Why is Maro Itoje on the bench?

0:15Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Coming to you once again, as we always do through international periods, on a Thursday, team news day for England as we look ahead to the weekend. loads to get into as ever i'm alfie reynolds alongside me once again at the england training base alex low all right alex hello good yeah loads to talk about in this england team it's just like last week isn't it where once again there's loads to unpack i think in the england squad yeah and also joining us back by popular demand i'm gonna say elgin alderman how are you

0:44Elgan: you received the emails from my mum and dad i see good yes first time on since the women's rugby world cup very refreshed i say refreshed i've been driving all over wales the last few days which readers of the times will be able to read about very soon but yes re-energized by a day here at Pennyhill Park. Tell us what you've done in Wales. So with Wales coming up against Argentina obviously the WIU have been meeting with representatives of the four regions this week hanging over this autumn campaign the news that the plan not quite two teams like they suggested but possibly going down to three teams from four by 2027 so that's hanging over again everything Wales are doing so I've just been driving around I've been up to Bala in North Wales I've been to the Llanduvian, Llanelli, been to Cardiff as well, just to hear from some people at the grassroots level because that's where Wales are really going to turn it around.

1:31Elgan: Lots of talented players, but they don't quite make it up to the top when you've got such a small country. You really can't be as inefficiently run as Wales has for the past 30 years when they've been reckoning with so many questions. So just try to add a bit of grassroots meat to the bone and hopefully there's some stuff in there for people to consider. Special report from Wales. Sounds good.

1:49Alfie: Yeah, look forward to reading it. Good one for the expense department at the Times as well, I'd imagine, that one. when they receive all of those. We'll come on to Wales, Argentina. Massive game for Wales as they kick off their autumn campaign. Also on France, South Africa. Elgin's going to be there in Paris on Saturday night. Let's start off with England-Fiji, though. So we're up here at the England training base. They've named their match day 23 to take on Fiji. Seven changes from the team that beat the Wallabies. You've got Mara Otoje on the bench. So Ellis Genge is going to be leading the team from the start.

2:22Alfie: Finn Smith is at fly half Chandler Cunningham South starts at eight we'll get into all those different bits and bobs Alex what what interests you the most when you look at this England team uh there are there's a few different areas that interest me I mean the one which we didn't discuss before we hit record Alfie is Fraser Dingwall was now vice captain of England for this week which is a sort of snuck up I think probably on him as much as anyone else there's two or three really interesting areas I think Chandler Cunningham South starting at eight for the first time in a test match he's been a mainstay of Borthwick teams he likes his his dynamism his physicality he's like he's such a aggressive carrier and a rapidly improving line out forward when Tom Willis announced he was leaving Saracens to go to Bordeaux-Begler and Borthwick decided to drop him immediately from the England squad because he's unavailable for the Six Nations for the World Cup it was costing England their first choice number eight but they're really the only one the only ball carrier who is proven as a number eight in tight areas like fighting through those those tight quarters as a carrier and that's what Charlie Cunningham South has been picked to do in this game Emika Ileone is another player who both it really likes who carries in a similar way injured his shoulder just before the autumn so so Cunningham South has a chance here to fill a gap that's been left by Tom Willis in this squad we know what Ben Earl can do as a dynamic eight like quick really good in the open spaces incredibly quick Henry Pollock came on at eight cut from a similar cloth as an athlete cunning himself is different different mentality loves loves the contact goes looking to smash people when he's got the ball and he doesn't have the ball um and and that's that's his opportunity in this back row now to sort of fill the the void that Tom Willis has has left elsewhere I think 13 is really interesting my sense from being up here a few times this week is that Tommy Freeman was penciled in to start again at 13 until Tom Roebuck injured his ankle in training on Tuesday which has led to Freeman switching back to the wing and and Olly Lawrence coming back in at outside centre first cap since he ruptured his Achilles against Italy back in in the Six Nations I think England would have looked at they've obviously got Henry Arundel on the bench I don't think they quite trust him defensively against Fiji to start this game which is why they feel there's a stronger balance there going back to a combination that's been used before by England of Dingwall, Lawrence and Freeman on one wing and Favre Boswell on the other but with Henry Arundel to come on and inject this I mean there's a really pacey bench with Pollock on there as well quite exciting so I think that 13 selection is interesting and the 8 selection for me is interesting too.

5:01Elgan: On the subject of Dingwall as well the rapidly the inflating number of captains and vice-captains in the 23th on Saturday. You've got a starting captain and a bench captain, and then two starting vice-captains and one bench vice-captain. So there's plenty of leaders in the green. Yeah, it feels a bit excessive. It feels a bit like a PR issue that they didn't want Maro to be seen to be dropped as captain. So suddenly he's a co-captain off the bench with Genge, and then a myriad of vices along the way, none of whom will have captained the team.

5:30Alfie: Based off this week and last week, Alex, do you think that we're quite clearly seeing an England team that are obviously trying to win now? But again, like we were speaking about this time last week, building for the future. And does that maybe bring us on to Maratoji on the bench? Not that they are moving on from Maratoji, but I mean more in terms of not having your captain start about developing leadership in the team. I think it's maybe less about leadership and more about second row options. okay yeah um so marrow has not been on the bench for england since the autumn of 2017 which was on the back of a lions tour which he started on the bench in the first test in new zealand and then became the star of of wellington um he then that autumn england were england has struck a deal to manage their lions so he didn't play in the first game of that autumn and bench second game he hasn't been on the bench for england in eight years he's not been dropped to the bench i think this is more an opportunity to give Alex Coles time in the second row who if you look at England's lock options behind Chessham and Itoji obviously they've got George Martin who is recovering from a shoulder problem and is so abrasive that you kind of wonder whether his style of game means there's every chance most seasons he's going to be recovering from something those three are their premier locks if they're all fit and then behind that he's looking at another he's looking at Alex Coles who had a brilliant season, I thought, for Northampton Saints.

6:55Had a really strong tour of Argentina. Charlie Ewells went on that tour. They keep talking about trying to get Kapoku back from Racing. It feels like he's trying to grow... Same point, he's trying to grow depth in every position. And if you don't have George Martin in the 23, there's a bit of a drop-off right now in the second row. So I think that's more to it than leadership.

7:20Elgan: All of these locks as well are people with experience of playing six. So you've almost got a back five of a pack that can play almost anywhere, just about across the entire starting and bench options. I think that's a really good point. So he plays in this, like last week, it was Zatoji and Chessom with Earl at eight. That certain style of eight. If you play Coles in the second row, he's more of a six. He's played a lot at six, slightly lighter carrier, I'd say. So therefore it's reinforced for the coming himself at eight. So it is definitely an element of not just picking a second row combination and a back row combination, but picking a back five combination so that you've now got, I think Cunningham South would now be counted as a genuine line-out option.

8:01Obviously, Guy Pepper took a lot of balls in the line-out last week, and then you've got Chessham and Coles as well. I imagine that's an area that England should be far superior to Fiji in.

8:11Alfie: I think the fact that they've stuck with Pepper is quite telling as well, that he's someone they're investing in and with a real eye to the future. He massively impressed them last week in certain areas that don't always catch the eye. Like, I mean, Curry came on and just was smashing people and was putting huge pressure at the breakdown and really leading that intensity in the last 20 minutes as England kind of wraps up the game. Chatting to people around here earlier this week and some of Guy Peppers' contributions that really impressed them were things like there was a series of double tackles.

8:42Double tackles is something that they've brought into this defensive system. You've been writing about this, haven't you? Yeah. There was a series of three in a row. The first one was Guy Pepper and Jamie George. And then as they were getting up, the second one happened. And then the third one was Guy Pepper and Jamie George. That kind of repeat work. And one of the other elements of this defence that is critical, because it's still, it's not the gung-ho blitz that England were playing with in 2024, where it was just, you don't have to think, you just fly in at everything and just cause chaos, try and force some uncertainty, some drop balls, and then try and profit from that.

9:18It's still high pressure, quick line speed. They're putting more demands on players to read situations. And there was a moment against Australia where Valentini made a line break because England got their spacing slightly wrong. He got through, but Pepa read it really quickly and scragged him around the back of the neck on his shirt, which forced Valentini to pass it. Now, if Pepa hadn't read that, Australia are through with a three on two and we know how deadly they are finishing. Those moments that Pepa contributed on top of the line-out were super important for England and they were the things that the England coaches have been looking at this week and been really impressed with so I wasn't surprised at all that he he's been retained at six because he's he's a player who came on this on the scene at Newcastle early before before anyone heard of Henry Pollock and then Pollock is on this rapid rise but Pep is a guy who Borthwick and Wigglesworth who now runs a defence have been watching for a long time and

10:11Alfie: what he did last week really impressed them I think it says a lot Elgin doesn't it about where England find themselves that they are currently in this position where they to go back to the question I asked earlier are developing now but also winning now like they've come quite a long way I feel in 12 months to have gone from November last year where they were losing games the pressure was on it was doom and gloom they didn't have the strength on the bench to come on and be able to see games out to where we find ourselves now that actually often international rugby that you don't have much chance to take stock but if you do I think we're seeing an

10:45Elgan: England team that have come quite a long way well Alex obviously is here regularly throughout Six Nations autumns I come here a bit more sporadically because I've got a bit more of a roaming brief but today first time I've seen Steve Baltic speak for a while and it certainly seemed it just seemed very jovial compared to maybe recent times I've seen him which I think kind of does give off a bit of a vibe of maybe how they are they are feeling a bit more comfortable in in what's going on that they're not going to be grilled relentlessly about you know was it seven consecutive tier one defeats or whatever it was we were grilling maybe you know this time last year so to me that certainly seemed quite happy about what they're doing at the moment and the results are fair

11:23Alfie: enough in that regard let's talk about fly half because it's always a discussion whoever gets picked at 10 i've really enjoyed it today i spoke to finn smith i spoke to george ford last week and i really enjoyed speaking to both of them about the competition for the fly half place but also how they work together and how they view it and the different options because it isn't Finn against Marcus and Marcus against George in the way that maybe people view it externally Alex why Finn Smith do you think this weekend I think England put in so much prep work for this series that Steve Borthick had effectively as close as he could do picked his first two teams before they even came into camp so he's had to tweak it a little bit obviously with Roebuck being injured i don't i'm not sure steward would have started at 15 this week anyway you think it would have been marcus smith for the simple reason that fiji don't play an aerial game in anywhere close i mean caleb months is the kind of game managing 10 that fiji have always needed he's not it's not like top top class 10 but he he can put them around the field but they they won't be testing england's fullback in the way that australia do and a lot of other tier one nations do.

12:29Marcus Smith played fullback in the 23 World Cup against Fiji, really for that reason. So I think a lot of what Steve has done with this team was planned before they came into camp. So therefore, as for the 10, I feel it's probably he's given them both a game. Maybe it's a shootout to see who starts against the All Blacks next week. It'll be more scientific than that. It won't just be about who played better. I think as it happened, the way the Australia game went and with the weather, George Ford is just a master at reading how to play those conditions and actually switch up what England were trying to do, which wasn't really working, and finding a way that did work.

13:10I really like Finn Smith. He plays the game differently to Marcus. He's a bit flatter to the line, quite physical, and then you get back in that combination of Northampton at 9, Northampton at 10, Northampton at 12, and then Northampton at 14 on the right wing with Tommy Freeman. So, you know, you're not losing much if you're bringing a British and Irish Lion 10 into your team and forward playing the sort of attack coach role in camp this week.

13:36Elgan: We can see the two Smiths coming into the attacking shape in different ways. I was at the Harlequins Newcastle game where Marcus Smith wore 10 and Jared Evans wore 12 for Harlequins, which isn't something Harlequins do very often, that two fly half approach. But often Jared Evans would be the fly half and Marcus Smith would be the one coming around the back for the outside channel. So we're probably more expecting to see him forming that type of role wearing 15 on his back. But we can obviously, of course, see them dovetailing where he goes in first. And Finn comes around the back, but maybe Marcus is probably more suited to that in the wider channels.

14:08It's definitely a selection, an attack-minded selection, because of the shapes that they can run and the combination they can run as the two playmakers. I don't feel that Marcus is really in the conversation to be starting at 10 for England unless there's an injury. like I think his role in this squad now is as it was on the Lions tour really useful player to have who can play 10 can start at 15 but I don't think I think he's third choice but so therefore it's not like a three-way race at the moment for that 10 jersey for me it's it's Finsmith and George Ford and I suspect it'll stay that way through to the World Cup and Marcus is just gonna have to accept that he has a he doesn't have the role in this England squad that he wanted and he maybe thought he was destined for at one point but that sport that's such an interesting dynamic though

14:54Alfie: isn't it with this england team the whole marcus smith at 15 thing yeah and being a top top quality fly half but we're talking about it with england thing yeah well don't you know he's third choice he's probably more there because he can play 15 as well like it's such a well that's how i mean yeah it got him on the lions tour no he wasn't on the lions tour as a 10 and it'll get him in a world cup squad and it will yeah yeah absolutely and given all the work that's being done in this squad to develop versatility um and it's that's going to become a word that we get slightly tired of hearing but it's actually we're getting tired of it already after but it's legit yeah because we all know that when you get to world cup you need look how look at south africa playing playing flankers at hooker in the world cup final like you need you can't you don't have enough players so the more players you you have who can who can be very good in multiple positions the better set you are you don't want an entire squad of it but if you're not in the starting 15 and sometimes even if you are but if you're not in the starting 15 you you've got to be able to contribute and Marcus definitely does that and he'll be in the World Cup squad as long as he doesn't you know throw his toys out the pram and sign for R360 he'll be in the World Cup squad he got on the Lions tour he's a prodigiously talented player but he's now up against Finn Smith who's overtaken him and George Ford who just has so much experience and game knowledge and understanding of what buttons to push and what strings to pull you know he's he's up against it I don't think playing Harlequins helps him at the moment either we had that conversation many pods ago about if he moved to Leicester it might actually help him internationally different style of rugby different type of club different role for him to play but um yeah fascinating yeah it's really and marcus smith is the sort of bloke as well that he's such a good bloke he's such a team player that you'll never fully know but i would just imagine deep down privately you must look at it and think i'm not getting a look in here at my main position i'm continually having to play fullback it's a quite a fascinating dynamic really finish off for england i think it is worth mentioning henry arundel's return to the england match day 23 went away to racing 92 has come back has looked good for bath admittedly in a bath team that more or less are swatting most people aside but he's back alex but and that bench i mean we're talking about gas like and super super skills and super strengths of these players arundel's pace you know is he i think he's the quickest in camp must be the quickest in camp i'd imagine so um because radwan's not there quick in the prep yeah yeah radwan isn't there and so so england will try and find situations late in the game where they can just get him some space and steve worth it was was describing a moment in training today where he found space where there was no space and suddenly he's gone and no one could catch him but i feel like with arundel the the i know that's the stuff that is super exciting and as we've seen from him previously when he has played for england he's absolute x-factor the thing that i'm intrigued seeing him back at international level is all the other stuff yes because that rounded is exactly yeah and that was that was the that's where i'm like i'd love to sit down and talk to him about his time in Paris because it feels like it it went wrong quite early for him Lancaster wasn't picking him at Rassing he ended up playing with a sevens team and now he's come to Bath he's straight in the team scoring tries but does look a bit more of a rounded player than he did and forget he played fullback at London Irish you know he didn't even train at fullback this week

18:20Elgan: he's only in here as a wing at the moment the 90 meter try he scored against too long which was his breakout moment that was yeah that was from fullback yeah so there is a footballer there he was just a raw unbelievable athlete and a couple of years on you know I will be fascinating to see but I think at this level we are seeing a more rounded player just not quite rounded enough to start in this game but as I mentioned earlier if you look at that that bench that so last week England brought on five Lions forwards at once off the bench all in their as we said they're kind of gleaming white shirts like a proper flex real big statement at that point in the game this bench has got experience on it, Jamie George, Maratoji, Tom Curry, they're going to bring, Jamie George topped the tackle count last week, Tom Curry was like fifth, he only played for 20, 29 minutes, just went around smashing people all day, but then you've got Ashok Poku Forjore, rising star of the England front row, powerful scrimmager but incredible athlete, great feet, doesn't mind a line break himself as a prop henry pollock coming off the bench gas energy spark henry arundel coming off the bench with all the same things like you're gonna hit the hit the sort of 50 55 minute mark and england are gonna bring on some pretty exciting players off that bench do you

19:37Alfie: think we're good do you think this is something we're gonna see every game now for england i know we spoke a lot about it last week the five lines that came off the bench the experience and quality there do you think yeah like every game now for england we're gonna be looking at the bench and when i look at that and you see maritoji and tom curry amongst the replacements i'm like what yeah it's not just i mean it is england but it it's what every team are trying to get to because as much as you've got sort of certain um safety campaigners talking about reducing the number of players on the bench or finding ways to create more fatigue uh within the game those rules aren't changing and they're certainly not changing in the immediate term so coach it's the game within the game you you tee yourself up for an hour and then you bring on the next wave and it's it's a it's an area that South Africa although coaches have been talking about it's a 23-man game for a long time it's an area that South Africa mastered really before anyone else and now that that idea is taking hold and England weren't in a position as you were we were talking last bit earlier about last year and when you're losing games you just didn't have quite the depth which they're now growing but also the circumstances were tricky to be fielding teams like this they couldn't field a team like this 12 months ago when they were in this losing run so winning really helps because it gives confidence it gives coaches confidence to to put a marrow on the bench for this week but it is the game now at the highest level all the other nations will be desperately trying to grow enough depth so they can field a 23 where you can inject something new and at least there's no drop in quality in players when you hit the hour mark and you bring the bench on and that bench could even come in and add something new a whole new dimension to the game which is what the box have done what england are trying to build here all right good stuff let's leave england there we'll have a quick break and then when we come back we'll look ahead to all the other action coming up this weekend especially france south africa and wales against argentina

21:32Alfie: elgin let me come to you first given that this week you've been driving all over wales and getting into the the grassroots of the game and the future of rugby in the country how big is

21:43Elgan: Argentina this weekend in defining Wales's autumn well Wales go into the match on a one game unbeaten run which isn't something Wales have been able to say for a very long time after finally banishing the 18 defeats in a row obviously there is so much uncertainty going to yet another autumn campaign and the requirement of getting a win in Cardiff which hasn't been seen for such a long time I I suppose people are more likely looking at the Japan game in the second weekend as the best chance of that. But also, Argentina, brilliant team, but they are so mercurial that they seem more likely to beat the Allbacks than to beat England B.

22:17Elgan: So you just never know what's going to happen against Wales in Cardiff. So an ideal situation is obviously to win that first one, then beat Japan. And then I don't think many people expect them to beat the Allbacks or South Africa in the last two rounds. But everyone's very interested to see what Steve Tandy can do. He's talked about how recent Wales teams, while they've been losing, the worst thing is that you haven't been able to tell what they're trying to do on the field. They look so muddled. So he wants it to look like the people watching. And we don't know how many people are going to be in the stadium.

22:48Elgan: Certainly a few weeks ago, ticket sales were pretty poor for that first game against Argentina. He wants people to be able to see what Wales are trying to do. So we can't wait to find out on Sunday exactly what that is. I was going to ask about the mood in the stadium because you see talk of boycotts and obviously it's such a long run of defeats, the kind of uncertainty around the whole game in Wales. You know, we've been in the Principality Stadium where it is electric and it's spine tingling and how loud and passionate it is. And my fear on the weekend is that it will be flat and quiet and edgy and anxious and it won't be all the things that help lift Wales.

23:28What's your sense?

23:29Elgan: The autumnal games, sometimes Cardiff has struggled for quite a few years, even predating the recent results. The most galling thing about losing to Italy for that wooden spoon or the 68-14 defeat by England for the last wooden spoon decider is just, the response has almost been a shrug just because they've been expecting those things to happen. Hopefully, what you'll see now is, if Argentina take lead, you won't just see a shrug of, oh, well, that's what we're expecting to happen. And obviously that is a real concern. What you want is a bit of edge, a bit of people willing Wales over the line.

24:01Elgan: But yeah, like I say, if it is a low crowd, which I think most people do have baked in, they need that win, I think, to get the stadium back alive. We don't often see any sort of booing or antagonism in the crowd, but that indifference is almost more worrying to a degree. Yeah, the apathy is worse. Yeah, almost worse than being angry about it.

24:22Alfie: does it what what i'm trying to work out wells because i've heard a lot of people as you suggest there say that we expect them to beat japan but then outside of that you don't expect them to win those games and i get it in terms of argentina a good side all blacks and spring box we can put to one side given where wales are at the moment but i kind of think if that does go to form then and what people expect three defeats and one win against japan almost doesn't feel like enough for wales for me at the moment and i know they're in a really bad spot but i think that's why i think this weekend is so important because i think two wins two defeats and your defeats are the all blacks and spring box you can build on that but i feel like they're almost stuck in the mud if it's one win against japan and then three defeats and context is everything if they all of a sudden happen to push the spring box or the all blacks but still do you know what i mean but yeah i feel

25:07Elgan: like that's why this weekend is just so important yeah there's a situation where they managed to win this weekend and even in the autumn when wayne pivak's tenure ended with that awful defeat by the Wallabies they managed to beat Argentina at that time if they win two games and there's just a sense of fun in the defeats by the All Blacks in South Africa that will be viewed as a really successful autumn that's the sort of autumn campaign that Wales have had even in the first Warren Gatlin tenure when they were challenging for grand slams regularly so that would be viewed as a real uptick in fortunes but at the same time going on in the background until for the next two years will be we still don't really know what professional rugby in Wales looks like yeah it's

25:46Alfie: It's a funny one for me because I totally get it on why people are saying, well, it's probably going to be one win. But I just feel that's not it doesn't feel like enough. That's not enough to create positivity and moving forward. Let's get on to. So, Alex, we love our job and we're very lucky to be at Twickenham in the weekend. How much would you rather be in Paris?

26:07Well, Elgin is in Paris. Yeah, I would love to be. I mean, I'd love to be there because it is it's the game of the autumn. France, South Africa.

26:15Alfie: Yeah. I mean, we had Stephen Kitts off on Monday's pod, which was great to chat to him and look back on the last time they faced in that incredible World Cup quarterfinal. And actually something that is probably worth emphasising here, I think, which links to what you were saying, Alex, post-match on Saturday. We touched upon it with Slotty and Will at the beginning of Monday's pod and international rugby in danger of becoming saturated. Isn't France, the Springboks, such a good example of the importance of scarcity in international rugby? 100 % yeah massively and you know the context is tricky because of global seasons yeah of course teams but that's always been the case and it's that doesn't take the edge off this game for me they're introducing the nation's cup next year putting a structure around all these games the idea that we need to get to a point at the end of november where the best team in europe can play the best team in the southern hemisphere to be crowned the best team in the world that year in a kind of cross hemisphere challenge thing you don't need any of that construct to feel that that's what this game is you know it's the best team in europe it's the best team outside of europe with skill and depth and you know there's there's the there's the possibility of just like razzmatazz from both teams now which is what makes it so compelling because south africa can have evolved their game to the point now where they can they could beat try and beat france up or they could try and outskill them and france are in in the same kind of mindset and you know there are yeah there are too many games that don't mean anything and i don't think test rugby needs a construct around it for a test match to mean something if it's the two two teams at full strength going hammer and tonguing each other and that's what this one is it's the best it's the best for the

27:57Elgan: best it's like what i was talking saying earlier about how it's not a new phenomenon that sometimes Wales can feel a bit apathetic about autumnal games. It's because you do almost get bored of seeing, as sacrosanct is to say, there's a bit bored of seeing the All Blacks and the Springboks in town every autumn, which does happen a lot. But France, because they never do a fourth autumn game, because their tours to New Zealand and South Africa are fewer and further between, and they're often not full strength anyway, it means that it does feel like those games are bigger events for that reason.

28:29Alfie: How much are you looking forward to it on the weekend, Elgin? I mean, that is just mouth-watering.

28:34Elgan: Very much so. I was scary looking at the French team earlier. Obviously, they're still without Dupont because he hasn't returned quite yet, although he's been on the pitch at Toulouse with a big jersey announcing his new deal until 2031. So he's still the biggest show in town. But you've still got Nolan Lagarec. You've got Antimac, who missed the World Cup quarterfinal, of course. So he'll have a chance at fly half. Gregory Aldrete, normally the number two icon behind Dupont. sort of out of favour at the moment and Mikael Guillard starting at number eight instead. Aldridge's been playing for La Rochelle last weekend and then out wide again, you've got Louis Bielbierre and Damien Pena who get everyone out of their seats.

29:10Elgan: So even without Dupont, still a France team absolutely loaded and I was there for the last time I was in Paris was top 14 final, which was a 9pm Saturday kickoff and that went to extra time and it was more than 30 points each. So hopefully exactly the same again.

29:25Alfie: Get ready for a late one. another 11 30 p.m finish perhaps no i don't think they'll need extra time this time because there's no trophy up for grabs yeah well the thing with these games in particular i think is good fun from a springbok point of view is it's when we actually get to see the springbok first team because they rotate so much throughout the whole year there's only a couple of games you know when they play the all blacks away this match that we know we're getting south africa's number one kind of 23 injury permitting and I think the thing that this season is the 10 jersey Sasha Feinberg and Gomazulu has so clearly come through this year he's clearly I think the the shining light with what of what South Africa have done this year of him coming through in that 10 jersey and Elgin I think it says an awful lot that he is the guy that starts this

30:14Elgan: weekend yeah I mean the we talk so much about the bomb squad and all those things but for some time now so that for has been an all-court threat where they can hammer you up front but then they also have you know fly half the people are always quick to compare things but people are already saying triple court threat in the style of dan carter or something along those lines with we find but um gomazulu so yeah just uh it should be humding hopefully it lives up to the expectations that

30:40Alfie: everyone is throwing upon it so really looking forward to uh france south africa let's finish off scotland new zealand speaking about this on monday's pod but massive game for the scots we're just talking about wales and it being an autumn defining game i mean that is the all blacks coming to town for them isn't it yeah not beating them there seems to be an air of confidence north of the border that this could be could be the day not sure i remember i think was it three years ago

31:09Elgan: and that's what cardiff felt like then they shipped 50 odd points i was gonna say i've been to enough Wales New Zealand games in Cardiff where I mean and why not you you spend the week building yourself up and this could be the day and then bam the All Blacks come and sting you in the first 10 minutes and that's that but would I mean it'd be awesome for Scotland that you know I they flatter to deceive Scotland they they looking back at their autumn record of late you know they are capable of picking off a big win against somebody and then so then that then feeds the enthusiasm and the optimism into the six nations that maybe this is the year for Scotland in the six nations and then they flattered to deceive and they finish with three and three three and two record or two and three records kind of rinse and repeat that that storyline i think argentina is their best chance of a rugby championship win this autumn but man if they were you know finn russell could go and conjure something magical against the all blacks and this was to be the day then it would just be it'd be awesome but if anyone wants to get themselves in the mood we've got a very good fun read from mark palmer back with jim pollock who played in the 25 all draw at murray field in 1983 that'll get everyone's appetite ready for that good stuff uh so it's gonna be

32:18Alfie: a great weekend of rugby also ireland japan that we haven't mentioned that kicks things off then scotland new zealand england fiji italy against australia which actually in its own right is a it's a pretty fascinating game we haven't mentioned that yeah exactly um and then it's France South Africa and then Wales Argentina on Sunday so loads for us to look back on on Monday's pod we will be with you from Twickenham following the England Fiji game on Saturday night as well so loads more pods coming your way Elgin enjoy the trip to Paris I'm not jealous at all yeah I will okay I'll have fun don't you worry and Alex I'll see you at Twickenham see you there good stuff

32:55Elgan: appreciate you all listening we'll be back with you on Saturday