Will Welsh rugby ever recover?

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0:35Alfie: For more than 13 years, Allianz have been a committed supporter of rugby, championing the sport from grassroots clubs to the global stage. That's why they entered a historic partnership to sponsor the home of England rugby, Allianz Stadium, helping lay stronger foundations for generations to come. We're thrilled to have them as part of the rugby community. Now, let's get into the show.

1:14Alfie: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Welcome along. January is almost over, which means the Six Nations is right around the corner. We'll chat about England's squad, which was named by Steve Borthwick on Friday, but their opening weekend opponents Wales. Well, the questions and uncertainty about the very future of the regions and the game itself continue to dominate the headlines. Plus, the latest round of Prem Action had a little bit of everything. I'm Alfie Reynolds. All of that to come in the company of the Times Deputy Rugby Correspondent Will Kelleher.

1:47Hello. How are you, Will? I'm good and I'm on YouTube, as are all of us, which is really exciting, isn't it?

1:53Alfie: This is the first episode of The Ruck that you will be able to watch on YouTube. so you may be listening to us at the moment as you usually do but if you feel so inclined do go and watch this as well is it i've had friends before when we put up video clips being like i didn't know that's what alex lowe looked like it's like when you read a book isn't it and you've got an idea he's a matinee idol isn't he but also we've got look mark evans is here i was gonna say that voice you just heard is the long-awaited eagerly anticipated return of mark evans how are you mark good to see you thank you guys what have you been doing i've been away for three and a half years you've certainly got up in the world honestly listeners and and and viewers it's all a bit flash isn't it yeah lovely new logo we've got a big boy pants on we're in a new studio it's all changed because of course I mean you were a regular contributor to the ruck mark and then you've been spending how many years now was it that you were the CEO of the Fijian Druid three and a half so three years three and a half years ten months of the year in largely sunny nandy sounds awful it had its moments actually maybe politically difficult but nice weather it was a great experience yeah so how was I mean obviously you know you've had a lot of varied experiences within rugby but I imagine that with the Fijian Druid was pretty eye opening pretty exciting a lot of challenges all of those things I wouldn't have missed it for the world I was very very I look at it being very very fortunate to be given the opportunity and it was Ben Ryan got it right when he wrote about it in his book working in Fiji is a bit like the weather it's sunny most of the time but you know a storm's coming it's just a matter of when but that is all part in a way that's all part of the experience and yeah loved it and it keeps improving despite itself in some ways you might argue but there are you know eighth in the world now and I do think in the next four or five years they might go to sixth something like that Did it make you more or less hopeful about the game?

3:45You and Mike Ailwyn one of our colleagues wrote a great book before the 2019 World Cup Unhurried Union which was all about all these massive issues in the game from concussion to how to get the best out of Fiji and everything else and having had all these jobs in different parts of the world, whether it's the Southern Hemisphere, Northern Hemisphere, going there and now coming back, do you go, I feel brighter about the future of Rugby Union globally or do you kind of go, man, we've got so many problems still to fix? I think more the former than the latter and it's not binary. I do think Fiji's really come on and will continue to come on.

4:22I think it might just have reached a tipping point. It's much less promising in Samoa and Tonga. People think they're all the same. Forget it, you've never been there. They are very, very different. And Tonga and Samoa are a lot more difficult. And Fiji's not easy.

4:38Alfie: Is that because of the size? Yeah, size. And culturally different as well. Well, more size and finance and capability and all stuff. But, yeah, largely size. I mean, Tonga, 100 ,000 people. Fiji is ten times as big. I mean, anyway, it's... The other bit to your question, it's made me more, I hope, not quite so focused on England or even Britain. And we talk about rugby's in, it's usually meaning... In the UK. The country we're in. Yeah, yeah. And that's not accurate. And people say, oh, rugby's in crisis. I say, well, it's not in crisis in Ireland. is it? It's not in crisis in France, it's not in crisis in Fiji.

5:21Yes, of course you look around the world, but there are some really good sort of improvement stories as well. I think you just, it's I hope has made me a little bit more measured in my analysis. We may not be helping here with our first topic though, in terms of like positivity in rugby.

5:43Alfie: Yeah, well indeed quite. The Wales situation, which is an ongoing situation. Do go online on the times. Elgin Alderman has been across this reporting on it and doing a great job, I think, of trying, Will, to make sense of what's a pretty unwieldy and complicated situation. I'm going to do my best to sum it up in a few bullet points and then we can take it away. I might not do a particularly good job, but a lot of listeners will already be aware of this. The WRU devised plans to go from four to three professional teams, which basically has meant it looks like a shootout in the West between the Ospreys and Scarlets.

6:16Alfie: Now the big news in the last week is that Y11, who are the owners of the Ospreys, are the WRU's preferred bidder for Cardiff. Cardiff went into administration last year, they've been run by the union since then and they've been looking for buyers and it is the current owners of the Ospreys that are their preferred bidder. Now the WRU would say that they're having to make decisions for the game to run sustainably, which means forced teams simply doesn't allow that and there is a huge cacophony of voices that totally totally disagree with that understandably emotions running high in the Welsh game at the moment and all of this will happening with Steve Tandy naming his Wales squad and the six nations men's six nations about to start yeah I mean I'm doing a similar job to you've just done there I was on the train up here going like so right let me just get a sense of the timeline of last week and you go Monday was largely that stuff there of it wales online the journalists there broke the story about y11 being the preferred bidder for cardiff then obviously supporters angry on all sides because that looks like okay the owners of the ospreys will just now own cardiff and we'll wind down the ospreys jobs are good and we've got three regions tuesday tandy six nations squad wednesday wru in welsh parliament told not to be autocratic and dictatorial they've got a grilling there so then the fan groups have raised the angler welsh question again thursday wru confirmed that they are giving exclusivity to y11 to try and buy cardiff the ospreys have said they're going to continue until at least 26 27 then ospreys players are walking out of meetings saying they've been left in the dark there was a threat of a strike which has now calmed down a little bit because the welsh rugby players association have a bit more clarity on what is happening on the weekend the ospreys see a lance Bradley met with Swansea Council, who then said they had no viable future.

8:09The council said that of the Ospreys, and it's all linked to the funding around the redevelopment of St Helens. He said that was untrue. The Swansea Council doubled down. The Ospreys, meanwhile, then drew to the Lions on the weekend. Quite a creditable result there. And all the while, the Central Glamorgan Union are trying to gather support for an extraordinary general meeting to oust Richard Collywood, the WORU chairman. So that was a week that was in Welsh rugby. And Mark, having come back to this side of the world, what do you make of all this carnage? A big sigh? Yeah, yeah, I'm Welsh and it's a big sigh.

8:45Wales is a very tribal country for a pretty small country. Two and a half million people in the 80 miles between Lletley and Newport, really. That is Welsh rugby. It's not the whole of Wales, of course not. but that's rugby Wales to a large degree. Historically, it's the national sport and historically it's based on fierce local rivalries all the way down. It's the village next door that you want to beat the most and all the rest of it. And that's true everywhere. Local derbies, that's why they're so popular. But in Wales, it's very, very difficult to get consensus. And I think that's what last week's just shown us.

9:29The core problem, looking at it from the outside, seems to me to be this. We haven't been producing enough international quality players from the pathways and development systems in the country. I think, actually, you could probably get most of the country behind that statement. It's the next bit that's causing all the trouble. OK, if we all agree with that, and without that, the national team will not be restored to its former glories, we need to put more resources into it. The structures we've had and the amount of resources we've put to it in the last 10 years has self-evidently been insufficient.

10:07So it's about what the economists call opportunity costs. There's not a lot of extra money sloshing about. And you do hear this, oh, if we hadn't built the hotel, they hadn't done the skywalk. That doesn't touch the sides in a 10-year plan. That's when it comes to, right, well, do you want to, where do we get the money from? well if we had fewer teams we could divert the money and at that point you've probably still got a bit of consensus until you again say who and then everybody goes well i don't mind but not my team it's that nimbyism isn't it and i get it i totally get it because i think that's one of the biggest issues and then secondly i'd say i think it's i can understand the theme is centralization you can look at what that's happened in the last few years and months there's a belief and i would agree with it that we that small countries need to centralize their programs more i mean i don't think there's any you're england you're france big economies large south africa even to a degree large numbers of players the law of large numbers will almost always see you through that's not true if you're wales it's not true if you're ireland scotland scotland new zealand fiji they're all small countries and wales has always quite resisted centralization we come back to this sort of you know because of the tribe country of tribes and that's why it's proving so hard it's almost as if we there's unanimity that change needs to happen and that's about where the unanimity stops there's a lot of things wales haven't got economically and size and all the rest of it right but culturally the game's really really important and you can say alright we'll never have the economic clout that bigger countries have got so where's your unique advantage the competitive advantage Wales should have is that it gets a disproportionate number of the best athletes because the game's so important as opposed to football oh yeah I mean the Wales football team feels like

12:12Alfie: it's becoming bigger and bigger and Wales Wales... Sorry, football in participation terms has always been bigger than rugby in Wales. I mean, people don't realise that. They don't come from Wales. It's always been bigger, but culturally rugby is... It's the game that traditionally we could compete on in on the global stage. And therefore, if we don't get our pathways and development programmes being top class, then that's our one core advantage wasted. And I just don't think we can afford to do that. so I'm not sure just being consultory is going to get the job done I'm not sure that just looking for unanimity is going to get the job done I would try and frame it around look guys and girls we all know we've got to improve this bit and to do that we've got to take some resources from somewhere else and that's going to be painful but can we at least all agree on that and after that is it two, is it three everyone loves the idea of an English going in Anglo-Welch That's about the only thing that seems to get everybody on board.

13:18What do you think about that? Well, I think you'd have to go to two. For an Anglo-Welsh. Yeah, so is everyone okay with two as long as it's an Anglo-Welsh? I'd be asking some quite interesting questions.

13:27Alfie: Well, that was what the WRU originally wanted to get asked to. You don't want three. Okay, but you're okay with two in the Anglo-Welsh, are you? Well, make your mind up. Where's the third one go? I think the worst decision ever made in pro rugby was Wales in the late 90s. Vernon Pune, who had that opportunity. I know they did. I was in the room and turned it down. But look, we are where we are. There's no going back. Who would you get? I certainly think you'd get more than two. And I'm not sure you can get two. The thing I always think about Anglo-Welsh, I know looking below a lot of Elgin's articles in the last week, there's all the comments, Anglo-Welsh, Anglo-Welsh, and there's such a groundswell of support for it.

14:03Alfie: But then I also suspect that there is a bit of a generational divide in a way. So I'm from Bristol. I never grew up with that Anglo-Welsh rivalry. So to be honest, sure, like Bristol playing Cardiff, great, but it doesn't excite me anywhere near in the way that it does plenty of other fans. So I don't know whether it would take off in the way that people suspect that. The thing would take off in Wales is the point. Wales almost define themselves by England in a lot of ways, not just in a rugby sense. There's no coincidence the Welsh football clubs play in the English League in a way that the Scottish don't and the Irish don't.

14:39I do think it would be popular in Wales. I think you might even get not everybody of course but you might get the majority agreeing to go to two if it was in an Anglo-Welsh league it's almost like east-west I don't know but it's not on the table it's not on the table so what do you expect the WIU to do wait until 2028 and it might not happen then that's not a strategy is it so so if you're if you're either working for the union or or one of the regional clubs and you're in this spot you are in right now what do you do do you have to if you're on the union side do you have to just say you have to take all the brick bats and just go i'm sorry but we're now right we're far too long along this path to change and we're going to have to be brutal and put your fingers in your ears and go i don't care what the the comeback's going to be to this but we have to do this or do you have to try and come with some sort of compromise that then maybe doesn't achieve what you ultimately want like how on earth do you i think the compromise has already been made isn't it it was going to go to two yeah such a pushback it went to three but as you said it's like oh it's three but oh but not the ospreys you're like well come on lads it's got to be one of you i keep coming back to the fact is that we've got to get some resources to improve the thing that we have always had and seem to have lost which is talented kids a steady supply of top class players yeah and people i do you do see some nonsense though don't you online it's just it's to do with the death of the grammar schools mate we haven't had grammar schools in wales for 70 no 65 years okay seriously you're telling me it's all down to that.

16:32It does when you've got to laugh, haven't you? Do you ever worry, Mark, that

16:37Alfie: and we don't know the answer to this but do you ever fear that what we're currently seeing in Welsh rugby is what steadily happened to West Indian cricket for example? That's a very interesting analogy, isn't it? I think probably not. The West Indies is the... Cricket's the only thing that brings the West Indies together as an entity. I mean, they're independent nations and I therefore think it's a... Again, you've got to be a little bit careful. It's geographically politically different. Absolutely. However, I do think there are some similarities. Countries' attachment to sports can change. God, I hope not, and I don't think it will.

17:14But professionalism has made it very hard for small countries. It's a very interesting sort of analogy, that West Indian cricket. I am a glass-house-full sort of guy, and I do feel that you will, eventually you will come out the other side and I do remember some very, very dark days previously. Again, I can remember when the Wales team fought against each other in an aftermatch function in Australia. You're way too young to remember that. That sounds great. Do you not remember that? Oh, look that one up, okay? That was quite extraordinary and that was at the time. What's this, 80s? 80s, yeah, late 80s and Wales had pretty much lost their whole team, and I do mean their whole team.

17:59Everybody just went, the whole team disappeared. And if you really want to go back, you want to go back to the 1920s when 700 Welsh rugby players went north when the economic depression came to Wales earlier than it came to the rest of the country. So we've seen, I'm trying to put this into context, I'm sorry for the non-Welsh listeners, we've been through some tough times before and the game has always come through i've got one thought for you to end off this section which is maybe related to the fiji argument i know totally different situations countries and everything is is there going to be a point where it almost feels like there's a moral duty for the sport to help wales but i.e rugby union as a whole can't afford to have one of its great nations, of which we've only got 10, 12, who are genuinely good to die.

18:55And so, for example, the RFU or English rugby, whatever, however you term that, go, actually, this is bad for us. This is bad for everybody. It's hard because you look at Welsh rugby union's revenue against other unions in the world, it's not very low. They've just got an extraordinary number of mouths to feed. They've got a lot of clubs. They have. There's huge numbers of clubs in Wales. Hoisted by their own petard there, because they love it so much, and they've got too many to look after. In a little way, but I know what you're saying, and certainly it's very hard. What would Argentina say?

19:34Argentina don't have any of their players at home. Every single Argentinian player plays outside the country, and what have they done? Well, what they've done is now they've got four regional teams who are very, very good and play against one from Uruguay, one from Chile and that South American sort of super rugby type of thing, I think it's very hard to see who would step in because I'm not sure is a... Yes, money's very, very tight, but not as tight as in some other markets and some other countries. And I... No, I don't think... I think I thought it was a good question, but I think the answer's no.

20:16And I guess the other side of it, a bit like the Argentina thing, is that Italy could well go, well, we were losing 30-plus Six Nations matches in a row, no-one helped us, and Samoa are like, look at all of our issues in politics and governance, and no-one helped us. Why would you just suddenly help Wales and not everyone else? Not true about Samoa, actually. They do get a bit of that, but I take your point.

20:35Alfie: Well, so many questions for the game in Wales. The questions in terms of on the pitch is that their opening match of the men's Six Nations is at Twickenham against England. We'll be looking ahead to that next week. But no doubt all of this stuff in the background, all the politics is going to keep bubbling away and we'll do our best to keep you across it on the pod. And of course, in the paper and online as well. Quick break up next. We'll get into the Prem Rugby action over the weekend. This episode of The Ruck is sponsored by Allianz. Beyond the Allianz Stadium, Allianz are committed to making rugby more inclusive, visible and accessible for all.

21:08Alfie: Through their Allianz Future Fund, Allianz has already invested over£100 ,000 in community clubs across the UK, supporting initiatives which bring more people into the game. They're also reaching 5 ,000 schools through the Allianz Kickstart programme, introducing the game of rugby to kids who've never played before. Check out the show description box for the link to nominate your rugby club for an Allianz Future Fund grant today. This is Indomitian Su from the No Free Lunch podcast. Ever feel like your workload is out of control? Like you're wearing every hat and expect it to be everywhere at once?

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23:16Alfie: Things people love.

23:22Alfie: So the final round of Prem action until after the Six Nations, so it's not until March that the division returns. It's that part of the season where it's very, very stop-start and some fascinating results over the weekend. But I wanted to start, Mark, with another one of your former clubs off the pitch. We can say Saracen's thumping win against Newcastle on it. That wasn't the interesting thing last week, though, because not only did we have Jamie George confirming that he's going to retire at the end of the 2027 season, probably after the World Cup, we have Mark McCall stepping away, a man who's been so synonymous with that club, with the glory years.

23:53Alfie: it's been just 15 years hasn't it that he is going to be departing he's still going to be around technical advisor he'll be there in an advisory capacity and on the board and stuff but he's going to be stepping away from his current role and Brendan Venter is returning quitting his job as a doctor again to come back and save Saris is that back to the future isn't it did you cross paths with Brendan Venter I know Brendan when he was at London Irish he took over at Saris and I was not long later left Quinn so not sort of directly. I mean, a lot of time for Brendan. I think he's a really hell of a rugby brain and he loves that club and I think it'll be seamless, if I'm honest.

24:35The McCall element of it's fascinating because Owen Slott wrote a really good piece about this on the weekend, which tried to sort of sum up his kind of like dual legacies at Saracens where you've got all these trophies, incredible success, and the way he helped England so much by coaching these brilliant players from Owen Farrell to the Vuna Polars and Jamie George, Maritoji and all those guys we know about, George Cruz, you could keep naming millions of them daily, etc, etc, etc. But then there's also this other side that never really got addressed, which was the whole involvement or otherwise in the salary cap saga, which he was right in the middle of.

25:10And I'm not saying that meant that he was part of it, i.e. it was his fault. I'm just saying that he was the director of rugby of a coach who broke the salary cap regularly and nothing stuck to him. and it was remarkable, wasn't it? At the time, and it's interesting now, that it never gets brought up at all. And people might be listening to this or watching this and saying, oh God, he's only just gone and the one thing he reached for again is the salary cap. But isn't that fascinating that you've dealt with this over in Australia, haven't you, in rugby league with Melbourne Storm? It's weird how the coach often doesn't get the rap that the owners and everyone else do.

25:44It's funny, isn't it? As I don't know, Mark, and you have to admire what he's done there. I mean, there is an asterisk. There has to be, because it went on for so long. And that was quite clear. But people feel a bit, and I do too, feel a bit awkward about rehashing that. I thought Owen's article was excellent. Because on the other hand, you know, he's had a remarkable reign. And the consistency. And I, of course, I was at that club for 20 years. So about a long, long time ago. I think the most impressive thing about it all has been their, we've talked about it again, how important it is, Pathways.

26:24Their Pathways and Development programmes have been absolutely outstanding. They really have and continue to be. That group they've got coming through, I mean, everyone talks about Calori, but there are a lot of them, the Bracken boys, there's four or five others. Ollie Hartley's one they're excited about. They are going to be a real golden generation, and they've now done that. Three times? Three times? Yeah. I think not far off. Maybe the middle group were not quite as good as the 08 crew. Maybe not. I mean, you've got to take a little bit of a dip every now and again, haven't you? Yeah. And that comes down to the guy largely at the top.

27:00But I think their record in terms of player development and pathways has been terrific. From an area that is not exactly a rugby heartland. It's not bad, but it's not. It's not absolutely... They get all the way down to Kent as well, don't they? 90 more. 90 more. No, no. But they have produced and developed. That's the key thing. Developed and grown a whole heap of players. And for that, he should take a great deal of credit.

27:30Alfie: Can I take you from one former club, Mark, to another one in Queens? No, do you have to? Well, unfortunately, we've spoken about them so much on the pod in the last few weeks. I know. Again, it's just the classic. You go away to La Rochelle, what an unbelievable victory. And then at home against Leicester. They almost got nilled but scored a late try. 34-7. What do you make of what's going on at Harlequins at the moment? Are you going to put me in a difficult position here now? I've got some... I'm very close to the club emotionally and I've never spoken about them publicly in any kind of serious way.

28:02I think it's fair to say they're in a very, very difficult position and it seems to have come quite quickly and that's... What is it? It's like when banks go bust. how the banks go bust very very slowly and then all of a sudden bang it's a bit like that i wasn't absolutely convinced that the la rochelle victory would be the turning point and i actually haven't seen the game i've been in paris this weekend watching rassin play leon so i actually haven't watched the game yet but you were there weren't you will i read the report and it wasn't very it wasn't very pretty was it no and look some of there's some context here where and he i think he saying it but Jason Gilmore earlier in the season before Christmas wrote off the Prem campaign so if that's in the minds of the players and they just go well hang on we've qualified for a last 16 in Europe that's the only thing we're focusing on now and then you've got a one-off game hanging in the Prem against Tigers and you go what's this for they look so meek again and like Freddie Stewart there's one example Freddie Stewart ran a really nice line for fullback through midfield and scored a good try, but there was no attempt to tackle him at all.

29:09He ran through Sam Riley, the hooker, and Harry Williams, the prop. It was a good bit of identification of probably the people who were least likely to tackle him, but it was a turnstile job. It was a giving up. And then actually, to be fair to them, very loyal support Harlequins, sell out every week, they just said, I'm having enough here and I'm going to get on the A316 and go home. At least 10 minutes before the end of the game, thousands I would say of fans were gone you don't see that and that is very bad news you did actually, it's happened before 2004 no, no they never walked out in 4-5 no I was your ball boy at that point yeah well the gown was being redeveloped there weren't enough people to walk out it happened around 2014 when John Kingston's regime was coming to an end that started to happen and it's a very, very bad sign for any club.

30:05If the supporters start to... They're making a statement, aren't they? Yeah. And what I would say... And they pay a lot of money. I mean, all clubs. No, no, Quintz is expensive. It's very expensive. It's South West London. It's expensive. And I thought Jason Gilmore said the right thing. Yeah, he said, I won't begrudge that. We're not giving them enough to stay for it. And I also think what he said, what you were referring to, really, don't you think of that influence what Alex Sanderson said this weekend about sale when he said, well that's our playoff chances done but that's not the end of our season I reckon he'd read the script on that one

30:37Alfie: Mark you might have been away for a while but you knew exactly where I was heading for the next part of the pod which was on to sail because I was there on Saturday evening oh you were there yeah I was there and what's the feel like there? I think not as bad as Quinn's at the moment but I think a massive sense of deflation on this pod I predicted sail I think to win Simon Massey-Taylor CEO said they were going to win the title maybe hopefully because he wanted a different winner again yeah I think so but I think you look at Sale now and as you say Alex Sanderson before the game I mean they had this as their do or die match they rested all those players for to lose to give them an 8-9 day run up to this game 29-43 which actually the final scoreline was too late tries yeah it was wider than it was it was actually a really good game it was quite tight wasn't it until the last quarter yeah Pollock did what he did came on load of energy scored a try he is fast isn't he that was a great finish do you know the other thing as well actually was it's almost the first time, I think because at England games, for example, we're in the middle tier, so you're not right down pitch side, but it's the first time I saw post-match.

31:37Alfie: It must have been over 100 young kids just shouting Pollock, Pollock, because he was going down the top, desperate for an autograph, and the Pollock factor for younger kids, for sure, saw that in abundance. But I think from Sale, I wondered whether now, I mean, does it all become Champions Cup? They're not a particularly high... And get to their plan. I know. Yeah, the bald men fighting over a cove, isn't it? Yeah, but it is, isn't it? Well, one of them's winning that game and going to Leinster for a pop. Look, Leinster are not the Leinster world. No, they're not. So there's a chance, but neither team are getting the best out of their squad.

32:13I think the sale thing is, because what have they done? Four playoffs in a row, have I got that right? Plus a final. Including a final. And the narrative was all about one last push, wasn't it? but we've got to make another final, we've got to win one. And therefore, their expectations, I think, were probably higher.

32:34Alfie: Which is interesting because I think when you compare the sales squad now to the team that reached the Prem Finals, I think it, personally, I think it is much weaker. And I know Simon Orange, the owner, came out when all the fans were upset that Rafi Quirk is heading to Newcastle and said, I think we're going to have a better squad next year. Well, they're signing people like Marchant, aren't they? He's coming back. Yeah, and I think they may well, but recruitment... Nicky Smith. Yeah, they signed Nicky Smith. That is a massive signing. That is a really, really... Where do you think the big differences are then between the team that went to the final and made all this and now?

33:04Alfie: I think they've lost power in their pack. I think you look at Van der Merwe as a hooker, a really good operator, a couple of the Dupree boys. Ewan Ashman was on the bench, wasn't he, a few years ago? I know Manu didn't necessarily ever play his best stuff at sale, but there was still more power in that midfield. I think they've lost power. Okay, that's interesting because you look at making the comparison between the two teams you look at the Quinns team that won it in 21 and the teams in that, they're night and day I mean look at the front row I mean the Quinns front Marla, Lowe with Collier Marla, Lowe and Collier, I mean wow look at that front row and then like Scott Baldwin Scott Baldwin and Joe Gray and a bunch of young hookers behind them that was a serious front row that won that title and at the moment You don't know what's happening with the Quinns in the front row at the moment.

33:54They lose Finn Baxter and they're looking a bit shaky. I can see where that team's changed. I struggle a little bit more, but you're probably right. But doesn't it show you it's not much? Oh, no, it's not. Because I go down the Slayle team every week because I'm such a Norse. And I go, actually, you know what? It's a good team.

34:15Alfie: It's by no means a bad team. On Saturday evening, I think their starting 15 was really strong. but when you compared it with Northampton, Northampton had Furbank on the bench, Pollock on the bench. They just had a little bit more in terms of punch off the bench, whereas for sale, Aaron Reid was back from injuries, obviously an international, but there's a few academy guys that are earning their stripes, I suppose. Injuries has been an issue. Of course. Like, they don't get Tom Curry very often through the season. He was both wicking. He hobbled off as well, but he always hobbles off. Ben Curry has not been fit.

34:48That's true of a lot of teams. Look at Bristol. how they've come through I mean they've got probably the smallest senior squad in the league and they've had a pile of injuries I mean what they've done I mean that's another one on the weekend that was you wouldn't have put you'd have lost a lot of money on the spread wouldn't you well I felt I felt so so brilliant having done gone down to Exeter last week and done the inside the Chiefs revival they love playing in the wet and the rain and the cold and then oh hang on 3-8 but what I mean as a man from Bristol Alfie that is a great sign isn't it to the kind of like stereotype of the bristol bears would be the pretty fancy dan team who don't fancy up them enough 63 49 yay and then they do that in some of the most horrendous

35:32Alfie: conditions we've seen in a long time which is interesting as well by the way on bristol because i saw this morning in terms of tri bonus points this year so bristol have won eight of their 10 games they've got five tri bonus points which is actually quite a lot less than a number of other teams so even though they are that team obviously i think with brit i still don't quite know if they're going to be good enough to get over or get past say a Bath or Northampton who look like the two best teams but what is there at home well that's the thing if they get home semi-final then I think it changes it I would still whoever I think if they were to face either Bath or Northampton in a final then they wouldn't be the favorites I think the one thing I would say for Bristol this year is that is a I think there is more of a steeliness to them which I think goes into the the injuries they dealt with going they've had the best Champions Cup Heineken Cup pool stage their reward for that is an away trip they're very grateful for I think they're harder I think they're tougher they're more resilient I think they've been super impressive to be sat after 10 games having won 8 of them I'm just not quite sure whether it's going to be enough to get silver a bit like sale in a different way the thing that they've not done is win massive games at the end of the season they're good enough through the season and they can get into semi-finals but then they lose the semi they've never made a final have they?

36:42do you think the top 4 is done? So at the moment, wow, Chief's just dipping out of it. So we've got Saints, Bath, Bristol, Tigers. I do. Do you reckon that settles? I think that's it. Eight games to go. I think that's it. I think I should top four. OK. That's a terribly ridiculous prediction, isn't it? But I've got to make it. No, I love it. Just for fun. You're now on YouTube, so people can clip that up. Also, you said at the top of the pod that you're more measured now. That's what you've learned. Yeah, I am. I'm more measured about the game as a whole, but I'm still a fan when it comes to the country predictions.

37:10I just look at those four teams now, and I didn't think this at the beginning of the year I think people are underestimating Leicester I look at that team and think when they're all fit they're a very well balanced size Do you know what, if this is the top four at the end of the season absolute marketing dreamland for the Prem because they'll have Saints Tigers and Bath Bristol Fix the draw now, right? The two derbies Stop the count

37:34Alfie: That Bath Bristol one was so much fun at the end of last season Frank's Gardens will be Friday night East Midlands Derby. If they could just get Bristol at fourth and Bath at first and then take them to two huge stadiums, it'd be brilliant. Well, at some point, they do want to do what the French do and take the semis to a neutral location and play them on the same weekend. But they need to come up with a financial formula that works because obviously if Bath at home semi or Northampton do, they get a nice little extra boost to the gate. It'll be a real sign of the confidence of the league when they choose to do that.

38:11where would you choose to go if it was your as the man who invented the big game you'd have to do it early so you don't want to go suddenly and go let's go to a 70 ,000 seat of stadium because you don't know who you're going to get in the semi so I'd probably start it off at somewhere like a couple of 35 Brighton Brighton would be a decent one Milton Keynes difficultly you've got football season still going so availability is going to be tricky but I just think and I'd double header it probably on the same day I'd put it on the same day to start with. I just think it's a real growth sign. And, of course, it won't make money or any extra money in the first couple of years.

38:51That's not the point. Are you confident enough that this will stand alone? Are we confident about our league and our sport that you can confidently take it to a neutral venue and be pretty sure you're going to sell it out? That's like a big festival day. And then, in five, ten years' time after that, you take it to a bigger stadium. We'll see. Maybe people should email in Alfie and say, what stadium would you pick?

39:13Alfie: I think you've got to put it kind of Midlands, like middle of the country. Villa? Villa's quite big though, isn't it? 50 odd thousand. I don't know, but something like that, I think. The other thing as well is it would also depend on the teams you get, wouldn't it? No, you can't wait. You can't wait. No, I know you can't. You've got to put your stake in the ground. I know, but then I suppose this comes back to your point of how confident are you in the shape of your league. If we got, for example, those semi-finals at the moment, if the league stayed the same, great. But if it's a year where if Newcastle, Red Bull are coming through, smaller fan base, the sale, smaller fan base, then it becomes a bit more tricky, doesn't it?

39:46Alfie: Well, the fact is you have to create the event that people, even from the smaller clubs, will go. Which they do to the final now. They do, and I still remember, was it Brian Kennedy, when the sale went to the final one in 2006? Was it 2006? Yeah. And, you know, there were 20 ,000, 25 ,000 sale fans. Well, they only get 6 ,000, 7 ,000 every week. People will go for an event. You've got to create an event. It's whether you pick a rugby heartland or not. Would you pick somewhere that's different? Like Birmingham, for example. Would you say, well, let's put it there and try and attract different people, new people?

40:19Or would you go, let's go south-west, let's go London? I think you pick two. If you do it in two grounds, let's say. I know I said do a double. You pick two grounds, you stick with them for three years and you create some consistency. You build it as the thing that's always there.

40:32Alfie: Right, we're rattling through, so we'd better leave the prem there. If you do want to send us an email, by the way, as Will suggested, then the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Up next, we'll finish off by looking back on the England squad for the Six Nations that Steve Borthwick named on Friday. So, Will, Steve Borthwick has named his England squad for the Six Nations. The Six Nations England are coming into in the best position they have done for absolutely ages, very much in the title conversation. And the props were the headline. Not always that the props were the headlines, but that was the headline out of the squad selection, which we suspected it would be because of the injuries to Will Stewart, Ashropoku for Jordan.

41:08Yeah so we're giving ourselves a little pat on the back because we said it'll be Trevor Davison and Billy Seller and tick tick so we're right on that front. I thought actually Ben Urbano might nick in ahead of Manny Iyoga but I think there's maybe some thoughts of can Ben Urbano last longer in games than he can at Prem level. So Manny Iyoga gets the extra slot on the loose head side with Bevan Rod underneath Ellis Genge and there's a rehab list which is very interesting because it's got five guys on it who are kind of touch and go for that Wales game so that's Finn Baxter, Ben Curry, Olly Lawrence, Tom Roebuck, Finn Smith, all of whom you'd have in a 23.

41:42Ben Curry started in the last Six Nations. We've kind of forgotten about him because Guy Peppers come through, Pollock's come through and everything else. But yeah, really cool for Billy Seller. I'm trying to gain more info about him this week for a nice background piece. And I was chatting to someone this morning about him who's saying that he was desperate to be a back row. And like Fijian heritage, army heritage, he wants to play with the ball. Apparently amazing hands. you haven't seen. I tried to get him to Drew. Yeah, you wanted to get him to Fiji. I did, yeah. But he's an English boy. You know, his dad.

42:10Wooden Bassett, I think. His dad was in the army. I mean, Fiji's a small place. Everyone knows, you know, I've got people, oh, I know his dad, I'll ring him in. But he was quite clear that, in fact, I did suggest to, is it Rob, the recruitment guy at Bath? Rob Burgess, yeah. Yeah, why don't you send him down here for a year? This is two years ago. Okay. A year ago? Not now, but when he was sitting behind, at one point he looked to be fourth choice at Bath. He was fourth choice title. I said, look, I'll be honest, mate, he'd get in our team. He could play four months of Super Bowlby and come back.

42:41He'd be a much better player. And why did he not? I never quite know whether Johan just got an injury or whatever. That's proven now. Well, yeah, but this was last year for the 25 season. And I think probably England, he was in the under-20s and they wanted him to go to the World Cup. It just didn't. There was no interest. I thought it was quite clever. So he gets a chance. He is some player.

43:06Alfie: And Stuart Barnes thinks he should start. That's part of the thing for Borthwick. You've got Wales first up at home, so what does he do with his squad in building towards that game against France on the final weekend, and how he gives new players opportunities? The one thing he can't do, or he could, but it would mean his starters would be very inexperienced, is do the full POM squad thing that he did in the autumn. He can with the back row, because he's still got all of those guys available, but he can't in props because he doesn't have Stuart, he doesn't have Baxter yet probably for the first game so he's gonna have to start again you'd think in that Wales game because Rod and then a Yogan that's a big drop off and then that's an issue there about the last 20 minutes because that's when all these games are going out to the white albeit on form you'd say it won't do that in the Wales game and then you get Baxter back for Scotland and that's huge but on the tight head side Hayes has been in brilliant form has really become a proper international class tight head he was excellent against the all blacks wasn't he they were smashing some of those scrums so again dependent on how you order your props he's the front line guy whether that means he starts or ends the game is something to get into but the one thing i thought was really interesting alfie when we spoke to borswick on friday is that this is a man who never speaks about a match beyond the next one and unprompted he was spooling forward to the France match.

44:27Yeah, what was all that? I saw that. It was remarkable. Completely out of character. But does that show the confidence that he's got now? 11 wins in a row. Last defeat was a whole year ago now to Ireland. He was saying, I want England fans to flood over the channel to France to come and watch us. And he didn't use the extra bit that was in square brackets that was to try and win a title in a Grand Slam. But that's what he meant. It was a clear strategic thing to mention. it wasn't like we've pulled the answer out of him he wanted to say that still a bit out of character though isn't he? very out of character because through his whole Tiger's career people used to tear their hair out when they'd go on runs of 15 in a row and he would just be like it's all about the next one correct it's all about the next one and he's right and I thought he might do it internally you know alright guys this year well I think he did and then said it publicly why do it publicly?

45:14I'm really surprised by that I'm glad he did because it got us a nice piece of the paper but do you know what? I like it I like it and I've seen fans already when we put the story up going like I'm bookmarking this for March when they're not on for it and everything else and arrogant England and I'm like England are at their best when they're chest out and they go come on everyone have a pop at us then let's go for it and then wear it like I like and it's he's not this guy that you would expect to be delivering that message because he's not Ellis Genge for example or coaches on years gone by but I actually quite like the fact that England are coming into this tournament going like yeah we should win this tournament we're in a good position why not it's been far too long it's been 10 years years since they won a slam which also ended in france and it's been six years since they won a title and that was on bonus points with covid in the way so that's sort of a was that a proper title in verticomers so i don't mind it i quite like that i'm not mind i'm just very surprised yeah i was surprised by that as well i think they're nervous about murrayfield though and rightly so because they haven't won there even though scotland aren't that hot at the moment that's a massive game in week two i would say that'll be defining for the whole tournament

46:20Alfie: And we will be there for it, which will be good fun. The other one as well, which I know England have never lost to Italy, but I always think about that record. It has to end at some point, and Italy are really good. Yeah. And I know England are at the moment as well, but I always think... Any team in Men and Cheleman, we're enjoying them. There's always a danger you overlook that. That centre combination is fantastic. I think they're excellent. We need to finish off. I want to finish on an email, but just to flag, do go online and catch up with a lot of the writing that's been happening around the Six Nations.

46:46Alfie: Sam Warburton, in his column, has been chatting about England's squad depth. Alex Lowe has been writing about the number 12 position and all the options for Steve Borthwick. And John Westerby has got a piece looking at Henry Pollock as well. So loads of stuff already there and coming your way. But let me finish with the email from Greg who said, Gents, looking at the England squad, I was interested in your view on how player form, club form, translates into England performance. Several players selected are in poor to average form by their standards individually and or they're playing for poorly performing clubs.

47:17Alfie: The best examples of this are George Ford and Marcus Smith. Another example is Mara Toje and Oli Chesson. In your experience, how does club form play out in the first game of an international block? I defer to the guy who's actually coached the team. Club form gets you into the team. Let's be clear. If you're a young player coming through, it's a very, very occasionally you can do it out of the age group system, but it's quite unusual. But Pollock sort of did. And to a degree, Salah has, because he's played a lot more for England age group than he's played for Bath. So a precocious youngster, maybe.

47:52But most players get into the national teams, wherever they are, by playing well for their club. But once you're in the squad and you've built up a body of work and you've gained confidence of the coach and you're getting older and your body is not quite as supple and dynamic as it used to be, let's say, then you've got other things to bear in mind and it's interesting I mean I never quite I'm going to make it a Fiji comment I never appreciated it until at the Drew we were such a young team and as the seasons went on it became clear that was a weakness and our age balance and our experience balance was just out of whack there wasn't much we could do about it because that's what we were working with it was going to take a few years but at an international level where you've got, it's a selection issue.

48:42You do give credit to players who've done it before. It's a difficult one because at some point, I thought I was watching this weekend, I was watching Racing Lyon, and I think, and you see Gael Ficou's been dropped? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I could see why. Yeah. Partly there's a huge number of incredibly talented young centres coming through in France. There's about five of them. But actually, and he scored a wonderful try as well. by no means a completely busted flush, but there were bits about his game you thought that we're going, yeah, I can sort of see it really. And that's a very difficult judgment call from the coach.

49:19But for quite a while, you know, the whole test match animal thing, I'm not quite sure I buy that, but I do buy the fact that you've got credit in the bank, you've got a body of work and you can't turn it on 30 games this season. Not that hardly any players play 30 games this season. I think it depends who you're talking about. doesn't it because someone like Ben Earl maybe has not been tearing up for Saracens every week but when he's been playing for England he's always man of the match so you kind of go well that's the credit in the bank you're talking about and similarly George Ford's not playing in a very good sale team as we've been talking about but when he's been playing for England he's been excellent and he's been firing that back line that's been doing well in Argentina and then through the autumn so credit in the bank there the one I think there's a couple where you go definite form pick for Fizalau for example yeah he's been tearing up for Chiefs been excellent there deserves his call and then another one on the other side you go you can't say that Chandler Cunningham South for example is in good form but he's in because of the other things he does that other people can't do when he is in form so like of all those back row guys he's the guy who's probably the most adept in the line out and they don't have many line out options in the back row so he probably stays on that front whereas if you're looking at on paper you'd go he's maybe not one of the best seven back row at the moment, but he's got that thing that other people don't have.

50:38So there's reasons there, I guess.

50:40Alfie: Well, it always has to be a balance, right? Because otherwise, if you're only picking on club form every single time, then how much would your international... It would just change so much. ...trump and change all the time. There'd be no continuity. And I'm sure a few club coaches would tell you, if they were honest, but probably only after the player had left the club, you do also get the situation where, after a certain number of years, when a certain type of player plays far, far better for the country than he does for his club. and that's also a difficult one to manage as well because they start to see themselves as...

51:11A test player. I'm an England player. Yeah. Who plays for... But actually, I was going to say that. They formalise that now because of the enhanced EPS. Yeah, yeah, true. So I know, for example, that Tom Roback's probably been close enough to... he could have played in the last few weeks, but England are pulling him back to say, get you into Girona, and then we'll give you a week and a half of training and get you ready for Wales. don't worry about Toulouse, Northampton. And they now have the power to do that because they're in charge of selection for some of these elite 25.

51:40Alfie: So we're actually starting to see it work out. Fellas, we'd better leave it there because time is against us. But, Mark, pleasure to have you back with us in our fancy studio. Well, thank you for the invitation. It was highly enjoyable. How are you enjoying being back on British shores more consistently as we sit here in miserable January? We get the Six Nations around the corner, so that's something to... Yeah, lighten the winter darkness. Exactly. No, look, I miss it to a degree, and I'm delighted to be back at one and the same time. You can't have everything. I've been very lucky, so we'll see.

52:11Alfie: Well, it's great to have you back on. It worked out well with the chaos in Welsh. I was going to say, if you're a region or a club in crisis, here's your man. I wish there are a few. Take your pick, Mark. And, Will, we're pretty much into Six Nations. Next week's Monday pod will be our big Six Nations preview, and then from that point on it's going to be Thursday pods looking ahead to the games and podding after all the England matches. And if people didn't realise, which maybe they haven't because we know more people tune in at this time of year than in other parts of the year, the Six Nations are a week shorter.

52:41So we don't have that annoying gap where you have two games, one break, you know, one match. It's just one. So we go, just from an England perspective, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, bang, bang, bang. Break, Italy, France, done. And we're going to be on YouTube videoing all across the nations it's gonna be great doing our best looking forward to it appreciate

53:02Alfie: you listening do send us an email know loads of you will be wanting to get in touch throughout the six nations as well so just a reminder the email address is the ruck at the times.co.uk and we'll be back with you for our six nations preview next monday thanks for listening to the ruck before you go a final word on the work allianz is doing behind the scenes we often talk Talk about the stars of the Gallagher Prem or the national side, but we all know these journeys start at local community clubs. That's why Allianz is launching a special edition of the Allianz Future Fund, created specifically for you, our listeners.

53:37Alfie: Allianz is offering grants ranging from£500 to£1 ,000 to help make rugby more inclusive and sustainable. Whether your local club needs a new kit or better facilities to help today's young players become tomorrow's heroes, this is your chance to help them out. Your move. Sign up for the Allianz Future Fund now to nominate your local rugby club. Let's support the clubs that shape the future of the game.