Arsenal’s FA Cup hoodoo, the WSL2 can’t stop cooking and England vs Spain... again!

0:04Rachel: Welcome to Upfront. I'm Chloe Morgan. And I'm Rachel O'Sullivan. A shock for Arsenal in the FA Cup this weekend. But Chelsea pulled through. Lots to get stuck into there. The Cup was also a chance to get a look at the current top two in the WSL2, Birmingham City and Charlton Athletic. How did they fare against the top division opposition that they faced? And finally, we look ahead to the return of the Lionesses who will be facing, you guessed it, Spanish. again.

0:34Rachel: It's a mix-match, a hodgepodge of different games and different tournaments popping up over the next few weeks, which makes it quite exciting. Multiple hats have to be put on. You've got WSL1, you've got WSL2, you've got NBA Cup, you've got Champions League. I think it's nice to wear those multiple different hats at the same time and just forget what competition everyone's in. Sometimes you're like, wait, who's that? Who do they play for again? Yeah, it's like a women's football stew. if you will loads of different vegetables loads of different meats don't know what's going to come out but there's going to be something beautiful there's always

1:05Chloe: charito involved because Spain are always bloody there

1:09Rachel: that's a really nice analogy thank you okay before we try and decipher what's been going on over the last week what's your moment of the weekend Rach? I'm going to go with

1:21Chloe: Zara Shaw scoring that all important goal took the words right out of my mouth you apologies for Liverpool but I had to sit through that game so I'm taking it it was 120 minutes of my life I won't get back but you're not getting on that moment yeah my minutes are very valuable right now that moment was a special one because she has played 45 minutes for Liverpool they're under 21 since making her return from her ACL injury obviously young 18 year old academy product you know all of that kind of thing there's so many little fairytale moments and they're the kind of FA Cup moments that we love so yeah I thought that when she came on late in the game thought I was gonna go to penalties it was one of those like the football gods knew we had Easter Sunday dinner with family so they were like you know what we're gonna go to extra time uh but then Zara Shaw came on and saved the day it wasn't a pretty goal we don't need to look back at the actual goal but I mean the goal summed up the game generally but um yeah it was lovely because she got her flowers there from the traveling Liverpool fans it was very nice I really

2:20Rachel: really like that mate yeah what a lovely moment for her um and I also saw a lot of on you know on socials, your Easter weekend with your lint bunnies and your lovely little photos of Soph and stuff. The in-laws were you as well. I mean, not a religious family, but we'll go big on Easter. Chocolate. There was a big celebration for it. Yeah, Christ, you go hard. Thanks for the invite. My moment of the weekend was Vila Berman. Oh, what a goal. That was pure limbs when she scored that. I just, it was just, it was like one of those car wash things. Yeah, the 19, She is 19. Yeah, it came on as a 59th minute sub.

2:59Rachel: And just like what she did, this like thunderous left-footed strike. It was just like a, it was a rocket. It was just the pace on it. It was just the beauty of it. The trajectory. It just, yeah, the keeper had absolutely no chance at all.

3:11Chloe: I was down that end for its shooting. And I messaged Sophie. I felt the pressure was building from Chelsea. And I messaged Sophie at 15.12. And I said, goal incoming. 15.13. Verla Berman fires in that rocket. and my reply is told you ridiculous 86th minute do you know why sometimes you're just like it's coming there's something you can feel it in your bones it's gonna happen yeah yeah I mean I didn't expect it from there bloody hell but what a rocket it was it was the first Chelsea goal as well I was just gonna say it's like yeah

3:38Rachel: debut goal as well fairytale moment number two and what a moment it was such a pivotal moment in the game to save Chelsea so yeah I thought there was I did have gone to extra time again Chloe it's taken me back

3:49Chloe: to the Euros when like every quarterfinal went to extra time it felt like and the semis do you remember

3:54Rachel: oh let's not go there it's okay mate I have flashbacks I was gonna say we're over it now it's 2026 right let's get stuck into the FA Cup drama then a lot went on this weekend but the biggest and people are calling it a cup set which I think is like you can kind of say that because I think there was probably a higher expectation that Arsenal would win the game but also Brighton let's give them their bloody flowers on a good day they're gonna take the game they're gonna take the game I mean they beat them last season

4:21Chloe: well that's the thing

4:22Rachel: And Arsenal got knocked out at this stage last season. Let's not sit there and say, let's not get complacent about this result. And complacency, I think there actually was. So Arsenal crashed out to Brighton, 2-0 at Meadow Park. They're one step closer to their first ever appearance at Wembley. Brighton, really spicy start. Very, very punchy. You've got that first effort from Kankovic, pretty much immediately testing Daphne van Domsalaat. Daphne van Domsalaat, bless her, had the sun facing her. I don't think she was expecting to be called into action that quickly. But it was a little bit of a kind of a warning sign, I think, for Arsenal that they didn't really heed all that well.

4:59Chloe: It reminded me of the way Chelsea started against Villa previous weekend. Do you know that kind of way over the first five minutes, they're like, just not quite. Not at the races. Yeah. And it felt like that from Arsenal. And I mean, I don't really think there's excuses for it. I know they had Champions League midweek, but, you know, this is the stage of the season where you're going to be in multiple competitions. and if you want to go far multiple competitions you have to be able to play these games but what I felt like was Brighton recognised that there would potentially be a little bit of vulnerability a slow start yeah for sure and I really rated the fact that they went right we need to go out all guns blazing from the get go get them on the back foot and try and keep them on the back foot I think Arsenal grew into the second half they did but what I liked from Brighton was they didn't take their foot off the gas in the second half and they kept that pressure on and sometimes teams like like your Villas or your Brightons they'll have a good half and then kind of fall away.

5:49Chloe: And actually, I really rated how Brighton were like, nah, we've got like a foothold in this game. We've got them on the ropes a little bit and arguably are creating better chances. Let's give a little bit of credit to Fran Kirby.

6:00Rachel: She, the absolute hero of the game, if you will.

6:03Chloe: Someone who knows how to play against Arsenal and win.

6:05Rachel: Weirdly enough, like quite a lot of experience in all the games that she's played for the last two decades. She obviously assisted in both goals. Amazing goals too. So the 47 minutes, she kind of plays as an assist out to Hayley, who sort of goes into the battle. How is she scoring that? Well, this is the thing. I want to talk through this angle with you. Because, I mean, go and have a look at it. So Kirby kind of plays out this ball to Hayley. Hayley kind of, the ball kind of drifts out towards the right-hand side of the net. And you're thinking that that angle is just, there's just absolutely no charge.

6:31Rachel: And the defender's coming. And you've got Kadena kind of like on her tail, kind of like battling like a kind of 1v1 situation. Looks like it's drifted too wide. The angle's so, so narrow. And then just out of nowhere, manages to lift it kind of almost across goal over DVD and into the far top court. And I was like, I don't even know. how physics has bended to make this happen.

6:50Chloe: Unbelievable finish. And I was watching that thinking, initially thinking there's no way that, you know, there's going to be a shot off. I also think the defender was slightly, I mean, Kadena just kind of lacked the pace a little bit because she did try and put pressure on Hayley, but she just felt like she was a foot behind. I thought she thought she was out of reach,

7:08Rachel: that she wasn't going to score from there. Even when she leaned into her,

7:10Chloe: it was like, yeah, you're putting a bit of pressure on, but actually, you know, anyway, not to take away from the quality of the finish because that should not have ended up in the back of the net. I don't know how the hell she did it. It was unbelievable.

7:19Rachel: Absolutely. And then in the 62nd minute, you've got Kirby then delivering this like super deep corner and then Caitlin Hayes ahead her at the back post. I mean, again, oh, kerbs, mate. There's nothing more you can do for this game. Two massive assists, great goals. And I think it was very well deserved for me.

7:36Chloe: Yeah, I do. I think Arsenal looked a little bit lost. Devoid of ideas. You know, I think at times you might have said maybe at the beginning of this year, Arsenal then might have found a way back into the game. But they just seem to have like they looked a little bit. It was it wasn't a super high quality game. Can I just say there is very bouncy, bubbly. The ball was. I don't know about the FA Cup. I've seen a lot of chat about the FA Cup ball being a very bouncy ball. There's something about someone said it was like a ball you buy from like a service station. One of those floaty things. Yeah, and not that that's not an excuse for anything, but it just, it added to that kind of lack of quality at times in the midfield where it felt a little bit like people were chasing the ball around a little bit.

8:18Chloe: And Arsenal just looked a little bit kind of like out of ideas, you know, out of position a little bit at times and struggled to kind of find a foothold. And, you know, some of those chances they created, they absolutely could have scored. Definitely. And it was, in the past, you've seen Arsenal do it at the beginning of the season where they create those chances and they don't go in and they go, oh, Jesus.

8:37Rachel: Yep.

8:37Chloe: And then this year they've had a little bit of that but they've kind of thought it's okay we're going to get more chances we'll score them as soon as Brighton scored it was almost like Arsenal were like nah we're creating but we're not scoring and they it's like they fell back into that kind of mindset again um but yeah it just bobbily kind of summed up the game that pitch is dreadful oh my god I was gonna say I don't think

8:56Rachel: the quality of the pitch hurt like helped at all for both sides but I think yeah I mean it's an even it's an even playing kill I think when you've got that Dario Vinicic actually said post-match

9:04Chloe: that when they came out for the warm-up and they saw the state of the pitch they recognized they couldn't necessarily play the way they wanted to play. So they went a little bit more over the top. And I just think Brighton adapted far quicker and far better than Arsenal did to the situation. Because you're right, the pitch is the same for both teams. But I just think Brighton were better at adapting. And it makes you wonder, like, if this is meant to be another home for Arsenal, really, they should be. I mean, I've been to a couple of Champions League games this season and the pitch is, honest to God, horrendous.

9:33Chloe: Like, I just don't think they should be playing at Barnwood, personally, at the Meadow Park. I just don't think it's... 100%. about 19 teams seem to play on it a week so 19 no I'm joking is that an actual stat I was like no wonder

9:45Rachel: it looks like that 4 games a day it looks like fucking farmyard fodder for fuck's sake no but I do think Brighton were adapted much quicker and much better well talking about the pitch Arsenal aren't due to have another game at Meadow Park this season but the stats are pretty brutal so they've had 1 loss in 22 under Slaggers at the Emirates but 5 losses in 15 at Meadow Park

10:03Chloe: I mean it's not that brutal I think if you maybe other teams would be like Christ if you only lost 5-15 that's not a third loss rate at Meadow Park

10:11Rachel: but I mean if you look at the stats though one loss in 22 yes it turns out

10:15Chloe: playing on carpet is easier and more enjoyable but then it does provoke that question

10:19Rachel: doesn't it how teams adapt when you're starting to go from playing at these main stadia to going back to your old stadia how you then adapt your style of play to do that to fit yeah maybe it's not a benefit having games at main stadia anymore if you're being asked to have these FA Cup fixtures at these games or raise the fucking standard of the pitch

10:37Chloe: I was going to say, let's not go backwards.

10:39Rachel: Let's not leave the main stadia. Let's improve the shitty pitches. Why do I keep advocating for women's rights to go backwards? Very toxic for me.

10:45Chloe: I know you said that they're not due to play another game there. I hope they're not. Champions League semifinals will be interesting because the men play in the Emirates the same weekend. So that's going to be, and I actually think Boromwood men play there the same weekend as well. So that's going to be one to watch. But hopefully we don't have to traipse out to Boromwood because not only is the pitch not very good, but the facilities aren't great. not great for media and I think you know obviously they bring in a huge number of fans into the Emirates and then to try and pile in at Meadow Park is not easy so fingers crossed that that doesn't happen

11:18Rachel: anything to make your experience better ideally yeah sorry not all of us could sit in a box

11:22Chloe: drinking champagne my friend you're not going to be doing that at Meadow Park Chloe unless you want to sit in the gantry with a bottle of Vimto

11:30Rachel: why would it be Vimto?

11:31Chloe: I don't know it's the only thing I think of it like it's quick

11:32Rachel: some shit do you know I wouldn't be going if there's not a box that's true That's true. That's ridiculous from you. Arsenal now haven't reached the last four since 2022. They haven't won the FA Cup since 2016. They did obviously start this game with a super strong squad.

11:48Chloe: Russo didn't start. And I actually think that was, not that it contributed, they should be good enough to be able to manage those changes, but they just looked like disjointed in general. They just looked not at the races, as you said earlier.

11:58Rachel: The defending for me was like the key area where it just looked a little bit kind of all over the place. The clearances weren't going anywhere. They didn't seem to, it was very panicked. It kind of was like there was emergency defending happening all the time. You know, players like sitting on the line, just like hoping that it wouldn't go in. Like it just felt like an Arsenal that completely lost confidence from the week that literally days before when they just managed to get themselves into the Champions League semifinals. So, yeah, I mean, it's not it's not a great record when you look at it.

12:24Rachel: But people maybe forgive Arsenal because of like the recent success of the Champions League and how they're kind of doing in the league generally is fairly good.

12:32Chloe: I think I'd be pretty frustrated if I were an Arsenal fan. I thought it was interesting. I laughed when the BBC's headline was Brighton upset 14-time Women's FA Cup winners Arsenal. And I was like, that's the haven't even won the bloody thing since 10 years ago. Like, chill out. They got knocked out this stage last season against Liverpool. I think what I thought was interesting, I was chatting to Sophie about this, is we often talk about teams that are built to go far in multiple competitions. You know, you talk about your Chelsea's. People talk about Arsenal as an example of squads that have more depth so they can go far in multiple competitions.

13:04Chloe: And because Arsenal won the Champions League and, you know, are getting further in the Champions League over the seasons, for me, people see them as a team that are built to go far in multiple competitions. But what about domestic? They seem to be falling short domestically. You know, they won a League Cup, I think, maybe two seasons ago was the last time they won a domestic trophy. FA Cup's been a long time. League has been a long time. And while, yes, the squad is built in a way that it's helping them in the Champions League I just wonder if the format of the Champions League is a more manageable situation for their squad for whatever reason you know they like that competition and I think maybe that kind of knockout phase every what six weeks or so is maybe something that they're good at and I just wonder if the consistency within a league is something they've struggled a little bit with because yes they've gone far in the Champions League but domestically not necessarily so really is the squad built for four tournaments or four sorry competitions excuse me if the other three competitions they're not really getting that far in.

14:01Chloe: This is the second time they've gone out of the quarterfinals in a row, which I think is one to look at. Interesting.

14:06Rachel: It's a weird one though, because even though obviously I think the WSL title is out of reach, when you kind of look at Arsenal standing in the league right now, so they're third, they've played 17 games with 38 points. They've got two games in hand to Chelsea and Man City. If they win those two games, then you're taking it up to 44 points. I mean, that's a pretty good run. I think Man City have just had an incredible season this year, but at any other season, perhaps that would have been like Chelsea dropping off form, and any other season that probably would have been maybe an Arsenal WSL title yeah I mean

14:35Chloe: they've lost it before on the last day

14:37Rachel: and stuff like that you know but I just I feel like that yeah even though they've not got that WSL title always has been quite a close affair for them they've just been picked at the post and I just think

14:46Chloe: it's interesting yes they've got these games in hand but I think back to last season they'd gotten into the semi-finals of the Champions League against Lyon funnily enough they lost in the quarterfinals of the FA Cup and they kind of dropped off those last few games they lost to Aston Villa they lost to Brighton in the league. So one of those games at hand is Brighton. Brighton, Leicester, they're going to, I think, have to reschedule the Everton one, I think, or one of the games when the semifinals are. And that's going to have a knock-on effect as well. So it's just interesting when you get to this latter stage of the season.

15:16Chloe: Obviously, the Champions League is such a big competition. It's how they manage their focus with those multiple competitions. And there's two left now, essentially. They're not going to win the league. Does that have a bearing on how they, I don't know. I just think it's interesting.

15:30Rachel: I think that's a really lovely little point there I don't often praise you No you don't Fair enough Before we touch too much on the Champions League Brighton now have a huge chance to make the FA Cup final They've been drawn against Liverpool If you wanted the FA Cup draw to go that way That's the perfect way for it to happen Because either Brighton or Liverpool are in the final 100 % That's so exciting Couldn't be more favourable Chelsea and Man City obviously in the other semi-final But it does feel like this is a real chance for Brighton to make Wembley to kind of make Liverpool. Yeah, or, sorry, yeah, or Liverpool.

16:03Rachel: To be at Wembley and kind of have this really gorgeous, like, historic moment. You know, I remember, like, when Spurs kind of went to Wembley for the first time two years ago, was it? Yes, got battered, yeah. Yeah, they got absolutely tanked. But at the same time, like, what an experience for the players to kind of be in this environment and for the fans to kind of, like, go and see their team at Wembley for the first time. That's huge.

16:23Chloe: Because I was, we were doing a live at the weekend and someone was saying, like, was kind of complaining about how there's very rarely any cup sets in the FA Cup in the Women's FA Cup and I was a bit like well you know we've had Notts County, Birmingham we've had West Ham Tottenham in finals before now we're going to have Brighton or Liverpool in the final like that's amazing and I'm so glad because if it had been pulled out where it had been split and it was Chelsea and Man City on either side it would have been a bit like a little bit so I just think it makes for a more exciting there's going to be yeah I'm really looking forward to it maybe we'll do it at the match maybe we'll do an at the match maybe we'll do it at the match

17:00Rachel: we shall see just saying oh wait you'll probably be in a box probably Arsenal of course battled past Chelsea at Stamford Bridge last week in the Champions League 1-0 on the night but a 3-2 win for Arsenal on aggregate

17:11Chloe: it was a it was quite a breathless game yeah it was quite an exciting game and that breathlessness and excitement kind of waited until the final 20 minutes like it was a good quality game for those 70 minutes but it just really ramped up in the final 15-20.

17:26Rachel: It felt cagey to me for a long part of the game. And weirdly enough, I mean, I was sitting a couple of seats down from Lauren James' dad, who's the loveliest man in the world. But watching someone's dad who's playing in a game like this, where obviously it meant like Chelsea had to score. They had to score multiple goals to keep themselves in the competition. So when Arsenal kind of kept them at bay for such a long period of time, it was getting squeaky bum time, squeaky bum time. And it just didn't feel like it was going to happen. And then obviously you've got Sonia Bampasta, who's normally a, you know, she has her spicy moments, but she's normally a cool, calm head.

17:57Rachel: I'd say she's very active on the sideline. Animated. Animated. But I feel like there's been a progression in the animation definitely towards the back end of the season when she's had to face, obviously, a few of the big dogs leaving. There's some player rumours floating around that players might be going to other places. The WSL title now looks out of reach. The Champions League is now gone. But it looked like Sonia wanted to get on the pitch and put the ball in the back of the net for Chelsea. She's maybe like, this is it. I've tried everything else. She was like, I've told you what to do. You're not doing it.

18:26Rachel: Let me get on. It was very, and then obviously to get the red card as well.

18:30Chloe: And to bring her phone into post-match. Yeah. The problem with bringing the phone into post-match is she's now created a meme. And I don't know if you've seen it because all the Arsenal fans are like putting photos of Arsenal holding the trophy on the phone with her pointing at it. And you're just like... Gold though. I mean, it's funny. People are so funny. Listen, some of the stuff that comes up within like two or three minutes of full time. I'm like, how do people... They're so funny and so quick.

18:54Rachel: I can't even wish to be that witty.

18:55Chloe: Do you remember when Carla Ward was at Aston Villa and she went up into the stands and she was like, she was sat up in the stands with a walkie-talkie. Do you remember? Vaguely. Oh my God, that was one of the funniest memes. Or when Gareth Taylor went up into the stands because you know he likes to be in the stands watching the game on his phone. And people were like, Mom, can you come pick me up? Do you actually have beaten us again? Like, I think they don't think about the smart people on social media who come up with such funny memes when they do stuff like that. Honestly, I remember like when...

19:21Chloe: I know there's a lot of stuff to think about, so it's probably like last thing they're thinking about, but just want to know. 100%.

19:25Rachel: Was it like the Russo-Kelly note? I think Russo passed Kelly a note or whatever it was, and it was like the amount of things that were written on that note. That's just so funny. Honest to God. Keep it up. The unfunniest thing right now for Sonia Bonpasta is that obviously it's not a season that has gone to plan for her. We've got a really cool question in actually from Ruckus Patrick on Discord who said, is a domestic cup double enough to rescue Chelsea's season?

19:47Chloe: Well, I guess the parameters of that is rescue it in what sense for who? For Chelsea fans to consider a successful season? For players who are considering their future at Chelsea? For Sonia and her safety? Like, I think for Sonia, I think she should be okay this season. I think she should be allowed to have another kind of window and another... I'm not getting any kind of narratives around Sonia leaving or Sonia should go.

20:11Rachel: Which is great, by the way.

20:13Chloe: I don't think a League Cup and an FA Cup is necessarily going to be something where the players go, actually do you know what this is what's going to make me stay I think if a player's made up their mind they've made up their mind I think any other team would say two domestic trophies is a pretty successful season and the problem is that you know Chelsea are held to a very high standard because they're so bloody good and they've won so many trophies people now consider two domestic I mean I haven't won the FA Cup yet just putting that there you know people would say oh only two but like surely winning two trophies it's far more than any other team in the WSL is going to win this season right?

20:46Chloe: Definitely

20:46Rachel: so I think it's a weird one because like you look at like last season invincible year and like the you know the 19th millionth WSL title and all these amazing things are happening you're signing all these great you know international players and things and then you kind of you look at two trophies as like a bit of a loss like anyone else is a bit of a disappointing one I'll have them if you don't want them yeah to anyone else like you'd be like Christ what an incredible season like a historic season for the club for Chelsea it's like oh well is that all let's forget about this year Let's move on to next.

21:17Chloe: Look how empty our trophy cabinet looks this year. It's only two. Genuinely. So that's what I mean. It's kind of who are we measuring to whose standards? We're measuring to Chelsea standards. I think generally.

21:27Rachel: We're pitting Chelsea against themselves. Yeah, I think generally you should look at that and say,

21:30Chloe: yeah, two trophies is a good season, but I can understand why some people might feel differently. But also, you haven't won the FA Cup yet. So that is a tough semi-final. Manchester City. Manchester City, going into that one. Where's your head at with that? You've just been absolutely spanked at the Etihad.

21:46Rachel: Do you know what I mean? Man City for me. I just feel like they're on such a flipping... I don't know. They weren't great against Birmingham. No, but I think there's maybe some complacency stuck into that game. But I do... Yeah, Man City. But Man City, I also think the difference with them

22:01Chloe: this season is when they haven't been playing great, they've still been able to turn it into a win nine times out of ten. And I think that's been a big shift for them. Whereas in the past, it'd be a game where they'd maybe drop points. Obviously, this is the FA Cup I'm talking about. But generally, when they don't play well last season, They struggled with getting it over the line. And I think we're seeing much more this season that even if they don't play their absolute unbelievable best, which they absolutely have this season, they still get over the line. And I think that's what's going to make this an interesting game because, you know, they both want to get to Wembley.

22:33Chloe: Manchester City are having such a great season. They lost the opening game to Chelsea. Chelsea have just been, you know, battered by them at the Etihad. They've been knocked out of the Champions League. This is so important. Like, it just feels like it's a really, it's a bit like when Chelsea and Arsenal played each other we were chatting about it who is it more important for or like who is it bigger for and it's just another one of those kind of fixtures there's so much weight to it

22:55Rachel: it's a momentum shift though from City this year it's another gear for them it's like 7th gear for Man City this year I also think who's available

23:03Chloe: player wise for both teams would be key too yeah that is very fair

23:05Rachel: after the break we've got another trophy hunt to catch up with because the WSL 2 is hotting up

23:28Rachel: the WSL2 has been bloody roasted for like the last six months what have you been hearting off where have you been say it's been non-stop it feels like there's been a consistent bunch of of teams that have been kind of sitting in and around the top spots and it's made it also a lot more spicy because of obviously the format that we've got for this this one year and one year only which I'd like to see rolled out in multiple years actually I'll see how we'll see how it goes down but I think you know the WSL they do like to throw in a bit of a curveball and I could see this being a thing they do more than once what is funny is you know we've been

23:59Chloe: every week um at girls in the ball kind of doing a quick roundup of what's going on at WSL too and for so many weeks I was like Charlton remain on top with blah blah blah points x amount of points ahead of everybody else nine points ahead of everybody else so it just felt like every week Like, Charlton are still on top. And then there was a moment where Birmingham were nine points behind with two games in hand. And their last game was against Charlton. And they had a better goal difference. So then you're like, Birmingham win their two games in hand. You know, holy shit, this could go down to the last day.

24:28Chloe: Unbelievable. Who makes the calendar? How do they know that was going to happen? Like, you know, you love those moments in football. And you spot it on the calendar and you think, oh my God, it could come down to the last day. Then Birmingham lost. And you're like, right. Well, that whole nice idea that I had in my head that Birmingham were suddenly going to catch up didn't really happen. Then Charlton lost. Then Birmingham won. And you're like, okay, hang on, this gap is getting a bit closer. Then Charlton lost again and you're like, oh my God, this is like, what is happening? Birmingham won again and now Birmingham have bloody leapfrogged them.

24:55Chloe: Finally, with like three games to go, they leapfrogged them.

24:58Rachel: Exactly. So just to put a bit of detail on that, we've got Charlton Athletic and Birmingham City top on 41 points, but Crystal Palace are just three points behind them on 38 after another win this weekend. Since a 3-1 defeat at Southampton at the start of fair which left them on 22 points, nine points behind Charlton. Palace have won five and drawn one, including wins against both Birmingham City and Charlton. And then on the flip side, you've got Charlton with a 27-match unbeaten run until March when they lost three of their four games.

25:29Chloe: What a time to do that.

25:30Rachel: Literally. So there's only two match days left of the league on the 26th of April and the 2nd of May. And then you've got that Sunday, the 23rd of May playoff game, which will obviously put the team who finished third in the WSL 2 against the WSL's bottom side. So that's why it just makes for such an interesting year.

25:45Chloe: What I love as well is we keep talking about Charlton Birmingham. Oh my God, this is so exciting. Who's going to come top? Doesn't matter. They both go up. So what, do you know what I mean? Yeah, like, oh my God, who's going to be on top?

25:56Rachel: To be fair, like when we got promoted with Man United, that was the only year that they were promoting two teams. We benefited from that year because otherwise Man United stormed the whole thing. I don't know if they lost a game. Like their goal difference was like 305 or something. Lauren James was there, obviously. but it meant so much to kind of we were so happy to be runners up but I think there's an ego there's a pride to say you were winners

26:16Chloe: but in three years time no one will remember which one of you came first and which one of you came second they'll just remember that you were the two teams

26:21Rachel: that went off as a player you will because your medals will say otherwise and when you start doing podcasts and stuff and you go back in the old days we won the league look at my medal it's in my pocket all the time that time we came second it all meant to them yeah well the WSL2's top two were both in the quarter finals of the FA Cup this Easter weekend. We had Charlton Athletic losing 1-0 in extra time against Liverpool. As obviously you mentioned, as your moment of the weekend.

26:47Chloe: I thought it was interesting to see both Charlton Athletic and Birmingham. It was kind of nice to see both of them in the latter stages of the FA Cup because then we got to see kind of where they're at when it comes to WSL teams. And I thought both gave good accounts of themselves. You know, they were obviously going to be out of possession for good chunks of the game. And I think it was important for them to be able to be switched on for that kind of length of time. That's often the thing that we pull out from teams is their ability to have a game plan that they can carry through for 90 minutes.

27:23Chloe: And that's sometimes what's lacking when it comes to both fitness, physical fitness and kind of, I guess, mental fitness is to be able to carry out and sustain that kind of a game plan for 90 plus minutes in Charlton's case, 120. So I thought in that respect, both teams gave good accounts themselves for Birmingham City always going to be a really tough ask against Manchester City obviously City were missing Miedema and they made a few changes as well but whatever happens they still have this unbelievable squad Lauren Hemp, Bunny Shaw Alex Greenwood all lining up Hasegawa so it was a yeah I think both teams can be proud of the performances they put in they weren't blown away and it just gives them a bit of a confidence boost should they both progress up to WSL

28:06Rachel: when people sort of talk about the gap between the WSL2 and WSL1 and the quality and like are these teams that are coming up going to be able to fare against all these kind of like new investments and all these new players that are coming in from abroad all this like great money that's being put into the WSL1 teams and then you have results like this where Birmingham City are kind of you know they're taking the game to Man City and obviously Bunyshaw scoring that goal super super early on but it wasn't like it was that started like the onslaught of a you know which can be a danger against City goal after goal after goal after goal and you kind of get your head down And we've got a lovely question in from Ghazana Ray on Instagram, who says, impressed by Birmingham, if they're promoted, can they hope to be a middle table team?

28:41Chloe: OK, I mean, I want to manage expectations a little bit because the FA Cup is a one off game, essentially. For sure. You're not playing WSL sides week in, week out. Exactly. And, you know, you look at the stats, Charlton, Liverpool, Liverpool are 26 shots. They only had four on target. Didn't feel like 26 shots. They had 47 touches in the box, for example. Manchester City perhaps still obviously dominated but didn't create quite as many as Liverpool but they had 15 shots 4 on target Birmingham had 0 on target so you know I'm just managing expectations a little bit because playing like that against the top level side and sustaining that kind of play week in week out is hard but you would expect if a team's coming up they're going to invest they're going to invest in more bodies they're going to invest tactically, technically they'll improve it'll be a step up but it is a much better a much better I guess account than you know losing 4-5-6-0 but you know we've seen that happen in the WSL between WSL teams so agreed 100 % look you can be really pleased but I'm not going to say mid-table team straight away that's a hard thing to do you look how much money Michelle Kang has poured into London City Lionesses to get them you know to be able to compete in that that area of the table if you like so yeah are managing expectations but they're positive sides

30:01Rachel: I agree some really interesting news actually coming out of London City Lioness is just in terms of the loss at the moment I'd love to do a financial podcast and just deep dive on that a little bit more because I think everyone's kind of like oh it's alarm bells they've lost 10 million pounds or whatever it is it's the whole thing

30:15Chloe: you have to invest money and the thing is to reap the rewards but Kang is willing to invest a shit ton of money before seeing those rewards and a good chunk of that was spent on players

30:25Rachel: very deep pockets I think that's the fear that I have about teams like you said like Charleston Athletic and also Birmingham is that they don't have the backings of these massive massive Premier League outfits that have the funds kind of that that can prioritize the women's squad to the extent that you need to like a London City Lionesses with a massive like investor who really genuinely does care about women's sport or sees the value in women's sport as an investment model they don't have that so I think that's always going to be the difficulty we've seen the same thing with kind of Palace or we've seen the same thing with Bristol City when they've kind of gone up and they've not had that support and then quite quickly or years after years kind of flip-flops between WSL 1 and WSL 2.

31:00Chloe: The difference is we go back to one going down, right, next season?

31:03Rachel: Yes. So at least one of them will stay off. Someone's safe. That's nice. Birmingham City went top of the table last Wednesday after Lily Crossway scored in the 93rd minute to beat Sunderland 1-0. Interestingly, like you said, Race, it's kind of Birmingham City and Charlton matching up against each other on the last day of the season. Birmingham missed out on promotion on the final day of last season when they drew 2-2 with London City Lionesses. I remember that very, very clearly. Do you know that goal? Good one. Silly. Very, very silly. And she's continued in the same breath this season. Yeah, it kind of feels like this is a very interesting time for both clubs.

31:40Rachel: But a really interesting time in the sense that they'll probably both get promoted. Yeah, I mean, just keep an eye there on Crystal Palace. Coming in hot? No, no, I do see them. I definitely do see them.

31:51Chloe: What was really interesting was, I think it was last weekend, where the top four, top five all played each other. That was quite an interesting weekend. And I think there are a few little games. Obviously, the Charlton-Birmingham left, which will be super interesting on the final weekend. Crystal Palace play Portsmouth, who are bottom, and they play Sunderland. So Birmingham have Ipswich, I believe, who are in and around the bottom along with Portsmouth. So that's the next game coming up, which will be interesting. and Charlton are away to Southampton. So yeah, it is definitely one to watch in terms of who will get first and second, but equally can Crystal Palace catch up because they are now only three points behind as well.

32:34Chloe: So whoever essentially, if someone loses between Charlton and Birmingham and Crystal Palace keep winning, they can arguably leapfrog because they have got an equal goal difference to Charlton. So it could be very interesting.

32:47Rachel: I'm just trying to rain man this one up, you know, like you've got someone who's like, the numbers. Zach Galf, what's his name?

32:53Chloe: is that Gaffalacanis or whatever it is yeah

32:55Rachel: and I was trying to sit and think what are the permutations here between the WSL I've got WSL table and WSL 2 table on my laptop and I'm thinking okay Crystal Palace you're on an amazing run of form to be fair four wins in five for the last five games but someone will

33:08Chloe: there's going to be points dropped between Birmingham and Charlton because they play each other 100 % so if one of them loses if Charlton for example lose to Birmingham yep Crystal Palace and they keep winning they could leapfrog Charlton on goal difference I believe.

33:23Rachel: What does look almost fairly certain It's them three. is that it will be probably Leicester City who will play the third place team in the WSL 2. That's really tough.

33:35Chloe: And what I think is interesting is Leicester are going to have to play away. Sorry, whoever is bottom will have to play away. But there's also like a really big gap between the last game in WSL 2 and that playoff. There's like nearly three weeks. Yeah. Who does that benefit? I'd say WSL too yeah because you're not looking at both ways you're out of sync you know you've had three weeks off they won't have three weeks off no but it's like having an international break do you know what I mean like when you come back you're ready you're on it if you have any fitness issues benefits them

34:04Rachel: you'd be sorting out friendlies left right and centre you would be absolutely the training ground like knowing how much money and investment it means for the squad to make it into the WSL you would be absolutely gunning hell for leather and what it would mean to you as a player in this like once in a lifetime opportunity to get that space and like you said for like next season to kind of be a little bit of a win where there's only one club going down What's interesting is

34:28Chloe: because Crystal Palace are now three points off both Birmingham and Charlton essentially no one's really safe from a playoff No Like everyone wants to just get through with having to think about playoff and before you were thinking okay it's between whoever comes first and second and then whoever gets the playoff position that there was enough of a gap you didn't need need to kind of worry about that. Now, any of them can end up essentially in the playoff spot.

34:53Rachel: The interesting thing is that Crystal Palace, because they're the most recent dropouts from the WSL, maybe Crystal Palace would be best placed to play a Leicester if that was what happened. But there's a guarantee that Crystal Palace are going to be in that space.

35:07Chloe: Realistically, Birmingham are either going to finish first or second. So I feel like it's between Charlton and Palace

35:11Rachel: for that playoff spot. All right. Well, Charlton have been saying some very big things. Karen Hills my former boss said to the BBC recently that there's a lot of work going on behind the scenes to make us WSL ready I hope so you have to at this stage you know as soon as you find out if you're in the WSL I remember it at Spurs there was we quite late in the day kind of appreciated that we probably could be one of the two teams who would be going and there was panic because like it was quite close between I can't even remember what team it was it was below us but we already knew Man United kind of won it but it was quite late in the day before we realized actually we've got a really good chance of doing this two games before the end of the season and i remember internally everyone was like christ what does this mean the fear also as a player that you have going into the wsl because you're thinking okay well i've done this momentous thing but i actually might not even be a part of the journey in the wsl i still gotta wait to see if i've got a wsl contract it's been like a lot of lunatic lionesses yeah it was correct i remember like i i it was my it was i think it was my dad's 60th i was on holiday at the time when karen juan um rang me and said oh you're in the squad but i remember i could not enjoy the holiday at all I was like I don't know whether I will be a part of the club or not I also I was a lawyer at the time just to kind of add some more context to this and I had to hand my notice in my three-month notice but say actually can you let me go in three weeks time I'm just going to finish up these cases and start full-time football but there's so much I mean obviously it's a very different space now because everyone's full-time but there's there's just so much kind of like anxiety that is around these moments like you're working towards creating history but you don't know if you're going to be a part of it for some of these teams or some of these players so yeah it's it's crazy but interesting to see obviously Charlton are you know they've obviously been in this 20 match 27 match unbeaten run until March they've had a really good run of form very consistent what a time to just trip up and start losing games but I think it's that it does feel like just at the final hurdle have you kind of just literally

36:59Chloe: fallen over the hurdle yeah I've been getting served on TikTok these videos of people in races who celebrate too early I'm not suggesting Charlton celebrated too early of course yeah but there's so many clips of just people like they've grabbed their flag or like they've slowed down and put their arms in the air and then somebody just goes yeah it overtakes them on

37:17Rachel: the line literally that um so yeah thoughts and prayers for everyone involved in this uh this last three battle um but definitely have a look at the wsl2 for the next couple of weeks because well when it starts again back on the 26th of april um yeah because it just feels like this is like the spiciest i mean we've already mancy everybody wraps it up all right let's focus our attention on WSL2. After the break, England return and of course, they're playing Bloody Spain.

37:49Rachel: Right. We're changing hats again, Rach. We're now on one off. We're on international duty now. It's the three week. You need to work on those accents. It's a three week international window. So it's not until Tuesday, April 14th, that we'll see the Lionesses in action. They're taking on Spain at Wembley and including the return leg in Spain in June this is basically a straight shootout for automatic qualification for the World Cup next summer well that's just assuming

38:17Chloe: that both Spain and England will win the rest of their games come on now other things could happen they could someone could lose to Iceland like I said

38:25Rachel: it's a straight shootout for automatic qualification for the World Cup next summer trying to inject a bit of jeopardy no this is England's first meeting with Spain since the final of the Euros since their last meeting with Spain yes can we just like

38:36Chloe: copy and paste the last time we talked about England facing Spain because we've done it about a hundred times.

38:40Rachel: Yeah, and I could relive that moment a thousand times more, to be honest. I don't know if you remember it. The Lioness has won that dramatic penalty shootout to kind of claim back-to-back European titles. Rings a bell. Does it? Wow. Rings a bell. There's been a slight change, I suppose, in management. So Spain sacked Monsi Tome last August after the Euros with former under-23 coach Sonia Bermudez stepping in to replace her. they've since won the Nations League of course beating Germany 3-0 in the second leg back in December to lift the trophy I feel like there's ego on the line, every time they go to battle it feels like Titan versus Titan, it's like Goliath versus Goliath when these two meet and I love the fact that it's obviously going to be taking place at Wembo, it kind of feels like a little bit of a fortress I suppose for England, England have won seven including one on penalties and drawn two of their 10 games at Wembley since 2021, including a 1-0 win over Spain in the Nations League back in Feb 2025.

39:42Rachel: Spain haven't managed to beat England there in the Wigman era. It's the perfect stage for this kind of matchup. 100%. And I'm assuming we're both going to be there. We might even cover the game. I don't know. You know, I'm not saying I feel jealous because, you know, Soph was able to step in for the last game. But also, like, I just don't want you to forget that I'm also, like, still here. I'm still the third wheel. I'm still the third wheel, mate. so don't forget about me. I think it's going to be an amazing matchup. We've obviously just received in some breaking news as well about some of the updates for the team squad, for the England squad, sorry.

40:14Rachel: So Frere Godfrey has been withdrawn from the squad with a shoulder injury. Kira Barry and Niamh Charles have been called up. Congrats, Kira Barry. Yeah, I feel like there's a couple of newbies now making their debuts into the squad but yet to see them on the pitch. I'm looking forward to this. Kira Barry is getting her first senior call-up. She's currently at Bay FC. Niamh Charles returned to action at the end of last month after a shoulder injury too so yeah it kind of feels like another exciting addition

40:40Chloe: it's so weird for a coach that never makes any rotations or gives any young players a chance apparently I love that war narrative really really lovely super exciting, really really pleased for her really important just to get in and amongst that senior squad and you might not see minutes straight away people expect sometimes the young players to come in and just immediately get on the pitch and I don't think appreciate the importance of the experience within camp and the setup and yes you've got the under 23s and it makes that that step across maybe less big and there's a bit more of a kind of consistency across camps and stuff but essentially you need that experience just in and around the senior camp um before you start you know stepping on and what I like about Beegman is when she puts you on the pitch it's not because she's giving you like oh we're 7-0 up I'll give you some like a pity debut or something like that she thinks that you are going to add value to the game and I think so when players get brought on you think Michelle Adjumang against Belgium like she basically I feel like a future no but if you're a player you can say do you know what the coach really thinks I'm going to go out and make an impact and that must give you such kind of confidence going on so I think when when players get their moment it's because they're going to you know really make an impact on that game which

41:52Rachel: I think is cool definitely I mean similar thing also for a 17 year old Erica Meg Parkinson getting her first senior call up as well. I think a lot of that obviously comes from kind of this midfield area where I think it's going to cause Serena a little bit of a headache. We've got a couple of injuries in this area, including Grace Clinton, Aggie Beaver-Jones. It kind of feels like it's leaving that area a little bit depleted. Who do we think is kind of going to get in and around the squad? I mean, who do we think is going to start essentially in this game? Because you've obviously got Leah Williamson fitnessed out as well.

42:22Rachel: She's kind of including the squad, but has missed Arsenal's last three games. Yeah, that's an interesting one. Yeah, and like, you know, people are raging that she's been called up when she didn't play for Arsenal.

42:33Chloe: I mean, she's the England captain. She was training with Arsenal. So there's obviously like, I guess they're managing her minutes, managing how many minutes she can have when the kind of wider impact it might have. I can understand where a player might be really, really, really close to coming back. And a game just might be one game too soon, for example. You know, I think back to Ella Morris when they played Arsenal. there was you know talks about maybe she's going to be available wasn't included in the squad came on against Chelsea so there could be a situation where Leah Williamson is super close to being available and is likely going to have recovered enough once it comes to the England squad she might just be in training obviously an important leader and voice in that in the camp as well um again something I don't think people put a lot of value on but is really important particularly when you're coming up against Spain like you need your experienced heads in and around the group who have played against them before.

43:25Chloe: So, yeah. And as you say, a couple of newbies. I don't think necessarily we'll see too many debuts against Spain, potentially against Iceland later in that game. But I expect she's going to be putting out the absolute strongest XI she can.

43:39Rachel: Yeah, well, I was having a look over the previous starting XI for the Iceland game. So we had Bronze Williamson, Morgan, Hines at the back. And then midfield was Park Walsh and Stamway. I mean obviously I mean Bar-Williamson pretty much every single one of those is still fit and ready same thing again with your front three with Hemp-Russo and James so I don't think there'll be that much of a change up I don't think from that squad like you need your strongest and I feel like that's your strongest surely Bar-Williamson maybe

44:10Chloe: if we look at say when England played Spain in the Euros final and how many potential changes there can be so they started with Hampton, Bronze Williamson, Carter, Alex Greenwood Ella Toon, Keira Walsh, Georgia Stanway, Lauren Hemp Russo and James and I think obviously Williamson we're not sure on Toon isn't available you know I think the back line is going to be super interesting, that was what kind of caused the most discussion points during the Euros at times and obviously there's been a few games since then so that back line, who would potentially replace Leah Williamson, which pairing is she going to go with, could be super interesting yeah I mean it's intriguing but I do expect you know I imagine she'll probably start Russo up front with the L squared either side of her probably

44:56Rachel: I would say so the Laurence yeah yeah I'm excited let us know what you think about that I don't think there's going to be too much change from the previous starting just be interesting to see like you said Rachel on the back line there on Spain's side obviously no Bon Matty for Spain who fractured her fibula back in November and had surgery in December I think she's back training or pitch base running Barcelona at the moment but obviously not likely to feature either. Yeah, it's going to be a really interesting... Yeah, give us your score predictions, Rach. What are you saying?

45:27Chloe: I know it's a little bit early. No, but I also just hate score predictions because... Go on. You go first.

45:35Chloe: I asked you first. I asked you second. And that's our opinion, guys. So let us know in the comments what score you think it's going to be. It's so funny how you can take a Bon Mati out of that squad and still be like, They're terrifying.

45:48Rachel: Literally, I was just thinking that. I was like, it's barely even worth mentioning that you've got a three-time Ballon d 'Or winner out because the rest of them... Oh, shit. Oh, God. What I would say also, so I was Googling some facts on this game. So it's the Lioness' 499th cap... Against Spain. No way, that's what it feels like. They've played that many times. 499th match in their history. The 500th game will be to follow against Iceland on April 18th in Reykjavik. I'll be there. Yeah, so it's obviously a very special moment for the squad.

46:19Chloe: Imagine looking at that going, if we had just fit one extra fixture in, our 500th game could have been at Wembley against Spain. That would be huge. Instead of like, oh my God, we're coming. When is it? Oh, it's away.

46:33Rachel: But no, I'm really looking forward to that game, mate. And I will see you there. Do you know, I might even try and do it in a normal seat, you know? I doubt that very much. I doubt that too. But I will see you at least at Wembley Box Park. Wave down to me.

46:42Chloe: I'll be down pitch side with my camera.

46:44Rachel: I won't know it's when you are. I'll have to point you out.

46:47Chloe: I have a yellow cover on one of my cameras and that is how people spot me, apparently.

46:52Rachel: Yep, 100%, mate. Instead of looking at the actual game, instead of seeing two of the best teams in Europe compete against each other, I'll just be watching out for your camera. 100%. Definitely do that. What a waste of a ticket. Thank you so much for listening to Upfront. Just a quick one for next week's episode. We'll be recording on Wednesday so that we can come to you with all of the amazing action from the game on Tuesday.

47:16Chloe: so that we have something to talk about.

47:17Rachel: Yeah, otherwise we're a little bit lost for words, actually. Me and Rach can't just see each other and look at each other in the studio for an hour. We're getting a fight. So yeah, make sure you catch us on Wednesday instead. Find us on Instagram and x slash Twitter. I'm at morgy underscore 89. Rach is at girls in the ball and we are at Upfront Pod. You can also find us on YouTube at Upfront Pod. See you on Wednesday.

47:53Rachel: Upfront is a Stack production and part of the Acast Creator Network.