Andy Nyman: How to Become a Successful Actor

0:00I'll have made my living as an actor for 40 years. So I looked into what is happening neurologically when you are nervous.

0:11Ben Hanlin: This week's guest is the brilliant Andy Nyman. He's an actor, a writer, a director and a magician. Hello, welcome back to What's The Trick? I'm your host, Ben Hanlin. If you don't know, this podcast is the podcast where I interviewed the world's most creative people and try and understand their creative process. how do they do what they do and this one does not disappoint Andy is a creative genius right let me explain if you don't know some of his work as an actor in so many things including Peaky Blinders he most recently was in the film Wicked as one of the main parts in the West End he's been on Fiddler on the Roof and as a writer and director back in 2010 he co-wrote with Jeremy Dyson he He co-wrote Ghost Stories, which was a massive smash as a play.

0:58Ben Hanlin: And then that play got turned into a film in 2017. And also on the side of that, his side hustle, his thing he's into is magic. And as a magician, he's brilliant to the point where he co-writes a lot of Darren's work. So over the last 20 years, him and Darren and some of the other team have worked on the live TV specials or the TV shows. and he also has co-written a lot of Derren's live theatre shows. And if you've ever seen a Derren Brown live show, they are incredible. So this episode, full, full of gold. I thought we would, this is what I thought, I thought we would just talk about the craft of these things, how you write, how you come up with these things and his process.

1:40Ben Hanlin: But actually, quite quickly, he was quite honest and authentic and we dove into his mindset because actually being an actor for 30 years is so difficult. You need so much resilience and a certain, for him, you can tell it's the way he thinks about life that keeps him going. So we dive into that as well. So I think it doesn't matter what you're doing, there will be something in what he says that will resonate with you, I think. And I think there's gonna be takeaways for everyone. I've definitely gone away thinking about some of the things he said um and a bit of context we recorded this one at 10 45 at night in the garrick theater in london because andy is currently starring as max ballistock in the producers and we went i went to watch the show and at the end of the show we went backstage to his dressing room literally 10 minutes before there'd been standing ovations from the audience the whole theater is now just cleared out it's empty and silent and with pretty much the only two in the building and we haven't got long so I get straight into it and we cover so much stuff.

2:43Ben Hanlin: I should also point out if you've got any little ones and this is on speak or anything like that, there's quite a bit of swearing in this one so just be mindful of the language there. But anyway, without further ado, this is What's the Trick with Andy Nyman.

3:01Ben Hanlin: So when you normally come off now, obviously you've stayed around, by the way the whole theatre's just evacuated, just silent. We're the only ones left in the whole theatre which is actually quite special. but what are you like off stage normally are you buzzing can you or can you just switch it off and go to sleep no i probably don't get to sleep till about half one really yeah norm is different on different shows when i was doing hello dolly that was emotionally draining as a show because whilst it's a fun show it's about a week ultimately you know when you take the songs away and just do with the play it's about a widow and a widower who are deciding how do we get back into life and so you know you're if you're doing it properly you're dealing with the emotion of that and that's tiring fiddler on the roof absolutely knackering because you're going through the 80s of emotions so by the time you get home you're fucked and you just want to you just sleep this you know this is uh this is a workout physically it is a workout so you're buzzing from that you're buzzing from the the audience response yeah i mean by the time you get to the eighth show on a saturday night you definitely earned you know yeah a bit knackered but no i generally get at home and i'll potter and i'll do stuff or i'll watch something and then about i sort of think it's half one now should i only go to sleep yeah put the phone away else yeah yeah yeah right so that's the producers i we haven't got i've written sections of go for just jump in let's jump in i want to talk about i'm not actually sat down with an actor and we've known each other on and off for years yeah i've never really talked about the craft of acting so i want to dive into that because as people that aren't actors there's so many i think really interesting parts to your world that i couldn't fathom doing and i want to start from the beginning with the audition process the idea that somebody goes right you've got an audition you'll impress these people and i've heard different actors talk about this do you have a set process now thinking about how you go into an audition and how you kind of keep that confidence and it changes as you change and as you get older So next year I'll have made my living as an actor for 40 years.

5:26And it just changes so much. So for theatre, I don't really audition anymore. I don't mean that in a grand way. I don't sort of say I won't audition. It just tends to be that I just get asked to do things. For film and TV, I do get offered stuff. But a lot of the time now, a lot of the audition process is self-tape. right so i've got two books on acting that i wrote golden rules of acting and more golden rules and in the second book seven years between them between those two books first book self-taping was nothing didn't really exist second book covid had happened self-taping became a thing and then it just has remained a thing now so the first round of auditions will very often be self-tape which means you know five o 'clock at night you can get an email from your agent saying here are seven uh seven pages of dialogue here's the description they'd love it by tomorrow evening please right and it's nuts because you've got to do it at home with a mic and or just your phone and video it and send it off to your agent who sends it in you're not getting direction yeah now i've also because i work as a director i've also been on the other side of that when you are looking at self-tapes and you know in 10 seconds whether the person's right or not so you're aware of that as an actor as well that it's just sort of instant do you know that when they walk into the room if it was in person so it's a different thing and i really miss the walking into the room it does happen so i'm in the movie of wicked in the first film yeah and and that was an in the room meeting with John Chu um and that's a different thing you know I love the in the room stuff because

7:17Ben Hanlin: so can we dive into that so you got Disney Disney wicked huge production yeah you've got the audition you're in the room how did you feel going into that one do you remember I'll be really really honest with you Ben I've been doing it a long time as you know I do 50 different things to make a living and like everybody in their life you have hardships and you have challenges and you have things now my wife who sadly died in June had been had had cancer for 15 years on and off well that gives you perspective on everything and you sort of think it's a fucking audition i'll get it or i won't get it it's fine yeah you know and the minute you have kids you know you get a perspective on life and that's very helpful actually not your wife having cancer that's not helpful but the perspective on life trying to force that perspective yeah is very very helpful because nerves are the killer of creativity they absolutely suffocate you when you're in the room and you think i really want this job now equally because i do magic and i make money from that and i'll make money from voiceovers or directing or whatever um I'm not rich, but I had, you know, I'd rather go and do, as it was when I was starting out, I'd rather go do a couple of kids parties than do an acting job I didn't want to do.

9:01And that gives you creative freedom. So I would go into those meetings, never cocky because I care so much about it, but I've always had a sense of worth and always had a sense of I've worked hard on these sides I've thought a lot about it and with John on Wicked who was wonderful I was a little bit nervous because I had to sing in the room and I feel I mean I know it's strange because you just seem to do the show but that doesn't sit comfortably with me I don't feel like I'm part of the musicals world I feel like an imposter but I sang the bits that I sing in the movie and then John asked me about family he's like have you got kids are you married we had a really nice chat about that and what we thought about families and and then we did a couple of the scenes and it was lovely and you go away and you do your very best not to spend the next three weeks going have we heard have you heard anything from them what did they say did he love me did he like me you know but inevitably you do do we get any feedback so you weren't driving in because that

10:14Ben Hanlin: would be the thing you think okay driving towards this audition or however you got there thinking this is the big one this is going to be the biggest one i've done if it comes off does that play in at all or when it never you just kind of go because i mean again one of the things i put in my book is you know a swallow doesn't make a summer and you know i've heard so many times oh this is it you can't believe how many awards i have oh you'll win for this oh this will change your life oh this will be and the truth of it is it's just your body of work of course there's going to be jobs that for some people are life changers of course you know but for most actors that's not the case for most actors you just keep doing it you try and do good work you try and be respectful you try and do stuff that makes you happy and and you just want to keep working so So now having said that, I also acknowledge I'm playing Max Bialystok in The Producers, the first production for 20 years, the first new production for 25 years, you know, and I was just asked to do that.

11:35So I also have to take stock and go, well, equally, that's incredible. I mean, credibly, you know, my 40 years of work has paid off in some respects.

11:48Ben Hanlin: But that perspective you can apply at any age, right? Because you're 100%. There's always, it's funny, people ask me as a performer, do you ever get nervous on stage? And I always roughly come back to kind of the answer, that if you can have the worst show in the world or the worst night in a room full of people, think you're rubbish, but it's okay. Like my wife and kids, do you know what I mean? Exactly. And that's part of the journey. When we first met, I remember so clearly being blown away by the YouTube stuff you were doing. And you were like, I'm in Brom and I'm going to try and meet, I'm making stuff.

12:20Jason Donovan by two or a half hours. Or whatever it was. I just thought, God, he's brilliant. Just the chutzpah of it and the energy of it. And then you get older and you get married and you have kids. And all the stuff at that point when you're starting out that feels essential to you. If I did this and if I can do that and if I can get seen and noticed, maybe I'll get on telly. And if I get telly, maybe I'll get famous and I'll earn loads of money and then I can have a big house. And you just realise as you get older, It's bollocks. It doesn't mean anything.

12:49Ben Hanlin: Yeah. And also I got trapped in this thing of I could never enjoy the thing I was in. No, because that had to, you know, we first worked together on a Discovery Channel show. And the whole time you're making that, you're going, is it going to get a second series? Is this going to happen? And I'm always trying to think, well, this has to lead to something else. And that stops me enjoying that thing. So if you want to go, if you want to dig deep into it, you know, one of the things that we have thrown away is religion. and certainly with my religion jewish religion and with many other religions part and parcel of that religion is saying blessings saying bruchers for the first thing you do when you open your eyes is you say a blessing for of gratitude that your soul has been returned to you whether you believe in god or not is basically a prayer that says oh god i'm alive for another day that's great it's not a bad way to start but you then there are blessings for everything for the glass of water that you drink for being able to go to the loo for being able to walk for being able to have a meal for being able to and all of that stuff is i believe just about keeping you in the moment and not thinking well what's going to happen you know i wonder if i'll get that next job or this next job you just got to be in it yeah and grateful for because otherwise you're just constantly chasing the dragon of what's going to be next what's going to be next and you miss the joy yeah of where i am what would you say if you were speaking to young actors do you have two or three tips when it comes to acting of you know this is what you'd like to see young people doing or avoided doing when in rehearsals or on screen or honest to god i'm not saying this because i make nothing out of those books but i've got two books golden rules of acting more golden rules of acting they are like 15 minute pocketbook reads yeah i've read them um that is everything i think about being a professional actor not only that actually it works if you're a magician a singer it basically if you're self-employed how do you survive as you're self-employed and you just change the word acting to do you know i was gonna say that it's not for it's not for actors i've read it do you know what i've read i must have read the first one probably was it 10 years yeah yeah 10 years ago when it came out and there's a thing now if you were to ask me gun to head tell me one thing from that book it was i don't know why this sticks with me but it sticks with me and it's hang your clothes up yeah and do you want to explain the point so let me tell you what that is so because actually that that one thing is massive yeah because it's at the end of when you're filming or when you're doing a play at the end of the show when you take your clothes off hang them up because there are costume people who will come around and do that anyway especially on filming those people have got will be there hours after you doing all this shitty work hanging your clothes up that you've taken off and thrown on your sofa because you're knackered at the end of the shoot day got to wash the clothes got to do this got to do that the 40 seconds it will take you to do that it acknowledges i am part of a team i respect other people for the work that they do i am not taking them for granted it seems like such a tiny thing but it's huge and i'll be on over the years little things happen like i might be in a cafe or a restaurant or somewhere and it's like oh you you can leave your plate there or you can take it over and i get that little genuinely the little phrase hang your clothes up because it applies to anything like just keep the the workspace or the thing that you're in tidy do just do that 30 seconds to help that that yeah that's one i love that well i mean within at the kernel of that is and i think i put it in the first book don't be a dick yeah it's as simple as that yeah everybody is grafting and everybody's no one's getting paid the amount they should do apart from the 0.01 % of stars everyone's working longer hours than they should do everyone's being feels they're slightly taken advantage of be nice it's as simple as that be nice and be grateful doesn't mean kiss ass and you know take shit out of all I'm happy to work it doesn't mean that but it means just be grateful and decent to work with because you are also it's not only the nice human thing to do it's the better business thing to do because your reputation is everything it's everything because the first thing that will happen as an actor or a director is when you're meeting people and you go he was really good in the audition um look at his cv let's do due due diligence and see what they're like oh he worked with so-and-so give them a ring find out what they're like i'll tell you now i've just worked with two actors not on this show or something else that were a nightmare they were a nightmare and i feel it is my duty to share that information with other creatives if they say what's he like do not work with them yeah don't go near them because they will kill the company they will kill hours of work they will make it miserable for everybody equally people are oh he's loved you know what it's a tiny thing he used to hang his clothes up every night he's brilliant honestly he's lovely yeah and that uh that i think that work again it's not this isn't just about acting that works in life doesn't it 100 it's just people have got to go to work they've got to spend more time with these people than their own family yeah i don't want to spend a year of my life with someone that annoys me or he's just not a nice put it's quite basic stuff isn't it i never teach you that in school but it's like that thing that that's going to get you further in life than you think yeah it really is um let's move on uh okay go on the last thing about acting i want to be all but this i think this is really interesting as well i was thinking about again actors nerves right so how do we do nerve but there was one thing i thought in particular with acting that is probably unlike any other type of performing you're on set you're on a film let's say wicked yeah massive budget i'd imagine hundreds of people yeah and it's your scene yeah and you've got the big director you've got the big wigs from disney and the camera is pointed at you and they go action does any point of view that point you've done the work you've done the prep but there's a bit of nerves go oh god this is my moment all eyes are on me not anymore and i've worked very very hard at that so uh 18 years ago i was doing a play it was the first play i'd done for 10 years i took myself out of plays and i was just i just focused on tv and film i went back and i did a play and at that point it was the biggest part i'd ever played i did it i was 40 and i did it because my dad had got alzheimer's and i thought fuck i need to work my muscle i need to work my brain and this is a great part and it's massive i'm gonna do it so i did it and i got to the dress rehearsal and i shit myself i I was literally in the wings shaking.

20:48I was in a terrible state pen. And at the time, I was also writing the Derren stuff.

20:53Ben Hanlin: Yeah. And so I looked into what is happening neurologically when you are nervous. And then I looked into, well, what's the difference between that and when you're excited? And the truth is, there is almost no difference apart from the label you put on it. sweaty palms nervous tummy um increased heart rate it's the same thing in both of them except you go in one of them when it's a negative you're like i'm so nervous jesus christ the other one is oh my god i'm so excited it's gonna be so i stopped saying i was nervous and i started saying i'm excited i put this in the first book yes i remember you and it sounds so bogus at first and it feels bogus when you do it at first how are you feeling for the first preview I'm really nervous.

21:43How are you feeling? Sorry, I'm really excited. How are you feeling for that audition you're meeting for Wicked, aren't you? What does that feel like? Oh, I'm really excited for it. It's staggering how quickly that had an impact on me. It honestly has changed my life. So when I was doing Hello Dolly and the top of Act Two, when you're coming out to do a solo number at the Palladium. Yeah. And you're walking out from the orchestra pit and you're looking at three and a half thousand people. I was just excited.

22:17Ben Hanlin: Yeah. And it frees you. It absolutely frees you. And after a few months of doing it, it stops feeling fake and it genuinely becomes what you feel like. And, you know, and then on top of it, when you've done the job for a long time, I know if I do that, I'm doing that scene with Cynthia or Evo. on Wicked or one of the scenes and I can't remember my lines. I just say, hang on, sorry, sorry. Can I just have a look at the script? You know, let me just have a quick look. What is that? Yes, of course. All right, great. Can we go again? You just own it for a minute. And the director is wonderful. John Chu's wonderful.

22:56And as long, you know, directors, a director who goes, you know, they're a dick. But most directors are just like, oh, cool, cool, cool. That's fine. Yeah. Have a look. What do you need?

23:06Ben Hanlin: Great. Okay. So that one tip, I have heard you say that before and you still use that. It's massive. It changed my life. Right. Let's move on to writing. Yeah. I don't know how, I was thinking about asking you this question. Why do you write? Oh my God. Because you're an actor. You've got jobs. You've got work. But you choose to pick up a pen. And what's driving that? What's behind that? Well, the writing is I would never have written without creating magic. I would never have had the confidence to write ghost stories with Jeremy Dyson, who was my oldest friend, my best friend, without having invented magic tricks.

23:48And then from that, created all the Derren Brown magic with Derren for 15 years and realized, oh, actually, a deadline's quite a good friend as opposed to this terrifying thing you have to deal with. It forces you to actually create.

24:08so I had an idea for a play and I went to Jeremy and we'd been talking since, you know, we've been best friends since we were 15. I spoke to him. I was like, I've got this idea. Do you remember? Let's pick on that idea.

24:19Ben Hanlin: So this is obviously going to be ghost stories. Yeah. But where, do you remember how the idea came? 100%. Go on. I went to see Vagina Monologues. Yeah. I didn't really enjoy it. And I sat there watching this show and thinking, this is on all over the world. There are three women sitting on three stools reading from folders. The business model of this is incredible because this thing is making a lot of money and the outlay of it is not big. At about the same time, I'm obsessed with horror and have been forever. About the same time, I was walking past The Woman in Black, which is an absolutely brilliant play.

25:03Ben Hanlin: um i'd been in the tv film of it in 1989 it was the first telly i ever did um i'd seen the play which was incredible i'd seen it a few times and it was at that point it had been on in the west end for 20 years and i walked past that play and i thought this is insane there isn't another horror play and hasn't been for 20 years that's a bit like saying oh we can't have another musical because there's phantom of the opera and i phoned jeremy i just had this lightning bolt moment and i phoned jeremy and i said you know we've been talking for years about we should write something together i've had an idea and it's the vagina monologues with ghost stories three men sitting on three stools telling ghost stories and it's got to be as scary as any modern horror film that's not what ghost stories turned into no but that was the kernel of the idea um and about the same time i was doing that play moonlight and magnolias which is the first the play where i'd had a was very nervous and started telling myself i'm excited right not nervous yes and the director of that loved working with me and said what do you want to do next whatever whatever you want to do i'll do let's just work together again and i said well me and jeremy dyston have had a couple of ideas for writing these plays and it was one idea and then i said and then there's this thing that is the vagina monologues with ghost stories and he went oh oh what's that because i was going to ask you how do you know an idea's got legs and is it when you get responses like that are you going well i knew it did right i just knew it did and i said to jeremy if we can make this work this could be a pension now of course that's a very naive thing to say however it has been on for on and off for 16 years it's on as we speak it's on as we speak in the west end um and but you also just have to again it goes back to that thing where you just have to trust yourself as an artist and i don't say that as a wanky term i mean as someone who works in the arts or a show business and that's ultimately it boils down to you to think i like that idea and of the 500 ideas that you think let's do that let's do that that's going to work 487 of them will die in their ass 13 of them will get a bit of life in them and three of them might actually go but it's interesting what you if you take the three the nuggets right you've gone um vagina monologues so business wise it's an easy thing to sell because it's cheap and then you've looked at something you're passionate about and you compared it to something that already exists so you've hit like your passion but as an artist you haven't gone i'm doing a a horror thing and the budget's this you you've you've kept the business side at the same time right well there's also you know there's a real thing about art and commerce and how that they butt heads but they're actually be very useful if you can get your head around it to sort of you know there's no point when jeremy and i was sort of writing the rules of what ghost stories was you look at the woman in black which is amazing and at that point have been on for 20 years and you go there is no point us doing a victorian ghost story play because we can only be not as good as the woman in black yeah so our play should be utterly contemporary there hasn't been a contemporary horror play will be utterly contemporary will be an hour and a half no interval it will have jump scares as bold and as big as any modern horror film yeah cool and that means you're automatically a completely different thing from the woman in black that is this brilliant period piece slow burn mr jamesy style ghost story so did you start so you had these ideas and then you have rules did you start with these plus the rules and then eventually plot started it's not like you were one day and went i've got a great idea for a story and then that well no then we just met up but then he came to me and he stayed at mine for we live in different parts of the country he came and stayed at mine and we spewed out what are the moments in horror films that we love what do we love what do we love what do we love what are the what are the bits in plays you've seen that you love that can be anything from the school play of dracula that jeremy saw when he was nine the teachers put on through to oh god there's this bit in this theme park ride that i love that is anything that excites you and inspires you and you put it all we put it on post-its on the wall great and then you just start looking at it and think oh could that go with that and that with that and that with that just put that to the side that's the discard bit for a minute yeah and then you just it's just one step at a time so you're just mining you're asking yourselves the right questions essentially it's just so once you've got the the idea of the the parameters and then you've asked yourselves well question one what are the rules bang and then question two is right what do we know on this subject and then just throwing it all down before even putting the pressure on we need to get a script we need to do this it's just like mind what we've got but ben what what's interesting is you know you talk about magic yeah writing plays subtext it all boils down to the same stuff which is if you pour into it you're the things that fascinate you the more there was something really interesting about doing fiddler on the roof you know that's a show that has survived 70 years it's never been out of fashion tragically it is as pertinent as it always has been and you would go out and do that show and you would see in the audience you know there are very few pieces stories within modern drama and art that are specifically jewish that is one of the few great pieces of art modern art that you go that is that is specifically about my great-grandparents you go out to that show and you see chinese families in the audience ranging from kids to grandparents you see pakistani audiences uh families you see bangladeshi families you see malaysian families you see you know and the thing that's absolutely incredible about that people that you know culturally traditionally for whatever reasons you don't see in British theatres so much.

32:05What's amazing about this is the more specific you make something about your human experience, the more it speaks to other people. Yeah. Because ultimately we are all the same and we have the same fears and experiences and emotions and feelings.

32:28Ben Hanlin: Hello, it's me. We're going to take a very short commercial break, even though it's not really a commercial break because I've got no sponsors. But this is Andy Nyman. What a fantastic speaker. Doesn't he just talk so well? And when I came up with this show and I was thinking about people I'd like to interview, honestly, Andy was almost top of the list. So as a guest as well, he really is not disappointed. So a couple of plugs for Andy. As I mentioned, he's currently starring in The Producers. And The Producers, written by Mel Brooks, it's hilarious. if you're someone that's not that into musical theatre but want to go and see something this is a great show because it's got some naughty jokes it's funny it's got some great music so I think almost anybody will love the producers it's fantastic so go and check that out also as he mentioned The Psychic is something he's writing at the moment that's going to be in the York Theatre Royal in April and May so if you're in the York area go and check that out also you can follow Andy on socials and see what else he's up to and he mentioned those two books golden rules of acting and more golden rules of acting you can get them off amazon or wherever else you want to buy your books and there's loads of great tips in there as well from a personal note thanks again for all the comments and dms and all the support on this podcast if you enjoy this episode so far please do me a favor hit like hit follow hit subscribe and as always i'm going to say to you if you know somebody that might love this episode i'm talking an andy nyman fan a magic fan a deron fan musical theater fan whatever if you think somebody might like this please do me the biggest favor ever and just share the link with this podcast to them and that's how we're going to get more people to listen to this and build a little community and you can drop me a dm at any time at benhanlin on instagram and i'll send you a reply back as well so right let's get back into the episode we're going to pick things up with andy getting him to talk about how he writes with derren brown enjoy so obviously you've written lots of his shows over the years and a lot of his tv work and i've explained that in the introduction things like that so let's talk i mean by the way something wicked this way comes which is just one of many brilliant shows i just it's i think derren's put it out on his youtube channel so these older shows also are there you can watch them all so do go and watch them which are great um and i and as a show if you've not seen the derren show it's a theater show it's unbelievable there are twists there are turns there's amazing magic but then there's depth of plot the thing and also as well about derren and he works as a team but as a showman and as a performer it's unbelievable it's brilliant yeah fantastic but the thing i've never really understood because i'm not in the magic circle like you are i'm not in the other team how does it start then does it start with a trick does it start with an idea does it start with a single line it literally honestly starts with when you're doing let's talk about the theater because the telly is a different the telly as you know having been made telly shows it is an insatiably greedy beast that will never be satisfied so you you're just dredging anything to fill three and a half minutes of telly yeah you know it's a very different thing to creating a theatre show the theatre shows start when we know all right this is the date we start writing and that's the date we start rehearsals it'll be 12 weeks 14 weeks from now we open in Blackpool to three and a half thousand people yeah we have nothing which by the way as a performer knowing in three and a half months I've got to do two hours of material yeah brand new It's not like you can go through the magic shops and buy tricks.

36:12Ben Hanlin: And if you're looking this to a comedian that maybe spends all year prepping every single night in front of pubs or whatever, you can't even practice in front of audiences either. So this will start with what's happening in our lives. Oh, what tricks are you thinking about? What's this? What's that? And very often it will be Darren's also right. Tends to write a book at the same time as he's doing. so his book will be about happiness yeah you know for instance one of his brilliant books so it'll be okay well happiness should sort of be good if that tied in with what this show is because that's tying in with the work that you're doing and what you're thinking about and i love magic tricks so one of the one of the great yin and yang of me and deron is that he's got this brilliant cutting edge way of thinking and i'm like an old vaudevillian and i spend loads of money on tricks i'm never going to do but i'm like oh that's a good method and i love buying weird supreme magic tricks or old tricks that everyone disregards because they think what a weird looking thing that is it's useless and within it are often very brilliant deceptive methods and they just sort of get logged in your mind and forgotten about because you bought it learned it sold it at the magic circle flea market but they'll come a day when suddenly like holy shit you know what we could do yeah i had this thing and it's this yeah you could do that but that doesn't help where it actually starts where it starts is you know so if i think about showman which was the last one i did you know part of that started with Darren's dad was poorly at the time and then died actually as he got died of COVID as he got into the show and that's sort of the starting point where are you in life what's happening yeah so you just start you just start by talking just Start by talking.

38:19And then at what point do you go, okay, so there's a theme here or there's a really weird thing, which is very often you have to choose the title of these shows a year and a half before the show's written because they need to book in the show in the theatres, which can book in a year ahead. So you're trying to find a vague word, enigma. Yeah. Yeah. showman showman yeah sort of you know it's vague enough that it's intriguing but you know has got a bit of sort of oh and what's amazing is it becomes a sort of guiding light as you start writing the show and you think oh actually what's interesting is when someone says oh how you doing and you're like yeah yeah i'm really good but actually you're dealing with your wife's illness that relates to the term showman you're putting a show on you're putting a mask on to pretend you're okay yeah well suddenly that's a plot which is i want you to think about something in your life you wish you could change right that is difficult for you that you're struggling with you know three and a half thousand people in there three and a half thousand people are going to have something they're struggling every one of your listeners will have something they are currently struggling with i want you to think about that and i'm going to ask you how you're doing and i want you to say i'm doing great actually like you would do if your mate asks you and the minute they ask you that and you go something to do with your is that your sister or your this or your that holy shit that's a plot

40:04Ben Hanlin: that's a plot yeah it's in such a small journey you've gone from essentially what is a think of somebody you're thinking of your sister to something so much deeper so much cleverer in just a few extra sentences yeah and it's not like i'd pre-thought that and let's talk about it it's and that only comes from and look i'm also aware that's a derren brown stage show you know who wants to be doing that at a corporate event hey guys hope you had a good day of golfing so i want you to think about something you're struggling with and you know yeah it's all about context of course and and you need material that yeah that they don't need to be thinking about worrying about but in terms of creating let's say art with a capital a as opposed to just your working material yeah the stuff that you can go and i'm going to be working on a book actually i've done a couple of lectures um about how you start working like that and i'm gonna i'll write it up at some point i'm very close to starting that because it's just about having the courage to think the stuff i'm going through or the things i've got i've got a terrible allergy to pineapple it nearly killed me when i was a kid all right that's that's a piece there you go so there's no point me doing russian roulette with guns at a corporate event but there's something really entertaining and interesting about there is a can of del monte pineapple chunks pour the juice from it into a glass now there's orange squash in the other ones it all looks the same mix them up suddenly that's a plot yeah and that comes from my lived experience who am i what have i got going on in my life yeah that is about me and no one the interesting thing is no one else can do that but you know what's interesting let's look at the starting point of a deron show which if you were To watch that, these shows again and again are some of the best, the best live one-man shows on the planet.

42:26Ben Hanlin: But the starting point is not too dissimilar to how you started Ghost Stories. You went, right, let's brain dump stuff that we like, stuff that's going, you're literally just looking inward every time. 100%. Every time. But that's all there is. And I really believe that if you go outwards, if you're writing simply to please and to write to give to an audience what they want, you can absolutely create product. Yeah. But it's, I don't know that it's product that lasts. And I don't know that it's product that really, truly touches people. now it might be product that means you make a living and that's fine it's not a judgment on it but we're not talking about that we're talking about how do you create the stuff and the only way you can create the stuff that really has an impact is and it's the same whether it's a performance that because as silly as it sounds creating my version of max bialystok as opposed to zero mustels or nathan lanes is about what did i feel like after i'd had a big success and everyone said about you're winning an award for this this will be amazing and then you don't and then you don't work for four months yeah well you take that feeling and you amplify it into what this man is and then and and so consequently when you get to the end of that journey and in the weird perverted way that they do in this show they find a success actually the the real success of this show is they find friendship that's what's sweet and touching and moving about it isn't oh they've done well and they've made money is they found each other because they were really lost and now they've got someone who makes them feel confident and happy and seen yeah um and that only comes you can only make that properly land when you're dealing with what you feel yeah okay i'm going to finish my fast five um five quick questions i'll try and answer fast yeah um i'm going to ask you the my opening question most guests don't know the film but i'm i would be surprised if you have not seen this film are you aware of the film highlander of course great thank you anyway in the film highlander uh when you kill another immortal you steal all of their expertise and their skills if you could keep them alive but still anyone on the planet's skills or expertise who would it be keep them alive but still their you can kill them if you like i mean bloody hell um well look i'm drowning him in him at the moment so mel brooks's expertise are pretty extraordinary his his ability to write unbelievably pointed acerbic satire and do it with kindness and be as funny as that is amazing.

45:26So I'll say that for now.

45:27Ben Hanlin: Great. Question two, time capsule. Out of everything you've ever done in your career, it could be a role, it could be a project you've created, it could be anything. One thing has to go in the time capsule to live forever. The rest is going to evaporate. Ghost stories. Done. I thought it would be. Yeah, fine. If you've not, well, this might not be on by the time this airs, but the film is out. Is it going to, do we know if it's coming back again? The play? Yeah. I think the play will probably tour again in about a year and a half, I would think. Our next play is opening in York next year called The Psychic.

46:02Okay. It's a new stage thriller with scares and stuff. But yeah, that's really exciting. But the Ghost Stories film is out there. It's currently on iPlayer. But if not, you can always see it. Culture Vulture.

46:14Ben Hanlin: What's the one book, film, TV thing you've consumed lately that you've loved? I just rewatched Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Oh, so good. I absolutely adore Tarantino. I mean, I know that's hardly like, really? You like Tarantino? I mean, but I just adore him. And again, because it is the very embodiment of he's pouring every ounce of his obsessive personality onto the screen from the music, every detail of it. I love him. Especially if you are a film buff. He just takes on a whole genre, doesn't he? Magic Wand. You're the only guest that probably has their own Magic Wand or a collection of wands.

46:50I've only got one.

46:50Ben Hanlin: I bought it at the Leeds One Day Sunday Funday about 30 years ago. There you go. But you can use my one for this. You borrow my one. You can make anything vanish in the world of TV, film, theatre. It can be a style, a genre, anything you want. That's really hard because my knee jerk was going to say reality TV. But then, of course, I think, well, no, I don't want that because I bloody love traitors. and I'm like, you know, maths got me through lockdown and this and that, you know. So get rid of shit. And I'm the arbiter. I'm the judge of what's shit and what isn't shit. Bullshit. Bullshit. There you go.

47:32Ben Hanlin: So, okay. Anything that's just content. Things that call themselves content. Yeah. It's disposable. Fine. And the final question. What is the trick, Andy Nyman? So if another, let's say, I'd say actor then, I suppose, actor or writer comes up to you and says, hey, what is the trick to making a career out of this? What kind of thing would you say to them? I think there are two things that I would say. The first is you have got to love it. You've got to love it because there's too much pain and sacrifice not to. Because if you there's too much rejection, there's too much. when you are working missing holidays rescheduling telling family members you can't go to their weddings you know there's too much of that there's too much disappointment when you're in something you think it's going to be amazing and it nosedives and it doesn't turn into what you think it's going to be so you you can only thrive on the love of it that's the first half of my answer and the second half of my answer is be nice yeah because that helps you have the longevity to actually find the every now and thens that are like oh this is a gem this is brilliant this one works yeah um if you're not nice people know and your career won't last that's no those are two fantastic bits of advice thank you so much for doing this Andy I've loved it thank you mate cheers so that's it for another episode of what's the trick thank you so much for listening as always I'm Ben Hanlon and I am loving making this series so please do let me know on socials at Ben Hanlon drop me a message just let me know that someone out there is listening and you're part of the what's the trick family that'd be lovely uh feel free please to subscribe and drop a review on wherever you podcast from.

49:32Ben Hanlin: It really does make a difference. If you ever want to watch these, they are on YouTube. We stick out the long form. We stick out the short little videos as well. So we'll see you next time for another episode of What's the Trick?