Was the 2025 Lions series a missed opportunity for Australia?

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0:32Will Kelleher: And just like that, the 2025 Lions Tour is done and dusted. Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. I'm Alfie Reynolds, Will Kelleher, Alex Lowe in another empty stadium later than usual, 20 to 1 in the morning, all thanks to a lightning delay for one of the most bizarre Lions test matches that I think we will ever see. Will, Alex, what a weird end to the tour.

0:58Alfie Reynolds: utter insane chaos and actually we're looking out over the Accor Stadium at the moment it's still raining and hilariously they're watering the pitch as if they as if they needed to they're spraying off the lines that got repainted twice in yellow because the referees couldn't see them it looks completely waterlogged on the side of the field like this weather in Sydney has been awful since Wednesday Alex hasn't it which has been disappointing for sort of like going to the beach and stuff but it made for an absolutely ridiculously memorable test match didn't it

1:27Alex Lowe: yeah it did when we were here for the waratahs game we we came in on the back of a rain bomb they call it weather bomb cyclone bomb and yeah basically a cyclone which led to this sort of rather kind of pantomime story of andy farrell suggesting that the waratahs had over watered the pitch to make it a bit too slick well so yeah the gods over watered the pitch today it was absolutely torrential to the point where it was actually hard to see the other side of the pitch It was very hard to identify players at times. But, yeah, you're right. One of the most memorable games I've been to. And even without the lightning break, I loved it.

2:02Alex Lowe: I loved the contest. I just wish this Wallabies team that we've seen the last two weeks had turned up when we were. Where were they? Because what a series it would have been. And it was one of those games where we were doing a live blog. And at one point, I just looked looking around. I was like, Will Skelton's over there scrapping with somebody. Nick White's over there scrapping with somebody else. there's just like wrestling matches going on Suwiliti was on the floor with Owen Farrell I think Tyg Byrne was holding on to people all the time on the floor as well there was like it was just properly old school in the wet hard to control the ball niggly feisty like in your face it was just I just found it like so brilliantly entertaining that the rugby wasn't classic because the conditions didn't allow it to be classic but it was of its genre but just the intensity of it and the way that the Aussies really did turn up and like I was reflecting on the pod that we did on the team announcement day and we had that whole conversation about emotion and who wants it more and whether that really matters anymore and whether it matters anymore and you know they like it does they definitely wanted it more Australia whether the Lions were struggling with a bit of fatigue and again we talked up this idea that Andy Farrell only picked 27 players and the way that the injuries over across the three tests the way the injuries hampered them today meant that there were players who I think would probably have been scheduled to come off, couldn't come off.

3:26Alex Lowe: But all that's part of the mix. Who knows if he'd started a different back row, would there have been any different? Would they have been hungrier? Would they have been more energetic? You can't say. What you can say is that Australia deserved to win this game. Every player, I think, was better than their opponent. And in the end, we end up with a 2-1 series with a single point points difference as russ bestie has pointed out yeah it's the closest

3:53Alfie Reynolds: lion series ever 68 67 over the three which is ridiculous isn't it and i i sort of hate doing this because i feel like it's one of those things that journalists can do a bit too often of going like oh you had to be there when we're the lucky people who get paid to be here and look there are 80 000 people who can say they were here and are probably very damp at the moment and to rip off their poncho but i've had messages from home of people going like oh what a terrible game that was and I guess if you're watching it at home on the telly and you had 40 minute delay and you had to go off and get yourself I don't know a cup of tea or another pint or whatever else you probably went not much to love about that game wow but being here it does feel that kind of you

4:31Will Kelleher: had to be there moment doesn't it I also think that's to do with the fact that the series is already wrapped up yeah I think if we have that game and it's still on the line and the conditions it reminded me actually of the game England played up at Murrayfield years ago now under eddie jones in the storm yeah awful conditions and yeah it was so intriguing but certainly one

4:49Alex Lowe: probably for the purists but it throws up we talk about the hypotheticals will skelton his impact on this series has been enormous you know imagine what if they got 10 more minutes out of him in the second test what if they played him in the first test when he was telling everyone he was fit to play like yeah hit just the way he was going around like the first couple of minutes He almost flicks Jermison Gibson Park to the floor. He then comes and slams Finn Russell. But he was doing the same this week as he was last week. I think if you player-cammed him, you would see niggle in every interaction he had with anybody.

5:25Alex Lowe: He was crushing rucks and then leaving the arm in.

5:29Alfie Reynolds: It was like he was going through the card, going like, I've ticked off Byrne, I've ticked off Curry, now Russell, Gibson Park, Sheehan. He was just going through the whole team, wasn't he?

5:37Will Kelleher: It was ridiculous. As we've said already, though, as well, you do you look at it from an Aussie perspective and you think, where was that? Like, it's all it really is like they and Joe Schmidt actually in his press conference said we we built into the series or words to that effect in that it's taken them almost until this point to get to where they want to be, which I still think that puts a spotlight once again on their preparation. but all of that spice and ag and just in the Lions faces it took them until the third we saw it a lot more in Melbourne than we did in the first test because it was non-existent in the first and it was even better here where they just made the Lions uncomfortable they were aggressive, they were in their face and I still do think lads, where is that test one?

6:19Alex Lowe: He avoided, not very smartly I didn't think the question about preparation because the Lions were a brand new team but were coming into the Test Series on the back of two matches a week. The Wallabies are not a brand new team, but they came, as he did say, some of the players came in fairly late because they played... Particularly the Brumbies guys. The Brumbies guys, but they were underdone. They came into the first Test underdone, and Joe Schmidt was like, oh, I'm not the kind of guy who wants to look back and reflect. It's like, oh, I wonder why that is. I think it was pretty obvious to us going into the first Test.

6:54Alex Lowe: Well, you were in Newcastle for the Fiji game. where the only caveat we gave them was maybe they're just trying to shake off the rust. We actually gave them too much credit and said, oh, they're holding stuff back. Way too much credit.

7:07Alfie Reynolds: They were just not ready.

7:08Alex Lowe: They were just not ready. And why did they not? There was a lesson for every test nation that hosts the Lions. Is one game enough? It definitely wasn't here. And we saw that in Brisbane. And then the last two tests have been absolute belters, in my view. And you're right. I do think there was an element of being here. You could sense the conditions. It's hard to convey the conditions through the television or the radio. You can describe it, but you don't actually... When you're in the stadium, you're actually quite hard to see through the rain. There is a visceral element to it that doesn't convey that well done to you.

7:42Alfie Reynolds: Can we give the listeners who weren't here maybe a literal view of what we were seeing? I can give a literal view of... I was sat pitch side, so my feet right now are...

7:53Will Kelleher: You do yours, and then we'll do ours. It was just biblical, I think we described it on TalkSport. And yeah, my feet now are absolutely soaked. I had one poncho where I wrapped my bag up in to try and protect it. I had one poncho on me, or I was wearing with all of the kit underneath it to try and keep it. It was just one of these bizarre days where it was just absolutely chucking it down. Then it would kind of dry up a bit, but then would chuck it down moments later. And yeah, it was just ridiculous.

8:22Alfie Reynolds: I've almost never seen rain like that. It was absurd. It was just, as you said, Alex, there were genuinely moments where the play was on the far side of the field and you were having to almost look through the rain, which sounds ridiculous because it's water. But you know what I mean? It was so thick, it was looking like actual grey, white sheets. And so when we were behind lots of these stadiums in the southern hemisphere put the press behind Perspex, behind glass, which on a day like this is pretty good news for us who are quite dry and actually quite warm. But then the window started steaming up so then you couldn't see things.

8:59Alfie Reynolds: We had a man who came along with a squeegee who started mopping down the window which was totally pointless because like another five minutes went by and then it rained again. Then the lightning happened. We actually did see a flash didn't we in the air and then it was all around the horrible collision with James Ryan and maybe we can talk about some of these injuries in a second. But then suddenly you went, oh, they're coming off. And actually, our first thought was, oh, God, is James Ryan's injury so bad that they're coming off because he needs a lot more treatment?

9:26Alex Lowe: So Owen Slott, two seats along, had seen James Ryan. So James Ryan took a horrible, I mean, of all the knees in world rugby, you don't want to take to the head with your head on the wrong side of a tackle. It's Will Skelton. And he was knocked out for a few minutes. He lay unconscious for a few minutes on the field. The full stoppage was way longer than that. Owen had seen his legs moving, so was a bit assured. I hadn't seen that. And I suddenly saw the referee ordering the teams down the tunnel, and I feared something horrific was unfolding with James Ryan on the field for a second. And then it became clear what it was.

10:03Alex Lowe: You kind of piece the dots together. You realise there was a flash. And very quickly it became obvious it was lightning. But I had a moment there where I was like my... I just had this horrible feeling.

10:14Alfie Reynolds: So then we got, obviously, the lightning delay, which lasted 38 minutes, having had 42 minutes of the game, 43 minutes of the game. Remarkably good effort. Sky Sports interviewed the stadium manager, who was a Scottish guy, who explained that. And again, if you've watched the game, you've probably heard all this. But I just found it remarkable because this has happened a few times recently. England-USA, there was a women's game, wasn't there? Wales game, where there was a lightning storm as well. And there's been Club World Cup football in the US where this has happened a bit, but I personally hadn't been in a stadium where this has happened, so I was a bit like, it's almost like a different version of when the Lions drew with New Zealand in 17.

10:51Alfie Reynolds: Everyone went, what happens now? And the stadium manager basically said, if we're off for too long, it's the second half, it's 8-0 to the Australians, and they win the game, and the match is abandoned. And you're a bit like, well, no, no, that can't. What? Surely not. Imagine if it was a series decider, by the way.

11:07Will Kelleher: Imagine that. Oh, my Lord. But so to, again, because I was pitch side, for this. I quite quickly had a Rugby Australia official coming up to me and basically saying, you need to leave. Everyone in terms of the pitch, you have to leave. So we all went down the tunnel, which was a scene of relative chaos, and then we could hear the fun of the various pitch invaders, which I think the crowd themselves are in great spirits.

11:28Alfie Reynolds: At the Accor, there's this absolutely enormous Jumbotron screen at one end, which is really cool, actually. It's a very American style, that, isn't it? And on it flashed a message that said, everyone from rows 1 to 19 has to get out basically get back into the concourse and some people took heed of that and some people definitely didn't some idiots were running on the field and then we got notes coming through from Lions comms guys and other Rugby Australia guys as well saying they can only come back on half an hour after the Lightning has cleared 10 kilometers away and then we're going to have to agree how long we can warm up for and all of that and look there's probably going to be a lot of sort of Captain Hindsight stuff on this pod now because the Lions have lost but it felt like the Australians won the break.

12:15Will Kelleher: Totally so I think that is the interesting thing to come out of this and from the press conferences we've just been sat in and again because I was in the tunnel and you had Stan and Sky doing live hits in the tunnel you had officials chatting to kind of team managers from both sides and saying okay it's gonna be half an hour you have to agree on how much time you have warming up and things like there was a lot of people working out on the who foremost of what the situation was but I think what has become clear from the post-match press conferences that was far more the Lions point of view than the Wallabies because Harry Wilson came in and said Joe Schmidt and the Wallabies basically they had a lightning plan well pretty much they thought this could happen look the Wallabies were winning the game at the time anyway the conditions are so difficult it may have made no difference to the result in the end but I think it's clear the Wallabies were way better prepared they said

13:05Alfie Reynolds: they were warned that there was lightning in the air before the game. And so they therefore came up with a plan in case they had to go off that they would keep the guys engaged, they would keep them reviewing what they'd done in the game, they'd keep balls around so they could play. And look, for a brief period we got some great footage on the TV of both the Lions and the Wallabies changing rooms and the Lions were sitting on beanbags, Finn Russell and Tom Curry were on their phones, which I was actually quite like, are they allowed their phones?

13:32Alex Lowe: I'm not convinced that's allowed.

13:32Alfie Reynolds: Because there's a lot of sports where you have to give your phone in before the match. For gambling and stuff like that. Because of gambling. And I think in, I've tried to check this out, but at World Cup certainly you do have to do that. Whereas the Lions series is kind of slightly different governance there. But then there was lots of chats. Clearly some of the Lions, I mean Tommy Freeman had been knocked out at that point. So he'd got changed and showered. And then there was laughing and joking we saw between Alex Mitchell and Owen Farrell and Blair King under the shirt off. And then suddenly you see, which is one of the great metaphors of this tour I think.

14:02Alfie Reynolds: David Nusifora, the head of high performance, realising after Finn Russell's clocked the camera and winked at it and had a laugh with it, that there is a camera filming what they're doing. And so he gets a towel and puts it over the camera so that no one can see what they're up to, which I just feel sums, I have to say, the lines up on this tour. It's cut things off, shut things down, no colour, no detail, don't give anything to anyone that isn't on our own channels. And I found that really revealing and really, really poor. if we want to grow this game and show the fun and excitement and difference of this game, that was a perfect moment to go, look how brilliant this is.

14:39Alfie Reynolds: And it reminded me, Alex, of, do you remember when we were here in 2022 for the England series and Quade Cooper pulled his car for his hammy before the game?

14:48Alex Lowe: Yeah, in Perth.

14:49Alfie Reynolds: And they grabbed James O 'Connor out of corporate, got him into the changing room and changed him out of a suit into Wallabies gear so he could sit on the bench. and we saw all of it on the TV because Stan Sports were filming it. And you think, isn't that brilliant? And the Lions had just gone, no, shut it off. I found that really, really revealing.

15:08Alex Lowe: There's plenty of examples of that on this trip. And there's one that really just irked me a bit on Thursday. So the Lions have their jersey presentation. There's a family who actually live in Australia, but are Brits who've been following the tour in a camper van. The mum, Kate, has terminal cancer. their oldest son was a mascot um in at the mcg i think they do a lot of work for cancer awareness and they've been i think covered on sky sports and in the media over here anyway they were invited to the jersey presentation on thursday and kate was was asked if she would speak to the team essentially tell her story given an inspirational message and then present maro Matoji with his test jersey which was clearly an incredibly moving thing for her and the family and the players but when she came to tell it on their on their daily Instagram video she had to say well I'm I'm having to tell you this I can't actually show you because it was an official event so we weren't allowed to film it and I was like really is that is that really what this Lions team is supposed to stand for that you invite somebody in who has got a very powerful message and it means the world to her.

16:19Alex Lowe: But the reason she's there is because you want to inspire the team and then tell them that they can't film it.

16:25Alfie Reynolds: And put it out on your official channels next week. I was disappointed in that.

16:29Alex Lowe: And that just links to Will's point about Noosephora and just the sort of mindset that surrounds the team. I don't think it's the mindset of the players or the coaches, actually. I think this is a mindset that's been around this team. Anyway, that's an aside. What was notable in the time that we could see the Lions in that lightning break was they took the let's chill out approach and the Wallabies were much more proactive. Joe Schmidt was walking around with his laptop having conversations as you say they kept the balls around being passed around.

17:00Alfie Reynolds: Jeff Parling was active in there as well. Yeah

17:01Alex Lowe: and by the way what a job Jeff Parling has done. Amazing all their second rows were fantastic weren't they? They absolutely destroyed the Lions in the set piece the line out which had been I think five line outs lost or won by Australia. Dan Sheehan came into this game I think with a 98 % record he only had one stolen I mean today he must have

17:23Alfie Reynolds: lost six two or three off him and then some off Kelleher as well

17:29Alex Lowe: the Wallabies did a brilliant job in winning every area Tupou who hadn't played I'm so pleased for him we had a lovely chat with him after the Waratahs game where he's like I've just had a really bad two years I'm really struggling with myself not in a good place and I know I'm probably not going to play. They lost Alan Alatoa and Tupou comes in and he monsters the scrum and he batters his way through the game line and he carries brilliantly. And they just won. They won all those set-piece battles. They won the collisions. They played the conditions way better than the Lions.

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18:39Will Kelleher: And it became one of those games I felt really quickly where an 8-0 lead wasn't an 8-0 lead. And early on in the game, and we were chatting about it on radio actually, you know those matches that so quickly, like an 8-0 lead is a 16-0 lead or something because it's so difficult to get points, it was so difficult to get pressure, and then the Lions were always chasing it and they just didn't quite, well, they didn't have enough at all in the end, did they?

19:02Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, look, it was so, so wet. But their skills let them down a bit, didn't they? There were so many dropped balls. They didn't have a lot of the ball. I think they had 40 % possession across the whole game, which actually is credit to Australia for pinning them back, kicking well. But almost they lost all the back-backs, and all those little half-passes didn't go to hand. But there were times where I felt they're forcing this too much. And look, maybe they didn't have the opportunity to take a three or take a drop goal or whatever, but they played quite poor wet-weather rugby, didn't they, really?

19:34Alfie Reynolds: And they've been quite an attacking Lions team, definitely compared to lots of other additions.

19:38Alex Lowe: It was definitely a day to not have the ball. and Andy Farrell was just saying exactly that they lost that tactical territorial possession battle because it was a day to give the ball back and go right try and beat us now we sat through England playing that kind of rugby in fine conditions for way too long around 2020, 2021 and then the 23 World Cup it's not beautiful but it can be effective but in the weather it was absolutely the way to play and they just then got a bit ragged I think that's where the pressure told some fatigue told Bundyaki had a nightmare game he made so many mistakes but a lot of them were just were pressure and fatigue I think

20:29Alfie Reynolds: So here's the next thought that's linked to that word you just used fatigue So firstly I think there's two lessons here if we're going to kind of take a slightly more like helicopter view. And we'll probably do a big old wash-up pod tomorrow, won't we? Before we all fly home. But number one, I think, is that 3-0 is really hard, isn't it, for a Lions team. Like, to win all three matches, almost regardless of the opposition, is really difficult. And that's related to the fact that you're at the end of your season, they're at the start of theirs and all that. But point two, I think, is that we keep getting to the position in these seasons where our best players have played 30 or more games and we keep being told they shouldn't be playing 30 or more games and people keep apologizing and nothing changes.

21:18Alfie Reynolds: So across the team today, Finn Russell has played 37 matches this season. Maru Otoji's play, that was his 33rd, Tygburn 33, Tommy Freeman 33, Tom Curry 29. So well done him, he got one game under the limit.

21:33Alex Lowe: Well, and 29 for Tom Curry is probably the equivalent of 37. And he went off injured.

21:37Alfie Reynolds: And look, you can't mitigate for KOs, but Atoji got knocked out. Freeman got knocked out. Byrne, man of the series, fair play to him. He's been very good, hasn't he? But when is the point where we start actually really making a difference on their stuff? And it was ironic, wasn't it? Because we had a moment on Friday where we were doing journalist welfare and we were like, God, this has been a 12-month season. for us as well. We look back at the first stories we'd filed from August last year and one of mine was players and clubs can get fined this season if they break the player welfare limit which by the way is 30 matches.

22:15Alfie Reynolds: So let's see if that's going to happen because yet again these top players in the premiership I mean Tiger Bird is slightly different because in Ireland they don't have that absolutely defined limit. In England slash the premiership we do and it now counts for people like Finn Russell even though he's Scottish. Let's see it and we shouldn't now see any of those guys until November. They should have 10 weeks off from now, mandatory, which would take them to sort of early October, so they should miss the first couple of rounds of the Prem. But they should get extra weeks off because someone like Maratoji's broken that limit twice now, Tommy Freeman twice now.

22:49Alfie Reynolds: So let's see it. Put your money where your mouth is. All of these people, whether you're Premiership, whether you're RFU, RPA, Team England Rugby, actually execute this stuff because we can't get to the end of these seasons every year and go, oh, sorry, we've broken it again.

23:04Alex Lowe: Andy Farrell misunderstood your question or answered a different question, one or the other. Because you asked him about exactly that and he was a bit affronted by the question and he was like, well, everyone said Tyburn shouldn't have played the first test. Insert, not everyone said that. But anyway, everyone said Tyburn shouldn't play the first test. Well, he's a man in the series, he had enough energy, didn't he? He did all right. Yes, brilliant. Tyburn was fantastic. that's not the point that you were making or the question you were asking what you said was is it sustainable to ask Tygburn to come in and have to deliver a man of the series performance where he's played even in Ireland where we talk about how well they're managed it's his 34th game of the season Maru Otoji or Tommy Freeman your question was not about should he have dropped Tygburn because he's hit a limit no it was more like are they going to manage him next year How is the game going to sustain itself with these elite players if they keep playing 30 plus games?

24:06Alex Lowe: Which links to conversations that I was having in Sydney this week and I made it the theme of my preview. Is it any wonder that international players are having their head turned by R360 when they're being offered really good money to play a maximum of 18 club games a year? it's no you know it's one of it's one of that competition's selling points to the players and i think it's different in different countries but one of the selling points of the players is less is more is we'll play you for maximum 18 games in in a season and and that was actually the point of your question it wasn't the answer that you got but it was a perfectly it was a

24:45Alfie Reynolds: very important question oh thank you but it was for the first time yeah we did you did a bit of good question chat on the pod that I missed the other day. And by the way, I wasn't watching the cricket, I just did go to sleep. So sorry about that. But bring it back to the match.

24:58Will Kelleher: Were you not still messaging later that night?

25:00Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, well, I was on the phone to home, I guess, as well. So, you know, I thought it would be nice to rotate the cast and get everyone a go.

25:06Will Kelleher: Well, listen, you know, in terms of pod minutes. I wasn't doing the Andy Farrell. We were monitoring your pod minutes. Yeah, exactly.

25:12Alfie Reynolds: But just bring it back to the match. And again, I said it earlier, there are fair, there will be a fair few Captain Hidesight bits in this but the bits that the Lions lost the game in was in the forward play the physicality and like no wonder because all of their massive forwards have played a lot of matches this season and someone like and maybe it's a bad example to use with Will Skelton because he plays in the top 14 but generally the Australian pack has probably not played as many minutes as the Lions have and they beat them in the scrum they beat them in the line-up and they beat them for physicality and gain line and niggle and everything else didn't they but that's also a complete reversal on what we saw in the first test yeah and actually good should we do a bit on australia because like good

25:56Will Kelleher: on them for bringing it back right okay yeah so on that i think that really the fascinating thing about this game and this result is it changes almost the whole complexion of how we reflect on the series like we were talking about lions potentially 3-0 historic first time in a century Wallabies arguably the worst opposition the Lions have ever faced certainly in the professional era and all of a sudden now you're looking at this and like well hang on the Wallabies won tonight they will feel they should have won at the MCG they didn't turn up at all in the first test and you're looking at this series in a totally different way

26:30Alex Lowe: does it actually help frame it because if the Lions had won it 3-0 and they'd have proclaimed themselves to be one of the great Lions teams and we'd have had to go yeah but you know look at the quality of the opposition i don't think this was one of the great lines you know we were one of the chats we had this week was one of the beautiful pub hypotheticals would how would this lions team fare against any previous lines team like 97 2017 09 sort of yeah i think i think i'd pick the other lines team from pretty much most of them i just That's just where they are. I mean, it's not a criticism. It's just they've picked the best players and that's just where they are.

27:13Alex Lowe: But had they won it 3-0, they would have been celebrating themselves as being one of the greats. And I would have struggled to buy into them being one of the greats.

27:21Alfie Reynolds: And it's funny, isn't it? Because I think it was slightly tongue-in-cheek, but Ian Payton from the Sydney Morning Herald, who we've had on the pod back in November, has called this series the asterisk already. Because of that decision. Because of the Tisano Jack Morgan.

27:36Will Kelleher: It was really funny in the lift in my hotel over the last few days. I bumped into the same Wallabies fan a couple of times. And both times I've heard him say to different people, it's the decider tonight, it's the decider tonight. It's like the moral ashes, isn't it, when England do that.

27:52Alfie Reynolds: But look, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because again, as we say, we're all talking about 3-0. And look, hilariously, I don't know why we said this, but before the game on our live blog,

28:04Alex Lowe: Don't admit this, Will.

28:05Alfie Reynolds: Me, Alex, and Slotty put down our predictions for the scoreline. I went like 40, 15. You went like 30, 5, 10. Slotty went for something similar. We were expecting 50 points in that. I mean, that wasn't very clever. It had stopped raining. It had stopped raining for like three minutes. We were like, oh, this is going to be great now. But when you flip it to the end, where we are now at 10 past one in the morning, it's the closest line series in history. 68, 67.

28:28Will Kelleher: But isn't that so funny? So weird. But isn't that, because if you just told everyone that statistic, you think wow you've seen one of the great series and i don't think as much as a privilege it's been to be here and as amazing as the mcg was i don't think it will be remembered as an all-time great

28:43Alex Lowe: series did we not say before the first test that or at some point on this adventure around australia that we could foresee it being fairly low quality series but quite well thought and therefore it could still feel like a like a great contest even if you're not talking about two of the greatest teams it's not the greatest Lions team be the world champions it's a rung or two below that but if they're level and it's intense and you could still get a great contest and our disappointment in Brisbane was that we didn't have that and the beauty of the last two tests is that we really have had that and I just really enjoyed tonight and I really enjoyed the spirit um and I thought the Lions kept going.

29:25Alex Lowe: I thought there was a lot of credit in...

29:28Alfie Reynolds: They defended... Scoring that late try actually meant that they won the series on the points accumulator as well.

29:35Alex Lowe: The heart with which they defended, they were putting themselves through the ring and Tom Curry again just... I was chatting to Slotty and I felt that I think Ty Byrne is the right man in the series.

29:47Alfie Reynolds: There's two men in the series.

29:49Alex Lowe: There's a sponsors one that was done on an app which gave you the opportunity to just let the app select your choice.

29:57Alfie Reynolds: It was like, can I skip the bit where I pick the player and can I get to the bit where you capture my data? Yeah, it's like those fantasy football teams where you can just go pick me a team.

30:05Alex Lowe: Pick it for me. So yeah, that was... What is the point? So Ty Byrne, I think, was absolutely the right choice. Man, the series. But I reckon if you play a Cam to Tom Curry tonight, you would have found him. Well, you probably couldn't because most of the time he was at the bottom of something, under a pile of bodies, getting stuck in. I don't think they lacked heart. They were just out-passioned. You asked a question, actually, on that pod, Alfie, when we were in the hotel. Who needs it more? And I think we saw who needed it more.

30:37Will Kelleher: Yeah, and I suppose as well also, you know, the Lions, ultimately, their goal here, even though they said was to win 3-0 and be the greatest Lions team ever, was to win the series, and not many Lions teams do that. And they have done that here, so credit to them. A couple of questions just finally for you, lads. I want to revisit one. I think I asked you and Slotty Alex on the pod the other day. I think my question was how badly does this Lions team need 3-0 as their legacy now that we're here and they haven't got that. I'll come on to the Wallabies and the question on them in a minute. But what does losing this Test match do for this iteration of the Lions?

31:11Alex Lowe: Well, it probably gives a fair reflection of where they are. I think 3-0 would have allowed people to attach a label to them that was probably not deserved when you look at the great history of Lions teams. So it's probably a reflection of where they are. I think the Test Series ultimately has put to bed any of that chat about whether the Lions should come back to Australia. I don't think it's put to bed the chat about how you formulate a tour of Australia.

31:42Will Kelleher: Yeah, I think we'll come on to that on our wash-up.

31:44Alex Lowe: Yeah, but that's a very different question. But yeah, I think it's probably left them about where we think they deserve to be, which is series winners, slightly better than Australia, but not one of the great Lions teams.

31:58Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, I would say very good, but not great. And as in, I don't mean not great as in they were rubbish. I mean, not great with a big capital G as in one of the greats. They're not the 1974 team. Yeah, exactly. And like, there's no shame in that. Like that was the greatest Lions team of all times. And actually Andy Farrell spoke about it. You asked him a few questions about this on Thursday when he picked the team about the whole 3-0 narrative. And he was kind of going, well, why not aim for the stars? And if you land on a cloud, fair enough. And that's sort of what they've done, isn't it? I don't begrudge them whatsoever being bullish and positive and telling us that that was their narrative.

32:41Alfie Reynolds: And I liked it. They were owning the pressure of saying, we want to be the best and 3-0 it and all that. I think that was cool.

32:47Alex Lowe: Yeah. And I don't think they've failed. as he said he had to set that aspiration because those are the standards that he expected of his team now they've won the series they've fallen short tonight and they weren't the better team today they go home with series wins you can never take it away from them and I think your question Alfie was where does it put them in the sort of pantheon the pantheon of Lions teams and it certainly puts them in the top quarter because they won the series and that ultimately separates them from very many Lions teams including some that were probably better teams.

33:21Alfie Reynolds: Yeah.

33:22Alex Lowe: 0-9 is better team. 0-1 maybe.

33:24Alfie Reynolds: 0-1 better team. 17. I regret it forever that they didn't win here.

33:27Alex Lowe: 17 drew the series. All three I think will be better teams but they did win the series. You can't argue.

33:33Will Kelleher: And all the players are already planning 12 years time to be back here. I did say to Alex Mitchell in the mix zone that we hear you're planning to come back in 12 years. You guys will all just be on the corporate gravy train, won't you? And he basically was like, yeah, hopefully. Pollock's like, I'll be captain, don't worry about it. Yeah, exactly. yeah well he said Finn Smith and Pollock might still be playing but the rest of us will be out here shall we just finish off on one on the Wallabies because and look anyone can be Captain Hindsight and a Monday morning quarterback and look back on ifs, buts and maybes but I just find it impossible sitting here now and we've touched upon it already not to look at this series and the Wallabies and think oh what an opportunity that first test they were so unprepared you called that at the time

34:16Alfie Reynolds: they were so unprepared I can't believe they weren't prepared for that. And that's still what we think now, isn't it?

34:20Alex Lowe: We also said at the time, go play. If Skelton and Valentini are fit to play Test 1, you have to play them Test 1 because Test 3 might not matter.

34:28Alfie Reynolds: But it also, and we said this at the time as well, didn't it just feel that they were waiting? Are they going like, oh, well, don't because South Africa? And you're like, well, that's what they said. Screw South Africa. It's a mind series. They might not ever come back if you're that rubbish.

34:41Will Kelleher: And I know, again, you asked them this in the presser wheel about, and we've spoken about it on the pod loads. it's been one of the main talking points of this whole tour of the opportunity in front of rugby in Australia and the crowds have been brilliant and imagine if this was a decider, imagine if this was a decider the Wallabies have won, I still...

34:56Alfie Reynolds: You can imagine the chaos if it was by the way with all the lightning No mate, it would have been ridiculous

35:00Will Kelleher: but I really do feel like there's a bit of a missed opportunity here for Australia and there is an element of that that I completely accept is Captain Hindsight but I can't help but shake that feeling really.

35:10Alfie Reynolds: And I was trying to ask Joe Schmidt about this and let's be honest he's probably not the salesman that Eddie Jones was. I don't think that's a harsh thing to say and that's never been the way he operates but to me I thought that's quite a good sales pitch for Australian rugby isn't it? And look there are lots of people wearing red shirts here who aren't coming back in a couple of weeks or whatever or not coming to an Argentina game or a Bledisloe or you know what I mean. But 80 ,000 people here, 90 odd thousand in the MCG, 50 odd thousand in the Suncorp sold out. There were Australians in the crowd there who probably haven't been to a rugby union game before.

35:43Alfie Reynolds: There were two NRL games on around Sydney today, one in St George, one in Manly, and there were probably more Australians or a similar amount of Australians at those games than there were here tonight. But that's a Wallabies performance that you can go, all right, so they're actually not going to lie down and take it. They have got some character. They do have some great players. Like, we haven't talked about Nick White. I mean, as Christy Doran from The Raw, who we had on the pod the other day, wrote the other day, he's going to have the shortest retirement in rugby history because Jake Gordon is injured so he's now sort of not retiring but he was brilliant and so Ali, I think that was probably one of his better games of union wasn't it Looking forward to seeing Tom Hooper Tom Hooper at Chiefs who they've said is a bit of a sabbatical and he's going to come back but you're like, there's a lot there now, which we didn't see in Test 1 at all, we didn't see the Fiji game where you can go, okay so by the time we get to the rugby championship and they come up to Europe and they play England and then two years on we've got a world cup here this is a team that you can get behind if you're

36:47Alex Lowe: australian isn't it yeah yeah it is it is so alvi you said that was the last part of the pod but it's

36:53Alfie Reynolds: not quite the last part of the pod we're taking over now oh here we go well we had a drinks night

36:59Alex Lowe: on friday british and irish media some aussie media there are a few few farewells we needed to say you need to raise a glass to a few lost colleagues. And once the serious stuff had been done, Will and Rory O 'Connor from the Irish Independent performed an awards ceremony for us all. Okay. And a few prizes were given out, but there were also a few absentees. Quite a lot of absentees, annoyingly. And you were one of them. I was, yeah. Let me hand over to William Killerman. Will's just gone digging in his bag, by the way.

37:31Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, if you said some rustling, that was because I was getting her out this present. So this is a present for Alfie Reynolds, the longest serving tourist of the 2025 lines. We're calling him the Man of Steel. Because when did you arrive here, Alfie?

37:45Alex Lowe: Around the 18th of June? 18th of June. 18th or 19th or something like that. Let's provide some context to the awards. So Alfie is our Man of Steel and he shall receive his award shortly. We also had awards for the journalist who arranged, Dan Schofield from The Telegraph, who arranged all the paddle for everybody. Yeah. We had... Wellness winner, Duncan Beck.

38:08Alfie Reynolds: Duncan Beck from the Press Association. Encouraging people to get to the gym and not just go to pubs and eat pies.

38:13Alex Lowe: Putting on personal training sessions in the gym for people. So those are the kind of awards that were given out.

38:18Will Kelleher: Can I just ask on the flip side of that, what did Josh Graham and Kev Quigley get as the complete opposite of the Duncan Beck award?

38:25Alfie Reynolds: This is almost too much of an in-joke, but let's just call them the Bazballers. Okay. They got little Bazball bats. for their performance on nights out. Can we call it that? Yeah, I think so, yeah. And so for Alfie Reynolds, he's a Man of Steel. And so we have got you your Man of Steel trophy, which no one can see, but I'm giving it to Alfie here. It is a mug with Alfie's face on it. And I've taken a screenshot of your YouTube channel, Alfie.

38:52Will Kelleher: I was going to say, this is where my YouTube channel has come back to, well, maybe not by me.

38:56Alfie Reynolds: And it is you at the MCG puffing your cheeks out, looking absolutely exhausted after the second test.

39:02Will Kelleher: Well, after we finish recording this, I'm going to be doing another video where I'll probably look similar. But thank you very much. There you go.

39:07Alfie Reynolds: But hang on, we haven't completed it because you're 18th of June, you arrived. And when are you leaving? Wednesday, so whatever that is. Wednesday. So that's going to be like the 5th of August, 6th of August. 6th, I think, yeah. I mean, that is a stint, isn't it? And you do have an Australian wife, so you have other reasons. I also... You've been on tour longer than anyone else,

39:25Will Kelleher: so that's your Man of Steel award. I have. You know when the cliche in sport when they say, be good at the things that take no talent? I feel like this is an award that is purely down to... You've literally just been here longer than everyone else. TalkSport just booked my flights earlier than everyone else. Well played.

39:40Alfie Reynolds: You can give that to the floor 17 in London Bridge if you want. Donate it to TalkSport.

39:46Will Kelleher: No, no, this will be having pride of place in my cupboard at home. So thank you very much. We'll take a picture of it and I'll put it on my social media

39:54Alfie Reynolds: so people can actually see what I've given them. There you go.

39:56Will Kelleher: Well, there you go. that was an ending to the pod that I wasn't expecting and no doubt none of you were as well. So, blimey, probably today, later today, we'll try and do our wrap-up pod.

40:05Alfie Reynolds: I suppose we could just go to the pub now and just do it. But maybe we need to sleep. Do you know what?

40:10Will Kelleher: It was really funny when I saw you afterwards in the presser, Will, and you said, well, that thunderstorm delay means we're going to be even later. And the first thing I thought of when I was getting turfed off the pitch and down the tunnel was like, well, this has changed my 3am finish into a 4am finish, hasn't it? Purely selfish.

40:25Alfie Reynolds: But it's been great fun, hasn't it?

40:27Alex Lowe: Oh, it's been great. We've enjoyed it. And we'll do a sign-off tomorrow.

40:30Will Kelleher: We'll have a good wrap-up.

40:31Alex Lowe: We'll see you on the roof of the Glenmore later today.

40:34Will Kelleher: Where we'll be falling asleep into our pints, probably. But thank you very much for listening. This has been our wrap-up of the third and final test. It wasn't to be a famous 3-0 for the Lions 2-1 series victors. And there is a heartbeat in the Wallabies as they head into a home World Cup in 2027. Thank you so much for listening. One more podcast on Australian soil coming your way. If you do want to drop us an email, theruckatthetimes.co.uk is the email address and we'll be with you. This sounds weird. Later on today.

41:23Alfie Reynolds: Don't always know when a joke lands. She had one note. Tell listeners it only takes minutes to build an agent. So, minutes. Create your own AI agent today on Monday.com.