“The Real Reason Couples Split!” Kate Daly on The Silent Signs Of Divorce!

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1:33Discover the point at rothys.com. That's R-O-T-H-Y-S dot com. So the post-nup is like divorce insurance. It's gone the other way now. She spent all mine and kept all that. I'm coming for her now. If we split up, the man of my dreams came along. Probably will, Marion. You're cock-blocking my new relationship. John Gottman developed a system for being able to tell whether a couple would get divorced or not. So... Oh, bollocks. I don't want to get divorced.

2:08Hello and welcome to The Therapy Crouch with me, Abbey Clancy. Me, Peter Crouch. And me, Gaz. Me, Gaz. Hello, guys. We've got a divorce specialist on today. Yes, we do. We mentioned it last week that we should get one on and we've only gone and bloody done it. We've only gone and bloody done it. Getting ideas, babe? Maybe. I just want to see where I stand. See where you stand, yeah. Okay. Do you know what? In prepping for this episode, we pulled up some interesting facts, didn't we, collectively? Yeah, I've got them here funny enough, Gaz. Oh, yeah? Yeah. The average UK marriage lasts 12.7 years before divorce.

2:44Wow. Out of the woods then, hopefully. Well, I think we're in the higher echelon of marriage. Nice. That's crazy though, isn't it? That's so common. 12 years. Jesus. Well, it is common. I think everyone knows. I don't understand it. Everyone's got a friend who's divorced at least one. Yeah. I don't understand when like 65 year olds get divorced. Or like 70 year olds. Well, there's a stat. Do you guys know the oldest divorcing couple? I'm just reading it here. The oldest couple divorced or getting divorced are 99 and 96. Can you imagine? Surely just ride that one out, no? Surely. He left her after 60 years over love letters he found from the 40s.

3:25Oh. Imagine that. Sorry, she cheated on him in the 40s by the written word. How crazy is that? I've just got goosebumps. That is heartbreaking there. Oh, my God. That is heartbreaking. What a slut.

3:40Oh,

3:44we're joking. Oh, my God. He must have been devil. Imagine that. Oh, he's done 60 years. knowing you're going to die with the person you love and to find that. That is heartbreaking right at the end, isn't it? Why would she keep the love letters? It must have been her true love. Oh, damn. I don't want to get into that. I'm going to cry. Don't cry, baby. I'm going to cry. Women file for nearly two-thirds of UK divorces. That's 63%. I'm not shocked at that. You men. You men. Jesus. The Maldives has the world's highest divorce rate. What? And once hit a record 10.97 per thousand people. Isn't that crazy?

4:27God, how could anyone have any stresses in the Maldives? It's almost the opposite. Actually, I did some digging. It's so cheap to get married and divorced there. Everyone's more free. They like marry and divorce freely and they live there. Oh, so it's... That's why it's so high. So they're a bit more promiscuous? I think so. I think it's kind of what, yeah, the internet was telling me. Also, if you go to the Maldives, like we're fortunate enough to have been there, there's not a lot to do. Yeah, to be fair. Once you've swam a bit, like built a sandcastle, you're kind of out. You're done. See, I disagree with her.

4:59No, I love it, but I'm just saying if you lived there... Mali's a busy city. Yeah, no, it was quite busy. We were on the islands. But I suppose if you go like where we stayed... I thought there was plenty to do. You know it, baby. Jim Rummy. Oh, yeah, hell yeah. Snap. Monopoly deals, all of that. Uno. No fault divorce only became a law in England and Wales in April. What's that? An application jumped 50 % in the first fortnight. No fault divorce. No fault divorce. So it's like you don't have to state a reason, it's just divorce. Oh, right. I imagine it's like, you know. Have you just made that up?

5:37I just made it up, yeah. That might not be. Excuse me for the talk of it. You're awful. Yeah, it's boring. The way I took that is like, you have to state a reason a fault I hope you're right is that right? you know what I think that's true but I'm not an expert that's why I've got the expert on yeah you bang on yeah well you don't have to prove any wrongdoing or any fault yeah I'm not a pretty face you are you are first Monday of January is nicknamed Divorce Day that's just like the Monday what January blues whatever it says here it's when solicitors get the most tap-ups from people. Yes, it's like you spend Christmas with them and you're like, oh, I'm done.

6:22And it's also New Year's resolution time, isn't it? It's all? Yeah, New Year's resolution. It's like, I'm not being with that arsehole anymore. I want to wash them around. I don't know. Interesting, though. Grey divorce. Couples over 50 is the fastest growing divorce group in the UK. So we're not out of the woods, babe. Oh, God. No. All that to come. Japan has a 600 year old divorce temple Tokiji that was once a legal escape route for women in bad marriages this is a belt of this so you go as a woman you do three years as a nun in this temple it's still there and then you're cleansed of your marriage basically they wipe it away that sounds like a bit of a con to me there do you reckon the divorce temple when you go to the temple and then what but is that void so the marriage is void Yeah, it was their escape route.

7:12So for centuries, it was a sanctuary for women fleeing bad marriages. If a woman took refuge and served there. I'm sorry, so they went there on their own accord? Of their own accord, yeah. Oh, okay. Sorry, I thought they were like taken there. Why are you pulling the face, Chris? Sounds like the women's shelter, doesn't it, a little bit? Well, it's refuge, which I suppose is, you know, it doesn't matter if it's spiritual or not. It's a place for... Yeah, maybe refuge is better than the divorce temple, which sounds quite punchy as a name, doesn't it? Well, it sounds quite spooky, doesn't it? Took a G.

7:39but you know, I suppose it's a good, a good thing. Some interesting facts there. Who knew divorce could be so fun? Fun facts, fun divorce facts. It's the therapy card folks. That's what we bring in. Let's get into it.

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9:22No mess, no stress. So whether you're hosting a dinner party or spending an afternoon baking treats with all your friends, and you want to focus on hosting and not constantly swatting at bugs, Zeevo has you covered with 24-7 bug protection. Plug in a Zeevo flying insect trap so you can work smarter, not harder, and actually enjoy your time at home. We are joined by Kate Daly, co-founder of Amicable, which is the online legal relationship service and the host of the Divorce podcast. Yes. Does that scare you? yeah well i i'm you know it's concerning that we have you on today i don't know if this is ab's idea or i just wanted a little bit of advice you know yeah okay but i don't think people ever divorce me because he thinks it's cheaper to stay with me than you know well yeah what would your advice be on that i mean i imagine it is very costly mind you i'll say the same thing no i'm just asking i mean it is costly right i mean the whole thing i think it doesn't have to be costly so if you can do things amicably that brings the cost down considerably i mean that in the general sense not in my company sense but the more you're able to talk about it the more you're able to think about your kids and prioritizing the kids in any relationship the more likely you are to come to an agreement that works for both of you and that most importantly keeps you as a solid parenting team because ultimately that's what you want isn't it yeah yeah so we we dove in at the deep end there for our listeners could you just tell us a bit what you do for those who don't know yet what's amicable firstly so amicable is a couple service for people who are interested in either building a relationship or separating from a relationship is it like a therapy to either keep couples together or help them through a divorce not therapy it's about helping them do the legal paperwork around either coming together so we do prenups postnups living together agreements so when you're getting together in the first place it's often a bit chaotic isn't it's a bit it's all in your head and your heart and you love each other you just want to move in and sometimes you're accidentally making really important serious repercussions decisions that will have massive impacts later on in life so it's about bringing a bit of sort of more thought to that process and then at the other end of the scale if you've decided the relationship is over we help people divorce and separate but the thing that makes us completely different to everybody else is we work with couples and we're about trying to get you to think about this in a non-conflicted way yeah because i think if anything like that you know as you say when you do meet someone or you buy a house together or you get engaged it's all you know romantic and that kind of it's kind of hard it's a hard subject to bring up because it sours the grapes and takes the romance out of it i want to marry you but sign this prenup or let's buy a house together but sign this so if we split up you can't have half of it well that's because we've taken our model from the american model which is exactly as you say it's like we see it on the tv don't we i mean i grew up in the days of dynasty and dallas and all that kind of stuff and it was absolutely prevalent in those in those sorts of shows but i think if you turn that round and say we know nearly 50 of marriages break down and if you're cohabiting you're between three and five times more likely to go through a relationship breakup.

12:49So we know every year, there are tons of people going through this, it's not a niche event. So if you take it from that perspective and say, well, look, if we think it's a possibility, just the same as you know, we will have insurance, don't we for our homes, our cars, all that kinds of things. We're not saying it's gonna happen. Sure. But we're prepped if it is, we've got some cover if it is, you take it from that perspective and say, when would you rather be having that conversation when you absolutely hate each other and the shit's hit the fan or when you're on good terms, your rational brain's engaged and you're able to think about what's right for both of you.

13:27It must be a certain type of person who comes into you though because I can't imagine this is for everyone. What, in terms of... The thing is, sorry, I always put things back into football terms, But if I'm signing a four-year contract with a football club, there's enough due diligence, you know, yet you're about to enter into a marriage, I suppose, and play for that club. Everything's done to the book. So if you leave, if things go bad, if you've got release clause, this kind of stuff, injury, everything's – you go into maybe potentially a 50-year contract. So if I'm signing for 50 years to someone, you should probably go through the small print.

14:08Yeah. fuck you it's like Chelsea's contracts but yeah that's exactly the point isn't it because it's such a massive commitment and you're going to have little people sometimes as a consequence of this commitment so it's not just about you anymore you've got these little guys who don't have any say in it you want to know that everyone in this is protected surely so yeah I think there is a culture change that's needed I think we need to stop seeing it as some rich and powerful person stopping you getting the money from somebody else I think we have to stop seeing it in that term and instead see it as as a couple it doesn't matter what which way we're coming in whether I've got the money or you've got the money as a couple we should talk about this and I always think if you're not talking about money on the second date that's a bit of a red flag for me I think I disagree have to have the conversation about money on the second date yeah because you've already someone's already paid the bill on the first day you've already fallen into the trap of having an unspoken conversation about money so why not why are we so so i think on the first date the man should pay yeah but i think i get the romance side of it i just think that's the thing is good manners yeah but the thing i i agree i i paid on the phone i didn't really you got a couple of drinks Yeah, that was a red flag.

15:30That was a red flag for me. I was like, he went to the loo and I was like, oh, do you want a drink? I'll get the next one. He said yes. I was horrified. I was like, sorry, what? That's a long story, that one. I was on the way to the toilet. I would have got them, but she offered. And I said, okay. I just thought, that's not a gentlemanly thing to do. There is an unspoken kind of associated to like, who's going to pay for this? I'd love to take you away on the weekend. Do I pay for that? Yes. No, I know. No, I did. No, you see, I say no. I say yes. No, I don't want to be obligated. I want to know that it's...

16:06But it's not an obligation. That's like, it's amazing. If your boyfriend wants to take you away for the weekend and whisk you away, how romantic is that? Yeah, that's lovely. You're not obliged. When they know you and they want to do that. But in those first few dates, you're testing each other out. Nobody is looking after the other person. That's creating, I think, an old-fashioned culture of dependency. see in those first dates we're all in it for ourselves we're working out whether this is going to work whether we want to see each other again why should one of you pay for that to me that's uh we're both in this we know what we're doing we're on a date we're seeing how the land lies that's an equal thing yeah if at a later point you're right somebody wants to do something lovely for you then fine you can do something lovely for me when you know me but don't just do something for me on the first date because that's the convention i no let's i just think that's starting it with an argument i don't see that as a dissolve in an argument do you know i mean i think that goes in kind of like i think that's going in quite back upy not i think you can't pay for my drink you know you don't know me you can't i think i can offer and that's fine and i think that's the thing but i think having conversations and getting out we've all got a story about money yeah because we've grown up in families with different attitudes to money we've grown up in different circumstances yeah so whether we raise it or not on the first or second date it's kind of irrelevant we're walking into a relationship with that baggage yeah and to pretend it isn't there until the shit hits the fan and you're at a point where you're separating feels like a bit it feels that feels weird to me I think that's what we've got to change I think as well, though, like if you're on a date with someone who has got money, you kind of avoid it.

17:56Talking about it because, you know, already going back to like my personal experience of dating a man who clearly had more money than me at the time. Because he was a Premier League footballer. Who was that? He's big. He's rich. you know it was kind of you know there was this battle of you're only with them for us money or you know so to have conversations about money was difficult because it was kind of you had to not mention it yeah you know go the complete opposite because otherwise if you brought money up or discussed it you'd be like oh god you're only with them for us money or yeah that kind of I think that's why you might think I'm, you know, finding a different view here, but I personally couldn't do that with particularly you.

18:50Do you know what I'm trying to say? No. You don't? I know what you're trying to say. It's an awkward situation. Yeah, it's an awkward, yeah, you wouldn't want to talk about money because there's a lot of money involved. Like if you're going out with a Premier League footballer, so. Well, yeah, I mean, that was, that was obvious, you know, in the early days, that was very much like the case, didn't it? Like people were saying it. Yeah. And probably still do. But also you've got to think about probably the majority of people listening aren't going to be in that situation. And come to the table more equal.

19:22The majority of people that I talk to, including yourselves, I haven't spoken to, I'd just like to say. I don't talk to people who are in that situation very often. I'm talking to people who, where their situation is different in the sense that... And the common interrelationship almost equal kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. But also, particularly in the younger age group, there are many more people who are, like women work the same way as men do. It's only when you get to that motherhood penalty where you see the big divergence in career earnings and that kind of stuff. But up to that point, it's often pretty equal now.

19:58Do you think the way that marriage is set up and weddings and the old school kind of way that we're doing things. Do you think that's outdated? On one hand, I don't think it matters what I think. No, but I just wondered what you thought of your opinion was. It's that the younger people coming through today feel it's outdated and lots of people don't marry in the same way. Well, yeah, I kind of like, you know, you can still be so happy without being married, you know? My sister's getting married Thursday and... This is amazing time. Yeah, I know. Unbelievable timing. So she might need to give you a call before I don't know.

20:36And obviously Pete and I did the big wedding thing. And, you know, we've been together 21 years. I would love you the same if we were married or not. Yeah, but for my daughter, I would be like, you know, don't be rushing to get married. Focus on your career. Focus on yourself. Buy a house first before you do all of that. I think there's so many more important things in life than that. Because it seems like it doesn't. Because if you're not married, then there's no drama if you split up. Well, there is still drama. I don't believe that for a second. No, I don't. You know, when I say drama, but, you know, how does it work?

21:15So if you're not married and you split up, is it still like 50-50-y thing? No, because a lot of people think there's this thing called common-law husband and wife. So you live together. You cohabit. You live together, whatever. and that after a certain period of time, magically the gods besow some kind of settlement on you that you get the rights that you would if you were married. But that's not the case. There aren't any rights or very few rights and the very few rights that there are are very complicated and difficult to enforce. So it's actually worse in some senses. Marriage gives you a whole bunch of protections that just living together doesn't give you.

21:57but the government are consulting at the moment and asking whether or not as a society we want to change that and there's a big divide some people say no because they want to protect their freedoms and other people say but there's a whole bunch of people who don't realize they don't have any protection and particularly if you're in a vulnerable situation so you might be living with somebody you might have given up your career you might therefore be staying at home looking after kids and you have no rights whereas if you're married and that happens and you go through a divorce you have rights and you're protected so i didn't think of it like that well it's so it's so difficult because you've got that side of it when you and you think oh god those people deserve you know what they what they what they should get you know what they should get should be what they get but then you have the other side of people abusing the system of marrying someone for that only the reason of having those rights.

22:51Yeah, exactly. And then never loving them or, you know, and then leaving. And, you know, being in the industry that I'm in, you hear horror stories all the time of that. Yeah, I can imagine, yeah. You know, and obviously I was told as a young player, by an older player, 30, that... Mario Rich Woman, he said. He was, no, that was another story. But that was a certain player. But this certain player had gone through an awful, awful divorce and his wife had cheated on him and left, you know, and she got the house. Yeah. So he had to move out of his house. That he bought. You know, she wasn't working, he was.

23:31She got the house, she stayed with the kids and the guy that she cheated on moved into the house. Yeah, that's tough, isn't it? I just think, you know, with, you know, we've talked about suicide and things like that, you know, that is a huge topic of discussion at the moment, right? Like, I can understand that in that circumstance, I mean, he was okay with it over time, you know, he got to learn to do... But as a man, to deal with that, and I know there's horrible cases for women as well, but obviously this is just the case that I know. That is, I mean, how do you deal with that? And how is that right?

24:03I think the thing there is you've got to... We all have a view, don't we, on what's fair and right. And clearly from a sort of moral perspective, that feels very wrong, doesn't it? but the law isn't interested in that and i think that's the mistake sometimes people make and that's why things get out of hand and they end up spending tens of thousands of pounds with solicitors and going through courts and all that kind of stuff waste all your money on the solicitors exactly yeah and they're taking they're the people who walk out of this with a nice new car or a promotion or whatever and you're the people who are the left trying to divide what you've got a lot less than what you started with but i think the law doesn't care in that sense about behavior in the way that we might agree as people chatting that behavior should be taken into account or that's not fair or that doesn't feel right okay it's very black and white the law is much more sort of black and white about what the entitlements are and what has to happen so in that case you you said didn't you pete that the the wife didn't work so she has no mortgage capacity to get into the nitty-gritty of it she's got no mortgage capacity she needs a house she's entitled to have the same lifestyle that she's had during the marriage if that's affordable and therefore she gets the house because she there's no other way of her getting the getting her housing needs met she's looking after the kids so the court's first priority is usually to any children of the marriage so when you start to see it in those terms that scenario doesn't surprise me that's fairly commonplace yeah yeah it just it just i mean it's just morally it's like yeah like how does he i don't know how you deal with that can you imagine what what would your advice be for young people who were getting thinking of getting married then and what would you say to well i think I mean I think the first thing is you need to have some of these conversations because the thing that I see the other end of it when people are getting divorced is people who may have been married for 10 15 20 years they've had kids they've sort of done the whole thing and it's sort of almost accidentally happened so they've followed a pattern that feels quite normal to us you know they've got married had kids usually still wife has given up work yeah and therefore you know raised kids maybe gone back with a smaller part-time job yeah um not earning husbands still earning the big money and I think all of a sudden you come to get divorced and you're looking you're staring down the battle of retirement and you've got to split pensions and everything else and people are like well why am I giving away everything I've worked for from a male perspective but the point about marriage is we have what's called the law of equal contribution yeah and And that means whether you're the person now earning or the person homemaking.

26:53It's one household. It's one pot and you're dividing it as a starting point 50-50. But the thing, again, I think that we miss sometimes because with celebrity culture and everything else, we're used to those stories coming down from people with lots of money. But in reality, the majority of us don't have lots of money. And so the 50-50 principle often doesn't apply. sometimes you have to have quite a big difference 60 40 70 30 to the person who's got the greater need and that will be the person who earns less and or is looking after the children so I think we sometimes conflate this idea of what's fair and what's equal and lots of people will say oh just split everything in half that's fair but very often the court's not going to think that's fair and there's something more specific what would you say to like your you know a couple who come into you talk about it talk about talk about how you want your life to look have that honest conversation it doesn't have to be a mean conversation if we're getting married i can say to you what what do you think is going to happen when we get married are we going to have kids i mean most people i think would have the conversation about having kids before they got married so if you're having the conversation about having kids it's only another step to say and does that mean one of us is going to stay at home are we both going to stay at home are we going to go into jobs and careers where we're going to fight for equal paternity rights so that we can share that care of our kids how involved you're going to be as a mom slash dad am I going to work are you going to work have those conversations at least in principle so you know where each other stands on the issue yeah and then you can have an agreement that says i'm going to take two years out then you're going to take two years out or i'm going to be the one that stays at home or you're going to be the one that stays at home but knowing that and having had that conversation if something then goes wrong you're in a way better place and you can document it you can have it written down formally is that like a legally binding thing well prenups as they're called yeah so agreements before you get married are not automatically legally binding in this country so they are in america but not in the uk or england and wales technically as the jurisdiction is but that's part of what the government is consulting on should we have should we make prenups legally binding so that once you've made that agreement as long as you follow some steps which is keeping it updated so you can't make an agreement when you're in the first throes of marriage and just leave it in a drawer for 10 years yeah you have to revisit it certain events like having kids moving abroad big jumps in salary fame fortune all of those things mean you have to go back and update it but if you do it like that and if you take legal advice on the agreement so you both know what you're signing then the the idea is and you do it sufficiently in advance of the wedding so there's no pressure on either of you to sign it or it's all off again your name's on the tea towel kind of thing if you don't if you do all of those things then the government is thinking about making it a legally binding document you obviously read in your story it's an amazing like amazing story with regards to obviously you've been through divorces yourself what you said one was amicable and one was a little bit more difficult i think i called it A train wreck.

30:19A train wreck. I didn't want to say train wreck. That's the polite version. The polite version, obviously. But then you've ended up kind of going to court, not with your husband, with the establishment. Establishment, yeah. So I take it your opinion on kind of divorce lawyers is quite low. Well, some of them are nice. Some of them are my best friends. But I mean, I think the system is what's wrong rather than the individuals. We have a system in this country, don't we, where if we walked out now down the street and said to people, what do you do when you get divorced? Most people would say, oh, you go and see a solicitor.

31:00That's kind of what we are trying to change because you don't need to see a solicitor. And if we get divorced and you go to your solicitor, they'll tell you your best case scenario. I'll go to mine. They'll tell me my best case scenario. we'll both believe and you'll battle straight away yeah because we'll both believe we're right because it's the solicitor that's told us and we'll be polarized instantly because i've got mine over here you've got yours over there they've opened a big gap and we'll spend tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds arguing our way to a middle point which is ridiculous and by that point most of the what you're going to get will be gone anyway yeah exactly and that's like real stuff it's a bedroom it's a garden it's a walk to school versus a drive to school it's all of those things that actually have a massive impact on people's lives and i think that system of you know the the adversarial legal system isn't the place to organize families i just don't think it is because it requires people to take sides and i don't know about you but families don't have sides yeah I don't get that you know they just don't have sides and shouldn't have sides ultimately what you're trying to do is preserve your cash at a time when you know you really need to most people can't afford to make two houses out of one even if they're smaller housing just doesn't work like that you know careers and jobs and all of that kind of stuff if you're not earning equal amounts of money then someone's got to pay maintenance and it's just it's hard to make the numbers work and if you're then paying for a solicitor and you're trying to get what's best for the individual i don't see how that works in a family because it becomes a zero-sum game so if i win you lose yeah you're still the father of my child yeah and therefore who is really losing our kids the kids yeah and i suppose it gets to a position where they're like almost picking a side you know to go to you know i'd believe mom or i'd believe dad and i want to live and you're just creating problems but also that you just as a child you need two parents who can work together they don't have to like each other that's fine you don't have to pretend that you love each other or anything like that but you have to be able to work in a team i'm sure there were people you played with you didn't particularly like but you worked as a team you've got a job to do you're you know you are paid to do a job and it's the same with parenting you've got a job to do you've got to try and make it work but i think the thing with the lawyers is as well the system works in a way that if you're a lawyer in a big law firm your career is predicated on how much you bill and if you bill more that's interesting you will rise to the top yeah and what is going to help you bill around conflict yeah so the whole system is flawed mean to it's not that these go out and think right what am i going to do today i'm going to stir up some trouble between mr and mrs crouch they're not thinking that but inadvertently everything they're measured on everything that creates success for them actually requires them to build more and conflict is the easiest way to build more it feels like the two of you when you split up i think it probably would it could even start okay i think when you involve other people and their opinions who are certainly on your side and not the side of your partner then becomes a battle yeah well the solicitors will be like oh you're just going to settle for that you should you deserve this and then the other one will go no she doesn't or no he doesn't did it and then it doesn't end yeah can i ask going back to your story uh when you did take the establishment to court as it were what was going on there kind of what was happening in that time and you won and you right yeah otherwise you've You took it to me from prison, yeah.

34:51Was it that bad? Could you have gone to prison? Well, the judge did say when we were standing in the court, the penalty for effectively impersonating a solicitor, which is what the crime would have been had we not won, was two years in jail, up to two years in jail. This was five days before Christmas. I'm a single mum, five days before Christmas. My kids are little at this point and I'm thinking, oh, my God, I can't like that. That cannot be this outcome. It just, you know, it can't. um but no i mean i think what the the establishment was trying to prove was whether or not working with a couple was legal or not because to me you need less conflict not more conflict when you're going through something as difficult as separating money property working out how you're going to look after kids and co-parent and everything so our whole sort of mission has been to work with couples not individuals so to stop this kind of row before it starts to stop having somebody in your ear telling you what your best case scenario is and what you could get and to actually sit down and say right this is this is the pool of money and property and assets that we've got these are what we need how then to like a problem solving session a better way how do we sort out that we've we've got to have three things we've got to have somewhere to live enough money to live on and we've got to have some form of retirement plan that's the problem we're trying to solve and so by working with couples we set up a business that effectively helped them do that and the establishment was trying to find out is that legal or is there technically a conflict of interest and are we entitled as not a legal firm to draft the document that sorts all that out at the end called a consent order so they were the two big points that we had to go on and they were the two points that we proved you know we were perfectly legal and the judge ended up saying actually this is a really good system we have to kind of stand up in the dock and tell him what we were doing exactly sort of thread to the needle this is what we do this is how we do it and he said actually you know what this is a really good system and it's a real kind of feather in the cap for access to justice because using a solicitor costs thousands of pounds most people haven't got thousands of pounds to spend on this stuff what do the those people do what how do you well i will say our biggest competition is an excel spreadsheet because most people there's what we call unmet and legal need in this country so 65 of people don't go and speak to anybody about this kind of stuff and will sell a house split the money between them sort stuff out between them but they're left in quite a vulnerable position because it's never over until it's over unless they both remarried at any point in the future somebody can come back and make a claim against you and dale vince who's the eco warrior com electricity kind of guru energy guru he had exactly that situation happen to him so his wife came they were poor as anything lived in a caravan they had a baby um they divorced didn't do a consent order she came back a decade later and claimed once he was a multi-millionaire because she'd struggled raising their child without any help.

38:09And she wanted to make sure that she was going to be okay. Yeah. So that's why it's really important. I don't understand that. Because I kind of get the fact that, you know, he's got a child there, right? Yes. And I don't know if you're living one way with one parent and another completely different. Yeah. that is the child's going to lean towards the easier life maybe you do what i mean like i can my initial thought is oh my god how dare she but then i think there is actually a case as well for there is for the other side as well there's two sides to every story yeah but also you've you know you can sort that out by having this document called a consent order that's the key thing so Do we need one of these?

38:57That's what you get when you divorce. You might want a post-nup. So a post-nup is where when you're married, effectively it's like divorce insurance. You agree now what would happen if you went your separate ways and you do it, like I said at the beginning, when you're on good terms. It's gone the other way now. She spent all mine and kept so low. I'm coming for her now. you can see me afterwards so we do we probably should do a post nub well why not something productive out of today can I just say it's very interesting it's very interesting we're probably we're probably not doing a podcast here we're just like I'm very interested in this you're not too interested am I I like it it's something that you don't I don't think like I don't go wake up in the morning and go do you know I want to chat some out about divorce today do you know what I mean Yeah, that's what I mean.

39:52It's taken you to come here to chat about these things. I don't see it. You're not chatting about divorce. You're chatting about just the same way, you know, when you think about insurance or whatever. If you go and have your health checks or whatever, or you do your private medical, whatever, you're not chatting about dying. No. You're chatting about sensible precautions to make your life as good as it can be. And you're investing in your kid's future ultimately because that must be most people I speak to, their primary concern is the kids, is what's going to happen to the kids. And for a lot of dads...

40:27We don't have to... Post-nup, we could do a kind of... It's kind of like a will, isn't it, really? Yeah, but post-nup, that's what it is. I mean, we've got wills, you know, if things, if the worst happens there. But did you know you can... Well, the inevitable rather than the worst. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'll be early. I mean, hopefully not. You know, I could go and change my will without you knowing and vice versa. Can you believe that? I change mine all the time. I do? Yeah. That's how I feel on that particular day. Today it's okay. So you'll do that. No, but it's, I didn't know that. So if you went with your partner and you did a will or whatever.

41:02That's your personal thing. That's your, that's your, you're not personal to you. Yeah, but they could change it without you knowing. You could change it. The other person. Kaz told me this. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's an individual thing, isn't it? It is, but sometimes you might have put things in your will, like who's going to care for your kids if something happens to both of you and that kind of stuff. So there are some joint things. Yeah. So if one of you change that, that would be messy. I think it's crazy that. Yeah. We should do a post-nup then. Yeah, okay. But you are best doing it when you're in a good mood.

41:32Yeah, 100%. Yeah. But if you think about it, it's sensible. It's a mature thing to do. But if you did do a post-nup and go, you know, let's just call it 50-50 for argument stake right now, then if we did split up you know where you stand there's no arguments and then it would just be like you know can i can i ask about custody like of children so what you know um i'm interested just you can have them

42:07i was just going back to like when the men are bigger earners and they go out and it's like you wouldn't be able to go out to work if I wasn't at home looking after the kids and doing all the other things. That is genuinely an argument isn't it because you are facilitating somebody else's career and that means you're facilitating not just their income now but their pension. I do I do get that yeah I totally get that. I feel like we might be ganging up on you in a minute. no no i think he's due on custody then no no i'm just asking like how it's obviously it's it's quite rare for the man to get like full custody whereas a woman is more likely to is that is that still that's quite a that's quite a common perception or the first thing is we don't have custody that again that's the an old-fashioned term so we have lives with arrangements now so so nobody gets custody everybody has what's called parental responsibility if they're on the birth certificate.

43:08So if your name is on the birth certificate as a dad, mums automatically have it. You can get parental responsibility through a court application if you're not on the birth certificate for whatever reason. So you have parental responsibility. So that means both of you are responsible for your kids. You then are expected now to work out what the best arrangement is for your kids and how you want to share the care. and sharing the care is way more common so the old idea of dad sitting in mcdonald's at the weekend stuff that's what i had i'd see my dad like once a week yeah it's that's rarer and rarer and most people want to be more actively involved and so most people are looking at how they can minimize the disruption because what you don't want is your kids in a desperate bid to keep everything equal you don't want your kids like traveling between two houses so many people do that now every single other day or whatever a week on a week off well week on a week off kids can cope with that depending on their age so that's not a bad that feels like a good way to me like you'd be doing during a week then weekends with dad then or you know a week with dad weekends with mom you don't like alternate it like that is that not how it would work yeah i couldn't do that though i'd like the weekend off who wouldn't want a weekend off when you've got small kids you need some downtime don't you so you've got to think about it in terms of what they need but also what's right for you as well because you're a better parent if you're a happy fulfilled parent if you're a parent who's knackered because they get the weekend shift all the time which is a lot of you know single mom just i know a lot of people what happens i'm 25 really yeah me too i mean that's a hard job jesus like i am i find a lot a lot of the time when the kids are with the mums in the week and then it's like brush your teeth do your homework sit down make your bed so you get you get all the bad jobs and then the dad turns up on the weekend's like right we're going to yeah disneyland today yeah bastards aren't they yeah no but you know what i mean though it's you have to be bad cop i know exactly what you mean yeah because you're responsible to the homework that go to bed get up you know that's really hard it is really hard but as a society we don't support a lot of kind of co-parenting, do we?

45:32Because we have work policies and stuff and a lack of flexibility. And we don't give men time off when kids are born so they don't bond in the same way. They do now, I think. Two weeks. I mean, you know. Yeah. It's not great. You didn't have any time off, did you? No, I trained that afternoon. Yeah. Did you? Did you? That's unbelievable. Literally. Yeah. That's wild. You feel the tumbleweed now, can't you? No, I do. that you're feeling judged. Listen, I was there all night and I was, you know, I was there for the birth but then I had a game on and it came on the next day. And then by now I was back in hospital, I was just living in a hospital for training.

46:09I was only in there for one night. I left at 10am the next morning. Yeah, those two days. You went to training and then come back and we left. It's crazy though. That's wild. This might be an absolute disaster but we are a light-hearted entertainment frothy show. I wonder if it's a sort of, if it's how I'd describe it, is a little game maybe around this. I don't know if there's anything you kind of do or do you like ever kind of, I don't know, make couples do things, wear together to make sure they decide it's the right thing for them. You mentioned to me something about Daniel Gorman or the...

46:41John Gottman. That was my mistake yesterday. For John Gottman and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Right. So we do this thing, is it over, should I leave? So like there's a guy, John Gottman, who was part of what they call the Love Lab. It was the 70s out of Washington University. And he developed a system for being able to tell and predict whether a couple would get divorced or not. Let's do it. Strap in, folks. So he had this four kind of key things that would predict the downfall of a relationship. So there's defensiveness, stonewalling, criticism and contempt, and contempt being the big red flag of the four.

47:25So if those four things show up in your relationship, that is a predictor of divorce. You don't need all four, but contempt is the one that absolutely... So what would contempt involve? Well, if I tell you that, I won't be able to do the quiz. Oh, sure. I didn't realise we were actually going to do the quiz. Let's do the quiz. Let's see how it goes. We have to be honest, okay? Yeah, of course. That's what we always are. Right, so I... I can't remember the questions without having them. Oh, do you want to pull it up? Yeah. Okay, one second. I don't know if I'd be a huge advocate for marriage for, like, my children.

47:58I know where I have... Like, because we've been together a long time, like, 21 years. Married 15 years. I just think there's so many... Like, it costs so much to get married. Yeah, that's what I think. There's so much more benefit that you can have in your life. Apart from being protected. Oh, yeah, I suppose. I mean, I've been married and divorced twice, and I would get married for a third time. Would you really? Yeah, absolutely. Never say never. I mean, you know, if you find someone you really love. Yeah. And maybe it's just taken me a long time to find someone I really love. I don't know. See, my scenario there would be, I've said, like, I've done that.

48:33And I think if you love me, then you won't get married to me. That's what I would be like. What do you mean if you love me, you won't get married to me? This is obviously hypothetical because I'm a happily married man. But I'm saying if I was divorced, I'm 99 % certain I wouldn't get married again. Really? I wouldn't get married again if we got divorced. Because? I just, I don't think that you need to. Yeah, but I think sometimes you want to show that commitment. I think that commitment's really amazing and lovely. Depends, because you're not in that snot. Yeah, well, because I was just about to say that, you know, we're still in love, so we're going off the fact that, you know, we couldn't possibly see us with someone else.

49:12But if we split up and, you know, the man of my dreams came along, probably we'll marry him. I think it's time for the quiz, don't you? On that note... Do you know what I mean, though? You're cock-blocking my new relationship.

49:32Oh, God. Oh, okay. Good night, the bit, babe. Moving swiftly on, then. Moving swiftly on. Well, let's see, then, if you're going to get divorced or not. Shall we? Oh, God. Okay, go on. What a game. Okay. Question one. toothpaste cap is off again do you say babe the cap or do you say you never think of anyone else but yourself oh I'd put the cap on and just put it back in the drawer myself are you asking me that question she should never leave the cap off finally get on okay i'm gonna have to mentally keep score that's zero points for that one i would have just thought guys who keeps doing it's good personally i would have just thought i've left the cap off there

50:27all right number two mid-argument do you ever catch yourself rolling your eyes and doing a sarcastic impression of the other person and the options are never or oscar worthy winning performance on a weekly basis i'd say never to me you're an eye roller i probably have yeah i have high rolled before but not loads and loads but yeah there has been a bit of like there she goes again okay that's three points three points three points on the table yeah okay oh bollocks i don't want to get divorced i'm coming people i'm asking honestly i'm going for the kill now then so peter raises something that you did wrong first words out of your mouth are fair enough i'm sorry no chance or well in 2019 you did this and that and then the other I know that it sounds funny to say that, but genuinely, and I think you can say this, if I do something wrong, I am the first to apologise and say, I was wrong there and I'm sorry.

51:40Okay. And I think you would say that. Pete, come on. Like, you've got to be serious now. I'm being serious. Yeah, I always admit when I'm wrong. Yeah, but you said, on the flip side of that, is that you would say, I'm never wrong. Yeah, but if I did something, if Pete technically not the question but okay if I said to Pete you've done this he'd go well last Friday you did that that's what he'd do to me okay is that true? yeah what's that hold on if you're in trouble he always so if I'm annoyed with him he will always turn it round to me something I've done why do I do that? are you joking? what's that turn it round to?

52:21you Pete I'm starting to think this quiz might not have been such a good idea No, you do. You do. I'm just drumming up business. That's all right. Hold on, so I'm just thinking what? No, you do. So if you're sharing something to me, I'll then go, but you did that. Yeah, say if I'm just going to make up a scenario. Say I'm annoyed at you because you've been on a golf trip or whatever, you'll turn it round to me, so then I end up apologising when an actual fact you've done something wrong. Well, but that's a whole different thing. That's not, let's just say I'm nasty there. That's a nasty thing to do, isn't it?

52:55No, it's just a tactic. It's a little gaslighting. It's a tactic. Is that your day? Anyway, okay, we're going to say... What are we going to say for the answers? So, what was the question? I'm just getting assassinated. My character's getting assassinated. It threw me off. In an argument, if Abby raises something about what you've done, what's the first words out of your mouth? Yep, okay, hands up, I'm sorry. Or, well, yeah, but... Oh, yeah, the other one, that one. That one, yeah. Right, that's two points. Two. Fuck, what's that five? Oh, okay. So mid-argument, mid-argument, do you suddenly remember you need to put the bins out and walk away?

53:38Oh, yeah, when I walk away. Is he actually putting the bins out or is he just walking out the room? Yeah, he walks out the room every time. Yeah. What about you? No. No, she'll stay. With my axe. She will stay. Okay, that's another two. Oh, Christ. fucking divorce. Well, you could pull it back here. You can pull it back here. This is a bonus question. Your chance to redeem yourself. Can you still make each other laugh mid-round? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Minus two. Minus two. Tell us the score and I'll tell you the... So, ended on zero first round, three second round, two third round, two fourth round, minus two fifth round.

54:17So it's five. Five. Ooh, you're okay. Oh, Jesus. You're okay. last minute winner there I was touch and go I was a tapping it is touch and go but you just need an MOT we had our MOT a few weeks ago I'll take an MOT yeah gosh that was scary oh that was nerve wracking I hope you learned something truth I've learned that while you're really thinking of it yeah Jesus I think that's a good result you've been together how long how many years 21 years yeah that's long enough with anyone I think after 21 years you've well overdue an MOT yeah exactly Exactly, yeah. Well, that's the other thing, isn't it, with all of this?

54:55Part of having a healthy relationship is working at it. Absolutely. And not leaving it to a crisis point until you go and have a chat about this kind of stuff. I think that's the key. Yeah. I think... It's hard work. I think in arguments, you know, our arguments, I would say, are few and far between proper ones. Yeah. And in that moment, I don't think you're the person that you want to be, are you? You know what I mean? You're not your best self, no. You're not your best self, are you? No. So... You're good at recognising that? Well, yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. Thanks to you, so what's the... You're a memorable fan, aren't you?

55:37I am. You are, yeah. Very much so. You'll be walking alone soon. Oh, I'm picking up. Oh, God. I'm getting that post-match sorted first. Well, do you know what? That was fun. I can't imagine spending 21 years plus with anyone. what like a mate imagine your best friend 21 years of them every day it's sharing a bed and stuff that's got quite a long time when you think about marriage like that it's quite well you know we're like oh we now are in the stage of we we've been together longer than we've been apart than we've been than i suppose been on the planet yeah wow that's impressive isn't it yeah what do you think then contributes to that why do you think you're still together what have you done i think we are each other's person i think we are family you know like me and him together obviously we have our rows and you know you can be a pain in the ass but you know i honestly believe neither of us could live without the other one and i think that's yeah i also think we have you don't go elsewhere for any for fun we don't need to you know what i mean yeah like i think quite often couples are like that sounds dodgy it's always like it's always like a drag to to be together but we do have a real good time together yeah we have it i think i don't have the the best time unless peter with me like like that's lovely yeah we um we're very lucky like we a lot of our friends like got split up in lockdown because you know those roles come in where you're off to work or you're out with the kids and you only see each other to delegate or go to sleep.

57:14And that intense time together of 24 hours a day for weeks, they were just like, I fucking hate your guts.

57:24And for us, that was like the best time. I know, you know, people had it so hard in lockdown, but for us to stop because our lives are so busy with work, kids, for us to have that luxury of being together all the time, with the kids we we loved it and we thrived um yeah yeah so what i mean with regards to what you do obviously you know you're you're helping uh couples to kind of navigate splitting up what can they do i mean do they can they come to you it's amicable is that what it's called it's like what have you got a website do you know so we've we've gone from being in the high court to now drafting more consent orders than any law firm in the country so this is not a niche thing being amicable is the kind of the way we're going as a society and this and that's got to be a good thing so more people are more prepared to try and do things in a way that prioritizes the kids that keeps things calm we have a business so we have a website we've got um loads of amazing people who've been legally trained but have given up that legal life to come and work in a different way and a kinder way and what we teach and what we practice is this idea that ultimately whether you're getting together or splitting up it's an emotional journey and it has legal and financial consequences so the lens we look through is that human lens yeah and that's the most important thing i never forget when i'm talking to somebody i might have had the same conversation thousands of times it's the first time these people are telling a complete stranger their most private and intimate thoughts and you've got to be able to stand with somebody where they are and not talk about you know the law or what you're entitled to and all that but just hear the human story be a human yeah and you know there's a lot of talk about ai and everything else in the world now And yes, we use lots of AI behind the scenes to make things smooth and to make the journey easier or simpler for people.

59:31But ultimately, as human beings, we want to we want to tell our story to another human being. We want someone to hear us and to bear witness. And that's so important. And that's just what you don't get when you're going through the traditional route and you're being billed by the six minute interval. And you've got someone explaining the sort of ins and outs of what the law says. So I think what we create is a human experience to what is one of life's big events, isn't it? Getting together with somebody or splitting up from somebody. Yeah. They're massive life events. The whole world does it, don't they?

1:00:06Yeah, of course. And we do it several times in our lives as well. We're living so much longer. The chances of having one relationship now are quite slim. So you might live with somebody before you marry somebody else. You know, somebody might die and you might then go on and marry again or live with somebody again. And if you're going to live 90 years, you're going to have at some point more than one partner potentially. And so I think getting better at being able to move between partners is something we have to think about as a society. Well, listen, congratulations on kind of realising, I suppose, that the system is flawed.

1:00:42You know, having the balls, just excuse the expression, to do something about it. and then in turn to take on the establishment as you put it is extremely brave and then to continue to help couples is an amazing thing to do so congratulations thank you and your book I've just written a book Amicable Divorce not just about our company but about the general principles of how to stay amicable when you're going through something as life changing as the divorce of the divorce should you be slightly concerned if you saw that line next to the bed with your partner well i purposely didn't bring you a copy because i thought that would be a bit much i actually need a copy of this for someone

1:01:34absolutely and then the other thing i have my own podcast where we have people on to talk about the experience of going through divorce because i think one of the things we don't do is talk about it very much so we ran a campaign on tubes and buses and stuff in London where we sort of said let's talk about the d word because we want to destigmatize it because it's a fact of life and I'm not saying we should all be aspiring to a divorce far from it but it happens so we have to be able to talk about it yeah and I think one of you said earlier on didn't you about you know sometimes it can be okay between the couple and then lots of people start jumping in so a big part of what we're trying to do is educate friends and family about how to have those conversations and how to be around somebody if they're getting divorced because again it's so important yeah it is important and so when people come on the podcast and talk about either their own experiences or the kind of ins and outs of what you have to do so we have like technically ones and then we have ones where people are just sharing their stories it's so important yeah to hear someone else's story and I heard Gary Lineker talking to Davina McCall the other week about exactly that his divorces and what he'd been through so when people like that come out and talk about it it enables everybody else to think it's okay to talk about it as well i suppose as well especially when you're going through a divorce as well like that you you there's i suppose a time where you feel so lonely like you because you that person that you rely on or have relied on maybe for 20 odd years is not there anymore and you feel like you've got no one right so So I see you say here, like in the blame game, you just throw insults at each other and stuff like that, but there is another way to work it out and that is the future.

1:03:17Yeah, and you made the point earlier about male suicide, a massive issue when people divorce and separate because women tend to have networks where they're used to talking about feelings and emotions, men less so still. It is changing, but still as a generalisation, men have fewer of those connections where they will open up and talk and that's such an amazing channel to just kind of allow people not to feel so isolated allow people to feel that they're not in it on their own but there are people around who love them care about them and want them to succeed in whatever you know life comes next kind of thing so I think trying to have those conversations and men talking about this kind of stuff yeah is incredibly important so on that note if you could ask Gary Lineker to come on my podcast, I'd be very grateful.

1:04:07We'll ask him. We will. Pete might be on it soon. The way he's carrying on. You can come on when you've done your post-snub, can't you? Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. Post-nubs, yeah. And how it felt as to people who love each other very much to have that conversation. Yeah, it's true. I think that's such a sensible thing to do. Can we come to you for it? You have absolutely come to me. Yeah, absolutely. Well, there you go. Well, thanks so much, Kate, for coming on. It was so insightful. Amazing, Kate, yeah. And I was probably too interested in that, to be honest. Yeah, I hope the listeners were as interested as we were because genuinely, like, it's really eye-opening and really interesting to chat to you about it, yeah.

1:04:46Yeah. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for coming on. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. one night of Halloween becomes a whole season at home. From larger-than-life yard decor and moody lighting to festive accents for every room in the house, Wayfair has what you need to make Halloween feel like magic all in one place. Because the best Halloween memories aren't made in just one night. They're made all season long. Shop Halloween decor now at Wayfair.com. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Hey, it's Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad, and this episode is supported by Rothy's, the brand famous for chic, comfortable flats.

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