Were Ireland robbed of a World Cup semi-final?

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1:19Alfie: welcome back to the ruck the journalists rugby podcast from the times and the sunday times and And today we are in Bristol, ahead of the semifinals at the Women's Rugby World Cup this weekend. Alfie here, along with Elgin. Elgin, a busy weekend of action to look back on the final four, the semifinals to look ahead to. How are you?

1:38Elgan: Yeah, I'm very well. I think we've converged upon the big four converging upon the semifinals, rather, the four teams we expected to get this far. Three quarterfinal wins that were fairly run of the mill and one very exciting match at Sandy Park, where France for a long time looked like they wouldn't quite make it through and some controversy that came out of that match as well that I'm sure we'll be talking about very soon. Absolutely.

2:01Alfie: Also coming up, we are going to be speaking to the England second row, player of the match in the quarterfinal victory over Scotland, Morwenna Tallinn. Looking forward to chatting to her, Elgin, because I think there are so many stars of this Red Roses team. I think she is a player playing exceptionally well, but actually, certainly before last weekend was going under the radar. I don't think if you're going under the radar anymore when you get a player of the match award, but someone that doesn't get as many of the headlines as many of the other players in this Red Roses team.

2:26Elgan: Certainly coming into the tournament, I think a lot of people wouldn't necessarily have had her as a starter. It just so happens that she stayed in the team while Zoe Oldcroft, the captain, was undergoing treatment for that knee injury that kept her out of two matches. It means that we've seen Morwenna play blindside flanker and then switch to lock and stay in the team ahead of Abby Ward, who is one of the bigger names, one of the established veterans in the team. So to see more when her stay in the team shows how she is regarded now as a real sort of off the ball work rate enforcer, as it were.

2:57Elgan: And her carrying was hugely to the fore last weekend for that player of the match performance. So she's really thrown herself forward now as one of the one of the main names in this England team as we approach the semifinals.

3:07Alfie: So we'll be chatting to her very, very shortly. We'll also speak about the Rugby Championship. What another unbelievable round of fixtures and results in that competition. and we are here at the moment on the outskirts of Bristol at the England Team Hotel. This is where they were based last week ahead of the quarterfinal and based this week in the build-up to the semi-final as well. Elgin, what was the standout result for you in the quarterfinals? The four teams that we probably expected to get through, but what was it that really stood out for you in terms of those results?

3:36Elgan: Three of the matches were fairly one-sided. I suppose the New Zealand-South Africa game for a time, the Springbok women really had the Black Ferns under the pump. It's one of those games where the last thing South Africa wanted was half-time to come, because it enables the team to reset, to figure out what's going on. At 10-all, that was a half-time result that no one quite saw coming. But then the Black Ferns started with three tries in seven minutes, and we got the result we were expecting thereafter. So you'd have to look at France-Ireland, where Ireland were leading 13-0 in howling wind, rain down at Exeter.

4:08Elgan: But then for France to show their mettle to come through, to win that one 18-13, Those are the type of results that, you know, we're always talking at this World Cup about how teams are at different stages of their professionalism, of their journeys towards the top of the game. This is the sort of result that you really do want when you're seeing these teams improve. So for Ireland, especially after a galling 40-0 defeat by New Zealand in their final pool game, for them to play so well in the conditions to take that lead, but then just not quite be able to hold on. But an 18-13 result, that was certainly the standout.

4:43Elgan: I've got to ask about the end of this game, though.

4:45Alfie: So the game ended with Ireland on the attack, penalty, kick to the corner, line out in the French 22, great attacking platform. And then it was knocked on at the line out by France. And I don't know whether this is the sort of thing, Elgin, that it hardly ever causes that much of an issue. But it's only when it happens in this sort of context that anyone complains about it. So maybe that is exactly what I'm doing. But I look at that game, a World Cup quarterfinal, match on the line, a spot in the final four on the line, Ireland on the attack. Yes, I know normally a knock-on would end the game.

5:19Alfie: But in that particular setting, a France hand at the line out, knocking the ball on, do we need to look at changing that for this particular kind of instance when the clock is in the red and it just kills that attacking opportunity?

5:33Elgan: It reminds me of an incident earlier in the tournament where at the end of a game, the scrum half was passing the ball back to the fly half to kick it off but accidentally threw it too high and ended up just going dead anyway my view is that it would be the the thin end of a thin end of the wedge it would be too difficult to try and add some sort of rubric about how a game can end officially there have already been steps taken in recent years to ensure that teams can't sort of illegally deliberately end a match I think back to France versus Wales in a men's Six Nations game in Cardiff well it must have been about 15 years ago maybe now 14 years maybe now where Wales had scored to take it to 24-18 I think the scoreline was so they had a chance to win the game and Frederick Michalak dribbled a restart dead into touch rather than going 10 meters and at the time you were allowed to do that I also think back I think Neil Jenkins ended one of the Lions tests in 1997 by doing a 22 dropout that went straight out as well if memory serves so we've taken steps to ensure that the game has to restart in some situations like that I think if you start trying to say oh can a game restart if there's been a knock-on by the opposition was that you know a deliberate throw into touch or just a miss pass that didn't quite go where it was meant to be I think that is possibly the the thin end of the wedge so I'm sure for an Ireland fan they'd have thought oh we've had our our chance for a driving mall here obstructed not illegally but because of a French action but I think I had no qualms with the way that that match ended I get

7:04Alfie: it because it's you're right it's such a can of worms potentially and that I have no problem that obviously if Ireland had knocked it on I'm not saying we should play the scrum and France would have to kick it out that would be the end of the game but then I also look at it and wonder because it's what do we need to look at line outs in a different way when a player goes up one-handed almost in the way we would if someone knocked the ball on one-handed in normal play or maybe it's just as I say a complete can of worms and and you're just you're you would be making the situation more tricky but watching it for me there was something that actually didn't quite feel right

7:37Elgan: about that and the game ending in that way I suppose you just say you know if Ireland called correctly picked the right line out move the France player wouldn't have got near it and they'd have been okay but you know such as the margins in a in a competitive area like the line out in a rugby

7:51Alfie: match yeah okay you mentioned South Africa's performance against New Zealand particularly in that first half I think that is worth us highlighting it feels to me that South Africa are one of the teams in this tournament that it could be a real springboard for in terms of their women's side getting to the knockout stages playing so well particularly in that first half and the New Zealand quality told in the end but what do you think you know we've spoken about Samoa haven't we when they faced England the other week and how they want more opportunities and yes there's a real disparity at the moment between plenty of the teams in the women's game but I think what this World Cup is doing which is a good thing is highlighting that and for me what we've seen from South Africa and their women's side is this could really be an opportunity for them to kick on and try and close that gap.

8:34Elgan: When you consider that the Springbok women have only played the Black Ferns twice now in official tests that really shows how different that rivalry is in the women's game to the men's game they had two matches against the Black Ferns 15 a second string side as warm-up to this competition but you know they went toe-to-toe with that New Zealand team with a real clash of styles they essentially have 10 forwards in their starting lineup South Africa they they basically use their centers as auxiliary back rowers and then they had seven forwards on the bench as well so they were 17 out of the 23 essentially acting as forwards whereas when we think of the black ferns we think of their thrilling back play so it was a very interesting clash of styles and in that first half South Africa really did put them under some trouble like we say 10 all at half time it very much does feel like the springboard women have been the main team on a springboard at this World Cup you feel like for a nation that loves its rugby so much that is the champion of the past two men's World Cups it was quite a galling oversight that their women's team you know didn't exist between 2014 and 2018 essentially it didn't take part at the 2017 World Cup but it does feel like this might be that moment where the shoots of interest will now you know go into increased investment whether that's a full-time professional league that's been mooted with several teams there's already one team the Bulls Daisies that are fully professional you've got players coming over to PWR as well in recent years it does feel like South Africa could be the nation that makes that leap to join the big four as it stands and you know start rivaling

10:03Alfie: those teams yeah well like you just look at it and you know that South Africans are patriotic they absolutely love their rugby give them a team to get behind and I think they will and I think even on social media during the Women's World Cup I've started to see it from people that I would only normally see posts about the spring box but have started posting about what the women's team been doing in the world cup so i definitely think it's a massive massive platform for them we'll come on to england that it was i suppose the england perspective from their win against scotland let's start on the scots though great start to the game by the way kicking the penalty going three nil up and then after that england were brilliant in how they control the game in tricky conditions has this world cup though been a total a real exhibition of what could scotland be if they get the proper backing and proper funding from the sru which has been kind of the backdrop to their whole tournament and once again off the back of that quarterfinal is a massive talking

10:54Elgan: point yeah after the match you know we had rachel malcolm talking afterwards asked about the support for scottish women's rugby and whether or not players would be lost because of the contractual wrangling that has colored the last few months we're essentially looking at a situation where about half of the squad came into this world cup thinking they wouldn't have professional contracts afterwards we've had jade conkle who's one of the big names retiring talk about how the sru have to support them players talking about how they've been going through you know job interviews while preparing for a world cup it's it's the sort of thing that we've heard in in women's world cups in years gone by but as we slowly become inured to that as teams like the Red Roses which are fully professional are just focused solely on rugby and have been for the past six years certainly what we've seen from Scotland with that 38-8 demolition of Wales for example is that they do have some really great talent there it's just that at the moment they haven't quite sorted out that off-field position and we don't know exactly how that will look there's going to be a new head coach because Brian Eason is leaving now that the tournament is over but we saw snippets of that game against England where they showed what they can do.

12:04Elgan: It's just that they were up against the, as it is for now anyway, omnipotent Red Roses, 31 wins in a row. When it's howling and raining, you think, OK, let's take them on in the tights. The trouble is that the tight is one of England's strongest areas. Just about all of their areas are very strong.

12:21Alfie: Yeah, we'll get on to that in a minute. The Scotland set piece, unfortunately, from their perspective, massively struggled at Ashtongate last weekend. Where are we with the SRU then? because we still don't know when we're getting any further information regarding the contracts. Is that right? They recently, a couple of weeks ago, announced that Gregor Townsend had extended his contract. They announced Franco Smith was staying with Glasgow and a restructuring of the pathway system for the men's game in Scotland. But the women were kind of left out of that. And they said, oh, well, you know, we'll deal with this down the line.

12:51Alfie: Do we know when that is going to happen?

12:53Elgan: There's just huge amounts of uncertainty in that regard. One thing we do know is that there are still grand plans off field for the growth of the game because when England and Scotland next meet in the women's Six Nations, it will be at Murrayfield for the first time. And already, and we are, what, seven months out from it, it is already set to be the best attended Scotland home game because I think the current record at the smaller stadium is a sellout of just under 8 ,000, whereas they've already passed the five-figure 10 ,000 seat mark. So we know that there's that growth going on off the field in terms of feeling like they can take a standalone fixture against the Red Roses to Murrayfield.

13:33Elgan: It's just that over the course of the next seven months, we don't know exactly who will be taking to field for them and in what status they will have as they do so.

13:42Alfie: Just quickly before we get on to England, Canada 46-5 winners over Australia. How impressive did you find their performance? Particularly, I suppose, off the back of the week before where we were all saying New Zealand have put down their first real marker of this World Cup. Canada have then backed it up and those two teams will face this weekend.

14:00Elgan: Yeah, it was a really impressive performance. I think what in particular really impressed itself upon me was that first half for Canada. We saw what Australia could do to England. They really made England struggle with their smart tactics in the first half, whereas Canada had no such problem. The speed of their rucks, their forward pick-and-go game, which reminded me a bit of the success that France had at Twickenham against England in that Six Nations decider earlier this year. That's what that reminded me of. And again, everyone, when it's Canada, is talking about Sophie de Goody, who was the player of the match again.

14:33Elgan: The goal-kicking lock, four conversions and one try, just at the forefront of all that heavy carrying up front. So it was just another very good, exciting, diligent performance by Canada. and that match against the Black Ferns on Friday night between number two and three in the world, the two teams that we've always thought would be the largest obstacles to a possible Red Rose procession to the title, should be a fascinating fixture.

14:57Alfie: Absolutely. England then, we'll have a chat with Morwen Ataling in just a moment. As I said earlier, I was really impressed with the way in which they just totally controlled that game. After the early Scotland penalty, it was all England. Their kicking game was better. They controlled territory and possession. Their set piece absolutely dominated the Scots.

15:18Elgan: The England machine is capable of bulldozing a team in many different ways. If you're being hypercritical, you could say that they perhaps don't have as much flair as someone like the Black Ferns do. I mean, they don't have as much flair as Fiji do, for example.

15:35Alfie: But interestingly on that, I remember I was having exactly the same conversation at the last World Cup and all the talk going into that final. Is England over-reliant on their driving mall?

15:43Elgan: I think three years ago, the feeling was that they were so keen of a driving mall that they basically eschewed all other methods of beating a team. Whereas now, I think they do have multiple ways of playing. It's just that their driving mall, their scrum, is perhaps even bigger a weapon. It's just it's now not so much their main weapon. I mean, a fixture like last weekend's at Bristol, the weather just required that to be the way to win a match. And we've heard John Mitchell talk afterwards about, you know, we'll dominate teams however we can. Any foothold we can get in a game, the scrum against USA we saw, the scrum against most teams, frankly, they will use that to their advantage because the history books won't remember how England won a World Cup.

16:31Elgan: If they do, it will only remember that they have done so. So they are happy to win a match however they can. Like I say, the hypercritical question mark, if it comes down to an exciting seat of your pants chuck about against the Black Ferns, you do feel that New Zealand might actually have more in the tank in that regard, which is another reason perhaps why they prefer to keep it tight as well.

16:50Alfie: Yeah, interesting. All right, well, we'll look ahead to the semifinals in more detail in just a moment. The other side of us chatting to the England second row, Mawena Tallin.

17:05Alfie: Well, Marwenna, welcome on to The Ruck. How are you? Thanks for your time. Yeah, I'm good, thank you. Good, good. I wanted to ask you, what do you get for a Player of the Match award? Do you actually get anything physically? I had it in my hands for about five seconds. And then our kit man, Alan, took it. Because it gets put into like a box. Right. Like a Pelly case. Okay, yeah. And yeah, so I didn't see it. but it's like a what was it it's like glass uh-huh it's quite heavy so it's like a little trophy yeah do you get that again at the end yes you're not allowed it now well i'm allowed it if i wanted it but it's just a big thing to carry around they're looking after it for now yeah

17:48Elgan: i've always wondered when it gets announced over the tannoy you're playing for your country big game obviously you're focused on what's going on but then when it gets announced that you're player of match with four minutes left what does that make you feel like as a as the player to be hearing that over the town or do you not care that much um i think do you notice it well so i was off the pitch at the point so i'd come off so i think that's different to when you're on the pitch i think if i'd got it on the pitch i would have been oblivious to it but kind of off the pitch it's a nice moment because you're obviously surrounded by your bench players um so yeah so seeing kind of your name come up and then don't have the camera on you it's a bit like well

18:29Alfie: there's certain people that were like alona mar up in the stands as soon as the camera's on her is like downing two drinks or some people get off me immediately please yeah yeah it's probably more

18:39Elgan: like me and obviously with rugby being a team game how much does it mean to you to get an accolade like that because obviously you want your team to win that's the main focus but for you to get that player of the match award in terms of sort of external validation maybe how people reflect on how you perform is that is that nice to have or is it not that important because the main aim is winning a quarterfinal match and getting to a semi-final i think it's obviously nice to have like that external validation does come into it some part but i think overall kind of we just want to win as a team and i like take that very literal like i'm literally just putting my body out for the team and not necessarily anyone else at that moment but yet obviously to get the player

19:18Alfie: the match award is a nice feeling to have how do you judge your own performance because i personally I don't know what your assessment when you've kind of reflected on performances during this tournament I feel like you've done a lot of the stuff that goes unseen really really well so you might not have a highlights package that some other players have but you've still done really crucial work are those kind of the foundations that for you are so important in your game yeah no definitely I think I always pride myself on kind of that unseen work and like my work rate around the pitch kind of that hitting the rocks and stuff like that so when I'm kind of deciding whether I've played well or not it's kind of more in those involvements and how effective I've been in those rather than oh I made like a massive line break that's not something that I do so I think it's more in those smaller involvements but overall help the team as a whole.

20:09Alfie: Is that something that has developed for you over time of kind of a bigger appreciation of those moments that aren't the glitzy glamorous stuff but how important they are I know having spoken to other players previously it's almost like an understanding if you don't have to be getting blockbuster highlights all the time to be having a good game yeah I think definitely I think when I was younger when I started playing I was always like oh I didn't have a good game if I kind of didn't get a line break didn't make a massive tackle or something like that but I think now within my role as a team in the team I know that that is my role um and so yeah I do have an appreciation now of I've got to do this otherwise probably like the team wouldn't do as well as it is doing.

20:53Elgan: You said when you were younger I've seen you've said before that you started out playing as a fly half in those those early days and you're particularly fond of kicking but obviously um have you ever been akin to Sophie de Goody and any goal kicking or is that not a skill set you've had really uh no so i when i was younger i when i was playing at malton and west park leeds i did do goal kicking i didn't enjoy it but then i don't know i just fell out of it like there was better goal kickers in the backs um so they kind of took over but yeah like it's always been like i've always loved to just kick a ball around and yeah it's definitely something that i'd wouldn't be like afraid of bringing in but it's also like I know my role is in the team at the moment and kind of that's to carry hard so I'm gonna do that if you carry through and make a line break everyone will be hoping that you go for the chip over the top of the fullback that's what we're waiting for that might come that might come you mentioned the clubs that you played for growing up I know that sort of representing the north is uh quite quite an important thing for you that you've spoken about before just can you just talk again about about what it is like to represent you know Yorkshire You've spoken before about how English rugby does tend to be focused down south, but then with the Red Roses playing in York, playing in Sunderland, how important is that to the growth of the women's game around England?

22:11Yeah, massive. Obviously, so glad that we were able to bring this tournament to the north. We got a record crowd up in Sunderland, and so it shows the support is there. And yeah, it's just massive. Obviously, growing up, I kind of had to move around clubs from Moulton to West Park because of the numbers um but i think hopefully kind of this tournament and us kind of taking our games to like all across the country it's just going to help kind of grow that um pathway

22:42Alfie: in the north as well i was going to say sorry i was going to say has that changed have you noticed a change even from when you were coming through to now yeah i think definitely i remember seeing on instagram the other day uh malton had put a post saying they had like loads of girls come down to their training sessions which like was never never a thing when I was there like we had decent numbers but they weren't it was like 15 so at a push um but yeah now they're getting like 60 odd and it's like whoa like these girls actually have somewhere to go play yeah yeah and even at the top

23:15Elgan: flight I know you moved to to sail um you know a club that in recent seasons have been down towards the bottom end of PWR but what was it behind that move was it about what that represented was it about you know trying to be a leader in a team that doesn't traditionally feature towards the top of PWR? Yeah I think when I made that decision to move like I needed to change from Loughborough and kind of obviously sales up north and I am proud of that and I want to like go and help them obviously they've been down in the bottom and like but there's been massive growth and the support that we've got there from Michelle and Simon is amazing and they want to put all their efforts into us um and yeah I think it's showing like we have developed so yeah it's just exciting and yeah it wasn't necessarily about kind of the leadership or anything I kind of felt drawn to that club just in terms of their culture in terms of what they wanted to go after um I think that's a really important thing to me is that I feel comfortable to play my like style of rugby up there and I think they let me do that so does it feel like being a leader of a team that is perhaps towards the bottom end though does improve you as a player because it means that when you come to this group of the best players in England you are used to sort of being a leader and you may not be you know the captain of England but you've got that experience of being a big profile at a club yeah no I think it does I think obviously it helps in every aspect I think it's definitely helped me be more like confident as a person as well which then obviously translates into my rugby and yeah like I've just I've kind of grown to love it there and like the girls up there also helped me be that leader.

24:59Elgan: You're still I think you're the second youngest player in the squad still but this is your your second World Cup which kind of shows how how early it all came to you playing for Loughborough at 17 England at 18. What has this second World Cup been like compared to that first one obviously time zones geography have made it very different just the the crowds we've seen out here but but what did you when you reflect on that first world cup three years ago what's this one like been like in comparison to that um yeah like you said like it's different last world cup we were over in new zealand um away from like family friends for six seven weeks so obviously it's nice being here being in england being kind of closer to our families and being able to see them a lot more i think obviously last world cup i was kind of still on the edge of the squad.

25:43And I think that made it kind of a bit more difficult, I think, in that World Cup. But yeah, these past three years, I've obviously grown as a player and come into this World Cup more confident. And I think I've really kind of just gone after putting my best foot forward every time I step out on the pitch. And yeah, I'm enjoying this one a lot more.

26:05Alfie: Everything we've heard in the press conferences today was that you guys try and keep things, as you have done for all the other games in this World Cup. But how exciting is it to be in the final four, to be in a semi-final, to have that game at Twickenham one match away? Yeah, it's very exciting. Obviously, it's a dream country to get to a semi-final again. We're always just one game at a time. We've got to earn the right to get to the final. We've still got to play France, who are a very good side. So yeah, we need to put preparation in this week for this weekend and then we go from there.

26:40Elgan: A feature of some of the recent games against France has been, and Lou Meadows was talking about it earlier today, has been the way that everything goes out the window at half-time and England maybe take a lead and then France just somehow come back in the second half. When you've been reflecting on that as a squad, what has that been down to? Has it been something that the Red Roses think you yourselves can improve upon or has it just been something that has captivated France in that second half? Yeah, I think it's definitely kind of down to us. I think our mindset we just need to keep going for the full 80 we always say we don't want to let the pressure off teams and I think we've just got to continue doing that and yeah just keep the pressure on them and hope that we crack them And is that why the Mondemar-San game was such a statement performance for you guys because you kept the foot on the throat for the entire game to win 46 Yeah no definitely I think we went into that game kind of having that mindset and ever since I think we have had that mindset.

27:41So yeah, it's just continuing that and taking that into this weekend as well.

27:45Alfie: Well, awesome. We really appreciate your time. Good luck this weekend and hopefully we'll be speaking to you again next week in the build-up to the final, but go well in the semi-final this weekend. Amazing. Thank you very much.

27:59At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible. From blueprint to breakthrough, we take you further with tech so you can outthink, outpace, and outperform. PWC, so you can. PWC refers to the PWC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity. Hi, I'm Nick, co-host of The Best One Yet. You optimize your workouts, your portfolios, and that rando startup idea that hit you in the middle or the shower. But if you're not hydrated, you're already playing catch up.

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30:01Alfie: for biting and then Mane Falu with a two-week ban which she is actually appealing which is happening today so by the time this podcast comes out potentially there might have been some updates in regards to whether she's available to face England or not. The bite though Elgin I mean a huge story or like awful awful thing to see. Is it unfair here to criticize the officials for not picking it up live?

30:27Elgan: I spent my Monday delving deep into the history of biting in rugby, as anyone should do on a Monday. And the sense I got is that often biting doesn't get discovered until afterwards. It tends to be something that comes out in the wash. And I wonder if part of that is because in the heat of the moment, it's so difficult to figure out whether something was intentional, exactly what happened, because they might not have the angles in the time, which is what they said.

30:55Alfie: It's what the TMO said, wasn't it? They couldn't conclusively, even though it looked probably quite obvious, they didn't, I think in that moment, conclusively want to say that's what happened in case they got it wrong.

31:04Elgan: Of course, an incident like this will always come off the back of the player who thinks they've been bitten saying, I think I've been bitten. Could you have a look at that, please? The TMO, as the referee Amy Barrett Theron said, was sweeping in the background but didn't come back with anything. I think the two things that will annoy well one thing that will annoy Ireland fans certainly and I think one thing that might annoy neutral observers will be that for Ireland they were 30 nil up at the time if it had been sanctioned there and then it probably would have been a permanent red card not a 20 minute red card because it would have been a dangerous act of foul play so they would have been 30 nil up and playing against 14 women for the next 37 minutes which possibly leads to a different result.

31:47Elgan: I think for the neutral observer, the annoyance probably comes from the fact that we are now so accustomed to seeing TMOs spend minutes pouring over minuscule knock-ons that you don't see in real time, that they are able to go back and rule on. Sometimes to rule out tries even after the conversion has been taken, which is a great source of annoyance to a lot of rugby fans. I think those people will be irked that they weren't able to go back and see something that on paper, not on paper rather, on film, even there and then sort of looked like we knew what had happened. But they weren't able to go back and rule on that when you take Cobus Reinach, for an example, in the rugby championship at the weekend.

32:32Elgan: Small knock on that, yes, technically was an actual knock on. But at the time, no one was thinking about it. No one saw it. And then it gets ruled on a few minutes later. So I think that would have annoyed a lot of observers that we have to go through so many of these slow TMO interventions. And yet in this example, there wasn't one at all.

32:49Alfie: I guess what they might say is they could conclusively see that Cobus Reiner could knock the ball on, whereas they weren't. Well, I think they should have been conclusive that there had been a bite because I think it's pretty obvious. But they might have said that they weren't 100 % sure. I do think Ireland would feel right to be aggrieved, though, by that, because I absolutely agree. I think it would massively change the remainder of that game. I think there's a great chance that Ireland are sat here preparing for a semi-final if that had been picked up and actually dealt with live at the time.

33:15Alfie: Looking at the games, as expected, New Zealand, Canada, England, France, the four teams in the semi-final, the same old teams in the semi-final. Is that a problem?

33:25Elgan: It's not a problem in the sense that these are the four best teams in the world. And if you feel like the first four rounds of this World Cup has been more of a festival of all comers, an opportunity for the women's game to spread itself around England and to have these marvellous crowds at slightly smaller grounds, but then also the likes of Brighton last weekend. now the tournament is finally an elite competition in terms of where teams are right now and these are the four matchups slightly different way around to three years ago that everyone expected to see and that should be from a sporting competition elite point of view the weekend when the tournament truly comes alive which certainly was the case in New Zealand three years ago where it was a very similar vibe where you had to wait until two absolutely blockbuster the semi-finals that could have gone either way on the occasion.

34:16Elgan: We've got the same again now before that final at Twickenham.

34:19Alfie: England have had France's number in recent meetings. How much tougher do you think it gets for England from here on out?

34:26Elgan: I still think everyone is thinking that for England this should be a bit of a home run victory. Like you say, France are their great European nemeses. They're always the ones that are contesting that grand slam decider in a big Stadium but they also haven't beaten England since 2018 they've come very close in those Grand Slam deciders at Twickenham primarily through some late scoring and some late flourishes that have come just too late so we've had 38-33 in 2023 and then earlier this year we had that thrilling 43-42 where I think England learnt a lot of lessons about not being relentless in that match which was their problem they I think they were leading 31-7 and they let France back into that game so I think that friendly in Mont de Mars last month was a real moment for them because they wiped the floor with them 40 points to six in a way that they haven't done in previous years even though they do always tend to beat them so while for France it was perhaps the slap in the face they needed and that was the term that some of them used after the game for England it was a moment where they could go right we've discovered that relentlessness that we lacked a few months ago and for them it was a huge statement result so you know France in World Cup semi-finals men's and women's game a lot of history there but I think everyone is expecting that one to be a fairly comfortable England win I think.

35:48Alfie: And as for the other semi-final which could be awesome on Friday New Zealand Canada now we said earlier we're at the England team hotel there's no way they will be answering this question today because they're just focusing on one game at a time and all the usual stuff that we hear do you think they would rather see the Black Ferns or Canada win that other semi-final? Because you can make a good argument for both.

36:10Elgan: I think if you ask them deep down to take in the history, and to be fair, often we talk to rugby players about things and we talk about things that happened in 1998 and 2003, and often they don't have a clue. We're the ones that focus on such things rather than them. But I think just with all the history of that Black Ferns rivalry, the way that they are always able to beat England at a World Cup, I do feel like just from a winning the match point of view, they would probably rather face Canada. But I think, you know, in Canada were mightily impressive last weekend and their last two matches against the Black Ferns.

36:45Elgan: They've won in New Zealand and drawn against them. And that was without Sophie Degudi when she was dealing with her long term injury. So it should be an absolutely belting clash. If it weren't a World Cup match, I think Canada would be favourites. The fact it's a World Cup semi-final means that I'm tilting slightly towards New Zealand. But again, it could go either way and it should be a fantastic game whichever way it falls.

37:08Alfie: I mean, absolutely no disrespect to Canada here because I think they've been brilliant at this World Cup. But I think from a purely narrative story point of view, Black Ferns England in the final at Twickenham would just be awesome. in terms of all the history, New Zealand's history in this competition. The fact they won the last final of one, you know, beaten England in a couple of finals. It's always the hurdle that England haven't been able to jump over. I think that would be a more fitting way for this Red Roses team to answer a lot of those critics. And not just from a kind of narrative, and it's a great story point of view, but it also leaves absolutely no questions to be left aimed at this team.

37:48Alfie: Whereas if Canada were to win and England were to win in England were to go on and win it by beating Canada I think there would still be people that would say well yeah once again though they didn't come up against the Black Fern so that's why I

37:58Elgan: think I would love to see that it'd be a New Zealand England final the other thing for Canada is of course even though they are number two in the world that there's sort of viewed as plucky underdogs as well because they've had to fundraise a million dollars towards the support of their mission win the Rugby World Cup so it's yeah it's this strange situation where they are the second best team in the world but they are also the plucky underdog but yes as you say the hypercritical will have a caveat around this world cup a very small caveat that the england players won't care about i'm sure but people will say in four years time well england are possibly defending their world cup title but they've still never beaten new zealand so that's why as you say the england new zealand final would be from that point of view the final big boss for this red roses team to beat

38:45Alfie: Yeah, 100%. Let's see what happens in the semifinals on Friday and Saturday coming up this weekend. Next up, we will finish the pod by looking back on the rugby championship over the weekend. Well, it has been mentioned previously and we've spoken about it on previous pods, Elgin, but I think we are probably getting the best edition of the rugby championship that we've ever seen, aren't we? Another two ridiculous games. I mean, we have to start with New Zealand 10, South Africa 43 in Wellington. All of the question marks that are around the spring box. They hadn't been playing well. Was it an ageing team?

39:20Alfie: Were they having to regenerate and renew ahead of the next World Cup? Cue the most historic, biggest win over New Zealand.

39:29Elgan: Even at half time, when the Allbacks were leading 10-7, I don't think anyone truly could have said they saw that coming. to demolish them 36-0 in that second half. That final quarter, it just felt like wave after wave of Springbok attack that the Ulbux just had no answer to. As you say, we've been talking every week about how, oh, this rugby championship's looking quite tasty, and it just keeps on getting tastier every weekend. I'm looking at the table now. You've got Australia at the top. Who'd have thought that after that first Lions test? You've got Argentina last, but only two points behind them.

40:02Elgan: the points difference tallies are between plus 18 and minus 15 which shows sort of how close it's been so you're looking at that last two rounds now where New Zealand or South Africa who are bunched in the middle second and third they could equally win the rugby championship as they so often do and yet Argentina and Australia are also still in the running to do it as well yeah and

40:23Alfie: it's amazing because after the Australia Argentina game I was looking at the game in Wellington and thinking well if New Zealand go back to back against the Springboks here they're going to be in the box seat to win the Rugby Championship. The Springboks would have been bottom of the table at that point as well because Argentina had beaten the Wallabies whereas one result at the moment just feels like it changes the whole complexion. As I said already we had there were question marks over the Springboks. I think rightly and fair play to them they have answered many of those questions but I think it was fair to ask those questions based upon what we'd seen in the opening three rounds but everything is just changing every result every single game so Australia are top of the pile by the way who would have thought that after four games that the Wallabies are top of the pile the Lions results against them are looking better and better and better South Africa in second would you have the spring box do you think from this point out with two games against Argentina the favorites to retain their rugby championship title I do think that South Africa

41:18Elgan: well I think South Africa New Zealand should be looking at those last two rounds thinking that this is still our rugby championship to win just off the basis that Australia are going to Eden Park so there'll be another tilt at the 31 years unbeaten record for a team other than the All

41:33Alfie: Blacks and the Bledderslow which they haven't won in a couple of decades yeah and then you've got

41:37Elgan: in that second round them moving to Perth so Australia being the home team so you know the Wallabies will be bang up for that but again you just don't know if they'll quite have enough to win but then the the spring box they've got Argentina at home for which you know they should be overwhelming favorites for but as we've said before in recent weeks Argentina are now the mercurial darlings of world rugby at the moment and then that last match which will be at Twickenham which will be an interesting one because well neither side has home advantage so you're not quite sure what will happen so while it is still all to play for I do feel that nature will take its usual course again and that New Zealand and South Africa will be vying for top spot at the end of it but if we've got two more weeks like the the past four we've had then anything goes

42:20Alfie: one thing that's really struck me though throughout this and with how close it's been how it's swung momentum one way to the other between game weeks is are we at a point where in the men's game international rugby has never been so even at the very top level it's always difficult to say um I think at the end of November we'll have a better idea of that after they played Ireland and France and England. But what do you think? Do you think it feels very, very even at the moment?

42:48Elgan: I think in between World Cups, we've been at that stage for quite a few years now where teams are able just to turn on on any given day that the margins are so small. You think of something like the New Zealand-South Africa game, everyone will focus on that scoreline. It was just one of those games where the scoreline was quite even for most of the match. And then suddenly, as can happen in a rugby game, you do just sweep away at the end. and you think of something like when France beat England 50-10 at Twickenham or going back even longer when Wales beat England in that famous 2013 game. Those sort of games where the scoreline doesn't feel as bad and then suddenly at the end it just completely goes one way.

43:25Alfie: Rugby World Cup Final 2019 I always think is one of those games. I've actually re-watched it since and England actually played pretty well in that game until the end when they got blown away. They couldn't deal with it and the final scoreline is pretty one-sided. it's funny with the All Blacks though because I totally agree that the final scoreline is brutal and looking at some of the New Zealand media as you would expect the fallout to a record loss let alone the fact that it's come against your biggest rivals at home is always going to be pretty brutal I feel like it does kind of mask not mask it skews perceptions of the All Blacks though because I think this All Blacks team are still a really good team I think they have shown that countless times over the last year or so they just aren't as consistent as they have been previously and they are in a stage of development which means they can fluctuate between results and performances in a way that we're perhaps not accustomed to with all blacks teams but they are still a good side but I think after a result like this the fallout is kind of like particularly in

44:22Elgan: New Zealand where on earth are the all blacks at the moment well the theory I have I don't think it's hugely outlandish is that how competitive international rugby seems is almost entirely predicated on how good the All Blacks are at any one moment in time because that team of the 2000s 2010s rather who swept a successive World Cup titles banished that hoodoo who were nigh unbeatable so often that were just operating on a different plane to everyone else teams that you historically very rarely beat them just carried on very rarely beating them what was different was that Australia were going through a bad bad phase France were going through a bad phase south africa also went through a bad phase during that time where they were losing 57 nil to the all blacks you had that 2015 world cup quarterfinal where france were absolutely swept away 62 13 in that match in cardiff those were the teams that historically could bloody all black noses and they all went to a similar phase where none of them could for a time but then suddenly then you had ireland winning that game in chicago and now ireland actually You have the wood over New Zealand, rather.

45:30Elgan: Then you've got France beating them in their last three matches as well. So actually, that's why my theory, like I say, I don't think it's the hottest take in the world. No, I like it. The fact that New Zealand are now eminently beatable by lots of other teams is why it seems so different. Because South Africa beating them every now and again always used to happen. But now you've got France beating them regularly. You've got Australia possibly beating them. And Ireland now, you know, something of a bogey team for New Zealand as well. And that's where we are right now.

46:00Alfie: Although the All Blacks might point out that they have beaten Ireland the last two times that they've played them as well, haven't they? The thing for me with the All Blacks as well is they're still a very, very good team, I think. But you look at the players they lost off the back of the last World Cup, which isn't, I mean, England have had to kind of regenerate and lost some players with lots of caps as well. But, you know, Brodie Vitalik, Sam Whitelock, Aaron Smith, Richie Mwanga hasn't been available because he's been playing in Japan. I just think they're a team that are having to develop in certain positions.

46:28Alfie: They have more holes than previously, but they could easily come up here, this part of the world in November and win most of, if not all of their games. But yeah, that sort of result is pretty galling. And then Argentina, we should probably give a word to them because they held on to beat Australia. Another nail-biting finish, almost another incredible Wallabies comeback. but Argentina, the side that you must hate playing Argentina, I think. Because you genuinely, we said it last week, you have no idea what you're going to get from them, but they clearly are at their best, very, very capable of beating the top sides in the world.

46:59Elgan: Well, it's very strange that they seem to perform better against a first-choice New Zealand team in New Zealand than they do against an England third team in Argentina. That's what I mean. Which seems to be that they are seemingly just completely incapable of beating England during a Lions tour at home. and yet now they beat New Zealand away at home and on a neutral ground. I suppose that's what people had in mind when they turned the Tri-Nations into the rugby championship to give Argentina that greater number of matches against the Springboks, the All Blacks. And after a few years where they weren't winning that often in recent seasons, they've been starting to tick off those landmarks and hopefully that continues going because I think most rugby observers around the world have a bit of a soft spot for Argentina.

47:44Alfie: Yeah, absolutely. So there's another rest weekend coming this weekend and then it's back for the final two rounds of the Rugby Championship. Elgin, we're in Bristol at the moment. How much more time this week are you spending

47:55Elgan: in this part of the world? I'll be back here again on Thursday when England announced their team. I'll be down here again, but for a very different reason. I'm on a emceeing duty at a wedding this weekend for one of my wife's bridesmaids. So I've got a bit of time away from rugby this weekend at some stage, but then we'll be back on it for that final week. Whoever's playing, we don't yet know, but we'll be looking forward to that potential 82 ,000 sellout at Twickenham.

48:20Alfie: Yeah, man of many talents over here. Rugby one week, emceeing a wedding the next. So semi-final weekend, we will look back on all of that next week. Who is going to be in the final? Is it going to be a Black Ferns Red Roses showdown, as many people have predicted for a long time? or could there be a twist in that narrative? We will talk about it all on The Ruck. This has been The Ruck from The Times and The Sunday Times. Make sure you follow or subscribe from wherever you get your pods from. At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible.

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