Women's Rugby World Cup final preview!

0:00Alfie: Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast, which is currently sponsored by IBM. IBM has worked with Wimbledon for more than 30 years, helping the championships use data and AI to create more engaging digital experiences for fans. That includes tools like Match Chat, which can answer questions during play, and Likelihood to Win, which uses live match data to offer near real-time predictions. It's a practical example of AI in action, helping fans follow the tournament more closely while showing how organizations can turn data into useful insight. To learn more about how IBM helps create smarter business, visit ibm.com.

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1:33Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. With one more game to go, the Women's World Cup final this weekend. England facing Canada. What a tantalising match that is. An incredible story for Canada to even get to this point. England with a chance to exercise the demons of World Cups past. It's Alfie here alongside Elgin, sat on the banks of the River Thames, Elgin. What a lovely setting this is.

2:01Elgan: It's a lovely sunny day and on our walk over here you even walked past a crab, which we weren't expecting, but hopefully we'll see no crabbing across from either team on Saturday at Twickenham.

2:11Alfie: Yeah, that was not a joke. A live crab on the path here. I have no idea how it got here, but we are at the Lensbury, which is where England are going to be doing their media later on today. We've just been walking through the hotel and seen plenty of World Rugby execs, all of the Red Roses team, the backroom staff. It feels busy. It feels like we're in World Cup final week.

2:29Elgan: Yeah, all of World Rugby is here, as we've seen. It's a big week for just rugby in England. We've got the Gallagher Prem starting on Thursday. The fixtures leaving that Saturday clear for the bronze final first and then the World Cup final at 4pm at Twickenham. So it's a big weekend for men's, women's rugby in England. and yeah greatly looking forward to it massive weekend for rugby as you say we'll get into all

2:52Alfie: of that i will be chatting to rocky clark later in the podcast second most capped england player of all time she was the first until sarah hunter came along and stole her record but i think particularly elgin i'm really i enjoyed chatting to rocky because it's really good i think to speak to red roses of the past in a week like this because of how significant as you say it is not just for rugby in england but for women's rugby in england and the red rose is a really special day I would imagine it's going to be on Saturday for all of those that have worn the Red Roses jersey previously.

3:21Elgan: From every former Red Rose I've spoken to they tell me that the WhatsApp groups are always vibrant but they've been especially vibrant the last few weeks as people have been traveling all around England watching their team you've got people overseas as well in New Zealand Red Roses all around the world and the thing about these Red Rose heritage is you know all these players have their heritage numbers they know where they are in the the pecking order of the pantheon of all these red roses that have come before that are in the in the team now because women's international rugby is only not even but just over 40 years old it means that the entire span of it has been within sort of one lifetime one generation so they are just spread all over the world enjoying this world cup in in various different ways so they'll be feeling saturday and the occasion that it will be more than more than anyone really because they know what it was like 30 years ago when things were pay-to-play or driving around England looking for fixtures not being allowed in clubhouses all the various stories you hear about what it was like for women

4:19Alfie: playing rugby over the past 40 years yeah and wind it forward to this weekend 82 ,000 at Twickenham the final that England are involved in I teed it up before Elgin when I said that it's an incredible story for Canada to even get to this point I find it a fascinating matchup on the weekend because it's on the one hand it's the number one and number two ranked teams in the world it's first first second on form they're the two teams that should get to this point but I then look at the Red Roses who as we know have been the most professional best funded side in women's rugby for a long long time and you've got a Canada team for as good as they are have had to self-fund to

4:54Elgan: even get here and they find themselves in a World Cup final yeah I was speaking to Stephanie White who's Sophie de Goody's mum a former Canada captain herself on Monday morning and I asked about that this paradox almost that canada are the second best team in the world in a world cup final and yet are also viewed as some sort of plucky underdog and canada bulk at that suggestion the reason being that though they they estimate their funding as being a tenth of what the red roses have stephanie sophie's mum was at pains to say that you know this million dollar fundraising target which is the target everyone has been talking about for the last few weeks it wasn't some sort of cap-in-hand players you know looking around for crowdfunding money what it was was the head coach Kevin Rouet was asked what he needed to win the World Cup he told them what they needed to win the World Cup the budget came in and they were a million short so Rugby Canada thereafter said right we will try and fill that shortfall for you and they've been able to do that and they've been able to grow into this tournament like we say they were number two in the world even before this tournament you've got more than half the squad do play professionally around the world in England and France, but then you've also got some amateur players based in Canada playing for these clubs.

6:02Elgan: And yet the collective, some of the individual players they have, which are brilliant and add to a great sum of their parts, means that they greatly deserve their place in the final. We've spent much of this World Cup talking about what it would mean from a narrative standpoint if it were England against New Zealand in the final. And we haven't got there because of the brilliance of Canada and the way they did for the Black Ferns in a way that most nations have never have been able to do at the World Cup.

6:26Alfie: Yeah absolutely coming on to that performance on Friday in just a moment because as you say it was absolutely outstanding totally blitzed them in that first half. I find it really interesting though that you say there Canada almost balk at the suggestion that they're underdogs just from the point of view of I'm so accustomed to teams loving being the underdogs for big games we see it all the time where teams are trying to talk down their chances and be the underdog and try and really buy into that narrative of no one expects us to win and that is there for Canada they could absolutely buy into to that whole idea that they're the underdogs and they can say when everyone's writing us off and the Red Roses have all this funding let's build that narrative ahead of the final so I'm interested that they're always not

7:06Elgan: doing that at all yeah I mean the name of that fundraising campaign was called Mission Win Rugby World Cup they were never going to call it Mission Get to the Final and Lose to the Red Roses were they because for them you know they've given England a really good go a year ago at WXV they were leading into the final quarter that is just about I think as late as England have come to actually taking a lead in a match and that was without Sophie de Goody who has emerged once again as their talisman nominated on the three women shortlist for world 15's player of the year a lot of the talk before the semi-finals was how New Zealand as they often do improving in the world cup turning small defeats before a world cup into large victories but what we actually saw in that semi-final was Canada turning a three-point victory against the Black Ferns in a previous match follow them by a draw in this year's pack four into a 15-point win so they've improved as well on that matchup from pre-world cup so as we've seen you know if they've given England a good go in previous games they are well primed now to potentially give them an even better game

8:07Alfie: yeah I suppose it's more the fact that I'm not saying that they should embrace being the underdog because they're not good enough to win or cause the Red Roses problems but I think rugby is one One of those sports that I feel teams often really benefit from being the underdog. I think you often see teams surpass expectations when people don't expect them to necessarily do anything. I think we see it time and time again. So that's why I'm interested that they really haven't done that.

8:29Elgan: We could compare that with England's approach throughout this World Cup. Because every week it's, so John Mitchell, head coach, how do you deal with being 70-point favourites for this match or whatever? And they've always made a big point every week at this World Cup of saying, we don't want to just be the hunted. we want to still go out there and hunt people so you've got England who go into every game with everyone expecting them to win trying to take the approach that no that isn't the case and then you've got Canada going into this game thinking we belong here we are in terms of on-field play England's rivals and potentially for them you know England's betters on the day so yes you've got both teams perhaps trying to invert what everyone else is expecting yeah all right on to the

9:09Alfie: semi-finals how impressive were Canada I mean if they played the best rugby at this World Cup I I thought they were exceptional against the Blackbirds.

9:16Elgan: I think unquestionably the speed at which they play, which first really jumped out at me in the quarterfinals. The way in which they do that pick-and-go game really caught my eye. And then they've just kept that rapid-fire attack going. And I think the thing with the Red Roses is they are such a bulldozing machine that it's sometimes difficult, with the exception maybe of their maul and scrum, to sort of pinpoint the actual thing that sets them apart because they are so ruthlessly good at everything. Whereas with this Canada team, it really jumps out. Their ruck speed and their ability to just attack quickly.

9:51Elgan: And it might give England something that they haven't quite faced before. England's defence has coped very well with everything they've faced thus far. But perhaps this Canadian speed and attack might cause them something that they haven't yet had to deal with in the final. And you'd think that's what Canada will be pinning their hopes on once again, just trying to run the Red Roses off the park in defence.

10:11Alfie: performance how concerned were you for England I thought at halftime in that game I thought it was set up really nicely and I was sat there thinking I could absolutely see England losing this now in the end France 17 England 35 it looks like quite a one-sided scoreline it was anything but that what did you make of England's performance in that semi-final I think it was a prime example of what

10:33Elgan: the Red Roses would say is them being tested people love to say you haven't been tested because you don't win games very often by five or six or seven points but they can I think legitimately say look France were in that game in the second half it was only 14-12 at a time getting into that second half and yet again they pulled away to win 35-17 we've talked before about how in rugby games you know scorelines can just sort of get away from you and the game can actually feel a lot closer than the scoreline finishes so I think everyone from a neutral standpoint enjoyed how much France gave it to the Red Roses but you know you have to say they did again find an answer to to win that match so while you might look even more so as it at it as a test if it had ended 18-17 or 19-17 it was still France giving them a really good go and England finding the answers.

11:22Alfie: Absolutely yeah I think you do have to give England credit and as you say their standards are so high that sometimes you can be jumping on things that aren't necessarily there when actually yes they were tested but they found those answers they ended up winning by a relatively comfortable scoreline and they're into the World Cup final which is where we expected them to get to do you think though for the first time at this World Cup we did see a bit of nerves I think we certainly for the first time saw a team in France really able to knock the Red Roses off their game yes they had the the answers to the questions that were posed to them but I think that's quite significant that we did see them

11:53Elgan: troubled and uncomfortable I think we've seen England perhaps stutter into most of their matches in front of big large crowds and you do have to remember that even though these large crowds are becoming the norm they are still new things for these players to experience we've seen them drop kick-offs and things like that throughout the tournament thus far and even though England have commanded a standalone fixture at Twickenham before and had 58 ,000 people there for that France Six Nations game two years ago we're looking now at 82 ,000 people at Twickenham for a World Cup final when the Red Roses for all of their talk about how we're tested in training we're tested in matches this is a breakthrough moment for the sport they still have to go out there and and win the thing in front of this big crowd and even though Canada certainly aren't experienced playing in front of 82 ,000 people England haven't done it before either so you've got 30 people going out in that field at the start of the match for an occasion that none of them have done before

12:50Alfie: There are plenty of unknowns. More from Elgin and I in just a moment, as we'll preview that final. Cannot wait for it on the weekend. Before that, though, I caught up with Rocky Clark, Red Roses legend, to preview the game and hear about her pretty impressive cycling challenge. Have a listen.

13:10Alfie: Well, Rocky, thanks so much for taking time out to chat to me, because where do I find you at the moment? Well, we are myself and the Golden Girls Rugby. We're four ex-internationals and we're doing a charity cycle ride for MMD for Ed. So raising vital funds and we're doing all the Women's World Cup venues at the moment. So we've done Sunderland, York, Manchester, Northampton in the first leg. Second leg, we've gone down Exeter, Bristol. We're in Brighton. And then we've got, you know, the golden one. We're going to Allianz Twickenham Stadium tomorrow. So, yeah, busy, busy time. It's a bit painful, I'm not going to lie.

13:52And, yeah, doing silly things like throwing myself up and down hills. But it's to raise funds and hanging out with the Golden Girls, Tam Taylor, Donna Kennedy and Amy Garnett, all with 100 caps and more. It's pretty cool, yeah.

14:05Alfie: Well, I can imagine the four of you have been having good fun, but you say it's been pretty painful. How far have you covered them? What's the mileage and how are you feeling? oh yeah so we've um we did i think about 80 miles today uh 75 yesterday 75 day before and about 400 on the previous leg so yeah it's around about 700 750 i'll tell you what we've taken so many wrong turns though it's uh it's been uh crazy and unfortunately we got our garment stolen yesterday so it's not been without a few a few lows but mainly highs um but yeah we're having a great time yeah I can imagine is there any point in particular that has been the toughest if you had to say well um Amy Garnett's directions are pretty uh yeah I say directions is a is a bit kind but she's had us going across boggy fields and cabbage patches and down tow paths and yeah you feel feel like it's the end of the world but um and I've fallen off a couple of times as well so that was a that was a treat but soft landing and obviously you know I prepared myself ready for a ruck and uh just got ready I thought the others are going to ruck over but they all just laughed at me so you know got all your old mates there for it yeah well listen you sounds to me like you're going to be earning those pints that you have at Twickenham on Saturday for the Red Roses for a great cause as well so just where can people uh donate and all that sort of thing yeah amazing if people want to follow us uh we're on Instagram Golden Girls Rugby look us up four of the crazy old girls.

15:35And then obviously, if you want to follow me, Rocky Clark on the score one, and both of them have the links attached or you can text 70560 and then just put 4Ed and then you can choose how much you donate. So really appreciate anything. It's 4MMD and a massive cause close to our heart.

15:54Alfie: Well, brilliant, Rocky. Sounds like a brilliant effort. If I can turn our attention to the match on the weekend, the Women's World Cup final, England at Twickenham in front of a sellout, we suspected they would get there they have got there how much are you excited looking forward to what is a massive fixture in the history of the Red Roses and England women's rugby yeah this is absolutely huge you know we played them in the final in 2014 and we uh we got bragging rights and won the World Cup then and we've just seen how good Canada are and I I think a few people have had their heads turned uh to yeah canada canada are going to be a really tough outfit and um but the red roses have have put in some decent performances they're building they've gone for a you know a regular team now and they seem to have got that selection pretty much sorted so yeah it's going to be absolute fireworks at twickenham and i honestly i can't wait and one of the biggest things that is so special is obviously the support and the growth and you know how everybody's learning about rugby even if they're even if they're not rugby fans obviously Ilona Mars got a lot of interest as well brought a lot of people over and it's a fantastic game and you know Lionesses did so well people are realizing that women's sport is fantastic so it's going to be huge on Saturday and all those at Twickenham Sellout Stadium as well as it being on terrestrial TV you couldn't ask for more could you?

17:17Alfie: No I know is it one of those moments Rocky where I know you played for England with such pride for such a long period of time but you almost have to pinch yourself where the game has got itself to in terms of women's rugby from when you started playing it for England to we're talking about Twickenham and a sellout and the whole tour it's never been a question has it of will they be able to sell out the final it's like yeah obviously the final is going to be sold out because most of us expect England to get there like that journey are you able just to kind of speak about that and how that makes you feel yeah honestly I'm so proud of where where it's come from and where it's gone and you know I've stood on Giants shoulders of the women before who've um you who've uh paved the way for us for for my 15 year career and then you've seen the youngsters all getting their opportunities now and to play in front of sellout stadiums to be you know real really up there in the media is is absolutely massive and um getting the game out there so yeah i'm of course i'm a bit jealous it would have been amazing to run out to full stadiums every time you played when i first started at 15 at henley who had one man and his dog watching so So to then go to Twickenham, that's over 80 ,000, it's going to be incredible.

18:24I had such an emotional moment when I went out to watch both semifinals. I had like a sort of pinch myself moment because it was just so incredible. And I was just like, oh, this is amazing. And I'm so pleased that the game's gone there because it's incredible.

18:38Alfie: Well, I think one of the great things, it seems to me with the Red Roses, there is that real kind of pathway and leaving the jersey in a better place. And you talk about the players that came before you. and I know this generation of players will look at your generation. I think that will keep going. How important is Saturday generally for the Red Roses, Rocky? And how important is it for them to win? Outside of the fact it's a World Cup final, obviously it's important to win. But do you know what I mean in terms of the moment it could be for English rugby? Yeah, this could be absolutely huge for English rugby, of course.

19:11And you've only got to look at the support and everyone tuning in and the growing fan base, the brands that have got involved. It's so big. But yeah, we really need England to win. That would be the cherry on the cake. But certainly, I think women's rugby has changed forever now. And I think we're going to start seeing other nations. Well, if they don't, they should be backing their international teams. What I want is just to see competition. I don't want anyone winning 70-0 against a team. I want jeopardy. I want excitement. I want drama and you know we've seen two fantastic semi-finals and they're the kind of games that we want so it's massively important but also let's be proud of what we've already achieved and whatever happens on Saturday we're going to be incredibly proud I mean hopefully they're going to have their gold medal around their neck but it's paving the way for the future you know and that is so good to see where young kids boys or girls got their role models who they're who they're backing and certainly it's all about leaving the the jersey in a better place yeah and

20:16Alfie: just on that note of competition I mean we couldn't have almost two more contrasting sides in a way could we in in the final I know Canada are ranked second in the world in a really really good outfit I totally agree with what you were saying of they can cause the Red Roses problems but we've got one team that have basically had to do a go fund me to get themselves to the World Cup and in a World Cup final and then you've got the Red Roses who for a while now have been the most professional outfit that the best funded so yeah maybe just talk about Canada I mean what an unbelievable story and what a performance from them we saw in the semi-final Canada honestly I'm a massive fan they are incredible players I remember playing them sort of 15 20 years ago and I thought these these are going to be a massive team of the future they're really athletic they're fast they're skillful but they just needed to learn rugby a little bit more and they've done that now and And then you've got players like Sophie Degudi.

21:07She's one of my favourite players. Luckily enough, I played alongside her at Saracens. But she's an absolute role model. My fear is that people will go, well, they've done well enough without having the support. No, they need the support. It shouldn't be a GoFundMe page. It should be their names up in lights and they get all the support because they are a brilliant team. You know, you've got the likes of Corrigan just charging down the wing. Schnell is just it's honestly there's so many superstars in that in that team and half of them play in the PWR so they're used to playing against these English players so it's gonna be fireworks it really is.

21:45Alfie: Speaking of players that you know fairly well I've got to ask you about Meg Jones nominated for the world player of the year she's but look the Red Roses is stacked full of incredible players and athletes but she's one that stands out to me I think has been so consistent for this whole year and actually longer than that really but how pleased are you for her that she's getting that recognition and her performances in this World Cup absolutely warrant it? Oh I'm absolutely buzzing for her. She's a wonderful kid like a great personality on and off the pitch but her ability to change the game, how she stood out every game she played for Leicester Tigers, how she plays for England, honestly another name in lights for me.

22:28I'm so pleased for her she's had you know a tough couple of years but just to see her drive and her um just getting herself and everybody around her playing so well yeah she's brilliant and um little fun fact I actually used to live with her for a while so uh I know a few more secrets that I'm then I'm willing to share but she's um she's certainly dedicated and a great laugh as well so yeah really deserved her nomination for sure is there any part of you that looks at it and thinks

22:58Alfie: it's a bit of a shame that England aren't playing the Black Ferns. And don't get me wrong here, Canada absolutely deserve to be in that final. My word, they were good at Ashton Gate last Friday to beat New Zealand. But just in terms of kind of tying a ribbon on that narrative, closing that off with the New Zealand often being the team that England struggled to get past in World Cups. Yeah, I know. I've lost them three times. It's so annoying. So yeah, that would have been lovely that they played them in the final. But, you know, we want the best two teams there. and Canada by far were brilliant and they deserve their spot.

23:31But yeah, it would just make it a little bit sweeter. There's a fantastic long rivalry with England and New Zealand. And again, it would have been a cracking game. But yeah, England will face whoever and throw everything at it.

23:44Alfie: And how do you see it going, Rocky, to finish off? I think it's going to be really dramatic. I think it's going to be really tight. I think England will win it as long as they stick to process and as long as Canada don't come out firing like they did against the Black Ferns, they're going to be motivated. They're on a high. They're flying. I think England. But Canada's offloading game and their defence, can they keep England out? It's so exciting. I'm like, hot, cold, hot, cold. But yeah, I'm a red rose, so I'm going to back my sisters. They're going. England's going to win it. Great stuff. And the moment that women's rugby breaks through into the mainstream more as well?

24:22Hugely. You know, it had a toe through the door. Now it's got a foot through it. And yes, so many people are going to be watching it. I'll be interested to see the viewing figures and the snowball effect from this. We're going to see loads of girls and women take up rugby as well. And absolutely brilliant for the sport and brilliant for English rugby.

24:42Alfie: Well, Rocky, look, thank you once again so much for joining me. Good luck on the last leg of the cycle as well. Everyone remember to go and donate and check it out. What an unbelievable effort from Rocky and the girls there. And enjoy the final because I know it'll be a pretty special moment for you as it will be for every other former Red Rose out there. Absolutely. Come on, England.

25:09Alfie: Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast, which is currently sponsored by IBM. IBM has worked with Wimbledon for more than 30 years, helping the championships use data and AI to create more engaging digital experiences for fans. That includes tools like Match Chat, which can answer questions during play, and Likelihood to Win, which uses live match data to offer near real-time predictions. It's a practical example of AI in action, helping fans follow the tournament more closely while showing how organizations can turn data into useful insight. To learn more about how IBM helps create smarter business, visit ibm.com.

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27:29Alfie: Pleasure as always to chat to Rocky Clark there. Of course, he's backing a Red Roses victory against Canada. Something we spoke about there though, Elgin, how seminal a moment is Saturday in the women's game?

27:41Elgan: Just in terms of the occasion is, as we mentioned, that first 82 ,000 sellout at Twickenham. We've been thinking about it since before the tournament started because World Rugby did trail that announcement before we'd even got to the 43 ,000 at the Stadium of Light in Sunderland. So just in terms of that occasion, it will be the biggest occasion in women's international rugby history, regardless of the result. although because it's in England because the focus has been on the Red Roses and them seeking a 33rd successive win and it will be a 63rd win in their last 64 matches to possibly get over the line for that first World Cup since 2014 they'll be looking at this not only as this seminal moment for women's rugby in total but for them to finally make that history to join 1994 and 2014 in the women's game 2003 in the men's game to have that poster on the wall at Pennyhill Park or Lensbury where you are a World Cup champion which you know that you are a World Cup champion forever you can measure that in a much more quantifiable way than you know the interest that it has in people's hearts and minds that comes after which will also of course be looking for growth after this tournament it'll be interesting to see what Sunday morning is like at rugby clubs around the country are there more girls maybe more boys too that have been swept away by this world cup we'll see what happens

29:02Alfie: on that point then i think it's a really interesting one we talk about is it a seminal moment something that i've been thinking about over the last few days and last few weeks really is how much is this world cup breaking through to people and my experience and i think this is probably unique to kind of my circle and my working circle and things like that is i think it's been a massive thing within rugby and within rugby fans but i haven't seen it break through to other sports or other sports fans in the way that maybe it's being built and I could be totally wrong there that's just kind of my impression but what do you reckon from having covered it of is this a world cup that is really breaking through and really smashing down barriers in the way that

29:41Elgan: we all hope it will if we look at the traditional metric of tv figures that people love to to cite as an example of how much interest it's had we've seen that semi-final bbc reporting more than three million people watching that game on bbc one which was uh you know a record for the women's game we've seen the last two france games have peaks of 4.6 million it does tend to be a bit higher in france and it stayed at that level for their quarterfinal and their semi-final so that shows that you know obviously people are tuning in more than than they perhaps used to you know we'll never get the england football figures or royal wedding figures or the old morcom and wise christmas special figures of yesteryear that that just doesn't happen anymore but those figures are on the rise what i wonder is if perhaps it has cut through for rugby fans more so than the previous women's world cups have and by that i mean you know traditional fans of men's rugby it maybe hasn't cut through to your your 72 000 people who go and watch manchester united play at old trafford but there are so many people out there that maybe aren't usually sports fans or certainly rugby fans that have taken an interest in it because of what it means for the societal growth of the sport.

30:52Elgan: This is a very small personal example, but I was at a wedding on Saturday where I did hear a group of women and a woman who's a very good friend of my wife ask what the score was, and those were the two people that did ask what the score was at the World Cup. Now, it wasn't quite like I've been at a wedding when England men's football team have been playing and everyone there has had BBC on their phone or whatever. But nothing's like that, is it? But things like that are obviously in a different magnitude. But I think the person that was asking me what the score was was someone that I wouldn't normally quantify as a sports fan.

31:25Elgan: So you wonder if it's broken through for that societal reason amongst people that probably perhaps aren't rugby fans in the first place. And again, as I've alluded to, the Sunday morning at a local rugby club, we don't yet know how many nine-year-old girls and boys are included in those TV figures. We'll see what happens over this next season, whatever status the Red Roses take into it.

31:44Alfie: Yeah, I think you might be right. I think it might be one of those that a lot of the people that I may be speaking to are asking about it or perhaps saying they don't really follow it and haven't been watching and that sort of thing are almost your more traditional sports fans. And actually, weirdly, maybe that's not the people it's breaking through to. And it seems like it is breaking through. You say the numbers, the TV numbers, the in-stadium ticket sales, the ticket sales. I was reading something this morning about, you know, being about 94 percent, I think, is going to be the capacity across the whole World Cup, which is unbelievable.

32:09Alfie: So there's so many good metrics. I've just found it really intriguing because personally, a lot of people I've spoken to haven't, it hasn't broken through to them. But I think it clearly is somewhere, but maybe it is just those different markets almost. I think I'm really intrigued, as you say, to see what the knock-on effect is at the end of this World Cup. Back to the game itself, we've got to speak about this. Our friend and colleague Owen Slott, I saw writing about it off the back of the semifinals, which is the psychological baggage for England. How big a factor is what happened against New Zealand three years ago and what has happened for multiple Red Roses team over many, many years that they have struggled to get over the line?

32:44Alfie: This is a team that, let's be frank, people like me and you have asked them about it ad nauseum for years and years and years. They know it's there. We know it's there. How big a factor is any sort of psychological hurdle they have to get over?

32:55Elgan: It is the thing they have to do. They came into the last World Cup essentially saying that that is the sole purpose of what we're doing. Yes, they won 30 games in a row, but they lost the final. And because they lost the final, it has been the millstone around the neck of the Red Roses ever since. John Mitchell, they hired a super coach of the men's game for the past 30 years. That is a statement appointment to have brought him in in 2023. and really they brought him in to win a World Cup final. They've won every game since that 2022 final at Eden Park. Currently 32 wins on the bounce. I'm not saying none of them count if they lose the final but certainly the 33rd is comfortably the most important of those matches they want to win because then they can go on forever and say we did the lot.

33:43Elgan: We won the World Cup at Twickenham in front of 82 ,000 people. We did what so many England teams beforehand have been unable to do. And, you know, it changes careers. Like I say, it doesn't take away anything that the Red Roses have achieved in terms of becoming the best women's rugby team in the world. But what happens afterwards will be of such a greater magnitude if you can have World Cup winner 2025 after your name. when it comes to things like and these things might not seem overly important but whether you go on strictly come dancing or the one show or or chat shows or or or you know get honors and mbes after your name like winning these matches is what makes a huge difference to the rest of someone's life as a result of it the thing for me as well with this final is let's be honest i

34:32Alfie: remember i think it was when i was watching the final in new zealand the full-time whistle goes in one of the great games one of the heartbreaking defeats from an england point of view and immediately I was thinking World Cup three years time at home they have to win it like from that moment from the moment that whistle blew from the moment they didn't win that line out and they messed it up at the end this has been the point that they've been working towards and they will be so aware of that and I just wonder how much of a challenge that is for the players and if we did see some nerves for the first time against France and then I suppose one of the points that I know Slotty made in that piece that I referenced is how many tight games have this team had and if they do find themselves in a really tight game at Twickenham sellout crowd how are they going to deal with it because we haven't necessarily seen them have to deal with that sort of pressure

35:14Elgan: John Mitchell has talked like you say ad nauseum for months about dealing with injustice unfair things that are beyond your control on a rugby field at the last World Cup final that was a red card and it's in the opening quarter when England had dominated the opening 20 minutes of that match In previous World Cup finals, it's been injuries to key players, things along those lines. Currently, England have a fairly decent bill of health. Obviously, they won't be intending to have any yellow or red cards. So they're in a good spot in that regard because things beyond their control, you know, this was back when there were four-day turnarounds, some of the previous World Cups, where it was basically, you know, who out of our 26-player squad is left standing.

35:55Elgan: Now it's much more professionalised, bigger squad sizes, bigger turnarounds. They came into the tournament with a few injury worries, but now they are coming into this final at full bore. So they are perfectly set to win the match. Now they just have to go and do it on Saturday.

36:13Alfie: And in terms of their opponents, I think Canada come into it in a really good spot, as you've been speaking about. I think the rugby they've been playing has been incredibly exciting. And I think the pace they play at has the potential to cause the Red Roses problems and ask questions of their defence that maybe haven't been asked, certainly not consistently in this World Cup so far. I know the Canada coach and some of the players were at England's semi-final. Would they have been watching that? And do you think quietly would think, there's a few chinks in this England armour that we can really get at?

36:42Elgan: Very much so. I think they alluded to that underdog status earlier. They'll be going to that game thinking, we've got just as much of a chance of winning this because on any given occasion, even though women's rugby does tend to be quite prescribed just because of the investment that various nations have compared to others. They will be thinking that it just comes down to this 80 minutes. If we play to the peak of our abilities and England have a few struggles, then we can beat them. So, yeah, I mean, I think I'm looking at it.

37:10Alfie: Do you think that's right, Sariel Gunn, as well? We're so used to with the Red Roses speaking about they'll win. We're like Six Nations Grand Slam decider against France. It's the last game. The Red Roses are going to win. With this game, do you think if they don't turn up, if they're not absolutely on it, that actually England could lose this game?

37:27Elgan: I very much think so because they don't play Canada a huge amount, or certainly haven't in recent years. Like we say, we had that WXV game where it ended 21-12. We're used to seeing them beat France by 1.5 points or as many as 34 points, etc. Whereas we don't perhaps have the same recent body of work against this Canada team playing like this. even that team at the end of last year didn't have the star player so for the goody a team that has some amateur and some semi-professional and professional players will surely benefit from having this run into the world cup so that they're as primed for this as they as they've ever been really so yeah i mean i i don't think i'd quite put it at 50 50 but i don't think it's you know much different from 50 50 in terms of who is who i'm looking most likely towards as the winner on

38:17Alfie: saturday it's so intriguing it's so intriguing i'm really yeah i'm fascinated by this weekend uh round us off then team news from england point of view you said they've got a pretty clean bill of health so do you think we're looking at a pretty similar 23 to what took on france

38:31Elgan: in the semi-final yeah they'll be naming their team on thursday morning two days out from the match and i think really the first choice team has been somewhat set in stone ever since the start of the tournament that team that beat france in mont de marsin in august has really entrenched itself as the first choice selection really so i don't think there'll be too many surprises from what we've seen before for for the big games we've talked about it before about the makeup of that bench and having you know holly herson and helena roland as the sort of utility backs at 22 and 23 zoe harrison getting the nod at 10 there have been some question marks around scrum half recently and whether or not lucy packer might force her way in ahead of natasha hunt but it would be a surprise if England deviated from what they've done thus far just because John Mitchell has been at pains to say every week that he wouldn't tailor to the whims of recent form because he's had two three years of seeing what all these players can do of trusting in them and saying I'd be foolish really if I deviated from that at this short stage how do you see it going Elgin did England get the job done I I mentioned not quite 50 50 but I'm putting it sort of 60-40, 65-35 in England's favour.

39:41Elgan: So I do think they should win, but I think Canada really could give them a good go.

39:47Alfie: I don't know why. I just have this feeling about Canada. I really have this feeling about Canada and their route to this final. And I know they would dismiss it and maybe even be slightly insulted at the suggestion that this is a free hit for them. But I think there's an element of that here. Like Canada are going to be given plaudits and credited no matter what happens on Saturday for getting to that final. The Red Roses have to win it. And I think the whole psychological balance of this game for England, I think they're totally capable of dealing with that. I think England are capable of playing their absolute best game of rugby and winning comes to me.

40:16Alfie: I don't necessarily think that will happen, but they're good enough to do that. But I just think, yeah, for Canada's point of view, I think they could go out and be free and embrace that opportunity to think, imagine being the team that beats this Red Roses team in front of a sellout at their home stadium in a World Cup final.

40:31Elgan: What would be great if Canada did win is that Canada, despite being a minnow of the men's game, failing to qualify for the 2023 World Cup, not having won the Women's World Cup, but being one of the big four teams, it would just be a great moment for that nation to have had. They reached a men's World Cup quarterfinal in 1991 in those last few years of the amateur era. But then professionalism, the men's team has really struggled with that just because of lack of finances, lack of a professional league. A huge country that is not easy to travel around for a domestic league. But what a moment it would be for Canadian women's sport, Canadian rugby if they were to do it.

41:10Elgan: And conversely, it'll be a very similar four years to the last three years if the Red Roses don't quite win it again. so very well poised for a great clash of two teams different styles different amounts of funding different pedigree it's yeah it should be a great occasion yeah I'll be I hope the Red Roses do it

41:28Alfie: I do hope they do from what they've been through since the defeat in the last World Cup final the fact that they are the best funded team I think it is a better thing for the women's game that you want to see the best funded team win it because you don't want any unions to look at it and be like well hang on a minute it doesn't necessarily mean you win a World Cup if you don't fully fund them so let's see I agree with you Elgin I think we have the potential to have a really exciting game it will be a great occasion and it will be a historic occasion let's hope for the right reasons for women's rugby in England Elgin the rest of your week a lot of time at this place I'd imagine England media duties and then the final on Saturday got a pretty strong contingent

42:02Elgan: from the uh from the times at Twickenham yes uh full day at the Lensbury here on Tuesday then Thursday back here for team announcements captain's run on Friday and then yes a long day at Twickenham we'll have the bronze final beforehand at one o 'clock the final at four it'll be a full day of it and then depending on the results possibly a very busy Sunday Monday and Tuesday as well so we'll see how it goes and we will be

42:24Alfie: bringing you a podcast on Saturday we were hoping to do it from the stands in Twickenham but as a non-rights holder I've not been allowed to broadcast the game so I will be having to do updates on the game from the office and then I'll come and meet you outside Twickenham where we're going to be doing a podcast we will bring you a podcast following the full-time whistle but yeah the logistically as i've been working things out this week let's just say it's been unnecessarily stressful but that's where we find ourselves elgin back with you on saturday yeah i'll see you then looking forward to it and also in case you've missed it in your feed yesterday on monday we uploaded our preview for the new prem season that gets underway on thursday night sale against gloucester so chats there with steve diamond newcastle taken over from red bull this summer big story, Alex Sanderson from Sale and Will and Alex had a chat with the Prem CEO, Simon Massey-Taylor as well.

43:11Alfie: So loads for you to get into. That's also in your Ruck feed. We'll be back with you on Saturday following the Women's Rugby World Cup final. See you then.

43:25Alfie: Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast, which is currently sponsored by IBM. IBM has worked with Wimbledon for more than 30 years, helping the championships use data and AI to create more engaging digital experiences for fans. That includes tools like Match Chat, which can answer questions during play, and Likelihood to Win, which uses live match data to offer near real-time predictions. It's a practical example of AI in action, helping fans follow the tournament more closely while showing how organizations can turn data into useful insight. To learn more about how IBM helps create smarter business, visit ibm.com.

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