England march through and the Dutch puppet show ends | Euro 2025 #7

0:16Rachel: Welcome to Upfront. I'm Chloe Morgan. And I'm Rachel O'Sullivan. England are through to the knockouts. They sent Wales home with a 6-1 thrashing and now Sweden await them in the next round. we obviously discuss that game. England's free-flowing attack and look back at Wales' first ever major tournament. Plus, France beat Netherlands in a absolute humdinger in Basel to top Group D. Gosh, I said to you the night before, Rach, like how this podcast could go one or two ways, how we're either going to be in this insufferable silence, this doom and gloom, this kind of cloud of negativity, and yet we're sat here in this glorious little booth.

0:59Rachel: I'm in Farrington, you're in Switzerland, celebrating the fact that England have progressed. Despite a very shaky start in that first game, we didn't know that it was far from being a given in those early couple of days in the tournament. So how are we feeling, Rach, just first off, before we even get stuck into the performance? I mean, talk me through the elation of being in Switzerland with the Lionesses in the quarterfinals. Yeah, it's great, a weight off, you know, coming into the tournament knowing England were in the group of death how difficult it was going to be you know if you told me that England would score 11 goals in this group you would assume that they would top it but no France equally That's not enough anymore No I think France also scored 11 goals yeah the fact that they've gotten out of the group especially after the first performance yeah I think people will be pleased especially the nature of both wins and just from like a coverage point of view it's so much more enjoyable when it's not doom and gloom negative kind of hyperbole kind of overreaction so I'm very pleased that at least they're through to the quarterfinals at least the quarterfinals they've got that far rather than we can look at that rather than think beyond the quarterfinals I think it's that we're not sitting here today thinking about the post-mortem and what went wrong and how we pick ourselves up from this and how devastating it would be to see a champion then knocked out in the groups none of those narratives exist which thank God it could have been an alternate universe but it was such a delight I think to see such consistency across the last two games we're obviously going to get onto the games in a second but I've got to admit like it it just felt like there was a an energy to last night I was out at um She's a Baller's Watch party we had a lovely time like loads of people came down food and drinks and stuff and like there was just like this buzz and this energy and this atmosphere and like it was so nice to just be a part of like I obviously I feel absolutely gutted that I'm not in Switzerland, but I think there's so many different occasions taking place.

2:52Rachel: There's so many watch parties across London that are taking place to bring people together for these moments. And I think where we've had this dramatic down and then up and then, oh, God, we have to... This kind of jeopardy in the last game. It's kind of created that buzz that fans want to turn out to go and see these games and watch it with other people. So I would say I think the atmosphere has definitely picked up in London. But, yeah, I'd give anything to be where you guys are. Something I noticed as well, You speak about kind of the positive kind of collaborative nature of things, I guess, and what you're doing back in London and the rest of England.

3:25But it just made me think of like, you know, all of this talk pre-tournament about how the absence of players, of certain players was going to impact the camp. You know, was there a little bit of unrest? Was there unhappiness with players not starting? Like there was this kind of narrative being pulled from the news that had come out pre-tournament. and I noticed yesterday because I was there early and I was sat up in the press box for a little while because the stupid fucking plugs in Switzerland are the most annoying things and they use these like extension cables in the press room that nobody can fit anything in unless you've got a really specific plug so I was in the press box with Sophie having a lovely kind of view of the pitch and I watched as all the players came out to do their little pre-match and she said, oh yeah, that's what the pitch looks like and that's what the stands look like and that's what the grass feels like even though I was here yesterday.

4:14Did you get visualisations? Yeah, oh yeah. Actually, it was Chloe Kelly broke away at one point and she was just kind of standing in the box looking at the goal and I leaned over to Sophie and I was like, that's visualisation right there. That's her like imagining herself in those moments. But what I loved was that the whole England, the England group that came out were just all together. You know, there weren't like little groups over there, little groups. When they all first came out, they were all together, standing together, chatting, like pointing stuff out to each other. They took their phones out.

4:41They were having some photos taken together. It was a real like nice camaraderie. And I really noticed that last night when the subs scored. There's obviously this new thing where they click their fingers when someone scores. But when the subs scored, both times they went over to the bench, the bench exploded for them, even though it was five and six. And, you know, it was a lovely moment, particularly with Beth Mead running to the bench. And Michelle Adjumang looked the happiest person in the whole stadium that Beth had scored and like picked her up. And like that was really lovely to see because it just shows you how everyone on the bench is feeling, right?

5:15It just reminded me of Euro 2022 and everyone was like, right, I know what my role is. I might not get loads of minutes. And to be fair, quite a few players have gotten minutes. Might not be loads, but they have gotten minutes, which is great. That's what I was going to say.

5:26Rachel: I think there's only a handful of players who haven't had at least a couple of minutes on the pitch, yeah? But I just really, I thought that was really nice, that kind of collective camaraderie. And, you know, it sounds like a bit like basic to say, but they all seem to really like each other and really want to do well together as a collective. And I think that's actually not always the case in every team. So that was a really nice thing to see when you're winning comfortably and still every goal matters and everyone celebrates every goal with that kind of vigour. I think it's a really good sign as you're going into the knockout stages.

6:00Rachel: I think that's really lovely to hear. Because obviously we don't get a lot of the coverage of the players walking out before to get adjusted to the pitch, do their visualisations, to just be there in the ground before all the hype and the fans arrive. And I think, you know, we had flagged, I think, after the initial defeat against France. I mean, one of the things that I did see was an England squad looking a little bit isolated, looking a bit dejected. And I think, yeah, I did have a little bit of a concern that maybe there was these kind of, I don't know, fractions. But I think that was just me kind of like almost dramatising because they'd lost.

6:30Rachel: Over analysing. Yeah, I was just like, OK, well, does this mean this? And does this mean this? But actually, it's like, Chloe, like, calm the fuck down. Everyone's fine. They spoke about that. Actually, in the post-match, they spoke about that loss and how it, you know, I think it was maybe Kieran, even Beth, who said, you know, we almost kind of needed that, like to just give us a kick, to have the difficult conversations, to really come together and galvanize and be like, okay, this job just got an awful lot harder and we need to really be on the same wavelength if we're going to achieve what we want to achieve.

6:57So, yeah, I thought, you know, you're right. Maybe there was that little bit of understandable discontent after an unexplainable, not unexplainable, but like an unusual loss in that everyone just played really bad. To now seeing that, and I think that's quite important going into, you know, the next game. All these games have been hard. It's not going to get any fecking easier.

7:18Rachel: Well, I think that's the kind of making of the champions though, isn't it? That you're not going to have a completely perfect tournament. you are going to have blips everyone has them um you guys have moments of error you're going to have moments of individual error and also just general team errors and I think that's the kind of whether you can override those whether you can switch off the noise around it whether you can kind of tune into what's in front of you and just take that next step ahead that's I suppose the kind of making of you know being successful in a major tournament but it makes sense right to probably stick like get stuck into what actually happened last night because it was by all accounts the I think it was just a very consistently confident assured uh performance that i think we absolutely all needed i mean scoring within the first 13 minutes um was exactly what we needed to kind of kind of alleviate any fears that this could be like a complete bogey gate that this was going to be like any kind of tournament upset was going to happen from this right as you kind of mentioned how much hype there was from the wells camp about you know the disruption they could potentially cause england and how they were going to upset the apple cart and what did you make of those first kind of 10-15 minutes I think possibly there was a little bit of looseness with England but I think generally speaking I can't really fault the entire 90 minutes.

8:32Yeah look it was a little bit cagey in the beginning which is understandable and I'm not going to say because it's a derby it's because it was a game England had to win and they'd played badly in the first game and it was a must-win game so it was understandably a little bit cagey and you know I thought Wales did well of the opening 10-15 to kind of manage England a little bit, you know. We started to wonder whether England would struggle to pick them apart and find those spaces and those gaps. And actually, that wasn't really a problem at all for England, I didn't think. Maybe in the opening 10, it was.

9:04You know, there were definitely some tackles going in during the game. There was a couple on Georgia Stanway very early on. I think she had a tough night of it on the pitch. I just kept seeing her being upended on the ground. It was definitely physical. Yeah, hopefully she didn't have too many bruises today. And my God, that shiner on poor Lauren James' face looks terribly sore. Really come out, yeah. Another player who just looked like she was really enjoying her football, which is just really nice to see when you see players playing with a smile on their face. Even if they miss a goal, LJ's just like, it's cool, I'm going to get another one.

9:37Like, I'm going to get another goal. She's too cool. I'm going to set up another goal. Yeah. And actually, you kind of want that. Like, you want players not to be, to overanalyze any misses or whatever. when you have the confidence to know, it's cool, you're going to get another shot. Yeah, I just thought that England were causing Wales a lot of problems and Wales were defending well initially. I think Russo probably could have had a hat trick. But yeah, I was very impressed. Once that first opening goal came, it reminded me a bit of Norway. It was like it took the weight off and they're like, okay, we're away now, we can crack on.

10:12Rachel: Well, let's definitely talk about that first goal because it did come with a bit of controversy. So obviously, Georgia Stanway goes down on the edge of the box. It looks like her ankle is just slightly clipped. But the replays, I mean, I've gone over this a couple of different times from a couple of different angles. To me, I'm not entirely convinced it was a penalty. I mean, Rach, what was your take on it? What would you do if you were the ref? Because, yeah, I'm not convinced it was, really. I think the issue was she'd given the free outside the box and VAR intervened, as it so often does. And the clear and obvious error was that it was inside the box, not outside the box.

10:53So because she'd given the free, the error was the location of where that free should be taken. Do you know what I mean? So VAR almost overruled, rather saying, interrogating, was it maybe? Like it was one of those kind of ones that like one person could say, oh yeah, if that was anywhere else in the pitch, I probably would have given a free. And others would say that was too soft to give a penalty. And I kind of feel like VAR just intervened and said, you got the location wrong and that's the clear and obvious error. So actually that free that you've given should be inside, not outside. And I think that's potentially where the VAR decision came in as opposed to was it or wasn't it.

11:29I always get confused about VAR and what it can and can't do. And I sometimes get confused about what's clear and obvious. And I find that really frustrating. And I think when we're looking at fucking toenails and shoelaces and whether someone's offside or not, you're like, is this really what it's come in for?

11:43Rachel: We've seen so many body parts on that VAR reconstruction where they've got the white line going across. Yeah, like you said, we've got a nose in it, an elbow, everything in between. Can you score with your boob? Maybe. Yep, that nipple is definitely offside. Does that give you an advantage? Look, I can understand the frustration behind it, but equally, I saw people saying she dived and I saw people saying it was outside. And I saw people saying all the kind of reasons people were giving, there was no kind of consensus as to why it shouldn't be a penalty. So, yeah, I can understand the frustration.

12:14And funnily enough, that's exactly what happened against Norway as well. Ellen White penalty and some said that was too soft to give. You know, didn't really matter in the end. They scored five more goals. I think my personal take is that I think it was a little bit soft.

12:28Rachel: I don't think Georgia Stanway dived, but I don't think it... Yeah, for me, it wasn't a penalty. I do think it probably was a different position. Tell you what, if that's been the other end, the Welsh fans would be looking for that and so would the Welsh team. 100 % all day and when you look at the wider context it didn't really matter it wasn't a 2-1 game it wasn't a 1-0 game like let's not get carried away that this was it's not the reason Wales lost 100 % it had absolutely no bearing on the game essentially just being the opener also we've got to give a massive massive shout out to Ella Toon she's been absolutely incredible I think in every single game I think this tournament I mean she's the one that everyone's talking about LJ's the one that everyone's talking about I think them two in particular have had absolute stormers so far so she became the first player on record so that's since 2013 just got a goal provide an assist and complete 100 % of passes in a single Euros match she's kind of like dropped into that obviously the number 10 position leaving sort of LJ to kind of drift further upfield and do her own thing and kind of have that creativity and that kind of I think freedom I think to express herself but yeah how much have you kind of enjoyed watching Ella T and kind of I don't know I wouldn't even say grow into the competition, just take the competition by storm, just from the outset.

13:43Yeah, and it's something she spoke about post-match and she's kind of said, like, I've missed this Ella Toon, I've missed playing like this and how much she's enjoying her football. And I think that tactical switch of moving LJ to the right and retaining LJ's place in the team and her creativity and what she offers and shoring up a little bit more in that midfield has been really important. And I think Ella Toon offers that robustness and we can see what she can do going forward. She scores goals, but what she does defensively as well and the cover she provides to the other midfielders is really, really important.

14:17And I think we were seeing in the previous games Keira Walsh being kind of shifting to the right sometimes, almost feeling like she was in her right wing era. I keep seeing Keira Walsh an awful lot more up the pitch than I'm used to. Let's definitely rephrase that.

14:28Rachel: We can't call it a right wing era.

14:30Chloe: Oh, sorry. Her right winger era, right forward era. No, but you know what I mean? Like she's, and I noticed that I think in the game last night, Ella Toon maybe took up that role a little bit more. And I just think both Kira Walsh and Georgia Stanway spoke about Ella Toon in the mix zone yesterday and the importance she's played in supporting them in the midfield role and the cover she gives and the physicality she gives. And they spoke about not just what she does going forward. And I think sometimes it's very easy to just look at what players do on the ball and judge them only and solely on that.

15:06Chloe: And I think we've talked about that with Alessi Russo. What players do off the ball is almost as important. The space they create, the runs they stop, the tackles they make, the spaces they take up to prevent an opposition being able to use that space is equally important. and it kind of dictates how the opposition maybe plays. So Elitoune has played a very important role in that in the last two games. And I appreciate, you know, the Netherlands and Wales have been different games to France, but the area that France dominated, apart from that right side of the pitch, up the front of the pitch where the forward right players play, they also dominated the midfield.

15:42Chloe: And I think having a creative player like LJ still allowed to roam, but up on the right side of the pitch. God, now I'm super conscious of saying right wing. up on the right side of the pitch, you still benefit from her creativity, her freedom. She's allowed to express herself, but that central midfield area is still very much kind of in control and, you know, solid, if you know what I mean, as opposed to going, oh God, there's a gap. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, wonderful to see. Brilliant game. For me, she was a player of the match for me, but that was given to Keira Walsh. But I'm not going to get into controversial player of the match conversations.

16:18Chloe: I thought many players, just like the last game, many players could have been player of the match and had very, very good games. So that's always a good sign.

16:27Rachel: Well, let's definitely talk about Ella's bestie, Russo, as well, because I think she's another one who's kind of taken the competition by storm. I think she was kind of frustrated in the France game. But then the second game, you know, getting those three assists, getting that player of the match, then coming into this game, again, incredible performance. And like you said, her work rate off the ball. I mean, it's sometimes hard to see. I think when you're watching the game at home and obviously the entire camera focus is going to be on like what's, you know, where the ball is and what's being played in front of you.

16:52Rachel: But you don't see those kind of runs in behind. You don't see that kind of tracking back. You don't see like the little work sort of those massive bits of those significant things that players are doing off the ball to kind of create those chances and make sure they're in the right place at the right time. But Russo, I think, has been, it was such a lovely moment, I think, for her last night to kind of get her goal because it kind of felt like she really wanted, like it was like the bars around it, the atmosphere. And I think she, you could tell how much it meant to her and how much she wanted it because I think she'd been so hungry for it the entire competition.

17:22Chloe: Yeah, look, I think one of the reasons the goals have been quite spread out, you know, and last night I believe there were six different goal scorers, right? and three in the last game. One of the reasons they've been spread out is because teams focus on Russo and she draws away a lot of defenders in key moments. And I do think Wales did well early on to kind of marshal her, be on top of her. And anytime the ball did come into her, she basically had a Welsh player like glued to her. So I think for me, I think she actually could have done a bit better last night. I think she could have scored more.

17:51Chloe: And I think that will only serve to kind of fire her up a little bit. I'm glad she got a goal because she deserved one. But it's understandable that, you know, she'd be frustrated because literally Wales were kind of all over her. But that's also the role of a number nine sometimes, is to draw the attention, to draw the defenders and to take the focus and leave the gaps for someone else to come in and bury it.

18:13Rachel: I think with Russo, I always get a little bit worried where she doesn't score. She creates so many assists, she creates so many chances for other people. It's like always the bridesmaid and never the bride. But I think in that moment, it kind of felt like, I mean, she scored in the 44th minute. and it felt like then not necessarily the floodgates were going to rape him but it kind of felt like that weight off her shoulders in a way that she was going to not be stuck with this tournament where she kind of did everything but score so yeah super super happy for her and there was so much weight and so much expectation going into this tournament for her I mean she's been all over every Adi billboard it's her face to face with Aitana Bonmatti and these kind of big campaigns of them two going head to head and it just felt like actually given how well Bonmatti's done given how well Spain had done And it kind of felt like, you know, Sheena did that moment as well.

18:59Rachel: So, yeah, really congratulations to her because I think that that was obviously a huge moment for her. We've got to talk about, and I know we touched on it at the start of the pod, the subs that came on. Serena made really big use of the subs and has done pretty much throughout the entire tournament, which a lot of people are kind of saying, you know, it's a complete, I don't know, reshift, a revamp of the Serena that we all know from the Euros. But we've seen, you know, since then, I mean, that was three years ago, we've seen Serena progress and do a mixed teams up and kind of not stick with the same starting XI for long periods of time.

19:27Rachel: She's had to have that variation. And we're in a completely different space than we were three years ago. But it's been so lovely to kind of see the use that she's made of the subs coming on and also giving those chances there. And having that trust in a lot of the younger players, your Aggie Beaver-Jones, your Jess Parks, your Michelle Adjeman coming on. So, yeah, I mean, how lovely has it been to kind of see the crowd reaction to some of these players getting their first Euros minutes? Because it's such a special time.

19:53Chloe: Yeah, it's great. And, you know, I think when you're going into like future games and you've made it to the knockout stages and we're going to come to Sweden, but it was something I thought a little bit about some of the decisions Sweden made in terms of the players used is that players need minutes as well. they need a little bit of confidence if they're going into knockout stages and to be able to in the group of death be able to get so many players in and even have minutes even if it's like even if it's Michelle Adjimang we all thought maybe she should have come on a bit earlier even if it's that the fact that she's got those minutes and the first start done and out of the way is not something she has to worry about again so the next time she comes on it might not feel like a big deal not that I actually think that phase is Michelle Adjimang I feel like she's so laser focused and knows exactly what her job is Yeah, I like the fact that she brought on substitutes at halftime.

20:42Chloe: I thought that was really good. I thought both substitutes played well. And yeah, and Aikki Beaver-Jones getting a good chunk of time, you know, getting a goal. So yeah, I think it's really important to have players come on and not just come on, but actually do a job and feel like they've impacted the game as well. I think it's quite important when you're going into the knockout stage.

21:00Rachel: I was going to say, and it did feel like the impact was almost immediate. I mean, Beth Mead obviously getting the goal, Aikki Beaver-Jones getting her goal as well. Obviously a big moment for her. I think Aggie Beaver-Jones obviously getting that moment, but she was said actually that she'd been keeping a memory book of all of her photographs from the camp, which is super, super cute. Because I suppose like nothing's ever guaranteed, is it? And I suppose when you're such a young player to have like such an incredible memory, you know, being around the players for the first time, getting your first minutes, getting your first goal in that environment is absolutely huge.

21:30Rachel: So, yeah, I think it was just, yeah, having Serena, I suppose, have that trust and belief in the players that she has, and especially those youngsters as well. It's kind of, I don't know if they're going to be called across. Like, if you've got two weeks left of the tournament, you don't know how far you're going to progress at the moment. So you kind of need to ensure that those players are kind of, I don't know, getting those initial nerves out of the way, getting that first game out of the way.

21:49Chloe: I don't believe Michelle Adjeman would have been in the game plan for the France game. Do you reckon? No, I don't think she probably would have been. I don't think they expected the France game to go the way it did. so for Serena Vigman to be able to turn around and go I trust you can go in there and do a job as the youngest player in the team in your first like senior major tournament like I believe that you can go I trust in you and I think that's really important so those kind of things are important for the players as well just to know that you've got your managers backing I think that's yeah pretty cool

22:18Rachel: definitely it'll be interesting to see how they start up against Sweden in the next round but we're not going to talk about that just yet we're not going to talk about it just yet right let's talk a little bit about Wales then And Halle's Kane was a nice consolation. The goal was a nice consolation for Wales in the end, but they struggled in this group, obviously not picking up any points, but have been obviously moments of positivity. You know, Jess Fischler getting that first goal, you know, putting a fair, decent game to France in the second game for them as well. But yeah, and they were in the group of death.

22:48Rachel: It was always going to be a big ask for them to make it out of the group stages. Yeah, I think they've ticked off some of the things they would have wanted to tick off.

22:56Chloe: you know when I look at say like a Poland who I think were ranked lowest they got goals and points which I think was huge and probably unexpected for them and I think would have been a very tough ask for Wales to do that in this group so I think to score against France and to score against England are real positives for them and for the Welsh fans to have that moment last night as well was lovely because they've travelled over and made themselves known and made themselves loud and I know that's been a huge driver of the Welsh team. So on the pitch, maybe not the best experience, but there have been moments and I think they'll very fondly look back at their first ever major tournament.

23:36Chloe: You only have your first tournament once and it's not always going to be perfect, especially when it's your first tournament. You know it's going to be a grind. So I think, yeah, they'll very much focus on the positives and hopefully this will be a nice spark for Welsh football as well. and we see more and more girls getting into it. That's the ultimate goal, so that we see Wales at major tournaments more often.

23:58Rachel: Definitely. We've seen some very lovely narratives around it and we've had, even at the sort of watch parties that I've been to in and around London, we've had quite a large subsection of Wales fans as well. Loads of people flying the Wales flag, getting involved in going to see the games and yeah, that's been really lovely to kind of see that excitement in the fan base too. The future's a little bit uncertain with Jess Fislock. She said she's not made a decision on whether to retire from international football. Bit of an unusual one kind of in terms of not making a call. You kind of expect that maybe, you know, a player like her would probably say after the Euros, that's going to be my kind of swan song, my final, you know, what a moment to end on as well, sort of scoring Wales' first goal in a Euros.

24:41Rachel: But what do we think is going to be the sort of deciding factor? Why do we think that they're so, she's not made that call yet?

24:47Chloe: Well, I think she probably doesn't want the narrative of Wales' first tournament to be about her retiring. I think she'd quite like the team to bask in the, you know, pride that the country feel for them coming to their first ever major tournament. And I think she'll probably want to allow them to experience that first when they go home and not make it about her. I also imagine she'd like control over that situation and decision. And I imagine she might quite like to do it with a final game in Wales. And, you know, I know for, say, fans of teams, there's nothing worse than finding out a player's leaving after they play their last game and you don't get that opportunity to say goodbye or for them to have a farewell.

25:27So I imagine she just wants a little bit more control over that situation and that decision. And she doesn't want to make it from an emotional standpoint. This is probably one of the highlights of her career. I imagine getting to a major tournament with Wales, but I'd say she'd like to get home, let the emotions die down and then be a bit more clear headed when she makes that decision.

25:44Rachel: Coming up after this, a dramatic battle between the Netherlands and France.

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26:37Rachel: Well, Rach, the second game in Group D happening at the same time as the England game. France blew the Dutch away in the second half to finish top of Group D with nine points. Always going to be a bit of a difficult one for the Netherlands, who with England beating Wales needed a four goal margin of victory in order to progress. They went into the second half 2-1 up, but were vulnerable as they chased those two extra goals. Yeah, this was so they kept switching the Lionesses game and then kind of thrown over to what was happening in the Netherlands. France game and it was sort of it was very balanced that it was unbalanced that it was balanced and people were trying to at the same time figure out what would happen okay if we ended the game like this and the comms team as well and ITV were trying to do the best job of kind of figuring out okay well how many goals does that group now need that that country now need it was absolute chaos for a fair few minutes they kept switching in on the 22nd minute 26th minute the 41st minute it was and then there was like a flurry of goals in the 61st 64 67 so the screen was like this it was just like all over the shop um but yeah it obviously worked in the most favorable way I think for England that the that France dominated the game I thought they were incredibly smart I think we saw exactly what we saw with France in the in the England game we saw that passion we saw the aggression going forwards we saw how quick and speedy they can be and taking the game to the Netherlands but at the same time I mean it was always going to be an uphill battle for for the Netherlands to come into this game and walk away with with the points but couldn't have gone any better for us to be honest mate yeah i mean it was always going to be difficult

28:06Chloe: um to have to score that many it was always going to be even more difficult if you leave me on the bench which i just like couldn't understand the rationale was behind that genuinely i don't know look maybe there's stuff maybe there's more that i we don't know but like from the press conference yonker said oh well when we needed five goals i didn't see the point in bringing her on which in itself is a take I'd like to think I'd like I mean that's like Wales saying we didn't even bother turning up because we need like four goals against England like you still go out and you try your best which I just thought was a bit weird also then starter because you didn't need that many goals at the beginning of the game just you know when you're 2-1 up I just I appreciate that like she didn't have an impact in the England game and that is a lot down to the fact that England completely nullified the threat and they couldn't find her the Dutch could not feed the ball to her.

28:56Chloe: And that's not just down to the fact that to put it all on Miedema, essentially, there was a lot of reasons why she was marked out of the game. She showed in the Wales game that she can create something out of nothing. She's one of the most creative players in the team. So I just found it really odd that A, she didn't start and then not to have her come on. They're 2-1 up. You need goals. And yeah, you say France dominated, but it wasn't like... Dutch had more possession, for example. They both created shots. They both created shots on target. France definitely improved on that side of things with slightly more touches in the box.

29:29Chloe: And I just think that shows perhaps that lack of creativity that the Dutch needed that was missing somewhat. So I found some of the tactical decisions and the substitutes unusual across the tournament. It was the same with England. I think sometimes it's a bit of a case of just get the best 11 players on the pitch, regardless of if they're playing in their best positions, if that makes sense. And, you know, I just sometimes that doesn't really work. And look, maybe Junker is frustrated and wants to say, F you, Dutch Federation, given like he basically was told you're sacked, but you have to carry on this tournament.

30:04Chloe: I think more will come out of it. But the fact that they went 2-1 up against France, that should have been a moment where you at least bring on a creative player to try and turn something into nothing. rather than leaving yourself exposed by really just, you know, having a player who you can kind of target and say maybe she can do something with rather than, say, having to push the whole team forward to try and get this goal against a France that are deadly and fast. So, yeah, a disappointing tournament overall. I think people got excited about how they played against the Welsh and I think perhaps there was an element of Wales making them look good, especially in the second half.

30:42Chloe: I just don't think Janker has done great things for his CV.

30:45Rachel: Well, talking of Junkers, he was obviously asked about the situation after the game and sort of how the Netherlands hadn't really kind of found their feet in the tournament. And he said, I do not want to say anything about the Dutch Football Federation today. I've done everything to get the best possible result, but I do not control a number of aspects. I do not have influence on these matters and I am not implicitly inferring about the Dutch Football Federation. Are you just talking in riddles? What are you on about? Yeah, like I think when you say, oh, but it's not about it. you obviously are upset about the situation.

31:18Rachel: Understandably so, but at the same time, let's not lie about it. Yeah, it is what it is.

31:23Chloe: No, it just feels a bit like the bad things happened, but it wasn't my fault. But the good stuff is because of me. Do you know what I mean?

31:32Rachel: Managers who don't take responsibility for their own account, as in I don't take accountability for how their team is done, I don't get it.

31:40Chloe: Tactically, they got it so wrong against England and you had van der Donk coming out saying I was fit when that game was crying out for a van der Donk and then having to come out and say something different because obviously she was told that's not the line we're going with. Like just little things like that where you're a bit like, okay. Like initially I thought maybe Viv would come on at halftime having seen the first half and seen areas to exploit and know what to do and where to go. But no, stayed on the bench. I'm intrigued. Maybe more will come of it. This is the thing. I wasn't at that match.

32:10Chloe: I've just been hearing from other journalists what was said in the post-match and maybe we'll find out she had a niggle or whatever that might be. But I do think if you're going to leave a meet-a-mat out, that's something that should be clearly addressed as to why because that's a hammering from the French and they were hammered by England.

32:27Rachel: Yonkers feels like the kind of manager who will do like an expose interview or there'll be some kind of like Yonkers... Or a podcast. ...type thing. Yeah, 100%. Start to call it the puppet master or whatever it was,

32:38Chloe: the puppet show or whatever.

32:40Rachel: I mean when you kind of look at the Netherlands and sort of what they've been doing in sort of recent years I suppose I mean after the winning after winning the Euros in 2017 the Netherlands made it to the World Cup final in 2019 since then they've lost two quarter finals at the 2023 World Cup and at the 2022 Euros and gone out now in the group stages I mean recent tournament history isn't good for the Netherlands it feels like the like where do they go from here essentially I mean you've got the players you've got the quality you've got the talent there

33:09Chloe: it's like a Norway almost those last couple of tournaments though they had injuries to key players Paloba was out for a long time Miedema missed the World Cup missed the majority of Euro 2022 came back and was made to play 120 minutes when she was clearly not well enough so like there is that kind of factor around it and I just think yeah maybe there is a touch of the Norway about it where you look at that team and think you should be producing more getting hammered by the Germans before this tournament would not have done them great things for their confidence but yeah it is a bit of a conundrum sometimes but I do think it's an element of perhaps and we saw that again with Norway it was like players just not in the right positions or you know stuff like that where you're like what are we doing like what's happening I don't get that you know now I'm not as you know I'm not a tactician but there are definitely things that draw the eye and make you think I would love to know the insider be a fly on the wall for the decisions made in some of these things

34:05Rachel: I think you were right with what you said before Rach about it being a sort of set fire to things as you kind of walk away I hope it's not that

34:13Chloe: he's got another job like I mean why would you do that

34:18Rachel: let's give a brief nod to France because obviously they've been so dominant in Group D super super impressive super super scary this kind of feels like the tournament they've kind of really all the clogs or all the wheels in the machine have started to really come together they look ferocious they look pacey like they've got you know these superstar players you've got Cascarino I think Baltimore's had a great game Cototo's had a great game um yeah I mean Rach do we feel like I mean are we scared by by the

34:44Chloe: France attacking line because they've done absolutely bits this tournament I'm always scared of France um I think consistently over a 90 minute period I think sometimes they struggle to put together a full 90 minute performance I think you saw that against England in the second half arguably and lots of people want to say well they took off their best players and then like brought on like an absolute stacked subs which I just thought well we'll just won't mention that will we because that wouldn't fit the narrative and you know they conceded against Wales Wales had a good first half against them and they conceded they didn't have you know Dutch were ahead in the in the first half they conceded again they've conceded in every game so I think from that respect that's something they're going to want to work on ahead of the knockout stages are playing Germany, which is going to be a really interesting game.

35:30Chloe: A replay of the Euro 2022 semifinal. I feel like there's goals in that game. Germany have kind of just forgotten how to defend and have lost two defenders for that game as well, which isn't ideal. But yeah, I think they always look frightening going forward. And Delphine Cascarino, like if you watch one thing today, make it that goal because her goal was an absolute sublime piece of football. A wonderful goal. The Dutch just kind of, you know fucking melted away I don't know what happened they all just kind of stepped off and were like have at it and she absolutely did it was a beautiful goal but yeah I think France frightening going forward but can be got at definitely 100 % there's definitely there's

36:10Rachel: definitely weaknesses there but I've got to say like they've been one of the teams that have really really impressed me in this tournament they've just looked so I don't know fearless Relentless. Yes, just relentless. Yeah. Let's have a brief mention then of the Sweden thumping Germany. France faced Germany at the weekend in Basel because they could only finish second in Group C after Sweden beat them 4-1. This was Germany's heaviest ever defeat at Euros. Kanarid has been talking up Sweden's chances, saying she thinks they can go the whole way this time because there's something different about this squad.

36:49Rachel: I think those views can be tempered a little bit. I wouldn't say that what I've seen from Sweden has been better than what I've seen Spain perform, better than what I've seen France perform, better than the Lionel's last two games. I think Sweden have definitely had positive performance. I mean, there's something of Germany, 100 % one of those. But I do also think that it came at a point where the German performance just wasn't good enough. I don't think it was a particularly incredible Swedish performance. I think there were definitely moments of that in a game, but Germany fell apart.

37:22Chloe: I think this game showed how well they did to capitalise on Germany's weaknesses. I don't think their performance against Denmark was that exciting. I found that game really quite boring. Poland just really didn't mount much of a challenge. But this game showed that they could see weaknesses and target them. Granted, Germany were down to 10 because Wamser had been playing quite well. She, of course, was the stand-in for Julia Gwynn, who got injured in the first game, the captain. She was having a really good game, set up the first goal, and then found herself on the goal line and obviously immediately thought, that means I'm a goalkeeper, and saw straight red.

37:59Chloe: In the opening kind of 10 minutes, I thought, bloody hell, Germany are going to carve Sweden apart because they were getting in behind. And we'd seen it from Germany across the three games where they're creating but not being clinical enough. And that kind of happened. and for the Blaxenius goal I don't know what was going on in the German's minds but they all just moved to like the left side of the pitch and Blaxenius was left isolated on the right and just centred the ball I don't know maybe they thought she was going to need a couple of shots before she actually scored one as she so often does but no she absolutely buried it you know then the penalty just I think once that player went off as well Germany just fell apart even more you know Holmberg had gotten that goal beforehand Sweden were 2-1 up and she'd gotten a lovely goal and again goalkeeping not brilliant Chloe I'd love your insight on some of this but AKB sometimes likes to make the easy things look difficult and I just I was getting so frustrated with her in the second half where she was they'd be playing around from the back there'd be no pressure but she'd wait for the pressure before she passed the ball and I appreciate you're trying to pull a player out of position but like I'm like your fullback is wide open in space and you're waiting and waiting and waiting until the the attacker is practically on top of you just to i don't know what drama i don't know i don't know what it is sometimes i'm just a bit like what are you doing just clear it like so yeah she didn't have the best game but i do think vampster maybe gave her a run for her money i definitely think there were moments that they

39:28Rachel: didn't it they became unnecessarily risky because it only takes like a i don't know a miss croif turn or you know uh attacker coming at you from a completely different angle you're not appreciating another movement on the pitch and all of a sudden you've absolutely fucked it I think um and the commentary were definitely saying the same thing they were saying you know we understand that AKB you know she has that confidence with her she is she does have that that sort of um cool composed nature when she is coming under pressure but at the same time like don't you don't need to make things harder for yourself like the pressure and the the being in the tournament is already like demanding enough like you can just play the simple balls it's not yeah I agree with that so yeah never one for criticizing the goalkeeper but fucking hell like there's ways to

40:10Chloe: there's ways to reduce it a bit Germany have looked like you know there are times when you think oh they're looking really good and then you're like oh god maybe you're not and it just seems to be lacking that little bit of consistency and maybe it's this transitional period with a new manager or whatever it might be because they've got the quality and you've got the likes of your brand looking like unbelievable and you know yeah I just I think this France Germany game is going to be so interesting oh god who are you putting your um who are you putting your money on france yeah yeah i think especially with the hurt of the euro 2022 semi-final i think that was 2-1 to germany like they'll see this as an opportunity they'll look at that sweden game and go we can get at this german team granted now they're you know they're not going to be down to 10 and it's only a one and i've had this discussion with some people online but it's only a one game ban for a straight red that isn't like a dangerous challenge and it doesn't sit right with me that two yellows and a straight red can result in the same length of punishment I just feel like if you get a straight red regardless of whether it's an intentional handball and not a tackle if it's a straight red for me at least should be two games then right so that you know so that if you get two yellows in a game that's not as bad as getting a straight red why are the two punishments the same but anyway it just means banter is out for for the the france the germany france the France game.

41:33Chloe: So yeah, Germany's going to have to find a third fullback.

41:37Rachel: Gosh, that's not an easy thing to do in the midst of a tournament. Good luck to them. We will speak more about Sweden and how they match up with England on tomorrow's show. We'll be doing our group stage roundup. Alex Ipsesca will also be joining us to discuss Spain and how frightening they have been so far. And we'll look ahead to the first quarterfinal between Norway and Italy on Wednesday night. Remember, make sure you hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode throughout the Euros. Thank you so much, Rach. Thanks, Chloe.

42:19Upfront is a Stack production and part of the Acast Creator Network.