Who will qualify for the play-offs!?

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1:17Alfie: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Welcome along on a Monday morning. I'm Alfie Reynolds and alongside me to look back on a busy weekend of action in the Gallagher Prem is Will Kelleher. Hi, Will. Hello. How's it going? I'm very well, thank you. Very well. Elgin Olderman. How are you, Elgin? I'm very well, thank you. Elgin, we saw each other Friday night.

1:37Elgan: We did indeed at Ashton Gate.

1:39Alfie: Yeah, Bristol against Bath, which at the time felt like a really significant result. And then everything that has happened subsequently over the weekend means it wasn't quite as significant. But Will, you were at a very important one on Sunday, Leicester, Exeter. It was significant enough to knock Bristol out of the running, which is what you're referring to, that Bristol won, that like turned around from that dreadful game against Northampton and now watched Exeter knock them out on Sunday. So they thought, oh, well, back to normal. But the Exeter-Leicester game, I found it sort of fascinating.

2:11It felt quite old school, quite tense, tight, scruffy. It was like a game where people were trying to earn the right to go wide. Very old school. Kicking penalties. There were loads of pens. I haven't seen a game like that for a while. A drop goal attempt. A drop goal attempt that went very wide, but ultimately didn't really change the scenario for either team. We'll get onto all the perms, but basically both teams still just need to win next weekend and did before it anyway.

2:37Alfie: Yeah, that's true. I suppose it would have... Yeah, I get what you mean. It kind of would have put Leicester in the box seat, wouldn't it? Or at least psychologically, they would have been above Bath. But on points, they wouldn't have been because they just would have had to win anyway, even though Bath had lost. But yeah, I enjoyed the weekend. It felt like it sort of tapered to tension. Is that the right way of phrasing it? Totally. Well, after the season that we've had, and we've spoken, I think, last week or the week before about the blowouts and some of the scorelines, that actually, one of the things I felt this weekend was it felt like knockout rugby without it being knockout rugby.

3:09Alfie: Bristol Bath on Friday night. Bristol had to win to maintain their hopes of top four. You had Leicester, Exeter really needed to win that to still be in the box seat and keep hold of fourth. Saris obviously need to win as well so it felt like a weekend of where it mattered where there was a bit of tension I think that was a great thing yeah absolutely and I guess if you were designing the fixtures you'd say well it's likely with a 10 team league that lots of games are going to matter by the end but it has fallen absolutely perfectly hasn't it luckily really that we're getting bath tigers second v third the winner hosts the loser likely although not necessarily because then you've got exodus salary's a straight shootout for fourth on the final day like how good is that and should we do some other perms while we're here yeah well to run through it's pretty straightforward isn't it really but so northampton they're top they've secured a home semi-final which by the way is going to be the friday game that prem rugby have confirmed that so whoever comes fourth we'll play on the Friday night against Northampton Bristol are now out of it even though they beat Bath in quite a compelling game we'll get into that maybe in a bit more detail on Friday night and then everything else in terms of the top four is up for grabs right and we've got Bath against Leicester shootout for a home semi-final may well end up playing each other then the following week in said semi-final and then extra Saracens for a shot for who also gets in but actually all those teams could move around between second third fourth with exeter it's a

4:41Elgan: shootout for fourth but actually there's a decent chance that if they win they end up as third um which could mean that northampton end up hosting maybe bath or leicester possibly in a in a semi yeah and that would be mad wouldn't it that there is a genuine chance that exeter win with five points go to 65 leicester beat bath go to second and bath drop to fourth and then have to go to Saints and then there's another scenario which I'm interested in which the answer to this is on a coaching and playing perspective is absolutely not but from a fan's perspective or from our perspective would Leicester prefer to lose to Bath come fourth and then play Northampton away in the semi-final I think discuss having done to them what they did to them a couple of weeks ago

5:28Alfie: yeah I think they probably would but as you say it you can't go into it going yeah right lads try

5:32Elgan: and lose and not winning from third it's like the thing about how if you win the uh par three competition at augusta you'll never win the masters and people panic when they get to the seventh yeah really one thing oh just hit it into the water here yeah or let my let my child do the putt so that i'm so that i'm out of it that type of thing but yeah it's because that match-up just feels a nicer one for tigers like they obviously love that derby they would delight in tearing into the Saints at the Gardens, they battered them a couple of weeks ago, didn't they, at Welford Road? And the likes of Chessam and that lot sort of did it on like vim and vigour of that derby.

6:12Whereas you think going to the rec's going to be harder, albeit they will have just done it the week before.

6:18Alfie: But do you think that's that part of it? It could well kind of just be a double header here. Two weeks in a row. Psychologically, does that play in? Is that a factor? Yeah. Yeah, and it's funny because there was a little period where me and Dan Schofield from The Telegraph used to joke that we often would get the game that was the final round of the Prem season that would then repeat itself in the semi-final the next week. And they'd always go the same way twice. So I remember Exeter beating Northampton heavily in one game, getting them again the next week and then just basically repeating the result almost exactly.

6:53It was like 40-something, 15 twice. and it's kind of like we're just waiting around there for them to get to the final. So we try and build it up into all this could be a fact

7:02Alfie: because they play each other twice and then actually the exact same thing happens. I guess the history of the playoff shows that, well, we keep telling everyone, you finish third, you don't win the league. But finishing fourth, you almost always get beaten fairly easily by the team in first. Apart from when Quinns beat Bristol in Bristol and then won the league from fourth and Sarri did it a few years before that. They're the only two sides that have won it from fourth. So, because I guess it's obvious because largely the fourth team sneaks in on the last day and there's like a two or three team shootout for it.

7:39And so therefore they've just made it and they play the best team in the league.

7:43Alfie: I guess also to, if that, just to, I should flag actually, we're going to be speaking to Elliot Daly, Will and Elgin having a chat with him later on in the pod. But Saracens kind of run here is incredible, isn't it? Like if you're talking about all the team in fourth have just snuck in and maybe you could argue that, well, it is Saracens that end up being fourth. They will be exhausted by the time they've got there because they've basically been playing knockout rugby for weeks and weeks on end. The other flip side of that is they might be the team that are in red hot form. Yeah, it's like the old days of Wasps, isn't it?

8:14Yeah. Under Sean Edwards and Warren Gatland. We'll get onto Edwards later in the pod, I'm sure, as well. but it's that is it better almost to be steeled for the playoffs by basically being in playoff mode throughout because it's been a funny end of the season for the top side hasn't it guys because it all feels like well saints have wobbled in that uh east midlands derby and then righted themselves actually kind of snuck a win against gloucester but battered bristol then you've got bath who are clearly wobbling after getting knocked out of the Champions Cup semi-final. You feel like they're sort of scrambling to the line a bit.

8:51And then Tigers looked in really hot form and then lost and were pretty scrappy and scruffy on Sunday. So if anything, the team in fourth and fifth are in the best form.

9:01Alfie: I feel like if anything this season, apart from Northampton, I feel like everyone else at some point has kind of mucked it up a bit, if you know what I mean. Like Bath's form has really dropped off. Leicester, as you say, were in a great position. and then you think at home against Exeter and they lose. Sarri's, as we know, we were writing them off not that long ago and are going on this incredible run. Bristol pre-Six Nations were in a great position and have fallen off massively. You feel like it's been one of those seasons where everyone at some point has had a real dip in form. Maybe to bring it back onto Bath though, and to your point of would Leicester rather go and play Northampton than have to go to the rec and face Bath.

9:38Alfie: Come back on that potentially is Elgin. When I was leaving Ashton Gate on Friday night, I was hearing quite a few conversation of Bath fans who, as you would expect, were there in fine voice and plenty of them making the short trip to Bristol for the game. Quite a lot of Bath fans saying, yeah, something's not right here. We're dropping off. You know, something has kind of changed. A lot of them pointing towards Lee Blackett no longer being in the building and how their attack has steadily got a little bit worse. That's a big cause for concern. And so I suppose my comeback to Will would be actually Bath might be a good team to play at the moment because their form is dropping off.

10:14Alfie: But what did you make of what you saw at Ashtongate on Friday and in particular from a Bath point of view?

10:19Elgan: Yeah, I mean, certainly by half time, they were leading 19-7. It looked for all money like they were going to maybe pull away with that game. And my sense of that first half was that I was comparing it instinctively to that East Midlands derby game of a few weeks earlier. I thought it's none of the needle that we had in that game. It doesn't feel quite as intent of a derby as that did a few weeks earlier. But then in that second half, Bristol perhaps do a sense of desperation of keeping it alive. We saw Henry Arundel's yellow card quite early on, so that helped Bristol. But yeah, this sort of 40-minute desperation to try and keep their season alive.

10:55Elgan: And Bristol, I was actually quite surprised by the man in which they managed to bring back from 1907. It ended up being a bit of a futile gesture for them. They've got a bit more positivity in the building before the end of the season, even though nothing to play for next weekend. But certainly Bath and Johan van Graan will look at that. And that's not the type of thing they were doing a few months ago. And, you know, their defence of the title has gone better than Northampton's went, where they won the league and then just almost fell away entirely, trying to win again the following season. So they're still in the run in that regard.

11:26Elgan: But, yeah, it certainly feels like they're not as infallible in terms of this bomb squad bench coming on, this team that can just batter teams up front that we've seen for large stages of this season. Those early months, it has altered somewhat significantly since then. Finn Russell not playing has got to change a lot, hasn't it? And Johan van Graan did say afterwards that a bit of a tight calf and it wasn't guaranteed that he'll play this weekend, but then he might be back for the semi-final perhaps. Yeah, I mean... You're not worried. They're in a semi anyway. and look we've gone through the permutations and I think Bath are probably wherever they end up will back themselves and would probably be favoured even if they go away somewhere unless it's Saints which is the least likely one that they'll get but Russell starting at 10 in one of those bigger games changes the dial massively doesn't it?

12:18Alfie: Yeah it does But then yeah Bath have been a funny yeah I remember when the Dyson money came in and we weren't necessarily talking about just this season we were talking about a kind of five, ten year look and we're going, can they build a dynasty there that lasts for a long time? And you sort of go, well, yeah, but they've maybe shown the difficulty of fighting on two fronts as Northampton did in a different way last season where Saints, and we got the salary cap report from last season last week, which was really interesting because it proved what we've been telling everyone that Saints weren't up to the salary cap and not even close to it, but made a Champions Cup final amazingly, but then finished eighth in the league.

12:59And then Bath have made the semi-final of the Champions Cup, had probably the best go at Bordeaux of anyone, definitely the best of anyone in this season's Champions Cup. And having lost to that game, they look like they're slightly searching for what they had before it, aren't they? So it's really interesting. But then you sort of go, well, if Bath were in that dip and Leicester were on the rise, that would have felt like a really tasty game. But then Leicester dropped as well. And so you're kind of going, God, both teams are going into this game on Saturday in not the hottest form. And taking it to my game that was at Wellford Road, Jeff Parling was livid and just kept talking about the execution, the execution, the execution, the execution.

13:44But to me, it just looked like they were just butchering fairly simple finishes, which they've actually been taking all season. So I thought Tigers dipping was interesting on Sunday.

13:54Alfie: Do you think that maybe one thing that does separate this season slightly from a lot of others in the Prem, and this actually might be really unfair on Northampton when they've won 14 of their 17 games, their fans might look at it and say, we're clearly the best team in the league. But actually, you're looking at the league table and it's not one of those years where you've got your team that are number one and have looked like the number one team for the whole season. You then got your obvious number two and it's probably going to be a final between those two at Twickenham. Now, it could still end up being that.

14:22Alfie: I don't think any of us would be shocked if Northampton will finish first. Wouldn't be a huge shock if Bath finished second. Wouldn't be a huge shock if on the 20th of June, that's the final. But more than other seasons, do you think it is less obvious for who the absolute best teams in the division are or all the teams that are going to get to the final are? Yeah, I think a few weeks ago we would have said Saints and Bath are so clearly the best two. But then, as we've just said, Bath have dipped. and also Tigers have kind of been in this third slot quite happily under the radar, looking good and sort of going, oh, everyone looking at Saints and Bath, are they?

14:58What about us? But also don't talk about us at the same time. But then they sort of, they lose on Sunday and you kind of go, oh, right, so are they actually as good as they have been looking? And now they don't really have a 10. Is that going to affect them? Like, can they win the title? with a junior 10? Probably not, I would say. It's crushingly rare that a team wins a Prem without top halfbacks.

15:27Elgan: It's why organisers like playoffs. In Britain, we still have this debate about whether a team should finish first, whether playoffs, etc. I'll talk about France here. They don't have that debate. They just love playoffs. They love finals. They always have. They've always had them. Without playoffs, Toulouse would just be winning the top 14 this season and Northampton would have won by now. But as it is, half of the Prem could still win over the next three weeks. And there are eight teams in the top 14 that could still win the top 14 as well. So that's why organisers like playoffs. Legitimately, a few people, as Elgin was saying, for the Prem, like traditionalists were looking at it going, God, we could have had such a good three-team title race if it was the first past the post.

16:06And now you look at it and you go, oh, it'd be boring, wouldn't it? Because Saints would have been crowned champions this weekend and it wouldn't matter what happened next weekend. We would have packed it up and gone. I always think the playoffs work. The playoffs are good.

16:17Alfie: I think, yeah, culturally we're used to them at this point. They work. The semifinals are always good fun. The final itself is always a great day out and always a good showpiece to end the season. And we all know and are accustomed to the fact that your league table is to get you into the playoffs and you go from there. And by the way, it often is still worth teams finishing first or second because it shows you're one of the best teams in the league. That's usually who ends up winning the title. I think the whole thing works. I don't really get the big debate around what if we should get rid of it.

16:46Elgan: Yeah, and culturally there have been more seasons with playoffs than there have without in the life story of the English Premiership. And there's only one thing you can guarantee from a system, and that is that with a playoff, it will be live until the final round. And so it's the one thing you can guarantee from a system. And that's why, even though it can be unfair on teams that run away with a league season and then lose a final, but as they say in France, a final is to be won, not played. should we do a bit on because we've kind of ruled out loads we've ruled out lots of teams for a while but now that Bristol are definitely not in the top four shake-up you're a man from that area what are you thinking about Bristol now because they've sort of righted the wrongs a bit of that dreadful 94-33 they've beaten Bath so you've got that one in the back pocket but still

17:38Alfie: really good record against it Pat Lamb made the point of we've never lost to them here since I've been in charge. They've not lost at all. No, not in the Prem. Since they've come back up. Yeah, since Pat's been in charge. I think Bristol are quite intriguing. And I suppose I'll do the kinder or more positive side of this first, which I think an important context of Bristol and which I think the fan base do appreciate is it's not that long ago that Bristol, let's be honest, were an irrelevance really. They weren't a premiership team or they weren't a consistent premiership team. They're in the championship.

18:11Alfie: They would always do well in the championship, but lose the playoff, struggle to get up to the premiership. And then that one time under Andy Robinson that they did get promoted, they went straight back down, didn't really make any kind of fist of relegation. That wasn't that long ago. And now under Pat Lamb, they are a consistent premiership team. They've never been in danger of being right down the bottom. They played good rugby. Crowds have increased like from where they were to where they are now is completely worlds apart. And I think there should, I think there would be an appreciation for Pat Lamb's role in that.

18:44Alfie: But I also think it's impossible to get away from the feeling now that what is it, three playoff appearances in eight years? A fear that it's maybe just a bit stagnant and stale and they haven't been able to get as much out of the group as perhaps they should. I think there's probably also a side to this of how good have Bristol's squads truly been since they kind of went out or away from their Galactico era a little bit when they had Randraandra, Piatal. Prime Lua Tua. Prime Lua Tua, Malin and Earl on loan from Saracens, admittedly. Apart from that team, I look at the squad they've built and actually think it's made on a good day.

19:30Alfie: it's a top four squad but you don't look at it it's not like you're looking at Northampton or Bath or particularly those two I suppose you're saying that squad should absolutely be top four so I think there is a mixture of things here but yeah I think you're right we are at a point with Bristol where you're looking at it and you're thinking what's next and is missing out on the playoffs again good enough well yeah I mean just looking at so we'll take this from Bristol and ball onwards which they finished top of the league as we all know lost to quins in extra time and sort of were discombobulated for a long time they then finished 10th in a 13 team league the next year which is the year where it all went to pot for quite a few teams um ninth fifth fourth last season and had a good go at bath who then won the league and then this season they're gonna be they're going to come sixth aren't they and you sort of go yeah that is probably under delivery so it's an interesting one and as we proved with the salary cap report last year money is a lot but it's not everything like bath paid up to the cap and beyond with credits and everything else last season so did sale and didn't win anything salaries are very close leicester got to a final up there and Quinn's consistently overpay for a poor squad and then below them Bristol are actually quite low and they'll come up a bit this season because they signed a couple of people like Zamit but Saints are getting way more out of their squad than their budget spend I suppose and then there's Newcastle away below who are going to come up but what do you think Elgin?

21:04Elgan: I think with with Bristol it's just how volatile it can all seem there because I think at the start of the season if you'd said you'll be at the playoffs with one round to go they'd be disappointed if you told them that after two days that's after two rounds rather you know AJ McGinty going down after 12 minutes of the season that how many injuries they had early on that Randall Ivetoy it was like the whole spine yeah then you might have been thinking okay actually being this close to running won't be too bad but then they had a period halfway through the season there was a nine game period where Bordeaux were the only team that beat them and then since then really since that 8-3 win over Exeter in that very January game.

21:39Elgan: I know some of those games have been Prem Rugby Cup, which is slightly different, but it adds to the sense of a feeling around the place. I think they've won three of their last 12 games in all competitions, so it hasn't been a great end of the season. And within that time, they lost the big day out against Harlequins. That was a killer. They went to Toulouse where people weren't necessarily expecting them to win, but they were beaten very heavily. And then the shipping of 94 at Franklin's Gardens is obviously something that just cannot be ignored. Yeah, I think they're a really interesting club.

22:08And I think Sale are another one where they've just felt properly lost in the last few weeks.

22:15Alfie: Yeah, Sale is different because I think with Bristol, you're looking at, as you say, almost the last five years, really, post the Harlequins defeat in the semifinal. Sale is this season has just been drastically poor, hasn't it? Compared with some of the levels we've seen them reach previously. They have been way, way off it. and then Newcastle, like what a moment for Newcastle, by the way, final player of the game from inside their own half, making the break, scoring the trial. They haven't had much to cheer about up in the North East. So an amazing moment for them. But you look at Sale under Alex Anderson now and massive pressure on him and his position.

22:50Yeah, and he, as I mentioned before, looked utterly broken afterwards. He was taking a long time to answer his questions on the telly after the game, kind of looking away to be like, I can't say what I want to say. I can't swear live on the TV he was he actually said it himself I'm lost for words and he's a guy who's very happy to talk to you for a long time and very open and was just gone and that's where you look at that and you worry a bit and I think that's what I could see him worrying about live on telly is that like my whole thing is togetherness and bring a team together and wanting it and loving each other and doing it as a group of men and if I can't get that out of these guys then what have I got and he probably thought they'd sort of dealt with all of that after the Saracens game and then they haven't really done anything about it since and you're kind of going what have I got left and I guess the positive flip on it is that look at what they're doing next season Courtney Laws is coming Nikki Smith is coming Thomas Francis is coming Joe joe marchant's coming they're clearly adding super duper quality to that team whereas maybe bristol it doesn't look like on paper they're adding five world-class players like sailor so you can see an obvious uptick there where you maybe can't unless it's just done on coaching with bristol or with quins who are now ninth in the league spending up to the salary cap by the way ninth that is properly shocking isn't it and it was based off Gloucester finding something getting a couple of points but man Quinns I mean maybe this isn't something you shouldn't really say but like Quinns should never be ninth in the Prem I'm sorry like I know it's a short sharp league these days and someone can finish low down like that but that club should never be ninth there's a lot

24:47Alfie: the the table this year is fascinating isn't it with some of the teams that have been cut adrift and just how awful their seasons have been. Like Sale, Quinns in particular, another year for Gloucester where they have underperformed and underwhelmed. Newcastle, we hope will be better, need to be better in terms of the competitiveness of the league. Like for all of those teams, next season is absolutely pivotal. Like they've got massive summers ahead. So yeah, we'll wait and see. Can I maybe to wrap it all up so that we've just covered absolutely everybody, which we don't always do on the Ruck, but it feels like a nice week to have done it.

25:20and it's going to be an annoying point because I feel like it's a bit of a killjoy point on Newcastle but does that game mean anything? It's absolutely fantastic, great scenes it was a pretty packed out Kingston Park which is a great effort 7.45 on a Saturday night because it was trying to avoid the Champions League final on the telly and they won, they won second win of the season the way they did it the greatest comeback in their history 25 points down a half time and they won, ridiculous but 26 players are leaving including like quite a lot of that team and so when they pick it up in the summer does it does beating sale in a game like that actually mean anything or matter for what they're going to do next season because hardly any of them are going to be like oh yeah you remember that what we did against sales like none of them are there but i think it's sorry

26:06Alfie: i think the challenge for newcastle in a way is we've all felt that this year is a write-off They've had two different head coaches. Red Bull came in so late that you always knew that when we get to next season, it's going to be a totally different squad. So does the win matter in terms of Newcastle on a sporting point of view? Well, no, I think it's good for those fans that have had to suffer a lot and fair play to them for still turning out and turning up and supporting their team. I think on Newcastle, there is real pressure on them, but more on Red Bull next season to be like, OK, come on then.

26:47Alfie: You've come in, you've invested, you have made a number of decisions. I still think with Steve Diamond where you're thinking, what are you doing? Make decisions. How are you actually going to improve this club? How are you actually going to take this club forward? This season's been a bit of a holding pattern from next season. I think we need to see something. And on that point, and we are always going to say this as the journalist, but I think they owe their fans. Red Bull owe the Newcastle fans an explanation about what their plan is. They're silent. They're a silent partner in that club. And I know there are frustrations up there that they don't, their policy as one of the great marketing companies in the world is to not talk about anything.

27:22And I'm afraid in sport, that's actually not good enough, especially with a team that they're completely transforming or seemingly are. they've got to actually explain what they're doing at some point because otherwise people just judge them on their results which apart from on saturday night are largely dreadful

27:36Elgan: the fans is one reason why i do think it is it was an important win because obviously they will you know they're not buying in new fans next season they'll still have the same fans next season and you know alex anderson talked about with that sale game about wanting to get a positive sense back in the building um which i think is something that bristol did at least achieve with the the win over bath even though it hasn't meant anything you know going into next season imagine if newcastle go into next season and everyone's talking about they've lost i don't know 15 games in a row but suddenly now they don't they won't have something like that hanging over them so even if there's new people in the building you do feel like there's something maybe getting a bit too sort of intangible and philosophical here but these walls have seen the feeling around the place something about these just his ship or something like that it won't be quite as downcast fan base etc because they'll remember oh well we you know we had that great win over sale.

28:28Elgan: And Stephen Jones is like, hey, look, my attack scored 45 points. Come on, lads, I can do it. I'll just mould this onto a different group of men and we'll do the same thing. Yeah, yeah, completely different squad. And Dan McFarlane's like, right, how did you do against Sale? Well, we were 35-10 down at half time and then...

28:42Alfie: Let's see what happened. We can always rely on you, Elgin, for an analogy that we weren't expecting, which is we always appreciate it. Let's leave our discussion on the prem there. Up next, Will and Elgin are going to have a chat with Elliot Daly. And after that, we'll come back and we'll finish up all the rest of the pod.

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30:19okay next up on the ruck is uh elliot daly from home in where elliot where are you dialing in from in harpenham i won't give my exact address yeah put around but yeah somewhere in harpenham we'll say keep the stalkers at bay um how are things how are you the last we heard about you you'd re-injured your arm how are things yeah um yeah not great news but yeah broke my arm again kind of a similar place but slightly higher up so just had to get another plate on the other side of my my radius but yeah hopefully that's that's done now but yeah had the operation about four and a half weeks ago so it's just recovery time but I'll be back in time for next season and whole pre-season which I don't know whether it's great or or not but that'd be good to be with the lads from day one.

31:03How frustrating is that because obviously famously did it first on the Lions tour which was gutting to start with and then to redo it in a slightly different way in the next season is heartbreaking in a different way I suppose yeah I think so I think I think me with injuries is it's kind of you've got to have a positive mind frame about it otherwise it kind of can really sort of keep you down I'm just trying to concentrate on obviously I want to be there with the lads but I'm just trying to support them as much as I can now and and obviously then just enjoy some time off in the summer and then come back fresh next year which which hopefully will be a big year and then the end of that year being a world cup year as well yeah how did you actually re-break it was it a bath game yeah i did it in about the 55th minute i think henry arundel broke through and obviously went to step and i put my arm out and his knee just hit me like in the exact location of basically what happened before right and it wasn't like an unlucky it just it was just hit it at the right angle at the right speed or whatever it was so um but i honestly didn't feel broken or anything so played the rest of the game and it was fine and then got a scan two days after it.

32:06We were actually about to play a paddle tournament and I was feeling quite confident with my abilities but then got a call saying, please do not play paddle, you've broken your arm. But yeah, it is frustrating but at the end of the day it's rugby and you've got to go on to the next thing really.

32:21Elgan: At club level, how Saracen is looking forward to this weekend? Obviously it's teed up for a very exciting last round with that game against Exeter in a playoff place on the line. Yeah, I mean it's why you play the game underneath these big games isn't it really so we know it's gonna be tough we know how how good they were at the weekend and how good their squad is so and how hard it is to go down there and win but we've got some confidence over the last couple of games which I think is massive when you get to this time of the year so hopefully we can translate that this weekend keep enjoying our rugby and then hopefully put ourselves in a position to win the game and then obviously whatever comes after that comes after that but I think we're just full focus on on going down there and trying to get a result.

33:00Elgan: How much is giving Mark McCall a fond farewell a thing that the players want to achieve this season? Yeah it's massive I think he's what he's done for the club is unreal I think 17 years he's been there now and the amount of trophies he's won and not only that just the way he is around the club around the boys he always is there for a chat he's the first one to message you when something goes well or badly and I think that's just the measure of the guys no sort of ups and downs with him he's very constant and very consistent which you need when you when you're in a rugby environment which is so pressured give us a sense of what he's done for you because you joined slightly later than some of those guys that came through the academy have known him for so long but what's he added to your game or been like is it almost on the pastoral side perhaps that people talk about quite a lot with him yeah i think for me like coming to coming to the club he was a he was a major point of coming to the club as well.

33:55Everything I heard from the Sarri's lads before that I knew was saying how impressive he was and how impressive he is with the whole coaching set up and how he runs the club. I think he's going to be sorely missed when he does go but for me my conversations with him are pretty good in relation to rugby wise. I think we see the game very similarly and then off the pitch he's always there if something goes well. As I said he's the first one to message you and if something goes badly he's the first one to message you I mean I didn't tell anybody about my arm and he was the first guy to message me so obviously he hears it first that's probably why but it's still it's still in his nature to make sure that I'm okay and it was more about how gutting it was for me rather than anything else can you give us a sense of the vibe at the place at the moment because you've been kind of playing knockout rugby for about a month haven't you like there was a point maybe before that Saracens game where Mark himself was kind of like yeah it's probably gone now but I'll try and leave it in a good place for next year but then you've basically won every game since and now you've got like a quarterfinal I suppose if you phrase it that way yeah that's the mindset we had and I think what's been difficult this year is we've been a little bit inconsistent in games but we've probably won games that we almost shouldn't have won and not played that well and then lost games that we've actually played well in and maybe lost it in the last minute or the last five minutes so it's hard to then get a gauge of how how you are as a squad I think that just before we went on on this run we did play three of the top four teams so you've got to look at it like that as well and we we probably should have won two of those games and you look at like that you're thinking okay we're not far off here and that shows in the last in the last bit this season where it's all kind of coming together a little bit we've got a bit of confidence there's we're enjoying our rugby so when you do that then as I said like confidence is massive when it comes to this end of the season um when it's really tight or there's big games you need that need that the whole squad every single guy in in the building needs to um think we're going to win in this weekend and whether that's you're not playing or you're injured or whatever because that that vibe goes through to the whole team and then hopefully we can push them along this week to win again is it been a funny season because we've seen a lot of blowouts and a lot of high scoring games but it almost feels like that the closer we've got to the end of it the more it's focused everyone's minds like this weekend particularly felt really tense all over the place and there were some much tighter games I don't know whether you guys have felt that as players where like when you got to the scenario where you basically had to just keep winning every time it almost helped help the focus yeah it's a weird one isn't it because mindset's a massive thing in rugby but um and sport but yeah I don't know whether the mindset's sort of changed towards that or as you said I don't know like whether teams are just getting a bit edgy when it gets to the end of the season I mean it does it does usually happen I think every time I've been at Saris we've kind of had this kind of run towards the end of the season.

36:45I think last year we did the same thing and we needed to beat Northampton on the last day and then we lost in the last 81st minute. So it's these things that, and at that point we were pretty confident in what we were doing and where we were. And I think there's so many guys that have been there and done that at Sarri's that they kind of understand what's needed in these final games, if you want to call it like that, and these big games. So I think they lean on those guys this week and the senior players really stand up in those scenarios. What about Exeter? I was at their game yesterday on Sunday and around that, I mean, lots of the personnel on both sides have changed, but they view it, playing you, as quite a rivalry because of all those finals that came, most of them before you got to Saris.

37:29Is it the same the other way around? I guess you've got rivals all over the place. Yeah, everyone seems to not like us, to be honest. No, I think it's always a massive game with Exeter. I think, as you said, there's always that rivalry it's always been that rivalry there and we understand like they've they've been very good team this year they've gone to a bit of extra of old with their with their four pack and all that kind of stuff so we understand what we need to try and do this weekend um i think as as you said it's it's a final really and whatever happens next week happens next week but i don't think any both teams would be thinking about that um i don't know what extra need out the game do they need a point i don't know what it's basically winner takes all yeah yeah so it's that that's what I mean and those games are the best games to play in because you know you can leave it all out there and if you don't quite do it then you've done then that's all you can really do and we move on to next season but um no there's a massive focus on winning this weekend do you still get the the lingering stuff from that 10 years ago like where people think oh gosh we really want to beat do you feel like that's still it's still there even though it's quite a long time ago now yeah I mean I've been when I came through like halfway to 2019 yeah people yeah don't people always play well against us if that makes sense they get out trying to say like i don't know whether that is because what they they're feeling or they just think i don't know but i think back in the day in like 2019 20 and all that that time when i first came i think the category of players that we had i think on paper you're like oh god this is gonna be a massive game do you know what i'm trying to say so i think from there it's just sort of built from whether that was 2012 when they started winning or 2014 15 16 where they were pretty dominant like i think you always want to play against the best team and you always want to put your best foot forward against the best teams so that's maybe in the mindset of of of teams these days but i mean as as we as i said the other day like this the premiership this year anybody can be anybody so it's it's one of those that you have to be on your game every single week and especially with only 10 10 teams being in the in the competition you need to every game is a massive game so i don't know whether it's that or or the fact they don't like us either either one as a member of saracen's back three contingent

39:33Elgan: Talk to us about Noah Kalori and what it's been like training with him and the season he's had, really, for the club. Yeah, I mean, he's tried to score like a million in about two games. Ten in two games, yeah. And four in another, 14 in three. But yeah, he's obviously a great talent. And around the club, he wants to learn. He wants to be the best player he can be. And we understand what a weapon he is as well. So kick the ball to him, he's probably going to get it back, which is these days is exactly what you want with the new rules and that kind of thing and I think the more unstructured ball like we get and teams get at the moment a lot of teams are capitalising from that so yeah he's been doing brilliantly I won't say loads of good things about him because obviously we want him to be grounded and thing but I know he's every training session he turns up he's very driven and wants to be the best player he can be so as much as we can help him do that it's amazing and he's definitely the right club to do that.

40:32Last couple to finish, Elliot. I'm thinking about you've been on so many of these Lions tours and you've had this unfortunate double injuries thing. Do you feel like there's more we could do to help guys who come back from that tour rest a bit? Like I know there might be a discussion around Marrow, whether he misses some summer stuff. Could there be a bit more built-in rest to help you guys recover? Because it's such a brutal schedule in the year that you go on a Lions tour, isn't it? You play so many games. like poor Alex Mitchell's done his hammy again hasn't he like you you do see that happen a bit the year after Alliance don't you where quite a few lads go down yeah I mean I don't know really what you can do about it because it's it's also dependent how many games you play on the Lions tour as well do you know what I mean you can go on a Lions tour and say if there's 10 games you can play four or if there's 10 games you could play 10 so it's it's hard to know what the right answer is I think I think with with Sarri's especially they were they were really good Obviously, I broke my arm, but with the other guys, they were good when you come back.

41:30And I think it's difficult because it's where you want to be. So you're never going to say that you never want to play. And I think, as I said earlier, with the Prem only being 10 teams, you can't lose too many games. So it's difficult to have a mandatory rest. But I think the way that I think guys came back and they were on the bench for a little bit and they didn't start every single game, I think that did help the guys at our club, especially just to get through. and obviously it's, as you said, it's a tough year and it's going to be a tough summer for the guys who go on tour as well and they'll get a long rest after that.

42:03But yeah, I mean, I'm not sure how you sort of filter that in. But yeah, as you said, when you come back from a Lions tour, it's always a tough year the year after to make sure you get to the end of it unscathed and then obviously on to the next season after that. Yeah. So now that you're out, but I don't know, staring down the barrel of a long pre-season, what's your fun bits of your summer looking like? you're going to the test match cricket this week uh yeah i'm trying to do wimbledon and a couple of test matches lovely and yeah i'm gonna stay in the uk holiday wise i think and then because it it'd be a long pre-season so i'll get a week off here or there and pre-season will go away but yeah just trying to trying to be chilled and i've i've not got a lot to do in my arm at the moment so um i can't really lift any weights for another five six weeks so um if i do look skinny next time you see me don't get to me well it sounds like you need to get to Lords to watch the cricket then that's a nice sedate activity for you yeah 100 % yeah just sitting down yeah perfect ideal awesome Elliot we really appreciate your time with us today and yeah all the best with the recovery hope you're back soon thanks mate cheers

43:14Alfie: so great to have Elliot Daly on the pod appreciate his time to finish up on this week's episode Will Elgin a couple of bits to get through really any other business Shall we start with the Champ, the end of the Champ season, the end of the playoffs and Worcester, their first season back after going into administration and it ends in silverware?

43:31Elgan: It feels like it's been a real breakthrough season for the Champ where it's got title sponsor streaming on Clubber TV. And you've now had this quite exciting playoff race where Ealing won all 26 games and then lost the semifinal to Worcester. You've got this combination of Worcester and Bedford. Worcester, a team that's obviously their first season back since they went bust four years ago. And everyone's assuming that one day there'll be a Prem team again in this expansion league that's coming in a few years. Then you've got you had Bedford in opposition who are just a classic champ team that's been second or third so many times down the years to big teams.

44:07Elgan: But they've been quite happy being there because they're a well-run, sustainable operation where promotion 20 years ago might have threatened their existence in the way it did in the late 90s when they got promoted. So it was a fun clash at Goldington Road. They sold out, it's just over 5 ,000, the capacity there. They sold it out on the day it went for sale on Sunday. They feel they could have sold the game several times over. So quite a fun occasion. And the story that Matt Everard said it would be unique and special in sport, Worcester, a team that basically didn't have any players 12 months ago, are the champions of the champ out of nowhere.

44:41Elgan: Well, I was going to say that, Will.

44:42Alfie: I imagine at Prem Rugby HQ, they were pretty pleased to see Worcester end up winning it. Because as Elgin says, remember, we had Matt Kvesic on the pod towards the start of the season. He was saying their pre-season was kind of like a squad that was just thrown together. They didn't have any players a couple of months before. They're almost having to work it out and work out how they do things as they go along. And so to end in silverware, it's pretty impressive really and quite significant, I suppose, for a club of their stature to be back in that way. So we're trying to expand the Prem in 2930 and there's a runway for teams to get up there.

45:14and they still haven't yet decided or at least announced publicly what their plans are for the kind of sporting criteria to promote teams on. They're wondering whether the team needs to have won the champ or at least finish in the playoffs or maybe the top six. But yeah, Worcester showing they're capable of winning the league even though they actually came fourth in the regular season table helps, doesn't it? Because as you say, when Prem Rugby are trying to play God with who they want. They don't want Ealing. Definitely not. But they do want Worcester. And so they can go, well, look, they won the league, didn't they?

45:50They beat Ealing in a semi-final. I mean, we've accepted for a long time in rugby that playoffs are a good thing, but it is still a bit mental that Ealing won 26 out of 26, lose and aren't the champions. I think they finished 30 points ahead in first, in the table, and they didn't win the league.

46:07Alfie: Yeah, normally we don't quite have it that stark, do we often? It's like, well, team's top of the table, but it's fairly close whereas that is kind of like yeah that's a tough one. The other one just because I was covering Leicester X as we've talked about on the pod before but what I found fun was like this narrative arc of Billy 12trees who's scoring points in the champ final. Yeah. Like 13 years after being a late call up for the British and Irish Lions and an England player and things like that. All the things he's done in his career and he's now a champ winner. That's very cool. It's cool.

46:37Alfie: It's a good career. Okay elsewhere. So congrats to Worcester. That's champ final. British and Irish Lions women's tour, the women's tour to New Zealand. It was announced last week that Jo Yap, former England player, very, very experienced coach, was most recently coaching the Australia women's team at the World Cup last year. Elgin, she is going to be the first ever coach of the women's British and Irish Lions.

47:00Elgan: Yeah, hugely historic moment to have probably the best qualified, most respected women's coach in the women's game to have that role. Inevitably, a lot of the focus on the announcement, focus on the fact it wasn't John Mitchell just because I think it had been trailed for so long that he'd said publicly he was interested the fact he was the head coach of the Red Roses the fact that he's a New Zealander who's beaten the Lions as a player for Waikato back in 1993 a lot of people were thinking that it might be sewn up in his direction but we know that the Lions were going to pick it on on merit but we also know that they were quite keen to have a historic female coach the first female women's lions tour so you've got joe yap who yeah 70 caps for the red roses she's capped into the world cup played at three world cups she's been a director of rugby at a pwr team she's been on the staff of the red roses both in 2015 but she's now about to start before she then immediately gets seconded to the lions the role of head of women's pathway which means she'll be you know she'll have a finger in just about every pie of the red roses that the seniors the age grade PWR where there are also which she's very familiar with players from outside of England like Wales Ireland and Scotland as well which will obviously be a huge part of the Lions tour we don't know exactly how many non-red roses there'll be but there there will be some so yeah a historic announcement and very interesting to see how that develops over the next few months she'll start full-time in January and she'll be actually speaking to the media next week at an event so we'll see how that goes a week on Tuesday.

48:27Two things I think they're interesting off the back of this one's a journalistic point and one's a lion's point or journalistic one first there were quite a lot of people I saw on social media who were quite annoyed at the fact that John Mitchell was the first name mentioned in the headline of the piece to say that Joe Yap was the women's Lions head coach can I just say that that's totally fair enough John Mitchell's the head coach of the Red Roses the most dominant team in the sport he happens to be a man but his his gender has got nothing to do with the fact that it was oh it was a man's name first like journalistically his name should have come first in that headline, right?

49:01And I know it didn't everywhere, but we did on our piece. I thought that was fair enough. Is that fair game?

49:06Alfie: Well, the context, I think the, yes, I agree. The context of the women's game is important here, isn't it? But if you do think about it very plainly and think if this was the men's game, I know people often don't like comparisons, but a person who has just coached England to win the World Cup, an England team that under him have never lost a single game, it would be an absolute shoo-in for the Lions job. So I think in the context of this, it's part of the discussion, But I think we also will probably understand why the Lions have appointed Joe Yap and her CV absolutely wants her getting that position.

49:35Absolutely, exactly. And there's no denigration of her talent at all in that. I think it's just on a new sense front, I think the most obvious appointment would be John Mitchell. So therefore it not being him is the story. So I think that was one point. And then the second point I was going to make on the Lions stuff generally, which can cover the women and the men, is she's not directly the head coach of one of the national teams. And is that a good thing for the Lions? I know she's English and she's now in the English pathway, so she's not that far removed. But should that be a theme for future tours with both genders, that you don't just pick the dominant head coach of one of the dominant teams, who therefore then basically picks largely their own for the whole thing?

50:19And is this a way of making sure that it's a slightly more representative squad from all corners of the home nations, Elgin, do you think?

50:27Elgan: It's difficult to know with the Women's Lions Tour just because everyone's expecting it to be so red rose heavy. It would be on merit. Even more than Ireland and Wales have been on the past on Warren Gatlin tours. So as I said, during the World Cup, I picked a very charitable Women's Lions squad in terms of representation. And there were 22 red roses in that. and since then we've seen them win another Grand Slam. With all of the young players. We've seen about 15 front line players. So that will be very interesting to see. Yeah, I mean, history is littered with many of those instances like the first one I think back to was Graham Henry in 01 where a lot of the Welsh players were thinking you've been pumping up our tyres to beat this lot all season and now you've picked the English lad instead of me.

51:10Elgan: So it certainly is fraught with difficulty but equally a situation like that there will be more a coach that's more aware of players from other nations so if there's an outstanding candidate from outside one of those four head coach roles then you think they would stand a good chance but it just tends to be that people instinctively look towards one of the four big head coaches isn't it for Wales, Ireland which is why I think it was a shock that John Mitchell didn't get the job not denigrating Joe Yap who's going to do a fantastic job I'm sure yep

51:37Alfie: now I'm with you congratulations to her final piece of news that I wanted us to get through on this week's pod Sean Edwards reported in L 'Equipe last week it's since been picked up elsewhere that he is going to be departing his role as defence coach with the French how significant is this? Immediately you see a lot of people saying RFU get on the phone Yeah so I think Steve Borthwick and the RFU are stuck here because they can't do the right thing now because if you're any fan or a former player someone like Andy Goode give him a 20 year contract I think he said the other day which is a bit like a Chelsea manager isn't it and then sacking them after three months but it's not certain that he's the best coach to come into the England setup right now certainly England have got loads of coaches and you would probably say that he would beat all of them well he definitely would for experience CV everything else medals but is he the right person to come in now maybe not they've just signed up Byron McGuigan who's one of about five defence specialists in there backroom team so I don't think it necessarily works for England to recruit Sean Edwards now regardless of his CV however if they don't and they miss the chance and he goes somewhere else fans and everyone will go I can't believe this has happened again about a third or fourth opportunity to try and get Sean Edwards and it's not happened the guy with the best CV in rugby Ligue 1 Union they can't get him there have been suggestions out of France for quite a while

53:11Elgan: that they were looking to maybe move on. And the suggestions for a long time were that they simply didn't have enough money to change the coaching staff, essentially. So in that sense, it's not a huge surprise that they are perhaps now finally looking to move on. You mentioned Andy Farrell there, sort of Andy Farrell and Sean Edwards, two great Wigan men of rugby league who've come over to be such huge coaches in rugby union. I think of the two of those people, if England had to pick one to go after, So, you know, Andy Farrell's the one at the peak of his powers right now, isn't he? It reminds me of, when I was covering Wales, there was an Ireland game in the Six Nations.

53:49Let's say it was 2018 or something like that. And, yeah, it would have been that year, I think, because Wales were going to Ireland. And we spoke to Sean Edwards in the week. And it was a sort of easy, kind of half-volley type question of, like, tell us about Andy Farrell. And it triggered Sean Edwards so much. but in the best way because he sort of went like I love Andy and I love his family however no one has won more trophies than me League or Union the only trophy not won World Cup he just went for it he like printed his CV off in front of everyone he's done that he does that quite a bit doesn't he it was so good and it was at the time where he was angling for a bigger contract better contract with Wales didn't signed for Wigan Warriors then reneged on that to then go to France so like the story of Sean Edwards is not over like he's gonna go somewhere he said publicly before he wants to win the rugby championship it's not happening this year so he can't do it this year but I mean where could he go Australia they would they take him for a home world cup that'd be cool wouldn't it short-term project he'd have a decent link there with lots of the leagueies wouldn't he yeah yeah um the thing I've I've tried to talk to a couple of prem teams to just be like hmm Sean Edwards what do you think and the sort of assumption is that he would be too expensive for a prem team to take in however if some of them are bringing in big investment would you don't know and then it's an odd situation because if he then starts tearing up trees like let's say he goes to sale or something and sorts out their leaky defense then it's like well why is he not coaching england this is ridiculous he's sitting there it's like if andy farrell goes to saracens and then starts winning all these titles everyone's like what's he doing at saracens get him in well a tricky

55:28Alfie: situation for the rfu perhaps we'll see where should sean edwards end up you can let us know So theruckatthetimes.co.uk is the email address. We'll be back with you next Monday to round up the final weekend of action in the Gallagher Prem. Look ahead to the semifinals. We'll be back with you next week. Appreciate you listening. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Since he got out, bad things keep happening. Cape Fear is streaming on the 5th of June on Apple TV. Why would I want to hurt you? Starring Academy Award winner Javier Bardem And Academy Award nominee Amy Adams He is coming after my family Cape Fear, streaming on Apple TV on the 5th of June Subscription required