Olivia Smith, Michelle Kang's big bucks, and the WSL2 pressure cooker

0:00In 2023, a source sent me a tip. It tied baseball's biggest star to a vast, illegal sports betting operation. Shohei Otani! But then, someone surprising confessed to me. His best friend. I'm Epey Mizuhara, and you do have permission to record me. From 30 for 30 Podcasts, this is The Betrayal of Shohei Otani. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

0:35Rachel: welcome back to up front i'm quake morgan and i'm rachel o'sullivan the off season is almost over how the wsl and wsl2 are almost back so today we're catching up on everything we've missed since the euros which was almost a month ago can you believe it arsenal broke the world record for biggest transfer ever back in july we discuss all things olivia smith and london city lionesses are making waves in the transfer market already those deep deep pockets of michelle kang we take a closer look at their business so far and finally the stakes are higher than ever before this season in the wsl2 we look at how the extra automatic promotion spot is impacting players and clubs alike

1:23Rachel: Rach, let's approach the elephant in the room. We have moved spaces. We are in different premises. Thank you to producer Finn, who's been astronomical in the rise of getting this incredible premium space. I feel like there's an orange glow. You've got a tan. We've got this beautiful backdrop. That's because of Finn as well. We've got these gorgeous lattes that we've had this morning. it's been um yeah it's been quite the welcome back it has and we've given finn all of the credit for

1:50Chloe: this brand new building this brand new studio the everything's good the lighting's good the desks the mics the headphones maybe we sound better i don't know well there's a reason for that and

1:57Rachel: it's because producer finn is now in the studio with us whereas before we were recording in a separate booth and finn was a little bit further away so now we have him watching us about 10 feet away so yeah that's that's good we can't have a cheeky underhanded comment anymore no we can't but we can have a cheeky wink. Nice. How's your holiday been? You look well. You look glowing. You showed me a watch tan. I have proof. I always have to. When you look like me and you're Irish you have to wear something that proves that you've gone slightly less pale. Well we look like sisters now. Yes. Oh yep.

2:30That's it. People won't be able to tell us apart. Just the accent that keeps us apart really. Well your Irish accent has it come along at all or is it still shite? Not at all. No. Okay. I had a lovely holiday thanks. I was in Tuscany it was wonderful I drank all the wine

2:43Rachel: no I saw the really cute photos of you and Soph like out on the town like gorgeous settings like loads of like culture and things meanwhile I was here broken crawling on my arse to the end of the Euros taking a small break and straight into the Women's Rugby World Cup tell you what the Euros was full on wasn't it it was intense and the good thing is we have the minimum amount of gap between the Euros and the season starting needs to be a minimum of six weeks it is absolutely bang on six weeks I agree I think only because we've got this gorgeous women's summer of sport we're now into the rugby world cup the red roses done really well against the usa completely dominating performance but everyone's like stuck into that now it felt like there was a brief moment you had the parade you had all this like escalation and 65 000 people there was about a week worth of like major coverage and then it's kind of tailored off and to me i wanted a parade

3:27Chloe: every week to celebrate what happened that's a lot to ask and the other thing i noticed about the rugby which is slightly different is that it's every weekend so you have like a whole gap where you're like oh you can breathe though i don't know i like it all the time are you going to any of the games? I'm going to try. I'm going to see if I can get some tickets if it works out with weekends and football matches and whatnot. I'm definitely going to try.

3:46Rachel: I think it's that's the overlap between the World Cup and the WSL. Not great. But let's get stuck into the WSL. We're obviously, what, a couple of weeks away now? 10 days away? Something crazy like that? It feels like it's come around so super, super fast. And I think over the summer, obviously, we had the big Euro stories. Now, we're straight into the transfer deals that have been taking place. I mean, big, big, big news. Olivia Smith 20 years old only turned professional in 2023 now July Olivia Smith signs for Arsenal world record transfer one million pounds going into the Liverpool coffers I mean what was your thoughts when you first saw this this um this news probably not surprised that she'd left Liverpool

4:28Chloe: I remember I was talking about this at the end of the season as as to whether we thought she should stick around for another season and I think both of us maybe thought she should just to kind of bed into the WSL a little bit more but equally not hugely surprised that big clubs are coming in for her a little bit surprised that it's the million pound you know still very young wonderful talent wonderful young player and I think it's very much an investment in the future and you know knowing what she can do as she matures in the game but yeah I guess a little bit of a surprise you pay for the potential 100 % when you just compare it to who the previous player was that broke the record Naomi Gurma very much an established like one of the best defenders in the world it's so interesting to see how quickly the game is skyrocketing and you know they you look at Olivia Smith and you think you know two three years time she's already unreal now what's

5:19Rachel: going to be like then 100 % but you think I mean so she Naomi Gurma broke the record with Chelsea in January uh this year 900 ,000 pounds that was paid for her from San Diego Wave and then you kind of look at this transfer now of one million pounds to Olivia Smith and I think obviously there's an element there of like the commercial gain. I mean, Olivia Smith just won PFA Young Player of the Year. Arsenal claiming that. Yes. We are so proud of our player. 100%. I mean, they've done really well in terms of timing. Chloe Kelly picked her up in January. All of a sudden she scores the Euros winning goal.

5:50Rachel: I mean, they're a PR coup. But also just think back to that.

5:53Chloe: There must be some serious sliding doors moments in players' careers. And I remember when we were talking about the Chloe Kelly saga, what she was going through. should she have said something publicly should she not and actually she saw her euro's potential slipping away and she needed to get game time and even then went to arsenal didn't necessarily get loads and loads and loads of game time but my god what a sliding doors moment to she's spoken about it as well but post kind of um matches and stuff but like where she could have been and where she was i just think it's amazing when you think players must look at things like that when they're in difficult times and think like do i make the leap do i make the jump and this could be a sliding indoors moment for Olivia Smith where she said should I have stayed at Liverpool or I've gone to Arsenal now she could look back in two or three years time and go that was exactly the right

6:39Rachel: decision I mean I definitely think it's a sliding doors moment I think but it also depends on what is gonna what what Arsenal's ambitions are for Olivia Smith whether she's going to be starting those games or whether she is going to be spending quite a lot of time on the bench I mean she was getting those regular starts with Liverpool which kind of you know the progress that she was making there seven goals in 20 games obviously winning the award as well I mean been a phenomenal season for her but you almost wonder like sort of Michelle Adjaman and Arsenal I was kind of expecting and we'll get get onto it a little bit later but Michelle going back to Arsenal but then are Arsenal going to give us those opportunities to kind of build off that success Brighton probably was the best move for her in terms of you know staying there building on the success that she already has having those regular starts and growing in confidence so I think it is that that's like do you go you're still a you're a big fish you're probably a medium-sized fish going into a very big pond are you going to grow with it or are you going to get a little bit lost

7:29Chloe: that's my only concern yes and I think and that's the difficult decision for young players when they have these breakout seasons and you think you know do I stay for that extra season to season to really build my confidence and firm up what I'm doing and be the big player in a team or do I take that leap and I'm excited to see how it goes and I think it could be really interesting but we've talked a lot about you know you look at the likes of Chelsea serial winners and one of their biggest strengths is their strength and depth and I think that's something Arsenal are building more of they've obviously got a very deep squad and talented squad but I think that's another thing they're thinking of with bringing in an Olivia Smith they're in all competitions they want to go far in all competitions you know we've seen Champions League winners my god quite and you can see with the likes of a Man City when you get knocked with a couple of injuries you know suddenly you have to rely on youngsters and their youngsters did very very well don't get me wrong but suddenly you're putting them into these really big matches and expecting to well not expecting but you're trying to get through the quarterfinals of the Champions League for example so I'm guessing that's kind of one eye on on depth for Arsenal and and competing on all fronts very well and

8:37Rachel: well and long into competitions I think it's that the expectation on Arsenal feels higher than it ever has before obviously you have the Champions League win but at the same time with the quality and we keep saying this the quality and depth of the Arsenal squad now you're expecting them to be serious title contenders go really far if not win the FA Cup I mean I keep calling it the Conti Cup the Subway League Cup the BLT the Sub Cup the Barclays League Trophy Trophy title thing yeah all of those you're expecting them to do and also to obviously have a defense their Champions League crown next year I think you are going to need that depth there so I think I mean obviously Smith is not going to be a bench sitter she's not going to be sitting on the bench for large periods of time but at the same point you are thinking it's going to be a big It's going to be a big year for you.

9:20Chloe: I'm still kind of surprised that Arsenal are the ones that broke that record. But, you know, I would have thought Chelsea would have swooped in. We've seen in the past where Arsenal tend to flirt with players and show them a bit of ankle when they're coming to the end of their contracts.

9:31Rachel: 70 players on their books. Yeah, but Arsenal tend to wait until it's too late or until they're free. There's not enough space on the bench anymore. Chelsea is saturated. Do you think Chelsea were reaching on the back of the couch for a few bits of extra change?

9:44Chloe: No, I would have thought that they were the ones who would break that record for her. because I just feel like sometimes Arsenal can be a bit inconsistent with their transfers. I'm sure Arsenal fans will come for me. But, you know, when we look back at getting players for free and whatever, which is great, but sometimes you think of the players they didn't get because they weren't willing to stump up the cash before their contract ran out and stuff like that. So the fact that they've gone all in now for Olivia Smith is quite a sign.

10:06Rachel: Well, Smith is very, very happy about the deal. She said, it's a privilege and an honour to sign for Arsenal. It's my dream to compete for the biggest titles here in England and in Europe, and I'm excited to get started and contribute to doing that here with Arsenal. Renee Sleggers said she's an exciting young player. Yeah, of course. Who can make a big contribution. So maybe Sleggers has some big plans involved for Olivia Smith. But we will wait and see what happens there. Michelle Adjeman, we've got to talk about her. I think obviously given the success that she had in basically saving the Lionesses from the clutches of death throughout the tournament, kind of expected that Arsenal would be like, okay great you've done amazing stuff at Brighton you've absolutely been the hero of the tournament everyone loves you come back to mum come back to your parents come on off your trot you had a good time at Brighton you had a good time at nursery but we're all coming back to the Brighton fans will not appreciate that they will not appreciate that I already I already knew for the minute I said nursery that that was gonna that was gonna kick off but for me I don't have a Twitter account so don't come at me don't come at me though you don't need to tell me that you're annoyed at

11:09Chloe: chloe if if she doesn't have a twitter account find her on instagram uh channel all of your

11:14Rachel: complaints uh concerns to at girls on the ball uh michelle as you might have obviously been sent uh back on loan to brighton that did raise a couple of eyebrows there um i mean what were your thoughts on that i've kind of given a bit of a thought about where i where i stand i think

11:30Chloe: it's the right move um i think she and to be honest i would have liked to have seen her somewhere where she would have been the out and out number nine you know i don't i know she did well at Brighton but I feel like I would have liked to have seen more of her at Brighton and I just wonder if you know Leicester are crying out for a number nine maybe you don't want to get down to Leicester maybe there's concern about how they're going to do this season but imagine being the star number nine I think she'd really benefit from that and like the the grit and the fight you'd have to put in at a team like like a Leicester for example um but I'm glad she's gone back out on loan I think she deserves more minutes in the WSL and that's only going to benefit Arsenal it's another example of kind of investing in a player's future and what they will ultimately bring to the squad.

12:10Chloe: 100%. I think... 100 %? 100%. Are you okay? No, I don't know whether I am. It's the first pod back.

12:16Rachel: I've got to get all these teething problems out. Do you know what I was really impressed with? You did the full intro in one take. I was going to say that at the end. I was going to say that after we came. I was like, I wasn't expecting that. If I'm honest, that never happens. But yeah, I do think they've made the right choice. It feels like a bit of a head and a heart type thing. Like your heart is saying, okay well like give her this opportunity to kind of like come back into the squad and like start competing on a you know serious level with some big dog contenders but at the same time your head's going okay well like she's still a super young player let's not just because of the euro success like rush through her progress she still needs to learn you know loads of game management confidence i mean and obviously she has a lot of that already but like let's not rush her progress i don't like clubs thinking that they've i don't know found something and then all of a sudden it's gonna like they're going to go into a different era and I just take it slow take it slow with the youngsters they've still got a lot to learn and to mature as people as well

13:08Chloe: yeah and I appreciate that she would be training with a top squad for example but how is sitting on a bench for much of the season going to benefit her growth and actually playing in a squad where she's more likely to get minutes is just again going to reap rewards

13:20Rachel: I think fans would have been more disappointed had she gone back to Arsenal and spent more time on the bench or only been called out for like the sub cup moments or the sort of like the

13:29Chloe: Those 97-minute winners or whatever it might be.

13:31Rachel: Yeah, and I think Arsenal fans would have been more frustrated to only see a Euros winner being used in that way than we're going to see her pretty much week in, week out at Brighton and continue to develop around a really strong squad. I mean, Brighton were doing absolute business last year. So I think, yeah, for me, it feels like the best option. And I think, like you said, Rach, when you look at Arsenal's full forward options, Beth Mead, Chloe Kelly, now Olivia Smith, Caitlin Ford, Alessia Russo, Stina Blasinias, Vivian Lear. and you think christ like where is she gonna naturally fit into all of that chaos up front so yeah i think um i'm looking forward to seeing her just progress and grow and do it at a rate that's like comfortable and natural for her i mean it was obviously a a great environment for her to learn and she did it so well with bryson last year let's see a little bit more of that before she

14:13Chloe: comes back and it says a lot as well about her that she's so young and still in the wsl you know it's not a case perhaps which is understandable as well that you might go to a wsl2 because it's going to take a lot of practice and to not say championship but to get minutes down there so the fact is she'll still be competing and really high level competition you're nurturing that growth right and then you're going to bring her back and she's going to be even more well-rounded which

14:37Rachel: was possible and also she seems so happy about it as well like the announcement post from her she was like all full of like praise for like the decision and kind of staying with the club and and seeing that through so yeah i think um all round happy doors for me coming up after this we discuss a huge summer for London City Lionesses.

15:06In 2023, a source sent me a tip. It tied baseball's biggest star to a vast illegal sports betting operation.

15:18But then someone surprising confessed to me His best friend

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15:44Rachel: my gosh this club making waves in the WSL and not a single game played yet London City line is completely shaking things up um they're obviously gearing up for their first ever season in the WSL and they have been spending big this summer which isn't surprising given the huge backing that they have from Michelle Kang, her very deep pockets, and the rest of the Canesca squad. They've signed 12 players and they're absolutely not done yet. Last week, their manager, Jocelyn Pritchard, has confirmed they are keen to sign Beth Mead. The rumour mill's obviously been in full swing. Rach, you've got a wry smile on.

16:21Rachel: It tells me that you want to say something quite spicy. So, please drop a bomb. I just feel like saying you want to sign big players, like, you could say that about any player. It makes you sound great. Like, I mean, I'm sure... Carson wants to sign Alessio Russo. I'm sure Leicester would love to sign Beth Mead as well. I'm sure every Liverpool would love to sign Beth Mead. I just, I do think there might be an element of saying, like, I just find it unusual to come out and say, we really want to sign this player. Well, they have reportedly made a formal offer. I'm sure they have. I mean, I wonder what the offer looks like.

16:52Me too. I'd love to know. You'll never know because we never get 100 % confirmation of what a fee is.

16:56Chloe: It's always like, reports say that it's it. The club have yet to confirm. we're not going to tell you how many years contract they have we're not going to tell you how much they cost it's just like

17:03Rachel: just friggin tell us can you imagine Arsenal go absolutely big dog offer £1 million breaking the bank for Olivia Smith and London City go do you know £2 million for Beth Mead oh my god it's pennies it's pennies to Michelle it's pennies to her could you imagine I mean I'd go for it if you were Beth Mead and you were thinking the salary is going to be absolutely insane you've got a real chance here to make it's really impactful kind of you know this is the first opportunity that we're seeing for a club that's not affiliated to a men's team that is completely untethered to kind of the constraints that a premier league outfit is going to have you can literally do what you want kind of write as many checks as you want within the constraints of some kind of vague financial whatever that you can kind of get around because you're a big dog owner with multi-club ownership which will kind of get stuck into a little bit in a second but i mean she's been doing business i mean how impressed have you been with michelle kang so far yeah i mean

17:52Chloe: absolute statements of intent um you know i think we were touching on this before we came on about how difficult it is to get into the WSL and to stay in the WSL. And, you know, every club says when they come up, we're not just coming up to try and stay up. We want to compete. And that's not always backed by perhaps the signings or the ambition from the club itself. Whereas I feel like the investment and the ambitions are clear. Like, yes, they've gone big, but I don't feel like they've gone crazy big. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? They've gone for youngsters and they've gone for experience. players and I think maybe not what's missing necessarily but maybe what's missing a little bit is those players in the middle who are at their absolute prime do you know what I mean so it's I think it's gonna be really interesting um you know very confident teams I've had a chat with some London City Lionesses players um at their media day super confident everyone's really bought into the vision you know they've talked about the facilities they're creating they want them to be absolutely world-class and that's what I like like it's not just to throw money at players we've talked about this you've got clubs who will be putting money into you know their training facilities their pitch is brilliant but you don't necessarily see that on the pitch sometimes you see it on the pitch but behind the scenes isn't matching up and I do think what they're trying to do at London City Lionesses is build both and it is a journey and obviously the sales pitch is is very good because you're seeing an awful lot of experienced players say yeah I want

19:17Rachel: to come on this ride 100 % and I think even when you kind of look at the commercial value of London City Lionesses and kind of them having this that untethered to a Premier League squad and like the freedom that it gives them just in terms of i mean we've just seen the the london city lionesses uh night kit drop i mean it's interesting thoughts it's interesting i was expecting something a bit more dynamic i think yeah i mean obviously it's very colorful it's very different it doesn't uh sort of adhere to kind of any colorways that we've seen in the current wsl which is good because we want something a bit spicier but at the same time it did feel i mean one of the logos the Nike logos were completely different on the kits the photo shoot that they produced with the players was I think they could have done a little bit better with that I think it didn't necessarily scream as premium as I would have liked to have seen but at the same time I think there is this real opportunity to kind of get around the club and kind of see what they can do and how they approach business and kind of how they shape their commercial partnerships and their advertising their marketing when it is just that they're doing it all themselves with a completely blank slate yeah and look we have all said it for years how we don't want the women's

20:27Chloe: game to go down the same path as the men's game we talk about teams over relying on their men's teams and when the men's team gets into trouble the women's team suffers and we want different ways of doing things we look at the nwsl and how it's completely different and you know i think we're very quick to criticize and to judge things that haven't fully played out and you know i'll I'll probably have egg on my face when things maybe go tits up I hope they don't but it's the same with like the whole WPLL stuff at the beginning I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt I didn't want to assume things were going to happen or assume people were going to act a certain way and I'm so I'm a little bit like maybe on the fence I want to see how the London City Lionesses situation plays out I want it to be successful because it's another way of doing things in women's football that doesn't solely rely on the men's game and is everything perfect absolutely not but I'm intrigued if we put it that way I think it's that I think you've

21:19Rachel: there's there is this element of risk that comes with a club like this and like whilst we're sort of giving it you know big beans that we want it to be different like there's an opportunity there to kind of go to this like NWSL model where you kind of have this the freedom and creativity but at the same time you still got to be profitable at some point no one's expecting that I think in the first few years but for sure but I think guessing bums on seats you also got to generate that fan base and you already have quite established clubs in the WS you know especially for London-based clubs when you look at Arsenal's fan base you look at Chelsea's fan base like they're so dominant and you kind of need to get new fans into London City which is going to be absolutely killer obviously they've done amazingly in terms of the transfer window with you know Aslani you've got Nikita Paris you've got Taya Goldie, Frey Godfrey, DVD you've got these big names who are going to pull and like a lot of the research that we did when I first started at Saab was around is there loyalty to players or is there loyalty to clubs and the vast majority of the women's football fan base the the lawyers who does it does lie with players which is good for them and they have made some good signings in that respect but you have to be profitable and i i am struggling to see kind of like how they're going to achieve because it's going to be trying to get fans it's going to be trying to get people down to the the spaces it's going to be getting like buying kits things like that but at the moment i think there is going to be that that struggle with the wages are going to be quite high if you're paying for a dvd nikita paris aslani like the wages are not going to be insignificant but i agree i agree but that risk lies solely essentially on michelle kang right and you know when we look at the men's game and we look at

22:45Chloe: you know a men's club who's not willing to invest more in their women's team when they absolutely have the money to do it and you're like why aren't you investing more like and if things don't go well it's not going to be a massive loss to your budget is it like realistically and they're still not willing to invest london city lionesses have someone who is willing to invest knowing full well it's a risk and I read an article where she spoke a little bit about um you know Silicon Valley and it's like investing in these startups and you know if you get one home run out of 10 investments you're doing well and you know I think so she fully recognizes that there is a big risk there um and I do think that's one of the concerns when it relies on one person's investment that if it if it goes belly up they pull out like and we've seen that with clubs you know that have had a single investor and and they go there they struggle financially and then the club suffers you look at maybe like an angel city who's got a multi-pronged investing investing platform like there's a whole load of people investing in it maybe that's a little bit of a safer route because if one person pulls out you're not completely unstable so yeah it's a very interesting when you've got someone willing to essentially pour their money into but i think the reason she's willing to pour her money into it is she recognizes the value and the worth of women's sport and women's football in general and we need more people willing to invest in women's sport and recognizing the value in it 100 and i think it does feel like a complete i mean she's obviously

24:07Rachel: a very genuine authentic investor i mean we saw something different when we had the you know the coventry situation where we had that kind of like that tech guy who no one really knew who it was but he invested in the club then pulled it last minute left a load of players um without jobs just before christmas that was crazy um yeah it doesn't feel like the same bag like michelle kang's not just going to suddenly pull her investment when london city don't win the in a couple of seasons time. Yeah, but it is interesting to see kind of what that model looks like because I think it will act as a bit of a, as an inspiration, I suppose, to other people like, you know, your Mercury 13s, your other, you know, abroad, you know, international investors who might be looking at this and saying, okay, well, if Michelle can do it with London City Lionesses, there's another way that we can do this with a Nottingham Forest who are coming up or, I don't know, another club.

24:53Chloe: And I fully get the issues around it. And like, people have plenty to say about Michelle Kang I'm not saying she's perfect or amazing I'm not like I'm intrigued to see how it's going to go I think the multi-club ownership could be an issue and I think multi-club ownership is something that federations UEFA is like a UEFA or a whatever needs to look at and if there are loopholes that are being exploited they need to close those loopholes and if it's going to cause we're seeing it in the men's game where teams are getting relegated and brought up and down because of multi-club ownership and it's not really that transparent and it's not really being implemented fairly across the board it's kind of being tweaked and nudged to kind of suit whoever's you know being affected by it so i do think the multi-club ownership conversation needs to be had and i do think you know i was reading an article in rte um which is our equivalent of like the bbc basically in uh in ireland and one of the things they were talking about within that article was what could be done to protect the game when it comes to multi-club ownership and some of their suggestions for example were a three club cap per ownership group one club per ownership group per ua for competition tier clear definitions of control transparency and transfers and independent oversight because it can get murky when it comes to maybe inflating worth of players and selling them internally and you know all that kind of stuff can get a bit murky but we're not there yet well i think well we obviously don't have the the

26:12Rachel: women's game doesn't have the independent financial regulator that the men's game now does um and i think it'll be really super interesting i mean a lot of the men's game what we've seen from you know the Chelsea fines the Man City fines and kind of the penalties that have been imposed on those clubs is that we're yet to see a situation in which like the women's game will be subject to that because obviously it doesn't the financial sort of rules and regulations don't exist yet it's like no one's technically broken anything but it's interesting when you see clubs sell their

26:37Chloe: women's team essentially to themselves to avoid the financial fair play and all that kind of you know Aston Villa have done it Chelsea have done it it's creative accountancy and this this is what I was saying to you beforehand though if loopholes or whatever might be are being exploited close the loopholes talk to the people who are responsible for the the structure and what's in place to protect the integrity of the game they need to be looking at that as well but it's interesting to see the various ways that people are doing things and look if your women's team is a separate entity and what Chelsea are doing they're able to get in sponsorship etc specific for their women's team so that money's coming directly to their women's team rather than it going into the main pot and then you're kind of spreading it out that way so all interesting things to watch and see how they unfold.

27:17Rachel: It's that, does Michelle Kang prompt or trigger a need for independent financial regulation in the women's game? We will wait and see. I mean, obviously, I mean, Vanderdonk is the only London City signing made this summer for one of Kang's network clubs, which kind of does create that kind of iffy situation in which you can kind of buy and move players around and kind of, you know, change values and things to kind of suit the different financial structures within the clubs, which will be interesting. Yeah, it's a wait and see moment. It is.

27:46Chloe: Something I was going to ask you, actually, we've had a great question in from Orpam Lar. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. How do you feel about how seemingly few of their players who got them promoted will be competing in the WSL? And I think this is a really interesting one because you've that balance of a very clearly ambitious owner. They've all spoken about not wanting to just go up and hope to stay up. They very much want to challenge. And we know how difficult it is coming up from the championship slash WSL 2 up to the WSL. but equally all that graft and hard work that went in from the players to get them there it must be quite an interesting dynamic when that happens I know you've experienced that I think um I mean

28:24Rachel: when we were in when we moved up from the championship and bearing in mind this was like four or five years ago now with Spurs I mean we went from a very much a family setting and it became a business overnight I mean results became the absolute ride or die for the managers it was Juan Amoroso and Karen Hills at the time and I think it was really tough because a lot of the players who had kind of got you into the position where you were going out to the WSL and at that time would obviously we'd made history for Spurs so we had this moment where we uh it was a lot one of the second from last game of season in Aston Villa we all celebrated like we'd won the World Cup it was crazy because we'd done this really historic thing it was absolutely wild and then like you have this moment of like two days of like celebrating and then all of a sudden the reality kicks in that you don't know whether you're going to see a contract you don't know whether you're going to be making it professional you you have absolutely no idea if your position safe anymore and I think it really does fill you with a sense of dread that you won't be a part of the continuing history and also there's a kind of like a frustration when you're not like I we when we went from Spurs uh in the championships at WSL we 12 players from the previous squad got contracts and 12 players didn't and those players had been integral like it wasn't just the starting 11 that had got us into we had all played a part in it so to say goodbye to those people and those people were absolutely they were angry and rightly so I would have been had it had I not been fortunate enough to to get a spot um but it does create a really interesting dynamic in the changing room where you've got 12 new players who are coming in you know that you're fighting for their position chances are they're probably a little bit better at you better than you because they've been brought in to kind of bolster the squad i mean i was competing so i was pretty much playing every single game day in day out for spurs in that championship game was a what a big part of like the championship success as everyone was and then all of a sudden becky spencer comes in and i'm like, oh, for fuck's sake, really?

30:07Rachel: Fucking really? Like, can you not just give me a go? Like, can you not just, like, see what I can, like, can you not just give me the chance in the WSL to see what I can do? If I fluff every game and, like, I'm letting in goals, they're front and centre, like, yeah, give Becky a chance. But Becky started pretty much straight away and that was super tough, like, personally to take because I was like, you've not even given me that chance to really, you know, see what I can do and, like, see how much progress I can make in the pre-season. so it is really tough when you see yeah it's just a different dynamic in the changing room you've got to get used to 12 new faces and you don't necessarily there is a little bit of tension i think so it's going to be tough to see how they navigate that but you have to also appreciate that results are key and if it's the best thing for the squad then you have to yeah you have to like

30:51Chloe: put yourself aside and that's really difficult to do where you draw the line between like or how you manage that line between recognizing a player's value to a squad and then recognizing the ambitions of the club and what they expect of you and as well how few games are in the WSL to allow you to even find your feet and that gap then you get a couple of bad runs in the first few games

31:14Rachel: it's it's it's yeah there's no room for sentimentality in the WSL it is results it is business it is money essentially now um yeah so you kind of I understand it now from a now that I've taken and step back now i'm five years away from it but when you're in living it and also it's your full time at the time like obviously i've given up law for this as well so i've given up law to sit on the bench essentially and just like wait for a champ like a bench like a connie bench yeah not not not in the rcj anymore chloe definitely not hold up yeah but yeah it was um it was definitely tough so i thought yeah thoughts of those players who have done the business to get them there but they will be taking a back seat but your place in the squad is no less valuable and you will always be remembered in history for doing that for the squad and i think that's the that's the thing that

31:57Chloe: i've always taken away from that yeah and i think it's a bit like london city lionesses generally everyone talks about them as if they only existed when michelle khan came around and they didn't you know they were there before they you know yeah and they needed to be there in order for there to be a business worth investing in so you kind of can't forget where you came from 100 %

32:13Rachel: just it's your place you've no one can rewrite you from the history books coming up after this the wslt prepares for a new era

32:28Rachel: so some big big changes ahead in the wsl2 slash championship we can't forget that uh the season two teams will be automatically promoted from the championship slash wsl2 and the third place team will have a playoff against the team that finishes last in the wsl these two automatic spots are only on offer for this season one season and one season only take your chance because the WSL is expanding from 12 to 14 teams for the 2026-27 season by that time the WSL 2 will then just have one automatic spot and one playoff spot so this season is a massive opportunity for Leicester to stay in I love how we've just picked Leicester Leicester fans are gonna be rage you're gonna have them all after us and I think this is a really like we always talk

33:15Chloe: about the WSL 2 our listeners are going to get really irritated with us but I'm finding it really hard to say it because I was there when the WSL 2 existed and then they scrapped it and now they brought it back again. I think they should have just kept hold of that marketing gear and just like wheeled it back out again. It could have been vintage. It would have been better. It would have been probably nicer

33:31Rachel: than the band than they currently have.

33:33Chloe: Anyway the point is it's almost like not quite a free hit but if you're going to invest and get yourselves up to the WSL you've essentially got three chances which is is rare and like it's not gonna and we've talked about the bottleneck that WSL 2 has been in the past and how you've got you'll have multiple clubs really going right we're gonna go for that one spot and there is only one spot so you know the fact that there's now three opportunities equally it's a little bit of a safety net for the WSL for your London City Lionesses for example their first season in the league they've a bit of a safety net I think Palace were like oh god if we just hung on if we just just hung on for one more year because essentially everyone's assuming that whoever comes bottom will beat whoever comes third in the WSL 2.

34:16Chloe: That'll be a great game to watch. It will, but I also think... The first WSL Championship playoff is a great game. I can't wait for it already. Some people are a bit like, well, this is basically no relegation. They've just dressed it up. But, you know, I also think like a single game, a one-off, you know, anything could happen. Obviously, the favourites will be whoever come bottom of the WSL 1 when they come up against third place WSL 2. But you never know if it's a super competitive WSL 2.

34:43Rachel: you know anything could happen well i think that's the thing isn't it i do think it is a super competitive women's championship like we saw how close to the wire it came on on the last day last day last year um and i think the teams obviously and we'll get into sort of the transfers and things that have been made but like some of the championship squads i think would give the likes of the bottom of the wsl a good run for their money and i think there is that underdog mentality that i don't think you can take away from squads when they're in a position so it's it's a fight it is a 100 fight it's like a euros final like it could go either way based on a moment and i think that that i quite like the jeopardy of like 100 and we've seen in the past

35:19Chloe: you know three four weeks from the end of the wsl2 when it was the championship you still had four five six teams who realistically could have won it imagine as we come into the last kind of month of the WSL2 there could still be that amount of teams that could reasonably point apart could be getting one two or three spots so there's going to be I mean already an exciting league but I just feel like the last kind of run-in is going to be insane because you're going to have potentially quite a few teams who could get one of those spots and it's just going to be very very spicy

35:51Rachel: and I think you have to put into context like how these teams are coming to the table for that playoff game you've got a championship team will have been winning the majority of their games to be in that third spot and you will have a WSL team that's lost the majority of their games to get into that relegation spot so you're coming at it from a place of confidence and no confidence

36:08Chloe: in the wrong way yeah and it could be a case of like a WSL team who's ended up at the bottom they've struggled with injuries players have been out they found themselves like unable to pick up points where it's really mattered conversely you've got a team who's probably managed to stay pretty fit throughout because they've managed to get themselves to that third spot like there's just so many things at play for a single game that yeah i just think i just wouldn't assume that how that game is going to go personally to assume makes an ass of you and me you said it thank you uh that isn't my quote i won't take uh credit for that one uh but we won't we won't credit einstein either i don't think it was him but that's another name you can't pronounce along

36:46Rachel: with friedlina rolfe this is a great first pod um all 12 teams in the wso2 are now completely full-time for the first time ever this year which also adds an additional element to the fact that these players are going to be given the right resources the right time to kind of really hone in and focus on just one thing which is football which is amazing but that also kind of adds to the drama that could be created with this playoff position um let's get stuck into a question from kez on instagram she said or he i don't know yeah or they kez well they're a movie kez about a bird is Kez a bird? Kestrel yeah Kez maybe it's a bird we've lost the plot who do you think has made the most meaningful investment to come up into the WSL by the end of the season we've obviously had Jordan Nobbs released by Aston Villa signed for Newcastle two time World Cup winner Morgan Goutra has also just joined Newcastle on loan until the end of the season Rio Hardy swapped Rangers for Bristol City Rach who do you think has been doing some transfer tracker business

37:46Chloe: there is a lot of movings and shakings in WSL too I think the ones that have caught my eye the most is probably Newcastle United and Nottingham Forest Not Bristol City Bristol City as well for sure but I just I think them too I've been quite surprised particularly Nottingham Forest it feels like Nottingham Forest have gotten in and gone we're going for it we are going for it there are three potential spots definitely two to get into the WSL we're going for it and I've been super impressed because Nottingham Forest have just come up that's what I've been so impressed with and some of the calibre of players that they've gotten Deanne Rose Rachel Rowe Chani Boyalorka Kirstie Smear yeah just Chloe Mustache Amy Rogers from Bristol and then yeah you look at Bristol they've had to replace a few key players as well but there's just been a lot look at this transfer tracker please check out Girls on the Ball that has been a saving grace of me this pod to like keep up to date with the WSL2 stuff Sophie unbelievable that's all Sophie's work yeah there's just been a lot what I've been kind of surprised at is the outgoings at Birmingham okay versus the incomings and I'm just surprised because Birmingham were that's a long list they were the ones you know right up at the top with London City Lionesses right down to the final day that was a great game it was 9 ,000 people turned up for that imagine now there could be at least three games where you've got that kind of like you could go up 100 % but yeah I've just been quite surprised at their outgoings and they're going to need to do some business I think if they're going to be challenging again I'm trying to literally count

39:15Rachel: 9, 10, 11, 12 13 I'm counting 14 15 out outbound from Birmingham City with only one two three four five coming in that's a completely different squad it's going to be very interesting to see how they they get on this year I think for me I think I think Sunderland have signed half the Irish squad I'm delighted up there I feel right at home is that gonna be your second team this year nice uh I would say Bristol City for me have done absolutely business I think it's been really lovely to see Charlotte healy uh obviously coming over from being the uh the right hand man of mark skinner previously at manchester united um yeah she has been and i've had a couple of conversations with charlotte absolutely amazing great tactics um and i think it's good to see like her getting this opportunity to kind of manage the team already doing massive massive business in the transfer window you've got sophie ingall from chelsea vicky lasada esther morgan from sheffield united gemma lawley like these are all kind of a bit of a mixture of kind of again like what you're saying jones youngster on loan yeah experience and also youth and i think bristol city have this history don't they of going up into the wsl going back down to the championship and i feel like this is a great opportunity i'd be surprised if we didn't see bristol city in one of those two three in those in one of those three spots um for for this season yeah what do you what do you think for this season if you're going to call three spots i won't even say one two or three i'll just say three all together who would you say is going to be sitting in that newcastle nice bristol yep

40:41Chloe: the third one I find is tricky and I feel like the third one might be one of those where there's three or four teams vying for it. It's like a Champions League spot. Yeah, well honestly like and you know, good. It's great to have like another thing to fight for. Like you don't want to write off the likes of your Sunderlands and your Durham's. They could definitely be up there and I think that's what's been really interesting about the championship the last couple of years is the fact you've had five or six teams pushing right to the very end. There was one year where there was eight teams that mathematically could have won the league with about four weeks, five weeks to go.

41:12So that's the one

41:14Chloe: that I'm really struggling to pick. Maybe I'll just go for like a Sunderland and use my Irish. You're not going to put your flagpole in the sand. I'm going to put my Irish flagpole in the sand. I'm going to go Sunderland. I think Noughts are going to push and be a real surprise in their first league and it'll be incredible if they got one of those three spots. Do you know what? I'm going to go Irish and go Sunderland.

41:32Rachel: I'm going to say Bristol City. Yeah. I'm going to say Newcastle and I'm going to say Birmingham. Sure. Yeah. I think it's going to be a transitional season. for them but i do think they there's a lot of success for them to build on this year um thank you so much for listening to up front absolutely amazing to be back with you rage and also in this beautiful new studio with your lovely everyone watches the lionesses i won't wear this every week no i think you can i think i need to get better at my t-shirt games a plain white t-shirt it now smells a little bit because i cycled in which is a really bad i know i'm sat next to you

42:02Chloe: really bad thing to do it's actually probably just as well we're not in the booth yeah i think it

42:05Rachel: would have been quite intense dense in there we'll be back next tuesday with our wsl preview which We are recording slightly early this Friday, in fact. So please get your questions in before then. We've had so many already. So thank you to everyone who has sent one in. We're going to try and answer as many as possible. In the meantime, I'm at Morgie underscore 89. Rach is at Girls on the Ball. And we are at Upfront underscore pod. See you next week.

42:44Rachel: Upfront is a Stack Production and part of the Acast Creator Network.