The MONEY Expert: The Simple Plan That Made Me A MILLIONAIRE (ANYONE Can Do THIS!) | George Kamel

24:04This is amazing. And so I think that stress comes from the fear of the unknown and what could happen. And what if the stock market tanks but when you have no debt no lenders to pay you have a fully funded emergency fund and you've got wealth being built for the future and you're thinking long term you're not worried about what happens right because you've got your plan and you're sticking to it exactly i'm so confident in my plan and it's not because i'm some like multi-millionaire it's it's because i'm content with where i'm at right i don't need a next another million dollars tomorrow yeah you don't need a new watch you don't need a new car you don't need to go on five extra trips that you see other people doing.

24:40Exactly. You don't need to overspend because you have financial peace. And the simpler you can create, the simpler life you can create, the better off you're going to be. Because the more stuff you own, the more it kind of owns you. The more complicated life gets. And so I was just hanging out with the minimalists and we were talking about all of this stuff because we're seeing anxiety stems from the stuff around us. And the less clutter in our life, emotionally, physically, financially, the better off we are. And I've never seen someone debt-free who's like my life is worse now that i have no debt not once they always are levitating because they just have a peace about them because they're not keeping their bodies not keeping the score anymore of the debt that they owe do you think people have more shame around being in debt or more shame today about having an abundance of money oh like is there is there a shame and like i don't want to because other people are hurting yeah yeah i've got i have well i figured out how to like take responsibility for my life and you know pay off the debts and then start building wealth and i've actually done it now i spent 10 20 30 years of actually creating something of value and i've been smart with my money now i have it which used to be like celebrated like yeah you know it's like but now it's kind of like wealth yeah so do you feel like people have more shame around being in debt and broke and a victim that they don't have control of their life financially or more shame about being rich?

26:06Well, in a culture where debt has become celebrated, I think we've lost a level of shame that we ought to have. Like back in our grandparents' days, it was not okay to owe people money. It was a goal to not owe people money. Now there's TikToks about people going, I'm$15 million in debt and I'm proud of it and you should be$15 million in debt too. And the people who have wealth and have earned it with integrity are going like, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. because everyone's upset. And at the heart of it is, I don't think it's fair that Lewis has more than me. And it's this comparison culture and mentality of, if he has something I don't, that's not fair.

26:44And it goes into basically socialist anarchy at that point. And so the best thing we can do, whether you, we have people who follow the baby steps and they're whispering to us like, hey, we're millionaires. Right, right. They're not like owning it. They're not like shouting from the rooftops, but we live in such a weird world at Ramsey where we're celebrating people paying off debt. We're asking about income all day long. And so there's less shame in our Ramsey bubble, but it's weird that we whisper that. Why do you think there's so much shame for people that have, you know, a hundred grand or a million dollars of net worth where they can't speak about it to their friends and family openly without feeling judged, attacked, having handouts everywhere where people now, now you got to pay off my debts.

27:27Is that what it is? That people are just shaming people that have taken responsibility for their money? The heart behind it is there's wisdom to it. You know, me telling a random person or my friend, like, hey, bro, I got a million bucks. Like, it's out of context, and it's going to make them feel small and less than. And so I think the heart of it is good. It's good intentions. And there's a time and a place to talk about it. The Ramsey Show is one of them. We love celebrating people. But going down the street being like, I'm a millionaire. What are you guys doing? It's hard. And so even with this book, I don't brag that I'm a millionaire.

28:01I tell people, I'm the average George. If I can go from broke to millionaire, you can too. So it's never a flex on my part. All it is, is I want to empower other people that I didn't come from money. I am a W-2 employee. I didn't start my own business. I'm not a self-made entrepreneur. I'm a guy who just followed a simple plan and believes that anyone can become a millionaire in America today. And so I talk about money so that we don't have to talk about money. It's like, let's take the shame out of it and let's just make it fun and conversational. And it's not about a flex. It's about encouraging and empowering each other.

28:33Wow. So you're telling me you can work somewhere for a decade, not start your own business, not be hustling on the side constantly and spending all your time trying to earn more constantly and you could get to millionaire status. Is that what you're telling me? It's possible? It's possible. I think it looks different for a lot of people. A part of my wealth building was my spouse, Whitney. I met her at Ramsey and we are net worth millionaires together as a household. And people are always like, well, that doesn't count because really you have to take half of that because what if you divorce? I'm like, that's such a weird, that's like saying like, well, what if the stock market goes to zero?

29:10You're not a millionaire anymore. I'm like, you're right. I wouldn't be. But I think a spouse is one of the most powerful wealth building tools. Really? It's underrated. Tell me why. Because when my wife and I met, we were so aligned, obviously. We both worked at Ramsey. We drank the Kool-Aid and it was good. And we were like, we started off our marriage debt free. I had paid off my consumer debt at that point. She was much smarter than me, much better looking, much better at money management. And so like, it's a life hack to start your marriage off debt free, already investing for the future, having an emergency fund, getting into a home.

29:42And we ended up paying off that home in 26 months because we were on the same page, got a modest home that was within our means. And we both had the goal of like, what would it be like to not have a mortgage payment in our early 30s. What can we do? How could we give? What options would we have? And that led us down the path of paying off the house. That house appreciates in value over time. We've been investing 15 % that whole time into our Roth 401ks at Ramsey, boring investing stuff. And all of a sudden you look up at your net worth calculation and like the equity in our home and in retirement accounts, we're millionaires.

30:16And so I don't say that to minimize how the sacrifice that we made and the side hustles that I did and us getting promoted over the years, over a decade. It may take people 15 years or 20 years. It may take dual income. You know, we had dual income, no kids at the time. We got two French bulldogs, which was a real net worth suck. Oh, that's a couple hundred of months. That would train the bank account. We just had a little girl four months ago, and I promise you the dogs are still more expensive than a baby. Congrats, man. Thank you. So all of that together, I say that to go, it may not look the same for everyone.

30:50So this is not a, hey, if I can't do it in 10 years, I'm a failure. But I think people imagine, well, it's going to take me 35 years to build wealth. It really doesn't take that long when you get intentional and focused and follow the Ramsey baby steps. Average person following the baby steps pays off their home in seven years. Wow. That's not a long time. If you're 22, it feels like an eternity. Yes. But you're going to be seven years older. So where do you want to be? Time is going to pass. You want to be debt free or not? Right. Right. What do you think is the three biggest questions everyone should ask before they get married?

31:25Oh, this is a good one. I was just on Chris Harrison from The Bachelor. So I was talking to him and his wife about this and like what questions to ask when you're dating someone, when to bring all this up. But I think one of the best questions to ask is not about, you know, you don't want to ask about, hey, how much debt do you have on the first date? What's your income? What's your life plan? what you want to ask is what are your views around debt just what are your values when it comes to building wealth that to me says a whole lot more about a person than their current status and so i'm never going to be like you better find someone who's debt free who's a million you know it's not about that it's about where are they trying to go because if they're trying to hang on to debt and they're going to continue to spend more than they make probably not someone i want to be with long term yeah if they've got seven credit cards and you know they're in a ton of debt that may not be the, and they think that's good, that may not be a sign of alignment, of financial freedom in the future.

32:21Exactly. And that's going to hurt. That's only going to cause resentment. We see that one of the number one causes of divorce in America today is money fights and money problems. And so if you can avoid that on the front end, which I think you can by asking some good questions, like what are your values around money? What was it like growing up in your house? Was money talked about? I think that's a really interesting question because it says a lot about how you think about money and your paradigm around money. Is money something that you see as an obstacle versus a tool? Are you wanting to be generous?

32:51Are you a saver or a spender? These are fun, lighthearted questions that aren't digging and like prodding on the first date. Now, as you get into the relationship, you can start to ask about, you know, debt levels and like, do you have a plan to pay this off? And, but doing it in an encouraging way is very, is the key. You don't want to come at them attacking. Here's another question. Let's say that you've been, you're in your late twenties, early thirties, and you've been dating for a couple of years and you've, you've really built this incredible connection and you've learned to like each other and love each other.

33:23And you're excited to get married, but then you start to have these challenging conversations. You start to ask some of these things. Maybe you were too timid. You didn't want to ask about it because life was just good. And now it's into asking about debt, money values, vision around money, all these different things, and you realize you're completely opposite spectrums around values and money. Do you think love is enough to keep a marriage going without a lot of conflict? Or if you're complete opposites around views on money, do you think that is going to cause more pain and friction than the love will keep you together?

34:00That's a great question. Based on all the case studies you've seen come through in the Ramsey show and your experience and people you know, what do you think? I think there's a good distinction to make between you don't need to have two savers in a relationship to make it work. You can have the free spirit spender and you can have the nerd saver who loves to do the budget. You can have a long, healthy marriage that way. But if you have someone who's saying, I want to hang on to debt, I want to continue to spend more than we make, I don't care, YOLO, forget about the future. And this other person who has a real fear about like, we're going to be screwed.

34:34We're never going to be able to retire. Eventually that's going to cause enough strife in the relationship that either you shut down and brush it all under the rug and there's a lot of resentment or it ends up in divorce. Wow. And that's what we've seen is there's financial infidelity. And one of the... What is financial infidelity? Well, it's not cheating on your spouse, but it's not communicating honestly about finances. This is when you have that other account over here, and we bought this thing, and I didn't tell you about it because of fear or because I knew what they would say if I bought this thing.

35:07And what that does is you lose trust, and relationships are entirely built on trust. And money is a really emotional piece of that trust puzzle, and it's hard to rebuild trust. Really easy to break. All it takes is one purchase without the a spouse knowing. And we've seen this time and time again on the Ramsey show where one spouse spends over here, the other spouse didn't know about it, and they're calling in going, what do I do? How do I repair this relationship? And it's less of a financial question at that point. We know what to do financially, but it's how do we move forward in the relationship that's really tough.

35:38How do you repair a relationship if there's been financial infidelity? Well, counseling is always a start and more open, honest communication together over a long period of time. A trust is one of those things where I have to see a pattern of trustworthiness. And that takes a long time. Sometimes it can take years to fully repair that. Because it's always in the back of that person's mind. It could happen anytime now. Just like with a cheater, you're like, they could cheat again. We don't truly know. And so what that looks like is making that monthly budget together, combining bank accounts for transparency.

36:12That's one of the biggest things I've seen today is people are so against combining bank accounts. I'm like, you share a bed, you share DNA, you have a baby together, but you can't share a bank account? This is crazy. So they live like roommates, Venmoing each other back and forth, splitting expenses and hairs, and then wondering why they don't have a great marriage. Interesting. So the best couples I know have full transparency and communication around money. They have combined bank accounts and they still have their independence. Lewis has his line item in the budget for fun money. It's not about control on one person's part of going, you can't spend that way.

36:46It's, we agreed, Lewis has$500 to spend on shoes this month. And she has$600 because that's how it should be. To add some self-care in there. Right. Well, maybe they have a separate bank account for personal and then a shared combined account or something like that. Are you saying all accounts should be shared? My wife and I have one shared checking account and it works the same. Because when you think about a line item in the budget, that's really telling the money where it's going to go. Right, right. And so sending it to the personal accounts, that's fine. I think it can create a layer of financial infidelity because we don't know, wait, Lewis had all this money.

37:19I've seen this happen where they go, I didn't know you had all that money saved up in there. And here's what we've seen. They go, well, that's her debt to pay off. She's going to do that out of her own money in her own account. And so what happens is you lose the we when it comes to relationships and money and it becomes, yeah, but that's her mistake. She's going to pay that off. And nothing builds a marriage like going, that's her thing to deal with. but you got to be in this together. Wow. And so that's a hard thing too. One person brings in a whole bunch of debt to the relationship and you get married.

37:46Well, Lewis has been saving$100 ,000 in a savings account. She comes in with 100 ,000 and we go, that savings account for that house just turned into the pay off her debt fund. Oh man. And that hurts. That's got to create some resentment for people, right? 100%. So how do you, I mean, that's why you got to choose wisely, I guess. That's part of it. Or know like, okay, I'm choosing this knowing my money is going to support this debt or this person's past decision-making, right? That got her in this position. You're taking that whole person on in marriage. Not just the good parts you like. You got to accept them.

38:18That's one of the reasons, you know, you got to... Most people hope for like potential for that they're going to change, but you got to accept who they are when you're getting into a relationship. That's a whole nother conversation around this. Oh, yeah. But that's a hard part that I totally understand. Because one person worked really hard to save up this money and they were diligent and disciplined. And one person made this financial mistake probably before marriage happened and they're still grappling with the reality of student loans and the car loan and it hurts but is there an amount of debt one pile is there an amount of debt where love is not enough that one person has a million dollars in debt yeah someone's got so much school debt yeah they're 400 grand from their doctor school or whatever it is then they made a you know poor purchase or try to invest in something and went bankrupt or whatever it is but man you've got a connection you've got an intimacy you've got a yeah a shared two years of experiences and a love that feels really strong and then you learn about four or five hundred grand in debt is love strong enough to make a relationship last long term with that much debt from one person i i do think love can overcome but i don't think it's like a squishy hallmark feeling i think it's a there is such a strong partnership of like we're gonna get through this together and my friend jade warshaw ramsay personality she's living proof of that her husband and her they had almost half a million dollars in consumer debt really and they paid it all off over seven years oh what that was this before they got married or together so once they got married they looked at all their debts and combined they were both messy they were both a mess wow but to me it wasn't just this like love will overcome it was an alignment in our goals and where we're headed and our new values and our new identities of who we wanted to become see they both were at fault of their debts it wasn't like one person was one person comes in half a million the other person is like i'm doing great yeah that's a much harder thing i you have you have to overcome it but you also have to realize marriage is long term so you got to think about 30 years from now are we really going to look back and go well at 500 000 really set us back maybe maybe that's seven years of your life that you've got to make different decisions that you can't go take a trip you can't live a life that you dreamed of that dream has to shift Oh, yeah.

40:28So there's a lot of like... There's a lot to overcome. Your life looks different. Yeah, but you make a decision for one person that hopefully they'll get out of this with you, right? It's like, hopefully they'll make better decisions, but what if they don't? What if they haven't broken the habit? What if they haven't healed their pain that's gotten them into this place? All these different things. That's true. I mean, debt, it can hurt a relationship for sure. I've also seen it where it strengthens it because it causes them to communicate on a different level. It's come together. We've seen the debt-free journey actually heal marriages.

40:58It's inspiring. Really? Where they were on the brink of divorce. They go through Financial Peace University. They finally get aligned. They're running the same direction, maybe for the first time. And all of a sudden at the end, they're like, well, what did all that debt-free stuff do? It helped us communicate better, get aligned, have the same vision. And what that does is create a better marriage. Right. And so I think there's a beautiful part that is underpinning all this financial stuff we do that creates transformation in other areas of life. We've seen people lose 100 pounds while on the debt-free journey because transformation begets transformation.

41:30Right. It's not just one area. It's like you have to take inventory and stock of every area of life and start being disciplined and have better habits and all these different things. It goes back to 97 % believe they control their financial destiny. Once you realize you have a sense of agency and autonomy over your life, you're like, what else can't I do? Tell me I can't go run that marathon or lose 100 pounds or switch career paths. It's like an invincible feeling that is, that's really the empowerment and inspiration behind the Ramsey show. You build that momentum. What do you think is the thing that keeps people in a victim mentality the most around money?

42:05So one of my core beliefs, and I talk about it in the book, is that it's not all your fault, but it's your responsibility. And one of the biggest keys to staying in this victim mentality, and I understand people had some real things happen to them. And so I don't want to minimize the fact that there's people who have been hurt and there's been trauma and life has really happened to them. But the key is they realize it's my responsibility to move forward. I can't wait for someone else to come fix all of this. That's what I think keeps people in the victim mentality, whether it's student loan forgiveness.

42:39That's just one area that's easy to point at and go like, are you going to wait and hope that the next person running for office actually comes through with the promise to get your vote? Or you can do the hard work and work that side job and not eat out in order to create margin to pay off the debt yourself. And that to me is the single variant of a victor or a victim is am I in control? Yes, it's not all my fault, but it's my responsibility. Not by my hand, but it's in my lap. What am I going to do? And those are the heroes we celebrate, the ones that, in spite of all that, go, I'm going to freaking take down Goliath.

43:16I don't care. Nothing's going to stop me. Those are the ones we want to root for. Yeah. If someone's making around$70 ,000 to$120 ,000 a year in that range, and they feel overwhelmed with money, what is the root of that overwhelm if they're in that$70 ,000 to$120 ,000 range? Is it they're overspending? Is it they're don't feel like they're keeping up with their friends? What do you think is that cause of stress and anxiety around money in that range? Well, the average household income in America is about 71 grand. And so if you're making 71 grand, you're doing pretty well. And if you're making 70 to 120 in most areas, right?

43:55Like LA 120 is very different from an Idaho 120. And so a lot of it is cost of living. But a lot of it stems from lifestyle creep. You know, very rarely do we start making$120 ,000. We get there over time and you would think, well, if I just made more money, I could solve all this. I'd get rid of the debt. I'd be doing so well. But what happens is you just go, I can afford a little more payment and I could afford a little nicer car. We can get in that house. We can afford the mortgage. We can stomach it. So over time, you just start collecting payments like it's a game and you realize we got no margin at the end of the month to save for retirement and go on that vacation.

44:33And so I think that's the biggest key. It goes back to not living on less than you make. Right. And so it's rarely an income problem because we know a third of people making six figures are living paycheck to paycheck. And that makes people irate. A third of people making six figures a year are living paycheck to paycheck. One paycheck. Month to month. They're screwed. Really? That was a shocking stat. That wasn't even Ramsey research. That was outside research. We were like, that makes sense because people calling the Ramsey show just this last week, We're taking calls from people making$190 ,000,$250 ,000, and they can't breathe.

45:05Why? Well, you start adding up all the toys they have and the luxury cars. They got$60 ,000 car loan here. They're underwater on it. It's only worth$40 ,000 now. And they bought a house that was a little too much house. They bid off more than they can chew. And the mortgage payment is 60 % of their take-home pay. And so you add up all that, and they got a credit card balance now. And they got the personal loan. and they still have the student loan and all of this just compounds. And they got to fix stuff. They got to, you know. They have no emergency fund. Four in 10 people have$0 in savings. And so you add up all these stats and you're going like, America has become land of the free and home of the broke.

45:43Like, how did we get here? This is an amazing country with so much opportunity. We have more time. We have the most advanced society in the world and we have less time and money than ever before. Like, when are we going to wake up and just break free from all this and go like, this ain't working. Let's try a different way. Wow. And that's why I'm out here from the rooftops going like, here's how to do it. Break free from the system. You don't need a credit. Ditch the credit cards. Screw the student loans. And it's a hard road to travel. It's swimming upstream because we are so desensitized to debt in today's world.

46:15Here's a stat that I saw that you mentioned in the book. 43 million Americans carry a total of$1.6 trillion in student loans. and also the average student loan debt per borrower is almost$40 ,000, an average interest rate of 5.5%. So this amounts to a payment of about$393 a month. Based on those numbers, let's do some math that will move you from sad to angry. If you pay$393 per month for 20 years, you will have paid more than$94 ,000 in total payments on a loan that was$40 ,000 at graduation. and then you say, are you punching a hole in the wall yet? You know, what is your thoughts on getting into a good school, taking on$20 ,000,$40 ,000 a year in student loans and graduating with$200 ,000 to$400 ,000 in student loans?

47:11What's your thoughts on that dream that universities and colleges are selling teenage students today? Well, I think student loans and higher education has become a normalized scam in America today. And I'm very pro-education. Hear me say that. I think education is great. But I don't think going to the dream school and taking on student loans to do it has the ROI that it used to. Really? You think it's a scam? Yeah. I mean, look at college tuition. It's risen 400%. And you're like, is this still worth it? Because it's not like - Am I getting better education? Salaries haven't increased by 400%.

47:49Right. Degrees are not all rated equally. And so we tell people, only go to school if it's the only way and it's the best way. And even then, choose the most affordable school. And that might not be the dream school. Yeah, my nephew, I think he's a genius. He's smarter than me today at 19, right? Wow. He's read, I don't know, hundreds of books. He's like prodigy level then. Prodigy level, just so intelligent, emotionally intelligent, IQ, EQ, all of it. but he went to a community college for the first two years because it was 500 bucks a quarter or something whatever it is exactly and i was like good for you you could have like went to and now he's going to ohio state for his final two years transfer to the four year exactly and it's a state school it's a lot cheaper like he can pay it off while he's working while he's in school to pay it off by the time he's done and i'm like that is a smart way to do it unless you're going for some specialty skill.

48:45Like I was an athlete, so I wanted to play at a university where I could play sports. That was different to help me get into being a professional athlete. I took on debt, but I was able to pay it off within like seven years. And, or some other like specialty skill, but usually you can find an internship, a mentorship. You can learn stuff online now that's affordable or free and learn these things and try to work somewhere during there as well. Is there ever a time, you know, Winston Churchill, you said in the book, a quote from Winston Churchill, I began my education at a very early age. In fact, right after I left college.

49:20I think it was someone else. Maybe it was Einstein, someone that said, don't let schooling get in the way of your education. Maybe in a Twain quote or something. Mark Twain, yeah. Don't let schooling get in the way of your education. Yeah. Well, it's become about the experience. Yeah. I think we can admit that now. Look at colleges. is they got whirlpools that they're selling in the college brochures. And look at the world-class cafeteria and the chefs. It's not about the education anymore. It's now become about mom and dad's reputation. Right. And the parents can't brag to their friends about the kid going to community college down road.

49:53And so what parents are doing is saying, hey, go to that school. We'll figure it out. What that turns into is we'll take out student loans in their name. We've seen that on the Ramsey Show. will co-sign parent plus loans, which just means the parent just took out debt. And here's what we've seen. The kids can't always pay, and it falls back on the parent, and it makes Thanksgiving dinner real awkward. And so all of that, it turns into people paying for student loans for 20 years is the average. And the balance grows over time. They're paying this down with the minimum payment, so they think, or these income-driven repayment plans.

50:27And they started with$40 ,000. Well, now the balance is$60 ,000 because they were in deferment, and they couldn't pay and they're trying to get the job. And there wasn't this magic job at the end of the college rainbow with the salary they thought they were going to get. I interviewed high schoolers and they were just flabbergasted when I was like, you're not going to make$100 ,000 straight out of college with that degree. They thought they would? Yeah. They all think, well, I'll just make six figures. It'll be fine. So I'll take on$200 ,000 in debt. I'll be able to pay it off. Not realizing what your paycheck is going to be after taxes and what that's going to look like when you already have a car payment.

51:02And now everyone's telling you when you graduate, you got to get a house. What are you doing? You're a college graduate. That's the American dream. Travel the world and live your life. And so all of that just turns into this life that, you know, I say in the book that we were sold the American dream, but delivered the American nightmare, especially with the student loan thing. And I love education. I think you can get more education from this show than you can from most college campuses, to be honest. And the people I've seen that are successful are not successful because of a piece of paper. They're the secret sauce.

51:32And they just found the right knowledge base and skill set to learn to do the thing they wanted to do. You know, it's interesting because I felt extremely insecure and stupid almost my entire life because of school, because I did so poorly in school. And I had a tutor every day. I was in special needs classes. When kids were doing lunch and recess, I was with a tutor alone, feeling shameful that I couldn't remember or comprehend the words on a page that I was reading as a middle school and high schooler. It was really, it felt really sad and lonely because everyone else was excelling in school.

52:11And I remember thinking like, gosh, I can't wait till the bell to ring at whatever, 320 or 330 every day so I can get on the sports field or the basketball court or the baseball field. Because that's where I was learning the most about myself, about how to set goals every day, about how to, you know, be disciplined, about how to listen to a coach and actually implement. Okay, he's telling me to do this thing. I'm going to do it. How to get feedback and receive feedback. How to communicate with teammates and work with a team. All those skills, I was like, this is school for me. Like, I'm learning more in this two hours of practice than eight hours of a classroom.

52:48And I remember saying to myself, like, after school was done, because it was just a painful experience emotionally and spiritually in a sense. It was just like, I couldn't wait for things to be done. And I was like, I am an idiot. it. Like after school was over, I was like, I still don't know anything. And the things that I, the degree I got, like I'll never use this and all these different things. And I was like, I need to learn a lot. And there's still so much I need to learn. And I remember thinking to myself before I started the school of greatness 10 years ago, I was like, I want to start something where I can learn from the smartest people in the world and get the best education.

53:24And it's not going to be sitting in a classroom all day. It's going to be learning one-to-one and then figuring out how can I share this with the world. And that's why it's a school of greatness. I was like, this is what I wish I learned growing up, stuff that you talk about in your book. No one talks about this stuff. No one teaches you about the financial strain you might have for your whole life if you do certain things. They don't teach us about how to deal with losing or failure or emotions or all this different stuff that we need as adults, this different type of education. That's why I created the School of Greatness.

53:56Yeah. And that's why I'm glad that you're here talking about financial freedom and breaking free from broke like you have in your book. So the biggest financial scam that you think right now is college. It's the one that our generation was sold. I mean, think about it. From a young age, that's the path you're sold. What school are you to go to? Get good grades to go to this school to get a better job that pays more money so that you can have a better financial life. It doesn't pan out these days. For most people, they, number one, either don't finish school, they don't use their degree, and they're paying it off for so long that there's no ROI there.

54:37And yes, there's trades, of course. that I think are undervalued in today's world. And you can go to trade school and pay for that in cash and be making more than your buddy who has his philosophy degree. Right, right. And so I think there's a lot of value in all kinds of work. And in the world we live in today, I mean, gosh, you can start a YouTube channel and podcast and be just fine. And so there's so many opportunities out there that I think, especially the younger generations, they're starting to sniff this out and go, Mom, Dad, I'm not going to go to your alma mater. No, unless your parents want to pay for it and say, we're going to pay everything and you don't have to worry about any debt.

55:11And they just want to do it out of the kindness of their heart. And it's like, okay, then maybe that's a thing you could do for four years to learn or four and a half, five years or whatever. And you might be better off going to Europe for, you know, send me to Europe for 30 grand. Learn a language. And it's still cheap. In Europe. Yeah, exactly. If you want the experience and the social, you know, growth and all that. But there's nothing wrong with going to these famous schools and expensive schools. But if you're doing it with debt and doing it for the wrong reasons and to put the pressure on a 17 year old to be like, what do you want to do for the next 40 years?

55:42Cause then there's some cost fallacy and there's resentment. Cause you know, I grew up in middle Eastern culture. It was like, well, you're either going to be in medicine or you're going to be an engineer or a failure. You get two options. And so I was the failure. My parents were very supportive. I got a communication degree and went the op, but the rest of my family are, they're engineers and in medical medicine world, which is great for them. But a lot of them are years later, still paying on those student loans. And you're going from a nurse to a nurse practitioner and a doctor and pharmacist and all of these paths, they take a lot of money.

56:14And sometimes you go, I thought I was going to make$300 ,000. I'm in residency and I'm not making squat. And so there's just a lot of misinformation and myths around what the future will look like. And when you do it without debt, you just have less stress. You have more peace about the next step and you have different options. Yes. You don't have to take that first job. You can wait. What would you say are the three biggest killers of wealth in America? Ooh. On my YouTube channel, I did a video and it was America's number one wealth killer and it was about car loans. And that one blew up. Tell me why.

56:49Because I did the math and math sometimes is offensive of what that car payment would be if you had just simply invested it. Wow. And it was millions of dollars. We're talking like$6 million if you invest the average car payment. Give me a breakdown of this. Well, if you take the average car payment, I think, of the book was$600 now,$700 for a new car. Yeah,$700 for a new car. Five grand down probably, 700 a month. Yeah. That's normal now because new cars are now$40,$50 grand. And so$700 a month invested in the S &P 500, which historically, we'll see a 10 % return, 11 % return. Well, over 30 years of your career, 700 bucks a month, it's a freaking lot of money and it turns into millions and millions of dollars.

57:34Now, the opposite side is let's say you're going to be the tortoise. You're going to be me and you're going to go, well, I'm going to buy the$6 ,000 car and I'm going to slowly upgrade over time to the used$12 ,000 car, maybe eventually to the$20 ,000 car, 30 ,000, whatever. You're going to do it with cash over a long period of time. and that payment you would have had, you can put that away, save it, invest it, sinking funds, all of that, and you're not paying any interest. And so I think the choices we make because of loans, we go, well, I can't afford a$50 ,000 car, but I can afford a$500 monthly payment.

58:06It's broken. Wealthy people ask a different question. They don't ask how much down, how much a month. They ask how much. What is the full price? And if I can't afford it, I'm not buying it. I'm going to pay it all in cash right now and not have this payment over time. Absolutely. So I think car loans are number one. What's the benefit of, say someone's like, I want to buy a really fancy car. You know, I want to buy a$50 ,000 to maybe an$80 ,000 car,$100 ,000 car. And they're saying to themselves, why spend$100 ,000 on a car when I can just pay$1 ,300 a month and keep that cash? I can invest that cash in the market and that's going to grow for me and pay down my payments over time.

58:47What do you say to that? Well, I think those people, first of all, they rarely have the margin to be able to do that. And usually if they're spending a hundred grand on a car, they're going to be flexing in other ways and other parts of their life. And so this idea that I could like arbitrage that money, I'm going to deploy my cash in this way. I think it's a losing game. And because it stems from comparison and discontentment. It stems from I want something that I can't afford, but I want it anyways, and debt allows me to have it now. What if someone can't afford it? If they can't afford it, go for it.

59:20If someone can't afford it, should they pay it all in cash and be done with it, one payment? Or should they say, you know, I can afford it, but I'm going to be able to pay these payments down also. But I'd like to have more cash in the bank for whatever reason. Sure, yeah. Now, I think for most people, if you have, let's say,$100 ,000 in cash and you're going to get a$100 ,000 car, but you're like, well, I could just take on the payments. I'll use this elsewhere. I think if you're actually doing the math, it just doesn't make sense. Because number one, you're assuming, well, the market's just going to keep going up and up and up.

59:52I'll always make money. It's a roller coaster. So if you're investing for the short term, that's a dangerous game. But on the other side, when you look at that$100 ,000 car, and the more expensive the car, the more it's going to depreciate most likely. The$100 ,000 car, we've seen, and I talk about this in the book, in five years, it goes down 60 % in value. Wow. Five years. So$100 ,000 down to$40 ,000. You're like, that hurts my brain to think about. It's depreciating asset, yeah. And so you're paying interest on the depreciating asset. And so you're getting hurt on both ends there. Wow. And what we found on the Ramsey show, almost every single caller is saying, help me, I'm underwater in my car.

1:00:33I owe 60, it's only worth 40. What do I do? What do they do? You don't have that problem when you don't have a car payment. Right. When you just paid in cash. What do those people do if they've in that situation though? What do you guys suggest? There's only a few options. Number one is you just hang on to the car and pay it off. Number two, you come up with a difference. So let's say you're 20 grand underwater. order, you come up with 20 grand in cash, saving up over time in order to pay off that loan in full. Wow. Then the other option is you go to your local credit union and get a personal loan for the difference and say, listen, the same place that gave you the loan in the first place, you go, you got a bad loan on your hands.

1:01:09You got bad collateral here because what you gave me, this asset is not worth that anymore. Can I have the difference in order to get rid of this asset, get it out of my life, get out from under this car payment? So none of those options are pretty, by the way. So you don't think you should ever get a car loan? No. I don't think it's wise. There's a lot of financial people out there going like, well, here's the parameters. And if you do this much down, I've seen it all. But what I've also seen is people who build wealth with intentionality and they're not trying to flex, they just buy the cars they can afford.

1:01:40And once you have no payments and that's a value you live by, you just make different decisions. Because once payments are normal on one end, you're just going to go, well, it's fine. I I already got a payment here. I got a payment there. When you decide I'm done with debt, it is so freeing because you just go, I could save up 20 grand. I know how to do that. I did it for the down payment. I did it for college. I can do it for the car. And so cars are utility and it's fun. Dave Ramsey's got some really nice cars. He's paid cash for all of them. He gets to choose what kind of car he drives. So we always say, drive like no one else.

1:02:11So later you can drive like no one else. And that was me. I drove an 09 Civic just a few years ago with the bumper hanging off. Dave Ramsey's making fun of me. he's going come on dude it's time to upgrade the car but i was like i'm paying off the house first and then i'm gonna upgrade and even then i bought a used car still uh and even nice nicer used car though nicer very nice yeah yes and so we just upgraded my wife's car because she deserves way better than i do and so it hurt my soul to write that check but man it felt good to not have a payment next month right and the month after that and the month after that so now we're able to invest in my little girl's 529 plan and save up for that vacation and she can enjoy the car and it can go down in value and it doesn't hurt my soul one bit i'm like it's not we're never going to be underwater on this car yeah it's just a toy it's a toy but she appreciates it it allows her to feel safe or an emotional connection or you know it's okay like people think that we're against having nice stuff and nice cars like they just want you to drive beater cars forever i'm like no drive a beater car while you're broke so you can get break free from broke to get the car you really want but you own it and it doesn't own you yeah and american culture these days is everything owns you because you got payments attached to everything in your life now now what's your thoughts on buying a home being a great decision or a horrible decision because you hear a lot of people saying like never buy a home that you live in like just rent and i know who you're talking about yeah and um and also it's just like homes are getting more and more expensive.

1:03:41I mean, a home in Los Angeles is pretty unaffordable for a lot of people compared to maybe Idaho or something where a home might be a different price. But should we be buying our own home and taking on this massive mortgage and this massive debt and these payments every month and then having to fix things up and, you know, break, you know, fix the roof and the water or the systems, whatever it is, and all the state taxes and all these other fees that come with owning a house. It's no joke. Or just rent a house. Let someone else take care of all that stress and you stay in a space that is more flexible for you.

1:04:16Yeah. Well, I think renting has got a real bad rap in today's world. And I hate that because I think renting is very wise. It's buying patience. And for a lot of people, it does make sense. And if you're living in a high cost of living city, you're not entitled to be a homeowner and you live in New York City or LA. It's going to be harder if you want to buy a home in San Francisco and that's where you choose to live. You better have the income to support living in San Francisco. And so I think home ownership is a great goal that everyone should have to at some point be a homeowner and have that house paid off.

1:04:46And we've seen that as part of the millionaire study. A paid off home was a huge part of their net worth. Really? There's about a third of their net worth of millionaires was in a paid for home. And the average millionaire paid off their home in 10.2 years. And so I think it's a huge part. I think renting forever is also a bad plan of just going, because rent's going to go up over time, because those homeowners' property taxes go up over time and someone owns that house. And so that's also a bad plan. I want you to have a fixed expense of a home and then soon pay that off. And so here's the way to do it to where you know you're not making a poor decision.

1:05:19Only buy a house when you're financially ready. And that has nothing to do with home prices and interest rates. It has everything to do with your own financial home. How do you know when you're financially ready to buy a home? Once you're completely debt-free of consumer debt, you've done the debt snowball, you have a fully funded emergency fund, three to six months of expenses. Then you save up the down payment. And here's the other kicker. Not only do you have the down payment, but you get a 15 year fixed rate mortgage where the payment is no more than a quarter of your after tax income. So that looks a lot like, you know, if you make five grand a month,$1250 should be where that mortgage sits on a 15 year.

1:05:56Now that's hard to do, I'll admit. In today's world with home prices and interest rates, that's going to be hard. So what do you have to do? Make different decisions. Because the math didn't change. So what has to change is your expectations of your first home. That might mean we get the condo instead of the single family. It might mean we're 45 minutes outside of the city because that's the one we can afford. It might mean we got to save up a bigger down payment for the next two years in order to do this wisely. But the other option is, and then we get this on the Ramsey show, people call us and say, hey, my parents pressured us to buy a house and now it's 65 % of our take-home pay and we're broke.

1:06:30We can't afford this and that and we can't put food the table and cover our bills and we got to sell the house now well that turns home ownership from a blessing to a burden and so there's a right way to do it and a right time to do it but unfortunately people in their 20s are just like well it's time for me to buy a home it's the american dream where's my home i got the degree i'm still paying all my student loans oh man gosh i need to get getting a home and so there's a time and a place for it should you buy a home if you have student debt oof well my hot take is no my hot take is pay off all consumer debt before you get a home and your student loans everything student loans credit cards car loans it all needs to go before you become a homeowner because it just has it compounds the stress because you know home ownership is it's real expensive like you think it's apples to apples two thousand dollars in rent is not two thousand dollars in mortgage because the rent is the least you'll pay the mortgage that's just the starting point yeah before you start dealing with maintenance and repairs and the hvac went out and the roof needs to be replaced four years from now.

1:07:31I mean, those are some big ticket items. And your time to fixing stuff or whatever, managing things differently. Yeah. So sometimes I miss the days of renting when I could just call the apartment complex and be like, you got a problem to fix over here. And so it really is a blessing while you're renting. I know it stinks because you're like, I'm not building equity, but building that patience muscle is so important and ignoring everyone else's noise of like, you got to get a house, man. If you don't get in now, you'll never get in. Yeah, I lived in a two-bedroom apartment for, I don't know, 15 years, you know, until I was 40.

1:08:03Wow. I lived in a two-bedroom apartment and I felt completely fine with that. Yeah. You know, it was a nice apartment. I had like what I needed and I upgraded, you know, over time into a nicer apartments, but I did not feel like I'm missing out by not having a home. And I didn't have debt also. I liked the flexibility of renting and having the convenience to be able to travel and making sure someone's taking care of my stuff. Yeah. And I didn't know what city was going to be in. But you're more flexible. Yeah, exactly. If you're renting, like if you want to move cities in a different job versus what do I do now?

1:08:33The house isn't selling and I got to get to this job. Like you're more planted when you become a homeowner. It's not easy to get out. There could be tax implications if you sell too soon. So it definitely complicates things. But overall, it's a great part of your wealth building journey. And I encourage everyone to do it. But don't feel pressured and don't do it before you're ready. Is there such a thing as good debt versus bad debt? Well, I wrote a chapter in the book called Debt is a Thief. And it's not bad debt is a thief. It's just debt is a thief. Wow. And so the hot take here is that your greatest wealth building tool is your income.

1:09:05And when you're giving any part of that to a lender, you don't have your greatest wealth building tool at your disposal completely. And so I've never seen, you know, you always hear stories about people leveraging debt And mortgages, in a sense, with your home appreciating, people are like, well, that's good debt. But it doesn't mean we want to hang on to the debt. The home is the part that's amazing. It's not hanging on to the debt. And even with these low interest rates, people feel stuck because they have a 2%, 3 % interest rate on their home. They're like, I can never get rid of this house.

1:09:36I can never sell because I'll lose this precious debt. The idea that we're so obsessed and attached to our debt shows how far off the beaten path we are as a culture. So I truly don't believe there's good debt and bad debt because I've only seen debt hurt people. And the people that say they're winning, like it's easy to go on TikTok and be like, well, it worked for me and you should do it too. That's terrible advice because you don't know this other person's situation and what life's going to throw at them. And so it always adds risk. You see a lot of people, especially in kind of the real estate space saying, you know, it's the only good debt you can have is when you're borrowing money to like get real estate.

1:10:14and you're buying more to have more real estate and it's compounding interest over time or you're building equity in that or whatever it might be. And you have 10 homes now, but you're all in debt with all these homes. You're borrowing it from the previous home. And unfortunately, there was a guy I met, I don't know, earlier this year. I only met him once, but we had a nice kind of two-hour dinner conversation. And unfortunately, it was public about a month or two ago that he committed suicide because he was a real estate guy. He had invested in way too much. Overleveraged. over leveraged. He had a, just had his first child and it would, the pressure was too much for him to take on.

1:10:51How am I going to pay this off now? It was like some, some building that he invested in or something he was developing, he was investing. And, uh, he had a lot of, I guess, net worth on paper, but then it was over leveraged and the pressure was too much. And he took his own life about a month or a month, two ago, two ago. And it's just like, again, And you hear some people saying like, yeah, it's cool to have debt, but until you feel like everyone's calling you and collecting and you don't know what to do and you can't get access to money to pay this off, are you emotionally stable enough to manage that chaos and stress in your life?

1:11:28Yeah. Do you want that in your life? And I don't know all the details of what actually happened, but I do know that more money doesn't always mean more peace. Yes. Sometimes more money means more pain if you're not educated or emotionally ready for that amount of money. And do you think that is, do you think if people got written a million dollar check today and they were in debt, do you think their lives would be better or more stressful? Well, I think money magnifies who you are. And if you've never managed a lot of money, it's scary. Because if you haven't managed the little money you've had well, what makes you think you're going to manage a million dollars well?

1:12:10Just because you have more of it doesn't mean you're going to make wise decisions. And we see this with the data on lottery winners. It's gone. Like, how did you blow? We got a call the other day. And this guy's like, I won a million bucks. And it was gone within a few years. Really? And he just blew it. Doesn't take much, you know? And so it was really sad because a million bucks in the lottery is really$600 ,000. And you spend$100 ,000 a year for six years. Gone. The money's gone. Yeah. Not that crazy to do. And so, I mean, you've had our friend Dave Ramsey on this show multiple times and he shared his story of bankruptcy and he was over leveraged in real estate.

1:12:43The bank called the notes and he couldn't sell off the properties fast enough and it destroyed his life. Wow. It almost destroyed his marriage. And so, you know, there's a reason Dave is so risk averse when it comes to debt. And now he has a$600 million real estate portfolio with the Ramsey headquarters and all kinds of properties. And he paid cash for every dang one. That's incredible. He doesn't have a cent of debt. And so to me, it's inspiring to go like, you don't have to, there's not this one game you have to play to be a real estate investor. You can do it differently. You can go slow until you can go fast.

1:13:16And that's what Dave did. Because when you have all paid for properties, that thing cash flows like a mother. And so all of a sudden, pretty quickly, you have enough cash to deploy and get more property. Right. And so it's a different game. It's the tortoise versus the hare, but Dave's real peaceful with this property. You know what I mean? Like no one's ever coming after him to collect. Exactly. And so that puts you in control. Your book, Breaking Free from Broke, The Ultimate Guide to More Money and Less Stress. People can grab it right now. It's out. So make sure you guys go pick up a copy, get one for your friends as well.

1:13:48A lot of great content in here to help you get free from the stress of debt and just understanding your money better. So congrats on this. Thank you. A couple of final questions for you. This one's called The Three Truths. So I'm going to shift it for you a little bit differently. Okay. I'd like you to imagine that this was your last day on earth. And for whatever reason, you would have to take all of your content with you. This book wasn't around, your YouTube channel, anything you've ever shared isn't around and you didn't get to watch your daughter grow up but you get to leave behind three lessons to her and this is all she would have to remember you by it could be a video that she would get to watch as many times for the rest of her life what would be those three truths or three lessons you would leave to her man that's like dropping an atom bomb here if i can need to film one of those videos that's like in the in case i die video and it's like here's the lessons lewis asked me to make this video for you exactly oh man it doesn't have to be perfect i'm putting you on the spot but what would those kind of lessons be it wouldn't always be to her but to the world what would be those lessons i remember watching the last episode of uh conan o 'brien's late night show and i it has stuck with me and he talks about cynicism and his final plea on the show is please do not be cynical.

1:15:17And that's part of the reason I wrote this conclusion. It goes far beyond money. And my lesson to her is don't be cynical. Hope is a choice. Cynicism is choice. I hope you choose hope. And so that would be my first lesson to her because life is so much better and richer when you choose hope. Even though it's the hard thing to do, it's the stupid cheesy thing to do. Gosh, there's no use. You're drinking your own poison when you just walk around cynical towards the world. And that leads to, I think, other lessons, which is kindness is currency. Like kindness is such an underrated superpower in today's world.

1:15:57It diffuses bad attitudes. I mean, it's the best revenge. You know what I mean? Just to be like just unreasonably kind to people regardless of what's happening. I think that's a really cool thing. And the last thing I would say is not caring about what other people think is a superpower. If she can avoid comparisons, especially in the Lord knows what kind of world she'll grow up in with social media and the stuff that kids are getting into it, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 years old and how it shapes their image of themselves. Like I want to raise a daughter who is so confident, so kind, and she knows exactly who she is.

1:16:41And no man, no woman is going to change that because she is so confident in her goals, her values, her identity, her family. And that to me is the most powerful thing is if you can have that kind of mentality of I'm not going to compare my life to others. I'm doing my own thing. I'm going to be kind to everyone I meet. And I'm going to be a hopeful person instead of a cynical person. And I think that will bleed into all of the financial principles that I'm out here preaching. Delayed gratification is going to be part of that. Wealth is patience is going to be part of that. You're going to be a person of character who's going to build wealth the right way and have the work ethic if you believe those things.

1:17:20And I think those are the people who ultimately become wildly successful. It's not the evil people out there who got on the backs of others. It's people with integrity and kindness who were optimistic about the future. And we need that more than ever. I love that I love that man well Mia's got a great great future I hope so she'll have you to to raise her to teach those things as well this is her by the way oh man that's cute wow that's awesome man thank you on that uh breaking free from broke the ultimate guide to more money less stress make sure you guys get your copy from George Camel also check out your channel on YouTube if want more great content from George George Camel and your name everywhere on social media I love this stuff, man.

1:18:03This is really powerful. I want to acknowledge you, George, for a moment for being an example for a lot of people. A lot of people who started out or maybe right now are in debt. They got student loans. Maybe they haven't made the best decisions because they weren't educated or they didn't know any better. You're a great example of what's possible with commitment, with consistency, and with really educating yourself and being disciplined over a period of time and how you can break free from that. So it's really cool to see live examples of individuals right now who are young. How old are you again?

1:18:3834. 34, yeah. So it doesn't take 50 until you get debt-free and feel like the sense of financial freedom. It doesn't have to take forever. It's just being disciplined, and you've been consistent with that. So I acknowledge you. Thank you. Of course. Final question for you, what's your definition of greatness? Ooh. My definition of greatness. Oh, I want to beat everyone else, but I don't have a good enough answer. You've had some greats on this show. My definition of greatness is a relentless perseverance for excellence. I think that's the thing I admire in anyone I meet is they're just not okay with anything less than excellent.

1:19:21And it's not out of a place of perfectionism or I want to be better than everyone. It's a personal race against themselves and their own creativity and ingenuity and innovation. I think Dave Ramsey has that. I think it's why people love him. And that also bleeds into the other character traits we talked about of having integrity and being kind. So I think that's what I'm after is a relentless perseverance of excellence in everything that I do.

1:20:12a review over on Apple Podcast, and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I wanna remind you that you are loved, You are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.