Inside the WSL's exploding transfer market, with Claire Rafferty

0:29Welcome to Upfront, I'm Chloe Morgan. has been a huge part of Transfer Room, a marketplace for football transfers. So there's no better person to have on the pod to chat the incomings, the outgoings, and provide, obviously, an expert view on it all. Welcome back, Claire. Hello. In the room as well. In the room. Fantastic, lovely studio here. We had a guest, like, in the space. It's so nice. Well, here we go. Yeah, thank you for joining us, mate. No worries. No worries. It's a pleasure. Especially since it's been so busy for you. But I feel like the last few weeks, you've been LinkedIn-fluencing like nobody's business.

1:03Talk to me about this. Yeah, well, you know, if you could retreat, that would be really helpful. We have, we've shared our stories. Awareness. Yeah, super, super busy. Been meeting with, I think I probably met over the last two months about 200 clubs. Wow. So, yeah, lots of interactions with whoever that is within the club, head of recruitment, general manager, head of women's football. Quickly learned that it's very different in different markets. understanding what the key challenges are helping them prepare for the window educate them about transfer market can i clarify for our listeners as well that you're sitting with us on tuesday which is the market the deadline transfer today and you've made time for us which is don't call she's busy always um can i just ask you were touching on that there meeting the various different people are some clubs like is that like all the same person do some clubs have multiple people for each of those roles does it vary yeah it varies so some clubs as the head coach is doing the recruitment is doing the kind of the organization behind the scenes then you've got clubs that have more investment um so the ones that you'd expect the likes of Chelsea Arsenal City um you know Wolfsburg Lyon they've got that infrastructure and that investment so they've got a head of recruitment they've got scouts they've got um analysts who are making those decisions and driving their transfer windows forward.

2:22But yeah, it differs dramatically club to club for sure. Wow. Where's been like the most exotic place that has taken you? Well, we've got clubs signed from South America. So I think I'll... Lovely, you'll have to go. That's top of the list. Yeah. Well, it's needed. Exactly. Exactly that. Follow Corinthians home. Yeah. Honestly. I mean, it was great watching them last week. So that was nice to get that insight. Get on that plane. Be like, you need me. I know. Nice little January bonus, I always think, when you've got those expenses that are racked up from the away trips and you think, actually, obviously, you know you've spent the money, but it's nice to get it all back in one go as well.

2:55That's a little note for anyone listening. I always look at it as like, girl math. If you're struggling through January, just file for your expenses. Let's get stuck into some actual business because obviously it has been so, it's been such a lovely couple of weeks seeing what you've been doing at the company. And you talked about it when you were last on the pod about how wanting to build out this women's arm and this women's transfer room and kind of all the work that was going on behind the scenes. So, I mean, talk to us about the body of work that you've been doing in the lead up to being able to launch this and also like the exciting stuff that you've got at Stamford Bridge coming up with this like great networking event.

3:32Yeah, I wanted to be there, but I was like, there's just, there's no need for me to be in that room. Quite frankly, I'd love to have you. Can we just make a reason? Why don't we do a live pod from there? Yeah, like I'm retired. No one wants me. You know, I can't, I don't have enough money to buy a player. So I was like, Well, you get them expensive then, you might be able to. You can afford me. But yeah, tell us about it. It's been wild. I think, as I know where to start, I think first and foremost, I'm incredibly passionate about the women's marketplace at Transfer Room. I think it has, well, and it will totally transform and evolutionise the women's game.

4:07I think we're well set up on the men's side. So we have 800 plus clubs, 500 plus agencies, all in the marketplace, expanding their network, pitching their players, taking control of the transfer status of their players. And that's what we are introducing on the women's side. So very much about getting clubs excited about what a long-term trading strategy might look like for them, helping them expand their network, understand player valuations, which is one of the biggest challenges that clubs have been facing, understanding who the player's agent is. That's one of the other frustrations. Contract information, There's real lack of transparency.

4:45And then just access to data. Like it's real. There's so many kind of underlying inefficiencies in the women's game and transferring women's marketplace is going to be solving all of those. That's so interesting because that's something that's been lacking massively in women's football for so long is data, data on players. and is it something you were maybe aware of when you were playing or were you not aware of like the lack of information on transfers, values, data? Well, I don't think I've even considered what my value was. I don't know, Chloe, you probably sat there when you were playing thinking the same.

5:19You couldn't put a price on Chloe. What would I be worth if I was to be sold? But I think that is reflective of the maturity of the contracts then. So I had 10 one-year contracts at Chelsea. There was obviously, you know, context-wise very different now. but if a club like Chelsea were to have the marketplace that we are offering now there would have been more vision around offering a long-term contract to players because the likelihood of being able to outplace that player whether it be on loan or for a sale and that's exactly what we've been helping clubs really understand one the data but two what their training strategy could look like for the club you know they need to be more sustainable how can they be more sustainable investing in the players those longer term contracts the players signed on a two year and maybe they want to outplace them after the first year let's drive up that negotiation so that the club can get some income same as loans can they actually replace some of the salary that they've been paying by getting another club to cover that cost those long term contracts have only really started coming into the game in the last few years and I know managers have previously spoken out about the difficulty from a playing perspective of having players in for a year, 18 months.

6:31You know, it's difficult to get consistency to build a project when you might have to refresh the next year. But we probably don't think about how that impacts the value of players. It increases the value. It potentially brings in more money for the club. You know, you're seeing a team like West Ham, you know, selling a player for a record fee. Liverpool spending record money. Aston Villa spending record money. And that's all happening in the January transfer window, which never used to be like such a big thing. Is this like, Can you tell us a little bit about WSL and wider transfer market right now from a January window perspective?

7:04Yeah, I think looking specifically at the January window, I think the big emphasis has been on value. So you mentioned about actually clubs understanding how to value their players. And we've helped a lot of clubs this window with what we call our expected transfer value. And what that actually looks like is we take into account contract length, which is a big influence into that value. if a player has six months or less left on their contract that value automatically goes down to zero in addition to that we will take a look at things like age performance we look at playing data but we then also benchmark historical transfers and take into account the economic buying power of the parent club so lots of kind of factors into that algorithm and you're seeing lots of inflated valuations in fact I spoke to a club yesterday where it was the opposite they actually sold a player less than what they should have because they didn't actually know what the value of the player was, which means less money for that club to then go and invest in other players and internally.

8:07So, yeah, there's lots of moving parts. I think you see the likes of West Ham selling a player. Now, what are they going to be able to do with that money? Are they going to invest it? Have that longer-term vision? Can they bring a player in last minute now? Sign them on a longer-term contract. You see a lot of the likes of Tottenham as well investing in some of those younger players. with the aim of developing them and selling them on potentially in the future. And I think that tactical savviness, so not just about highlighting gaps in their own team and that play rating element of it, how can they bring players in that are actually going to elevate their team, but also how they're going to bring players in for the long term to be able to sell on, make a profit, to reinvest.

8:47That's another element. Sorry to go on about the data, but I find it super interesting. But in terms of additional elements of data, we have what we call like a player rating. So each player has a rating, each club has a rating and each league has a rating. And we help clubs compare different ratings. So one of the biggest frustrations has been, you know, how can I recruit a player from Czech Republic when I actually don't know how suitable they would be to play in the WSL2, for example. With our rating, they can actually use that data and compare that player and understand how suitable they would be for their squad.

9:18And how have clubs been doing this previously? So prior to obviously the work that you've been doing, how have they kind of been trying to put a value and evaluation estimate on how much a player is worth or how much they would pay for certain players because I feel like sometimes and I think we talked touched about this previously that was just sort of like a bit of a finger in the air type vibe or you know how much demand there is around certain players will kind of generate and drive up those those contracts but yeah what have they done before this sort of date this new newer data has become available yeah I think a lot of it has been driven by noise okay um yeah exactly And I think we've seen some of that historically, especially last year when we reflect on some of those bigger signings.

9:55Speaking to the majority of the club, it differs. Some will have some kind of calculation. But the issue is it's not consistent across all clubs. So one calculation is not going to be comparable to another club's calculation. Also, agencies are driving up those fees. How are they calculating their players' value? obviously a long-term contract that instantly is going to increase the value of a player and having to buy that player out. But yeah, it differs greatly. A lot of them don't have that calculation. Some will have a slightly more mature way to value it. But the biggest issue is the inconsistency from club to club.

10:31And that's something that we are solving because clubs have that access to consistent data and valuation data. Well, objective data, essentially. I think we probably underestimate the impact and value of that data because, you know, as you touched on, knowing whether a player will legitimately fit into the format or style of football you're trying to play in a club. Now we're seeing a we're seeing players coming from a lot of different leagues and, you know, people kind of going, oh, gosh, you know, there's players come from here. There's players. I wonder what's kind of driving that. Why are teams getting tactically better?

11:04What you know, and actually underpinning a lot of that is probably access to data. Yeah. And that's something that clubs either have multiple sources of data, which can be really time consuming and pulling that all together and actually, you know, making a decision on the player. But having one single source of truth is kind of the way forward to help accelerate the growth. But yeah, I think in terms of kind of the systems that they use or the data sets that they use, it also is not always accurate. lots of and I'm not going to slate any other providers but I think there's lots of yeah inaccuracies in some of the data so I think in terms of how we use our data yes we will get it from some providers but we're largely driven by clubs and by agencies so the input directly from clubs and agencies and that's why it is a unique marketplace.

11:56Do you get much data from the likes of like a FIFA for example because when we went out to the under 17s World Cup we did a whole thing kind of looking behind the scenes around data that FIFA are involved in and the amount now that is taken in and shared with all of these clubs you know they've got people technical support groups or study groups kind of sitting in the stands and they get you know pages and pages of data now and that must be so valuable to get from under 17s upwards because that's another area that's massively lacking is youngsters yeah especially when clubs are trying to target those younger players to sign them on those longer term contracts.

12:36I think having more access to that information is key. The likes of FIFA, obviously, we get a lot of our global trends and highlights from those publicly available sources. But in addition to that, it is directly from those clubs. So, for example, if I'm a club, I can actually come on to the platform and I can make my player available. By doing that, I'm going to be inputting my transfer fee and salary range. Also, the activity is going to direct a relevancy calculation that we have. So the club in Scandinavia is declaring interest on another player. That all filters into that algorithm, feeds it.

13:12But definitely having access to the likes of FIFA information. I think that they published that last year. The total spend was like 20.7 million. Even having access to that information, we didn't have it before, did we? We couldn't review and we couldn't see what those trends were actually looking like. So, yeah, it just all points in the right direction. Hopefully it can continue to grow. But yeah, I think the WSL in terms of spend is just about nicking the NWSL at the moment. Definitely. I want to talk about that in a second. I just wanted to jump on what Rachel was saying there about the sort of the younger players involved in these transfers now.

13:44Because I feel like, you know, for us growing up, it was less cutthroat. But I feel like there's a personal element to players being or young players, especially being monetized in this way. It's seen as like assets that grow in value over time. I mean, just from your personal perspective as a sort of, you know, an ex-player rather than a transfer room head. What kind of impact do you think that's going to have on the sort of relationships that club have with developing players? Because they're essentially assets in a way now. It's like you're a tradable commodity, isn't it? And that's, it's the sad reality, isn't it?

14:16And I think that transition from when I started playing, you know, that semi-pro to pro, where you had to have a mindset shift in terms of, oh, actually, I am disposable, which is not nice as a human being to feel like that. I think if the clubs invest in that player in the right way and they provide everything they need to provide for a younger player, for example, and what that looks like for the player is obviously between the club and the player and the agent. But I think as long as that player is aligned with what those expectations are and that transparency element is there, then it's an easier pill to swallow, so to speak.

15:09Off the back of that, though, you know, you look at some clubs, they ultimately become sometimes feeder clubs and they generate these great, young, talented kids through their academy and then they get scooped out for nothing yeah and you know we're seeing now academy contracts coming in for young players in the WSL and WSL 2 which they're introducing for the first time from 2026 to 27 because current rules don't allow a player to be contracted and they have to be 16 years old to be on a full-time contract and they're changing that now to be able to allow players to offer them a two-year deal and that they can have if they want and still do like scholarships and stuff for for young players And while, yes, it kind of makes them a commodity, it also puts a value on the work that goes into developing those players.

15:56And, you know, a club will get money back for essentially put that work and a player then is really valuable. And, you know, that kind of probably builds their value going forward, knowing that potentially they were bought for X amount at 16. That sounds terrible, but transferred, you know, so there is a positive side to it in terms of club getting money back for that work. Yeah, there's an element of security for both the player and the club. I think it is really important to ensure that clubs get training compensation, the player gets rewarded for that. And yes, I'm really happy about that actually coming in because I think it's super important.

16:30Having spoken to the likes of the Scottish and the Irish leagues, this is a really big pain point for them. And I'm sure the Scandinavian leagues as well, who are kind of hemorrhaging players to the WSL, having some kind of training. But specifically, you know, some of the Scottish clubs I've spoken to, their biggest issue is retaining that talent and not getting rewarded for the development. How do you grow the league then? Yeah, exactly. So I think there's a whole kind of level of infrastructure investment that needs to go into retaining that talent within the league. But also that comes from being rewarded for developing.

17:07so yes they might lose two or three their top players but actually they then you can use that money to invest in developing that pool underneath which maintains the standard of the league this is so fascinating isn't it honestly me and rachel just spent the last hour just sort of like going into like the crazy the madness of like the wsl and all that and it's like quite nice like sit down and just get your like your head stuck into like something really like cerebral yeah but you also kind of forget how much that will impact the product on the pitch and how a team ends up playing or how you might do in the WSL or how you might challenge these top clubs is like the need for data the need for financial stability to not only be able to be able to afford to challenge top teams but also to be able to get money in for the players that you have developed and that have improved so I mean in terms of windows like January transfer windows always kind of pinned as one of the more difficult ones because it feels shorter you know clubs are in the middle of a season they're trying to work out what they might need some clubs might go god we need the january transfer window and that's going to solve everything and you see a big bit of business you look at like your liverpools manchester united's done really good business this season spurs have brought in big names sam coffey went to manchester city like there's been big money going around in this january transfer window how does it compare to previous i think it's difficult to compare because it hasn't been as explosive previously and i think that is off the back of the momentum that we saw from the summer window.

18:34For different reasons, some clubs being more reactive, having to replace players maybe that they're selling as well. Also, the fight to stay in the league. Obviously, we've got an increase in clubs that are going to be in both the WSL 1 and 2. So I think that element of it is driving that competition. And also, it's like looking over your shoulder. You have to keep your head above water. and I think clubs are more willing to invest because if they don't, they miss out. And by missing out, that means dropping out of the league. And when you sort of talked about the WSL2 there, and they've sort of been seen as a bit more of a breeding ground for talent and a sort of development and a way of getting players to sort of, you know, come into the WSL on these transfers.

19:20Is that kind of looked at as a, not that it hasn't always been an emerging market, but sometimes I think maybe when we were playing, it was like you'd start maybe, you'd get yourself into the WSL1 and then towards the latter end of your career you end up at a WSL2 club but I feel like there's been a bit of a movement from the WSL2 clubs growing developing getting playing time building up experience you know working in a professional environment and then sort of the value increasing there to go into the WSL is that anything you've seen at all? Yeah I think I think that's spot on in terms of the review of where the WSL2 are at the level of investment from those clubs and the willingness to invest outside the box so a lot of the WSL2 clubs that I've spoken to are forward thinking and that may be because they're a little bit more agile because they have slightly less resource so there's maybe one or two people making the decisions they're more likely to invest in things like the the data that they need because they know how important it is that's something that I've seen just kind of from stepping away but I think the overall structure of the leagues and that takeover of ownership has also been really instrumental in terms of what that looks like externally to other players outside of the UK because it's not just about can I pay the player can I afford the salary and the fee but also how attractive is my club and I think that is one of the biggest selling points of the WSL too because it has that increased exposure commercially.

20:47The loan system as well is another area in the January window that we often being triggered in my opinion I don't feel like it's it's triggered enough sometimes like I think some clubs that maybe don't have the biggest budget could probably utilize the loan system a little bit better but it has all that's another area that's also increased though isn't it yeah we saw quite a lot of loans um it's really really important because a lot of these players are coming from clubs maybe that are at a high level to the club that they're being loaned to and there's two sides of it is it for the experience and development of that loanee which is going to benefit that club, that parent club.

21:24Also, is that player going to elevate the club that they've signed for standards in terms of the overall rating and the average within that league? And yeah, I think you've seen the likes of Katie Zellum leave London City, go to West Ham. It was West, yeah, West Ham. I'm confused, there's so many going on in West Ham. But like that's experience, West Ham are bringing experience. So there's many different reasons why a club will own the player. ultimately is to get the maximum amount of value recoup costs and salary. It's not always the case. It might not be the case that the club that has loaned the player in is going to cover all of the salary.

22:00But it's clubs being a lot more financially savvy and trying to aim for that higher level of sustainability. And have you seen any sort of trends emerging? I mean, we spoke about sort of, you know, the propensity towards loans, the propensity to look at the WSL 2 as a bit of a sort of a feeder into the WSL and other leagues too. we've definitely seen a bit of a clear pattern of players coming from Scandinavia of the 35 silenced by WSL clubs in this window at the time of recording 13 have come from Scandinavian clubs literally 4 from BK Hacken 4 from Hammaby IF who are currently 10th and 2nd in the Swedish top flight respectively Spurs alone have signed 4 players from Norwegian and Swedish clubs this January yeah you're seeing obviously that that's pretty undisputable hemorrhaging players aren't they Luckily, them Scandinavian clubs are users of a platform so they can recruit on the transfer market.

22:52Do you think part of that is because, you know, their league is different in terms of when they play to the WSL? So there's more players like available to look at. They're not in the middle of a season. Or is it data driven? Is it access to that now that, you know, managers are going, they're going to be a really great fit? Yeah, I think it's a combination of culture and how well that players have fitted in in the past. into the league. There's not a long kind of period that a player has to warm up to perform. I think it's a well-trodden pathway as well. So it's familiar to the players and the clubs that they're signing.

23:31So I think even the transition for the players is probably easier. And I think the type of player is very suitable to how we play in the UK. In addition to the data, I think they're very forward-thinking in Scandinavia. so they have access to data. And it's proven that the clubs that you've mentioned there in Scandinavia actually use the platform and probably presented some of the data to show the value of the player. They're making themselves too attractive. Literally. But the thing is, on the backside of that, it's around how are they going to replace those players to maintain their own standards.

24:06So there is both sides to the story. But yeah, credit to their own development academy. Yeah. God, there was a period of time that Jonas Inaval wouldn't look at anyone unless you were Scandinavian, really. so it's good to see that there has That's Martin Holt's turn now It was over in Norway and now he's like I know what I want And also management I think it probably makes more sense Definitely We'll go further across the pond then because obviously there's been a lot of interest about the WSL sign-ins the NWSL sign-ins like Trinity Rodman Is she going to come here? Is she not going to come here?

24:34And then Michelle Kang steps in and goes I've got all this money, just have all this money Trinity Change the rules in the NWSL about how much we can pay you Obviously that's been the big headline muse you've got Alyssa Thompson you've got Naomi Gurma coming over Sophie Coffey you've got Cascarino Denise O'Sullivan obviously we're attracting a lot of talent in the WSL but it also is going the other way as well do we think that the WSL has become one of the most attractive markets now to get players into are players being attracted to the WSL more so now than ever from the NWSL I think so but I think it is largely driven by that lack of a salary cap that they have in NWSL So obviously we have the high impact player that has managed to keep Trinity Rodman.

25:19It's one for experience for the players. I was actually listening to something on the way here around the player talking, who came from the NWSL to the WSL, talking about they did it for themselves because they wanted to experience it. So I think there's a flip side of it. Yes, the league is very attractive. You've got more commercial exposure, meaning that you can create your brand in a different location. that personal experience of playing for global brands. And I think when there's obviously not all WSL, one or two clubs are associated to kind of similar on the men's side. But the main talent that's been attracted is to those global brands.

26:00So I think that comes with the reasoning why. Yeah, I think both leagues have unique offerings. and if you play in one, the other one looks interesting. Not so much the grass is always greener. Like a FOMO. I don't think there's too much between them. But I think both things offer something. For a player, you know, the type of football is different in both. The competitions you play in are different in both and I can understand as a player why if you've experienced one, the other might be attractive. I think if I was a player, I'd probably want to experience both leagues and actually, I know we touched on Scandinavia already but like, it's not just players coming from Sweden or Norway.

26:38nordic countries i suppose you know it's the amount of players as well that aren't from there that have experienced that league like that that is a league that has been attractive over the years to other players to experience so it is interesting as a former player like to play in different leagues obviously gives you a lot of yeah additional quality and i think that exposure to those additional leagues like you're saying those scandinavian leagues there has been a lot of movement um and i think that traditionally is aligned with seasons so players you know ending one season and going going into another but i think there has been a pathway and i was just thinking then not to forget the japanese kind of yeah yeah input of players into into the nwso and and the wsl and again a different style of football coming into the league it's great definitely i think um also with the nwso that i always find fascinating so obviously we've seen the emergence of these MCOs in the WSL now and WSL too obviously the NWSL is a more kind of independent led model you've got more sort of creativity you've got more license to do what you want whereas obviously the WSL you've got clubs that are very heavily attached to the men's side have you seen a kind of difference in you know MCOs as opposed to clubs that are affiliated with men's and how they approach transfers and the valuation they put on players because it kind of feels like they have set budgets whereas the men's teams obviously have quite huge budgets that they can play with um yeah is that is there any difference at all um it's a good question so they differ themselves so each mco that i've spoken to separately have different internal infrastructures typically there is one like sporting director that will sit on the on you know above each of the clubs um trying to input the the you know the playing style um which then dictates the the recruitment but I think the conversation is the same they still have the same challenges um what for what might work for one club won't work for another if it's in a totally different country different culture different level of ability to attract players um so although they have a kind of a common goal I still feel like the the recruitment process and the trading strategies are always different it must be different as well if a club is being proactive over being reactive because as important as the data is and you want to really assess whether a player is going to slot into your squad seamlessly when you're being reactive sometimes it's less about that and it's more about I need a number nine that's going to score goals but I think the important thing is being reactive with a plan yes so having a short list of players so having spoken to a lot of clubs this is something that they have lacked so yeah they might be reactive but they actually might be reactive from a list of three players that they've already considered.

29:18This player doesn't end up coming to the club or have it X, Y and Z. So there are some clubs that don't have that at all. So yeah, being reactive is like who's available. But one of the issues is how do you even find out who the player is available? You know, you have them to ring all the clubs. Obviously we've got timelines of transfers. Some windows are still going to be open. Some are going to close. Some free agents. Yeah, it's a mind filled. So can you just go to the transfer room now and just be like striker, enter. see what's available and then you can change it and just be like my budget is not that reduce the budget what you can do in terms of recruitment is you can search for position you can search for transfer window open you can search for free agent have they been made available by their club position there's lots of different parameters finances and then that will bring up a list of players you can then do a deep dive of data research into the data how suitable would they be to my squad if I maybe sign them for a free year what could the potential resale value be after one year two years i would love to see what london city lioness's like um process was if it was just sort of like drop they play football xyz yeah i was gonna say budget don't worry about it i do think it's interesting is there a buy all option literally like when you look at the caliber of players that someone like michelle can was able to bring in because like money isn't an issue there and like whether that's going to kind of trigger any kind of um um as i thinking about what who can buy what and at what price and like whether there is going to be salary caps and like what the financial regulation around some of those things look like i think that's quite interesting um and also i just want to touch briefly on sort of the the commercial value of players because we've talked about sort of you know what they can bring to the pitch how incredible they are you know the demand around the players um but also there's this kind of additional value that's placed on players about what they actually bring to the club in terms of shirt sales and bums on seats and the you know the followers that they have on instagram and TikTok and things like that I mean how do you put a value on those kind of things because like Trinity Rodman coming over to Chelsea I think Sanford Bridge would be sold out probably most weeks until the end of the season despite despite I mean like look at Lucy Bronze Chelsea did not need Lucy Bronze at that time but what she's selling out Sanford Bridge they're not but what she did in terms of like raising the profile around Chelsea getting more people interested in Chelsea like because people are interested in like fat all the fan data that we have is around the loyalty to the player rather than the club.

31:44Exactly. So all those England fans who maybe were on the fence about who to support are now going to Chelsea games. 100%. So yeah, how do you like place a value on those elements of players? I think it's massive in women's football. Yeah. As you mentioned, like the social following, what impact that can have on the club in terms of the potential brands they can bring in, that increased exposure in terms of game time, that screen time. it's absolutely massive and I think we have seen some signings where it is more commercially driven and I think it's smart I think there you know there is an element of the players that have been signed will be bringing something to the squad as well yeah sorry that wasn't like no I know very valuable part of Chelsea in a very right I mean some players some players come with that additional exposure don't they and you are buying are we all thinking of the same player?

32:36yeah I think I think that added exposure comes at a price and I'm sure that is that is represented in the salaries that they're achieving but not just that maybe the promise of those commercial deals that come with maybe the commercial partners that are already at the club or the additional brands that they can bring in but I think it's important because everyone here in this conversation we want sustainability for women's football and if that comes from signing a player is going to bring more exposure then so be it and I think it has to if that you know that potential signing is going to bring more viewers to to the match day experience they're going to you know have more likes on instagram which is going to drive that revenue then then great there was a really interesting fact around when um alicia layman came back to the wsl wasn't it yeah and it was she's a good player though 100 and i don't yeah i don't mean that in terms of like the value that she adds on the pitch like 100 that's never but there's an added doubt but yeah but the the club account grew by like 70 000 followers within like two minutes of like her announcing and i it's things like that i think that that's the additional value that you can't you can't really put a specific value on it but what it does in terms of like the commercial value of the club like hope she got in her contract like i get one percent for every additional follower or something every time you send me if i was her agent i would have done yeah commission per follower if you post me on instagram i get x amount yeah that's great because i'm sure there is that kind of stuff included in the contract definitely gonna have to be thought about now yeah there is no major tournament and we were talking about this before we started recording about you know clubs needing i feel like a number nine for a number of mid-table clubs is really important right now there's only a finite amount of them there's no major tournament where a player is desperately trying to get minutes to try and get into a squad hey world sevens man come on of course um do you think it's gonna make because like i always wonder if there is a major tournament does that make it harder sometimes to negotiate stuff because a player is in the middle of a tournament are they going to be bothered with that so with no major tournament could this summer be different look historically we've seen and this is the direct feedback from clubs that major tournaments drive up transfer value for players so there's always a spike so what we might see or potentially we'll see is a slight drop in players so only spending like a million yeah just a million you know as you do nice small change so I think there'll be a focus on potentially getting deals done earlier in the window because clubs will want to embed those players in.

35:05I mean, that's wishful thinking for any club because they would like to have that whole pre-season. But there isn't going to be any kind of break in that pre-season period, meaning that they can have that consistency. So I'm expecting it to happen earlier on. Yeah, in addition to that, I think the expansion is going to be interesting this summer because clubs are going to have to recruit to be able to compete. That's going to have a trickle-down effect on the pyramid. um and in global markets and yeah i just think the whole growth that we've seen is just going to continue to explode um every year every year biggest year yet it literally is though i think last year we it's like up 83 percent the total spend wow when is that going to stop are we ever going to plateau or is every year going to be the biggest year yet i think it it does scare me a little bit that we're sort of heading to this like the financial sustainability of clubs does scare me what's that yeah i do i do have a little bit of a concern about that in like the best way do do clubs need to be financially sustainable do we go to this model where club valuations are just sort of passed by from owner to owner as kind of investment models or do we just cut things that cut things now and kind of try and get some kind of semblance of regulation around it so it doesn't end up just being women's clubs how do you hold it how do you hold growth it's a runaway train yeah it's a runaway train and I think yeah it's like I'm I'm of the opinion that I'm hoping that it will get to a stage where it grows so much that it will just become sustainable so it will just keep feeling wishful thinking I know it's not if you do the maths it's not but in my head I'm thinking I don't want to be the person that oh that player shouldn't be getting paid that much because they should be and we've we've fought for that for so long 100 % so I'm so like kind of the salary cap is the place of your head the salary cap is is difficult because of that on the flip side we do need to make sure that these clubs can run efficiently a salary minimum and that we learn from mistakes yeah yeah well on that cheerful note yep um no i think the overarching view is that obviously like values are going up these players are 100 starting to uh be recognized for the value that they bring to clubs on and off the pitch um and i have loved like heard like hearing so much more about the data and like the insights that goes behind it all.

37:19I'd love to, we would actually love to be in the transfer room for a couple of days and just understand what you're doing on a day-to-day basis. I just had this like... Oh my God, let's do it like day in the life. Yeah, literally. Do you know what? We've said this a couple of times on pods and it never gets done. So I'll tell you what, I'll bring the office here because this office is pretty nice. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah. I'll just pack everyone in here. Live stream, it's like... In my head, it's like a, I don't know, like a WSL. Or like a minority report where you're like no you're more than welcome to come to the office only in London Bridge I'd love to check up my own valuation really I'll see if the data team can get a historical valuation for you I need to ask for mine and then they said you don't want to see it I know how much it is yours is bad a glass of Prosecco and a warm seat and a football match and you've got Chloe you're damn straight Claire thank you so much for joining us that's been so insightful and I feel like we're going to have to get you on every single year because the position changes every year.

38:15Yeah, we're going to be talking about a£10 million signing in a couple of years' times. Next year. It's crazy. And also, a big note to players out there, get your contract sorted for a year of a major tournament because that's when your value's highest, honey. There we go. Thank you so much for listening to this very special episode of Upfront and thank you so much for Claire's time joining us. In the meantime, you can find us on Instagram and x slash Twitter. I'm at morgy underscore 89. Rach is at girls on the ball and we are at Upfront underscore pod. You can also find us on YouTube at Upfront Pod.

38:47See you next week.

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