 15. I think he's probably more likely 13 wing than he is full-back. We wanted to get him on the ball as much as possible. He's a frequent athlete. He sees space. He's got a huge amount of confidence. He can beat you in three different ways.

39:20And so we want the ball in his hands. and at centre you get that opportunity to do that. So, yeah, we will train him in that space. I think Steve's talked about that as well in terms of the opportunity moving forward. His last England cap was there, I think, Wales, wasn't it? That's right. It's just how you balance it up and give him the opportunity to do a little bit of both. Currently, with the situation we're in, we'd have him on the wing, but that's not to say that won't change. Yeah. How are all those Lions guys bouncing back in? I imagine they're desperate to play this weekend. Yeah, I think they enjoy their rest.

39:52Alex Mitchell's got some good stories he was well travelled he had a good time in Vegas with a few of the Irish lads so yeah I think they needed that rest there's a lot going on someone like Henry Pollock who gets his first cap he has man of the match performances in Europe etc and then he goes on the British Lions tour and he needs to decompress after that but I think once they're in the environment for 3-4 weeks they start to get a little bit stir crazy they see us playing in tight games that they want to impact and their competitors so I think they're all looking forward to playing I think they're all looking forward to getting stuck in and I think it's great that it's a derby day as well Yeah, how much does that stir the blood?

40:28As always, it's an obvious question in a week like this and another reason for them to be like please let me have a go at Tigers we want to be part of that game Yeah, you want to be involved in it and I think we've talked in the past about the history of it and the intensity of it and I think you see players like Callum Chick and Danilo Fischetti coming in who want to be part of that who've seen it on the sidelines who've seen how lucky we are to have a derby and a rivalry like that and for those four boys to be coming straight back into that game is an exciting fill-up for us. What's your, I don't know, greatest opportunity or challenge this season with Saints?

40:58Because obviously you had your title-winning season, it was unbelievable. You were less good in the Prem last season but made the Champions Cup final. Where are you trying to... Do you have to prioritise one these days or do you try and do as much in both as you can? How are you viewing that all as the club? I think we go for it at this time of year and we find out where we're at. we didn't prioritise the cup over the league last year that's just the way things happen and obviously we've got a less congested fixture list this year with players, England players particularly, missing fewer games which clearly had an effect we've talked about having our strength and depth improved and I think we've done that from a recruitment point of view and we've talked about being more consistent and I think I wouldn't necessarily target any particular competition I wouldn't write one off I would have a view on what our performance should look like what our strength and depth should look like and how hard we have to work to make sure that that we continue to evolve along with the game.

41:50And so, you know, a very, you know, blah answer, to be honest. But it's a case of taking it as it comes and making sure we're focused on Leicester, Newcastle following, then Saracens, and then we'll work out the PRC as we go. Who are you looking at as your main contenders? I mean, clearly Bath have got a very strong squad. Sarri's look physical to start with, don't they? I'd stop you straight away because two games in, it's hard to know who's who. And I think you see the signings that the Red Bulls have made and obviously there's a bit of change there. And when they start to hit the ground, I know Alan Dickens very well, that there'll be a handful.

42:21You see the impact that Exeter have had this season after a disappointing year last year and the changes Rob Baxter has made to his coaching group and the signings. Lenny Katow's popping up. Yeah. It'll be a good 12 for them. And they've got some more players, even more players to arrive in there. Tom Hooper. Tom Hooper, the Aussie boy, is going to come in. So, yeah, I think it's exciting for the league and I think it's going to be nip and tuck. It's going to be even tighter than last year. So, you know, when we're losing two points to Exeter having been 33-7 up at half-time, let's hope they don't bite us in the arse.

42:52So, to finish off, if you're sitting back in this seat in June, looking back at what you've done in the season, what's one thing you want to hang your hat on and say, that's what Saints were about in 25-6? I mean, it's always the same thing, and I'm sure lots of DORs would say the same thing. I want us to go full-on effort-wise, and with this group of players, and with last year's group, and I've been lucky enough to be at this club a long time, I've never had any doubts about the intensity of our commitment and we'll go a long way with the coaching group we have and the development ideals we have around the playing group is that if we go full on and we swing for the fences, we'll be in a good place.

43:26So no hesitation around that. Let's just put as much into the season as we can and we'll have a good time. And you need to find a defence coach, I guess. Lee Radford's seconded and then off to Scotland next summer. We're talking about how that works and what that looks like and there's obviously wheels of motion behind the scenes. Awesome, really appreciate the time on the Ruck, Phil Thank you very much Cheers Okay, so there we go We've had a selection of Saints on the pod there We've had Finn Smith all about his new contract Maybe some frustration on the Lions That was really interesting, wasn't it?

43:55And then Tommy Freeman, big day for him on Saturday against Tigers 100th game for Saints And then Phil Dowson wrapping us all up with our Northampton Saints special I enjoyed it I've been doing a lot of talking on my own here, haven't I? And do you know what? maybe I should bin off Alfie and Alex and Elgin and everyone else and just crack on and do pods of my own. If you enjoyed it, let us know what you thought about it, whether you're a Saints fan or not. The ruckatthetimes.co.uk is our email. Lots of you do email us and we'll try and read out some more. On Monday when we'll do our next pod, wrapping up the Gallagher Prem, everything else, probably a bit of an R360 chat and more.

44:33But for now, enjoy your rugby-watching weekend. And thank you for joining us on the Journalist Rugby Podcast From The Times and The Sunday Times, this has been The Ruck.

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