A thriller of a mid-table clash, Liverpool lose again and some football kit chat

0:28Welcome to Upfront, I'm Chloe Morgan. probably not me and finally we're joined by Kimberley Cumberbatch and Jack Fowler from Who Gives a Shirt to talk about all things football kits Rach the elephant in the room alright I'm away again I really do apologise I miss you mate we've not been in the studio for quite some time now with jet setters what can I say I'm in sunny Dubai getting another better tan than the one in Tenerife so yeah but back in the studio next week so yeah I'll give you a big hug there mate glowing obviously oh no we are the sun and vitamin d and things yeah but how are you how's rainy old cold england how's it how's it there it's not raining actually so all right that's a surprise nice yeah that's about all i've got to say about the weather gray uh i can see i can see a bit of blue sky oh amazing okay well that's you know the pin in your little balloon in it a little bit of sunshine and everything that's not what i wanted at all i still don't have fomo anyway let's get stuck into the moments the weekend what are you saying a big weekend at the WSL this one it was um I might pick a personal one where I was my first weekend doing uh floor manager this season come on yet this season um used to do it for the last three or four seasons but uh got to do my first one this season at Tottenham uh Liverpool and I forgot how much I enjoyed like I've actually really grown to enjoy watching the matches from the dugouts because I feel like it really gives you a little bit more like added insight and like you can hear the teams talking you can hear what they're saying to players you can hear the conversations with the refs all that kind of stuff so come on then give us some of the behind the scenes duty gospel like tell us what's been going on what are the players saying what are the refs saying like come on i gotta keep all that under my hat the one thing i will say is a little joke between uh martin and gareth just before kickoff where martin called gareth and gareth looked around he was like mate we're going three four three and obviously that was some like little inside joke that they both really enjoyed.

2:20Love that. That was about it. Do you find it stressful? I feel like it's just like such a lot to manage on the day and so much happened in that game. Like you just feel like you just here there and everywhere. Like how does it even work? So I'm basically the liaison between the studio and the commentators and what's going on on the floor. So it's my job to confirm like, well, I do the pre-match interviews first of all and then it's my job to confirm substitutes, who scored like yellow cards, like getting that immediately to the studio as soon as it happens so that they can get their graphics ready and everything so it can be a bit stressful when like the latter stages of the game when multiple things are happening like i've had people score when they're doing substitutes and the substitutes have changed from what they originally were meant to be while you're getting the information through to the studio so it is a lot like sometimes it also depends what the dugouts are and how many people are in front of you that can get um i had the the anti you know the doping people that come oh yeah check you after a game oh they also in front of me towards it's the end of the game and I was like lads I shouldn't say this but I used to absolutely I used to hate it when you see the anti-doping people because especially if you was away game there's been a couple of times I've been caught up in like Manchester United or Man City or whatever it was the doping people would come and then you wouldn't be able to go home from the longest weekend ever you know you're going to get on a coach it's going to be an eight-hour journey because the coach driver needs to stop every like 20 every 20 minutes you cannot go home until the players that have been chosen have gone for a wee and then because everyone and the whole process is like quite intimate so like the anti-doping people come into the changing room with you and have to see the urine leaving your body so like i don't know if anyone has ever experienced this but if you're being watched while you have a wee you naturally don't want a wee and then you have to drink loads of water to try and get yourself to wee but if you then oversaturate and drink too much water your wee becomes too diluted and then you've got to wait until you have to have a wee again the process can take about an hour and a half two hours and you could be stuck on an away game yeah just waiting to get back on the coach it was i never thought about the fact that they need to see that yes it's quite so there's literally in the cubicle with you yeah yeah 100 % like you've just got to go for a wee but they've got to it's these strangers yeah i don't know how else they're obviously they're women like they obviously like make a concerted effort to make you feel as comfortable as possible in this very weird situation but uh yeah i've had it a couple of times yeah and especially like when i was playing for spurs in the championship we had the the doping people come and then we were i don't know if you've ever been to where are we playing it was is it boring wood and the the changing rooms were like oh it was like your your granddad's shed a cupboard like honestly and it was just it was grim it was cold like your your your bare bum is out like you're trying to wee you know everyone wants to go home like it's yeah it was it was just grim absolutely grim oh that is stressful well anyway they also stand in front of you if you're a floor manager which is a lot less annoying than having to then watch you pee I don't know how we escalated into this conversation.

5:03Yeah, me neither. What was your moment of the weekend? All the visuals on that one. I'm really sorry for those harrowing, harrowing scenes. Oh, he's bare bummed. Moving on to my moment of the weekend. I've got to say Jess Park as my absolute ride or die hero. Opening the score and obviously that incredible left foot shot 60 minutes in. And then assisting the third goal for United in their 3-2 win against Bryan. I just feel like it's becoming repetitive now, Jess. You're too good. We have to keep talking about how great you are. Like, God's sake. It does feel a bit like we're like, when we're talking about it, we do have to mention Jess Park.

5:36I'm sorry, but... So she is, yeah, she's making quite the mark, Jess Park. I think it's that. I think that obviously she had an amazing season in Man City, but I think she's really coming to her own. You can see her enjoying her football and the link-up play that she has and the chance creation that she's got, the movement off the ball. Like, yeah, I can't rave about her enough. So yeah, moment of the weekend goes to her and a very, very important win for them against Brighton. So yeah. Probably won't be the last moment of the weekend you get either. I doubt it. I 100 % doubt that. Right. Let's get stuck into this absolute goal fest.

6:06Aston Villa 3-3 against Everton. Rach, what were you thinking? Because it just felt like one end, one end, one end, one end. You didn't know where to look. What was going on? Very chaotic. Obviously, Kelly Gargo scoring the first and the last goals of the game. Obviously, the Messi-Villa defending, maybe that's where we start, costing them that 94th minute equaliser. I mean, Rach, you've got your head in your hands, mate. What are you thinking? Go on. You say Messi, Villa, defending for the last goal. There was no defending. Kelly Gaga took the ball down, took a few little steps to readjust her body, waited a second, then had a swing at it.

6:42I was just like, where are the defenders? Why are they all just watching this? Oh, is she going to score in the final minute? God, that'd be annoying. Oh, she has. It felt a bit like that. When I first saw the goal, I was just like, what was that defending? Where was the defending? So yeah, I did definitely feel like people switched off a little bit from the first ball that came in that just allowed her so much time to take it down. I do, I think Everton are a different side with Kelly Gago in the team. I think this was only her second start this season because she has, I think after she didn't come back quite fit from the summer and she did have a knock as well.

7:18I think she picked up in the London City Lionesses game maybe. I can't remember. I think she might have, which had her out for a little while as well. And I just think that kind of target player, once she's taken out of the Everton squad, it just kind of changes what Everton are able to do. They're obviously missing Katja Snoyce as well, which is another key player for them. So they just looked a different squad. They looked incredibly threatening in the opening 20, 25 minutes. The link-up play, the one-twos, the fluid football they were playing through the midfield, out into the width. They had so many opportunities in the opening 30 minutes.

7:50And I thought Aston Villa were lucky not to be down by a couple of goals. I thought Everton were very unlucky to only have scored one goal in the first half. And I thought that was going to come back and bite them because they fully deserve to be ahead in the first half. When we got to the 90 plus minute and it was 3-2. And, you know, I thought if they don't come away with points out of this, they're going to absolutely rue those opening 20, 30 minutes to play that kind of be that dominant and potentially come away with nothing. Just would have been, I mean, I would have been frustrated for them.

8:19So, yeah, it made for a very interesting game, especially when Villa came out then the second half and was definitely more in it. Well, I think it's that I was super impressed with Everton's kind of mental resilience. And it was the strength to come from behind and secure the draw. I think there was never a point really that I thought they weren't going to get a point out of it. It kind of felt like they were just destined. Yeah, for me, I kind of felt like they've got the kind of wind in their sails. They've got that momentum. And I think obviously the result is going to absolutely boost confidence.

8:43I know they sort of struggled a little bit this season, but you kind of you are seeing them come into their own a little bit more. But yeah, I thought they created some really good chances. I thought they converted under pressure. And the two goals, obviously, by Gega, I think were amazing. And Kitagawa sort of contributed to that as well, I thought. But there were defenders up at the box. The set-up was from, who was it? It was Fernandes. Was one of the defenders set up one of the defenders to score that goal as well? I'm like, look at you all up in the box. What are you doing? You're such versus-hole players.

9:08I thought the manner in which, I mean, amazing for Mullet, because she got the start, Rachel Daly, Ebony Salmon on the bench. I haven't seen a why around that. It wasn't included in any match report I didn't see in the post-match. But for her to get the start and get a goal and an assist was incredible. But I found her so interesting towards the end of the game when the commentators were talking about how Everton had basically snatched a point away from Villa and how gutting it was for Villa, the timing of Everton's last goal, etc. And I thought actually Everton fully deserved a point from it because you could say the same about Mullet's goal in the 45th plus eighth minute of the first half.

9:47You know, that was a gutting time for Everton to concede. They deserved to go in up. So I just always find that kind of, it's almost like that recency bias. So like towards the end of a game, you just decide what's deserved based on the final kind of 20 minutes of a game rather than the entirety of it. And actually, I think points shared is probably a fair result. Yeah, I do think, I mean, obviously coming into the match kind of Villa, we've said this from the start of the season, I don't think they've performed anywhere near the standard that anyone was expecting. I think they, again, sort of showed some good character there, but like falling behind early and sort of allowing Everton to come back into the game, I just don't think it shows that kind of mentality.

10:21And like conceding three goals at home, that's such a worry for me. Like everyone talks about sort of like building this mentality of, you know, protect the house of kind of, you know, creating like this kind of fortress. But like Villa still haven't found their kind of form in that again and kind of letting the game slip so late and losing that point. It kind of, where's the game management there? Like you're, you found yourself in front, like you should be absolutely putting everything behind the defence and just shoring up. But I just, yeah, it's just frustration for me with Villa, a lot of frustration.

10:48It's weird, isn't it? Because Villa have only conceded seven goals this season. And one of the things we've been impressed with so far this season is how tight they've been defensively. And we all kind of felt that what was next for Villa was, you know, the other end of the pitch, getting the goals the other end of the pitch and actually putting away games and finishing games and winning games. say rather than drawing games so yeah like you say for them to concede three and I mean like Villa have drawn four games and you've kind of felt if they just find their shooting boots this could be all right but what Everton essentially have done is like open the floodgates almost a little bit which with respect to Everton was probably not the team you would expect to do that to Villa and because they haven't scored they've scored 10 goals and three of them obviously coming from this weekend so yeah it's an unusual one because I kind of thought that was something that Arroyo had brought into Villa was that confidence defensively, like being really switched on.

11:44And she won't be pleased with that. And I think it reminded me a little bit of their performance against West Ham, where they just weren't in it in the first half. They were asleep in the first half. They just didn't seem to get up to speed. And what both Everton and West Ham allowed Villa to do was to get back into the game. And I just think against potentially more potent opponents in front of goal, you could be out of sight by the time you get around to the second half. So that's definitely something they need to address. Well, let's talk a little bit about Everson's defence as well, because last season they had the most secure defence in the league outside of the top four.

12:15They conceded 32 goals. This term they've conceded 14 goals in their opening seven games. Villa, one place and two points above them in the table have conceded half as many. I feel like we've spoken a little bit about teams in WSL this year, kind of aiming to be more ambitious and kind of opening up that playing style and kind of being a little bit more risk-taking, I suppose. But do we think that Everton's troubles or defensive troubles are a bit of a result of that? Because from my perspective, I kind of see that we, the WSL clubs are kind of adopting this approach of playing out from the back, kind of using their goalkeepers as that extra outfield player, which has been a kind of trend that we've seen for a few years now.

12:49But they are also committing more players forward. We're seeing these like the 4-2-3-1s or the 3-4-3s and kind of managers taking a bit more of an aggressive approach and kind of pressing higher up and disrupting those big sides rather than kind of sitting back in low blocks and kind of trying to just weather the storm. But then I suppose when you're trying to build deep and kind of more consistently and trying to invite the pressure to kind of play through the lines, what's then happening is you're committing so many players up front that you're leaving yourself exposed at the back and kind of, yeah, your defensive record kind of goes out the windows, but you are a bit more of a potent threat.

13:20I mean, what's your take on it? I don't personally put it down to that. You know, seven games in last season, Everton had conceded 13 goals. So they've conceded one more than this time last season. So I don't think that's a massive change necessarily. And I wouldn't necessarily put it down to them trying to play a particular style. I think they haven't played the same back four consistently this season. It was the same back four for the first two games. It then changed for game three. It changed for game four. Game five, it changed again. And it was the same for game six. And then it changed again for game seven.

13:54So that back four, he's been dealing with injuries across the squad. Playing around a bit a little bit. Yeah, a combination of that is down to injuries. And I think he has a particular style of football. Not that he's wedded to his style, but there's a way he wants to play that requires the players to know their jobs. And I think if you're pulling people in and out every now and then, suddenly they're having to learn a new role. And that's okay when maybe you're later on in the season and the style is really bedded in across the squad and everybody understands what's happening. But I think when you've got newer players still getting up to speed with what you want and then suddenly they're like, actually, could you go out to this position here because we need you to fill in there?

14:26I think it's making it difficult for him to just be able to play the way he wants to play. I feel like he's had to tinker a lot this season, which is probably then resulting in not being as fluid as he would like. So yeah, I think from the back line there, that's probably one of the issues, is that there's just been a lot of players in and out. And, you know, there is like commonalities. There is a player who's generally involved, but it's not always the same back four. And you've got to put into that as well, Courtney Brosnan being out for a number of games, which she's like, we've spoken about her before.

14:56She is so vital to that back line. And I just think you look at that Ruby Mace own goal, not blaming anyone. I don't think it's anyone's fault. But I just think that could have been as well a lack of communication there where maybe a Brosnan will be out through bloody Ruby Mace before she even got a touch on it. You know, the kind of way you're making that call. And that's just another thing they have to contend with is developing those relationships between new players and another goalkeeper. So I wouldn't necessarily put it down to them trying to play more front footed. I mean I don't really think that's the case for Aston Villa either I just think Villa are lacking that consistency sometimes and you know they might think okay we've got this defending down we haven't conceded a lot let's let's get forward right let's start scoring goals and that's when they've maybe left themselves a little bit exposed so there's probably like different reasons for each team I reckon I was gonna say do we think then off the back of that the you know we've obviously got the January transfer window coming up we're talking about Christmas already and I do apologize I've said the c-word and I it's fine it's November I'm happy with that but at the same time obviously the January transfer window does follow from that we're going to get all these kind of like big signing transfer rumors and things happening but I think with Everton and Aston Villa there is a little bit of work to be done in terms of trying to bring in things to like shore up like you said sort of like the like defensive assurance to kind of you know protect the back line to kind of make sure they just feel a bit more confident in themselves to kind of get that consistency um and then sort of I suppose the midfields a little bit for me I think it did feel a little bit like there was a need to kind of bring in a little bit more athleticism I think in trying to in the recovery to try and get back in time to kind of again provide that kind of defensive assurance but yeah where do you kind of see Everton trying to bring in someone to where do you think gaps are essentially that Everton need to do business with?

16:34I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted a little bit more depth up front um you know Gago unbelievable um of course and waiting for Kacis Noyes to come back in as well as another key player for them their midfield may be a little bit I think for Everton it's a little bit more about depth like I touched on their defensive line they do have quite a few players who can play in there like Ruby Mace was back there this weekend but yeah it's all going to be budgetary as well isn't it and what they can actually afford to bring in I don't think you're going to see loads of players coming into either of those teams from a budget perspective so they are going to have to prioritize Villa you know what I've been really impressed with with Arroyo is her trust in the young players we've seen And you see a Kendall kind of benefit from that, getting her first call up and being unbelievable for the Lionesses.

17:19And Arroyo has given her that trust. We've seen Rachel Maltby in Villa. We've seen Mullet as well getting that opportunity. So there is a lot of trust in the young players there, that's for sure. But whether she maybe wants to bring in an experienced head, just to kind of give a little bit more of that solidity in those moments where you are ahead and you know how to see out a game. And that could be something that could be beneficial for Villa. yeah 100 % I think I've got I've definitely got to agree with that I think also kind of getting the experience in the centre back that kind of leadership and like you said the organisation are kind of missing a little bit in the moment but at the same time I think you're completely right in terms of where the club is financially obviously they've gone through a massive transition period and it feels like they've got a little bit more kind of weight behind them in terms of you know they're being this kind of genuine investor who wants to take the club on and they've always said they want to be kind of an ambitious football club and that's their kind of philosophy but But at the same time, they've never kind of been one for those big budget spends, those kind of blockbuster spends.

18:13I think it's still going to be quite tempered in kind of, I don't know, like a mid-WSL table. Use the loan system. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I think that's going to be super interesting. Tap into these big squads with big depth where they've got players who are very good but frustrated on the bench that need minutes. And I think that's like a big opportunity for teams like Villa and Everton to tap into that kind of quality that maybe ordinarily they couldn't afford but could definitely use in January because things get so interesting post-Christmas when squads almost feel like, okay, now this kind of feels like us.

18:45Now we've had time to kind of pull in the players we want. So we've seen how everything's going and we can address that if you know what I mean. And I just wonder if they could utilise that loan system a little bit more, particularly Everton. Everton are generally quite good at doing that. Well, watch this space. You've only got two and a half months to wait and a Christmas break, which would be really nice for both of us.

19:15Spurs beat Liverpool 2-1 this weekend. What an absolute worldie of a performance from Spurs coming from behind to beat Liverpool, who sits second from Boston on goal difference and are still yet to pick up a point. A little bit of light drama in the game, Rach. Obviously, you were there. you were supervising you were managing the whole scene you were kind of theater manager for this display of drama um yeah a slight ambulance issue in the lead up to the game a statement from Spurs said today's kickoff is delayed until 12 15 while we wait for the mandatory player ambulance resource to be in place we thank supporters for their patience and understanding so yeah there was a 15 minute delay while the ambulance came obviously with what happened in the game the delay was 100 percent well worth it as it always is but in this case particularly so um yeah there's been a couple of sort of outlets sort of talking about um whether this is uh a bit of an issue specifically for the women's game whether this is something that was there's quite a lot of um uproar about the fact that this has happened but Rach you have a slightly different take on on this no I just don't know why we're making a thing about it this has happened before it's happened in other games you know ambulances are quite critical things around the country they're not always immediately readily available and sometimes there's traffic like there's lots of little things that can kind of influence that it's not they're going oh it's just the women's game let's just have another cup of tea and wait like that's just silly now come on there's lots of issues going on in the women's game that we need to address but sometimes things like that happen and bloody teams have been late before for christ's sake you know arsenal you know we've had sock gates so we've had these things you know they happen in the men's game as well so let's not get carried away well You've heard it here first from the stage and floor manager of the WSL for that particular game.

20:58So hang fire and relax. It's just one of those things. Let's go suck into the game then. Summer signing Beata Olsen pounced on a loose ball in the six yard box to hand Liverpool the early lead. But the advantage didn't last too long. Beth England scored the winner at the start of the second half. Completely unmarked. Rach, you said that you had the best vantage point of everything that was going on in this game. Did you kind of see this happening? It kind of felt like Spurs are flying. They've put on absolutely flying form. The current position is just nowhere where I thought that Spurs would be at this point in the season at all.

21:30And I feel bad for saying this. Liverpool, on the other hand, struggle to get out of the blocks, just haven't found form. There are kind of issues in, you know, bringing that consistency to their performances under Gareth Taylor at the moment. Two managers fresh into their jobs, Martin Ho and Gareth Taylor, but completely different positions in where they are at the moment. I mean, yeah. What did you make of that half, Rach? It's interesting you say that because the Barclays stats said that Tottenham Hotspur are outperforming their expected points so far this season the most of any team. What were the expected points?

22:05I guess they're something like plus four ahead of where they would have been expected to be. Whereas Liverpool are underperforming their expected points by the most. So it is really contrasting fortunes when these two came up against each other. And Liverpool, of course, going into this one with the fact that Sophie Roman Hogg and Hobinger are both out with ACLs just before the international break. Both key players, particularly Hobinger, absolutely massive loss for them and up front. So their bench was already looking thin. They had, I think, five outfield players on the bench. They had seven players on the bench.

22:41Two of them are goalkeepers. so that's difficult enough to then be coming up to a high-flying Tottenham who I would say didn't start the game well didn't play their best football I thought Liverpool actually started really well and they had the momentum in the first half I think the first goal might have been offside but you know no one's going to say anything about that now but yeah I do think she was in an offside position but yeah I'd ask Gareth about that Beata Oleson I think that might have been her second start this season I think so she hasn't been getting a huge amount of opportunities in that respect so it turned out to be a good choice by Gareth I also think he didn't have a huge amount of choice but she absolutely took the chance, scoring the goal and just generally looking bright in that first half looking like a threat, getting in behind a number of times the Spurs defence so that will do her confidence in the world a good because I think she will have to be relied upon in the coming weeks for sure but yeah I think that they didn't kind of capitalize enough on that momentum allowing Spurs to get back into it and Koga coming up heading in the back of the net unbelievable signing for Spurs she's been very solid in defense I think has really helped in that back line and helped them shore up in terms of conceding because I think other than like the Man City game they really haven't conceded that many goals I think any game they've lost the other game they lost was Chelsea and that was 1-0 so they've been doing a good job in that respect But to have your defenders then be able to come up, put it in the back of the net for you as well, is pretty convenient.

24:13But yeah, the Bethany England goal I saw coming from the pass from Olivia Holt, who was unbelievable. Had a really, really good game, having a really good season. But I didn't actually see who passed the ball because it came from Tottenham's defence. And I obviously had somebody in front of me that couldn't see it. I just saw the ball. I was like, oh my God, what a ball out to Nildon up on the left. to absolutely like inch perfect for her to then swing it in for the goal. It was one of those where you could see it coming three passes out. Do you know that kind of way? You're like, they've caught them on the hop here.

24:45They just need someone on the end of it. And it was Bethany England. What I absolutely loved was kind of seeing this like crazy freedom and this kind of like the attacking transitions for Spurs. I feel like it was, like you said, Olivia Holt, Drew Spence kind of giving that freedom to kind of roam and find those attacking pockets, which I absolutely love. And I think that's why I am starting to see more of Spurs is that they're taking their opportunities. they're kind of the big chance conversion rate is like going up and up and I think someone said actually that so far in the season it's one of the best in terms of like when they're expected to score in terms of them actually putting in the back of the net so this isn't a Spurs that we kind of this feels like night and day from like last season and I think not only are they being defensively organized but also creating these chances up front is now becoming a Spurs that we're seeing really teeter into the brink of Champions League football which I think is It seems to be interesting.

25:30I know. I know. And that kills me to say it because I just didn't see that coming at all. And once again, you absolutely called it. But I do feel like it's a Spurs getting back into enjoying football again, which I've not seen for a couple of years, to be honest. I think Martin Ho has done a really good job of getting everyone to buy into what he wants to do and to trust his process. And, you know, we saw that when Dario Videsic first came in. You could just see that the players were like, OK, I can get on board with this. This seems to be working for us. this is resulting in some nice football and I think what's important when you've got a new manager is you have to experience the bumps along the way and the games that you will start where you're not playing well and you're not on top and you need to be able to see that the process that you've been asked to trust in helps you to turn the game around and I think those experiences are important for teams under new managers because it just beds in then that idea they're like okay this does work okay it wasn't going well but we committed to the process we trusted the process we've turned this game around so there's definitely like a discipline there that you can see where players are really drilled into what's expected of them you know if one player's gone up for a set piece and other players drop back in and diligently stays there until you know there was a moment where Togo was involved in a set piece and it kind of there was a second ball it came all the way back out to the Spurs defense and sent back in and she stayed up there and the cover remained like there was no kind of desire to go I'm just going to run back to my own position now no the diligence was there to stay there and I just I saw the exchange of the two players as she came back high fives you know thanks for for staying back there for me and they just switched places again and it just kind of exemplified the the discipline and the like the sticking to the plan yeah and I just I think those little moments you can see okay players have really bought into it well let's talk a little bit about Liverpool because it feels like there's this kind of not depression on the club but it doesn't feel like there's any confidence coming from the camp at all I mean psychologically without the usual threat of automatic relegation do we think that Liverpool and West Ham are more liable to kind of coast along in this kind of run of form because there is now this kind of ongoing issue where Liverpool are just not picking up points and like you said not performing with kind of any they're just nowhere near what they should be doing this season at all and I think it's that when they kind of get some momentum it then just drops off so quickly that allows teams to come back into the game.

27:50You see glimpses sometimes of them being a bit more aggressive and passing forwards. But then it feels like Taylor and Man City have almost implanted themselves in red shirts sometimes. They're sitting off and waiting for the game to come to them more, but they're not going to get by this season. Going to the relegation battle, the playoff battle for them would be an absolute... That to me is a loss. I've seen a couple of things saying that that the lack of relegation has, you know, maybe this is why teams are coasting. I actually find that quite a disrespectful suggestion that managers and players aren't trying as hard because there's no relegation.

28:30I think it's really disrespectful to imply that. I think you could maybe say that about clubs, about those that support their women's team, that, you know, we often say West Ham, it often feels like from the West Ham club perspective, not from the player manager perspective, that they just want to stay in the WSL. So in terms of resourcing, yes, that's an issue. I mean, Gareth Taylor came in really late, didn't really have an opportunity to bring in many, if any, players and is really just riding out until the January transfer window where they have to open the purse strings and have to allow him to get some players in.

29:06Even before the injuries, they were light. And I know Gareth Taylor likes a small squad, but this is ridiculous. Like with the two big injuries now, they absolutely need to bring players in, whether it's on loan or permanently. The problem is that wait. And it's similar to West Ham where they're only given so much. They're only allowed so much for the summer window. Then they're like, well, now you're going to have to wait for the January transfer window. And it's like, how much damage is that going to do to their season? How far back or how far adrift are they going to be because they've not been given the money and the investment to try and challenge from the beginning?

29:42So, yeah, I think it's a bit unfair to imply that teams aren't trying as hard because they absolutely are. These players are not going out there going, eh, if we lose, we lose. I guarantee that is not the case. And even West Ham this weekend put up a great fight against Manchester City. They were so good in the first half. But all of that just gets ignored because, A, people don't really watch the games and, B, they just look at the results and say, well, they haven't won. You know, you look at how Liverpool played against Manchester City. really really good game and unlucky not to come away with something but those kind of that context gets lost and all you're looking at is well you still have no points on the board so it's a difficult one teams go through these tough moments you know raf spoke about it last week about how you turn that around and how you kind of find yourself in this rut of of losing everton were the same you remember last season before the the takeover at everton and there's just such a kind of downer on the club and everyone was real like shoulders down struggling through matches trying to find the points from somewhere and it is often just a case of waiting for that one result to kind of lift you a little bit and I just think Liverpool and West Ham are desperate for that one result I think it's also that the one result at the moment could propel you up into sort of ninth or tenth place I mean Everton kind of steaming away sort of a little bit but at the same time like I just feel like it's not going to take a lot to kind of one get that result and kind of like elevate yourself and just like the mental shift that that then has that you're not dwelling at the bottom of the table five points is not a lot 100 do you know what i mean and also you're completely right i do think you have to factor in the fact that there has just been unfortunately quite a lot of bad luck i mean like this game i mean me and the bee being stretched off with that that neck injury absolutely horrendous um landed super awkwardly after this kind of aerial challenge and then there were kind of 22 minutes of stoppage time were played at the end of the match as a result um yeah still not too sure what's going on but we did have gareth taylor sort of commenting after the game saying it's not nice to see obviously she was stretched off i think she's gone to hospital but hopefully she's okay at one point i thought she was going to re-enter but obviously with those types of injuries it's really crucial that we take care of them so yeah from all of us up front obviously wishing a very speedy recovery and hope that she's well but at the moment obviously not clear how long she's going to be sign line for been such a key part in all of our liverpool's games this season and then obviously before the international break like you said rage liverpool suffered those two acl injuries um so yeah it kind of feels like there is some consideration to be taken and they're just being this kind of bad rum and form like there was with everton they had a spate of what two or three acls in in the space of what two or three months at the first start of the season so and they're pivotal players as well they're game-changing players so yeah it's going to be um i'm not i'm not you know destroying the kind of chance that liverpool gonna mount a comeback but i think yeah like you said it's just a mentality shift and yeah 100 new manager a lot of injuries um yeah but at the same time pitch or everything they've had to deal with off the pitch with the death 100 their kit man like so close together so there's been a lot they've had to juggle already a thin squad not having points on the board then you throw in these big injuries you're just like god this is not like what war for sure and i think it's hard like to also maintain that kind of mentality as a player like it does get you it does get to you like you're expected to obviously compete at the highest level and have you headed the game but you know you're mentally you're mentally affected you're emotionally affected psychologically affected by the things that happen in so um yeah it's yeah it's been a tough one so yeah good to add context on that one as a as a player have you been through that where the team's going through a really rough time and you just kind of have to look at players and say look i know you're giving your all but we're going to need more for the next month four weeks six weeks we're going to need you to give more you might not have played every 90 minutes, but now you're going to have to play every 90 minutes.

33:25And is there kind of that understanding within a squad that you're just like, we just have to ride through this rough patch together? Yeah, 100%. I think, you know, in those moments, it kind of feels like it falls on the senior leadership team within the team, like the more experienced players who have been through those moments in seasons previously with other clubs. And, you know, you'd need people to step up and kind of rally the troops and get people together. And I think often in those moments, what you'll see is that clubs will come together, recognise that there's a kind of a bit of a downness in the squad, like a bit of like a kind of depressed mood so you kind of do things that you know outside the club like you might go and like i don't know do like a team bonding activity or just take yourselves out of the pressure out of a pressurized situation for like i don't know like a day or a night or whatever it is and just or you kind of have managers that are very switched on and mostly intelligent managers who will kind of recognize this kind of low mood and kind of bring the team together to do a bit of like a powwow where everyone can just be honest and open about how they're feeling how this is resonating how we get out of it and also just like normalize the experience because every single club will go through and every single player will go through a patch like this like it doesn't matter whether you're you know Beth Mead whether you're Alessio Russo whether you're like the best players in the world like Alexi Puteas like they've all gone through patches with teams and individually where things haven't gone to plan like for sustained periods so yeah it's um yeah it's just there's a lot of things that you can do behind the scenes but it's just like yeah like you said kind of getting that first little like positive thing to kind of like give you that pat on the back and it's worth reminding fans and pundits you know that this does happen in football this is an isolated event you know there's no manager or player out there coasting everyone out there is doing their absolute best and they step out on the pitch to get the result they need and to get the win so I think sometimes that also gets lost in the reaction uh to these things so that I think that's an important reminder no 100 % and I think I mean off the back of this obviously another challenging situation in the England camp another high profile ACL injury in the last week with Michelle Ajimang in the England game against Australia obviously she's going to miss the rest of the season while she recovers but I just oh Rach I felt so upset I think it was I knew as soon as I saw it I think it's that but you know like there was moments in who was it in the World Cup Kira Walsh yeah Kira Walsh going down and she was clutching her knee my knee my knee 100 % and I thought okay let it be one of those moments let it be like she came out a few days later going the media totally blew that up I don't know what they were talking about I'm fine and we were like Kira you cannot do that yeah it wasn't all day and I was hoping and praying that that was it but she was down for such a long period of time and you could tell from like she was clearly devastated like there was a lot of concern from the players around her and I think that was happen that was what got it for me was the other players being like shit this is yeah like I think Beth me pointed to her knee like alex greenwell was immediately over they lucy bonds was in the tunnel like she'd come out of the i think she'd just gone in but like she'd come out of the tunnel and she was like looking on concern like like just like concerned parent and i just think i think it was just it's the timing of it because everyone has just had this this weight of expectation behind her off the back of the euros and she's in this incredibly like this trajectory that she's on at the moment to kind of be like it just feels like it's just the wrong time for like this rising star to just be like, yeah, this kind of felt like her breakout season to kind of like do what she could with Brighton, maybe spend another year at Brighton or go back into the Arsenal camp in like a completely, I just felt absolutely gutted.

36:46I felt so, so upset. Well, she's young. She's strong, both physically and mentally. You know, this is an early stage in her career. And yes, she's obviously had this amazing 12 months, but she's young and she will come back from this. and you know we will still be singing the praises of Michelle Adjumang I'm sure come next season but yeah absolutely got him to see 100 % like you look at the legends around that have you know suffered ACL injuries you know your Leah Williamson and your Beth Meads and like they've come back fully full like flying absolutely flying you've got this you've got this Michelle like we need to see you back ASAP but yeah wishing you all the absolute best with your recovery mate and yeah send in send in big love because we're well I'm your absolute biggest fan we you and Chiara Keating big fans Yes.

37:30Bryson manager Daryl Vinicic said it's not just us that are heartbroken, but the whole nation seeing her go down in that game. I think we all held our breath and you could tell like the whole stadium just went completely silent. There was a nice round of applause. She was kind of being stretched off as well. I think everyone was just a little bit heartbroken. But yeah, wishing her a very speedy recovery. On the subject of England, we've got another question in from Lorna Hayes on Instagram. She said, what do you think of Mary Earp saying what she said about Hannah Hampton? okay so to give context of the conversation you must have been hiding under a rock if you've not seen everything that's been going on uh the conversation at the moment obviously focused around mary epps's new autobiography uh parts of which were released in a guardian article on friday in the book epps says that when hannah hampton was called to the england squad in 2023 having previously been dropped she approached sassy veegs and told her she was rewarding bad behavior by integrating hampton the background to this in november 2022 it was reported that Hampton was left out of the squad because of poor attitude but Wiegmann declined to comment on this saying it was down to something personal.

38:34We didn't really have a lot of kind of context to that we were kind of left a little bit in the dark about what was really going on behind the scenes it was very kind of well managed from a comms perspective because there wasn't really any kind of leaks as to what was going on. During the 2022 Euros Hampton was an unused substitute but was picked again in early 23 and by Euro 25 was obviously the Lioness's first choice goalkeeper picking up the trophy. But in April 25, obviously, Rachel, we were on the pod when the news broke that Earps wasn't going to start for England and also then announcing her retirement from international football came as a massive shock for everybody.

39:06No one kind of saw it coming. Yeah, kind of came a little bit left field and no one could kind of understand what was going on. Then in her autobiography, Earps has explained that she felt that Hannah Hampton disrupted a harmonious atmosphere in the England camp and that the decision by Regman to start Hampton over her was an unjust one. So she wrote, it doesn't make me feel comfortable. I said in the response to the idea of a return, not needing to remind her of the disharmony that the squad had felt before. I felt protective of the good energy we now had in the goalkeeper training camp and morale of the wider team.

39:37There's a lot of commentary, kind of loads of people kind of weighing into this. We've obviously had some comments from Sonia Bompasta. We've had comments from players sort of stepping into, you know, this kind of ongoing debate around Earps and Hannah Hampton. There's obviously a lot of curiosity about what's sort of gone on behind the scenes, which Ertz has kind of shed a little bit of light on. But it's a really difficult... I haven't read the book. I don't want to kind of weigh in too heavy on any opinion on what's going on. It's obviously not great for the England camp kind of having, you know, a little bit of unsettledness around what's going on with players at this level.

40:08But, I mean, Rach, what's your kind of take on it all? I actually don't think my take is that important. I don't think adding my opinion to this situation because I don't have extra insight and I don't have, you know, additional stuff that people don't know. And I don't actually think adding how I feel about the whole thing or my opinion contributes anything to it. I think it just kind of feels a bit gossipy to do that. So I do feel a bit concerned about how Mary's being advised. I think that would be my worry a little bit. I just found the timing of all of the things that have gone on from the retirement, the announcement of the book, which was announced on the day of the Ballon d 'Or, to this situation just hasn't been handled great.

40:54It feels like there was no real expectation of the reaction to it, which feels I don't understand how that could have been missed. And I do think it's important to point out that the segments, so they weren't just quotes chosen and placed into an article in The Guardian. It would have been a conversation between both sides as this was a partnership around what segments of the book would be featured. and that would have been agreed upon by both sides. And I think that is important to put in there because it isn't a case of picking and choosing at random without any kind of input. It would have been decided upon by both parties.

41:29So segments were chosen. And I just, yeah, I hope she's okay, Mary. I hope Hannah's okay. I think they're difficult things for both of them to be going through for different reasons. And I think both of them have people around them. I just worry that about the support that Mary is getting because I'm just a little bit surprised by some of the decisions that have been made and the way that this has been handled. So, yeah, it's not been great. Yeah, I think, I mean, from my perspective, I kind of always appreciate players being open and honest about the experiences they've had. I think it helps to kind of normalise that, you know, camps aren't always harmonious, that there can be things that go on behind the scenes.

42:07I think it does obviously create a little bit more tension when those things become more public, as they have done. but yeah at the same time I think there's obviously a lot more in that conversation that we obviously aren't all privy to so yeah just hope they're both okay and I hope it's not a situation that sort of is prolonged by any any more than it needs to be all right now we are going to be joined by Jack and Kimberly from Who Gives a Shirt to talk about all things football kits

42:41Jack, Kimberly, thank you so, so much for joining us. What a pleasure to have you guys on the show. And just give us a little bit of like a different energy, really. We've talked all things women's football. We've talked about the WSL. We've talked about the ACL dramas. And now it feels like we get a really nice opportunity to talk about football fashion, clubs, history, kits and everything in between. So it's so lovely to have you guys on. How are you both doing? Yeah, thanks for having us. We're doing good. Yeah, feeling great. Yeah, it's not too bad. Well, I'm in sunny Dubai. So, you know, I can't, I'm assuming, Jack, you've been out a few times because you clocked the decor straight off the bat anyway.

43:13I've been Dubai, I think, like three or four times. I've DJed over there twice and I've just been there on like a, on a social. It's always fun. It's fast paced if you go to the right places. Otherwise, it's kind of, you can just, Dubai, there's loads of different things you can do, so. Honestly, it's gorgeous. I was, yeah, I was pale, I was depressed and then I stepped off the plane honestly into gorgeous sunlight. There was just like beaches everywhere, just like gorgeous food, like the energy is like lovely. So yeah, I'm not entirely sure I'll come back. I might just do the podcast remotely to be fair.

43:44I'm sorry. I was gonna say don't ask her about Dubai because we'll never get her off the topic. And we actually want we wanted you guys to come and talk about your relationship with football kits down the years, not Chloe bragging about Dubai. You've obviously been both been making a show with Puma called Who Gives a Shirt? Which is all about the history of football kits and our relationships with them. What drew you to it? I was really kind of joining in from like a learning perspective. I really wanted to learn a lot more about football, particularly football shirts, because I love fashion. I love getting dressed.

44:14I think it's really super fun. And we obviously do talk a lot about sustainability, which is a cause I'm quite passionate about. So that was kind of me just going in, not knowing too much. And obviously got the pleasure of being co-hosted with Jack, which is amazing. and then getting to interview all these amazing guests who just had so much knowledge. Honestly, me and Jack were blown away by the end of it. Like, I feel like I've been in school. So that was kind of my angle. Yeah, Jack, who's been, like, what's your take on it? And who do you reckon has been your best guest on the show so far?

44:43Do you know what? I think Zymakar, he come in, I think he might have been one of our first guests actually. And he just come in with all these facts and figures, like dates, he pulled them out of thin air, like just anything you wanted to know. Giza just knew like straight away and he was just giving up so much information um about you know how the style of shirts how that how they changed um you know what what we what footballers were doing before there was actually football shirts because um they used to use cricket tops um because football used to be played in the winter and cricket was in the summer so years ago they used to just wear the thick cotton really heavy tops in the winter and of when it rains and you sweat so obviously it's definitely not ideal so it was just honestly it was really interesting just to learn the development and the progress of football shirts me personally i used to play football from the age of like four up until like 22 and i i i literally remember wearing football shirts and i must have been about eight nine and ten and the embroidery nowadays it's not really embroidered it's more like a it's more like laid onto the onto the fabric right but i remember it used to itch my skin like crazy you know and i just remember now you don't have that problem so even when i was playing football it's changed it takes me back to kind of my early playing days with like with spurs and we had just like offshoots of like even going back to actually late in orient days when i was what seven eight years old and we'd obviously just get the men's kits they were massively oversized like the weight of the material was absolutely crazy like you said jack like you had like the embroidery but you should like rub on your skin and like cause rashes where like you're running up and down and stuff i feel like our our history of like not nice kits is not that recent it's not that old i should say you know you don't have to look you can look back at chloe and i mean now chloe's old but you know you look back at her history and you know and the and the kits you've had to wear and it's not that long ago that players were still wearing big baggy oversized men's kits you know I think it's fair to say they've become a much more important part of the visibility, the profile of the women's game.

46:51Even looking across to say the NWSL where they have clubs that don't have an allegiance to a men's team. So they get to create their own style, their own look in their football kits. And it's completely different to anything maybe we've seen before. But like Lioness's kits, for instance, they're becoming more fashionable and more visible than ever before. I don't know, Kim, if you've noticed that we're seeing more of that in and around, not just the men's game, but the women's game as well, where, you know, fashion is a really important part of supporting your club. Yeah, absolutely. And one of the episodes we did featuring our guest, Hattie Crowther, who reimagines football shirts in different ways.

47:30She spoke a lot about that, you know, the journey from the stands to the pitch and fans and how fans have reinterpreted football shirts. And I feel like it's a really important one because it allows people like myself as a casual observer to have a way into football, which isn't like I'm a diehard particular fan, but I like what this means. I want to be a part of the culture. I think I think it's been a nice pivot personally. I love that. I think I mean, I'm 100 percent. I absolutely love the fashion side of it. And I think even like we did some sort of stats and data at the start of the season around, you know, how are you buying your kits?

48:03Why are you buying your kits? Is it because you absolutely love your club or you're loyal to your club and like it's your ride or die? but actually we were finding that people were buying sort of multiple kits like in like arsenal because of like the i don't know stella mccartney kind of collaboration or you're also supporting your club you know manchester united you're absolutely right or do your family club but you're doing it elsewhere and i also do exactly the same thing like i've bought so many arsenal kits didn't start off being an arsenal fan became an arsenal fan but also just love the culture she's easily bought don't i do i can see you rolling your eyes i know you're gonna chirp in with something no no no up the arsenal do you know what i mean up the arsenal yeah but i was gonna say like you guys obviously i mean a big part of part of you is kind of the sustainability and kind of um you know sort of fashion we see so many people sort of like throw kits away or kind of they go into you know dumps and sort of become waste and things like that but a club like arsenal absolutely amazing kits but also at the same time they drop kits every couple of days it seems i mean what are your guys thoughts and kind of sustainability but also kind of like creating this kind of fashion culture where you have you know these amazing kits that people want to buy and it creates all this FOMO and demand?

49:02Well, I think there's obviously a couple of lenses with it. I think there's a lot of people who are like upcycling and buying things off, let's say like vintage secondhand, which is super cool, which is amazing. But then obviously Puma's got an initiative called Refiber, where they're basically like taking recycling textile to textile. And I feel like that is a really great initiative where people can like, you know, take their old shirt, give it to Puma, they can rework it, make something new and something beautiful. I think that's obviously helpful. I think there's a long way to go. obviously in terms of because yeah there are new kits all the time someone like me the old me used to buy like I used to buy a new outfit every weekend for the club do you know what I mean so I could also buy a new shirt every time so I think I think it's making people feel a little bit more conscious when they're buying um for example like my housemate she's got she's got kits from back in the day like her wardrobe I open her wardrobe is like top top top top that just goes through like so many different years and she enjoys being able to collect older tops aren't necessarily the new ones what about you jack what your kind of vibe yeah i think it's great what puma are doing as well because it hasn't just got to be puma tops i i i thought oh it's just going to be a puma top you can only bring up this anything like literally any top um and yeah and also the upcycling side of things as well andrew burgess one of the like one of my guests that come in he was talking to us all about upcycling the difference between upcycling and recycling and he had made like it was more the question was what hadn't he made like he'd made so many bits of clothing from other parts of of clothes and i just thought it was amazing like i i would fully fully rock some of the stuff that he's made like it's actually sick so yeah i think i think the direction that we're going is a really positive one i also think like if you look at a lot of the shirts that clubs are bringing out like the kind of third kits or even like just extra shirts they're bringing out to make money obviously um look so like some of the old kits they're really gone retro with a lot of them.

50:58So it feels like keep hold of your shirt because it's going to come back into fashion again. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I love a retro shirt. Arsenal literally just dropped one recently and it looks so good. Like it looks so good. I think I saw Ian Wright wear it and it was just, yeah, it just took, it was weird because obviously Ian had the original type of style. The JVC one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Even the O2 one. Like I remember wearing that, the blue kit. Like I was kind of a little bit retro as well. but yeah no I think it's amazing that history repeats itself right so it's really nice to see things come back into fashion 100 % I think I wish I kind of kept some of my old kits like back in the day like my favourite kit I was a Man United fan growing up and it was like the best era for Man United and honestly it changes daily but like it just depends on what kit is the best essentially but like back in the day it was the Peter Schmeichel purple jersey it had sharp on the front of it and then you had like the red jersey as well with the like grey collar as well and it was just like iconic because you had like gig schmeichel beckham canton are like it was like an era of football that was just like but then it was a weird one because like you see these kits were so fashionable and then i was looking at photos of like i don't know ferdinand and rooney and beckham out on a night out and these guys were wearing like bell-bottom jeans and like loafers the job position was crazy yeah and we probably have to ask before we let you go are there any kits in the women's game that stand out to you like we've seen clubs I mean I don't want to bring up Arsenal again but I'm gonna have to they have they have done like those kind of collaborations with Stella McCartney all that kind of stuff like how impressed with you I guess a that we're starting to see more of that in the women's game but b is there anything that you've liked particularly that clubs have done Yeah, I think the Stenor McCarty was a great move.

52:49I think that's such a sick move to do. Arsenal are always doing collabs. I mean, they've done one with the TFL, I think. They even got one that has actually got Kim hooked. It's the carnival one. Oh, yeah. Nice. I think, for me, probably the Lioness 2025 kit. Obviously. I just feel like that's going to be such a moment in history. Like, even when we look back, it's like, okay, they brought it home again. Do you know what I mean? It's a piece that tells a story. And I like clothes that tell a story. So I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of that one. yeah I love that when you can see it in the detail when you like bring kits out they kind of reference historical moments and stuff like that it's so nice I think it's the emotion that brings like the kit like I think it's that like what were you doing in that moment like what you were wearing it but like you were celebrating something that was like so much bigger than like the moment itself like yeah I wish I'd have got I didn't get the kit which is ridiculous I know don't don't don't you got Man United you got asked to win the other kits and you ain't got the main one this is the worst way to end a fashion kit podcast I've ever had this is the biggest mic drop ridiculous moment of yeah that was stupid of me but yeah thank you guys so much for joining us and giving us a bit of insight into the fashion world and what Puma are doing with the kits as well because yeah 100 % I'm going to have to take some of my Arsenal and Man United and soon to be Lioness's kits down to the Puma shop to get them sorted and embroidered because yeah I need a little bit of that because I'm losing space so yeah thank you so much for joining us guys appreciate it thank you so much for having us thank you thank you for listening to Upfront you can find us on Instagram and x slash Twitter I'm at Morgie underscore 89 Rach is at Girls on the Ball and we are at Upfront underscore pod you can also find us on YouTube at Upfront pod see you next week

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