Our Euro 2025 Final Preview! | Euro 2025 #14

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2:28Rachel: welcome to up front i'm cloy morgan and i'm rachel o'sullivan the final of euro 2025 is upon us i have lost my voice rachel's lost her mind and we have such an exciting matchup england the reigning champions versus spain the world champions will england defend their title or will spain become European champions for the first time ever. Today we're going to look back on both teams journey to the final before focusing on that all-important 90 minutes tomorrow. And we are delighted to welcome a special guest onto the pod. Not only do we have one Rach, we have two Raches today. It's England legend and BBC co-commentator Rachel Brown-Finnis.

3:12Rachel: Rach, it kind of feels fitting that we've got you back on the pod. The last time you were on the show was when we were obviously recording on the steps of Wembley hours after England had lifted the trophy it was chaos everywhere there was scenes I was drunk it was it was just bedlam everywhere and it was hours after you just commented on that game um let's talk about England Spain tomorrow squeaky bum time it's fair to say that the England Euro campaign this year has had a few ups and downs a few more than 2022 at least do we think it's kind of been a mixture of luck and resilience or do we think actually this is england who have you know overcome challenges overcome barriers and actually this is just the nature of tournament football like it doesn't always go your way but you find ways to win and you you just get the job done even if it's not particularly pretty did did you say luck yes i did i did throw that word in there i knew as i knew it's a trigger word i know it's a trigger word i'm not trying to you know it's early morning i don't want to set the day off should have heard what you said before we started recording rbf yeah you wouldn't tell me would you um genuinely I mean what's the famous saying you get luckier as you work harder or something to that sort of um sentiment and I truly believe that sort of fully aligns with what the Lionesses have shown they've obviously the start of the tournament was not great we didn't play very well we were put on the back foot by France early doors and and didn't get the results.

4:39But that put us in a position where we had to go on and win every single game. And it's been knockout football since that point. And I think sort of what we've shown as Lionesses is they're up for the fight and whether it takes a fight, whether it takes a brilliant game of football, like we saw against the Netherlands, where it was almost a flawless game, both in and out of possession. Whether it was against a team that we were expected to beat, like Wales, we went out and got that done. and then it got into the true rounds of knockout football in the quarterfinals, and that was proper squeaky bum time, wasn't it?

5:14That game against Sweden had absolutely everything in it. But Rachel had been out here the whole time. Watching Spain, everybody was like, wow, aren't they amazing? Don't they look brilliant? Are they going to cruise to the final? And in some respects, they sort of have. But actually, I'm looking at our parallel journeys of England to the final and Spain to the final, and I'm like, we've learned a lot about ourselves we've learned a lot about how we can play what happens if we don't play to our best um and we've come through all of those challenges whereas Spain are almost kind of like not really had a glove laid on them that the game in the in the semi-final was the first time really that a team genuinely caused them too many problems and that was I feel that's that's more down to the opposition than it was to them playing sensational football that's why i put england as favorites going into this game because we've we've kind of like we've been living knockout football for what feels like a month you know pretty much straight away after that first game and we're sort of ready for whatever it takes to go on and win that game so we're both on the same

6:23Rachel: team here i have england in the uh in my little um office pot and there's about 30 pounds riding on it so it's quite serious stakes to be honest yeah it's pretty it's pretty big but rache is a bit of a believer in spain so rache i mean jump in here because you know me and rache are on the same page with this one to be honest mate oh are you sure you don't want me to tell her what you said just before she came on look what we what we talk about in the pod before the pod starts is the pod's business okay i don't feel part of it unless you've told me what i believe the word jammy was used um and if england won that that would be the case um yeah i didn't think you'd like that so we're definitely not on the same page when it comes to that Chloe and I think I'd said Spain from the beginning because I think we thought England would probably maybe top the group and if that was the case it potentially meet Spain earlier so when we have to pick I said head said Spain heart said England so and that's why I know Chloe's desperately trying to throw me under the bus here but I don't think it's going to work and because both teams that we've chosen have ended up in the final so we've done something right and actually RBF I was going to ask you how have you found like being on this side during a tournament where it's not all you know sunshine and roses for England how have you found it from the media perspective you know sometimes especially with England not playing well and then when they do play well it's often not because England played well but because the other team didn't play well like how have you found that as a former Lioness and now pundit?

7:44I found it quite jarring actually I'm not going to lie because journalists are sort of writing the narratives around you know is Serena still kind of good enough for the title is you know should she make changes uh to the back line should you know Michelle Adjaman start the match she's earned a start why is she not starting and you know they're just a hat and I'm like we're in the final guys like they Serena Vigman has pulled out every trick that she's ever learned and not trick but you know scenario based um responses that have been planned that have ultimately been really well executed and that's why we're in the final and I just I can't quite get my head around it but what I've learned I've accepted that once you've been sort of you played international level you start you played in in the final like I have in the euros that way there's no wavering of belief like you're one nil down at half time you're two nil down at half time there's always like experiences or usually experiences either you personally can draw on or someone within your team or squad can draw on to relate to a positive outcome um you know we've heard like lucy bronn sort of saying you know we've been in this situation and and her having that that experience to have that rallying crying serena veigman you know i think it was um ella a tune talking about the inspirational team talks and half-time talks you know it doesn't just happen by accident and and it's not there's no fault it's the fact that we're playing against i believe winning the euros is harder than winning the world cup i genuinely believe that and i fully believe and fully invested in the structure and everything that serena viegman and staff have put together because those girls are not out there fighting because they're just individual fighters they're out there because the environment that's created by that squad by Serena Vigma by the staff has brought them together has brought them to be united has brought them to want to fight and leave every little bit of blood and guts and effort on the pitch foot for each other that doesn't just happen and I'm not sick of journalists trying to create sort of like things on the side but I'm like let the girls go out and play football because they know what they're doing you don't

10:03Rachel: Oh, you've got to have this little bit of dramatic narratives around the tournament, though. I think me and Rach talked about this on the previous pod, like where the expectation of what the Lionesses, how the Lionesses should win, is now so high after Euro 2022, because we did see really dominant performances quite like throughout the tournament. Obviously, you know, that was three years back. Things have moved on, teams have got better, tactics have changed. We've got a new squad. You know, there's all different factors that kind of vary that up. But I think the manner in which tournaments are won now seems to be something that people are super, super interested in.

10:33Rachel: I mean, we had so many, there was a lot of negativity even around the Women's World Cup in 2023. Like some of the games didn't go to plan. We saw a lot of people saying, well, you know, this isn't good enough. We've won the game, but we've won the game, but we should have done this X, Y and Z. And then we're seeing the same narratives, I suppose, repeated in this tournament where it's not always pretty. There have been some last gaffes of attempts. There have been emergency defending. There have been game plans that haven't been completely executed in the way that we'd have liked to. But at the end of the day, I suppose, we are still in a final.

11:02Rachel: is the third successive final. We've only been to one final ever before we won the Euros in 2022. We'd never got to World Cup final. We'd never, we got to the one Euro final in 2009. We got battered by Germany. And we probably at that point sort of didn't really believe that we should have got there. Whereas this team in 2022 went out and done something that had never been done before. Senior teams never won the Euros before. I mean, I can't wait to see the two teams go toe to toe and bring that contrast of styles. like bring on our fight and our grit and our elbows and our knees and show everybody at home, show the world what a brilliant team we are, not just on the pitch in 90, 120 minutes when it counts, but also off the pitch, because I think this tournament, how we've conducted ourselves off the pitch, how the Lionesses and the staff have dealt with issues off the pitch, how they've continued to show how united they are in their own bubble environment and how concentrated and focused they are just on what they can do and being able to shut out all of the outside noise.

12:08That's all part of being an elite level athlete, but they've proven time and time again how relaxed they are, how calm, how assured they are and how focused they are on going out there and winning tomorrow.

12:20Rachel: What have you made of Spain? I know you've touched them a little bit there, but you commentated right on their group stage games. And then I guess that Germany game was a big moment for them, beating Germany for the first time, getting to a Euros for the first time. Do you think that will boost their confidence as well, that they've been challenged and still come through? I think so, yeah, it will do. I think history caught up with Germany, you know, because having never beaten Germany in this sort of, in 2025, you go, well, Spain have probably been consistently better than Germany for a few years but you know germany have been powerhouses the women's game for so long um i think there will be you know it's a moment of history for them it's a moment of history for them to get to the final of the euros they've never done that before so they're almost in the situation that england were you know um three years ago having an opportunity to to make history against players they're relatively familiar with you know this is the new rivalry this is the new for me you know like take the usa almost out of it take germany out of it in some ways take sweden out of you know what say five six certainly when i was playing 10 years ago teams we'd never beaten before teams who you know we'd go in as the underdogs and that's no arrogance that's not overconfidence that's just sort of factually you know england have now beaten all these teams and so shouldn't fear them should go out with the shoulders high and go out thinking we we've done it before we know we can beat them we all we also know how to beat them with a england the last team to beat spain uh back in february and um and we've seen england being able to employ sort of different tactics bring on different personnel set up in different ways play with three at the back play with four at the back play with none at the back pretty much in that last game um and uh and come out with on top so yeah as much as spain will will be confident absolutely going and this will maybe see it as like an opportunity for revenge for the Euros.

14:19So might England, you know, because they nicked that World Cup off us.

14:22Rachel: It does kind of feel like the England-Spain results have been very flip-flop. One time they win, one time they don't, one time they win, one time they don't. So I think going into this fixture, it does feel very evenly balanced. And I think we always say in tournament football, when it comes to a final, it doesn't matter what's gone on before, the slate is wiped clean. This is the only game that matters in these 90 minutes. And I think, like you said there, Rach, there's a couple of ways that we do feel like at least England can exploit some of Spain's very few, very rare weaknesses. You know, we've seen it happen in the tournament before.

14:52Rachel: You know, they have conceded goals and they've conceded goals that they shouldn't really be doing. You know, like it's so what do we think is going to be the kind of tactic that England are going to employ to sort of get at Spain? I mean, we had some really good questions in from our listeners last part about, you know, whether we're more comfortable out of possession, whether we kind of just, you know, go on those chances, the rare chances that we might get to actually counter them on the break. or do we, you know, capitalise in those moments where Spain push forward and kind of commit a lot of bodies forward and kind of then we can go in behind?

15:20Rachel: I mean, what do you think is going to be the kind of, if you were managing the team, what would you be saying are your top three tactics for how England win this game? Not to put you on the spot. I'd go to Arjen and say, Arjen, what did Serena tell you to do? And I'd make sure that was done. I think you don't have to be a massive football expert really to show, sorry, to see the vulnerabilities of Spain. And by the way, I'm sick of everyone talking about the Spain midfield and that's where it's going to be won. I'm like, what about our midfield? We've got Kira Walsh, who's played for Barcelona, who's one of the best midfielders in the world, just sort of quietly goes about it.

15:59And I love Aitana Bonmati. I think she's an amazing player. I think she's a very humble and very fantastic role model for any young player. but you know I'd back our midfield we've we've also got Ella Toon's been brilliant this tournament George Stamway has just run her legs off and that they're sort of the way they recognize where they need to be both in and out of possession because they recognize that they're not always going to be it's not always about them on the ball so as a three I think they work so so well recognizing where the other one is where the turnover is and therefore where they need to be to be able to shut off channels or to be able to apply pressure or to sit and be a little bit flatter.

16:40I don't think it's going to be one or lost in midfield because I don't think, you know, one will overpower the other. And so Spain have looked, where you can get at Spain is with that high defensive back line that they have. Irina Paredes, yes, she looks dangerous on attacking corners, but I think the ball in behind kind of exploits or certainly it puts England forwards at an advantage. She's not slow, but our forwards are faster. She struggles with direct runners sometimes. She does. So we saw that against Germany, didn't we? Either off the left-hand side with Jules Brown or Clara Bull coming from left to centre in that run and that ball kind of played down the middle.

17:22And what I'd be looking at as well, because Katakoy, as you do, Chloe, and I know you'll know this is a top-class goalkeeper. you know when the defense the goalkeeper she takes off sometimes isn't she yeah but the goalkeeper's got to go high as well and almost keep the same distance between goalkeeper and defender so the higher your defense go the higher you go as a goalkeeper mate if i was looking like george stanwick kira walsh lucy bronze they've got all got the ability to see catacole off a off a line and go do you know what i'm fancy my chances against her and what that does even if once do it once maybe do it twice it's going to pin Catechoy back a little bit and then that gap between the goalkeeper and the defence gets a little bit bigger it might get a yard or two bigger because Catechoy is aware that a long shot might come in and then that gap is bigger and that gives more space for our front runners to run into

18:16Rachel: This is the thing as well is like everyone always says you set up defensively against Spain and you've got to be really defensive and you do you need to be disciplined in your positioning because you're not going to have a lot of the ball but you can't like sit back And I don't think we expect necessarily England to sit back. They need to be defensive from the front, right? Like they need to be that high press, yes, but you need to be winning the ball higher up the pitch, not like waiting and inviting Spain all the way back into your box. No, absolutely not. I mean, you don't want a particularly high line.

18:40You just want your normal sort of back line. Like, you know, I keep saying like Germany did. It wasn't an exceptionally high line. It wasn't an exceptionally deep line. It's just backing yourself to defend against teams. I think we've had a few fluctuations in our back line during the tournament, partly down to the opposition that we've come up against. Whatever reasons it's been, it's worked ultimately. And yes, it hasn't been perfect, but we found ways to screen in front of the back four to cover when we've had wide players who've been on the opposition being sort of like their strengths. We've been able to completely nullify it.

19:24I mean, look, the game against Netherlands, people were talking about, well, Bernstein didn't start, but the Brooks, Esme Brooks, the full-backs bombing on forwards. They might as well stay in the changing room. You know what I mean? They had like no joy whatsoever. And so, no, I've no doubt we can't sit on our own. We can't camp out on the 18-yard backs. Absolutely not. And we wouldn't do that. We back ourselves too much. We're too good of a team to worry excessively what Spain are going to do to us. So we have to back our game plan. We have to back the compactness of the defensive unit with midfield and the forward line.

20:01That's been brilliant, I think, throughout the tournament. There's not been huge gaps between any of those units. And so if the ball is played through from the front three, we want Alessi Russo to keep pressing because she's done such a kind of, you know, sometimes a thankless task, but it's not a thankless within the team because her pressing means that that next pass is more predictable because she's pushing them one particular way, which allows our midfield then to predict more accurately where the ball's going to go. And it all has that knock-on effect. It's not just running around doggedly.

20:34It has a purpose. So how England needs to play for England's play, as they are doing continuously. I don't think there's any magic formula or magic recipe to counter Spain. England, it's more about England, in my opinion. If England come out front-footed, back in what they're doing, you know, I'd love England to go ahead for once, for one time in this tournament. Just let us, like, chill just for a little bit and just sort of enjoy that lead. But, yeah, it's just as much about focusing on, well, more so, focusing on England's game plan for England to win the game than it is worrying or considering what Spain do very well and how to counter it.

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23:14Rachel: we've got a good question in from uh wsl se on blue sky who said hannah hampton can kick it a long way with precision should she do that with gold kicks against spain rather than england trying to build from the back and what have you made of hannah hampton's tournament so far i think hannah hampton's decision making has been brilliant so you know you're talking about playing out from the back as a goal kicks. That's not something you have to do every time. You know, that is a principle that ideally, if it's on, if it's looking to build through the thirds and looking at the opposition's press, it's doable and we think it'll be an advantage, you do it.

23:52If it's not, and it's going to put you in the shit and it's going to invite pressure and you're looking at the state of the game, not just that individual snapshot of how players are set up, that's what I think Hannah Hampton's done really really well is managing the game particularly it sounds such a simple thing from goal kicks like go short or go long well actually there's a lot of things to sort of process to go right this is my decision um so should she shouldn't

24:16Rachel: she that's there's no answer to that in terms of starting 11 because we've had some of our listeners messaging in the last chat about understandably Ajimang and Kelly and how they should start and we've discussed why we think they're more impactful from the bench and what a weapon they are that they provide for the team. I feel like you're on a similar wavelength when it comes to that. And also we've got to factor in that potentially LJ is not going to be fit to start. So it's another thing that we have to contend with as well. So do you see many changes? No, I don't. I think you mentioned personnel would be for me the only reason to change the start and line up.

24:59if Lauren James isn't I mean how great was it that she played full 120 the other night and she said she surprised herself by playing 120 minutes so that's brilliant that she was kind of pushed to that point but then obviously came off in the last game after 45 so what that was not sure she got a knock I think in the ankle in the Sweden game and the Italy game yeah yeah yeah so I reckon she'll be fine that's just my own gut instinct because who doesn't want to play in Euros final and I'm not implying that she wouldn't want to of course she would so should everybody be fit then I think she'll keep the same starting line up as the Italy game and keep with the formula it's served us so well maybe a little bit earlier well

25:47Rachel: maybe not 86 minutes I mean I have sort of slipped a little note under Serena's door saying please please please can we just get this done in 90 minutes and therefore if you could make your substitutions at 70, 71, that'd be great. I mean, talking of subs, we absolutely have to give a little bit more flowers to Michelle Adjuman. I mean, me and Rach have absolutely gone to town on how many accolades and how much just love we can throw to this kid. I mean, 19 years old, only turned 19 in February, comes on in two of the most pivotal moments of a game, weight of expectation on her shoulders and delivers the performance of a lifetime at that age and kind of does it in such a way that you think she was just having a kick about.

26:32Well, obviously, I'm a mum myself of two kids and I just, you know, I'm sat in the semi-final. I was sat with all the friends and family because I wasn't working on that game, but sat there and so sat literally like two rows behind, directly behind Michelle Adjumang's family. And they were just so calm and so sort of you know kind of well done and you know you think that's where you know they get it from they're obviously a very sort of considered family um it was but just that feeling of how I would feel with my kids achieving something like this it it just it makes you feel quite emotional about it and what I do think will has probably helped uh Michelle Adjaman there's been no expectation come to into the tournament people weren't writing about oh is this the new superstar who's going to lead england to um potentially winning the euros you know there was none of that expectation or weight or anything that would hamper our performances and it's it's absolutely shown you know the lionesses have talked about how much they're in a bubble in camp and they just talk to each other about um about kind of the stuff in in camp and about preparing for the game and are not sort of ready to burst the bubble yet to get out into the real world.

27:54And that is only helping both Michel Adjermang as well as some of the other young players who are making their debut. And it's lovely, isn't it, seeing that symmetry between Alessi Russo playing the Ellen White role and Michel Adjermang moving on, just like a conveyor belt, into the role of Alessi Russo from 2022 and becoming that next superstar.

28:18Rachel: It must be quite like, there must be a huge amount of confidence though as well for her, because I imagine she came in maybe not thinking she'd have loads to do. And to see your manager turn to you in a difficult time and say, I believe you're the answer, to be able to then go and deliver that rather than say, oh my God, what a weight on my shoulders. It's almost like it lifts her and that like the team believes we just need Michelle on the pitch to change things. And that must like, I don't know, that must like really just make you walk on air. yeah i think to be part of the the sort of not the plan b but the 70 80 minute you know game changer plan it's like right special teams get ready get on the pitch we need to get two goals back in five minutes knowing that you're part of the um the plan to get you out the shit to get your team to go on and win it to win the game potentially or certainly claw yourself back into the game yeah that will have given her absolutely loads of confidence and that won't be just something Serena's gone hmm who do I bring on okay right I'm going to give Misha Edgman go and it's come on and it's worked that's like that's weeks and months and talk about Michelle Edgman has come through the the age groups she played in the 23s you know it was chatting to the FA and people like Emma Jenks who's been a part of you know we want to see the Lionesses come through and the finishers programme that they're running at the FA where they're bringing in former international players, likes of Karen Walker and Kerry Davis, to kind of share their experiences of what it takes, that finishing touch, to be able to kind of switch into that mindset where it's cool and calm in that very split second where you need to execute a finish in a big moment.

30:02And it's all part of all these little things feed into having a 19-year-old ready at the European Championships to come on and be that striker that the whole nation is sort of not relying on, but is kind of holding their hopes on and her being able to shoulder that. So it's not just, you know, a chance opportunity. It's been in the making, but she's absolutely thriving on this moment. And I think everybody sort of involved with England with the Lionesses just feels so proud to be part of this Lionesses. You know, I certainly do. You know, I'm 10 years finished now, but I still feel part of the family.

30:40I feel part of what the success is happening right here and right now. And yeah, I'm so proud for Michelle Adjemang and her family that she's really thriving and enjoying the tournament because that's why we all start playing.

30:56Rachel: Honestly, I think first point of business for Arsenal, Monday morning, recalling that loan, getting her back in. I think that's going to take place, obviously. um rake you've obviously had a very impressive record with your predictions for this tournament 20 out of 28 have been correct i think in your bbc sport column it's almost like you're a football expert who knew um including a perfect 2-1 prediction for the england italy semi-final what do you think is going to happen on sunday tell us what you've got a no sitting on the fence I've seen your prediction yeah let's go do it drop it 2-1 England no extra time this time no dicking around no kind of no like elongating the process I love that that means a£30 will be taking its pride of place in my bank account on Monday morning you can buy me one cup of coffee and one in Switzerland a bottle of water in Switzerland that'd be great for the whole tournament obviously I've found it really difficult to see beyond Spain and I think the tournament that they've had and the kind of how it hasn't maybe been as difficult but the more people I talk to and the more kind of analysis I read I think maybe we don't put enough value on the journey that England have gone through and how beneficial that's going to be for them in a final because it's probably galvanised them a huge amount so you know more people are bringing me around to the fact that England could do it I think the I know they can I know they've got the quality too it's just whether they turn up on the day so Rachel thank you so much for joining us we've obviously taken up quite a lot of your time on this very very busy morning um really appreciate you coming on and giving your insights as someone who's been in and around the punditry box obviously part of the lioness is set up and just been an OG with us to be honest it just feels so fitting that we've got you back on at this pivotal moment in England's journey but yeah really appreciate you mate um and yeah best of luck tomorrow come on England I can't believe I can't believe I've still not converted you you You need a pep talk after pep talk.

32:57I do, I don't.

32:57Rachel: I'm a pep talk this tournament. You haven't given me one yet, so I'll wait for the text. I'll wait for the text. Okay, all right. Game on. Thanks, guys, for having me. Thanks, Ray. Cheers.

33:21Rachel: oh Rach I actually don't know whether having second Rachel on was a good thing or a bad thing I don't know whether I'm more nervous or less nervous about this um I kind of feel like she provided a lot of good context. I liked what you said about like not being lucky. Like there's an element of luck and rub of the green in games, but like you're not, you don't accidentally score a goal by sitting back and defending. England are constantly putting themselves in those positions to get goals and to break down teams. And, you know, I was watching back some of the highlights the other day and like, it was just the Italy game in particular was just full of England chances, you know?

33:54Rachel: And I think you have to put yourself in those positions for this so-called luck to happen. You're not going to get that by sitting back and not creating opportunities. So I think she was good on that kind of clarity. And also just the wider context of the decisions that are made and how they're made within a team. And we don't know how that happens. We don't know how players train. We don't know how those relationships are looking on the pitch and who's linking up well, who's not. All of that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I think that was really valuable to hear from her about like those decisions and why things are made.

34:28Rachel: And yes, you know, I'm sure Serena will look at 86 minutes or whatever it was and think maybe that could have happened a bit earlier. But equally, they go away and go, right, what did we do? What decisions did we make? And where actually could we improve? So I thought that was quite interesting. I think I have to disagree on the luck point and the jamminess. Like I kind of stand by that. Like when you look at like how those last two games were won, like the penalty shootout in particular in Sweden, there was at least two or three opportunities there where Sweden had a penalty and missed. like that is luck that's 100 % luck like we shouldn't have been in that position in the first place but we were us getting through by the skin of our teeth was luck like there's there are moments of that in the tournament and that's not to say there's only England that have been through that 100 % but like we haven't played the way that we can do in games were Germany lucky when they got through against France uh well I think that's the thing though every team has had a bit of luck but I'm just saying like we can't ignore the fact that luck has played a part in the journey that's what i'm to a degree absolutely but they wouldn't have gotten to that after being two nil down in a final like taking away the talent that we have on the squad the depth of the the ability of the players and like how they you know prepare mentally for the tournaments i'm not taking away i don't want luck to take away from like the actual talent that we have in the squad the game management like how mentally prepared the team are but like luck has played a factor is i will always stand by that um the nice thing i suppose that race did say was that she also reckons that England have learned more about themselves during this tournament than Spain.

35:57Rachel: I think given the challenges, given the adversity we've faced, given the fact that we've had to problem solve, given some of the injuries as well that we've had. Yeah, I think there's been that kind of, I don't know, maybe we have kind of had that resilience, I suppose, that Spain have had, whereas Spain have had a different tournament in the... I mean, what did you take on that, Rach? Yeah, I think it's super cliche. I had a teacher when I was like 11 and 12. I had him for years in a row and he used to always say that mistakes were the stepping stones to knowledge and actually when you think about it like england have learned england are going to learn an awful lot more about themselves when they've not done things well and i think sometimes when something kind of hits you in the face or maybe gives you a kick up the arse you kind of think jesus okay right we really need to sort this out and that kind of happened after the france game i think it kind of happened after the sweden game because i still believe england played well against isley and had the right game plan, but just were not clinical at the right moments.

36:54Rachel: And I think, yeah, I think to have gotten through the semifinals, they were staring elimination like square in the face. And I think that does things to a player in terms of waking them up to what might need to improve or whatever that might be. So, yeah, I think there'll definitely have been a galvanizing effect. I think a lot of the players have spoken about that and they recognize how close they were to going out. And I do think that will massively help them in the final. Also that there are no changes to England starting 11. I think, Rach, we're kind of on the same page with this, to be fair.

37:25Rachel: I think bar Lauren James still being undecided about whether she's actually going to be able to play. Rach obviously, Rachel Graham Finnis, thinks that probably on balance she will. It would have to take something quite serious for LJ to miss out on playing at least some minutes. Yeah, I think I've got to admit, but I do think Esme Morgan will keep her shirt at the back line. Do you think the same? I'm losing my mind because last time I was like, full on, fuck it, go wild, go three at the back, put two up front, let's go. Shut up, Jan, starting. That's how emotional I was after the bloody Italy game.

37:58Rachel: So I don't see changes, honestly. I do think RBF is right in that respect. And I do think Morgan will probably start for sure. Well, not for sure, but I do think Morgan will start. I think she did well against Italy and provided, I don't think necessarily that there's going to be you know as many crosses and stuff into the box but Spain have been going a little bit more direct and and she offers a bit more coverage there so I wouldn't be surprised if she starts and then yeah the LJ thing difficult one um and if she's not fit then you've got that question of whether you start her whether you finish her and when it's more impactful to have her on the pitch so yeah but equally it could be could be mind games oh mate I just feel like it's like I was just in this pod forever.

38:46Rachel: And it kind of feels like I remember we were, you know, the same thing happening for us just before the 2023 World Cup final. I mean, it just feels like such a big throwback. I mean, two years ago, Ray, so much has changed. You know, I was, I was a young 33 year old at the start of her media career in women's football. Rach, you've obviously been in the business for longer than... I've never been young doing this. Yeah, been in the business for decades and decades now. I mean, obviously, so much has happened, not obviously just with us, but with the England squad as well I mean why do you think or how much do you think England have kind of learned since that World Cup final because that was obviously the last time that these two face each other in a cup final that World Cup was so interesting because there was so much more to England's journey than maybe enough credit was given to in terms of like the players that were missing and the injuries they had to deal with and you know it went from being an England that started the same 11 and had the same subs at the same time to a team that had to partway through the competition make complete changes and do formation changes.

39:46Rachel: And there were an awful lot more challenges thrown. And I think a lot of that is down to the growth of the women's game worldwide. I think that World Cup was a real example of that. And every team was a challenge. So I was surprised that RBF said it's harder to win a Euros than a World Cup because I just think that the quality has increased across the board. That you can never really take for granted any team that you're playing or any result. And I think it wasn't just England who came up against very tough opposition. a lot of teams had surprising results out there so yeah I think that was probably the biggest takeaway was the different type of journey and also like how much having a home tournament drives you so that's something that's a big chunk of a big factor that's not here for England in this tournament is that home nation kind of drive and push and I know they would have been in a bubble then but it would have just been a very different bubble so I think we maybe forget about the transition at times of the team, the players that have come in, the players that have gone out, like the new styles, the fact they've had to play a home nation.

40:47Rachel: They haven't had the opportunity to have, like most teams, many friendlies to really try out players. And just a lot more challenges potentially for teams across the board coming into this tournament. And perhaps that's why no one team has blown everything away. I know Spain have had a good tournament, but no one team has really, for a while now, been unbelievable because you're dealing with loading, You're dealing with a different type of competition you have to face in the nation's league, all that kind of stuff coming in. So I think it's made for a much more interesting Euros this time around.

41:18Rachel: Just to close off this pod, Rach, we asked for some of our listeners' thoughts ahead of Sunday. Kirsty Mack, with two Cs, says, Making Lear Williamson's England are never done, my mantra. And then we've got Jamie the Terrible saying, Jamie, what have you done in your life? Think we'll lose to the superior side, so the only weight is up. that is attitude that is that's just that's just horrible that's just really really horrible no it's terrible jamie terrible yeah jamie go away and reflect on that not a big fan of that thought at all uh kat kenzie says cautiously optimistic i have this feeling which may turn out to be total bollocks but i do just have this feeling um last question score predictions what what are they hate score predictions do it really pointless do it i'm just gonna say i'm gonna say head says spain hearts as england no score predictions though yeah that's what i'm saying no let's get granular score predictions i'm not that's what i'm saying so it's a women's football podcast you're gonna i've given you what my prediction is for the uh for the game score predictions are entirely pointless producer finn step in yeah rachel he's just waiting for you to carry on he's not even bothered he's not even there he's hung up this is just us two in a room right i'm saying 2-1 england for the win but i do think it will be in um extra time i think yeah i'm sorry i'm sorry it's gonna be another late night for you it's gonna be 1-1 at full time and then it's gonna be 2-1 extra time but at least we don't go to penalties okay that's that's what we all want and i can't wait to be jubilant touchwood on monday morning i hope i'm wrong that is when we're obviously back subscribe to make sure you don't miss our reaction to the final of euro 2025 we're also going to be looking back at the whole tournament on tuesday so definitely stay tuned for that follow us on socials at upfront underscore pod i am at morgy underscore 89 and rach is at girls on the ball remember make sure you hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode from us rach all the best out in the tournament i hope you have the most amazing time watching the game in real life in the stadium i feel absolutely gutted i'm not I'm going to be living through your eyes that day.

43:26Rachel: Yeah, I will see you on Monday, mate, for what I hope is one of the best podcasts of our entire life. So do I.

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