We're in Australia as George North looks back on his iconic 2013 tour

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1:10here we are with the sounds of the waves from the Indian Ocean in the background this is the Ruck the journalist's rugby podcast from the Times and the Sunday Times boots on the ground down under in australia in perth welcome back i'm alfie reynolds will kelleher shades on looking into the sun we're here will yeah we're here we've got the sand between our toes we were just looking at the map and we're on the outpost in western australia here in perth and if you kept going out that way to see and went past the little i think it's called rotterslow island that's over there and kept going and going and going and going the next thing you hit is south africa it's amazing isn't it completely in the middle of nowhere yeah and look my fun facts we'll hear later in the pod about western australia but no it's great to be here i'm sort of running on flat whites and caffeine at the moment because i landed we're recording this on monday afternoon i landed on sunday afternoon and it's been a whirlwind already we've seen the lions arrive we've done a welcome to country ceremony over in king's park the botanical gardens we've got lines interviews coming up this afternoon we've gone and seen a hero from 2013 it's all going on Alfie so we've already spoken to George North that was about three hours after Will had landed at Perth that we were already getting an interview for you I've been this is now my sick day here and I still am not sleeping properly so you're not there I don't know if it's necessarily going to get any better for you but it's interesting so I arrived on Wednesday and it's been absolutely miserable in Perth by the way today is great we're standing in the sun here and it's brightening up this week it's been a lot and lot of rain and it's been a bit of a slow burn but it feels like we've really launched into it now.

2:47So as you say, we went to the airport yesterday to have a very, very quick chat with Andy Farrell, the Lions fans. Two and a half minutes, I think it was. I mean, he had flown for 20 plus hours, so he's probably desperate to not say too much. Yeah, I think we can understand that. So we had a quick chat with Andy Farrell, but the Lions fans were there to greet the players. As you say, we had the welcome to country today in the Botanical Gardens. We had a didgeridoo. We had a smoking ceremony. some of the lions sort of whiffed the i think it was burnt eucalyptus leaves and things like that that we had that was a very nice cultural ceremony and maratoji the captain obviously gave us kind of lions's response and thanking for all that that was good fun over in the botanical gardens and yeah now we've decamped down to the beach side because they're all going to go for a little swim post training this is lions tradition a lot of touring tradition as well i know you've done it before with england when they've been in australia but everyone's going to get in their budgies and jump in the sea which by the way if i look out there at the moment bearing in mind it's it's quite fresh doesn't it it's winter here in australia i mean it's pretty pleasant here in perth so but for the locals point of view i can see one other person out there so i'm interested to see which lions run in and immediately run back out and also we were talking to a few uh people from the british consulate earlier who were at the welcome to country ceremony and they were saying well they were warning us that there's a shark alarm here on the beach so if there's suddenly a massive alarm that goes off we probably better scarper because jaws is on his way well i had heard that you couldn't swim in the ocean at perth because there's so many sharks so anyway the lions are going to be down here before we get to that will and before we get to george north we'll speak a little bit about the argentina game although as we're standing in now it feels like absolutely ages ago let's update people though on this morning the news coming out of australia down under today we had a chat with the lion ceo ben calverley after the welcome to country and he got asked about Australia releasing players for the tour games, which people might have seen as been a story already.

4:39It's been suggested that Joe Schmidt isn't going to release all of his Wallabies and Ben Calvary was pretty interesting on it. Yeah, so he's put his head above the parapet and I guess we could say possibly the start of a little bit of a row here because a theme of lots of these Lions tours is that some of the tour games are not very competitive and we saw that in South Africa last time and there were lots of reasons for that because it was COVID and the Springboks therefore couldn't leave the kind of Springbok bubble and go back and play for the Sharks or the Stormers or the Bulls or whoever. So those games became silly blowouts really and there's no proper prep there for the Lions for the Test matches and in some ways you thought, well, that probably benefited South Africa that time but there was nothing that could be done about it.

5:19Whereas in 17, the Crusaders front row who played for the All Blacks played and Sonny Bill and Riku Ioane played for the Blues against the Lions whereas this time Joe Schmidt's determined to protect his test wallabies although he's slightly reneged on that because that was something he said a few weeks ago and caused a little bit of a stink among the Lions because in the tour agreement their contract that they have with Rugby Australia they're meant to release test players back for the tour games and so Schmidt the other day picked his squad for their Fiji game which is their sort of test series warm-up match on July 6th the day after the Lions play the Waratahs and he said look okay well I'll let five of my Western Force Wallabies play so that's Dylan Peach, Tom Robertson, Nick White, Nick Champion de Crepingy and Darcy Swain but some of the other Force guys aren't going to play and we asked the Lions execs about this today and Ben Calverley was like well that would basically be a breach of the tour agreement the agreement says the test players should have to play for the Wallabies and I think they're worried on a couple of fronts First, the Lions team don't get good enough preparation for the Test Series, which would be an Andy Farrell concern.

6:31But then there's the whole, like, we know full well how commercially rampant the Lions are and how much they've sold these tickets on the back of matches that should be competitive. And they're worried that if they become blowouts, then the whole sort of tour thing doesn't really work. And look, they've made it quite clear that they are open to looking elsewhere for tour venues in future. and so they weren't prepared to make the link between the Wallabies not playing in the tour games and therefore maybe in 12 years time they don't come back here. But I think that's a live discussion. We've had it on the pod a few weeks ago.

7:03They're quite keen to look at France, to look at the US, to look at Fiji, Japan and other games. So if the Wallabies can't sustain a tour, then that's a problem. And let's see how Schmidt responds because, yeah, Rugby Australia might be getting a wrap across the wrists by the lines there. Yeah, and we asked them about Argentina today because off the back of the game on Friday night and Argentina winning that, you see a lot of people saying the Lions need to be touring Argentina. They didn't give us too much, but you do just wonder whether it is the sort of thing that if the Lions feel like they're not getting what they necessarily want from Australia in terms of the competitiveness of the tour games or anything like that, whether that helps them make a decision of looking elsewhere for some of these tours.

7:39I guess the Pumas were awesome on Friday in Dublin, weren't they? And sort of no surprise, really. They're a good side, yeah. the fifth ranked side in the world they've beaten springbox away new zealand away the lions away france slightly rotated team and they've battered the wallabies in the space of the 12 months so fair play to them i guess the issue of doing a full tour to argentina is they don't have who are you playing yeah but and i know from talking to other lions management and things like that that they are keen to retain that thing of you're playing one host country rather than doing a sort of smorgasbord of test nations across the world but they're keener to add these games before the tour so if they were to play france on the way to new zealand or if they were to play argentina on the way to somewhere else or japan and fiji for example that might come into it but should we talk about friday briefly very very quickly can we just mention andy farrell at the airport yesterday no so no players have been called up when we're recording this unless the lions throw us a curveball later which means we're immediately out of date and they haven't told us already but No more players called up following Argentina.

8:43But Andy Farrell's tone at the airport yesterday when we did speak to him for two minutes was very different to, I think, what he was, maybe not what he was saying, but the tone of what he was saying after the Argentina game. Yeah, so I was on my way to Australia and you were already here when the Lions played in Dublin and they were super downbeat after losing that game, weren't they? Like Tom Curry, hopefully people have read the piece that Alex wrote from Dublin. It was his quite strong quotes basically going, we've got six weeks we can't be making excuses saying we've only just joined up um and finn smith was quite downcast andy farrell was talking about the sort of totally unacceptable elements of the performance but having had 48 hours and 20 or so of them on a flight he sounded much calmer didn't he at the airport but he also said so i asked him no players called up so fully clean bill of health after the argentina game and he was kind of goes well at the moment we've got a few players that we're looking at yeah so the two that are milder concerns than anyone else are Jamison Gibson Park who's got this glute injury that saw him pulled out of the URC final and then Hugo Keenan who's got a calf problem and he hasn't played since the 31st of May both of them are here they are we've seen them around they were at the welcome to country stuff we'll ask the Lions later on how much they're actually able to train at the moment but at the moment no cover for them but But the full-back thing's interesting because Blair Kinghorn's not here yet because Toulouse have got their top-four team final against Bordeaux this Saturday.

10:09So he's not going to be here until early next week. So he'll miss the Brisbane game as well, you're sure. So his first game will probably be the Sydney match at a push because he will have got off a flight four days earlier. So then you've only got Elliot Daly and Marcus Smith, really, who are absolutely fully fit and available. And Marcus Smith, I guess, would always see himself as a 10 and has said so. But he played at 15 on Friday, struggled a little bit under the high board, couldn't quite connect the attack together that brilliantly. Elliot Daly's a two-time tourist before this one, isn't he?

10:39But maybe wouldn't see himself as a 15 either. So you're sort of going, hmm, where's the fullback here if Keenan's not fully fit? Indulge me and let me get ahead of myself for a moment. Just if those two players don't pull through, who do you think would be getting called up at nine and at fullback? Because actually, I'm not sure. Well, nine was interesting that Jack Van Porfleet was the cover that they had in Dublin, and he's gone back into England camp. So surely it would be him. So you would guess it's him, because the understanding's always been with these guys who came in for training, so like Asher Apoka, Fordjaw and Jamie George, is they weren't there to just carry bags.

11:12They are genuinely the next cab off the rank. And lots of people were surprised that JVP got picked, but I guess the other one that might have been was Ben White, and he was playing for Toulon in the top 14 playoffs, whereas he's now available. So it'd be interesting if Gibson Park ends up not being fit enough, who they'd call out first. Fullback? Fullback is more difficult. I guess if he was absolutely flying and fully fit, George Furbank would be a really good option. And then the Saints cohesion thing comes in with Finn Smith and Mitchell and Freeman and Pollock. But he's not played that much.

11:45They didn't play for England. Joe Carpenter played for that England 15 game. Had to go off early in the Champions Cup final. And he's had this struggle with an arm injury, hasn't he, that's been plaguing him all season since he broke it in Pretoria against the Bulls earlier in the season. So, yeah, I mean, answers on a postcard from theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Who's a fullback who could come in? One to keep an eye on. On to the Argentina game. As you've mentioned already, really interesting reaction from Andy Farrell and the Lions in that he said it was unacceptable, that it wasn't good enough. In all honesty, Will, I was really surprised because I watched that game and I thought, of course you don't want to lose.

12:23But I thought, given the fact that it's the Lions' first game, they've had two weeks together of which some of the players haven't been there the whole time. So there's only been some of them that have been together for the two weeks. There was some good stuff there. There was stuff to build upon. I thought they were going to say, well, we're disappointed to lose, but do you know what? We can build upon that. Yeah, they looked like they were trying to attack way more than I expected. and one of Farrell's main concerns was that they were throwing unnecessary off-flows and I think Maritoji called it tippy-tappy football in a sort of derogatory way saying there was too much sort of flicking the ball on but yeah I guess it's one of those where it's like why do they need to force those passes and Andy Farrell's attacking system with Ireland is always quite intricate isn't it so maybe the point he was trying to make was I want us to get to that position but I don't think we should be trying to throw and force those extra throwing out the back passes yet when we're not that cohesive.

13:14And I think you could see that because they went wide earlier than they probably wanted to do given that they picked Aki and Tua Pallotti. They didn't really use the power of that centre partnership, did they? No, I mean when I was there last week in Dublin a theme of the team announcement was this is one of the biggest Lions back lines. Like look at all these four guys over 100 kilos, 16 plus stone and it didn't look like a very Warren Ball-y 2013 kind of game plan. It looked very much like move the ball, move the ball, move the ball, offload, offload, offload, and it all got a bit messy, didn't it?

13:44Do you think as well the Farrill reaction and quite how strong he was? I just wonder whether we've spoken about it recently and listeners of The Rock are going to be able to hear it in a lot more detail with a special series we've got coming out, which we'll tell you more of later, but the 1974 Lions are the only ones who are unbeaten. The Invincibles. I could be totally wrong here. It might be purely about performance. I wonder whether there was a part of Farrell that actually, A, it's about setting a standard. And B, he thought, I think we can win all the tour games. Win every game. I think we can win this Test Series 3-0.

14:18I think we could be a legendary Lions team. And then straight away, game one, bang. Bundiaki referred to that, actually, after the match and was saying that we wanted to win every match. And so they've already messed that up. Spoken about it. And look, they still have the quality and the potential to win every match in Australia, but then there'll always be that asterisk of, yes, but you lost to the Pumas to start with. But let's see, look, I think we've teed up from far way out, and this isn't sort of being Captain Hindsight, that as much as the Lions look good on paper, it is really difficult to put it together in the space of a matter of weeks.

14:53And also, this maybe doesn't look like the most vintage Lions squad they've ever picked. But I still stand by that there were elements of that game on Friday, some of the intricate moves off set piece, off line outs and off scrum that looked like a classic Andy Farrell side. They looked like Ireland at times. And it was those bits that made me think, I think this team will be all right. What I would say is it's so interesting how Lions tours rattle along. Like we're saying it feels miles from Friday. And we're going to feel like that day after day here because the narrative changes every day. There's matches every three days after this week for the next three weeks.

15:26we're going to be moving every three days not knowing what city we're in and all that but if you slightly spool forward what might happen with the team it's quite interesting because the expectation this week Alfie is that the finalists play the Perth game so you can quite easily imagine a very Leinster heavy team that has Finn Russell at 10 maybe Thomas Williams at 9 because Gibson Park's not 100 % fit Will Stewart at tight head instead of Beelham or Furlong one of them and then goes onto the bench. Chesson. And Chesson maybe at six or second row, that would be interesting to see which position they put him in.

16:01And you think if they do a really good job and they play really well, they could quite quickly establish themselves as the Saturday team. And then the lads that played in the Argentina match become the mid-weekers. And the history of some of these Lions trips, and we'll talk to North about this in a second, is that if you're a player, you can get quite easily stuck in the mid-week team. So I think that's the challenge for some of these guys who played that Argentina game. It's like if you've got designs in a test jersey, You've got to force your way into this Saturday squad. Well, you've mentioned him there.

16:28Let's head over to a man who was here in 2013 and had, I would say, the two iconic moments of that series. The former Wales and British and Irish Lions winger George North. We caught up with him just after Will had landed in Perth. And also, I'd already spoken to him that day for Talk Sport. So it was the second time he was having to endure sitting down with me. But we'll be back the other side of George North.

16:55George North, welcome on to The Ruck. How are you doing? Very well, thank you. How is it being back in Australia with the Lions Tour just about to kick off, having last time, it been some of the highlights of your career? It is good. It's got busier as I've been here, which is nice, because when we first came, there wasn't much, you know, being obviously a massive sporting nation in Australia. Obviously, you mentioned why you're here, and people didn't really, obviously, what NRL, AFL, but now, obviously, there's a lot more hustle and bustle. Met some fans yesterday. I've had a few conversations with fans, you know expats here but also people that come out early and doing the full tour so um yeah it's exciting it's nice to be back yeah you've been you've been quite busy right so just talk what have you been up to see what talk kayaking right with yeah i almost pushed tim horan into the river in brisbane or he pushed me either or i don't know no i um it's been it's been nice obviously um you spend a lot of time touring different countries but i was actually full tourist without the rugby this time which is nice so we spent a few days in brisbane and then met up with Tim Horan, he showed me around the Platonic Gardens, went kayaking.

17:57Turns out Tim is a dab hand at kayaking. Okay. He's actually, I would call him semi-pro. He actually kayaks three times a week. Really? Okay. Nice. And he was giving me the chat and I was like, I'm out of my depth here on so many levels. And then we did the most Australian thing I've ever done. We did some beer yoga, which is, what are you laughing for? It was very serious. That's just combining two great loves, isn't it? It was exactly. IPAs and namaste. It was exactly. Namaste. and it's in in this place called Fellans Brewery which if you're in Brisbane I highly recommend to go there heading there next week aren't we indeed it's a unreal spot and then here in Perth yeah we and then yeah we actually went went that zip line off the bridge down by the Optus Stadium oh but because of the rain we actually did it the last one of the day and all the lights came on it's actually quite cool okay but while you were doing it no well it was so dark by the time we got to the top they were already on so it's like a disc on the way up you didn't get stuck like Boris Johnson I did have a flaggo same lid same hair no it was it was class yeah and then we actually you know we went to an AFL game in the Optus as well which was which was interesting because didn't really know what was going on I've just arrived today so if I sort of drift off halfway through this pod you'll know why having years of interviews with you I just think that's normal but like I have seen my first Lions shirt in the streets and we were just chatting off there before and Perth's a funny place because Western Australia as a state is absolutely enormous, isn't it, Alfie?

19:21Like, I was Googling on the way in, four times bigger than Texas and the size of Western Europe. But then it's got a little town kind of in the middle of nowhere and it reminds me a bit of Dunedin. So I've seen my first Lions shirt and, as you said, it's Sunday here and the Lions themselves are arriving a bit later, although I think they got a bit delayed through Qatar. So the gateway to the tour starts here. Did you, I'm trying to think now, 13 did stop off in place. from what I remember it was um we were only here like two three days max I think because we were was it three yeah maybe three four days max we're in and out with literally and then that's it's been quite nice to be able to spend a bit of time here actually go and walk around around then worrying about my legs being tired yeah yeah um but yeah so we were here uh very different um it's changed a lot in what it would do in 13 odd years wasn't it so uh or 12 years um sorry so So, no, it's been great.

20:15You know, like, we're down to Cottesloe. Down to Cottesloe, sorry. I'm saying like an English, British, but Cottesloe. So, like, yeah, the beach is there. Went surfing, like I said. A lovely brunch spot this morning. And, yeah, like I said, it's nice to be able to actually see the country rather than normally for work. Make it sound important. Yeah. For business, obviously, you're in a training facility, training ground, gym, play, airport, and gone. so it's been great to be here. So what are the keys I was going to ask you about kind of getting it right straight off the plane because 17 was a disaster wasn't it where the Lions turned up on the Wednesday or something and had to play on the Saturday and it was all very jet lagged, falling asleep on the bus type stuff so if you're a player still how do you get it right as a player stepping off a plane to be ready for a match so soon after you've arrived really?

21:07When they land today, it was Sunday and they played Saturday a bit longer than 17 was Yeah, so we've got a few more days to do it. There's different ways, and people will tell you their strategy and stuff, but I think you've got to try. For me, it's always trying to get on the country's time zone or time to time. Saying that, though, I've been here, what, 10 days, and I still don't know what day it is. So I'm trying my hardest. But luckily, I got in about 7.30 p.m., and then I managed to fight until about 11, and that first night was a bit ropey. and then you kind of get once you're in that cycle of the local time then I think it helps but there's people that say that you should be sleeping and on the plane and stuff but I ended up getting excited with the films and then they messed it up a bit What do you think will they all be doing?

21:55Will they have spent a few of those hours going through the Argentina match and trying to do their analysis or will it just be like, look, park that frustrating defeat, move on They've got enough time, haven't they? Do you know what I mean? I think they would do a little bit of homework a little bit of debrief and I think they'll probably do their big debrief when they get here. I think obviously they played Friday in Dublin. Friday, they flew Saturday so it's probably not enough time to do a full debrief so I imagine the boys would have done their individual work they've got enough time to speak with their analysis grab a laptop, do it watch it a couple of times the boys will know I think like we touched on in our first interview of the day they know very quickly at this level you know what you did what you didn't do and just look at the nuances of it but they'll have enough time and I think it's just a good time to grab your mate, have a chat, have another coffee, have another drink, have those conversations, start building those bonds.

22:47Can you talk to us a bit about that kind of, the challenges or maybe the good bits about how you get together quickly on Alliance? Because on your two, how did you try and connect with the guys that weren't in the Welsh squad as quickly as possible? Not just, well, game plan wise, I suppose, but then also bonding off the field. Lots of beers, is that? No, well, like... The broadcastable version. Yeah, no, I think for me, like, beers helps for sure. But I think for me, the big one is hard work. Hard work forms you. I think hard work bonds you as well. And I think that sort of early hard work together, early graft, shoulder to shoulder, brings people together, and the beers helps for sure, you know.

23:26Get the boys with a pint or two. They don't have to drink, but just get them in that environment where they're relaxed and they're able to talk more, ask a few questions. Boys that are a bit shy can ask, talk, and I think that really forms you and when you play for your country you spend weeks together, days together hours and all that together so you know what he's thinking you know where he's going his understanding and how you best help him and how he best helps you so after one game and I don't know, is it two weeks they were together? Yeah, a bit less It varies though, doesn't it? Because the finalists had only just a week as well isn't it really?

24:04So, yeah, it's an interesting challenge, isn't it, for the Lions, of how you get that group together when guys are joining at different times. Yeah, but I think now they're all together. I think this is when the real work happens. You know, the games now, obviously, Argentina game, you want to start with a W in a perfect world. Stuff happens. You know, when you're here, you play these provincial games very quickly. You know, they're a proud nation, proud rugby nation. They want to win every game. So you have to be on your money, have to be on your metal every second. and it's something that they'll know, the boys will know, they're not stupid to the pressure they're stepping into, but they have a few games to iron out the creases and get the combinations going.

24:43From 13, do you remember when it started to click? And I guess it must have helped because there was a fairly strong Welsh contingent of you guys who'd won a slam and all that. And then obviously you'd heavily beaten England that year, hadn't you, and won the title. So you were probably coming in bouncing and confident and lots of the backs have played together for a long time. But was there a moment or a match you remember that you thought, actually, this is kind of clicking as a whole game plan here? I don't remember as such just a singular match. I just felt the shift in the training week. I just think that, like, obviously you go, you know, obviously, like you said, 230 was heavily Welsh-focused, obviously with the form, as it should have been.

25:21And this tour, obviously, heavy Irish-focused with the form in Irish Sweden, and that's the way it should, and I think that's great. But obviously, some boys would never have worked with Andy Farrell. I mean, some boys would never have worked with his style or how he structures his week and how he structures his sessions. Same with all the backroom staff. Some boys in 213 and now we're at the Gats. And they were like, the way he trains, it's like, well, we don't know. It's interesting to see. So once everyone's on that groove and they understand the timings, the scheduling, the sessions, the session plan, what intensity you want from different parts of it, then I noticed once the training became, I know it sounds cliche, when the training became more in line and started to click the games started to click you know the form started to come and i think that just takes a bit of time you know like 10 days i think they said 10 days is not particularly a long time when you think about international caps uh international campaigns and someone like a tour like this now is what eight weeks you know it will take a good sort of two three four games before you start seeing well i hope it takes less than that but to give those boys i saw a cracking tweet yesterday from so i can't remember who on the journal said can we give the boys at least three weeks before we start slagging them off?

26:28I just thought that was brilliant. Like I said, it's time on feet. Time together. We'll bring them closer. That's where I was interested though in Andy Farrell's comments and how strong he was at the end of the game. They were very disappointed. Very downbeat, weren't they? We've already spoken about this a bit on the pod, Will, but my general feeling was pretty positive, whereas he was really negative, which is when you say can we give the boys a bit of slack? I'm like, well, sure, but the coaches don't see too much happen. I was going to ask George, though, just speaking about that and it kind of clicking and taking a bit of time.

26:57As a player on a Lions tour, is there an anxiety there or a pressure you feel of like, we've got to get this going at some stage. We've got a test series coming up in the not-too-distant future. So is there like a performance anxiety that you have to get to a certain place in time? It's like, without saying like a cloud over you, but it's that, you know it's coming. And I think that game against Argentina was exactly the first hit I was always going to be like. Having worked with and against Andy, I know the standards he keeps and he upholds in the squad. So he will be disappointed because that's the standard that he drives and that's the standard he wants and he expects.

27:33And obviously, ideally, any time you go on a tour as big as this with the pressure and everything that goes with the Lions tour, you want to start firing from minute one. And I think he was probably more disappointed that even though they didn't play particularly, they didn't light up the world, they had opportunities. And I think that's what he'll be more disappointed with, with the caliber of players that they couldn't get it together just to finish it off. But you flip it around, like I said, back to new combinations, players understanding each other. I think they'll gain a huge amount by easy fixes, just like tidying up the offload game, trying to force things, the aerial battle, that counter-attack, the defensive side.

28:15A few times it got caught narrow, Argentina exploited that. And it's probably, ideally, if they could have snuck a W there and still had that result, then there'd be a lot more positive. But I think that's just the standard that Andy wants to set the tone at for the tour. Obviously, Andy Fowle was your defence coach in 13 and a pretty inspirational figure we've seen through the DVD and all that. The Hurt Arena speech was the famous one. Do his accent as well. Sorry? Do his accent and say it. Oh, the Hurt Arena. I need to work on it through the tour. Will's good at accents, though. I was thinking, well, give it 10 more minutes.

28:48Isn't there a bit where he goes, it ain't about being here. It ain't about taking part. It's about winning, basically. That's pretty good. That's a long tour. You need to work on that. But what I was going to say was, what were your favourite memories of him and working with him and how he got the best out of you and the team as a defensive coach at that time? Yeah, because I never worked on him before that. And for me, I really liked his detail. When you have your system and your structure, it's very black and white. You know who your man is. You know what your channel is. you know your job on a counter-attack you know where you are in in set piece you know you can you know you can all this and it for me what got the best out of me was you know having worked with another scary northern defense coach yeah in Sean Edwards that there was the expectation was that you're there to do a job and you if you know you have the guidelines to work in if you don't do it you're held accountable and that kept me true and honest and it work keeps you sometimes up at night but that's the standard that is required at this level and it's very simple everyone's fighting for a jersey everyone's looking for their in and if you're not performing on one aspect of it you're told and that's the way it should be because you're here to do a job you're here to win a test series and that is what I found in 2013 that he knew his detail and what he wanted inside out so there was no gray area even when you had what you thought was a valid question or a valid opinion.

30:17It wasn't because it was his thing, his defence. And I think that is why, again, he was probably disappointed because that's the standard that he expects. That's what he wants to display. And there's no other option. That's as good as we have to be every time, every day. Did you like the pressure of that? Because that sounds pretty demanding, but it's probably what you'd expect in test level. Because later this week, we're putting out a special series looking through the whole history of the Lions. and we talked to Sam Warburton about 13 and your trip and the things he was saying about you. Sam was talking about you and saying that you almost had like, I don't know if this is the right phrase, but almost like positive affirmations through the trip about trying to be the best winger in the world and going up against Israel Folau and proving yourself as a top-class winger and all that.

31:03Did you like that pressure that people put on you? Because you were still, what, 21? 22? 21. 21. 21 a hell of a lot came very quickly for you yeah but you forget that i i had my first cap at 18 so already i'm two three years into international pressure so i think for me like like like i like anyone like you're there to do a job you know i mean and at that level international lines it's it's a beautiful place it's almost it's almost less pressure because you know you just have to do your job but there's pressure that comes with that then because you have to deliver your job the trust that you have to have and the bloke next to you either side of you the bloke that's defending behind you you have to have utmost confidence in them to do their job and my mindset was I have to be the best I could be every day so then I can win my one-on-one battle every game to be in that test jersey and that and the pressure that the coaches put on you and the pressure you put on yourself you could argue which is which is harder you know I I was probably I was always probably too hard on myself but to me that's what I felt like I needed to be to get the best out of me to make sure that when when those test jerseys came I was in one I want to ask you about the two moments your 13 moments one the first the try the first one how many times have you watched that back are you the sort that would flick on your instagram and go i quite like watching that or my kids have seen it about 100 times because the miles harrison commentary is awesome on it as well that he's been unleashed yeah did you like obviously you didn't know what was happening at the time and like the wider context of it while you're doing it but did that justify all of that pressure you put on yourself that that if you said to me that you'd I've been playing, what, 15 years now.

32:37You'd have to give 15 years, and you can only pick one moment to have. I'd 1 ,000 % have that one. Like, for me, the pressure that was built up over those provincial games, with the club games, sorry, the pressure that comes with the test series looming, the team we had, the coaching staff we had, the levels that they expected, my own expectations, and who I wanted to be, and how I want to play and go about my work was there as well. That first try for me, like you see after I score, I lay there on the ball for a good few seconds. And it's not through, well, obviously celebrating, but it's just pure disbelief.

33:19Playing for your country is the biggest honour for sure. And that's what drove me day to day to play for Wales. But being mentioned for a Lions tour was never in my mind because I just thought it was something that I would work as hard as I could, but never in that mix-up. and to score a track like that in the first test I think it was just pure disbelief and then you see as I then start jogging back and then the realisation of what I've actually done and then like I think it's I have watched it a couple of times for sure let's get that out of the way let's just get that off the table probably hard to avoid I see this time of year it's doing a few rounds now but I think you see the camera pans me and I think they're still kicking the conversion and then out of nowhere I just go I think that's the delay of like the lag in the system is sort of spit out but you know that that tour for me was incredible probably you know could argue some of my best rugby in terms of like the spectacle 1-1 all to play for last one in Sydney I mean you couldn't write it you know and then to finish the way we did was incredible the other thing I want to ask you about which I think I'm right in saying you've said you regretted but I think was awesome was the little finger wag as you went over the line to get here?

34:31Was that all part of it as well? Because after that I got a load of stick, didn't I? Did you? It wasn't... No, I don't regret it because it was an accident. I just didn't think he was as close as he was. So then I've gone from giving it to celebrating. Okay, up in the air. Yeah, to then realising, holy moly, he's closer. So you were going to sort of hand him off? I hand him off, but then obviously it's hard to explain that when the Australians just lost and they're shouting at me. I thought it was cool. It was cool. I spoke to Will and I said, look, man, I'm really sorry. And he said, oh, look, I was nowhere near you.

35:05Don't worry. It's like fair play to him. And yeah, and again, it's all part of it, isn't it? It builds another layer to the story and the Tessa is... Henry Pollock, he might give a finger wag if he gets one. He's a bit of a selly, doesn't he? They're going to hate Pollock if he... If they don't like celebrations, watch out. Yeah, exactly. George, I asked you this earlier, but I want to ask you again. but when you look at those two moments well you'd have to answer it um when you look at those two moments it like for me those two moments of the 2013 tour are the iconic moments in that 97 we talk about jerry's drop goal dawson dummy as well the dawson dummy as well there's the cameraman as well yeah yeah yeah and you've got you know o'driscoll's try in 01 like how lions tours produce these certain moments is that something that you're proud of that you've ever reflected on that almost your two moments are the iconic moments from 2013?

35:56Obviously the second one being the backpack wearing a falau. Israel falau, yeah. I think it's a huge honour that it's thought of in that same ilk, is that the right word? I think for me, like I said I touched on, I never thought I'd play for the Lions and it's probably one of the proudest things in my career that I've ever done and achieved. To say that I had an impact like that, you know, not once but twice is something that it just puts a big smile on my face because all those hours of work the sacrifice what you have to do, the travel, everything you have to give up and you have to give a part of you up to have those two moments and be spoken about in the same sentences as that is incredible and yeah it certainly puts a smile on my face Did the backpack wearing Falau one did you really realise you'd done that at the time?

36:46It was a terrible decision It seemed like the right thing to do He's sort of quite reactive because he's just on you and he's kind of like power through. I got an absolute Carlos Spencer from Drisco through his legs. And I get it. I look and I can't remember who it was. It was three Australian or four Australians and I've gone perfect. Four on one. Lesby Avenue. And again, I didn't think about it. I just, it's one of those ones like people ask me, what was I thinking? And the honest answer is my mum would back me up here. I wasn't thinking. I wasn't thinking. I was just doing. You know, you just got to run as hard as you can.

37:14That's sometimes the best way, isn't it? That's basically my 15 years, but I don't tell anyone. and um and i remember just running in just thinking just leg drive let's keep the ball going forward try and recycle it and as i've started pumping my legs the weight's it's gone a bit light and i've gone well i may as well keep going and then izzy's on the back and then next you know it's a like a scene out of wwe and i'm on like a ddt or whatever it's called a pretzel on the floor for a bit but um like again like was i thinking no did it feel the right thing to do at the time yeah do i regret it probably not but it's a it's a funny thing isn't it and it's given It was really cool.

37:48Epic moment. So I'm going to make, well, I don't know if this makes you feel old because we're, I think, almost exactly the same age. Anyone that says that, you know him for well is going to make me sound old. But I remember watching that series so vividly because that was my 21st birthday summer. And so I had mates around and we watched it in the mornings and obviously the first two ended with a last minute kick, didn't they? With Kirtley Beal missing and then Half Penny's dropping short, didn't he? But the bit that makes us feel old, I guess, because we're the same age, is that someone like Tommy Freeman was like 12 watching that.

38:18Do you want to feel even older? I asked Henry Pollock this. I've asked a lot of the players in the pre-tour media stuff, what's your first Lions tour? Plenty of them say 2013. Henry Pollock says 2017. And he would have been 12? Yeah, around that. And Marrow and Ty Furlong are playing with him on this trip? Elliot Daly. So if you think about it now, there's a 12-year-old out there now who's going to play with Pollock in like two tours a time. Well, I know it's bad, but even now playing with Provence Rugby, you're warming up and obviously trying my best to learn about French and trying to get to know your squad members and you're speaking to some of the ACAD boys that are training with us, the Espoir boys.

38:56And you're saying, when's your birthday? And they're going like... 92 is really hard in French as well, isn't it? Catre van dues. Sorry about you. It's really hard to do, isn't it? Let me just show you how. Yeah, but they're going like 2005, 2006. six and I'm going I'm going um we can't be friends and it's like um and that's just the way it is like for years for years and years I was the youngest and I just felt like mentally I was youngest but physically I was youngest as well and I for ages I always have and it seemed like it's clicked and then you got blokes warming up to you next to you 2006 and I'm going we can't be friends yeah that's not fair yeah yeah I'd love to ask you too I know we're reflecting a lot on 13 because we're back in Australia and everything else but what were your experience in 17 like as a contrast because lots of people have talked about that tour like obviously it was an unbelievable series wasn't it and ended in the weirdest way possible but I guess if you're kind of stuck in the midweek team if that makes sense there's been a few guys who maybe thought yeah no I had a test chance and then I was couldn't get out that Wednesday team maybe yeah very I was in that position I from 2013 where I felt like everything was going my way.

40:082017 felt quite the opposite, really. Coming off the back of a long season with the Saints, we got caught in that seventh-place position. Oh, yeah, but they used to have the playoff. Yeah, you had to play just to stay up. I think we played two games, and I popped the rib out in one, then I popped my SC out in the other, right before coming out on tour. And I remember just, you never want to go on a Lions tour not feeling confident. I wasn't feeling confident, I just wasn't playing as well as I knew I could. And it wasn't through lack of effort, or lack of want. It was just one of those things that happens, doesn't it?

40:39And I remember I just didn't get much time, much game time, and quite frustrated with it, actually, because in comparison, you know, by the time almost tests come, some boys have played six, seven games, and I've only played three. Yeah. You know, I missed out on the first test, obviously devastated, obviously devastated, and asking the question, why? And it's like, well, you haven't played enough rugby, you're not getting this. Yeah, and you're sort of like, well, I haven't been given a chance. Yeah, and you're kind of going, well, this is a, I'm not going to win this conversation. I know, but you respect the decision.

41:08You don't agree with it, but you respect it. And then they said, get yourself ready for that midweek game. And I played that midweek game, Hurricanes, and then scored a try, playing really well, set up a try. And then my hamstring tears from my bottom to my knee. And then you go, well, that's my chance gone. And hindsight now, that was the last time I'd ever put a Lions jersey on. and I was like well if this is you know you never know when the last game is in any situation but the Lions I was like well if this is my last Lions game then I'm going to keep going until everything falls off you know and then get dragged off and then it's the same game Robbie Henshaw did a shoulder so me and Robbie had a good few days after it but trying to drink to soothe rather than drink to celebrate but again like you know hindsight that was the last time I played in the Lions jersey and heartbreak you know and then I was hoping that I would be in the mixer for the second test.

42:04So, you know, knowing what I know now, I wish I would have not done anything different, but maybe put a bit more pressure on the coaches to give me more games at the time. But, you know, when the games come in thick and fast, you know, you'll get your chance. But I missed that one. And obviously in 21 with the COVID, with the SA tour, you know, ruptured my ACL, you know, was it two, three weeks before selection? I felt like I was in a good place in 21. I was playing some good rugby. Certainly put my hand up for selection. Whether I would have been picked or not, I don't know. 50 quid to Gats may have helped that.

42:33But I felt like on merit, I deserved a shout. But then, like I said, a month before selection, my ACL decides no party, big guy. And then that's my lines done. But like I said to you, if I could only have 2.13 as my only memory in rugby, then I'd take that. Because I'm thinking it's going to get established fairly quickly on this trip of the midweekers and the Saturday team, isn't it? Because they've got to kind of, like you would imagine, the guys that played Argentina won't play in Perth. They'll probably play the Leinster guys, Finn Russell, Will Stewart, Oli Chessom. And then suddenly you could find yourself sort of in the wrong team, couldn't you?

43:11So how hard is that as a player? When you're told you're like the best of the best and this is the dream and everyone wants to be in the tests, but then you've got to be this like ultimate team guy as well for the whole group. Yeah, I think these first four or five games, I don't think you can really read into the Saturday midweek. Because obviously, you know, they said the final boys have just arrived. They want to have a shot. Then you've got the beauty and the toughness of a Lions tour. The fact is you'll go, you know, you may start one, two, then you have to back up on a bench. So you're always in the mixer.

43:43Yeah, you're always in the mixer, and you've always got an opportunity to show and to shine. So the best thing you can do, and I felt from 2013, I had the opportunity to do that. 2017 less, obviously, I didn't have any game time. was when you're on, you've got to go as hard as you can, the best you can. And then you've got to finish, stop, recover, and you go again. And it's every day. And it's brilliant. It's amazing. Even training. Some people don't enjoy training. I enjoy training. The level that I experienced in training was incredible. And to do that every day, then a game to sort of test it, for me was an amazing opportunity.

44:26Amazing opportunity. Yeah. I'm going to be harsh now and ask you to play predictor. If you were to pick it now, what would be your backline for the first test? We did this before. We did this before. But he goes, how difficult it is. Can you name your start in 15? Go. And I was like, oh, brilliant. Thanks. Well, you can do the backs. No preheat in the oven. Straight in. Poor. Can you remember what we went for? Yeah. Just change it. I'm going to change it. I am going to change it. How about that? Completely different backline So it was torn between Gibson Park and Tomas Because there's not many Welshmen I'm going to go Tomas Yeah, fine Added a bit of tempo on Friday night, didn't he?

45:05Yeah, and the form he's in for Gloucester Prem player of the year Prem player of the year Sorry about Tomas So Tomas, Gibson Park We can fight over that if you want I think you'll probably win that If it was a physical fight Ten, for me, Finn Russell starts That's quite a flare, 9-10, isn't it? Well, wait for it. Uh-oh. We originally... George North at 11. Yeah, George North at 12, 13, 11. I'm going to change. I'm going to go, just because I can, because I've already said it in a different interview, I'll go Sione Terpilotto and Gary Ringrose. Okay. Breaking up Huey Pelotto there. Yeah, we went for a three Scottish 10, 12, 13 with Hugh Jones, but just because, well, it's a headache being a selector.

45:51I've just worked out the last two interviews and I think a bit of change you know then again if you flip it round and go Scottish 10, 12, 13 they go see I'm on the fence again now but we'll stick with it we go yeah as I said then back three I'm going to change again I am going to go James Lowe and Tommy Freeman I think that would be most people's favoured you had Duan I do just because it's a big body dynamic he's a very good player very tough to stop and then for me I go Blair at full back Okay. I think the way he's, obviously he's come back from injury, but. And shouldn't matter that he's joining late with Toulouse in the top 14 final, like he's not going to have many chances.

46:30Well, are we discussing the test team or the team to play Western Force? Yeah, true. Yeah, the test team. Test team. And then I, then I gave a caveat and said, depends on the bench, but then I also said another caveat in loose guidelines, that would be the selection. Yeah. Okay. Oh, I like it. Yeah, it's good. As it stands now, on my second interview, seven coffees in. And it might change again by the third interview. Yeah, yeah. And last one, what makes you worried about the Aussies? Like, about, well, everyone's excited to see lots more certainly. When I was being on the ground, speaking to a few expats over here, a few Wallabies fans, I just think, you know, very similar to Wales having a restructure, but they seem a bit ahead of Wales.

47:14You know, what did they, they bludded, what, 20, 19, 20, 21 players last year, last 18 months. they would have had a accumulated a few claps by now so they're not as they're not as fresh as you think he's obviously gone huge into picking on form on Super Rugby which I think is the way you have to go especially with the tour and what the challenges will bring I think the only international player all playing away is Will Skelton and obviously he brings he's quite good isn't he he's above average for sure he's amazing he brings that I guess that European rugby with Saris and La Rochelle and they're not two bad teams either so you know what he adds in there and I think like I said I touched on earlier they're a proud nation on their own soil they're not going to step back they're not going to sit down and go you can have it so I think there's a bit of an unknown there I think they're similar to us in terms of Lions camp trying to find their combinations I think 9-10 would be a big one for them and what gets them going but having watched the I think they would have watched the Argentina game and they would have picked that apart and gone well there's opportunities there obviously they play Fiji again I don't know what day I'm in whatever Saturday is coming next yeah a week Saturday Saturday so that'll be great to see how they go there up in Newcastle yeah and see what combinations they bring and what's their starting team what's their you know what Joe Smith starts with but for me I think like you know we haven't talked about coaches you know Joe Smith being with Ireland I went a bit Irish then at Ireland with Ireland you're doing an impression of him he always goes Irish I didn't even mean to sorry with obviously him with the Irish team and with FAS there as well and what those two know of each other and what that challenge will bring.

48:52I think it's going to be an amazing tour. Still 3-0 Lions though? Actually, I said 2-1. Okay. 2-1 and I said because... Like 13? Yeah, 13. But we'll flip for argument's sake. We'll go Australia first, Lions second, Lions third. So that's like 89. That's the only series the Lions have gone 1-0 down in and won the series. Yeah. There you go. I knew that fact. I just want you to finish it off. That's all right. You told me earlier and I thought I'd use it at the end. Borrow it. George, really appreciate your time. Great to speak to you. Good to see you. And yeah, thanks for your time on the rock.

49:21Thanks, Jenny. Ciao.

49:26Hi, I'm Danny Fortson from the Times Tech Podcast, which is currently sponsored by ServiceNow. ServiceNow describes itself as an AI control tower for business reinvention, connecting systems, data, and AI so workflows more smoothly across organizations. The platform integrates with different clouds, models, and data sources bring them together in one place. To learn more about how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast. AI is already changing business and medicine, but could it also change the way we look after our own health?

50:04In a special episode in Paid Partnership with Vitality, we look at how AI, wearables, and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it. Listen to the Times Tech Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

50:44is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability, and you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now.

51:28That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. good to speak to George North a man who's had I mean I suppose the real highs and then the tougher parts yeah it's fascinating isn't it because as he sort of said himself it's remarkable that you can be have your greatest moment in like any jersey at 21 and I was saying there I was having my 21st birthday party watching it so that he was achieving quite a lot more than me because then in 17 he has a really frustrating trip and then doesn't even make 21 because he gets injured So I think if there's lessons from the current Lions from north, it's you've got to take your chances.

52:12You're going to get finite chances, tiny little moments on this trip. So take them. And if you can score a try from your own half and then put the opposition wing on your back, then you're going to be doing all right. The Lions are about to arrive, so round us off, Will. What can Ruck listeners look forward to this week? Episode one of a special series out tomorrow, which yourself and Alex have put a lot of time into. Yeah, so, wow, I hope you're really going to love this series. It's called The Red Lions. It's a three-parter. The Red Lions title is a reference to the fact that the Lions have been playing in red jerseys only for the last 75 years, and they used to play in blue before that.

52:46And what we've done is we've linked a kind of unbroken golden thread of Lions from 1955 to 2025. Alex has spoken to six Lions, I've spoken to six others. So we've got 12 interviews, all put together through history and anecdotes and clippings from the times. We've got Stephen Jones reading some of his old match reports. Elgin reading some ones from the 70s and 50s and all that. And it's going to be a rattle through history, really, of the last 75 years. And you've done the hard work of actually editing it and putting it together and all the funky music with it. I don't know. You guys were jetting off all over the place to try and get the interviews done in time.

53:21But, yeah, it's been a labour of love, I think we'd probably call it. So, look, an absolute catalogue of legendary lines are on it. We've got Bryn Meredith from back in the 50s, Willie John McBride, Sam Warburton, Dan Bigger, Finn Russell. Matt Dawson. Matt Dawson. Martin William. Donald Lenehan. So loads of good names. John Beattie. Andy Irvin. There you go. We've basically listed them all, but loads of really good names. It's a really interesting listen. I'd imagine if you're listening to this, you, like us, love the Lions, and it would be a pretty comprehensive take from 55 all the way through to 2025.

53:53We will leave it there. So keep an eye on your feed for those special episodes. hopefully coming out this week. First one definitely on Tuesday and we're hoping days after that but we're going to see how the edits go. We'll be back with you probably on Saturday, Will. Saturday night from the Optus. One of these pods after the Western Force game. So we'll have an on the whistle, roughly on the whistle, pod for you then. Thanks for listening. This has been the Ruck, the journalist rugby podcast from the Times and the Sunday Times. See you next time. Hi, I'm Danny Fortson from the Times Tech podcast which is currently sponsored by ServiceNow.

54:28ServiceNow describes itself as an AI control tower for business reinvention, connecting systems, data, and AI so workflows more smoothly across organizations. The platform integrates with different clouds, models, and data sources, bringing them together in one place. To learn more about how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast. AI is already changing business and medicine, but could it also change the way we look after our own health? In a special episode in Paid Partnership with Vitality, we look at how AI, wearables and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it.

55:11Listen to the Times Tech Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.