A seismic week for England, Ireland wave goodbye to a legend, and Spurs sack Vilahamn

0:00Chloe: Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

0:37Chloe: You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. and you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

1:24Rachel: Welcome to Upfront. I'm Chloe Morgan. And I'm Rachel O'Sullivan. A hell of a lot has happened since we spoke last week, not including my terrible, terrible cold. Serena Vigman announced her squad for the Euros, but only after some more huge shock announcements from some of her most senior players. We obviously discussed Earps. Now Fran Kirby has announced her retirement from international football. And then Millie Bright ruled herself out of the tournament. We're here to react to all of that, what we learned from England's defeat to Spain, plenty of other international news like Louise Quinn's retirement.

1:56Rachel: And there's a small matter of another manager sacking in the WSL.

2:06Rachel: Rachel, it's been quite the spicy week. Bloody hell. I know. We're going to try and do our best to condense this to just three hours and 50 minutes. Before we get into today's show, Stack is currently running a survey for all of its listeners. And we'd love for you to help us out by answering a few questions. If you submit a few answers about your stack listening habits, you'll be entered into a competition with a chance to win a brand new PlayStation 5 at the end of every month for the next five months. Rach, you can't enter. I was going to ask. No, maybe you just listen to up front. Maybe you're partial to a bit of the football ramble too.

2:39Rachel: Or you listen to a load of shows across the stack network. Whatever you like, we'd love to hear from you. You'll only need to enter the survey once and your name will stay in the prize draw for all PS5s, all five of them. Wow. You can't win all of them, Rach. Can I change my name? No. What if I said like Chloe O'Sullivan? Rachel Morgan? No. This survey is a great way for us to find out more about our listeners and to help that continue to bring you more of the podcasting you love. So they massively help us out. Just hit the link in the episode description to fill out the survey and get entered into the prize draw now.

3:10Rachel: Thank you so much. Rach, it's a beefy one. It's been a big week for England. It's not necessarily the news that we wanted to hear. This turbulence, this unsettled... Not smooth sailing. Yeah, not smooth sailing as we enter the final few weeks leading up to the Euros. Before we get stuck in, let's quickly remind everyone what's happened because so much has gone on in the past 14 days. So two weeks ago, the news broke that Mary Epps had announced her immediate retirement from international football. We obviously discussed that on the show, of course. England thrashed Portugal 6-0 and then got a bit of a lesson from Spain last Tuesday, ending their Nations League campaign.

3:45Rachel: But just after full time, Fran Kirby announced her England retirement. She had apparently learned that she wouldn't be in the Euros squad and so had brought forward her decision to retire. Hold our beer. The big shock came the next day. Millie Bright announced that she wouldn't be able to take part in the Euros, explaining that she would be unable to give 100 % mentally or physically. The day after, Serena Vigman announced her 23-strong squad for the Euros.

4:10Chloe: And then I just turned off all social media and hoped that if I couldn't see it, then none of it would be true and no more would come out.

4:15Rachel: Yeah, it's like if a bear shits in the woods and no one sees it, did it happen? Is that the phrase?

4:20Chloe: No, I think it's if the tree falls in the wood, does it make a sound? But the bear shooting thing is also apt.

4:24Rachel: Completely relevant. Okay, it's really hard to know where to start unpicking all of this, but I think we should start with Fran Kirby. Yes, because we did marry, yeah. We've done Fran Kirby. Let's do it chronologically. We both felt that her decision made sense, but the timings just before the squad announcement felt maybe a little bit off. Do we think that Serena's decision to drop her from the squad was the right call? I mean, especially after losing Erbs, such an experienced voice in the dressing room, such a big, confident player, you know, has been to major international tournaments like Kirby has.

4:54Rachel: And surely she kind of maybe had an inkling that Bright was also going to be making the same call as well. Just to flag, without those three, England have lost 217 caps between them. I mean, Rach, what did you make of the decision when it dropped with the kerbs?

5:10Chloe: I think, as you said there, probably not hugely surprised that she's chosen to retire. Maybe a little bit surprised at the timing. I thought maybe she'd wait until after the Euros. A difficult one in terms of not bringing her. It was always going to be maybe on the edge in terms of bringing her for that experience and that game changing ability, but also knowing. and I know England's midfield is an area that everyone's got concern about but in that position there are a lot of players who can play in that position. You're bringing the likes of I'd say a lot of it probably hinged on LJ's fitness you know because she can't play in that number 10 role and it's very effective there.

5:48So I think Serena bringing LJ

5:51Chloe: I think giving confidence that she believes she's going to be ready for the Euros is probably what made that decision and then who do you drop and it's a difficult one when you're saying that about a Fran Kirby who is a generational talent. And I remember her making her mark in the 2015 World Cup over in Canada. And she was kind of labeled the mini Messi. And, you know, she made such an impact at such a young age and had such an incredible career, you know, coming all the way through Reading and to Chelsea. And, you know, it's hard to kind of say you're picking other players over her, you're dropping her, but there's so much talent coming through in that position.

6:26Chloe: So a difficult decision. And I think perhaps in isolation may not have felt like such a big thing, but to add the Bright and the Earps to bookend that decision, that's where it makes it feel even bigger.

6:41Rachel: It was a little bit, it does feel like a kind of a small implosion of the Lionesses squad. And I think we'll definitely unpack how much of a catastrophe, because it obviously is being sort of catastrophized across, you know, chaos within the England camp. Lionesses are all gone. No one's left. We don't have a squad. And it was a little bit unsettling because I think it just happened in such a compact way. But I think, yeah, you're completely right. It's never going to be an easy decision. I mean, Fran's been with England since she was 21, scored 19 goals, 77 caps for the Lionesses and obviously been a massive key figure with them for over a decade.

7:14Chloe: What I will say is nice is that she got to have a last camp. Yep. And she got to do it in her own way and say goodbye in her own way and get the plaudits and the thanks and everything that goes with that. That was nice to see. And I think perhaps, you know, for example, Earps' decision seemed to surprise everybody. And that then ended up not really following on as such because it was almost like there was no preparedness for it. So it felt like Fran got to have her final camp and have her goodbye a little bit and do it in her own way a little bit. I mean, I know not being selected is not a decision that she's made, but it was nice how that was able to happen because then Vigman was able to be asked about it and she was able to give her thoughts on her career and everything else.

7:57Chloe: So that was quite nice.

7:57Rachel: Yeah, I mean, it was lovely. there was a really lovely couple of comments that came out of the BBC interview, her first interview since announcing her retirement. Kirby said, it is something I've been thinking about for over a year. I knew this was going to be my last major tournament. My plan was to retire after the Euros, but after speaking to Serena, I'm not going to make the squad. It was a dagger to the heart, but also a weight off of her shoulders. And then like you said there, Rach with Wigman then saying, she loved working with Kirby, called her an amazing player, an incredible person too.

8:25Rachel: She did everything to make the squad. Always been ready to play and perform and help others. But yeah, it was obviously a difficult decision to make. So yeah, I think she controlled the narrative around it and it was the right time. And I think she's bowed out gracefully with her head held high, an incredible decade

8:39Chloe: with the England squad. And what an inspirational player and person she has been across that time as well. And I think she's probably impacted a lot more people's lives than she perhaps realises.

8:48Rachel: 100%. She's been a massive advocate across the game as well for mental health and things. And had an incredible, really good season with Brighton as well. I think she's been a massive part of how well they did last season. And we'll hopefully see her next season. Yeah, 100%. This isn't the last of Frank Kirby. This is just less of Frank Kirby on the international stage. Right. Moving swiftly on to the next big event. Millie Bright explained on social media that stepping back was the right thing to do for her health, her future in the game and most importantly, the team. And it wasn't right for her to take the place of another player who was ready to give everything.

9:18Rachel: It's been a really big season for Bright. 36 games in all competitions, but also some upheaval for her off the pitch, having just split up with her fiancé. Loads and loads of supportive messages from other members of the England squad. And Wigman has said, you know, the priority is to take care of herself, which is amazing. But Rach, how did you feel when that news broke? Because that also felt like a bolt out of the blue and a third strike, I suppose, for the England squad.

9:43Chloe: It was. Bad news comes in threes, doesn't it? I actually think this is probably the biggest concern in terms of players missing from the Euros squad, because Millie Bright is a starter, is super key to that starting XI more often than not. a very integral voice in the team and leader as well. I mean, so are Fran and Mary, but you're pretty set that she's going to be starting generally most games for England. So that was a big surprise. I mean, it's good that she's not retired entirely, but she's stepped back for her own physical and mental health, which I think is key. Played a huge amount of football this season.

10:19Chloe: We've talked a lot about loading and what it takes out of you. And I think when you're dealing with stuff off the pitch as well, for some people the football can be an escape for others it's another thing another weight that you have to carry so a bit of pressure yeah so i can understand um how that can cause very difficult situations for people and to be able to feel that you can prioritize your physical and mental well-being at such a crucial time i'd like to think shows the environment that england have created now you know mary erps has discussed she had difficulties with the mental health as well over the last kind of year or so.

10:56Chloe: And it's been a really difficult decision. And that felt like it went in a slightly different way. But I do think being comfortable to be able to step up and say, I need a break and I need to step away, even when it's an important time and feel supported, is important. 100%.

11:11Rachel: And I think, I mean, also around that, I think a couple of days after the announcement was taken to withdraw from the Euros squad, a couple of photos sort of cropping up of her in bandages. It looks like she's had some kind of surgery to her knee as well as in recovery at the moment. I think it was a little bit unusual not to see, I think, more around that in the initial post. I think, you know, I was expecting, you know, there to be some mention of kind of needing to kind of undergo this surgery prior to the announcement being made. But at the same time, like you said, I think it's sort of maybe a credit to the environment that Serena's created that she can take that time off to do that.

11:45Rachel: I know we kind of have to flag, and without sort of being any extension of the horrible tabloid media, there's also been sort of other things that have alluded to things that are going off the pitch. So, yeah, I mean, for more or less, we're just hoping that Millie's OK. Football will always be here.

12:00Chloe: 100%. The main thing is look after yourself. Definitely. I have seen a few nasty responses to some of the tweets we put up about it. You know, I'm not going to say what they were, but kind of implying that, you know, that you don't care or like you're not even trying and if you're not even going to bother trying, you don't deserve. Like, absolute bullshit. Football is a fucking game at the end of the day. Like, to take that kind of take from it, I think is pretty pathetic personally. And, you know, players, both men's and women's players in sport, particularly football, have been talking endlessly about loading, how difficult it is, the amount of stuff they have to carry.

12:33Chloe: Just because male footballers make money doesn't mean it's easy, the job is easy, the loading is easy. You know, so this idea that like you put a game before your physical and mental well-being at the end of the day is a bit silly.

12:45Rachel: How could anyone say that someone who's just capped in their sides to a treble winning season. And to a World Cup final. And to a World Cup final. Could say that she doesn't care or she's not trying hard enough. I think that seems a little bit sus. Check yourself before you say shit like that. Literally that. What are England going to miss without Bright? Because I think it feels like, like you said there, Rach, you kind of alluded to how much of a gap that's going to leave in the squad. I mean, talking about the World Cup in 2023 and how kind of pivotal she was in kind of taking over that captaincy from Lear at a very late stage.

13:18Rachel: managing all the things to do with the bonus situation and navigating what Earps was doing with the goalkeeper stuff and trying to lead the squad through what was a very tumultuous World Cup. There was a lot going on. You were across the other side of the planet for weeks and weeks at a time and to get them to the final as well, it's not just the capabilities that she has on the pitch but she's a very calm head. I mean, that's going to be a massive loss for the squad.

13:42Chloe: Yeah, I think equal parts on the pitch and off the pitch. as I said often a starting player in that defence I do think obviously there are players who can step in but you know the players who are stepping in were the quality depth that England had off the bench so now you're kind of lacking that kind of leadership that experience at major tournaments on the pitch off the pitch as you said very much part of that leadership senior leadership group if you like so that's an important voice gone and not providing that kind of stability and calm head as you touched on. So, yeah, you know, obviously all players bring a lot off the pitch, but when you're losing a leader like that,

14:21Rachel: it is a big gap. 100%. And I think now we have to definitely talk about the squad itself. I mean, three big bits of news coming in a very short space of time. I know there's been sort of a lot of discussion about sort of a collapse within the squad and how detrimental it's going to be to the Euro success and, you know, how massive that's going to be and kind of impacting our chances at winning the Euros. I mean, you obviously take, you always take a really level-headed level-headed and kind of very centered approach to things like this, right? So like what, you're the cool, calm head that we need in times of crisis.

14:51Chloe: Go on. I do think they're all three different stories. And I think conflating them isn't a great idea. And they've all happened for clearly different reasons. And trying to draw a narrative from that without all of the information, which nobody has, except perhaps people in the squad, even if you have a source here and there, you're not getting the entire picture. So I just think conflating them, trying to create a narrative for clicks and headlines, you know, trying to imply that there's a crisis or pressure by by creating that narrative, you are adding to that crisis and pressure. And actually, I think it's just safer to not draw conclusions or conspiracies because that doesn't help anybody.

15:29Rachel: There's also like a I don't know, like when teams go through certain amounts of adversity, there is a strength that I think emerges in some of the other players that are being called up. I mean, we've got to talk about, you know, the presence of Michelle Adjimang being one of those making her first major international tournament. Obviously, completely impressed Serena, not only by coming on in her debut, but also scoring in that same game this year. I mean, what do we think of her being called out? A little bit upset not to see Jess Naz there as well, maybe.

15:57Chloe: But Michelle has been absolutely unbelievable. Yeah, incredible. I was really intrigued to see whether she would be purely because the under-19s Euros is happening this summer as well. And she's obviously very, very key to that. I don't think you can do both. I think I was surprised because when we were talking about this first, this was pre-Bright and pre-Kirby. So we weren't thinking about filling those gaps. And I think when we saw Kirby not in the squad, I guess people maybe thought the 23rd player that many of us were unsure of would be a midfielder to fill that gap. But you have the versatility of a Lauren James.

16:33Chloe: There's a lot of versatility in the England squad that is perhaps not talked about enough. And I appreciate the players are generally very good in one position, but there are quite a few through the squad that can play in multiple positions. And yes, Aggie Beaver-Jones was looking like the number nine off the bench that England needed, but she can also play on the wing very effectively too. So Michelle Adjumang, this adds a third profile of striker that could really throw the cat amongst the pigeons. I think if you're in a game, you need a goal, you need to kind of, you've tired out of defence, you know, you want to maybe change how you're approaching the goal a little bit in the final 10, 15 minutes.

17:09Chloe: Michelle Adjumain could provide something different. So, you know, and if you suddenly need someone to step in because a winger's injured, you've got Agui Beaver-Jones, you then still need that option off the bench for the number nine. So a bit of a surprise, but not because I don't think she couldn't do it. I just think we probably thought the replacement would come in the form of midfield.

17:27Rachel: No, definitely. And I think when you look at the versatility of someone like Michelle Adjaman, I mean, and also how well she's dealt with the pressure of coming into the squad for the very first time this year and doing so well and doing so well at Brighton as well. I think it's a very well-deserved call up. So I'm excited to see if she actually does get any cheeky minutes.

17:43Chloe: But it's amazing because think about it, at 19, having your first major tournament experience under your belt, there's an under 20s World Cup coming up. Then you have, you know, you're really setting yourself up for the 2027 World Cup and still a very young player who would potentially be going with a huge amount of experience. And so it makes it very exciting.

18:03Rachel: Well, Michelle is one of seven forwards going into the Euro squad. What do we think of all these options up front? because like you said, Rach, there's a lot of versatility there, but there's also a lot of really amazing partnerships that have already been formed at club level. So you've got Chloe Kelly, Beth Mead, Alessia Russo. That feels very, very spicy there. I mean, what would you be most likely to see? What combination of that would you be most likely to think? Yeah, I think that should be a start.

18:27Chloe: I think you're probably going to see a Lauren Hemp, Russo and perhaps Kelly start with Aggie Beaver-Jones being that impact player off the bench with Beth Mead coming on and making a difference as well. on the wing. You've got a player like LJ who can play on the left, who can play centrally.

18:44Rachel: But still some concern there over knee niggles. It kind of feels like a little bit of a risk. It was not a risk enough that Serena's obviously assessed it and decided that she's fit enough to be a part of the squad. But only just really coming back from injury and sort of completing her rehab at the very late stages. It feels still a little bit sus.

18:59Chloe: Sure, but I think over the years there have been players at major tournaments that you've taken a gamble on because they're that good and because they're game changers. And if you're still in it in, you know, the third group game, the quarterfinals, the semifinals, and you need a game changer. You have them within the squad. Kelly Smith was one of those. You would bring Kelly Smith with one leg. You know, there are players of that calibre that even if they're not absolutely 100 % could be the difference maker. You know, I know Sam Kerr got injured at the beginning of the tournament and, you know, the option was, I mean, if she got injured at the beginning of the tournament, I can't remember if you're allowed to maybe potentially replace her, but, you know, she still came on in the semifinals.

19:37Chloe: She still scored a goal against England. She still had it in her to have the impact. And I do think LJ is the kind of player who can make an impact. And she's a weapon and a threat in the bench. So even if a team is coming up against you and knows, OK, she might not be starting, but she is on the bench. She could come on. She could change a game. So LJ is the player I would have taken a gamble on.

19:56Rachel: I think that's very fair. That's very fair. All right, if we take a step back then, let's have a look at the midfielders because obviously only five were chosen. We've got Toon, Stanway, Walsh, Clinton and Park. Obviously, incredibly strong options. But it does only feel like Stan Ware and Walsh can kind of play in those deeper roles and kind of were lacking a little bit of versatility. We'll get on to a couple of questions about the midfield being up for the challenge in a second. But yeah, Rach, was there anyone you felt should have been there?

20:23Chloe: This is the difficulty because this is the problem area for England. But I don't feel like anyone's kind of saying, well, why haven't you taken X? You know, because it's that deeper midfield role. But we've talked about a lot. I still remember Keira Walsh going down in the World Cup going, my knee, my knee, I've done my knee. And then all of us like... The PTSD from it. Arse fell out, bottom fell out of her arse. We were just like, oh my God. And then she got up the next kind of couple of days later going, it was grand, I made a big deal out of it.

20:50Rachel: You know those moments you always know where you are when something happens. Like it takes me back to be in the press box.

20:55Chloe: Yeah, I remember that. And everyone was kind of saying, what if that happens? What if people figure out how to play England? to block. We've seen it where you kind of mark Walsh out of the game, kind of the impact she wants. So having Stan way back is key. You know, we've seen Leah Williamson involved in a double pivot before.

21:13Rachel: But you kind of don't want her to be pressing up into midfield. I mean, she's so central to kind of the defence and like the leadership that she has and kind of like the plays that she's able to create from the back line. So, I mean, that doesn't feel like a proper...

21:24Chloe: No, but my point is, it's not like there was loads of options left at home on the bench. This is the problem. I think, you know, had Ruby Mace remained fit and gotten more time within the squad, she could have been a potential option. You know, maybe a Maisie Simons. I don't know. It's a difficult one when you've got players potentially on the cusp. But yeah, like that would be the concern, I guess, would be in that particular position.

21:50Rachel: Well, hold the phone because we've got in a massive question from Naomi Germer. Gerner. Germer. It's actually Naomi Gerner on Blue Sky. She said, is the English midfield going to be up to the challenge of the Euros? Wolves seemed largely missing in action in the Barcelona and Spain matches. Yeah, I mean, you kind of alluded to it there, right? It's kind of how it would be easy for a team like Spain to kind of look at that midfield as a weakness and kind of look at ways to pick it apart. I mean, it's happened before. Spain have literally just gone at England and defeated them in that way. So, yeah, do we think that actually that's where teams are going to be focusing on?

22:28Chloe: I think perhaps playing against Spain yes it could be a problem for England I mean Spain have one of the best midfields in the world I wouldn't maybe use them as the benchmark because you're not going to have that kind of midfield in every team that England are playing that's one thing I would say but I mean yes if there's a concerning area for England it would be that I think I mean we're going to get into the Spain game a bit more but I think there was a bit more context around the Spain game than just simply England were overrun But yeah, I still think that's an area. And maybe I'm assuming it's something they're working on, how to work if Walsh is marked out of the game.

23:05Chloe: But I do think England have a huge amount of talent in the squad that we're perhaps overlooking. Kira Walsh is obviously very key, but not the only kind of key playmaker.

23:16Rachel: OK, so we barely touched on the Spain game, but is there anything we saw that has made us a little bit worried about England's chances this summer? Obviously, they've just come off the back of a 2-1 defeat. England struggled to cope with Spain.

23:27Chloe: I think England struggled to cope with Spain in the second half. There was context around that. Players had to come off. Players' minutes were being managed. Clinton wasn't available due to yellow card accumulation. Toon's minutes were being managed. Stanwy's minutes were being managed. You know, Missy Bo Kearns was going in for her first experience against the best midfield in the world. So to kind of gloss over that as if it was England just fell apart is a bit of a lazy way to look at it. I think England are always going to be out of possession against Spain. Like, I don't know why this surprises people every time.

24:01Chloe: And sometimes the commentary allows for that narrative to just foster and think, oh my God, England can't get a foot on the ball, et cetera, et cetera. And it's like, no, but you know that England aren't going to have possession. It's how disciplined they are in that possession. The second half, they weren't as good in the first half and allowed Spain to overrun them. And I do think part of that was down to the fact that they were trying to manage player minutes and they didn't have all the players they necessarily wanted. And I guess Wiegmann was trying to use that a little bit to give some players minutes as well.

24:28Chloe: So that is also important. I think England always do better in tournament too. So look, Spain are always going to be the biggest threat and they're going to be the marker of where England want to be. But I wouldn't necessarily use that result to just completely decide how England is going to do in a tournament. Basically, don't panic. Yeah, I always say that.

24:49Rachel: No, you're the voice of reason.

25:03Chloe: Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

25:40Chloe: You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com. That's growtherapy.com. slash start now. Growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

26:29Rachel: Okay, other international action. Rach, you were in Ireland last week to watch the girls in green beat Slovenia 1-0 in their final Nations League game. Slovenia finished top of the group, sadly, because of that 4-0 win over Ireland back in February. But what did you kind of make of that performance, Rach?

26:47Chloe: Well, it was my first time in Parky Keeve, which is a very lovely ground in Cork. So that was a really nice experience. I was actually equal parts pleased and equal parts frustrated. Pleased because it was probably Ireland's best performance under Ward. Frustrated because they actually could have and should have won the game by four. They were creating enough. they were dominating possession enough they were in Slovenia's half enough don't get me wrong I got nervous every time Slovenia went the other direction because Ireland's back line has been a bit wobbly under Carla but they held their own didn't allow them to score any goals and I just thought it was frustrating that we didn't score more because we really should have and I think perhaps missing that key and look Kira Caruso is normally that key player that dogger player in the box but it was games like that where you realised how much we were missing the likes of Julianne Russell.

27:40Chloe: You know, some youngsters playing, I thought Murphy did well, but a lot of just sending crosses into the box. It reminded me a bit of Arsenal. It was just like rinse and repeat, cross into the box, nobody's there. Hold the run for a second. Nope, I'm going to cross the ball. Oh, it's been blocked. It's been saved. And it was bodies on the line for Slovenia at times. And the longer the game went on, the less likely it felt like Arnond were going to score, despite kind of knocking on the door.

28:01Rachel: Well, there was a couple of very significant things in this game, because it was also Louise Quinn's final game in an island shirt. 122 caps I mean Rach, give us your reflections on an incredible international career

28:14Chloe: Lou, one of my faves hold on sorry I'm not getting upset I just have a rock in my throat

28:20Rachel: it's alright lad if you need some time

28:21Chloe: to get those tears out it's fine Lou, one of my faves yeah, she's been brilliant she's been stalwart that Irish defence a leader on and off the pitch can be relied upon to be thrown up front a bit, you know Millie Bright-esque at the end of a game and threatened in the box with crosses and corners, etc. And, you know, that was definitely a tactic that Carla tried at the end of the game to bring on Megan Campbell and Luquin. And it was very much get the ball on the end of Luquin's head. Yeah, she's been brilliant, a real servant to Ireland and gave her everything every time she played. So she's been missed, I think, a lot over the last six, eight months or so.

29:01Chloe: She's been dealing with injury at Birmingham and she had injury at Birmingham last season as well. So she has been a big loss. And I think when you add that to the fact that they've lost Diane Caldwell, Niamh Fahey, Julianne Russell, key players in defence, but also key leaders in the pitch. So kind of having her out of it as well has been difficult for Ireland and something that they've really had to adapt to and perhaps aren't doing as quickly or as well as maybe we would have liked. But then you have to factor in they've got a new manager. They've just missed out on qualifying for the Euros.

29:32Chloe: There's a lot of things that this squad have to deal with. And I think, yeah, it's just taking a little while, which I can understand. But I mean, I guess I have to ask you as a player, like when a leader leaves from a squad, never mind like three, but like a leader leaves from a squad. I guess there has to be a conscious effort to try and fill that gap, right?

29:53Rachel: Yeah, I think, I mean, you're always kind of braced for someone big leaving because that is the nature of women's football. Like, you know, the contracts are so short, but at the same time, there is always a number of leaders within the squad. So it doesn't feel like one leader is left and then everyone's just wandering around going, what do we do now? Like headless chickens. There's always kind of people that will naturally step up into that leadership role and take responsibility. So, yeah, it can be a little bit unsettling, especially when you've had someone there for years and years and years.

30:18Rachel: But you also appreciate, I think, with football that you need that refresh. You need that kind of regeneration, that new blood, that new energy, that new leadership like you have with new managers that come in. There's a different way of doing things. There's a different style. But, you know, as long as you're heading in a positive direction, it's generally seen as quite a positive thing. And you can just reflect back on the career, what they've achieved, you know, the experience in that time that you had with them. So I think more than anything else, it's a positive. I think when someone like that leaves their career in a way they wanted to after, you know, having such an impact on the game.

30:48Chloe: And I wouldn't be surprised. And I think Carla Ward has alluded to it a little bit. It's keeping some of those heads in and around the squad and a variety of different ways to keep hold of that leadership and that experience as well. to help that transition. But I mean, it's interesting. It's a bit like, you know, you look at England losing some of those key players and perhaps the impact, but maybe it's different for Ireland because it feels like the majority of those four, three of them are key defensive midfielders and sorry, key defensive players. And we are a squad who more often than not has to defend for our lives at times.

31:22Chloe: So they've been such a key part in that and also transitioning away from just parking the bus and actually starting to play a little bit of ball. And, you know, it feels like we're only, you know, training wheels a little bit in that kind of situation where we're trying to move away from that and be a bit more of a ball-possessing team. So to then lose those really strong players in the back, it suddenly makes it feel a little bit shaky. Whereas if you contrast it to England, I do feel like there's maybe a bit more stability across the squad with some of those players out because I guess they weren't all necessarily going to be starters.

31:54Rachel: Yeah, 100%. I think, I mean, you alluded there to sort of England And, you know, there was that period of transition, I suppose, where they lost some massive, massive names. Your Jill Scotch, your Ellen White, your Steph Hortons. And I think that's what the squad needed to kind of regenerate under the new leadership of Serena. So it kind of feels like that is just sometimes there's just time. And it's kind of almost like a break from like a previous year of women's football, taking it into direction where the pathways have been in place since age six. And you're kind of the training facilities are there and they're getting access to academy football and through the RTCs and things and sort of stepping up through the pathway.

32:24Rachel: So I think that's naturally going to happen. But getting back to Ireland, they now face Belgium in a promotion relegation playoff later this year. Belgium finished third in England's group, of course. I mean, that's a pretty decent matchup, Rach.

32:40Chloe: Yeah, I think it was like Austria, Iceland, Denmark or Belgium. None of them are great. Belgium, difficult. Belgium, inconsistent as well, which makes them harder to prepare for. You can see how tough they are to play against when the likes of Tessa Bull are available and how they can be got at when she isn't. So, you know, it'll be a tough game. I would have liked Ireland to maybe have a few more games under their belt under Carla Ward before they face that. But it's not all doom and gloom as much as it's been made out to be by some of the Irish media. I mean, I spoke to a number of fans who seemed to think we weren't making the World Cup now because they hadn't gotten into League A.

33:13Chloe: I was like, that's not the situation at all. There is still very much a chance of getting into the World Cup next year, But it just seemed to really be painted as a do or die. And it was a bit over the top because there's definitely still a route to Brazil.

33:29Rachel: Well, Northern Ireland also finished second in their group and will face Iceland in a playoff. We touched on this previously, but it is worth a reminder. And please get your Rain Man hats on because this is where it's going to get techie. If Ireland beat Belgium or if Northern Ireland beat Iceland, they'll be in League A for qualification for the 2027 World Cup. It will be structured just like the Nations League with groups of four. The advantage of being in League A is that the winners of each group qualify directly for Brazil, while the teams finishing second and third will play the six winners and two best ranked runners-up in League C.

34:04Rachel: In a World Cup qualification playoff, the four fourth-placed League A teams and four League B group winners will be drawn into eight ties against the teams that finish second and third in the League B groups. Did you get that?

34:18Chloe: Basically, there's a safety net in League A. So even if you come last, you've still got the option of a playoff. You're still safe. There's still hope. That's the beauty of League A. Even League B finishing, there's still a bit of a safety net. Finishing first, second or third, there's still a route to the World Cup. So there's a lot of safety nets, essentially.

34:35Rachel: You're not out until you're literally out. Ireland will face the US in two friendlies later in June before that big playoff against Belgium in October.

34:43Chloe: Interestingly, there has been discussions around giving players breaks. Carla Ward has been quite concerned about a number of players who've played so many minutes. I think Katie McCabe, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Katie McCabe has played the most amount of minutes for club and country than any other player in Europe, like over 4 ,000 minutes or something like that. But I would be surprised if she went to the US, if I'm totally honest. I'd be surprised if a lot of the senior players went to the US, which is difficult for Carla because she wants to play the big games.

35:12Chloe: She wants to challenge this team against big teams so that they can see the gap, they can see where they need to work on, but that's difficult to do if you're not playing your best team. But equally, she recognises the need for rest for players. I love that from Carla. Always looking out for player welfare and mental health.

35:35Rachel: How many times have we discussed managers in the WSL being sacked? Robert Villaham is the last person that we've heard of thus far, but that could change. I mean, between recording this and the podcast coming out, that is a couple of hours. So anything could change in that moment with the WSL manager merry-go-round. Spurs announced on Sunday they had sacked head coach Robert Villam after two years in charge. Spurs had handed him a three-year contract extension last July after they reached the FA Cup final and finished sixth in the WSL. That was just one point off of a club record point total. But this season has been a slightly different story.

36:14Rachel: Spurs finished second bottom with 11 fewer points and they conceded a lot of goals, 44 in total. Managing Director Andy Rogers said there have been some special moments during Robert's tenure, including reaching the FA Cup final for the first time. However, results and performances this season have not been to the level we would expect and now is the right time to make a change. Rach, what were your reactions to this? Because it kind of felt like things were heating up around Robert given how, I would say, fairly catastrophic Spurs' season has been this year.

36:45Chloe: Yeah, I mean, I'm always an advocate for giving managers more time, especially when they've had an exceptional season, an unexpectedly good season. They're always going to have to come down the next season. I thought it would have happened sooner if it was going to happen, if I'm being totally honest. I think when I saw that Martha Thomas had signed a new deal, it made me think that they may not be carrying on with Robert. You thought it was either Robert or Marta? Because part of me thinks they perhaps recognise that Robert didn't get the best out of her, rather than feeling like she wasn't what they needed, if that makes sense.

37:22Chloe: So that made me think, OK, maybe Robert isn't getting the best out of his players. And that's something that the club feel. If they're backing the player over the manager. I don't want to put it as a backing the player over the manager, but that's just kind of triggered in my head. I was like, interesting. I don't feel like that would have been a Robert decision, which then made me think perhaps he was going to go. So they feel like a player like Marta has an awful lot more to give and they need a manager who can get the best out of her. We had the whole Hayley Rasso thing as well. She just doesn't seem to be having a great time at Spurs.

37:53Chloe: And I did feel there was often a bit of indecisiveness over some of the decisions he made this season, which I spoke about around the England-Thomas decision, you know, not getting the right players in to fill the holes of Bizet and Clinton, all these kind of little small things all just led to a very, very shaky season and a lack of consistency. And I think what we loved so much last season was that we really felt like the players had bought into what Robert was trying to do. And it was almost like Robert wasn't sure what he was trying to do. So the players couldn't really buy into it. You know, the defence was super leaky.

38:30Chloe: There was just a lot of areas that were problems. And yeah, I'm, I guess, yeah, not hugely surprised. Again, I would have backed from a little bit more time, but I can understand getting rid of them.

38:40Rachel: I think Robert was kind of primed to go into the season off the back of last season. It's full of sort of like fresh hope and ambition. I mean, nine new signings in the summer. Obviously, you mentioned there Hayley Rasso, you had Spain internationals join in. Yeah, there was a little bit of kind of, not upset, but I think there was a lot of people who were kind of disappointed to see Grace Clinton go. Like could more have been done to kind of keep her. But at the same time, it was pretty clear that Grace kind of wanted to go back to Man United. then Celine Bizet obviously going as well. But it felt like there was still enough about Spurs that they shouldn't be finishing anywhere near the bottom.

39:11Rachel: To go from sixth to second from bottom is absolutely catastrophic. And I think you mentioned there sort of about how some of the players are maybe feeling around Robert's leadership. I mean, Hayley Rasso, there was kind of reports in April, sort of seeing her kind of turn up at games where Spurs were playing at the same time, but going to different games and kind of removing references from Spurs on her Instagram and things like that. but it wasn't really ever clear what was kind of going on and why that maybe division had sort of emerged between Rasso and the club.

39:38Chloe: Yeah, and I mean, with respect, I don't really think she kind of necessarily lit up the pitch when she did play for Spurs and part of that could be that she wasn't especially happy there. I will say, like I know finishing 11th is pretty catastrophic but there was five points between 6th and 11th and it was very congested in that lower half of the table and there were times where Spurs could have still finished sixth with two or three games to go or finish 11th. And I remember when they dropped to 11th, I think was the penultimate game of the season. And I was a real like, oh my God, when did that happen?

40:10Chloe: Suddenly Aston Villa were sixth and Spurs were, you know. And I think there's a little bit of context in that it was very tight. No one was consistent in that kind of lower half of the table. But at the end of the day, finishing 11th is not going to be considered acceptable for Spurs. I do think, you know, there was a lot that had to be done behind the scenes in terms of training facilities and all of that kind of stuff that was, yes, they've got access to the Spurs training ground, of course, but there were other areas off the pitch that needed addressing that Robert has spoken about working on.

40:39Chloe: So those things take time. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's generally where clubs are going to go if things aren't going well. And if there's maybe unhappiness potentially in the camp, you know, we didn't see very many messages from players, which I thought was quite telling. but it was definitely a manager purge week for Spurs.

40:59Rachel: I mean Rach you spoke to Robert before the start of last season and he stressed the emphasis on building processes, a philosophy placing trust in younger players and something that Spurs kind of seem to be on board with but do you think, would you have given him more time just because he had a dud season and it was a bad season?

41:17Chloe: You know I would have but I also think the club needs to back him financially to get in players to replace those big losses. I think it's very easy to be on board with building a philosophy and placing trust in young players when it's going well. And, you know, I guess it's how far does that trust go when things aren't going so well? And how much will you back a manager when things aren't going so well? So I do think you need to sometimes be able to ride the rough with the smooth and it's not always going to be perfect and you're not going to continue to improve season on season. But I think had they finished maybe ninth or, you know, maybe even 10th, maybe it wouldn't have been considered quite so disastrous.

41:52Chloe: but to look at the table and be second from bottom, it might have just been the killer blow.

41:57Rachel: Do you not think it was quite unusual timing though? I mean, it's come a month after the end of the domestic season. You'd have kind of thought that maybe that would have been made more, I don't know, closer to the end of the season. You know, they would have already decided that actually the season wasn't going to plan and already be put in place kind of tight, you know, efforts and resources trying to look for a new manager. But to do it, it almost kind of sounded like they weren't too sure if they wanted to make that call or were going to give him that extra time by kind of having that month gap.

42:22Rachel: and also I suppose you have to look at who is out there as a replacement

42:25Chloe: well I thought the timing was unusual maybe from an HR perspective getting rid of both of them in the same week was lighter on the paperwork I don't know the man hours who knows but also you know Euros time there's in five six weeks time there's going to be a number of managers looking for a job so they could already be eyeing some people up there could be some managers out there looking to do a major tournament and move into domestic football to get Laura Kaminsky back in Well, listen. She's been with Spurs. She's on the lookout for a job. Matt Beard. You know, the major tournaments are often shop windows, not just for players, but for management.

42:59Chloe: So an interesting time. Yeah. God, who would you bank? Who would you bank on? Is there any kind of favourites that you'd think? I don't know yet because it's so recent. It's kind of hard to know. I would like to see a Laura Kaminsky or a Matt Beard in the WSL again, but whether they'll go down that route, I do not know. They might go for someone completely left field.

43:19Rachel: The thing is they need to get someone in ASAP because this is where you're almost getting into pre-season vibes. And if you're going to try and instill something that's going to be ready and in place by the time September comes around, you're never going to have something perfect in three months. But if you don't get someone in ASAP, I think you're going to struggle.

43:35Chloe: And then you need to allow that manager some time. If you're getting them in late, how much say are they going to have in the players that have come in? So then you're going to have a manager for at least half a season who perhaps hasn't built a squad the way they want to be built. Are they going to be punished for that? Spurs, yeah. You know.

43:49Rachel: And it feels like Spurs will punish. Yeah, Spurs aren't ones to let you have more than your intended time, your allotted time there. So, yeah. But, okay, well, let's, I mean, we'll obviously talk about the transfers when they start heating up and that merry-go-round starts again. Thank you so much for listening. Rachel and I will be back next week as we continue our build-up to the Euros. In the meantime, you can find us on Instagram and x slash Twitter. I'm at morgy underscore 89. Rachel's at girls on the ball and we are at upfront underscore pod. You can also find us on YouTube at UpfrontPod.

44:20Rachel: Thank you so much, Rach. Salon! Salon!

44:36Rachel: Upfront is a Stack Production and part of the Acast Creator Network.