England undone by France and Wales struggle against the Dutch | Euro 2025 #3

0:00Rachel: Hi pod fans, Max Rushton here from the chart-topping Guardian Football Weekly Podcast. Don't like to crow. If you enjoyed the World Cup with us, you'll be glad to know we're back for the new Premier League season. Expect three episodes a week, questionable predictions and the biggest stories in soccer from the Premier League to the Champions League and beyond. Watch now on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Thumbtack presents Tile Trouble. Every single time I use my sink, I make eye contact with the uneven grout on my kitchen backsplash. the crooked corners eye me and i'm haunted by more tiling questions than i thought possible what kind of pro can fix a backsplash can i replace one crack tile or should i replace them all what what if i just use thumbtack i can hire top rated pros read reviews and compare prices with a tap all on the app thumbtack knows homes download the app today when she said i don't dance now i make money moves that was a mission statement for a whole new generation respect but that's not the Mount Rushmore.

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2:15Rachel: Welcome to Upfront. I'm Clay Morgan. And I'm Rachel O'Sullivan. England's Euros defence got off to a tough start against France After a promising opening in 15 minutes the game slipped away from the Lionesses and the French took control We're here to discuss what went wrong whether Sazzy Weeks could have responded more quickly and what has to change against the Netherlands Wales also suffered defeat against the Dutch and we wrap up the latest news across the tournament Rach, I was kind of saying this kind of feels like one of those mornings you know where something sort of quite awful has happened and you kind of wake up and then there's those 30 seconds where you've got that blissful unawareness of, you know, what the previous day has brought.

2:56Rachel: I kind of had the same experience this morning. My train of thoughts were, where the fuck am I? It's so hot. Oh, England lost. And generally that's my, those first two thoughts are what I have every morning in Switzerland. Where am I again? Why am I so hot? And then what's happening today? What's the bin smell there? No. No, good. All right. Okay. Well, things could have been worse, I suppose. Before we get into a slightly negative start to the day, and I appreciate obviously me and Rachel sort of recording these podcasts very early in the morning. So we don't want everyone to wake up with a kind of general sense of negativeness.

3:34Rachel: I think it's good to start with a bit of positive. I would like to say happy Pride to our London contingent. It was a beautiful day out in London. I did manage to go and see some of the parade yesterday. Full flags everywhere. Beautifulness. celebration, joy, happiness, which then obviously rapidly turned to despair, shock, horror as we watched the Lionesses game unfold. But for that brief moment in the day, I suppose, it felt like a really jubilant time on Saturday to kind of celebrate a lovely cause. So I will just throw that in there as a bit of a positive for H. Go on. My positive over here was I went to Lionesses HQ.

4:12so that's obviously the Freeline S is the FSA supporters group and have teamed up with the FA this year and they've taken over a kind of beer works kind of craft works bar in Zurich a very very cool location and it's been completely designed for England fans and it is so cool so if anyone is in Zurich listening to this or coming to Zurich I'd absolutely recommend going to that because when I think back to 2013, the 2013 Euros, even the 2017 Euros and what was available to now, it is a huge difference and England fans are very, very lucky to have that kind of set up before a game because it definitely, despite what the result ended up being, I think it definitely created a very, very nice day for England fans before kick-off.

5:01Rachel: Oh, that's really lovely, mate. I love signing this little section with a bit of positivity. The end of the positivity? Yes, the end of the positive. Let's draw a line under that kind of wishy-washy nonsense. Yeah, let's get stuck into France, England. France obviously walking away with the points 2-1. It's Weigmann's first Euros defeat. Yes, it's Weigmann's. Sassie Weigs suffered her first Euros defeat. Obviously, the Lionesses did start well. It was a spicy 15 to 20 minutes. You had loads of opportunities being created. Lauren James sort of firing over the bar after 40 seconds. Alessia Russo had the ball obviously in the back of the net after 15 minutes, but the goal was disallowed for that.

5:41Rachel: Shouldn't explain that to me. I can't see it. We put a post out about it yesterday, and the comments on it are in the sort of hundreds. The arm, okay, so it kind of came down to the arms of the players, but the French arm was much more progressed over the line than Russo's arm. So I don't understand how this VAR decision was made. and VAR, it is so obvious. It's not like a referee was kind of making the decision ad hoc without the benefit of having a massive electronical signal. Like, it was there. To me, it just wasn't. I just don't get it, Rach. Don't get me wrong. I get it. Like, people are going to say it's technology and it can't be wrong, blah, blah, blah.

6:23Fine. Provide better proof because, like, that's what's... I keep seeing this picture and I'm just like, this is like that gold and white dress again is it black and blue or is it gold I'm like I can't see the other I can't see what I'm supposed to see in this thing does that mean like I'm a psychopath is it one of those psychopath tests where you get shown something and it's like what do you see and everyone else sees offside well I don't think everyone else sees offside I think a lot of us are looking at it going cool where's the offside thank you for the photo I really appreciate that where is it and that's what's annoying and I'm sure VAR technology blah blah it must be right I just wish I could see it.

7:00Rachel: We couldn't see it. And I think I have to flag that I never like to throw shade on referees. They already have a hard enough job as it is. But there were a couple of really dubious calls that we will go into. And also the caveat to that is, I was going to say, is the caveat is that France 100%, despite the referee decisions, France deserved to win that game. That's a non-question for me. But there were some very dubious calls which we'll get stuck into. That first one, I think, was the Russo VAR call, which obviously did have a massive impact in that start of the game. Things could have gone slightly differently in terms of the momentum.

7:32Boy, did momentum shift. Holy shit.

7:34Rachel: Yeah, in England building. And all of a sudden, I think after that goal was disallowed, you did see that shift over to France, kind of taking the lead and stepping forward and being more aggressive. But before we get stuck into how dominant France become, I mean, Rach, positivity for that first 15, 20 minutes. I mean, what did you pull out as being sort of some of the strengths that England were initially at least displaying? in well they were playing quick football you know which is when England are at their best their free-flowing best when they're moving the ball quickly you know LJ was being super creative Beth Mead was getting in Russo you know that it kind of looked maybe how we expected it was going to be tight it was going to be feisty both teams were playing well and you were kind of like who's going to edge this out and then yeah I just it was like a switch flipped after that goal was disallowed and I don't know they that the speed was gone the intensity was gone they just kind of seemed to completely lose their way and you know yes we're going to talk about the areas that England were exploited in and shock horror it is the very areas we were concerned about um that not that that doesn't bother me like I think we knew where they were going to be got at I think the it's unfortunate that the players that were there had quite an off day I think everyone had an off day between kind of minute 20 and minute 85 um but that just wasn't England's level for those kind of 60 odd minutes and that's the frustration the mistakes that were being made and the things that were within their control that's what frustrated me the most the sloppiness in possession the short passes the kind of poor decision making the lack of intensity and they're things that are in England's control and they're uncharacteristic things you know and I know everyone wants to, there's some people on social media who like to draw these damning verdicts as soon as England have a bad game.

9:27And it's simply because they're just not good enough at this level and they believe their own hype. And it's because there's all those world-class players that were left at home because Serena plays her favourites, blah, blah, blah. That is an England's level. And that's what the frustrating thing is, is because normally England are a tournament team who turn up in tournaments. And that just didn't happen for those 65 minutes. And you're kind of sitting there going, what are you doing? This is so unusual to watch you do this. Never mind France dominating in areas, etc. Right. We can live with that.

9:55England have, I think if England had played well and lost 2-1, it would have been an easier loss to handle. It's the way that they lost and the nature of the loss that is the most frustrating thing.

10:07Rachel: 100 % and I think just to flag on those you know the mistakes that you're talking about there I mean in terms of some of the examples I mean the first goal um I mean it was too easy for Marie Antoinette Cototo to finish it just felt like that cross came in she sort of drifted um it was the Cascarino cross Cototo kind of drifted in behind Leah Williamson and I think there was that already there was a frustration I think you saw Leah kind of like wave her arms about like what is going on like what what is happening here and then even leading into that second goal you've got Lucy Bronze who's kind of slid in kind of fallen over a little bit and then Sandy Baltimore is allowed to shoot into the top corner of the net like and there's like two or three players crowded around her there was like like you said Fates there were like basic things that you'd expect from your defenders that weren't happening I think especially with the fullbacks I mean we saw how challenging it was for Carter and Bronze to kind of even deal with some of the pace that the French were showing.

11:03Rachel: I mean, there were so many times, I mean, Carter in particular, completely outpaced on the wing and it just led to so many dangerous balls being whipped in that England then had to deal with. But I mean, I don't even know how we even stop that. I mean, you know, teams going forwards now, the Netherlands are going to see that, Wales are going to see that and look at where the areas of weakness are. Like it leaves us quite exposed to this happening again i don't want to be you know mainstream kind of like this is like catastrophic it just but there is definitely a cause for concern yes but i would also say neither jess carter nor lucy bronze played at their level they had bad days okay so this idea that this is their top level it's not i think we had this debate about whether neve charles or jess carter should start and when one starts and they have a bad game it's always like well you should have started the other and the problem is neither of those players recently have been consistent in their form they have had good games where you've gone do you know what they actually they have played well they have done you know great like get them get them to start um over the other right so we can look back at poor performances from both of them and we can look back at better performances from both them i thought neve charles actually looked quite good when she came on i think jess carter had an off day i think lucy bronze had a bad day that was not their level so i'd like to think you know england can get to their level in future games and massively learn from this i thought france were excellent they knew where to target they knew their game plan inside out um and they were so good at double teaming on some of those problem areas for england so you know dalme the almeida was able to get up so high linking up with cascarino um you know making it really difficult for Jess Carter if she tried to kind of keep up with one the other was coming in behind you know so they were completely outpacing their similar situations on the other side I thought Beth Mead was scored really low on the BBC player ratings and I think that's done by the public and I think what frustrates me a little bit at times is that you know people will look at the forwards and go well they haven't scored any goals so they've had a shit game I thought Beth Mead did very well at covering for Lucy at times because there were times there was one point where she made this really good recovery run deep into England's half near the end line and I couldn't see Lucy as I looked up going where's she gone she'd made this really like deep run into France's half and suddenly the ball turned over so quickly because as we know France are super fast and Mead was back to make that recovery tackle and I think that limited her ability going forward to be impactful going forward because she was conscious of having to be available defensively as well because France are so quick and I think once England that pace that we're used to seeing from England just wasn't really there and it allowed France's weapons of speed be so impactful down those wings so weapons of speed well it is a massive weapon for them and like yeah we can talk about you know the defense in Williamson and in that first goal that started from midfield a short pass from Georgia Stanway an example of the things England were doing Serena Viedman touching it in the post-match those short passes that sloppy that they shouldn't have been doing and didn't want to be doing it was kind of the wrong decisions they were making and it started there I thought Stamway had a real the midfield, France's midfield dominated England she struggled, that short pass had started there and as soon as it came down that France's right, England's left I was sat there and I remember just thinking this is a goal as Dalmeida came running down the pitch I just thought to myself the goal is going to come from this side and it did and then the second goal there was a whole VAR check and I remember as I watched this in real time through my camera lens there was obviously that focus on the tackle on Russo before that when Russo had the ball in my opinion and I'm going to have to watch it back because you watch these things in real time and you think I definitely saw that I said out loud oh my god that's a shirt pull right so she had her shirt pulled then the tackle came in and from where I was I was like that's got to be a free now I think that was a 50-50.

15:05Some people look at it and say she got the leg first. Some people look at it and say she got the ball. It was a fair challenge, right? For me, I really wanted to see the moment before on whether that was a shirt pull. What England cannot afford to do is stand still and say, well, that's a free and allow France to come and slice through them like they did. So that, it started from there again. So there was moments in the midfield that, you know, where these goal issues started.

15:28Rachel: Yeah, 100%. And I think that was kind of some of the dubious referee calls that I was kind of alluding to at the start of the pod is that, you know, had those moments gone slightly differently, had that been flagged, had that been a foul, it obviously wouldn't have led to the goal happening in that way. Maybe there would have been more goals. And again, France deserved to win. But at the same time, that to me, I mean, I was, so we were fortunate enough to have this watch party in London and the crowd, because they played the replay over and over again, six or seven times and like at different angles and every single time it just felt like that was another call for me that i just felt like that it just feels unjust and i don't really feel like that was given enough sort of importance for the impact that it had on the game yeah i think so i'm sometimes a bit reticent to talk about refereeing when england lose because then everyone piles in and says you're just looking for excuses and no it's not it's not even excuse that's not why england it's a referee and call in isolation two things can be true the referee had a bad game and so did england and france deserved to win um i do think the refereeing is worth talking about because it's it's a niggle that's been happening not just this game for me but the last a couple of games that i've done now that was my fourth game um and i felt like in the spain game there were moments where i was a bit like Jesus what you know what is this referee doing um in the Denmark Sweden game everything every kind of challenge at times seemed to be a freak I was getting frustrated with the ref in that one as well and so this just felt like I was almost almost primed to be irritated by the ref because it had been happening as the tournament has gone on a little bit there were you know there was a moment I was getting frustrated I was down with you know some French photographers in the first half um and i was getting frustrated and by the end the photographers around me were reacting to the calls as well even they were like ah you know what you know um and there was a moment where i can't remember who it was that went down in midfield it might have been karshiwi or it might have been i can't remember who it was maybe basha sama basha but injured in in the middle of the park stayed down but france had possession they carried on passed the ball out wide to almeida you know carried on with their attack got it into the england box it broke down ball came out to Beth Mead and she took off at a break up the field then the ref decided to blow the whistle and I was like hang on it's not a head injury France are happy to play on with their player down but the ref decided to blow it as soon as the ball came into England's possession and took off and I'm like these little decisions where you're just like why have you made that decision you know there were Michelle Ajemang being pulled up as soon as she came on because she didn't hear the whistle and carried on that she was offside and carried on fucking referee pulled her over and started having a go and you're like she's just come on the pitch there were some things yeah fouls missed just it was frustrating but it wasn't a reason that England lost the game it's frustrating for this level that this is the third game now where I've gone fuck the referee needs to you know up its game up its game a little bit

18:38Rachel: Hi Pod fans Max Rushton here from the chart-topping Guardian Football Weekly Podcast. Don't like to crow. If you enjoyed the World Cup with us, you'll be glad to know we're back for the new Premier League season. Expect three episodes a week, questionable predictions, and the biggest stories in soccer from the Premier League to the Champions League and beyond. Watch now on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Thumbtack presents Tile Trouble. Every single time I use my sink, I make eye contact with the uneven grout on my kitchen backsplash. The crooked corners eye me and I'm haunted by more tiling questions than I thought possible.

19:09Rachel: What kind of pro can fix a backsplash? Can I replace one cracked tile or should I replace them all? What? What if I just use Thumbtack? I can hire top-rated pros, read reviews, and compare prices with a tap. All on the app. Thumbtack knows homes. Download the app today. You've got social dialed in. Search is doing its thing. So why do your marketing results look the same as six months ago? That's because you're fishing in the same pond as everyone else. Podcast listeners are a different audience entirely. More engaged, harder to reach through traditional channels, and ready to act when someone they trust makes a recommendation.

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20:12Rachel: well let's talk a little bit then about some of the decisions that were made not from the referees but from Sazie Wiggs um she brought on Neve Charles, Chloe Kelly and Ella Toon after 60 minutes then Grace Clinton came on for Georgia Stanway after 77 minutes and then Azimane came on in the 86th minute for Alex Greenwood and obviously had we we had that sort of lovely moment of hope from Keira Walsh 87th minute this absolute rocket from the edge of the box completely unmarked like almost almost like a lapse in judgment from France they'd done so well for pretty much the entire duration of the game but kind of had that moment of switching off but what did you make of the subs rage because I thought I was kind of struggling because it was difficult for me and I know you've kind of given some context to it in terms of you know LJ not being at full fitness and not being able to play the full 90 minutes but she was by far the most electric person on the pitch it just felt like from the minute she stepped on she obviously got that early strike she was creating chances not only that but she was also tracking back and doing her defensive duties to an absolute tee I thought she was the most sprightly bit of hope that we had and then all of a sudden it kind of felt like Sazie Riggs had to then take her off and then we kind of had these three the injection of three sub I didn't I didn't think initially even though we had these three subs come on that there was an immediate impact but they kind of grew into the game um and then obviously by the end of it having Michelle Ajeman come on for for three or four minutes I just felt like and I agree with you Rach that it just kind of felt a little bit too little too late um like Michelle Adjaman yeah 100 % like you're not going to expect that she's going to be on the pitch for sort of I don't know 45 minutes or even start the game but at the same time you have to give her enough time to warm up to get into the game and to kind of grow into it and like bless her like one of her first touches she took a strike on goal and I and it was a great block absolutely an amazing French block but at the same time it's like you're not giving these players enough time to actually get settled get stuck into the game and take a handle on it to to then make that kind of impact but rachel what did you what did you make of all of those subs sort of um yeah in the second half it came they came thick and fast they did i was actually all right with the subs personally um you know lj isn't at full fitness we knew that coming into this um and it was always going to be a gamble of have her impact the first 60 or have her impact the second half and it's you you don't know how a game is going to go so you think get ourselves ahead in the first half and then we can take her off you know and perhaps LJ coming off the bench could have been more impactful but it's always going to be a difficult decision to make I think if she's if she's not fit she's not fully fit for 90 minutes that's just a difficult thing you have to handle um I thought what was good was I didn't feel like the game dipped I think England as when the subs were made it did start to improve I think Chloe Kelly offered more of an attacking role because England needed that um so they needed to be pressing forward more Elitoune giving a little bit of and and Clinton just giving a little bit more robustness in midfield which I think was lacking because as I said I thought France dominated in the midfield area um and yeah Adjumang came on made such a difference I I think I would have liked that to happen at least five minutes earlier if not 75 minutes and I again it's a a difficult one because it was a brave decision to take a defender off and put her on that's always going to be a tricky one because you expose yourself right and we've seen how dominant France were but moving to that three at the back allowing them to push forward more and perhaps that could have just been more impactful from 75 80 minutes um you know she she's a difficult player to mark it was her and Russo and it really made the French defense kind of struggle a little bit to have to deal with both of them so yeah i think her coming on a little bit earlier could have made an impact there were just moments i think as we got towards the game and england kind of started to wow sorry i think is that an eagle just flew by my window fucking massive sorry um someone tell me if this eagle's in switzerland but there's a massive bird that just flew past my window and was very and sorry what i was saying yes there were moments in the box towards the end when england started to turn the screw a little bit and try and look for the equaliser where players were doing things that they normally wouldn't do or they weren't doing things that they normally would you know there was a moment where the ball dropped to Charles she just had to put her laces through it and she didn't have the confidence to do it she passed it and the same thing happened with Lauren Hemp who normally would absolutely put her laces through it you know and there were just those moments it was almost like they were afraid to miss and you needed that kind of bravery and and confidence at times from players in and around that moment.

24:50Because I do think had the likes of, and this is what the great thing about Ajay Mai brings, she's brave. She can go out there and play her game. She's not fearful. She plays with absolutely, like you said,

24:59Rachel: there's a confidence to her and a kind of fearlessness. The way that she plays doesn't reflect the gravity of the moment. It's almost like she stepped on to play like a five-a-side at the local park with the guys. It just feels like there's that kind of, I don't know, give a shit mentality about and I see the same thing I think a little bit with with Lauren James she doesn't ever let the kind of occasion unsettle her she doesn't look shaken at all like when Ajerman comes on there's like this cool composed and for someone you know who's only just been making her England debuts who's only just come into the England foray to then be put in this situation so early doors I mean a lot of people saying you know when Ajerman was called up to the squad oh it's a really nice opportunity for her to you know be amongst the squad and to get that kind of you know major tournament experience it's hard to say whether she'll get any minutes first game and she almost her first touch is almost a goal um I just think she's such an impactful player I agree that I think that should have that should have happened a lot earlier and I think it was lovely to see England kind of step into things and be more aggressive and be kind of more front-footed on in those last 10 minutes but also a lot of people are saying you know Baltimore was off, Katoto was off, Cascarino was off the pitch like their pace and skill it kind of exposed England less so there was kind of yes England have stepped forward but also the biggest threats for France are also off the pitch at this point so there was that balance too Sure, I totally agree but I also think it was not to try and drag positives out of a bad loss but I think the fact that they rallied somewhat in the second half they didn't allow it to get worse the fact that they got that goal back and were pushing for a second could have nicked a draw at the end will hopefully give them that little bit of confidence because the way they play, and yes, I appreciate that some of those threats were off France, which could have been a really interesting decision had England nicked an equaliser.

26:51It definitely would have been scrutinised. I do kind of think it will give them a bit of confidence because that's the kind of intensity they needed to be playing with and that was lacking. So the fact that they found it somewhat is good and the fact that, you know, some of these younger players who came on, Clinton and Adjumang could play with that pressure and intensity is positive but yeah I just think a little bit too little too late for Adjumang I think she's just so good at being laser focused on what her role is she doesn't like you say she's not thinking about the wider context the wider issue she's here now they're playing France they need a goal that's her job going on and she's not thinking about what does it mean for the group stages are we going to get out of the group she's thinking my job is to get on that pitch and cause problems and get a goal i know how to do that i've done it before for the senior lionesses i could do it again so yeah i think we always hope that again another weaponing than have on the bench that kind of impactful player that offers a different type of striker to a russo um and you can see i just thought it was it was interesting to see wiegmann willing to to roll the dice make you know people always say she doesn't make enough changes.

28:04I know he saw that sometimes in the World Cup and that was like her hand was forced, I guess. But to make those kind of changes in the match, I just wish she'd been a bit braver 10 minutes earlier.

28:13Rachel: Well, let's dissect the kind of the, it's just kind of like a post-mortem, I think, of this game. Because afterwards, obviously, there was a lot of disappointment. There was a lot of sadness. There was a lot of comments that were made, you know, within the Lionesses camp about what had gone wrong and, you know, what they needed to do to kind of rectify those going into the Netherlands and the Wales game. so a lot of the pundits were saying the lionesses were bullied they played into france's hands um and then serena weakman was kind of saying you know they created their own problems jess carter was saying they played a little bit like they were scared leah williamson obviously quite frustrated at sort of points in the game she was saying that there was some cheap source of emotional defending and then there was the press conference moment that um serena was asked about those comments and instead of i think i always expect that i managed to go well you know maybe I wouldn't have said it in that way, but actually this is what I think happened.

29:03Rachel: It was kind of like, I don't agree with those comments. That's not the way that I would have phrased it. It kind of felt like, and even after the game had finished, like the players kind of, I don't know, there was a sadness, but in separation, you know, was in some of the moments that you expect in the major tournaments where things haven't gone to plan. You know, it's teams, you know, appreciating that, you know, it hasn't gone the way they thought it would, but also rallying within each other and kind of picking themselves up and, you know, know bringing themselves together and kind of I don't know kind of being together in that loss but it kind of felt like there was a disjointedness and a separation I mean Rach you were obviously at the game I mean I only saw the tv footage of everyone kind of you know looking really dejected but I mean is that something you've picked up while sort of being out there for the last 24 hours or so in terms of the sort of players you know suffering in isolation I suppose I personally didn't read that much into it I think you have to factor in this team hasn't lost I mean the only game they've lost in the last two major tournaments was the World Cup final so even when they haven't had good games and you see them rallying together and they've still gotten the three points is a very different situation to be in to losing the opening game of the Euros as defending champions they've never kind of had to come into a major tournament as defending champions there's a lot of things that they're contending with that they haven't had to deal with before.

30:22I think had they played really well and still lost, there's a difference there where you can rally around each other and be like, look, we were almost there. We played really well. I think the fact that there were so many individual poor performances that players were shell-shocked and they probably couldn't understand why they were playing so poorly or why they were making the mistakes they were making and why things were happening uncharacteristically. And, you know, yes, you might look at yourself and say, well, I had a bad game, but then you're also looking at other players and go, why the fuck did you have a bad game as well?

30:51Do you know what I mean? So personally, I wouldn't read too much into it. They're human. They want to win. They know the pressures that this team are under and the scrutiny this team are under. And they know that's going to ramp up now in the next few days because they've lost the opening game to France and they play badly. And I think they deal with it in different ways. And I know they're going to have people around them to help them deal with losses, et cetera, et cetera. But at the end of the day, losing a game in a major tournament as defending champions, they've not had to do it before. So they're going to react in different ways.

31:17They're going to deal with it in different ways. And they have the wider team around them to help them deal with that in the coming days as they lead into the Netherlands. But they're going to have to be able to put that disappointment behind them and focus on the Dutch. Because as we're going to come on to, they're looking good too.

31:35Rachel: I think the concern to me, I think, is just the unity piece. I think when you sort of look at, I completely hear what you're saying. Like that is a massive disappointment. And a lot of the team maybe haven't faced that level of disappointment in a long time. but at the same time in order to win tournaments it is the teams that stick together and rally behind each other even in like the darkest moments and this was obviously not a great start but yeah I think that was just like the small thing that I just picked up on and I think you can tell a lot I think from body language and I don't mean to exacerbate and I don't mean to like catastrophize anything but there just seemed to be I don't know something a little bit different about how the Lionesses seemed in that defeat that I've seen before but yeah obviously they've got a few days now to pick themselves up to go again and obviously to get prepped for for the game against the netherlands on on wednesday but yeah it's um it's a it's a tough start but at the same time so i was at a little watch party last night and someone was saying that argentina when they won the men's world cup last um lost their opening game and then obviously went on to win the tournament so hope but also we knew group d was gonna be hard we knew it was gonna be hard we knew there was every likelihood that england could lose a game so i didn't i've got them in the sweepstake me no but we talked about how difficult this group is going to be and you know i've seen pundits going well this is the first time a defending champion has ever lost their first opening game and you're like cool this is probably the toughest friggin euros we've ever had like i actually went back and did some research 2013 germany had won 2009 they came in in 2013 and drew with Norway.

33:07And then in 2017, Germany came in again and they drew with Sweden. And then the Netherlands came into 2022 and they drew with Sweden. So this idea that normally defending champions come and just blast everyone out of the water is bullshit. Context is relevant to these losses. I think my frustration is the nature of the defeat and that's what's frustrating. We've seen it before. We've seen England play terribly and then come back and play the next game and be very, very good. You know, that reminded me of the Germany game where they were 3-0 down inside like 20 minutes and we were like, sorry, who's this?

33:40Can we bring on the actual team? So they've been in that situation before, perhaps not in a major tournament, where everything's gone wrong and they've been able to turn it around. So yeah, this is going to take a lot from the management team, the analysis team, from the psychology team to be able to turn this around and go out there now knowing that the next two games they have to win.

34:01Rachel: thank you Rach that's exactly what I needed that that context thank you for providing that and just as a very quick note I know a lot of people would have been um really excited about Rachel's eagle that flew uh past her window uh producer Finn has put in yes there are eagles in Switzerland uh specifically the golden eagle is the only large predator species that has survived in the region and has a healthy population in the Alps so fantastic well I think they live in and around my area so there's a little family that I'm constantly seeing these massive winged birds flying by my window. Never been that close though.

34:32Rachel: Well, to our listeners, not only do we provide expert analysis on the games, but also some kind of nature related information. I need to start doing like my own kind of nature documentary. Looking outside, there's a bald eagle flying by our window. What? That's Steve Irwin. Yeah, that's what I was going for. I thought you were going to do more like a David Attenborough type. I can't do that voice, sorry. No, fair enough. Well, on that note, let's just close that off. Coming up after this, Wales kicks off their first major tournament against the Netherlands.

35:17Rachel: All right, Rach, straight on to the next game. Let's leave the dust of disappointment behind us. moving on to another slightly disappointing result for Wales. They began their first major tournament with a defeat against the Netherlands. They were, I'd say, pretty solid, pretty resolute for the first half and kind of limited Dutch chances to very far and few between. But obviously, who is going to open up the score sheet but Viv Medevar. I mean, beautiful goal in stoppage time. So it was 45 plus three minutes. It was a hundredth goal for Netherlands. There was this like lovely celebration moment.

35:56Rachel: It was her, Kasperi and... Burman. Burman, yeah. Who kind of did this like... Kasperi, I don't know what Kasperi was doing. They were asked about it. She was asked about it at the post-match press conference. And the journalists were basically like, I don't really know what it was that you ended up doing. And Viv was like, yeah, I don't really know either. But basically they practiced in the hotel. Viv was supposed to do the one. and the other two were supposed to do the O's. And because of the order they ended up in, Viv and Berman did the O's. And then for some reason, Casper and I decided to try and spell out Viv with her fingers.

36:28Rachel: Is that what that was? Because I was like, they're trying to do 400. And I was like, I just don't get... And then Berman was like, oh wait, maybe I'll do the one. And I just, yeah, I think it needed a bit more practice. You knew that goal was coming, Viv. Come on. That whole thing, like the celebration was, it just kind of fell apart, but also really iconic. and who else but Caspari to kind of, I don't know, get that. She's such a humorous character in the first place. It kind of felt right that she'd inject that energy into it. I know we practice, but I'm going to totally screw this up for you.

36:54Rachel: Literally that. But yeah, I think, I mean, for me, Rach, we kind of, there was nothing unsurprising about this game and that's no discredit to Wales at all, but we just know how dominant the Netherlands can be. And obviously Wales were always going to have a tough time. So I was looking at some of the stats here. So possession-wise, I mean, Wales had 32 % to Netherlands 68%. In terms of shots on target, Wales didn't have any. And I think this is, Rach, where I think you were kind of saying that Wales are going to have the biggest challenge to climb in this tournament. I mean, what was your take, I suppose, at least on the first half?

37:28Rachel: Because we have to talk about how resolute Wales were in their defending and kind of keep the Netherlands at bay, at least. Yeah, I think they did a good job at frustrating them. there were some hairy moments early on, you know, and there was a save on the line as well from Clark. But I think Wales grew into the half, you know, understandably, perhaps a little bit nervous at the beginning of the first half, but they certainly grew into it. And the longer the game went on without the Netherlands scoring, the more confidence you could see in the Welsh team. You know, they had a couple of forays forward themselves.

38:04But yeah, like I said, I think not having that kind of target player to go for made it difficult because, you know, your record goal scorer was in midfield. So more often than not, when those moments break, the players who are the most effective in the box are having to come from midfield. So, you know, understandably that was a little bit tricky, but I think they did, you know, worry the Dutch a couple of times with a couple of corners. But yeah, I think they did very well. I think it was a heartbreaking time to concede. That team talk would have been very different going in at nil-nil. And to concede in the way that they did will be frustrating.

38:44The goal was a thing of beauty. It was an absolute classic Vivian Miedema goal where she feigned to shoot. She feigned to shoot again, that typical kind of turning people inside out, knowing she could shoot with her left on her right. And then putting it in top bins as well was a peak Miedema goal. and a very cool goal to get for your 100th goal, you know, because it could have been scrappy. You could have kind of tapped it over the line or, you know, squirted it through the defender's legs or something, but for it to be that kind of goal for your 100th goal was very special. So, you know, a gut punch going in at halftime to concede when they did, and then to come out and concede three minutes into the second half is a one-two blow, I think.

39:25And it's that we've touched on this before in the WSL about teams, you know, kind of making that step into being able to play against the top teams. And it's often that ability to be switched on for 90 minutes and be nailed on the game plan for 90 minutes. And those dangerous moments are just before halftime, just after halftime and just before full time. And those two goals were suddenly, you know, you're down 2-0. The mountain to climb is a lot higher than that one in Snowdonia. So it was, yeah, a difficult kind of lesson, I think, for Wales. And I think they will learn a lot from it. And then, of course, Esme Brucht getting a goal, what, five minutes later.

40:06So it all kind of happened in a short space of time. And suddenly it became a very difficult challenge to get back into it.

40:13Rachel: I would say that the Wales post and also crossbar seem to be the sort of 12th and 13th Welsh players. It's like a hat-trick of woodworks. Honestly, how the frame of the goal was broken during that game is absolutely beyond me. I mean, Jill Roard smashed the woodwork twice. Obviously, you had then the sort of Lily Woodham clearers. But there was another, I can't remember who it was, but there was another absolute rocket that hit the crossbar too. So it did feel like there was a lot of opportunity, I think, for the Netherlands to make this a very high scoring game. And then Bernstein had goals ruled offside.

40:46Rachel: Oh, my God. I think she was absolutely incredible. Created some absolutely incredible chances. there was some decent goalkeeping as well I think I've got a good credit to um to Clark as well um yes they were lucky with the offside call but it kind of did feel like Wales were they weren't sort of creating as many chances up front and then they were kind of getting caught on the counter I think especially as the game went on I think the sort of tired legs were creeping in the game was opening up more and that was creating more chance for for the Netherlands and there were times where I think there was about what three like sort of Dutch players careering towards goal and only maybe two players two welsh defenders kind of trying to keep up with the pace going back it just yeah i think it was it was a tough game for wales it yeah i do it wasn't probably the start that they wanted but i think it was probably the start that they were maybe braced for um along with that obviously some uh slightly concerning news with uh kerry holland going off with what looked like a hamstring injury yeah that was that wasn't good you know i think especially when it happens off the ball you know she was just running and suddenly stopped there they're the ones that you kind of go back you know it wasn't like a coming together you can go maybe it's just the impact and she'll be okay it was off the ball and that's that will be a huge blow for Wales now if she were to be out no definitely and I think um I mean just going back to what I was saying there in terms of sort of Wales and the sort of position they're going into the tournament with not great news on that one but also like give credit to kind of them showing up and trying to absolutely this is a performance despite it being 3-0 that it felt like Wales put their all into like they couldn't I mean people like I think Lily Woodham had a really good game I thought she was outstanding I think Clark made some really good save I think there were very good periods of kind of emergency defending um but there's a really sort of um to put things into kind of context stat here I know you love you know I know you love a rogue and very random stat rage so Netherlands captain Sherida Spitzer has played two more matches in her international career so 245 than Wales have had in their history so 243 I mean that kind of tells you sort of how early I suppose Wales are in their journey in terms of major international tournaments and kind of the the beast in it they I mean I think Wales probably had a better game against the Netherlands than England had against France in my opinion I think they at least did their job yeah but no but like I mean even I think I think England were lucky not to concede more goals to be honest I think we can say France were lucky that England's goal was ruled offside.

43:14If we're going to say, if we're going to pick one team's luck over another. I would still say Wales. I'd say Wales were lucky that the Netherlands

43:22Rachel: hit the post three times. 100%. I just think the way that Wales turned up, I think you could tell that at least they were trying to do their jobs in effect. But I'd still rather lose 2-1 than 3-0. Oh yeah, 100 % all day. But I think, I still think Wales tried better. The stats you've given me is really throwing me. Like, how have a team only played,

43:44Wales did not have a team affiliated with the Football Association of Wales until 1993. Sheridan Spitzer must have started when she was two.

43:52Rachel: Fascinating. This will obviously be a huge relief to the Dutch who came into this first game under a little bit of a cloud after Andres Jonker had a heated exchange with Dutch journalists in his pre-match press conference. So he appeared on a podcast on Thursday and said that he had considered quitting his role ahead of the tournament and expressed concerns over his authority and the support he was receiving. One journalist in this press conference then accused him of creating a puppet show. I mean, not the way that you want your manager to start, you know, it's not the way that you want to start a major international tournament with your manager kind of creating this controversy and this cloud of weirdness going into your first game.

44:32Rachel: I mean, what would you take of this? firstly I can understand him being annoyed because he was basically told uh we're going to replace you but you need to carry on and through this tournament and he didn't want to leave so I can understand being pissed off that like you're like yeah we don't actually like you anymore I think you're good enough but if you could just carry on coaching the team through this uh euros and please do well that'd be great so he's already like annoyed I can understand that I thought the question was arguably bang out of order the amount of shit that journalists in England get for the questions they ask I can't imagine if one of them pitched something like that to Wiegmann I thought his answer was really interesting because he basically implied that this particular journalist doesn't cover them game in game out and only kind of pops up during the big tournaments and that happens with England too and it is frustrating when you'll have people come in who don't normally cover the game and don't know the context around things and just ask kind of questions that are kind of off base because they don't have the wider context this one though like saying that he's creating a puppet show I thought was quite disrespectful so I can understand why Yonkers went off and I actually found that he was he almost used the moment as a galvanizing moment I found like the way he spoke about the team the hard work they put in day in day out how committed the players are how much belief he had in the players how like out of how the kind of approach that this journalist had taken was so wrong because he doesn't see all the hard work that these players put in.

46:00So it almost felt like he was using it as a rallying cry almost for the team to be like, I'm absolutely going to go to back for you and we are going to go out there and show people what we can do. So I found it a very, very interesting exchange. I found it interesting that some people were kind of claiming Yonkers had kind of gone off a bit rather than going, what a question to ask. Because the journalist doubled down as well. Like it wasn't like he went, okay, maybe you misunderstood. He was just like, it is a puppet show. I was just like, oh my God, now I don't speak Dutch. This is all coming through translations.

46:31But yeah, I could, that was a very interesting heated exchange. But there's been mad shit going on in pre-match like before, right before the first match, like Jäglert's being announced as the Man City coach, the Danish coach, like before they've even kicked a ball here. Like what a time to announce it, guys.

46:49Rachel: Honestly, the press rooms have kind of, yeah, I was going to say the timings of some of these announcements have been a little bit rogue. You kind of think that you'd wait at least until after the tournament's kind of completed to kind of make these things known. But I don't know, maybe it's the hype, I suppose, is created by these managers, I suppose, being in and around the tournaments and wanting to get their stats and engagements and figures up. Pick me now before you see us lose every game. Thank you so much. Yeah, or that, yeah. All right, so elsewhere, Poland's tournament debut also didn't get off to the start that they would have wanted on Friday.

47:22Rachel: They lost 2-0 to Germany. Bloody hell, though, they did well. they can hold their heads up. 100%. Like, let's, one second before we get stuck into the actual game itself, because I think, obviously, just to share, like, that little bit of slightly concerning news, Germany suffered a huge blow when their captain, Julia Gwynn, was taken off with a serious knee injury. Oh, man. That was gushing. obviously, like, ruled out for the rest of the Euros. Internal ligament, I think, yeah. Honestly, it kind of feels like there's, like, a boogeyman over her, obviously, missing the 2023 World Cup with the ACL injury.

47:56She's done her ACL on both knees. Yeah, it's just so heartbreaking. And she's so young and still has the impact. I think she has 60-something caps and she's so young and she's been made captain. Like, this was such a big moment for her. I just, like, there's just some players out there where you're just like, my God, someone has, like, a voodoo doll or something. Like, I don't... It's just so unfair. And you could see, like, even the Polish players when she went down were over, like, checking on her. and oh man some players just have the worst luck the worst luck so I'm absolutely gutted for her and it's one of you know it's those moments that happen like even though you're like terrified of Germany and should England manage to scrape their way out of the group and actually face them are a terrifying prospect but you're still going to go I really wish Julia Gwynn was there definitely like I just

48:44Rachel: absolutely gutting for her alright well from all of us at the up front team wishing Julia a really speedy recovery Rach you kind of had a few comments that you wanted to make on the Germany-Poland game and sort of the likeness, I suppose, to Poland and Wales obviously being, you know, debutantes to the competition and sort of how, you know, their experiences, I suppose, were slightly different. So there were similarities in that they were both debutantes, both facing very difficult teams in their opening game, right? But I think what was so interesting about Poland, conversely, to Wales, is they have that target player.

49:17And look, not everyone can have an Eva Peor playing for their team. but to have the quality in that position is such a weapon and arguably she should have done better on the day you know she could have had a hat trick of goals um but for Ann-Katrin Berger and you know some wayward finishing but she caused a huge amount of problems and I thought Poland were quite good in their game plan and knowing what to do and how to use her and it was just it was a contrast in terms of yes both sides have to defend resolutely but when you've got an outlet and a weapon, it can be so dangerous. And the commentators were talking about, you know, Clara Bull and some players who had a really good game.

49:57And they're like, and Katrin Berger has had a really good game for Germany. And that tells you the kind of stress that Poland were able to put on that back line of Germany. So they could cause teams problems in their group. And I think they will be, not that Denmark or Sweden necessarily thought, oh, this will be a walkover, but they're going to be like, put a little bit more thought into this game because, yeah, I think they showed what they can do. And especially against Germany, who at times maybe things didn't look to be clicking, but equally could have had a handful of other goals, but for, again, wayward finishing or saves.

50:33So, yeah, I think they can... Look, both sides can hold their heads up high. They're both coming into very, very difficult games. But I was very impressed with Poland. I thought they were real fortunate actually to get a goal.

50:43Rachel: Watch this space then from Poland, who are kind of maybe the dark horses now of the competition after kind of seeing what they can do against a side like Germany. We'll see. Elsewhere, Sweden beat Denmark 1-0 on Friday night. Philippa Angeldahl scored the only goal. Pinot Harder almost equalised but hit the woodwork. God, that was a boring game. Yeah, not a fan. There's always kind of, none of these games obviously are dead rubber, but there are games that kind of feel that way because there's just nothing exciting that kind of happens in them. Yeah, and I think when you look at it through the lens of a photographer, see what I did there nice I got so little like it was tough shooting conditions anyway it was a 6pm kickoff I had a half shade half sunlight pitch you don't know where the sun is going to be when you're picking your seat you know so that was a lot to contend with but I just felt like there was so little kind of action at times and it just kind of exemplified the the game for me it just wasn't the most enthralling it was a little bit bitty you know Sweden deserved to win they could have scored more they had a goal line clearance from a stina blackstenius shot um but equally lacked that ruthlessness that i think sometimes they've lacked in front of goal and could have dropped points had harder's ball being a centimeter lower um but yeah it wasn't i was quite excited about this game and it wasn't maybe as exciting as i'd hoped sadly but they're going to be those games you know there's going to they're going to happen in major tournaments they're going to be edgy games where teams are a bit you know denmark massively improved from that 6-1 defeat it just felt a little bit almost like neither team they were both afraid to lose they both knew that this is the game they had to win because germany was going to be really tough they're both hoping to beat poland this was the game that was going to be the decider of potentially who comes second and it was there was just that edginess about it so um but in the end deservedly sweden got the three points well this is really lovely to hear actually because my fomo for that particular game was was pretty high but now i feel like actually i didn't miss out on that much um but talks me a little bit about the fans then mate because obviously sweden's traveling support also known as the soft hooligans that's such a lovely mild name um made things a little bit entertaining with some abba based chants i mean what was that like to experience yeah were you getting involved in it and no i was not but they did do a fan march of course which was brilliant as the as did the dutch by the way which looked amazing and but they had these huge banners that came down uh at the beginning of the game when they they did their anthems and stuff and with players faces on it and everything so that was that was amazing to see there's a lovely photo I think Sophie got a really nice photo from the press box of the the banners over the over the fans and the mountains in the background of the stadium so she should be down doing the shooting but I couldn't get that from the ground she was like way up in the stands but um now they always turn up uh Denmark fans less of them but loud so um that was quite a nice like back and forth love that well I knew that there was going to be some kind of like fan interaction and they were going to like bring the vibes to the stadium like they always flippin' do.

53:45Rachel: Obviously there is still so much action happening. It is relentless at the moment. More games tonight. Norway take on Finland today at five o 'clock and then host Switzerland welcome Iceland. I was going to say Ireland then. Definitely Iceland. They surely need at least a draw to keep their qualification hopes alive. Come on. Come on guys. Like stay in the competition. Like it's only good for the host nation to go as far as they can. Come on, you can do this. I'm doing the Norway-Finland game tonight. So I'm intrigued to see how an impressive Finland will do against a not very impressive Norway and whether Norway will have switched things up a little bit and found their feet with that win and whether they'll put their foot in the gas now or whether Finland will be buoyed by their performance.

54:27So that's where I'm going today.

54:29Rachel: Oh, mate. Well, we're back on Tuesday with reaction to the next couple of days of action at the Euros. We'll also preview that all-important showdown for England against the Netherlands on Wednesday. Remember, make sure you hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode throughout the Euros. Thank you so much, Rach, and enjoy the games tonight, mate, and all the Eagle fun as well. Thanks, Chloe.

55:04Rachel: Up Front is a Stack Production. and part of the Acast Creative Network.

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