Spurs defender Molly Bartrip reflects on battles with her mental health and building a supportive dressing room

0:00Content Warning. This interview features discussions of topics that some listeners may find triggering and distressing.

0:10Welcome to Upfront, I'm Rachel O'Sullivan. Today we're joined by Tottenham defender and vice-captain Molly Bartrip. In 2021, Molly rejoined Spurs, her childhood club. Once upon a time, she had even captained the under-10s team. Later, she went through the youth system at Arsenal, where she represented England at youth level for the very first time. However, the day before her first game for her country, Molly suffered an injury which caused her to become isolated and eventually to develop anorexia nervosa. This was the beginning of her battle with mental illness, a battle she has since written and spoken about frankly and powerfully.

0:44It's a pleasure and an honour to have Molly joining us on this special episode of Upfront, which we're releasing to mark World Mental Health Day this Friday, October 10th. We will be speaking to Molly about her experiences, her journey in football and how we as a community can continue to improve our understanding of these issues inside and outside of the game we all love.

1:07welcome to the pod Molly thank you so much for joining us and first things first how are you doing I was so glad to read that you were back in training following your injury yeah I'm doing well as you said yeah I'm back in training trained fully today which was nice to be backing with the girls and obviously we've had quite a good season so far so I'm just hoping I can help the team and bring a bit more experience to the group as well but yeah it's a really nice group to be around so I'm just happy to be on the pitch because rehab is tough it's really tough and it's been a long time since I've been injured if I'm honest um so it's tested me in many ways and yeah I've really enjoyed watching the girls but now I just want to be involved so yeah I bet you do and I think coming in what third in the table coming back to that's not not too bad is it I bet the vibe in camp is great is it yeah it's good you know we still know that there's a lot more for us to do as a group and you know obviously big game at the weekend that's a big test for us and we want to prove ourselves but it's really important to get the first few results under our belt and yeah we've done that really well.

2:09Now World Mental Health Day is this Friday and we wanted to speak with you Molly because you've been so brave and open about your experiences with mental illness. In 2022 you wrote that remarkable piece for the Players Tribune where you spoke about being diagnosed with anorexia nervosa aged 14 and your subsequent recovery and later experience with depression and anxiety as well and I was just rereading it again yesterday I remember reading it when it first came out and it was yeah incredibly powerful incredibly impactful and so important how did you feel when you kind of made that decision to to speak out and be so open yeah when they got in contact with me I was shocked I was like me really and then I read a few other players and athletes articles just to kind of get an idea of how they wanted it to kind of come across and I thought it was a perfect way for me to really share the depth of what I went through.

3:11They were so amazing and supported me in every way possible because I know as you've read it, there's some dark moments that I talk about, very personal things that not many people knew about at the time and yeah, I wanted to be as open as possible because I think it's so much easier for people to relate in that way. I think all of it was just because I want to help people. And it's definitely not the abnormal or it's getting more common for people to talk about mental health now. And I think back then, what are we now, four years on-ish, like you're seeing more and more people speak openly. And yeah, I just want to be a pioneer of pushing that and making sure that everyone knows it's okay not to be okay, but having the right support and the right people around you is always going to give you the best kind of way to recover.

3:57But obviously what I went through has kind of created me into the human I am today. And I think I'm very much aware of everyone around me and how they work and how I can bring out the best in them. And I guess it's kind of a special quality that I have. Sometimes it's a bit tiring, but it's a quality that I have that I probably wouldn't change about myself. And I'm kind of proud of that side of myself, yeah. I think for me, like reading it again, And it's the kind of rawness of your experiences and how much you're willing to share. And, you know, after going through something like that, I imagine thinking back then, you probably wouldn't think you'd be speaking so openly and honestly about all of your experiences.

4:38Was there a kind of did you have to have a kind of discussion with yourself about how much you were going to share or did you recognize the power of that honesty and how impactful it could be? Yeah, I mean, I spoke to my mum. obviously she was probably the closest person to me when I was anorexic and I was going through my depression um I obviously mentioned my brother a little bit in as well and you know we can obviously joke about it now with what with what I kind of pushed him through at the time he was really young you know and I controlled him like I was like the illness was controlling me um but I spoke to my family mainly about how open I can be um and they were just super supportive and said look you're doing this for a good cause and you know I'm not doing it for attention I'd never do that I'm doing it because I really want to get this story across where people can be impacted from it and it can be powerful and people can understand that you know if Molly can can beat an illness you know I can and I'd sit here today and I still do say I'm not the strongest person in the world I can promise you that but I can set my mind to something and I've always had football as a passion and a very supportive family around me that have you know that have supported me in every way possible and yeah I definitely wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them.

5:47That definitely that support from them really comes across in the piece and and how much it meant to you as well even now still and their support it definitely comes across and I guess for those maybe who haven't read the piece I would urge you to go and read it it is a very very powerful piece but I guess you know the the first kind of significant moment for you that you touch on was the injury you suffered as a teenager in your first England call-up yeah and I guess can you tell our listeners a little bit more maybe about the impact it had and then I'll follow on from that because I know that it can almost be a trigger that that kind of situation that happened and and what came after that for you yeah so you know I was really lucky at 13 years of age to to get selected for my country I mean that's crazy now you think about it I'm like whoa I'm getting old um and you know uh it was an honor to play with some of the players I was playing with back then you know some top players that are playing for the lionesses now and i knew the pressure was not maybe as big as it was when you're a professional but i still put a hell of a lot of pressure on myself growing up and you know i was at arsenal at the time and i wanted to try and be the best i wanted to make these england squads and i got selected for this first away game to holland netherlands um and my whole family came out my nan my granddad my mom my dad my brother my brother I hate football.

7:08So he got dragged along pretty much. And I felt pressure, not from my family, not from even the football side of it, just myself. And I think this is probably my worst thing about myself is the pressure I put on me. And I just remember the day before the game, my hamstring went and I was like, well, this is weird. I've never been injured before. And you're so young. I was 14. I didn't know what an injury was. I thought I'd just jump back up and, you know, continue running and be fine. And it wasn't like that. When I got back to England, I really struggled to adapt to everything. And I felt like I needed to, I don't know, change something about myself, harm myself in some way.

7:47And I chose food. And if I'm honest, like you could have asked my parents, my whole family, everyone that knew me back then, they would have probably said that was the last thing I would have changed. Like genuinely. I loved food. Growing up, I was obsessed with food, like every cuisine you could call. like it was you know I just loved it and that was the one thing I stopped um I didn't think I was good enough um football wise human wise I thought I wasn't fit enough I wasn't strong enough so I don't know I resulted in just taking food away and it went from being maybe um a breakfast where my mum my brother would leave my dad was already at work at like ridiculous o 'clock in the morning but um I'd like maybe not eat that eat a breakfast and then it would be to chuck in my lunch away and then it would be to hiding it in my dressing gown pocket at dinner and throwing it out the window.

8:38The depths of just trying to be so deceitful. But it was very obvious to my family what I was doing. It got to a point where I'd clearly lost so much weight that my mum took me to the doctors and that was when I got diagnosed and I was like, what is anorexia nervosa? I don't know what that is. And the doctor was explaining it to me and I just didn't believe her. I thought she was joking. and it took for me to go to counselling sessions to understand what was going on and that was when I got told by my counsellor at the time it's like someone's on your shoulder talking to you and controlling you you know telling you the calories and everything telling you the fat content telling you you can't do this you can't do that and it controlled my whole life and it didn't just control me it controlled my family and I think that's the crazy part of an illness and a mental illness is so impactful on everyone else around you.

9:29And I did things that I would regret for the rest of my life, like said things that I'm not proud of, treated my brother like, as I said, like he was just a little minion that I was just like, yeah, let me just make him do things and whatever. And, you know, I'm not proud of that, but it was the illness. And, you know, I look back now and my whole family know that. And I think football kind of sent me that direction, you know, with not feeling good enough. And I think I've always had a fear of rejection and I felt rejected from football and I didn't get selected for the next camp. And I think that was when it all really blew up for me.

10:06And I was really like, yeah, that's it, I'm done. You know, I'm not going to eat. I'm going to harm myself in this way. And yeah, I chose food and all of a sudden then I'm being diagnosed and I'm having to go to weekly counselling sessions. I'm taken out of school at lunchtime to be, you know, watched eating. and my grandparents are picking me up and then I'm refusing to go back. And, you know, I was like a shell of what I was as an actual person, you know. And I would say my whole family would say that I'm quite a happy, bubbly person. And I wasn't, I was just not Molly at all. And it took me a long time until I started to like, you know, get out of the habit of allowing the illness to control me.

10:49it took me a long time to then realize that I can beat it and I think that's the thing when you feel so trapped it almost feels impossible to get out of it but you have to be strong and you know football kind of sent me that way but then it was the reason why it got me out of it and it was like I want to be a professional like I do want to make it and you know I'm obviously getting a bit old now and but it was when the women's were starting to get professional contracts and it was like that's my dream like I'm watching Kelly Smith I'm watching Farrell Williams smash it for England And I'm like, I want to be one of them, you know, and, and that was my goal.

11:21And, you know, I'm lucky to be still doing it now. And I feel really fortunate to be in the position I'm in. But it's been a journey. It has been a journey. yeah and I think as well the thing that really hit home was how young you were when you were experiencing this and you know you said you didn't know how to explain your emotions but you were happy and you were not happy and and you know I think yeah I think that was the thing that really made you sit back when you're reading the piece is having to deal with a complex situation like that at such a young age and yeah and yeah I just thought it was so powerful the way you touched on having to write the letter to your illness yeah I still have them that's amazing like because I guess it as a uh a person a young teenager to be able to confront it like that maybe makes it a bit more in front of you do you know what I mean rather than kind of in your head I had to see the illness for that instead of this just thing that naturally controlled me like writing was the only way I could really get everything off my chest I mean now very different you know I've had to deal with mental health for a very long time and you know I use psychologists but back then I think you're young and you don't really understand what's going on and yeah I was super grateful actually for this for the counsellor for initially saying why don't you write to it and I was like okay and that's how I did it and then that's also then how I communicated with my mum with my granddad it's how I did it because otherwise I just locked myself in my room and I didn't want to talk to anyone or be near anyone.

12:52And then I guess, you know, you may have felt you had a more of a handle on that situation as, you know, you were back playing football again, a long journey to get back to actually playing football. And then, you know, you have to deal with that depression. Yeah. And I guess, you know, you touched on the fact that you were still eating, so maybe you were okay, but actually, did you feel that having experienced that at a young age you were aware more that you were struggling again? Yeah, I think, you know, I was at Reading at the time and it's so different when I try and compare both of them. Like depression, I felt so alone and I wasn't, but I felt so alone and I just wanted to disappear and that was the only way I could describe it to people.

13:42I felt like every day was a chore. like having to mentally deal with your brain 24 7 is hard and it's draining and that's how it felt and by the way I am not perfect right now um by all means and I still struggle um but I'm so lucky that I've got an amazing psychologist here at the club and you know all my family and you know the club and staff are aware of you know I might have a panic attack in the middle of a session um I had one in the middle of um a game at the stadium at half time against I want to say it was Manchester United last year I had a panic attack at halftime and I remember Vicky Jepsen at the time saying to me you sure you can go out and I was like I have to okay I have to and she was like like but Molly this this is your health you know and I was like okay I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it I went out and I remember doing my first header and she was like she's fine she's gonna be fine but I still struggle um and I'm really open with that as well and that's why I think you know whenever I get asked to talk about it I want to because honestly I'm not perfect now and yeah like even with the depression it was you know what it makes me emotional because it was hard it was a graft to get back to myself um I had to take a long time away from the sport that I love um which was tough to accept um I wouldn't say I got treated the best by the club at the time either which did hurt but you know I've moved on from that and I have to accept that that's the past now and I'm at Tottenham that support me in every way possible and bring out the best of me and that's then how I can bring out the best of others around me too.

15:24Yeah you wrote that at the time players were brought into a room and told not to contact you that it was something you had to deal with with your family which really shocked me and it's three and a half years on since you wrote that piece yeah do you feel things have changed you touched on and I think this is so true football sport generally being reactive rather than proactive yeah do you feel it's changed since that time at Reading do you feel more is being done for people to understand how to better support their colleagues I think the more voices the better you know I look at Viv Meadama Beth Mead that support Common Goal like me.

16:05Niamh Charles is in it as well. I think the more people talk about it openly, the better, because there's no stereotype then. And, you know, I can, you know, I spoke to some of the new girls even last year and then this year when they find out that I've had a history of mental health and they're like, whoa, I would never know. You put on such a brave face, but that's the scary thing. You know, I could say to you right now, how are you? And you might say, yeah, I'm fine. But deep down you're not. and that's the scary part of mental health is like how do you really know how someone truly is unless you really give them the time and effort to find out you know what's going on in their home life too and I think we can always be better with that you know I even think at the club we can still be better with that and I think then when you start to really understand people as humans you can then get the best athlete too so I do think there still needs to be more you know at Tottenham I can talk on their behalf that the club are really supportive and our psych is amazing she's probably my favourite staff don't tell them that I love her to bits actually some of them will probably listen to this so that'll be funny but she is and I get on with her really well and she brings out and shows me pictures of things that maybe I can't see because I can be very overwhelmed so I do believe that every WSL every men's team club has to have a psych it shouldn't even be a question if you're physically injured you see a physio if you're mentally injured you need to see a psychologist and realistically i do believe that the mental side of the game gives you an edge you know you can be physically strong physically fast physically fit but actually if you've got the mental side i think it gives you an extra edge on the pitch um and i think that's where we can keep talking about it more but actually it's an asset it's it's something that's so powerful that it can make you a better player so if we can get as many people talking about as possible, I do believe the game's going to be in a better place.

18:01And another thing on that is we're hitting the women's game now where you're seeing thousands of fans turn up. You're seeing abuse on social media. It's a different game to when I was, what, 10 years ago when I was in this league at the beginning, 18 or whatever I was. Like, it's a completely different game. And I think, are we ready for that side of it? I don't know. I think we still maybe need to do a bit more work on that because we're still seeing it happen. and that's when ultimately you need the support around you because fans are going to have their say. They have everything right. We've all been a football fan once, right?

18:37But we're human beings too and we have a home life that we go back to and I think it's important to balance that up too. A hundred percent. Well said. I think as well, I mean, I know we're doing this for World Mental Health Day, but we need to be having these conversations all the time, not just when it's a month or a day or when it crops up and you know I spoke to Rhianne Skinner about um about this recently and and she touched on it we need to be more proactive rather than reactive we've seen in the last couple of weeks what these difficulties mental health issues can have and you know rather than us reacting to things it's I guess being proactive what what do wish people knew more about about these situations because you know that the the way reading went about it for example yeah really stands out to me reading that article when actually you know it might sound cliche but having people talking to people is such a an outreach just a way of providing that support yeah I think it's a basic of life isn't it just asking how someone is um and I think sometimes people can be a bit like oh you're just gonna say yeah I'm fine but I do think if you can have really deep conversations with people you get to see people so differently I can give you an example I went out with two of the girls that I don't normally even necessarily hanging around with um and we just went for brunch and I got such more of an insight of both of them as humans than I ever have in this building and that's crazy because now I understand them more so I now know how to kind of be around them as a teammate as well and I think that's the thing it's like the little it's like the don't know the little extra bits you can do to be a good human but also just be a supportive one and I think you know um I can also talk about Rianne you know I worked with Rianne here um and she was really supportive of me and understood everything that I was going through and I also think it's important that managers do the same It's not about just us as players.

20:43It's also about staff and how that feeds through. I think that's why I remember when our psych first came to the club, it was important that the staff also had access to her because they also have to deal with the pressure that we do. You know, they also want to win at the weekends. They also need to plan sessions and go through other things. And I think actually if you can collectively have that positive environment where you can speak openly about how you actually are, I think it betters everything and and then you get more success as a group I do think we're so good at that at Tottenham and we're so much better at that and honestly you could walk in the changing room and one person can be having a bad day but it's so important that everyone else is trying to bring that person up um and I think that's like a I don't know a special part of the game isn't it and special part of being a team sport anyway

21:44we're still seeing moments in the game you touched on Vivian Miedema there I remember when she came back from the Euros in 2022 she requested time off yeah because she was struggling and you know you don't see that very often but I guess no you need a club to be able to foster an environment where a player feels comfortable in the same way you touched on it there looking after your physical health yeah that should be encouraged in the same way right to be looking after your mental health oh 100 and that's what I mean by the likes of of Viv talking so openly and I've spoke to Viv about it she's an amazing person not just an amazing footballer trust me an even more amazing person so you know in that way like it's huge because even I've you know I've I've looked up to Viv as a footballer um but now I admire even more for what her being a more open you know and that sounds crazy because you know that's just behind the scenes stuff you know of what she goes through and I think we've all probably had times as an athlete where we've always questioned can I keep doing this you know it's really hard mentally and it's a juggling act sometimes of the highs of the highs and the lows of the lows and it's not getting too caught up with them and then it you know it's really hard to balance it and not everyone has that skill of affecting that um and as i said i think that's why it's important to have the support around you can we get more knowledge there should be always classroom sessions on on on mental health and psychology i think that's an easy thing to start doing from youth level as well and bringing that through the pathway is can we start talking about it more openly i work with bloomsbury now and i went and did a session with them and there was um 16 year olds so what are they in year 10 11 if i'm back at school a long time ago um and I did I spoke openly about what I'd been through and half of them were like whoa like we've never heard someone speak openly about that you just hear about that on the news or you don't see that firsthand and I'm like well now you know because if your friend's struggling you know someone that's been through it and that's also I think massively impactful is that if you have a little bit more knowledge someone that means around you you can understand it more and then you can support them in a better way but if no one has a clue what's going on it's so hard to know what to do and you don't want to say the wrong thing I understand it I've been there like you don't want to say the wrong thing to someone that's struggling but you can definitely show them care like and that's a simple thing yeah and I think in the same way that you know players need to essentially be are treated differently they take information in differently you need to train differently whatever that might be the same way individually people's mental health is is different and individual and different mechanisms I guess are needed to support that and have you found that now at Tottenham that you've worked out kind of mechanisms that help you yeah for sure and um you know I've obviously admitted that I have panic attacks sometimes and I'll give you a bit of insight because I had a panic attack in a session um beginning of pre-season this year and one of the girls was like are you okay like you need to stop and I was like I've I've had the I've had so many now I know what to do and the staff know what to do the physios know what to do um and one of the girls was like oh like are you okay like do you need to go out the session I'm like just give me a minute and then the session stopped and you know I had my panic attack and I'm going on and then I continued training and then I was in the physio room with her and she said like can you explain to me what it feels like when you have panic attack and I was like oh my god no one's ever asked me this question before like wow and And I said, I explained, like, I feel like someone is punching my chest and I can't breathe.

25:26And I just, I can't focus mentally. I can't control my legs. I can't do anything that I normally do. And she was like, well, what can I do to help you if it happens? And I just thought, whoa, like, that is what we need. Like, that is exactly what we need. And I said, personally, and this is no way for everyone. I said I actually need you to make me laugh because it will snap me out of it so she was she said oh you know what I'm gonna say like she was just come back from injury and she was like I'm gonna be like oh you're blind more than me and I've just come back from injury and I was like that would have been perfect in the moment that would have been because it would have made me go like that and just crack up and those that know me in the team my closest people know that I just need to be kind of like took my mind just needs to be taken somewhere else and I think that's what I mean by having conversations now she knows how to deal with if I was to have one in a session and it's not then like oh I'm just going to stay away from Wally because she's having one you know Beth's another example of when I've had one she's like put her arms around me and she's lifted me up from behind kind of thing to make me breathe properly you know I've never actually told Beth that but she's always done it and it's always helped me and obviously I'm close with Beth and known her a very very long time and she's seen me do that you know I had panic attacks a few times and like just sometimes it comes from experience and seeing someone have something or explain that this happens to them for people to go, okay, I'm now going to know.

26:51And now if that person sees it happen to someone else, they could probably know how to deal with it. So it really is just being open and talking about it that helps the most. Yeah, and have you found that being in an environment where people know what's happening, know how to help you? Because I imagine in a situation like that, it is very stressful. to know that you're not in an environment that suddenly is wondering what's going on. You're in an environment where they understand what's happening. Does that, I guess, allow you to deal with it better? Does it take away some of the stress of the situation happening?

27:26I mean, I do get really embarrassed when I have them. And I think that's never going to go away. I do get a little bit like, yeah, maybe even more anxious that I'm having it because I'm like, I don't want to have this inner window of session. I don't choose when to have one. but I do think yeah Tottenham have been really helpful in and how I deal with them and you know no one's made it like a big thing that you know okay she now can't train for the rest of the session because I've over the years managed to control it so well that I can go back out and train and I might just need a one minute of getting my breathing back into a normal rhythm and then I can go and train or for example in one game and then I can go out and play a second half um but that's come from you know me talking to the staff the physios the docs about how they can help me to then get back around and I'm not saying it's this it's the same for everyone else because some people it panic attacks really drain you physically um and they're quite scary in that way so it's quite hard to pluck up the courage to go I'm gonna try again when actually you know you've not really even got the energy to do it but as I said through you know the amount of I've had of them I've I've just had to deal with it and be like okay like this isn't going to stop me from training and I want to go out there and ultimately try and put a smile back on my face again you know and and take back that control I suppose yeah exactly exactly and as well as being an on the pitch leader at Spurs um having been named vice captain in 2023 you've also played a part in in player well-being at the club what does that look like on a day-to-day basis yeah I think that was initially put in when Brianne was here um so a long time ago um but I think I've actually just kind of kept that um I wouldn't necessarily say there's that role right now at the club but I think with everything that I've been through I'm always someone that's going to look out for everyone and you know I can say see if someone's upset then I'm always going to make sure that I ask how they are and you know I've been in situations where I've maybe been struggling and they've reached out for me and um you know even for for someone that's going for an injury like I have someone coming in and saying how rehab is going is so nice for me to talk about like it was so helpful for me to just talk about it instead of being feeling like feeling trapped because as a rehabber like I've learned a lot because it has really been a long time since I've been injured and you feel very disjointed from the team a little bit and you want to try kind of close that gap of feeling still part of it and I think what I've managed to do is is just to go and ask people how they are even though I'm the one that's in rehab it's just to be like how are you feeling like how did you feel in the game on Sunday like you know the little conversations like that and I've done my absolute best to try and be at every game possible by not taking away my rehab um and being there for the team and if that's a half time giving advice um that that's that and yeah ultimately I've tried to be the best version of myself um even during rehab so then I can hopefully bring um something to the team now I'm back um but yeah it's it's it's been it's been hard and a bit of um definitely like a shift in my mindset and how to deal with it but I'd like to think it's gonna have a positive outcome yeah I was gonna ask you on that because you know it isn't something that goes away completely I imagine it's always kind of in the back of your head and you touch on that injury right at the beginning um with the england camp when you were just a teenager does that kind of when you pick up an injury and i'm glad you haven't been injured regularly over your career um but i guess that's something you have to deal with yourself right it must be quite triggering if you do get an injury and that's why i'm that's why for me it's like you know the law like i yeah okay i think i had one injury at redden um but before that honestly touch wood by the way um like I really haven't been that injury prone and I had that young one when I was young but I England and I had a massive fear of rejection so as soon as I got this injury and I got the news it it didn't help me I was like oh my gosh what do I do I need to talk to a psychologist right now like it was new for me it was a feeling that I haven't had in a long time and I think naturally it's what almost like 12 years on or something crazy like that but I'm still like whoa I need to get my head around it you know I need to understand what I'm about to do and um Ella obviously did her ACL um and when I first got injured I said like I feel really bad talking to you about it because you're going through a longer injury than me and um she said no like she said something that's going to stick with me forever I think and she said no because you know what I might be drowning in five meters of water and you might be drowning in two meters of water but what are we both doing and I was like we're both drowning and she went yeah we're both drowning and I was like whoa like that just opened my mind so much and I was like oh wow and now I am gonna be her biggest supporter when she gets back on that bitch you know because you go through things in rehab where you don't really kind of like understand like but you have each other's back and Luana's obviously been in there and we've had a bit of few in and outs but you know something like that that when ella said that to me i was like wow like i'm gonna actually take that with me like that's such a smart way of looking at it because it did bring back bad memories for me it really did um but i'm just grateful like i'm at the end of it now and hopefully i get back on the pitch soon and playing with the group and yeah we'll see um all i can do is try my best and yeah hopefully

33:16I just wonder, like having those conversations, do you almost feel like an element of responsibility to kind of, I mean, you've touched on how, you know, speaking out about it, but even things like you wouldn't say that what your lowest weight, for example, you recognize the importance of the language you use, the information you share. yeah for sure and I think that's something that comes with a bit of education um especially if we talk about for staff as well like how can we make things sound not you know we're women and we take things literally sometimes um and like how can we you know talk better in that way and is it that we're asking questions that are kind of twisted in a way that are smarter um and I think yeah I think I think you're right in that I think sometimes we we do speak the wrong language and I know I experienced that obviously at my old club um where maybe things got said wrong and they didn't mean that but it was wrong for me and it hurt me um and I think we can all be better at that right you know sometimes I go home and I'm like damn I shouldn't have said it like that that's not what I meant you know we can always kind of think before we say things but I think especially when it comes to mental health you can always be a bit more assertive in how you say it and I think you can you can always do research as well in in how people would want to be spoken to as well because I think obviously not everyone's the same but I don't think it's hard to go on google and write in anorexia nervosa and do a bit of research you know it's it's not hard I mean that's what my mum did and that's where she got loads of the ideas of how to you know how to deal with me that's exactly what she did for hours to the point where she lost sleep you know um but that's sometimes what you've got to do to to understand things more and i do think after football you know i've i've got a lot to give um in that way and i do want to do some maybe start my own foundation and and really push mental health um after football because yeah as i said the game's getting bigger and bigger every single year uh the sponsorships are getting bigger the money coming in the everything it's gone crazy and you know it should be it's where we want it to be but with that comes the mental side of the game and yeah I definitely want to do a bit more research in that too and you know I've obviously had my own experience but I want to bring that to the table and hopefully help the future of the game also yeah that's that's such a good idea because you know even if a parent came across your article that you wrote for the Players Tribune would be invaluable I think for them dealing with that and you mentioned as well earlier about the you know the growth of the women's game in terms of social media that kind of thing how have you experienced that and how do you think clubs are managing that or what more do you think they could be doing because that's another level of pressure to deal with yeah honestly social media can be the best thing in the world but it could also be the worst you know it it has a bit of a both um and I think you have to be quite smart in how you do it and there's been times where I'm like you know what I don't think I need to be on social media there's been times in my career in the last three years that I've kind of looked for the negativity of myself honestly I have we've lost I'm probably searching for it in a way um I don't know why I did that but I think you you regret it as soon as you see it that's for sure um and I think it's just about us all understanding that people are going to have opinions and you know we we do too um at the end of the day but ultimately what matters is what what the manager thinks and the people around you in the building think and and we have to just focus on that as as athletes and professionals um but it's tough it's tough to see of course it is but you know the men have had it for for a long long long time also um and we're now coming into it when the pressure and everything else gets bigger that's going to be part of it you know the expectations are so much higher um but I do think you know we can always do things to help each other with that and look out for each other and yeah you know we don't want to see any negativity online of course you don't but it is it is opinions and fans are going to have their say we saw that with Jess Naz and the the racist abuse she received and I know Martin Ho spoke in a pre-match press conference about how you were going to recognize that how you're going to recognize Black History Month and he said he wanted you know it was very much the players choice of how they wanted to come together to do that so do you feel like you have those opportunities to have those important conversations and talk about how you're going to support each other we're a really open group in that way and as soon as we see what happened to jess just made me angry to be honest like i just don't understand it it hurts really it hurts um i just yeah honestly it makes you just want to i don't know be angry because i don't get it it's it's not necessary it doesn't help anybody i don't think we even should be talking about it it's not something that should even be coming out of people's mouths it really shouldn't be especially typing it.

38:15You know, it's just keyboard warriors doing their thing and I don't think there's any need for it. I think ultimately the girl has a life and she's a human being and I think you should be respecting that. It doesn't matter what colour her skin is. It doesn't matter anything, religion. It just does not matter. And ultimately she is human, like we all are. And I think that's exactly how everybody should be treated. But we're fully supportive of Jess and, you know, we're all... I'm sure her phone was overloaded as it was, but we were all texting and making sure she was okay and we've got her back, of course we do.

38:49She's Jess Naz. Can I ask what advice you would give to a young person maybe struggling, maybe getting into football? As a teenager, there's a lot of things you're trying to deal with in your life. Would you have any advice for young people getting into that and struggling a little bit? Yeah, I think to try and talk to the people around you as much as possible. I think it's very easy to close off everyone and feel like maybe you're a burden by talking openly. But I think my biggest thing is just being open, talking as much as you can. And sometimes a safe space might be your mum, your dad. It might be a friend.

39:25It might be a colleague. But as long as you are open, I think the worst thing is to bottle it up and then it gets to a point where you can't do it. I think always, yeah, my biggest advice is just to speak out. I think that's, it's tough to do initially. and I think actually it's probably the biggest step to take when you're struggling or going through things but I promise you it will benefit you in the long run because you'll have people that understand you more. And finally, we often talk to players, you know, maybe when they win something or win a big match or win an award and you think, you know, can you believe it?

40:02What an amazing moment in your career. And they always say, you know, you don't look back on this stuff until maybe you hang up the boots. for you can you look back at your journey with with pride are you proud of how far you've come and what you're doing with the journey you've been on mental health wise yeah I'm super proud of you know managing to to beat two illnesses what in the space of 10 years um I've probably experienced what some people experience in a lifetime I've been told that many times um mentally it's been tough um but I'm super proud of that I think football I've still got more to achieve um I think I'm always hungry for more success and you know I haven't won many things in my career um and I'm not really in like I don't want the individual accolades I I want team team goals and I would love Tottenham to win something um that was my dream um so yeah I it doesn't stop here for me um you know I'm 29 now and I still gotta keep going um I really think that Tottenham have got success in the future and I want to be a part of it so yeah it doesn't stop here well I think you can be proud of your career at Tottenham thus far you're an absolute stalwart in that team but I absolutely think you should be proud of everything you've done as well around mental health a true advocate for the game and I think the power of sharing your story you probably don't realize yet the impact that it has but it is hugely impactful and it's a very brave thing to do and especially coming to chat to us on the podcast as well hugely appreciative and very very important so thank you so much for joining us thank you for making me feel comfortable thank you Thank you so much for listening.

41:36If you've been affected by anything you've heard on today's episode or would like some advice, please go to mind.org.uk. Molly has kindly sent us links to some resources, which are included in the show notes below. Chloe and I will be back on Tuesday. In the meantime, you can find us on Instagram and X. I'm at girls on the ball. Chloe is at morgy underscore 89. And we are at upfront underscore pod. You can also find us on YouTube at upfront pod. See you next week.

42:19Upfront is a Stack production and part of the Acast Creator Network.