Will Spain host the World Cup? Plus England’s European struggles and the Red Roses lose

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2:05Alfie: Hello, hello. Welcome, everyone. This is The Ruck, the rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. I'm Alfie Reynolds. Great to have you with us. Coming up today, the Champions Cup is up and running for another year. Some great matches, but not a great weekend for the English clubs. The Red Roses, and this isn't a drill, have finally lost a match and Spain has launched its bid to host the 2035 Rugby World Cup. The Spanish Federation's president, Juan Carlos Martín Hanson, is going to join us. Looking forward to that in the company of Will Kelleher. Hello, mate. You all right? I'm very well.

2:42How are you doing? I'm good, yeah. I had a weekend where I wasn't writing, but I did watch. I took my partner, who's a Bath fan, to the Bath-Montpelier game, being like, we're locals now. That would be good fun. Nice day out. And then, oh, it didn't quite go to plan, did it?

2:56Alfie: She was slightly disappointed then, as were everyone else, or most people within the wreck as well. Yeah, well, not a great weekend, as we say generally, for a lot of the English clubs, but there we go. Also, alongside Will, Elgin Olderman.

3:06Elgan: All right, Elgin? Hello, yes. It's been quite a busy weekend for me. I've been keeping abreast of the Red Roses, as you mentioned there at the top from afar. Also a bit of the Rugby League World Cup, which kicked off in quite an exciting fashion on Thursday. And then Old Deer Park as a spectator on Saturday for London Welsh's 45-0 defeat by Aindel. We won't talk about that. And then Northampton Saints yesterday in the final game of the Champions Cup when an English team finally won a Champions Cup game on the weekend. I know this is a rugby union pod, but maybe you don't need to do it live, Elgin, but someone needs to explain to me the rugby league system for the World Cup because it's mad, isn't it?

3:41There's one group with some teams and there's two with others.

3:43Elgan: I think I've got it nailed now. So there's one group of four, which is a bog standard round-robin pool. Then there's two pools of three that are combined into one table. you play the three teams from the other pool and the top two teams from that combined grouping go through. That's more complicated than the Champions Cup, isn't it?

4:00Alfie: Which is saying a lot. I was going to say, we're probably going to moan about the Champions Cup today. But when you hear that, then maybe it's not too bad. So I've just outlined there everything that we're going to try and get through on the pod today. We're going to get to emails as well. Plenty of people got in touch about our attendance discussion last week about some of the low attendances in the Prem. I wanted to tease this right at the top. We'll come back to it later, but you can get thinking. Russell Wright emailed the ruck at the times.co.uk and he said, I enjoyed last week's discussion about attendance figures at the start of the Prem and the reasons behind them.

4:29Alfie: Afterwards, I went down a few rabbit holes researching rugby stadiums in the UK. So here's a related rugby trivia question I thought you would enjoy. So here's the question. You two have to think about this over the next 45 minutes to an hour. Can you name the five largest rugby union club grounds by capacity in the United Kingdom? So only stadiums used by clubs in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as their primary stadium. So like the big games and, you know, big summer kickoff. No Tottenham. No Tottenham, no Principality, no Twickenham, just for the clubs. You reckon you've got it?

5:03Alfie: Top five? Is it Irish or just British? British. So UK, Northern Ireland. OK, OK. I bet there's some rogues in there that we haven't thought of. There's one in particular that I think is really tricky to get. We'll see how you get on with the other four, but we'll come on to that later. Can they play along at home as well if you're watching on YouTube? Yeah, well, not in live real time, can they? It's like House of Games or Pointless or something. It's brilliant. Well, you've got to branch out these days. It's all multimedia. It's the Ruck Quiz maybe coming to you soon. Shall we start off with the Champions Cup?

5:34Alfie: Thoughts on the opening round of the Champions Cup? Well, hot off the press, our friends at Oval Insights have told us that statistically, and we're starting off on a negative note, This is the worst opening round for the Prem in Heineken and Champions Cup history. In terms of win percentage, they've got obviously eight teams for the English clubs. So only one of them won Northampton, the game that Elgin was at. All the others lost in the Champions Cup because there were wins in the Challenge Cup for Quinns particularly. So not a great start for the Prem. And I think it was something that Charlie said in our pod last week.

6:08of we will reveal, the Premier will sort of reveal itself to the world as to how good a competition it is when you start playing against URC and top 14 teams. And largely, with some notable exceptions, it didn't go very well, did it?

6:22Alfie: Do we not think it's one of those things that, I don't know, I reckon if we went back over the last four or five years and listened to the pods we've done off the back of the opening round in the Champions Cup, some weekends would have been like the one we've just seen, where it's been a pretty bad weekend for the English clubs. And I'm sure somewhere in there, there'd be a weekend where actually we're like, Oh, that was pretty good. Six wins out of eight. That wasn't too bad. It's just one of those things that comes and goes. We probably know where the English clubs sit within Europe. We know the top 14 is much stronger.

6:48Alfie: Leinster at the top of the UR. In fact, Glasgow probably as well. Some of those teams at the top of the URC are stronger. And the fact that we've got eight English clubs in, it always means there's going to be clubs in there that struggle. Yeah, and I guess you could probably balance them out where if you're really disappointed at how Sale performed, albeit against one of the best teams in Europe, Glasgow, and Saracens, that was probably quite a shock result to get kind of put away by Connacht there. Yeah. You balance it out with Gloucester's crazy draw that no one would have predicted against back-to-back champs Bordeaux.

7:19And then the Toulouse-Exeter game, albeit it was a defeat, was a remarkable match. So it's funny because there is sort of general negativity about the Prem, but within there, you've probably got two teams that overperformed and a couple that underperformed.

7:34Alfie: Yeah, and then Bristol did a massively rotated side, going away to Cape Town. The Stormers went pretty strong, 10 Springboks in their match day 23. So, well, I was about to say a mixed bag, not really a mixed bag, because there are loads of defeats for the English clubs, but there's different contexts to all of those. And we'll maybe come back onto Bathwell, which was disappointing. Should we do the Gloucester thing? You're right, but it was bookended, wasn't it, the weekend, but two kind of epic games. Gloucester-Bordeaux, epic 36-all draw. I'm going to get us in trouble here, because I might be keeping the negativity going.

8:05Alfie: But for me, Gloucester-Bordeaux epitomised why the Champions Cup doesn't work. And what I mean... Why so? Well, because epic game, like must have been awesome to be there in isolation. What a match. But what does it actually mean? And I think for Gloucester, maybe it's confirmation that Gloucester are the real deal. I think that's what Alex said in his match report. But I think Bordeaux will still qualify. Gloucester may well still qualify because 16 out of the 24 teams do anyway. Gloucester still aren't going to win the Champions Cup. And so, yes, great game in isolation. But I was left thinking, well, what does it actually really mean in the context of the competition?

8:43Alfie: And I reached the conclusion of, well, not really that much. Do you agree, disagree?

8:47Elgan: I agree that we can have our now annual disclaimer that the pool stage of the Champions Cup feels a bit like four friendlies before the knockouts really kick off and remain some of the best European rugby we ever see. What I would say against that is that something as simple as a draw in that first round can have huge ramifications for home and away in the knockouts. We saw a few years ago when Bordeaux beat Toulouse in the knockouts, the reason they were pitted together was because they'd been put in the same pool together. They didn't play each other, but Toulouse had a game out in South Africa.

9:16Elgan: They won without a bonus point, and that affects your seeding later on down the line. A huge factor of Europe winning away from home, so difficult to do, especially in the knockouts. So even just the fact that Bordeaux haven't won their opening game, suddenly it might make their route to the final. They so often play at Bordeaux. It's the thing that people say about Leinster, how often they get to play at Dublin. It's a thing that Bordeaux very often get to play in not only Chabon Del Mar, but also the football stadium in Bordeaux, if you get your ducks in the row nice and early. But one little setback like this, and it'll get you when it comes around to the semifinals, possibly.

9:48Well, it was different last season, but Toulouse basically didn't win the Champions Cup or get as far as they usually do, because they lost a couple of games. They lost in Glasgow and they lost to Saris, didn't they? So actually, I think there is importance here, but maybe not for Gloucester almost, but for Bordeaux. Because if they're going to be one of those teams that are right at the top like they usually are, they're struggling already. And to back up Elgin's point there, the stats are absolutely clear on this. So the Champions Cup was established as an offshoot of the Heineken Cup, as we all know, in 2014-15 and in those years since.

10:27Firstly, it's almost impossible to win the Champions Cup. Well, it's definitely impossible to win the Champions Cup if you're outside the top seeds, so like the top four seeds. And they've slightly done the pull into last eight or last 16 thing differently over the years, so it changes a bit. But just looking at, there's two COVID-affected seasons, so 2020-2021, where Toulouse were sort of ranked fourth, but they did it in kind of two tranches, so it doesn't quite count. And then La Rochelle was sort of ranked seventh, but that didn't really work either. But otherwise, the rankings from the pool stage for the winner have been 2-1-3, 1-1, 2-2, 1-1-1.

11:07So, i.e., you have to be a top seed to win. And that's because you get the triple benefit of last 16, quarterfinal, semifinal at home. There's only been two sides that have ever won away in the semifinal and then won the competition. And that was Saracens in 2017. They won in Dublin against Munster. And then La Rochelle, they won away in the semi-final in 2022 and then ended up winning the title. So essentially, I think that there's a lot of teams now who basically will not win the Champions Cup because of this first weekend. And one of them being Bordeaux. There's your hot take. Bordeaux will not win the Champions Cup.

11:43Alfie: And I think what you guys have said is true in that, OK, if we're looking at Gloucester, Bordeaux, Friday night, it may be significant for the very back end of this competition. Personally, I don't think that's enough to sustain the pool stages and having that epic game in the pool stages. But that point is a really interesting one, Will. You now think Bordeaux won't win it because of this draw. And equally Bath. And Bath, yeah. I think equally Bath. So Bath went strong, if we want to get onto that one. They went strong. They picked their best team. They'd rested the week before against Northampton, which led to that wild 71-48 game that we talked about at length last week.

12:17And they're really disappointing. They were really off the pace. They had Spencer back. They had their best scrum guys on the field to start with. They had like a Barno and Stewart, didn't they, with Dunne in the middle, Frost coming off the bench. They actually had two hookers on the bench with Tupolotti there too. And they were way off it. And Montpellier, they rotated a little bit. They changed their bench a bit. Billy Vinopolo was on the bench. And actually, as the one neutral in the open stand, opposite. So I didn't write on the game. I went, as I said, with my partner and we bought tickets in the open stand and luckily it wasn't raining.

12:50So we didn't get wet. Always a lottery. Yeah, but it was quite funny because when Montpellier scored their bonus point securing try, so three more than Bath, now we've got that rolling, Billy Vinopola walked back along the touchline as he saw lots of Bath fans leaving because it was about five minutes to go and late game. And he was waving them off. He was just going, bye, everyone. See ya. Cheers. which obviously riled them up even more but that was a marquee result for Montpellier. I wonder whether they can sustain it all the way to be the sort of new French dynastical club but I don't think Bath have got a chance now of winning the competition.

13:30Elgan: And Bath will now be considering what they do for the next three pool games because we saw it was at Benetton a few seasons ago where they went wrong at the start and then they sort of wrote off the rest of the Champions Cup campaign. And then got into the Challenge Cup and won it. And coaches are already wrestling with player selections because, so I was at Northampton, I'm jumping ahead here, but I was at Northampton on Sunday where Northampton's England players weren't playing. Finn Smith was on the bench, but the rest of them weren't playing. Cardiff had rested two-thirds of their de facto first choice 15 as well.

14:02Elgan: Slightly different reason. They had a five-day turnaround, which Phil Lowson, who isn't even the coach dealing with that, he said, that's nuts, that's bonkers. I don't know how that happens in this day and age. Yeah, home to the Sharks on Friday night. So there are so many things that head coaches, directors of rugby have to wrestle with already. We're in October. They're already thinking about, you know, player availability, playing internationals. They're wrestling with that already.

14:26Alfie: Before I move us on, I want to get to this email. Guy Smith got in touch and he's a Gloucester fan, said he was there. He was actually saying that the famous draw should have been a famous win because he wasn't happy with some of the officiating. But he said, I just wanted to check that the pod was intending on issuing a complete withdrawal of the seemingly unanimous view discussed on last week's pod. And I paraphrase that only two English teams capable of making a meaningful impact on the Champions Cup would be Northampton and Bath. Are we backing down already or are we sticking to our guns?

14:55Elgan: I'd have to point him towards last week's edition of The Rugby Man in which I spoke about the great age of Olivier Azzam and Ludovic Mercier and how France can bring the best out of Gloucester in the shed. So I wasn't on the pod, so I sound like I thought they would do well. That's a classic journalist. I don't write the headlines, mate. But the thing we... Yeah, OK. We'll take one there. But so what have Gloucester got next? I'm just looking up. They've got Rassing away. Rassing a bit hit and miss these days in Europe. Very, yeah. They've got the Stormers at home, which is a good place to get the Stormers, but we'll see where the Stormers are in January because, like everyone, they sort of go, OK, as much as they actually like the Champions Cup, unlike some of the other South African teams, they might make a decision there to rotate.

15:44Munster away for them is a massive one. Look, it depends what you mean by meaningful impact on the tournament, doesn't it? Like, is a meaningful impact for Gloucester getting to the quarters, which they basically haven't done for ever or a very long time, if anything?

15:58Alfie: I think we were saying the teams that if they go well in the pool stages, if they get a good draw, if they're mainly at home, Who could get semi-final, maybe final, and then who knows? And I would still say that it's massively unlikely that Gloucester make a semi. I agree. Or a final. And I would absolutely love it if they did. But I don't think it was a wild take to say the two best teams in Europe who've made semi-finals over the last couple of years were England's hopes. And the one actually, it's funny, we can get onto the Connaught Saris maybe, but I was looking at that game to start with going, look at that Saracen team, six Lions, internationals all over the place.

16:34And if that's a team that focus on Europe, they could have a really good go at this. And then they just got... It was a bit of a tit-for-tat game, wasn't it? But then they kind of just got blown away, which is kind of worrying, isn't it?

16:47Alfie: For them and England, I think. Funny starts of the season, I think, for Sarri's. I was at Welford Road when I thought they looked pretty good and had to get through a 20-minute red card for Nick Asikwe and beat Leicester on the opening weekend. Then really poor in defeat to Sale. Bristol were awful and then beat them the weekend before. So they're a bit like Leicester, actually, I think, Sarri's at the moment, where you're looking at them and just trying to work out how good... What are you? Yeah, how actually... Are you a thing? Existential crisis. But how good are they at the moment? I think there's a few questions there.

17:16Alfie: It's funny, actually, though, you know how we're saying that, OK, bad weekend for, say, a Bordeaux and a Bath to lose, who then didn't get the tri-bonus point against Exeter because it's the different bonus point. Somewhere there's going to be a team that, say, could be a Gloucester, for example, that do quite well and then they're going to end up getting Bordeaux or a really horrible knockout just because teams drop off slightly. But if we said it's a bad weekend for, say, Bordeaux and for Bath, good weekend for Leinster and Glasgow, both as a result of that. Exeter are interesting as well if we want to get onto that game.

17:47Alfie: They had a great go at Toulouse. Just lingering on Leinster and Glasgow, I think already you think with the French guys not quite maxing out their points tallies, this has got to be the season for either one of those. And it's sort of always the season for Leinster to try and finally win another one. But Glasgow messed it up last year, didn't they? They were one of the top two seeds. They had a path to get to a Murrayfield semi-final, which would have been mega. And they bloody lost to Toulon at home. So you have to win your home games. They were very good at Sale. Sale were poor. I'm sure the absolutely tragic death of Hyron Andrews will have affected Sale because he played with them last season.

18:28And equally, obviously, the Lions who went to La Rochelle. I mean, that was just utterly, utterly devastating. But I know it's trite to sort of separate that out from the rugby. But if you just look at the rugby, Glasgow are incredibly impressive there and have been for a few seasons. It's now on them to make the most out of their budget because they're one of the top spending teams in Europe these days. They'll probably spend about nine million quid on their team. So they should really be looking at going deep. and then obviously Leinster should every year, really. And their challenge is winning a final, not necessarily a quarter or a semi.

19:04Alfie: Yeah, same old conversation with Leinster, isn't it? But we'll see what they look like, presuming they get to the latter stages, which they tend to do. Should we just quickly finish off on the Champions Cup, Elgin, with Exeter? I mean, that is so close to an unbelievable result against Toulouse. They come up short. Henry Slade with a penalty, which actually for a man of his talents is a penalty he'll feel he should make every single time to drag it wide. Sorry to interrupt, but I've watched him a few times this season and he's missed a few kicks. And he was practising during the half-time break

19:32Elgan: during one of the Prem games, wasn't he? He was absolutely dead-eye last year. And this season, he's getting kind of four out of six, but he's missing a couple every week. And he missed a couple at Bath. They've all kind of been a bit immaterial because they've either lost the game by enough that it didn't matter or won it by enough that it didn't matter. But this time, it really did. But that was a wild game, Elgin, wasn't it? Yeah, I thought it when they were awarded that scrum penalty and not just after the fact he missed it. But I thought they might as well go for the corner here because you get a losing bonus point.

20:04Elgan: If you get the penalty, you draw. So that's from one point to two points. If you win, you get four. You get a historic win against Toulouse. I think the upside of going for four points was the option. But they went for the penalty and he missed. So there we are. They missed out on the famous victory. Obviously, there's the caveat of the early red card. They meant they were playing against 14 men for so long. But no, they should have gone for the win. A few points on the Exeter thing. As much as we all want these teams to go deep, I do think there's something for Exeter in that defeat and actually Gloucester in that draw where that can propel them to greater things in their domestic season.

20:38Because Exeter, I've said last week, they've kind of been a bit funny this season and not quite found last year's identity. And at the moment, they've basically got no back three. Paul Brown, Bampo's injured. Ollie Woodburn's injured. Faber-Bos is injured. Zach Wimbush, who's sometimes a 12, sometimes plays elsewhere, was on the right wing, scored a hat-trick. Injured himself. Injured himself during scoring the hat-trick try. So then Will Hayden-Wood, who's a utility back but largely plays further inside, was on the wing. Obviously, they had the netty red card, which I thought Holly Davison did a great job there of giving a permanent red, not sort of bottling it and giving a 20-minute because that was a flat-out tucked shoulder to the head.

21:21but there's a lot there. There's a lot there for Exeter to say, yes, okay, we conceded 40-odd points but we scored 40 in Toulouse, six tries, without quite a lot of our gun team and I thought Ethan Roots was awesome. I thought Daph Jenkins, as usual, was pretty damn good as well. There's a genesis of a rebirth of that team in there, I think.

21:47Alfie: And that's what you were saying Rob Baxter was saying the week before at the end of the first three rounds of the Prem is you've got to back it up if you want to be the team that we want to be. You've got to go to Europe and back it up and come back to the Prem. With that in mind, they face Bristol at Ashton Gate this coming Saturday in the 5.30. Bristol, who have basically rotated their team for the last two weeks but have had the trip down to Cape Town, whereas you've had Exeter that have gone pretty strong and had an absolute ding-dong with Toulouse. Who's better place going into that Prem game?

22:15Alfie: Bristol, who have totally rotated first team is basically haven't played for two weeks, or Exeter that will be bruised and battered after that match to lose. What do you reckon? Exeter, I go for.

22:26Elgan: Battle-hardened. Battle-hardened. Also, just the manner of that defeat for Bristol might... I mean, they might have a response to that, but no, I would say that Exeter might be well-placed for an upset there. So Bristol basically left their seven best players at home, didn't they? Yeah. Pedro Rubiolo was back, yeah. So, yeah, and then I guess we need to find out whether Faber-Bosie's back fit this week. They were hoping, so he pulled his hamstring in the Newcastle game. They were hopeful it wasn't a long one. I do wonder whether, and I don't have any news on this yet, but England say, let's just calm that return so that you're ready for the Wallabies.

23:01Definitely. But yeah, that's going to be a good game, isn't it? That's quite instructive. I mean, we've got a Derby weekend coming, which is possibly, if we sort of widen it out, I wonder whether, I don't know whether, it obviously didn't apply to the URC teams or some of the top 14 teams, but this one-off round of Europe was a bit weird for the Prem when they've got a Derby weekend coming straight afterwards. Like sitting at the rec as a fan kind of thing, it was really, really, really flat. It wasn't like a normal rec day. And maybe that was because people were expecting Bath to win. It's a Saturday night, eight o 'clock kickoff.

23:39So changes the atmosphere a little bit. It just felt it was an entertain me crowd where people sort of sit there and go like, What are you going to serve up for me today? It's a bit rugby generally, though, isn't it? All right, well, I won't bother and I won't cheer.

23:51Alfie: Yeah, but I'd say that's kind of a rugby thing. Maybe, yeah. Not everywhere, but I'd say generally speaking. But I think the round of the Prem that's coming up is going to be really, really intriguing.

24:01Elgan: We said a few weeks ago about what it could do for Harlequin's season after this terrible start to have this game against Van, where they did win convincingly. They got a bit of good feeling in the building and now a derby game, which they can historically get themselves up for even when they have been terrible in the weeks leading up to it. So we've seen one half of that go as we thought, as we suggested it might. We'll see what happens next weekend.

24:22Alfie: Well, pause there because we'll chat more about Derby weekend next weekend, after next weekend and all of those matches, some of them really, really intriguing. We'll take a quick break. But up next, Spain has launched its bid for the 2035 Rugby World Cup. Juan Carlos Martin Hansen, the executive president of the FER, which is the Spanish Rugby Federation, joins us next to explain all. Well, delighted to welcome Juan Carlos onto the RUC. Juan Carlos, how are you? How's things? Very well, thank you. Pleased to talk to you from Spain. Not sunny today in Spain. It's cloudy, but very well, thank you.

25:00Alfie: Well, look, we really appreciate your time. We're going to come on to the Rugby World Cup bid, which there's loads of stuff we want to ask you about. I think it's so exciting and so many different strands to it. Can I ask, first of all, your correct full name? because Juan Carlos Martín Hansen. But is Hansen a nickname? Does it come from your rugby playing days? Yeah, it's a nickname. It's a long name, Juan Carlos Martín Sánchez. You know, we use double sub-name Spain. It's too long. Two names, two sub-names, so we use a nickname. This comes from a movie called Slapshot, a hockey movie, a long time ago.

25:35So we were travelling to Barcelona to play and we saw in the film where they were playing hockey, and the coach was recommending playing brutal instead of technique so at that moment a number of friends we played very tough and we became a kind of Hansen brothers and finally I kept that nickname nothing special to comment

26:01Alfie: interesting, I wanted to ask I saw it in quotation marks when I saw your name written down so I thought there would be a story behind it Look, Spain 2035 Rugby World Cup bid. How are you feeling now that you have announced your plans and the bid is out there? We are doing our homeworks. Our next milestone is to present the whole package to the Rugby Committee at the end of this month. But overall, we are considering that we have a very good proposition. Very good indeed. We definitely think that Spain can host a world championship with the maximum guarantees, with the best stadiums in the world and a number of advantages that I can tell you later.

26:46But obviously, it's a country very close of nations like you, six nations countries. But this is also a bridge to Latin America. And the most important thing, our candidature, the claim is bridge the world because we are offering a new market. We are offering 50 million rugby consumers and we are offering something that can really help rugby become more global. So we are very proud of what we are doing and we think we are knocking on the door, not just for begging or asking. We are offering new markets, new followers, and especially a strategic business plan, but also a sports plan to make rugby world bigger.

27:31I'd love to ask you, Juan Carlos, about the specifics of your bid. Because I guess if you asked rugby fans or us, and you said, would you like to go to Spain for two months and eat nice food, go to nice cities, you'd get everyone saying yes, I think. Sign us up, yeah. But talk to me about where you'd like to play the games. We've read over the last week or so that the Bernabeu, the Nou Camp are on the list, Mestalla. Talk to us about where we might see these matches. Well, definitely we need high quality standards. So we are taking the best stadiums in Spain. Obviously Barcelona, Real Madrid, Atletico Madrid, Valencia, Sevilla, Bilbao, San Sebastián.

28:11The good thing is that all of them, all of our proposals, are already certified for playing rugby. Most of them we have been doing previously matches, big events, matches demonstrating that this is prepared for doing that. Also, we are not requesting any investment. And I consider that the Spain is organizing the 2030 Football World Championship, and everybody is investing in the stadiums for having the best fun experience. So we're going to have the best stadiums in the world. So we are not going to ask anything new for rugby. We are going just to reuse what is going to be delivered by 2030 for the Football Championship.

28:47So I think we have chosen the basic studios, but also all of these areas are areas of good critical mass of rugby, where there is a link with the clubs and institutions. So at the end, we are defining a number of areas of developments or hubs in Spain. All of them are a perfect match between the hubs, the clubs, the institutions and the stadiums. So that's why we think we can really deliver fantastic experience and at the same time work for a real legacy. Our strategy is to create legacy and then expand this legacy to the other regions where you are not hosting the World Championship. We can get onto the legacy and how you might create Spain into one of the new sort of major nations in World Rugby in a second, but I was just keen to know a bit more about the specifics of this bid.

29:47So do you have an agreement with La Liga already to use those stadiums? Because I know that with other World Cup bids, that sometimes comes afterwards. And I know that France, for example, had to negotiate about what match days were happening because of Ligue 1 football. So are you already in agreement with La Liga that you can use their grounds? Definitely we started this process nearly three years ago. Two years ago we were already talking with La Liga. And obviously from the beginning it was a must to release the stadiums and to fix the calendars and the schedules. And then everything is fine with that.

30:23But the important thing is that we are not going to have any logistic issues. And also, apart from La Liga, we have a whole institutional alignment like Spanish Football Federation, but also the Spanish government. All the stakeholders in Spain are fully supporting rugby. I mean, this is a kind of vision now that perhaps three years ago could have been impossible. And now we have a united country wondering what's going on with rugby. and I think we all believe that there's going to be a real transformation level for Spanish rugby and also Spanish sports. So what we are saying here is don't think just in rugby, we think about the whole Spanish ecosystem of sports and rugby is the only sport missing in Spain, the only sport where we have to develop and become tier one in the following years and we can do that.

31:12Alfie: Well, I was just about to ask you, how big can rugby become in Spain? Yeah. Well, the plans we have at the moment are very ambitious. At the moment, we have 40 ,000 licenses, 90 ,000 people playing rugby because we don't have licenses in the schools, in the university, veterans, in beach rugby, military. We have lots of social rugby, I would say. But the problem until now is that we haven't had a strategy. Also, remember, we are playing both with men and women. We have qualified for both world championships, men and women, so seventh side, we are in the top eight in the world. So we are just one of the six countries in the world who have both men and women, 15 and seven, in the maximum category, and all our lower levels in the maximum category now.

31:58We have done just in two years that. So we have done that in two years, and now we are moving in the next stage. So our plans for expanding RAPI comes from 40 ,000 licenses to more than 100 ,000 licenses by 2031. by 2035, 120 ,000 licenses. This is only possible doing things differently and with a clear transformation process and thanks to the organizing a world championship. So that's part of the legacy. But definitely Spain can have all that what it takes to be a rugby country. We have already organized the world series in Spain, the Bilbao finals for EPCR. We are already doing things with a great success.

32:44So I think there is a roadmap. So this is going to happen shortly. And as soon as we win this bid, we will have eight years for really transforming the rugby in Spain, but also worldwide because we can host a number of events and we are thinking about being competitive with six nations countries by 2031 and having Spain as an interesting place to be and to invest. So I was thinking about how you break through into that kind of top category. So for our listeners that don't know, the men's team are ranked 17th in the world. The women's are ranked 14th in the world. But I guess as we've seen with Georgia, who you play with in the Rugby Europe Championship, there is a ceiling to where you can get to because the Six Nations are not allowing people to come in.

33:34There isn't a natural league for you to go into. So could you tell us about your plans and how long they might take if you wanted to get into the Six Nations and maybe a competition like the URC? Well, our strategy is to have obviously a franchise, professional franchise. With just 40 ,000 licenses compared with France, more than 400 ,000 licenses. You cannot, and with a big league, you cannot think about competing. We don't do things differently. So we are creating a new franchise. It's already created. It started to win the Super Cup in Europe last year. This is the Iberians, isn't it? The Iberians.

34:16It's called Iberians. So what we are doing is releasing those players and making them fully professional, fully dedicated. So we control the workload, nutrition, recovery, the way they have to play, the style. So with Iberians, we have an important piece, which is having them competing during a number of years with enough number of matches we can have a Spanish national team being competitive in a world championship so the only way we can be competitive is having Iberia playing at the maximum level this year we have already started the discussions and we are ready to join EPCR next year and in the following years we will be talking with the USC to also join that competition so So Iberians, with the current players, plus a number of players that we are releasing, plus a number of professional, even non-Spanish players, reinforce some key positions to make it competitive, so we can allow the rest of the players to play at the maximum level possible and be competitive at the same time.

35:23So we will see that in a few years, we will have a Spanish national team that can't really compete with big teams like yours. And so that's fascinating that you're in discussions with URC and EPCR already, because obviously you've hosted the finals, the EPCR finals a couple of times in Beauvais. So how quickly could you join the URC? Because I know that obviously with the problems with the World Regions, they might lose a team there. So would you be the next choice to come in then? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we are in that process now. We are in the process to see when Spain could be the franchise. But it should be fast.

36:07The important thing is that we have our legal company supporting that. We have the contracts, we have the structure, we have the stadium for Leganes, 50 ,000 people for the stadium prepared. We have all the whole organization. We have even the roles and we have the funding. And we are working to join as soon as possible.

36:28Alfie: What about the Six Nations point of view? Georgia have found it's incredibly difficult to, you know, they've wanted to be involved. It's very difficult to make that transition and whether you would be allowed in. Is that something you want to pursue? Do you think it's possible? I think it's possible. Could be something very interesting. But we recognize that Six Nations is a private competition. So first, we have to become a serious player. We have to demonstrate that we can be a good, proud country. And then we will offer opportunities. So why not Spain playing initially with Six Nations? But there could be also other ways of having other countries knocking on the door.

37:11We have an alliance now with Georgia, Portugal and Romania to have a number of matches together every year. So in the future, you will have opportunities with these countries. Nevertheless, our aim is to keep on developing, to have 2035 Spain competing in Spain at the maximum level possible. And why not Six Nations could be part of that programme? But this is something that is not up to us.

37:36Elgan: Juan Carlos, what about the women's Six Nations? Spain infamously used to be in the competition and were removed from it 20-odd years ago. But the women's rugby understands that it can do things a bit differently from the men's competition. Would you see that as a possible earlier means into that tournament? Well, I mean, again, it's a private competition. So it's not just a matter of having a good team and being appropriate. There are many, many topics to consider. What is clear is our intention is to put again our women in the top 10 world level. We are also investing a lot in women. We also would like to organize Women's 2037 World Championship in Spain.

38:19For us, investing in our girls is critical, both in 7 and 15. Strategically, we have decided to invest in all of them at the same time. So the same models, the same... So women will also have a franchise for the law. Women will have also developed government plans. And we have a strategic plan for developing more licenses, reducing the cost of the insurance, implementing more stadiums, lots of things to do both for men and women. So obviously women playing with six nations could have more reason because we were at the beginning as you said properly and because of I would say commercial reasons we were taken out, not because of sport reasons because Spain at that moment was playing at the same level.

39:05Now we will see that with the agreements we are doing with World Rappi and the Nations Cup, we are intending to put our team in the following years in a very good shape. So last thought, Juan Carlos, about hosting matches, because obviously it'd be a fantastic place for lots of competitions to go. What other discussions are you having about that? So we did a piece the other week about the European Cup, keen to find new venues for 29-30 and you've hosted top 14 matches before the finals a few years ago. Would you be interested in another Champions Cup final and maybe even a top 14 final in the future?

39:47Yeah, we are working on that. What is clear is that in the past, many years ago, there were lots of events in Spain, miscoordinated or not coordinated, And it was like Mr. Marshall's plan after the World War, that came to Europe, but Spain didn't see anything. So what we have seen is that lots of events have been done without the intervention of the Union. What we are doing now is that every event that happens in Spain has to be done through the Spanish Union. So we can generate resources, we can exploit that properly, and we can link to our plans. So now we have very good opportunities in Spain.

40:31And we are offering Spain as a country to come for all the visitors. With the Liga Nacional de Rugby in France. We have been in touch because we want them to play in Ocam. In the new time. We have to see when it's going to be prepared, because you know that no can is being reformished under construction, and we have to see if in 2029 would be a good moment or not. So we are having these kind of discussions, but definitely we are open to many things, and we are talking about top cathodes, EPCR, international events, all kind of stuff regarding rugby with plants. and we are working very seriously with all these projects.

41:24Alfie: Well, Juan Carlos, we wish you all the best. We really thank you for your time and we're excited to see how you get on with this bid and how Spain get on at the Men's World Cup next year as well. It's an exciting time maybe for Spanish rugby. So thank you so much. It's now or never. So thank you very much. Appreciate your time. Thank you so much. That's Juan Carlos Martín Hansen joining us as Spain launch their bid for the 2035 Rugby World Cup. I'll tell you what, Will Elgin, very quickly, seven weeks, two months in Spain for a World Cup. We fancy that, don't we? It could be like a walking croquette by the end of that.

41:59Unbelievable. I mean, look, so just to do the quick admin on it, so the three bids are in for that 2035 World Cup, which feels miles away, but there's a South American bid using Uruguay, Chile, Brazil, but largely Argentina, and that includes using the Maracanã, which would be pretty cool in Rio. the Chile National Stadium and the Centenario Montevideo. And then there's a Japanese bid to go back there after 2019, which was an incredibly successful tournament. But I don't think, not just because we've had him on, but I feel like the Spanish one ticks all the boxes. I'm not sure we desperately need to, like Japan was amazing, but it's cool to do it somewhere else.

42:37I know for a fact that having spoken to World Rugby last year that they would prefer to come back to Europe. It hits the European TV market. you can get direct flights in from all over the world to Madrid. They've got an amazing transport network, which might be a little bit more of a problem for South America. And like, as Juan Carlos was saying, all the stadiums are ready. La Liga on board. Sounds great, Elgin, doesn't it?

43:01Elgan: Yeah, I think there's three things that make it really compelling. One are, it's on France's doorstep, which is such a thriving rugby ecosystem, but not just France. You've got Portugal, Italy, possibly Belgium might be at the World Cup. By then you've got the four home unions. so you've got this huge rugby market on its doorstep. If you look at the list of football stadiums in Spain, there's 11 that are bigger than 40 ,000. There's two in Barcelona, two in Madrid, three in Seville, I think. That doesn't even include Valladolid, which is a bit of a rugby area as well. You've got the two in the Basque Country that we're very familiar with in rugby.

43:32Elgan: And then I think the other aspect that they've got in their favour, if they're going to host possibly 2037 for the Women's World Cup as well, we've seen the next two World Cups are in the same country for both. Argentina don't feature in women's rugby. Japan do feature in women's rugby, but Spain, it feels like a slightly higher up in that regard as well. So those are some compelling things in their favour. They've got a year, basically, to convince everyone. A bit less, actually, so the bids are in now.

43:56Alfie: Because at the end of this year, they really put their plan forward to World Rugby, and then World Rugby, around this time next year, will say who their preferred bidder is. So around May, they'll say who their preferred bidder is, and then they'll officially ratify it, basically, at the World Cup in 27. Okay. And we didn't get into it there, but this is like the US and the Aussie was a men's and women's bid together. This is solely a men's bid, I understand. But who knows, as Elgin says, that could be an easy way in. But I do like as well, top 14 final in the Nou Camp. They've done that before, haven't they, Elgin?

44:30Elgan: They have, yeah. And I've seen Poe play Bayern in San Sebastian. They've had games in Bilbao. So especially in that northern area of Spain where France and Spain on that border. There's a lot of rugby heartland there already. The Bilbao finals weekend was awesome. You guys had a great time there, didn't you? On our pod, I actually did a bit on that pod saying, imagine the World Cup here. It's destinations. Cheaper beers in Australia.

44:55Alfie: Well, sign everyone up for that. But even in their, the stuff that they put out, I mean, 100 ,000 New Camp World Cup final, like it's an easy sell. Let's put it that way. Let's see what happens. We appreciate his time. We'll have a very quick break. Up next, we'll finish the pod chatting about the Red Roses is finally losing, and we'll get to some of your emails as well.

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47:39Alfie: Well, brilliant to have Juan Carlos with us. We appreciate his time. Will Elgin, let's just finish our final section of today's pod. Can't believe, Elgin, it's taken us this long to get to the Red Roses, in all honesty, because Canada 24, England 21. I mean, of all rugby played over the weekend, it's the result of the weekend, isn't it? What a moment for the women's game.

47:59Elgan: Yeah, I mean, historic occasion out in Toronto for so many reasons. It was a record standalone women's crowd for rugby in North America, just above 18 ,000. Very rare for Canada to have a home game. They had won last year and this is their first home game since August 2025. So the Canadian public doesn't get to see their team play at home very often. This result was coming. The Red Roses unbeaten for 41 games, but the winning streak had ended at Sandy Park when Canada drew 26 all in that game. And then New Zealand were level with them as well until the final play interception. so there was a sense that this first game of the two match series the first one in Canada might be the one where Canada finally did it they'd never beaten them for 10 years and they thoroughly deserved it because whereas in the Sandy Park game they were really clinging on and England should have beaten them this time Canada came from behind 21-12 down they scored two great tries the winning try in particular was excellent bit of handling by Sophie de Goody and Gabrielle Senft who was huge off the bench, and then Shoshana Sumanitafa scoring out wide.

49:02Elgan: It was pandemonium out in Toronto when that happened. A bit quieter at 2am in my living room when it happened back over in the UK. But it was a great occasion. And not to bash the Red Roses, but for the development of the international women's game, it was the result that I think it needed for the big picture.

49:20Alfie: I want to come to an email in just a second, because we got one which I think asks quite an interesting question. But I feel like whenever something like this happens, Yes, of course, praise to Canada. Incredible moment. I think what the WXV Global Series has thrown up has been something quite interesting, hasn't it? At the top of the international game in terms of England being close with Canada, losing to them close with the Blackthorns. But it's just a moment for an appreciation of that English run rather than just moving on and, you know, forgetting about it. Extraordinary run for that team, which deserves.

49:50Alfie: We've praised them a lot, deservedly so. I think it's worth just kind of mentioning now that it has come to an end.

49:54Elgan: So that's two defeats in 73 games that the Red Roses have had. So a 30-game unbeaten run, the gutting World Cup final defeat at Eden Park that I was there for four years ago, then a 41-game unbeaten run, and now this defeat. So I remember speaking to Zoe Oldcroft when she was still the England captain before she took a break for pregnancy and Megan Jones took over. And she was talking about how the aim is to just go on this unbeaten run that might never happen again because we don't know what women's rugby will look like in a few years' time. We might have the case where New Zealand are able to beat England regularly again.

50:30Elgan: Canada, France, able to beat England regularly again. So after a 30-game unbeaten run and a 41-game unbeaten run, who knows what will happen over the next four years? But that's the thing about unbeaten runs. They can end so quickly. They only need one game for it to end. So that might be the best, most dominant rugby team we see ever again. And it might... I mean, they are still possibly the best team in the world. It's just they have now lost for the first time in four years. Obviously, their record run is way, way, way beyond any men's record. But the thing that always used to happen when the All Blacks had their rare defeat was that they were angry the next week.

51:07Yeah. And it's great, isn't it? Because we've got Canada-England again this weekend in Ottawa. So I'm fascinated to see how the roses come out. Because sometimes, literally, the All Blacks would come out swinging. Like I remember... The Ireland game after Chicago.

51:22Elgan: was a boxing match. It was. There could have been at least two Reds in that game. There probably would be 10 years later. But I doubt the Roses are going to start punching people. But, man, like losing that run that's been going on for four and a bit years, like that's got to hurt deeply. And imagine like particularly someone like who's just come into the building, like Sean Edwards, goes like, is it me? Was it Jess Breach that's played 15? Jess Breach had never lost because she didn't play in the World Cup final in 2022. So she'd played more than 50 games and never lost. And now she's finally lost one.

51:59Alfie: So incredible. John emailed theruckatthetimes.co.uk and he said, something I've been wanting to ask is about John Mitchell. He gets a lot of praise for what he's doing with the Red Roses. So I have a simple question for you. If we swapped Mitchell and Kevin Rue, who would get the best out of their squads? Would Mitchell be able to accomplish what he has with an eighth of the budget in Canada, which is quite a fun hypothetical, Elgin.

52:23Elgan: Well, I mean, the pragmatic response is that Kevin Rue is Canada head coach for 2030, so it's not going to happen. But, I mean, it is a very interesting question. The mindset of being the team that is always marketed as the underdog, the one that talks about its crowdfunding campaigns, the one that talks about how they are playing essentially amateur, possibly semi-pro in a massive country that is so difficult to create a rugby ecosystem, versus a head coach coming in for a team that never loses and is the best team in the world and is the best funded. The psychology of that is fascinating. I think we perhaps sometimes reductively point out, kind of suggest that it's easy to just be the team that keeps on winning.

53:08Elgan: I mean, you wouldn't begrudge a lot of those England players coming back after that World Cup win last year and just sort of thinking like, what do we do now? We've achieved everything. So the fact that they won that Grand Slam again with so many absences and the game against France in Bordeaux, I think, was better than anything as a one-off occasion they did during that World Cup. So I don't think it's necessarily the Red Roses dropping off. But, yeah, that psychology is fascinating. And I think it's a very interesting question. I'll turn a bit to Rugby League here, that it's not always as simple as people think.

53:40Elgan: because Daryl Powell, who has just won Super League with Wakefield Trinity, which is such a good story, Wakefield, massive underdogs. Four years ago, he was the head coach of Warrington, who Wakefield beat in the final. The thinking was, Daryl Powell does great things with teams that are underdogs. If we put him in a team like Warrington that have a lot of financial support, it can only end our drought. It ended within two seasons, not in glory. So I would just cite that as an example. it's not always the case that a fabulous coach that does great things with an underdog country can translate it necessarily to the mindset of being a team that should be a big team.

54:17Alfie: Yeah, interesting. Just before I finish off with some emails, New Zealand 81, France 12? There was a bit of... What's going on with the Black Ferns?

54:26Elgan: There was a bit of rotation with the France team and the France head coach came out afterwards and said, yeah, that's on me. I maybe put out a few players that perhaps weren't ready for the occasion. But it was certainly an eye-catching result when we saw that France had beaten Canada 21-5 after that England game in Exeter. And we saw the Blackburns win out in Lyon. But hopefully the next two tests, because they're doing a three-test series in New Zealand now, won't quite be as bizarrely one-sided as the 81-12 when I saw that scoreline.

54:55Alfie: Yeah, no, I had me raising my eyebrows. Shall we finish off on some emails? I teased it earlier, Russell's question. Can you name the five largest? Can I admonish you first? You certainly can, yeah. Go on. So we did a whole section, mate, on the Champions Cup and you haven't mentioned one of the great results of the competition by my brave section pal was. What? I can't believe it. We did, what, 20 minutes on the Champions Cup? I mean, this is where I could blame you for speaking too much on other things. Ammo was absolutely rocking for that. Our Portuguese centre, Marta, was flying in. Yeah, I am putting it in.

55:31Spanish side-head prop as well. It was a great weekend for Spanish, Portuguese and Belgian players. Exactly. The Iberians at the Palois were absolutely tearing into the Tigers. And they got a bonus point as well. And we didn't even mention it. I'm going to email the ruck at thetimes.co.uk for this disgrace. Please do. Please do. Was it Guy earlier that dug us out? So I've got no problem. I'm digging you out live.

55:50Alfie: That's quite all right. Shall we get to Russell's question before I don't have a job anymore? He's actually moving on. Can you name the five largest rugby union club grounds by capacity in the UK? So we've got to think, right, Elgin, we've got to do this together. Two obvious ones. Ashton Gate, Welford Road. Those are the two. Matt Early Woods, Welford Road. One and two, yeah. And they're 23 ,000, 4 ,000, 5 ,000 roughly. 27, Ashton Gate. Or just under 26 for Welford Road. So then I'm thinking, year Franklin's Gardens, year... I instinctively don't think King's Home should be in the top five.

56:23Elgan: I instinctively think King's Home shouldn't be in the top five. So I think Bart's a bit small. It's 13 and a half, 14.

56:30Alfie: It's going to be 18. This is the interesting thing when I was trying to think of it. If I got those first two Prem grounds pretty easily, then I was... Kingspan is an Ulster alteration. That's number four. So Kingspan, Ulster Stadium, just over 18 ,000. You're missing two. And the question, so one of them isn't a URC or Prem ground, which is the really tricky one. I've got nowhere near. And then the tricky thing with the Prem, I think, is kind of what you guys have said of Kingshome, the Stoop, Franklin's Gardens. There's quite a lot of Sandy Park that all feel like they're a similar size. So it's getting which is the correct one, basically.

57:04And I learnt this the other week when I was at Exeter, and it's not exclusive to them, but some stadiums under-report their attendance because it's about safety certificates and things like that. That sounds fascinating, that. Is it? Because, yeah, essentially you have to put in different transport and policing strategies. I was being sarcastic, by the way, on the fan base. Oh, right, you didn't want me to keep talking about it. It's quite all right, we can move on from that.

57:28Elgan: I've made a long read about safety certificates, to be fair. But Sandy Park's 15-ish now, as is Stoop. So do they make our... Neither of those are top five. Stone X is too small.

57:38Alfie: Not yet. The Kingshomes squeeze in? Kingshomes squeezes in in five. So we've got four of the top five. Kingshomes and Core Parks, too small, yeah. Yeah, so Ashton Gate one, Welford Road two, you don't have three, Kingspan four, Kingshome five. I was wondering if on the technicality,

57:52Elgan: Swansea squeezed in, because it used to be the Osprey Stone ground, but of course now, because they haven't yet played the St Helens, but they have been playing at Breweryfield, so I'm assuming Swansea doesn't count.

58:00Alfie: Parker Scarletts is bigger than you'd think. Not on the list, though. And that Swansea doesn't count either. I'm going to have to tell you. But you said non-URC and non-Prem. Yeah. The Darlington Arena. Whoa. 25 ,000. Wow. Should be a Prem team there, I think. Darlington. I'd never have got that, which Russell said in his email. There's one which I don't think you will get, and that was one of them. Ealing playing Darlington?

58:21Elgan: No, that's a bit too far. The Trail Finder just franchising.

58:24Alfie: Yeah. So, thank you, Russell. So I appreciate that. When I got that in the inbox, I was like, love this. This is going straight into the pod. So I appreciate it. Let's just finish off on a couple of others. I mentioned earlier, actually, that we had this discussion last week, Will, about low attendances in the Prem. We had a few people get in touch. Stuart emailed us. He's a, not Stuart Barnes, by the way, before anyone asks. He's a Bristol season ticket holder. Sent a really detailed email about possible reasons why. I'll try and sum it up, Stuart. But apologies if I don't do your email justice.

58:52Alfie: But he spoke about how early clubs are asking season ticket holders to renew for them to get the best prices, almost before the season's even finished. No idea on dates and times of fixtures, even if you look now post-Christmas, you know it's this weekend, but you don't know whether it's Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or what sort of time it is. The length of the season is a problem as well, running into the school holidays if people are retired and they want to go away before the school holidays kick in. The fact that so many matches are on television and the size of the league, you only get nine home games or eight if, for example, Bristol obviously take their game to the Principality.

59:25Alfie: I think season ticket holders still get that, but it's not there where you're planning to go each week. So his final paragraph, which maybe sums it up, was, in effect, clubs are asking supporters before the current season has finished to commit to expensive direct debits to watch a small amount of games, which may or may not be significant against familiar sides, matches that are on television with no certainty of dates and times, and also at times of the year when other attractions and commitments could loom, which I thought was quite an interesting take. It's all valid. And I think that possibly a rugby point is that rugby can't rely on a massive base of diehard fans because it just doesn't have that.

1:00:03Whereas if you went to 50 odd, 90 odd football clubs, there's always going to be a core support, no matter how big or small the game is or what night of the week it's on or whatever. But rugby has a lot of blow-ins and fair-weather fans, which is constantly trying to keep in the building and doesn't successfully do so. I think if you asked any executive who organises any competition, they'd want to reorganise the calendar and they'd all want a different version of it. And that's why we've got the messy version that we do where a 10-team prem takes basically nine months to finish.

1:00:38Alfie: Yeah. Yeah. And other people pointed that out on emails as well. I think the calendar, the structure of the season, the flow of the season, which requires a lot of people to get in the room and agree on things, which maybe is never going to happen. A lot changed. Yeah, or R360 concentrated a few minds, but still a lot of the problems remain. But thank you to all of you that have emailed us if you want to. The email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Will Elgin, do we know what this week looks like? Derby round in the Prem. I might be going to Ashton Gate actually as a punter for a change. It's a toss-up for me between Gloucester and Bristol.

1:01:13OK, cool. But, Alfie, we should tell everyone we're doing a little special tomorrow. We are. We're going to be at Leicester Tigers. Yeah. We're going to go see two key men of that East Midlands derby.

1:01:22Alfie: Yeah, that should be in everyone's feeds later on this week, which will be good fun. I'm excited for that. We've done a few specials around the country, but we haven't done the Tigers. So it's nice to go up there to Oval Park.

1:01:30Elgan: Absolutely. Looking forward to that. Elgin? I've got a few more remote things, keeping tabs on England versus France at the Men's Rugby League World Cup. Also, as we mentioned, the third England-Canada match of their three test series. We'll see what Canada's response is, and England's response as well, of course, to that famous win. And then Saturday, no rugby for me. I'm comparing a choir concert in Margate. Much more wholesome concert. Always a good mix when you ask Elgin what he's up to.

1:01:55Alfie: Lovely stuff. Love that. Awesome stuff, boys. Appreciate it. Thank you to all of you that have watched Timesport on YouTube or have listened to the pod. This has been The Ruck, the rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

1:02:09Alfie: Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions, requires iPhone 11 or later. When something significant happens in British politics, stories are always unfolding behind closed doors.

1:02:44The State of It podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times takes you inside the room where it happens. I'm Stephen Swinford, the political editor of The Times, and with me are Patrick Maguire, Lara Spirit and Ben Riley-Smith. We will bring you scoops and analysis about what is really going on in Westminster. Listen to The State of It twice a week, wherever you get your podcasts.

1:03:08Thank you.