Why did the RFU back Borthwick?

0:00Alfie: Business is booming, but you know what really helped? Zero. The accounting platform for small businesses. I used to think spreadsheets were just part of it. Ugh. But real-time cash flow? Wow. Invoices that chase themselves? Even better. Books that automate? That's a big one. And I can keep track from my phone while I get the job done. No spreadsheet in sight. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply. Today's episode of The Ruck is brought to you by Allianz. They've been part of the rugby family for over 13 years now, backing the game at every level from the muddy grassroots pitches to the biggest stages in the sport.

0:44Alfie: And their partnership with the home of England rugby, Allianz Stadium, isn't just about putting a name on the building, it's about backing the future of the game and the generations still to come. We're proud to have them on board. Let's get into it.

1:12Alfie: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Massive weekend in the Prem to review. England and France have set up a Grand Slam decider in the women's Six Nations. No shocks there. And some interesting investment news in the English game. All to get through. Welcome along, I'm Alfie Reynolds and in studio with me on a Monday, Will Kelleher. Hello, you alright? I'm very well, thank you. And Alex Lowe, alright Alex? Hello. I think the last time, Alex, we had you on was before you were heading off on under 14s? 15s. Under 15s. Under 15s rugby tour. Rugby tour.

1:44Yeah, eventful. Can I ask how it was? Eventful. It was really good. It was really good. So the week before, we were talking about it because I'd gone to Coventry, I'd done that community rugby. That's right. Old North Antonians, heart and soul of the game. and I was really looking forward to going on my third tour with Wallingham and the guys there and it was everything you'd want. And I think they played water sports and a whole lot of fun on a Saturday and they played rugby at Swanage and Wearham Rugby Club on a Sunday who were hosting, I think about four or five teams from around the country.

2:19Definitely Chepstow, Billericay, Bromley, I think. And it was just a big festival, lots of fancy dress. but one of the most one of the best things about it for me is watching the lads so in the squad that my son plays in there's six or seven I think from the same school but they build relationships with lads from other schools which is so I think it's just so important so you just see them off in their little huddles hanging out and we were staying we're down in Dorset so on the beach and I mean up to all sorts of things I'm sure which are probably probably best I don't know nice but it's just you know again it's what the game is all about and we'll spend the rest of the pod talking about the pro game and England and RFU and politics but this is what it's all about and it only works it's the same point I'll repeat from when I went to see the guys at Old North Antonians but it only works because of the volunteers like the coaches who give up their time to train the guys and plan the tours and that's you know being at Swanage and Ware I mean looking around at all these clubs on tour and I was chatting to a group of lads from Wales and it's the same everywhere and it all only exists because these guys do a great job and yeah so it was good what goes on tour stays on tour Alfie quite right no dirt being dished out here but um there were a few fines to parents and boys uh-huh okay nice reveal anything else beyond that but it was a

3:46Alfie: great weekend well I'll have to say to the times social team there's no social media clip that we're able to pick out this. That would have been quite something. Dobbing all the kids. Will, where did you go? Did you go on a rugby tour when you were a schoolboy or something like that? Oh, as a schoolboy, yeah. Or either, like club, schoolboy, anything. I went in 2000, I went to Norfolk and we played in Dis, which we all found very funny as like nine-year-olds. Yeah. Ali G. Ali G. I've watched Ali G in the house on the coach down to Weymouth, I'm going to say. I think we went to Weymouth twice and possibly as a group got banned from the golf course there because we were messing about.

4:19lots of knockdown gin like all sort of like there wasn't any like horrible stuff it was just boys being silly basically running about yeah exactly but we'd play yeah as you say like quite random clubs from all over the country and stuff like that like i think we played against a team called the hornets once and lots of this would just touch rugby because we were so young hornets somerset yeah i think it was yeah and like western super mayor that sort of area other people yeah so it's quite a good club yeah i think it was what i think i remember rightly that it was one of those where because and especially at that level in those days i'm talking like i'm 85 but i'm not for like there's you don't really you're not really aware of what's happening outside your little bubble of the teams you always play against and this lot we were like they haven't lost for two years this group and we smashed them like seven nil i.e seven tries not when at the point where you weren't counting it wasn't like 28 because we weren't doing conversions so yeah we just hammered them mate it was it yeah actually one of the dads made one of the dads made that point about about my son's team they'd had a difficult season and then they go on tour and you realize actually you do play quite a good standard of rugby you're up against some other teams who who look good and are really fired up and perform really well it's yeah it's it's a great these tours are great and for under 15s it's the last one there won't be one next year because of gcse's by under 17s he definitely won't want me anywhere near yeah that's probably it yeah

5:43Alfie: nice well it's what it's all about i'm glad that you had a good time anyway but i'll leave my questioning uh there if i can actually switch us from a local a local rugby tour so i suppose that the top of the game top of the men's game in england anyway last week we had the release of the findings if we can call it that of england men's six nations campaign review their worst in six nations history and i feel like there's quite a few questions here to ask the the one that sticks out in my mind the most and what sprung to mind to me immediately was if i can wind the The clock's back, wind our memories back to the Sunday morning after England had lost to Italy for the first time.

6:22Alfie: We were all in Rome. Their Six Nations campaign was in total tatters. And there was a statement from the RFU and Bill Sweeney in which he said, Bill Sweeney, we remain fully committed to supporting them, that the team and the players as they face France this weekend at the end of Six Nations. And then look ahead to the Nations Championship and the Nations Championship, I thought was quite an interesting reference at that point in time. of the timeline in the minds of those at the RFU for this England team and what they were working towards and obviously the three fixtures for Steve Borthwick to tackle.

6:53Alfie: So now, after a review into that Six Nations, I'll repeat, the worst ever Six Nations for the men's team, Borthwick has been backed as the man to lead them through to the 2027 World Cup. So why? What's changed? Well, we don't know because the review which has been conducted by people who can't be named has backed Steve Borthwick, has strengthened his position for reasons that they declined to share, citing high performance confidentiality. The review was never going to get rid of Steve Borthwick immediately. I mean, that was pretty clear from the outset, and I think fair enough. But it is interesting that through the review process, Borthwick's position has been strengthened.

7:36So instead of waiting for the evidence of the summer, the RFU panel have advised Bill Sweeney to endorse him as the head coach and his team the whole way through now to the World Cup. You can only assume that he has given assurances and they've dug deep enough that the issues that went wrong will be fixed. I still don't think it guarantees Steve Borthwick the job through to the World Cup. They've backed him. And all that really happens is if England have a desperate summer, which was going to be the proving ground if you like that where the panel would gain the evidence from then it just it's going to entwine conor o'shea and and bill sweeney into the whole conversation because if you rewind to 2022 six nations england's had another losing record they've had four in six years they backed eddie jones there's a real danger that if england do not have a good summer if he if they don't show the the progress that has evidently been promised then England will find themselves back in a very similar situation where the pressure will be enormous on the the England head coach and now on Bill Sweeney and Conor O'Shea because they have backed this they've backed this setup now if you were to remove Borthwick the immediate question is who do you bring in and if they can't answer that question very easily then they probably decide it's better to stick rather than twist.

9:02I think the obvious people would be Michael Checker as a proper firefighter, proven record doing that, but you'd have to buy him out of the NRL or move John Mitchell across from the Red Roses. That would be another short-term option. But if you went for anyone with grander long-term ambitions, then are you impacting what decision you make post-World Cup when the RFU, in my view, have to put themselves in a position where if they don't want Borthwick beyond 27, they have to be at least asking the question of Andy Farrell and giving him the option to turn England down, which he may well do. He may well prefer Ireland.

9:41He may well prefer the Irish system, but he's the best. He's an English coach. He's the best performing English coach out there. So all these factors, who would succeed short and long term would come into it, as well as promises to address areas within the squad. so it sounds like there's going to be some leadership changes around Marrow as one of the things that will be addressed the other I think will be how they how England play yeah but on the on the first point of those two Charlie put it in his matchup after the Tigers game and it wasn't just because of that Tigers game but he manifested it brilliantly was Oli Chesson you feel like he's he's the next one to join the leadership group isn't he so the moment is it's it seems like it sort of changes because you've got kind of game drivers so you whoever's the nine and ten and things like that you've also got all the vice captains that they list on match sheets which gets longer each time yeah so that's sort of ford genge jamie george atoji and then there's kind of earl and dingwall and we've had slade before and things like that so there's quite a lot of people maybe that's almost one of the problems is there's too many voices perhaps at the top end but you feel like ollie chessham yeah would would offer both the kind of maybe in the week the cool headedness the fact that he's always going to be in the team but also even more he's showing the sort of like an emotional side of it that you kind of need yeah but another thing i think that's interesting in here is that is that second bit the way they play yeah and we're not going to get true evidence of that until ellis park and what a place to show it either way whether it works or doesn't against the best team in the world the back-to-back world champions in their own backyard and if you get it wrong you're losing by 50 there like that's not a place where you can go gosh we had a few little errors if i was in that room as steve borthwick that review room if it existed i would have review zoom call yeah i would have i would have made a point about the summer that that is not the place to judge don't judge me maybe that's where he won because he's been backed beyond it that's what and so it's like okay we get it you're playing the box away Because it's box away, fly back, play Fiji in Liverpool and fly out to Argentina all on consecutive weekends.

11:52That is a brutal schedule. He's got a limited squad of 36. So there was one idea originally of could he send a team out to Argentina early to get them acclimatised and prepped? He can't do that. He might send a few, but he can't send a whole team. So it's a devilishly difficult summer for England logistically and rugby-wise. And I wouldn't be surprised if he made that point to the panel going, you can't judge me on, look at the hand you've dealt me negotiating the nation's championship. And our first go at it is this. It's incredibly difficult. And I guess as a counter, they could have gone, well, the hand you've dealt us is being like serene progress of 12 wins in a row and then utter despair and destruction of being first loss ever to Italy, just properly not being there for the Ireland game.

12:44And then sort of rallying when it didn't matter. Yeah. Like that's the hand you've dealt us, Steve. They could have said and say, look, what are we meant to do now? We thought you had this nailed. Yeah. And now look at what your Six Nations produced. And we can't understand it. And none of the players can either. We've interviewed some of them and they don't know. I had a long conversation. It was in the Sunday Times this past weekend with Connor Murray. And we covered a lot of... I talked about Andy Farrell there and why the RFU... I'd be amazed if they don't make a play for him. And it's delicate politics because if they don't get him, they have to say to Steve Borthwick, if he comes through and he is the guy, no, no, we back you as well.

13:19But I don't think it's unreasonable to be inquiring about Andy Farrell. And sorry, just to pause on that quickly, would it not be politically clever for the RFU to make it known if it doesn't happen that it was Farrell's decision? Yeah, I think so. So it's like they can't be got at for not trying. Because as you say, I think I agree, the worst thing they can do is assume that he would say no or not try. Yeah. Because they're being a bit too, oh, well, no, he's got a job. And he's like, come on, we're all adults. Get on with it. Yeah. Fire back channels, whatever. but you've got to ask and then whether it's off the record or whatever make it clear that if he doesn't want it it's because of his choice his choice because he's settled in Ireland his son's at school the system is so much more beneficial for a head coach in Ireland than it is than the club country partnership in England which was one of the points that Connor Murray made in this long chat I had with him and it was fascinating to talk about Andy Farrell because all of the areas so Connor Murray was coached by four of the great coaches of the era Razzy Erasmus, Warren Gatland, Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell and Andy Farrell is his number one and he said that I didn't even ask and so we explored what makes Andy Farrell so good and why it felt really pertinent was a lot of the areas that we know the England review will have gone into game plan, environment, selection, the kind of emotional connection between the head coach and his players.

14:46Connor Murray says Andy Farrell is unrivaled in all of those and And Connor Murray was saying that Farrell will get you to play beyond yourself. Because I know physically that's not possible, but in international rugby, it could be so... This is a bit that really chimed. In test rugby, it could be so easy to play safe. It could be so easy to play within yourself because the pressure's high and the margin for error is so much smaller. So you don't take the risk. Farrell has a way through his personality and his coaching and his empowerment of players the players in that jersey walk onto the field chest out believing they can play beyond themselves and it's a small thing he doesn't want players there's a framework in the game plan of course but the only pressure he puts on the island players is score as quickly as you can so if you think it's on and you see it's on go for it if you're not looking if it's on down the short side and you haven't looked that's when he's going to come at you in the review because it means you've played an extra phase that wasn't needed.

15:50And when Ireland get it wrong, Andy Farrell comes out in Paris and says, that is not what I expect of an Ireland team. There was no fight. It's a live public review. He doesn't pull any punches that night in Paris. And look how Ireland responded. And the way that England played, particularly in the Ireland game. And although England talk about actually the Italy game was really good, none of the rest of us saw it. but there was a massive shift to France where suddenly Ben Spencer, instead of having an overlap but not even looking for it and kicking because that's the game plan, suddenly Spencer was stepping around the fringes and sniping and England were playing and that is the difference for me is that at the moment we talk about how England have to play differently and the phrase used to me was England will play in the right way.

16:37That's not playing it loose and throwing it and being reckless and careless it's playing what is in front of them not what's been written down for

16:45Alfie: them in the week so how much did what happened in paris then at the end of that six nations and the performance in the game that england put in kind of save steve bothwick thank you massively like they're talking about it as if they won a game as well aren't they it's all a bit after the law in the in this new statement bill sweeney references it the great performance in france and you have to sort of go you lost but you did lose that game and like we were all there and it was an amazing amazing occasion ridiculous match went down to the last kick but england did play differently but there's so many different contexts where you can go hang on there's not really anything on it we've been there before yeah like when they lost a very similar style game in leon a couple of years earlier that was became the start of a run of games where england were playing proactive they were playing good rugby but they just didn't have what was required to win those games and we went down to New Zealand they lost those two games narrowly but the general feel was was positive it was a fairly young new team taking strides and they were just butting up against a glass ceiling and it became really frustrating through that autumn because they couldn't nail it and they were making silly mistakes and they didn't have the experience and Borthwick in the following Six Nations, he loads the bench with Lions players, they nail the last 20 minutes and they start to win games.

18:07And so what would be frustrating is if they put a lot of stock on that France game because of what's possible. But we've seen what's possible. And the question is not so much what can this England team do? Because we saw them beat the All Blacks, not vintage All Blacks, but we saw them beat the All Blacks in November. We know what they can do. The question more is why did it go off the rails so markedly? And so why did it spiral so quickly and so deeply?

18:35Alfie: And is that not the problem here with all this? I'm thinking of a lot of our listeners who will be saying, but the game plan under Borthwick has never been good enough. He's not the guy to winning in the World Cup. He's not the guy to lead them forward. They need to get rid of him. But is the ultimate issue here, we don't really know what they've discovered in the review process other than their conclusion is Steve Borthwick is the guy to take us through to the 27 World Cup. The lack of transparency is the problem here. I asked someone, if you're not going to tell us what you found, tell us what will be different when we watch England play.

19:05And the only answer I really got was they're committed to playing the right kind of rugby. That's like who, though? Who's committed to playing the right way? Because I know that this review did not involve all of the players. No, it didn't. I interviewed George Furbank the other week and he was someone who you'd think, well maybe he should have been involved in the review and he wasn't it's funny because it took so long the review and you made a comparison in your piece to the cricket review the basball review which was very similar it was disastrous tournament let's think about this for two months everyone stays in place and we're going to do things differently yeah and the captain is going to stay the same and so's the coach and so's the guy who appointed the coach it's very very similar to the Ashes basketball project thing, isn't it?

19:53It's very similar. And the evidence of the cricket will be the summer as well when we suddenly see the opening pair, whoever that is, probably not Zach Crawley, and what shots they play and what balls they leave. And it'll be the same in this part where we go, if there's a chance to go from your own half in the first 10 minutes, are they going or not? And who's deciding that? Fascinating, isn't it? Because it doesn't... We don't know. And we don't know who the 9 and 10 is going to be. So is it going to be them? Or is it going to be dictated by Borthwick and Blackett and Wigglesworth and the coaches?

20:22We don't know. And so that's what, I mean, this game was going to be fascinating anyway, this July the 4th England box, just because, and I can't wait. We're lucky enough we're going to be there. I can't wait for it because I've never properly done a game in South Africa other than like Stormers-Quins once. And I can just imagine the hostility in that ground pouring down from the stands because England are there, because probably Pollock's going to be in the team. It's going to be dripping with all of that. And then there's this intrigue about how England are going to go about it, because they're not just going about it against an also-ran, they're going about it against the best team in the world who will delight in tearing them apart.

21:00And can I say, we also said from Verona that the RFU don't issue that statement and launch a review of this depth if they believe it's just some bumps in the road. There's a review after every campaign. You know, England haven't won the Six Nations since 2020. Every one of those campaigns have been followed by a review. this review was deeper and the the reaction of the rfu to put the statement out mid championship just confirmed that they knew or they feared something significant was was wrong they had to they had to do this review it had to be deep it had to ask really difficult questions but if you then if you then publish the findings and the findings are what the head coach said was wrong in the last week of the six nations which is we're not scoring enough points we're getting too many yellow cards um not take a chance and not taking our chances it's like well basically what are the three things you need to get right to win a game rugby and the reason why they don't like just to explain why they don't tell us who's on these panels apart from bill sweeney connor o'shea and ben k there are others but we don't know is that they say that the people who are on them want to be anonymous so that they can talk freely and there have been previous reviews that have got leaked to the press before in their entirety like after the 2011 world cup wasn't it yeah and so then the players don't talk candidly because they know it was just going to end up in the papers and the third bit is that everyone's so damn scared of Razzi Erasmus that they don't want any information about the high performance program getting leaks out either because he'll get his hands on it and try and beat you with it but I think there's a there's a sort of wider fundamental point here which is sort of anonymous panels and reviews and things like that might work nicely in business or you're trying to keep sort of trade secrets but this is sport like fans have paid thousands of pounds to watch this team and committed a lot of their savings to do it and do so all the time and so don't they deserve a bit more of an explanation than you've just watched the worst six nations ever and we've done a really deep review into this all we can't tell you what we found out but it's fine they are caught you've just those those two points there they find themselves caught between a rock and a hard place because they also you know let's just say there's a problem with two senior players and that was disruptive or let's say they found that communication internally between departments wasn't what it should be all things that we've heard might be the case if they go public with that then they're throwing those individuals under the bus yeah if there's a game plan problem then they're handing something straight to Razia Erasmus so I understand it's difficult but I you know we we started this conversation half an hour ago about what have we learned and the reality is that based on on the conclusions laid out in the in the review what we've learned is what we already knew it's only through the summer and the nation series tests that we'll actually be able to witness anything that might tell us what what was involved and you've also got the the issue that you know England know the RFU know that what happened at the World Cup last time is that once England can get their players together for two months they reckon they can give themselves a puncher's chance at a World Cup now I think on a wider scale that's a failing attitude because as I said earlier they've had the same number of losing records in six years as they've won six nations titles in 22 years it's that that's not good enough but if it could be rectified with a puncher's chance at a World Cup then it gives them one chance to sort of excuse it you know I don't think I think England need to be aiming higher than that they've been number one in the world for one week since since 2004 I mean that's not good enough for a team of England's ambition expectation and resources the lack of transparency

24:52Alfie: as we said I think is the major problem here and even though I get as you guys have rightly outlined that they have to protect individuals for certain reasons and you know the ip of the team to a certain degree i think they could still say more than they have with the statement they put out last week for why they've reached this and i guess that the absolute key point is if we've not learned much more let's hope the rfu have because otherwise we're going to be back here in another two years where we get this big spike of performance and we go there we go we've all sorted it out and then it slowly slowly slowly creeps and falls in a heap again and then we have another big review two years later and then we go we've learned some harsh truths about what we're going to do next then we go through it all again well let's leave uh england the men's team there and move on to the women's and the women's six nations elgin will be joining us in just a moment if you want to send us an email on anything england's steve borthwick his future the rfu review then you can do so email is the ruck at the times.co.uk but up next elgin is going to join us in studio just a quick breather to tell you about today's sponsor allianz a partner that's It's all about opening rugby up to more people.

25:58Alfie: Their support goes way beyond Allianz Stadium. Through the Allianz Future Fund, they've already put over£100 ,000 straight into community clubs across the UK, helping fund projects that bring new people into the game. And with the Allianz Kickstart programme now reaching 5 ,000 schools, thousands of kids are getting their first taste of rugby, some for the very first time. If your local club could do with a bit of a lift, Check out the link in the show notes and nominate them for an Allianz Future Fund grant.

26:54Alfie: What a life. Do right by yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply. Most people don't realize how much of their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where Aura comes in. Aura actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off.

27:34Alfie: They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But Aura goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to$5 million in identity theft insurance. All backed by 24-7 US-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or even just a VPN. Aura gives you all of it together at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at aura.com slash safety. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash safety. So on to a review of the Prem action in just a moment.

28:21Alfie: but Elgin has joined us in the studio. And Elgin, you were in Italy for England's victory, 61 points to 33. But is the story here about that second number that I just mentioned, the 33 points England conceded rather than the 60 that they put on the board?

28:36Elgan: Definitely. John Mitchell took the approach that we'll just score one more than you next week, which we've seen England do that against France before, 43-42 in last year's Grand Slam decider. But certainly in recent years, we've become very accustomed to seeing the Red Roses win games by margins of 50 to 3, 50 to 5, conceding one score. The last two games now, Wales and Italy have managed to try scoring bonus points against the Red Roses. So it just adds a little sense of jeopardy before this France game, where you do think it's the annual Grand Slam decider that we're so accustomed to. But actually this time, with all the injuries and pregnancies and absences that England have, with the fact that teams are finding ways to score creatively, whether it's Wales at line-out moves or Italy finding holes around the breakdown for two of their tries.

29:22Elgan: Suddenly there is a sense that, you know, there is a bit of, there's a question mark over what will happen in Bordeaux this weekend.

29:28Alfie: It's funny you should mention that because Jemima emailed theruckatthetimes.co.uk and the question in her email was, with the current absentees through pregnancy and injury, is now the perfect opportunity for France to win the title again?

29:41Elgan: definitely yeah Louis Deacon said before the Italy week that you know winning the Grand Slam with all these absences might trump the World Cup for effort now a lot of people might scoff at the fact that winning the Six Nations can trump winning a World Cup but when you think of just what it would mean if they were to win at the Stade Atlantique against possibly a capacity braying crowd France that again scored 69 points against Scotland so their attacks looking pretty good as well the fact that they're for the italy game anyway they were missing nine of their 13 forwards from the world cup final had a pair of 19 year olds starting learning test rugby on the fly as it were just as a one-off occasion that would rival anything the red roses have achieved in their past 37 successive wins i was and what would that mean for france on the other side like just looking through the back catalogue they had some more dominant areas right at the start of women six nations then last two titles was 2014 2018 and then it's been roses all the way since so for them to finally beat the big boss would be enormous for them wouldn't it yeah a lot of the games in recent years even though england have won every six nations since 2018 a lot of the games have actually been very close as i said twickenham a year ago there was only one point in it by the end i know france scored very late on to get it to that place but it's quite common that it's been a one score game between the two so when you are looking at the Red Roses having so many absences and they might have a few players back that they've been missing during this championship but certainly you'd have to say it's the best chance they've had of beating them in the

31:16Alfie: past eight years you mentioned the points that England have conceded that's been a feature of the last two games of conceding try bonus points but we don't often see them do it happen against Wales it happened against Italy in your mind why is that between obviously the injury list England have and the players unavailable and them looking to attack more expansively is that fair it feels like the focus is on attack here for England in this six nation so how much is that taking away from defensive efforts or the time they're able to spend on working on the defense I do think

31:45Elgan: there's always an element when teams are attacking better that unless you are just an utterly dominant force that is brilliant at everything then inevitably some other aspects of the game with will give way I think primarily is the fact that you have two 19 year olds in the in the pack you've got you know Haini Alalatoui who's just an out and out number eight really and she's starting a test age 19 in the second row. Demel's a short who hasn't looked out of place but again a 19 year old as good as you can look in when you first come to test rugby there will be things that you aren't accustomed to doing and John Mitchell said you know we've we've got players that are learning in the heat of battle about the importance of ruck defense about mall defense so there are lots of things for these players so you've got someone like Chris Balligan at 28 who made her debut on the weekend so it was she's older but it was her first game as well so I think the lack of Zoe Stratford the lack of Abby Ward all these players that just know exactly what what it takes at the at the top of the game I think that is the main thing behind this sudden influx of tries that

32:41Alfie: are being conceded and where are England in terms of fitness and some of those players that were absent for Italy returning for the France game so John Mitchell has suggested that Lily Ives

32:51Elgan: Campion who started the tournament as the first choice lock I think we're now down to the fourth or fifth choice pairing and she would have been in the second or third of that rung he said that she might be back uh sadia kabea who is so important on that defensive side with her big hits in the back row she might be back as well maddie fainati who was a late withdrawal for the italy game he suggested that she might be back as well so they might be strengthened in that regard there will still be absences though because like i said in total nine of those 13 forwards for various reasons so but they might have three of them coming back which will undoubtedly strengthen them.

33:26Alfie: And for all the players that England are missing, they are incredibly glad to still have Marley Packer. Four tries on the weekend, another player of the match award in this Six Nations. They're relying on the veteran, aren't they, at the moment? And he's putting in probably some of her best performances in an England jersey. Yeah, I mean, Marley Packer

33:41Elgan: brought up of her own accord after the game. She said that Hady Head and Chris Balligan, who had just become Red Rose's 271 and 272, Marley Packer is Red Rose 150. So she's seen 122 two players come after her in her international career. I think after Marley had had the captaincy taken off her last year, had seen herself fall out of the first choice team playing only one game in the World Cup, I think a lot of people thought that it might have been retirement after the World Cup at 36 years old.

34:11Alfie: You wondered that, didn't you? That you thought that home World Cup sold out, you know, where the Red Roses have gone from when she made her debut to where they are. It felt like the perfect time for her to retire, but no sense that she has any plan on doing that.

34:25Elgan: It felt like you wouldn't have begrudged to that and I think before you had all these absences you would have thought when you got the first choice players you want to then blood the likes of Demelza Short, Heine Al-Alatoui. It so happens that there have been so many absences that they are probably very grateful that they now have a 36-year-old Marley Packer with more than 110 caps and now 59 tries. She's only too shy of the England record held by Sue Day. So yeah, she's got six tries in the last two games playing perhaps some of the best rugby of her career and who knows how much longer it'll go on for.

34:54Elgin, where do you stand on the 4.5 ball debate, which erupted again last week? I think Zoe Harrison, very against the trial that's coming in in WXV. A ball specifically for female players, smaller hands, smaller feet. Will it make the game better, easier to play? I know the pros don't like it because they've grown up playing with a size five. And if no one wants it, why is it being trial?

35:23Elgan: my instinctive reaction is that i don't think it's necessary um the primary reason i think that is just it's international rugby one size ball i just think it's a bit more straightforward if if everyone's playing with that same size ball we've seen the argument i think from someone like zoe harrison's point of view is she's played with a size five ball her you know basically her whole life kicking and handling is better than it's ever been in the women's game and will presumably only get better Zoe Harrison had kicked 18 successive conversions in a row and and kicking is the one area of the game where it is a direct comparison between the men's and the women's game because they're kicking from the same distances it's very much the same thing and she was doing it as well as anybody in the world which is why the thing about Zoe's remarks last week were I don't think she'd been told until the journalist asked her a question about it which says all about how much the actual players have been asked about it.

36:16Elgan: I've seen some former players be in favour of against it. And from what I understand, most current players aren't really in favour of it. So if it is being brought in, but players didn't know about it, aren't for it, then what is the main reason why World Rugby have decided to bring it in?

36:33Alfie: That's what I was about to ask you. What's the argument for? Is it ultimately that in theory, it makes it easier to handle, easier to kick, so a more entertaining game? Is that kind of what the people that are deciding this are aiming for?

36:44Elgan: I understand, yeah. It's just as simple as that. It's just that on average, women have smaller hands, therefore a smaller ball will be better. We've seen this debate come up in other sports as well, whether it was a smaller ball in cricket. For a long time, people said that maybe there should be smaller goals for women's football, which hasn't happened, thankfully. But yeah, I think it's just purely down to wanting to improve handling, etc. But Zoe Harrison's argument is it might make the kicking slightly worse, certainly at first for someone who's used to having kicked with a size five their entire life.

37:14Elgan: This Sunday's game will be happening with size five. The trial won't come in until WXV, so there's still quite a few more months to go for that to come about. But currently, players don't seem overly keen on it. The anti-argument also includes grassroots clubs, women's sections who are now going to have to, if this comes in full-time, they'll have to buy new balls. A whole new kit, which aren't readily available. No. Do you often see a 4.5 in the shop? No. Well, they don't exist. Maybe a 3 or a 5. They don't exist other than this trial, as far as I'm aware. And also, wouldn't there be unintended consequences if the ball's easier to kick, that you get more kicking?

37:54And have we all sort of decided that more kicking equals boring, generally? I mean, that's very basic. But you know what I mean? Like, all these law trials, whatever, whether in the men's or the women's game, lead to something else happening that you didn't expect.

38:09Elgan: don't you? Although Zoe Harrison was suggesting that goal kicking with a slightly smaller ball may actually be harder because there's not as much of the ball to wrap a foot around. That's what she said in her remarks. Yeah, to me, it doesn't feel necessary. And instinctively, I think, why tinker with something that I don't think was necessary?

38:27Alfie: Elgin, we'll let you go. Final one, though. Is it going to be another Six Nations title for the Red Roses this weekend? Or are we about to see a really impressive or important win in the recent history of this French team? I think the Red Roses will win narrowly in a high-scoring game. OK. All good stuff will get you on the pod next week. Elgin, appreciate you finding the time to come into the studio to chat to us. Up next, we'll finish this week's episode by looking back on all of the Prem rugby over the weekend and some big news in terms of the investment in Cornish Pirates and at Exeter. So, finishing off the pod with our review of the Prem over the weekend, Certainly some twists and turns in the race for the top four and for home field advantage in the playoffs.

39:11Alfie: But actually, can we start in the champ for just a moment? Because more investment news in the English club game last week. Cornish Pirates have secured investment from an American private equity firm. More excitement news in terms of the investment in clubs at various levels of the pyramid. I think that's quite a fun, nice, positive story. so yeah stonewood capital management two guys from pittsburgh who've invested in the cornish pirates uh they've also got a new owner um who's welsh cornish himself and made his money in pharmaceuticals and together they're kind of building a consortium of backers let's say and injecting seven figure sums is the phrase that's being used about uh the investment they're putting into Cornish Pirates which is not a huge amount of money it's not the source of money that will get them into the prem which we can get on to but it secures the future at least in the medium term of a club that nearly went bust not that long ago they're three weeks away from going bust last year they've got a decision to make I was talking to their CEO Sally Pettifer the other day about whether they remain a very strong and vibrant champ side or they sort of shoot for the stars and go for the Prem.

40:29And I like the way she phrased it, was saying that they were not necessarily convinced about the value proposition of the Prem yet, but we will watch that particular armada and see if it sinks or floats.

40:41Alfie: My sceptical question is, what do a private equity firm have to gain from investing in Cornish Pirates when they're not even sure if they want to push to be a Prem club? I guess there's a couple of things there probably. There's easy, quick cash to make, but you're not going to make millions out of it. But for them, it's small change. buying a champ club is not going to be a lot of money and you can probably turn it around and make it wash its face and then go beyond that quite quickly whereas one of these bigger prem clubs there's a lot more things you need to do there and to be in the prem you need to buy one of these p shares the perpetual shares to be a shareholder in the league which have varying valuations depending on who you talk to i don't think they buy into it if the vision isn't to join the prem so the vision will be to join for the cornish parts to be in the prem so the value for the private equity is that although they'll have to invest whatever the figure is for a p-share that the p-shares were bought out of um worcester and wasps the uh premiership bought their p-shares from the administrator for 9.8 million depending on who you speak to they're now being quoted at 12 20 or even 50 million for a p share and that's just to explain that that's basically like your entry fee to the league now yeah because you once you're in you then get the divvy of of the commercial income and broadcast rights and are a few handouts and yeah so i don't i don't see why any american firm with no connections to Cornish Pirates other than reading an article about them in The Guardian, which I think is actually a really lovely way to be introduced to the Pirates.

42:22And then one of them was on holiday down there and was like, no way, just come back from Cornwall. So I don't think they'd come into it just to exist as a championship club. Because as you say, Alfie, what's the return? Even if the championship was to evolve to become fully professional, which I guess is the ultimate end game, that's a long way off. I think they're in because they want to become a Prem franchise. And therefore, that will require more investment. But the vision is that you then become a shareholder in a league that will grow in value. That's the ultimate aim, I think.

42:54Alfie: So 2029-2030 is when the Prem aims to expand, right? Yeah. Accepting in the intervening period, basically, applications to become one of the expansion teams in order to hopefully bring two into the league in 29-30 to make it a 12. And I mean, I'm just trying to think off the top of my head. So we've got the Cornish Pirates news who say they're not sure if they want to be a Prem Club, but we think maybe that is the way in which they're moving with this investment. We've had the links with the kind of Tom Brady, Birmingham City, Birmingham franchise, Wasps wanting to re-emerge maybe in Kent. A few years off that probably.

43:30Yeah, London Irish in London, I mean somewhere.

43:34Alfie: But is there going to be quite a lot of applications then when we get to this point? I think the first round, no, I don't think enough of those clubs will be ready first round. Will be at that point. The Birmingham plan is a vision, but you won't get that off the ground quickly enough to be applying to join an expanded prem. I think you're probably looking at Worcester and one other, maybe Pirates by then. I wonder what, just from my comment, they didn't say this to me outright, but basically Sally Pettifer, the CEO, was saying they had a 10-year plan that's now a bit more like a five-year plan.

44:11but their facilities are not going to be ready in three years. So I would say they're probably in the second tranche too. But then other sort of possible runners and riders, which will wax and wane are Plymouth Albion, even though they're not in the champ at the moment, Coventry. Obviously, the thorny one is Ealing Trailfinders, who have won every single match in the champ so far and now have to go through some playoffs to just make sure they definitely are the best team in the champ and then won't come up. And then there's others there. there's a possible Yorkshire team if that ever gets off the ground which Charlie's been writing well about which from reading all his pieces to me sounds incredibly complicated and tied up in lots of parochialism and politics which mean it won't happen it's really hard London Irish are an interesting one for me because they they've explored quite heavily the URC and one of their big plans was that they could be a London based URC team so they That's commercially attractive for the URC.

45:11And they would sell their presence off the back of hosting big games against the Irish provinces and against the South African teams. They're like the expat ticket, basically. Because of the expats in the capital. And they believe that they can join the URC. The RFU say they can't, but legal precedent suggests that they could do. And then whoever comes in as an expansion team will have to have spent one year in the championship. The proving ground, they call it. The proving ground, they call it. So Worcester are there. And I think that vision or that plan was really emphasised by Worcester not being ready.

45:51They thought they were going to be ready to come straight up after one year, but they weren't. So there was a recognition that you need time to get your ducks in a row, get your strategies and your structures and your recruitment and all of that in place. and so London Irish if they want to be in the Prem will have to spend a year in the Champ which they didn't want to do initially but they would now but they don't have a stadium so can they operate just by renting out London football grounds that doesn't feel sustainable to me Yorkshire is riven with complications at the moment so it's all so up in the air with loads of the teams I think there's lots of but that's okay if there are two by 2030 that's all they wanted anyway that's all they wanted it'd be annoying think if there was one because then you make the league uneven you go back to bye weeks and all that sort of stuff they don't want an 11 team league so it kind of needs Worcester to almost bring someone with them they don't but they would put up with it for a year or two rather than delay yeah I suspect they'd rather have 11 and then 12 than delay it for 12 yeah they're gonna have to be flexible over it but I think the the the investment coming into Cornish Pirates and And what is due to come into Exeter, now that's been signed off by the supporters and the members and the shareholders, it's all driving this idea that the league's value will increase.

47:17And it's being seen as positive news. And the clubs have to be relied upon to invest it properly. we're entering into a whole new era for prem rugby, for pro rugby in England, and they've got a blueprint for what they want to achieve, but how you actually get there is going to be complicated and controversial at times, I'd say, but also quite fascinating for those of us who can see that rugby could be bigger and more popular and more successful financially than it currently is. Just more vibrant, maybe. More vibrant. Providing that, and I go back to where we've started this pod, it's very different now to the community game.

48:09And it's really important that the community game is looked after properly. These franchises, they're only routes into the communities that are through their academies, which are designed purely to find the next generation of players. They don't have junior teams and vets teams. They don't operate in the same way as, I think, in France. The big clubs all have those routes into the community. You can play for Toulouse under sevens or whatever. Yeah, in England it's going to be different. So the pro game for me feels like it's ready to shoot off in its own direction. now it's I guess it's it's cut the the tie ropes to to the community game by by no longer officially having promotion relegation it's now ready to go off in its own direction which I think can be really exciting and and vibrant to use the word will but you have to remember that the heart and soul is somewhere else

49:04Alfie: yeah it's underpinned by all of that isn't it I'll tell you what with Cornish Pirates though which would be quite exciting if they were to get to a point where they're one of the franchises in the Prem is that derby between them and Exeter like the Devon Cornwall derby would be really good fun would be amazing yeah jam or cream first Rob Baxter was saying on Sunday that Exeter consider Bath to be their big derby but Bath don't consider it the other way I feel like half the teams in the Prem consider Bath to be their big derby who do we pick yeah the jam or cream derby I think there's a fascinating conflict that could arise and we're looking like 15 years into the future here when we're still doing the ruck probably let's hope and still in jobs maybe let's put that one first but if Cornwall Cornish Pirates become at an equivalent level to Exeter Chiefs they're taking a lot of Chiefs catchment area aren't they because they would need to then be an establishment of Cornwall Cornish Pirates' boundaries of academy catchment and so the future Cowan Dickies and Knowles go to the professional Cornish Pirates not to the Chiefs and I think that's interesting because there'll be other versions of that across the country so like if Cov pop up they're nicking into bits of Tigers I guess and Saints and if Wasps come up in Kent that's Sarri's area for example there'll be a lot of like gerrymandering of borders and what schools go into what I would completely change the whole academy structure but I think that's an interesting point generally because there's a vision a wide vision of having 20 professional clubs by 2040 and that's a really exciting vision We don't know how that would be structured, whether you'd have like two elite leagues of 10, one on top of the other with promotion regulation between them and a cup maybe to cross pollinate.

50:51Or they'd be like side by side leagues that are conference style. I think I prefer the first one. but the interesting point that's wider and more sort of a bigger vision thing is is English Rugby Union actually big enough to sustain that number of clubs that number of academies that number of small pockets of the country that do create test stars in each different place not at the moment because at the moment they're not like Exeter Chiefs have got a very good academy but they're using all of Devon and Cornwall for that and just about hitting the same level as other Prem teams whereas if you then halve that yeah and give it to Cornwall and Devon you're splitting off people you're restructuring the the top end I think I mean you will have me say this before but if I was the RFU during this most recent round of of negotiations with the clubs which resulted in the professional game partnership at a time where the clubs had no money and the RFU had all the power if i was the rfu i would have said we're taking the academy in-house we're gonna it's gonna be a central rfu the academy can be we can utilize coaches from these clubs and and links but the academy will be run by the rfu and that way you take out boundaries as being an issue because and you just distribute the players way well then there's always a draft then you could have then you can design whatever funky system you want you can have a draft but what i think it would it would get over that problem of congested areas and and then you leave you know newcastle with the whole of the northeast of england whereas exeter and cornwall are battling over the same group of players but you would also it would also allow that if you've got the class of 2040 and there's a kid from Penzance, a scrum half from Penzance, but Pirates don't need a scrum half and Exeter don't need a scrum half, but Leicester could do, in their depth, they could do with it, then they can select out of the RFU.

52:57And not have to pay, which is the Patman point. So I think it would benefit the kids who at the moment can find themselves in a logjam or at the moment the clubs will select from their academy so exeter will select from their academy the players that they need that that might mean that you get a joe launchery situation at harlequins where he wasn't picked by harlequins because they had two other locks well i think they were picking two from four or something and they picked two they didn't pick joe he goes and they didn't pick george cruz as well and they end up well they end up being you know 50 cap plus england players whereas there'll be another club whose academy they don't have any locks at all but they there's no at the moment there's no cross-pollination so one way to fix your hypothetical is for the rfv to have run the whole academy system and then you have a selection or a draft or whatever it's so that the the right player can go and play at a place where they're needed not either be cut or sit behind a logjam of more senior players in their position that's what i would have done if i was the rfv

54:07Alfie: Yeah, interesting. Well, loads of questions for the future, perhaps, but hopefully the future looks a little bit rosier with all the investment we're seeing and certainly an interesting one for Cornish Pirates. Exeter were another one of those, as you've referenced already, Alex. They approved American investment. We'll see if that gets over the line. But if that can bring us on to the action on the pitch over the weekend. Good week for Exeter. Good week for Exeter. Smashed bar. Good weekend for the Prem, I think, and the race for the top four. Massive win for Saris. Big win for Exeter. Win for Tigers over Northampton as well.

54:36Alfie: So home field advantage is on the cards for them as well. It wasn't that many weeks ago, was it, that we were saying, this is all kind of done already, isn't it? Well, I was thinking that. If you're sitting at the Prem, and if you're the Machiavellian designer of the results, it's been perfect over the last three weeks, hasn't it, at the top end? Let's ignore Newcastle getting 70 put on them by the second-worst team in the league. but about as you said about three weeks ago before we broke for Europe we were like wrong results go the wrong way here this top four's done everyone's settled already in mid-April and now with Bath losing a couple Tigers winning a couple Chiefs winning the one they needed to win Sarri's winning a couple Bristol sort of dropping out but staying in touch it feels like they've finally got a top six and you could have it's building also to two shootouts on the last day yeah yeah that actually mean something yeah bath leicester for a home semi-final and we know what happens if you finish third in the pre you never win the league don't go anywhere it's a graveyard slot my favorite stat every we get it out every year i love that a couple of times every year and and then the race for fourth you know you could you could on the last day have extra saris in a shootout for the last So are we saying that Jeopardy is back?

55:53We've had a no Jeopardy Prem and now Jeopardy's back. Welcome back, Jeopardy. It's been a good weekend and it has been exciting. We were at a point where the Prem was not far off from being done. When Saros has lost to Bath in the Champions Cup quarterfinal, I thought that was their season. But actually, I was then putting 85 on sale and watching that going like, well, it's a good result, but it doesn't really matter. And then they go and win two more and you go, oh, right, well, here we go. It was just the way that Mark McCall was a bit like, well, we're now going to use the rest of this season, play some young, just get some premiership minutes into them so that I can best hand over what I've got to Brendan Venter for next year.

56:40And now they're thinking, and the result didn't go their way at Sandy Park. They would have wanted Barth to win that to keep Exeter close. Closer to them, yeah. but they're still within striking distance with a couple of rounds left and it would be it's what the league probably needs is for the last round for there to be two games with I mean at least two let's be honest like two's not many out of five but that's all they're likely to get really a shootout for because wouldn't it be great if you're Bath Leicester for second place knowing that a week later they'll probably play each other again but potentially the other way around at whichever location yeah and I was so I was looking at the sort of the remaining games of the running because I think it's interesting to sort of see everyone's who got who situation

57:26Alfie: it's interesting how those some of those fixtures take on a totally different complexion because of the results as well so Saints we think are going to be pretty sorted despite having being tuned up by Tigers and that was alarming in itself but great for I mean wow what a day if you're a Tigers fan that was and feisty and fun it's so classic of this season isn't it like two title contenders but if you're not on it you You get smashed. You get smashed. But they actually got physically beasted as well. And like Tigers looked so angry through the whole thing, like in the best way. You've got like the nicest blokes in their team looking like Rottweilers, like Freddie Stewart shouting at people and pushing people over and stuff.

58:01I quite like that. It was quite fun. The game needs more of that. But yeah, so Saints have got Bristol at home and then they've got what you would probably think are two five-pointers, Gloucester and Quinns, although both are away and Gloucester have revived. Gloucester's home I think for Saints sorry home yes and then Bath have got Newcastle at home so they'll jump back on the horse that's fine and then Bristol and Tigers so they've got now looking like a tough end they're not going to drop out of the top four but they might lose second place and then imagine if Bath end this season without anything no trophy nothing if they miss that on home away semi lose it well for road season's over can't trust that process can you

58:43Alfie: but it is amazing though because again like three weeks ago i was you're probably looking at what all the team's fixtures but like bristol's fixtures for example and you think oh they've got to play northampton and bath but actually northampton and bath might have home field wrapped up by then and it'd be a good time to play them whereas now they're coming up against northampton who've just been embarrassed against their local rivals who need to make sure they get a home semi-final bath who've dropped off so they're going to be playing those two teams when they'll be fielding their their strongest sides ashton gate yeah i know but so yeah i just tear up in bs3 as Ellis Genge would say and then they got Sale on the last day who won't be playing for anything Bristol this is but then they have a fairly ropey record away to Sale anyway yeah so Tigers have got Sale away Exeter and then Bath so that yeah that Tigers-Bath game on the final day looks mega doesn't it the Tigers-Exeter penultimate weekend and then Exeter yeah so they've got Quinns at Twickenham which looks like it might be a fairly sporadic crowd for that big summer kick off yeah also the weather's not going to be that nice either or everyone wearing these Hawaiian shirts and freezing cold then they've got Tigers and then Saris so they've got their fate in their own hands but with big big games to play interesting fixtures and then finally Saris Gloucester-Quins could easily get 10 points out of those and then it's Exeter which will still probably be a shootout because at the moment the max points Saris can get to 62 and Exeter already on 54 four in fourth so you kind of feel like saris needs to just basically get every point there don't they the other thing as well which i'll mention which i kind of apologize for this because it's another bristol point which i genuinely i hope there is actual value in this rather than me just being from bristol but look at the bonus points saris bonus points 15 extra bonus points 16 leicester 13 bath 14 northampton 12 bristol nine same as gloucester which i think could be a real factor when it comes to the end of the season bristol have won more games then they They've won two more games in Saracens.

1:00:43Alfie: They've won a game more than Exeter, but they're languishing a fair way. Well, they're just about ahead of Sarri's, but they're a fair way behind Exeter at the moment. Well, they've actually won more games than Exeter. Yeah. But they're below them because of the bonuses. Yeah, yeah. I think there's a bit of an irony to Bristol's season where they were at their best when they had their thinnest squad. Yeah. Post Six Nations. They had 17 people out around Christmas and some of them have dribbled back and they've got worse or their results have got worse. Yeah, no, totally. I mean, that game against, the one in Cardiff against Quinns was a really bad one, but they've been post-Six Nations that hasn't been good for them, whereas you look at some other teams and they've probably kicked on.

1:01:20Alfie: Time is realistically against us here, lads. There's a lot of different ground in that, isn't there? From the Borthwick Review, Cornish Pirates Investment, Women's Six Nations with Elgin, and then trying to wrap up the latest in the Prem. Do you guys know your movements yet? I'm doing Saints-Brizzle on Friday. Okay, nice. So that'll swing something. I think I'm going to go to Gloucester Saracens because they will be they will have to respond to what happened at the Harlequins game so if Exeter lose Saracens can close right up on them to potentially within two points and really put the pressure on and if Exeter win and Saracens win then they're still on their on their heels I think that's probably the I think that's probably the game nice well at least we've got a real top four race that you're able to have questions over over what games you want to go to.

1:02:12Alfie: Will, Alex, really appreciate it. As always, thank you to all of you for listening, for watching. If you've watched on YouTube as well, if you want to send us an email, the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Before you go, we just want to shine a light on the great work Allianz is doing behind the scenes to support the game we all love. We talk a lot on The Ruck about premiership stars and England internationals, but every one of those journeys starts somewhere, usually on a freezing morning at a local club with volunteers, hand-me-down kit and a belief that rugby can genuinely change lives.

1:02:47Alfie: Allianz gets how important those places are, which is why they're launching a special edition of the Allianz Future Fund just for Ruck listeners. They're offering grants of£500 to£1 ,000 to help local clubs become more inclusive, more sustainable and better set up for the next generation. Whether it's new kit, safer facilities, or giving young players the space to grow into tomorrow's heroes, this is a real chance to make a difference. Sign up for the Allianz Future Fund, nominate your club, and help support the grassroots heart of the game. Business is booming. But you know what really helped?

1:03:27Alfie: Xero, the accounting platform for small businesses. I used to think unpaid bills were just part of it. Ugh. But batch payments? Wow. Automated accounts payable? Even better. All in one place? That's a big one. And I can keep track from my phone while I get the job done. No bills in sight. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply.