Derren Brown: The Psychology Behind Extraordinary Performers

0:00In that first week, a woman coming up who had been paralysed on one side of her body since she was four. She said she can't believe it, she can move her arm for the first time.

0:09Ben Hanlin: Welcome back to What's the Trick? I am your host, Ben Hanlin, and this is the podcast where I sit down with the world's most creative people and try and understand their creative process. And this week's episode, our guest is the one and only Derren Brown. Ah, I mean, let's just take a moment. When I first started this podcast 20-something episodes ago, he was on my dream list. and we've made it happen and i'll be honest with you this conversation does not disappoint so let's just bring you up to speed on deron he got into hypnosis when he was at bristol university studying law and german and from there he went down that rabbit hole of learning hypnosis and everything around that then he discovered magic and he also dabbled in a bit of that and then fast forward to the year 2000 there was the deron brown mind control one hour special on channel four which went down unbelievably well and the reason is just a bit of context is he was doing mentalism and like other performers he created a whole different way of doing it you can pretty much tell you that mentalism has everything before derren brown and then after derren brown he changed the genre and inspired so many other performers to do something similar from there it's been a springboard he's had a huge tv career he's done things like russian roulette the lottery prediction live the apocalypse the push loads of other different tv shows on channel four and on netflix and then he's also written books and the thing i want to tell you about as well is his live shows i always say if you've never been to a derren brown live show you should go and that's how we caught up because he's currently on tour doing only human and i went to see it in birmingham the night before we recorded this and then we caught of course up in birmingham and talked about it and in this episode we talk about i really wanted to discover where the ideas start from these big psychological experiments where do they start and then how do you turn them into what we see on tv or stage so he was really lovely to chat to i'm going to shut up so you can listen to him as well this is what's the trick with derren brown derren i'm going to start with a question which is very simple how do you create a derren brown stage show so where does it start the idea and if we can take it step by step from there if that's cool uh well have it i mean i've done whatever 11 or 12 of them now i think the process has been the same since day one but it mainly comes to the fact i've worked with a team on these things so that naturally sort of shapes it a bit.

2:47I don't give it any thought at all until it's the first stage until it comes to writing time and then we will have maybe a six week period which nowadays is all Zoom when there's three of us which is a good number so on this current show it's been me Andrew O 'Connor and Stephen Long who I'm sure you know as a magician previously obviously Andy Nyman's been very involved and I'm sure will be in the future but he's been busy with other things on this one.

3:16Ben Hanlin: Anyway, so we talk. And I guess I will probably bring the big idea of what I kind of want the show to be about. That's going to be, I've probably arrived at that thought, which may tie in with other things I'm working on or writing about at the time. We all then discuss what that means and find the material together. and then and then it's the other end of the process the actual sort of writing writing I do a lot of that myself as well can we dive into that so at this point then so you get on this Zoom call and you say you've got this six week window has the show gone on sale have you got a title oh god yeah that's all happened oh it's probably sold out by this point which is so strange so you've got this title necessity yeah and what so even the title do you just so comedians do this sometimes where they'll pick a vague-ish title so that it gives them some scope to pick is that kind of happen before totally in fact with this show so i've just totally got used to that because the theaters need their you know artwork in place to advertise your show so far ahead of you actually writing the thing that you need a poster and a title and everything which is why they're always a little bit generic as you're saying they don't really just really bear much relation to the show but they do give you a structure to work with so with this show interestingly the um the poster which is a very modern, all I knew is let's just do something that doesn't look like another sort of faded old world glamour, whatever, you know, decrepit buildings and all those things I've spent a lot of time in.

4:50So it goes to go for something quite modern. Came up with this poster, which I really liked. And I thought, okay, now what's this show about? It could be an advert for a painkiller. Could it be that? Could it be about period pain? Or the future somehow. And then that started to really form the show. A bunch of people were saying, oh, is this show about AI? Because the poster looked a little bit A &E. And then, I mean, it isn't. But it did make me think, okay, maybe the show could be about AI. And it's a very weird way of writing a show to put the poster out, see what people think the show's about, and then write the show around that.

5:23Ben Hanlin: And when you say you sit down and you've got this idea, this is the thing that I want to almost kind of go just before that element of sitting down there. Where did the kernels start to form? And something I always think about with your career is, obviously you've done 11 of things 11 of these shows yeah yeah you've done a if i was if inspiration and material is a tank of fuel you've you've used a lot of the the tank how do you top it back up where does the the new inspiration or ideas come from and start to enter into the but it's not like you i mean i it's not like you stop thinking about things in your life i think that would be an issue

6:02if I approached my work like it was one thing that I was just going to keep doing until eventually people got bored of it. And I haven't ever done that. I've always just sort of followed my nose through what I find interesting. So when it comes to writing a new show, there's just the question of what I find interesting at that moment. And normally because I'm writing, you know I always have a I don't always have a book on the go but normally I'm planning something or there's normally something in my head that will be enough of a kernel of an idea to let's make the show about this so that those things don't run out because you know it's been a couple of years since the last time I had to think of something I was thinking about and hopefully I've thought about a few other things in the meantime so I think if you're not just trying to do the same thing all the time then that stuff would is just going to kind of keep on

6:53Ben Hanlin: giving so the first phase for you is almost inward looking of what's going on in your life what is the the theme or the conversations or the thoughts that are interesting and pulling your attention it's sort of yeah what's the key urge i mean i remember thinking this show could be about love like and it isn't really that's not what it ended up being about but that was the first thought and i messaged them andrew and i said let's let's make sure about love i haven't done a show about love and actually it's a really interesting and big area and it's relevant to all of us and how weird that a magic show might be about love and there's plenty of sort of magic tricks that are sort of you know have a love theme but you know a proper it's a proper look at it would be interesting and then it became something completely different and then of course the other thing is which maybe we'll come to but you know you can get the show up on the road and now it's written and it's running and you realize it's about something else and then you slowly shift it to that which has certainly happened with with this show as well where it's ended up being isn't quite what the original plan was um because it kind of becomes its own shape for people who don't do what you do is you put a show on sale you've sold out you've got with no idea what the show is then you write the show and at that point sometimes you don't even know what the show is that being almost relaxed enough to let it mold itself over time.

8:19Ben Hanlin: I would have thought another answer someone might have said would, well, I've got an idea for a theme and then we go in and then that's what it's going to be. And that's essentially just gets tweaked and changed. But no, you're a bit more fluid than that. Years ago, I had a ghost train ride at Thought Park. Yes. And it was all like VR and cement and steel and a big plot thing that was built for it. And then this sort of VR thing at the heart of that. And it was interesting because it was like, you know, once the VR was in place, you couldn't change it. Once the steel and concrete was in place, you definitely couldn't change that.

8:56And those things are done sort of quite early on. And it was a bit like if in a play, the moment someone's built the set, which is sort of quietly gone in the background, while you're still working on the script, you're still rehearsing, you're then told, okay, that's it, no more changes. And it was sort of fascinating that how by not having the ability to let something continue to grow and change is how that totally sort of arrests the process. So actually, I think it's really important to have the freedom. And it's difficult now. There's one thing we're finding in this show. So you came and saw the show last night.

9:35We're in Birmingham at the moment doing it. And we are halfway through the second leg of the tour. So I've done maybe 300 of these shows and we're still making big changes. So the ending of the show you saw last night, we only changed a couple of days before you saw it. So that's a constant process, which is strangely helped by the fact that it is so slow and difficult to make changes.

9:54Ben Hanlin: So this is what I wanted to talk to you about. This is famously you will change things and you'll constantly make. And let's dive into this in a little bit more detail. you'll make notes and you'll change them right up to almost the last night of the show pretty much if you think there's an improvement to be made so i suppose yeah let's talk about where we are right now you're half halfway ish through the run of this tour yeah how happy are you with the show in your point of how finished it is and when do you feel like bits and things are finished and how are these notes given and then changed go on let's dive into that whole sequence of it Well, for a long time, it's going to be Andrew, who's directing, watching the show.

10:35And he's the one that's going to spot the stuff. I'll have a sense during the show, this isn't right, this isn't right. And I'll pass some of those things on if I can remember them. I have a code word that I say on stage. I won't say what it is because then it'll distract people. They come and see it. And it's to tell the people backstage, just make a note of this moment. Really? That's interesting. It'll be something silly like, you know, it could be anything from, okay, look, there's a candle on stage, which you guys always put out for me. That candle needs replacing because it's only an inch tall.

11:04But I'll forget that until the same moment of the show tomorrow. So I have this word that I say, they make a note, then they say, all right, you said it at the bit when the candle came out. Oh, yes, yes. Can you please replace the candle? It's too short. Or it might be, I think this bit isn't working. I've got a vague sense of what it is. But I just need to, it's like a dump and to go. Can you remind me of this afterwards?

11:22Ben Hanlin: Do you ever do a code word for something you've, sometimes you come up with funny, we all come up with like little funny lines and you go, I hope I can remember that line. Oh, I just remember that. No, it's only when there's something wrong. Okay, cool. So there's that. And then, so the first stage is just like, it's like a big bag of wet cement and it slowly every night sets a little bit. And then there's the other stage. You've now got a solid thing of cement and now you're kind of, you know, polishing it and trying to make it shiny. So that goes on for a while. Again, because of the technological difficulties, that just is very slow, but that's fine.

11:57So I quite like the fact that it's been a slow process of change because I had those, you know, those moments and the periods in between to actually kind of enjoy it. And then also we've got the West End coming up. So things like that are helpful because in the West End, because you're in one theatre for a long time, there's just a bunch of stuff that you can do. because it doesn't have to be a touring entity that can fit any size and shape of venue. So you've really got an opportunity to make the show look and feel at its best. So we're also using the time now to kind of set up for that. So we are looking at anything we can change now because it's much harder to change that when you're in the West End.

12:36So again, there's another very practical consideration that, you know, it's a bit like the show's already sold out and you've got to write one. You know, just those natural things keep you going and keep you finding ideas.

12:50Ben Hanlin: Well, let's go back a bit. So obviously you've sat on this call and you've bashed around ideas and I'm assuming just to speed things up a bit, I'm guessing you talk about the top line and then people challenge you and you come up with three things down. When do you start thinking about, and I'd be careful, I don't want to say tricks, but when do you start thinking about the wow moments? Because other performers, especially if they're doing things that make people go, oh my gosh, that's amazing. Sometimes they start with that and go, I want to do this, this and this. whereas it feels like in that writing process you've not even started there yet.

13:21Ben Hanlin: We definitely don't start we definitely don't start with the tricks there might be something floating around from the start oh you know what we've never done? X. You know like probably the spirit cabinet was a bit like that I did in one of the shows I just thought it was so good to do a spirit cabinet so there might be a little bit like something like that that floats around and then normally it's you know not everything has to sit squarely but generally it's what the show's about what do you want the audience to go away thinking and feeling? What's the call to action? What's the thing that you want to wake up the next morning and go, right, I'm going to do this now?

13:58But ultimately, if the show's only about how the tricks are done, to me it's not very interesting. You're going to have that anyway if people don't know how they're done. You've got that question. If only being annoyed and wanting to know how it's done. That's going to be there anyway. So that's sort of a given. But the challenge and the fun is what is the show actually about? So like, you know, with the TV shows that I've done, there's the hook. Can this guy land an airplane or, you know, find his way home or whatever, kill Stephen Fry? But beneath it, there'll be some sort of subtext. The show's actually about this, but you let that breathe and find its way out.

14:36So likewise with these shows, there's the tricks or the routines. and then there's this sort of through theme and then there's something that comes out of the theme that is allied to it. I like Peter Brook's idea that it's like a kernel and if you see a, as in K-E-R-N-E-L, if you see a play or something that affects you, that you take away something from, often it's just like this seed of an idea. It's not entirely clear. You're not told exactly, hey here's what this is all about but you've just got this thing that you can't quite articulate sticks around it sticks around you take that away with you and it hopefully like a seed it kind of you know does its job and sort of germinate so that that would be the ideal and then of course

15:28Ben Hanlin: on top of that it's you know what i want to just so you you're getting these ideas and these thoughts and these i guess tricks are starting to form here and the thing that i always find the most baffling as a performer is you're going on stage at some point at the end of this six or eight week process in front of a thousand odd people well there's also the rehearsal process that's yeah so which is after that which is this um this idea that you're doing a two and a bit hour show last night the material that i'm guessing a year or two ago you didn't know because it's essentially all new for this show how do you then start rehearsing it because a lot of this as well only works on big audiences are you a machine are you getting up every day nine till five and just rehearsing is Is there a drill that you do?

16:08There's, well, so we finish the writing process and then there might be a little gap of letting things germinate a bit and then we start rehearsing. So rehearsals is normally, again, sort of four to six weeks in a rehearsal room with the three of us and then a bunch of ASMs and I've got this really, really wonderful group with this show. And then I think it starts off with just us so we can just think about the magic-y methods of it and the nitty-gritty and just find it before you start bringing in all the grown-ups, as it feels like, who then want to see something a little bit more complete so they can find their role in it.

16:47So we have maybe, I don't know, the first week or two is just sort of playing around and we kind of find it and get it up on its feet. So by that point, I'm turning up not with a script, but I'm turning up with here's what the show is. Maybe there's simple chunks of script in there, depending on how much actual writing, writing I've done. And then we try it. And Andrew will watch and Andy will watch if he's co-directing. And then they'll get a little between us. But something Andrew said, which I think is very true. The moment I'm in the rehearsal room, I become, I totally hand everything over to them.

17:26So during the writing process, I'm driving it. I think it's fair to say. but in the rehearsal process I've become quite submissive to me that's now their job and I'm tentative in putting things forward because I kind of I decide that's you know that's really not not my job so much but we still we still all discuss it and find the show and then we end up with something that um works in a rehearsal room but you're right I mean like the whole of the second half of Miracle which one of the shows I did was Faith Healing um and I often do things that there's a bit in this current show as well that you're dealing with a whole audience their levels of suggestibility so i'm kind of fairly confident oh this will work on a percentage of people but you just don't know how and then you know the whole of the second half was faith healing in miracles so there may have been no second half if it didn't work and all i did know about faith healing and i'm talking about that you know kind of evangelical style is that whenever that's done and whenever it's been done that audience are on side they're turning up and they're expecting it and they feel they need it and my audience i knew would just the opposite of

18:35Ben Hanlin: that they'd be skeptical they'd be surprised by it so you mean people that claim to be faith healing that the people are so suggestive because they bought tickets to believe yeah they want to be there and they know they're coming to see here and yours if you put you couldn't handpick a worse crowd exactly because they are known for going yeah this is all bs yeah and that's why we love Darren. Exactly. So I hadn't, I really had no idea. And then I remember just going out on, I don't know if it was quite the first night, but in that first week, a woman coming up who had been paralyzed down one side of her body since she was four.

19:05She was in her 40s. She's in tears. So she can't believe it. She can move her arm for the first time. And it was fascinating because I know I'm doing nothing other than providing some adrenaline and a kind of a, sort of an emotional event and then that then became that then becomes the interesting stuff to lean into so you let that come out more though that the whole experiential side of it become the real meat and then actually some of those mechanical tricks you might take out i mean maybe at the end you want to make sure there's no chance of it not coming together but you might take some of those things out because now what you've just got is this fascinating human experience It's being lived out night after night.

19:47But it was amazing. I mean, of all the things I've done, it was the most interesting for me. Every night I was just discovering some extraordinary thing.

19:56Ben Hanlin: So I went last night with my wife. And she obviously, I mean, she needs a medal. She's lived with a magician for 20-odd years. So she's dead behind the eyes there, Darren. Do you know what I mean? It's not happening. But there was a bit last night. And obviously, we're not allowed to talk about the show, but I think this kind of thing happens in a lot of your shows. So I think we can edit this out if it's okay. but a woman comes up on stage and you put your hand in front of her face and you say sleep and she turns her head over which you've done before on other things and I kind of expect I'm like yeah it's what Darren does he just does these things and my wife turns to me and goes okay how's that how is that happening now can you give us a glimpse as to what's happening in the brain there or do you think so the first thing is it's different from night to night they don't always react like that but of course people will only have their story of the night that they saw it.

20:45You've got a wide range of how people respond. But essentially, at that moment, I have two people come down where they're at the bottom of the steps and I'm going to bring one up and do the first bit and then I'm going to come to that woman later. So I have, and there's a few moments like this in the show, I have like four seconds to go, which one of these two is the suggestible one. so last night there was a woman who sort of had a slightly sensible air about her and one woman was very colourfully dressed and was slightly slightly buzzy at the thought of coming up she was not exactly trying to get up first but she just had that energy about her so great I'll go with her second I'll use the other woman first because I know what I need from the other woman for the other thing.

21:39And so I make that decision. And then normally I sort of get that right, not all the time. And when that second woman came up and I had that sleep moment, she did respond well to it last night, but that's maybe, you know, half the time. And the other half the time it's still like, oh, what's going on there?

21:55Ben Hanlin: And maybe it's a bit creepy, but it isn't like, what the fuck's that? She's just, she's asleep. What's just got, you know, when sometimes, you know, so it really varies. And there's another point in the show where I'm putting people to sleep in the audience. I'm out doing that in the audience. And I get, because I'm very close up to it, I get a real sense of who's really responding to it with like every ounce of their being and who isn't. And then again, I can kind of choose who to work with best. So I'm doing a lot of that sort of filtering out. But ultimately, with the aim of making it look like I can just sort of click my fingers and do this stuff to anybody.

22:30And of course, I can't just walk up to someone in the street necessarily and do that. But in certain scenarios, I could, like if they recognize me. A lot of it is just the sheer, I mean, the handshake moment that you're talking about. So I bring this woman up. She's just seen me do something weird with someone else on stage. Now she comes up. Now it's her turn. It's weird coming up on stage. I bring her up, but I purposely don't ask her a name. So she's not been made to feel comfortable yet. I tell her to come and sound a little red cross and turn the face to the audience. So she's getting used to following specific instructions.

23:07Like there's a sense of I have to do this correctly. All right. She turns the face to the audience. As she looks at the audience, she realizes she can't see the audience. She hasn't had a chance to see that yet because there's just blackness. So that's very odd for her. Disorientating. Exactly. Yeah. So then at the height of that oddness, I ask her name. She says it. I go to shake her hand and then I interrupt the handshake. And now this is, it's a sort of hypnotic technique, which is not my own, but you, you, you, you know, somebody comes up to you in the street that you don't know and says, it's not 20 to eight.

23:44Your reaction isn't to go. Yeah, I know. It's, it's just like a bewildering. Your brain is confused. Your brain is confused and you want something to make sense of the situation. and a handshake is a it's such an automatic thing you're all used to you take the hand you shake the hand you you're just sort of going through this thing that if someone interrupts it like they don't take your hand and they bring your hand up to your face and say sleep it it's the relief from that moment of bewilderment which i've exaggerated by them yeah up on stage all those things though here's a clear example telling them what to do sleep and with it i keep talking just let yourself properly drift down and da-da-da-da-da-da.

24:21Ben Hanlin: And before they know it, they're just going with it. Yeah. And then, as I said, there's a difference. Some people will, if they're naturally suggestible, I can see they're properly going with it. They might fall over. They might collapse back. They might, like the woman last night, sort of stand with their head hanging oddly. And other times I can see that they're just sort of doing what I'm telling them, but they're not really in it in the same way. But it doesn't matter too much for what I'm doing, so that's fine. Great. Well, thank you for sharing. That was just because it's something that we've seen hypnotists do in the group, but it usually is they're going through a lot more processes.

24:56Ben Hanlin: And it was just the shock of seeing someone who was smiling one second to then bang head down. It was really fascinating. hello it's ben this is a short commercial break but for you regular listeners you'll know it's not really a commercial break because we do not have any sponsors but what i can do is we can give a plug to mr derren brown himself as i've said if you have never been to a derren brown show go to it only human is on tour you can go to uh it's nationally still going around the country and then it's going to be in the west end towards the end of the year have a look at that you can find that on google and find out at derren brown's website and his tour dates and he's also on instagram so you can give him a follow there you will not be disappointed other things for me to tell you is you might wonder what do i do outside of this i do a lot of performing and keynotes about human connection and it's really nice this conversation with derren reinforces a lot of that actually so if that's for me if you're someone who's involved in conferences or corporate events Have a look at BenHanlon.com and you can see what I've been up to there.

25:59Ben Hanlin: And then what I need to say is thank you to all of you listeners. If you're new here, you are very much welcome. I'm trying to build this community of people that want to have these conversations all about creativity. And we are about 25 episodes in or so now. And if you can, it'd be amazing just to hit that subscribe button so you don't miss next week's episode. If you want to give it a star rating, that helps. But the one thing I'm going to ask you to do is who do you know who would love this conversation? Is it a magician that you know? Is it someone you know who's been to the Derren Brown show?

26:33Ben Hanlin: And if so, send them this on a WhatsApp link or just say, hey, give this a listen. Oh, that's another listener just joined us, maybe. And the idea is if every week we can share this with another one person or another one person, eventually this lovely community of people who want to hear these conversations is going to grow. That's my plea over. So anyway, that's enough from me. Let's get back into this. This is What's the Trick with Darren Brown. You walk on stage for thousands of people. And again, it's very rarely that there's a show with just one person at the helm of this thing for two and a bit hours.

27:07Ben Hanlin: And there's a thousand or a couple of thousand people there. And you manage to connect with them. And let's start with how do we do that then, Darren? How do we find a connection with these people? So I used to go watch magic conventions a lot when they'd have these sort of gala shows. There was always a moment when the emcee would introduce the next act. There's normally a microphone on stage and there's like five seconds and you're waiting for the next person to walk on. And I used to find that moment so enticing. and I just remember this feeling because you're getting it again and again where there's an empty stage, there's a microphone, there's all this like bristling feeling of potential and it's so interesting when somebody walks out within, before they've reached the mic, you're either totally on their side and going wow or you're like ugh and there's quite a lot of ugh if you're watching a range of, you know, a variety of magicians.

28:06So that, it is fascinating what is it that everyone's responding to in that second?

28:14Ben Hanlin: Isn't it that as an audience member, we're trying to work out, are we going to be in safe hands or not? Exactly. And we're excited, but also slightly stressed. And the moment we can see it displayed, we relax and go, great, we're on the road. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's a very difficult thing to sort of tease apart. but what you what you bring onto stage is enormous but it's not and it might be stuff you think about a lot consciously at the start but ultimately you sort of don't you're just aware i i find myself thinking about a little bit because this show starts with the sort of the um the sort of iron or the what's like an iron it's just like the curtain goes up and i'm just I'm stood there and for a little while I'm just stood behind that thing listening to the thing that's playing and can sort of hear the audience buzzing and I'm slightly kind of checking my flies are done up and all those sort of things and then I sort of get into position and I'm very aware that nothing changes in me my heart rate doesn't go the only thing I have is that maybe there's slightly displaced nervous things if my flies are done my socks pulled up I just pull them up again there's a little bit of that but I don't experience any sort of sort of shift only because I've done it so many times right and I think that I probably managed to pull off I'm very very relaxed on stage yes it doesn't feel stressful it's different when the show is just opening or you're doing it for the first time or it's changed six times that week and you're just struggling to remember when your brain's having to work hard yeah but generally speaking I think if you can be very relaxed that's the big thing that people respond to but of course it's not just enough to be relaxed you that has to be coupled with certain skills and way that you then look at an audience you know that thing of you you can always tell when someone is used to playing larger audiences because they look up because they you know if there's a balcony there they look up one of the things i i know i have to do and it's second nature now is check where all the exit lights are in the darkness because if i can look at those then i know i'm i'm i'm covering like i'm including everybody, because I'm looking just above the heads of everybody in the audience.

30:32Ben Hanlin: That's a great tip. I don't know if many people listening will have to use that on tip. Yes, this does. Well, but it is a thing. Yeah, absolutely. Because you can tell the magicians that only play small houses because they look down. And if you look down at the people in the front row, which is the natural tendency to do, everyone feels very excluded. So there are little funny sort of technical things like that, you know, about where you look. and of course your body language and all that stuff. And I've sort of, I'm tinkering around at the moment with just sort of how I just play that the first 10 seconds of coming out just to sort of maximize because it slightly takes people off guard.

31:15We had a weird thing where we brought that, so that appearance, right? Which is, it's just a curtain goes up and I'm just stood there. But for various technical reasons, we moved it back. So I'm further up stage, right? further towards the back of the stage exactly the same thing curtain goes up and i'm there and it was really interesting the applause first just died by half and some nights there was nothing like no one clapped at all and it was eggy like it was oh hello and nervous laughter yeah and we couldn't work out what it was all this happened is just gone back six feet and that's all it was and then we just rearranged everything put me back right the front of the stage and suddenly

31:51Ben Hanlin: all the because you're bigger as well like you're i'm bigger you're there you know you're closer to them yeah yeah exactly so there you know there are there are those sorts of things and i'm yeah i so because it's a weird moment um i think that the applause i get at that moment doesn't quite match the anticipation i can hear the electric sort of buzzing in the audience beforehand so i'm now just for myself playing around with how to make that applause and stuff bigger so there are technical things like that but essentially i think the key thing is is this person at home on stage and if they are then i think we in the audience feel relaxed in the company and that's such a big well interestingly again i was chatting to my wife on the in the car home last night and she used this pretty much this actually went obviously the show is great and someone she was just seems like such a lovely man oh i was like no he really no but but that and i want to talk about likability okay and i think don't be modest here because i think let's look at this you are very likable and there's a lot of performers that don't get that and there's this that makes people thousands of people want to be in the room have you worked out how you've done that or how that comes across because i love it i love it but like this is the granular thing of actually yeah yeah Be likeable.

33:12Ben Hanlin: People go, I want to be in this person's company. But how do we do that? Okay, so I think there are a few things, I think, which I've... My manager suddenly said to me a few years into it. He said, it's unusual. You're the only magician where the show is about the audience, not about you. And I actually found that a really helpful thought. because now when we go into these shows, all right, let's remember the show is about the audience, so where does that thought go? Like it's helpful to have somebody articulate something like that that you haven't really thought of. So, and particularly with magic, I think a lot of the reason why a lot of magicians are sort of a bit unlikable is that they naturally make it about themselves.

33:59But you are, you know, you're the magician on stage who's apparently got special powers. Like you've won that game of status. you don't now need to play that out you know you've won the game you don't need to keep playing it right so I love one of the things I really love about comedians is all good comedians not all comedians but the ones I love anyway is that they make fun of themselves right so they're playing generally lower status which is easy to do as a I say easy but easier to do as a comic because you can have you know ludicrously exaggerated opinions or funny misunderstandings about stuff which make it look like a fool but it allows you to get away with um actually talking about how we might live better within all of that stuff which i love which common is doing right i'm saying it because magicians have the problem of high status so if you're playing a higher status than your audience it would be very hard to then um talk about how we might you know live and I like to talk about that stuff so because I find that more interesting than the magic so a very helpful thing I found is to undercut my status as much as I can so I really try not to play up to it and if I do it's it's in a very it's in a um a specific way to sort of heighten the thing that I'm doing at the time but my my character is is as much as close to the best version of me I can think of and isn't um isn't self-serving I'm not saying look at me aren't I clever so it's all a whole thing of having your cake and eating it really but you just you know you don't want to be if you're going to talk about life stuff as I tend to do you don't want to be preachy so to make it not preachy you have to come from your own place of your own vulnerability so that's another level to it is to make the show one in which for all your status and special powers, you're all so vulnerable.

36:01And that thought really comes from Teller. And a discussion we had years ago, which was really formative for me, Teller of Penn and Teller, when he said that classically in drama we find god figures are not interesting. If you can click your fingers and make anything happen, that's not interesting dramatically. What's interesting dramatically is a hero. And a hero is someone who struggles, has vulnerabilities and may end up and probably will end up somewhere different from where they thought they were heading um and i thought that was fascinating and particularly fascinating for magic and it's one of the reasons why my tv shows shifted from me doing my stuff out on the street or wherever or in some dilapidated building to being behind the scenes and now you're watching a member of the public a hero go through exactly that sort of journey some sort of hero's journey and i'm just the guy behind the scenes and that seemed far more interesting dramatically and therefore i think brought more longevity with it in terms of my career and probably made me a lot

37:09Ben Hanlin: less annoying as well and he's going back to i think they say making it about him there's a couple last thing i want about the station and then we will talk about the tv things Very quickly, I've got two words here written Which is openings and finales So one thing I've noticed in your entire career Is, and you've mentioned it briefly But it seems like you give a lot of attention To openings and finales I remember one of my vivid Most vivid memories of your entire career And it's something that maybe wouldn't have connected with There was this one of your TV shows It was an opening of one of the series And it was somebody walking down the street The phone rings, they go in a phone box They answer the phone and you don't know what's been said, but this complete stranger just collapses down in the phone box.

37:49Ben Hanlin: Now, phone boxes don't exist anymore. And that was, we're 30 seconds in to this TV show and it was just a beautiful opening. And a lot of your stage, I'm not going to go through, but a lot of your stage openings have that same impact. It's like you come out, no fat, bang. What's the thought process? Is it literally a case of I want to grab them as quick as I can, I want to disrupt them? Stan Laurel said it, which was start strong, end big. and I think that's the rule. Start with a really strong idea, which can be small in terms of what you're doing, but it's a strong, clear idea that is going to grab everybody and then you finish with big scale.

38:29And I think that's very helpful.

38:31Ben Hanlin: Start strong, end big. I love that. And then I'm going to ask you, what's out of all of the shows, what's one of your favourite tricks, bits, pieces? and it'd be good to kind of understand how that... I've got one that I've written down, even though I could have written loads, but I'll wait for yours. Oh, that's really hard to say. I mean, I can't remember them all as the reality. It was just 20 odd years of doing them, but I think the one that comes to mind is the ending of Showman, which was... Well, it was a lot of... There were like 16 endings to that show, but... 16 endings? Well, it was a lot of it.

39:07It was a very layered ending, but the bit that I mean is this card trick where the audience lose 10 seconds of time. You ever see it? Do you know what I'm talking about? Yes, I do. Well, some of the audience lose 10 seconds of time. And I think that's what jumps out at my mind. So basically the audience is seeing a card trick and the person on stage keeps blacking out and missing the fact that they've gone and put the card in the box. And then they keep being amazed at the fact that their card ends up in the box, right? So we're seeing them fooled by it, but we're seeing them go and do it. And then finally, we in the audience black out and then the cards in the box and we've missed 10 seconds of time ourselves.

39:49But the challenge was, I said, we can only do this. If you feel in the audience that it's only worked on half, you're one of the people it's worked on. And then the it's weird of the trick is you have this moment where the audience had the blackout bit. And then I'm then going to the box and I'm taking the card or someone's taking the card out. and it's the signed card and all of the things I need to do to finish the thread. No one's paying any attention to that. The audience just... They're just all disgusted. Did you just miss that? Did I miss it? Did you? And people are talking with the neighbours in the rows and it was so exciting.

40:24That was such a lovely bit. So yeah, that kind of... I think that sticks in my mind.

40:30Ben Hanlin: I had one and I hope you don't mind talking about it. I call it the gorilla trick. Oh, the gorilla trick. So what I love... And again, and I've, it's just one that maybe it's the visual image of it. For those that haven't seen it, I'll paraphrase what happened in my brain. You tell me if I get anything wrong. In essence, you playing, and I love your fun bits when you're having fun. It was, here's a banana. It's good. I'm going to put it on this table at the side of the stage and it's going to vanish at some point, but none of you thousand people are going to see this banana vanish. You carry on doing your stuff and then, Oh, the banana's gone.

40:59Ben Hanlin: You missed that. That was misdirection happens again. And then you put it back on there and it's going to happen again. This time you pick up a board and you reveal something by holding a massive board in front of you and then you say look the banana's gone but we can't see you because you've covered yourself with the board and then a gorilla comes out and grabs the banana and everyone goes well i can see that and then you take off the gorilla head and somehow you've switched places with whoever it is on the stage holding the board and you're now in a gorilla suit and it seamlessly happens in about five seconds that's how i remember it i mean have i paraphrased that yeah i mean yeah we start off showing there's a famous gorilla experiment when you everybody misses the gorilla walking into the room.

41:37So we show a version of that film, which is by Daniel Simons, I think was the psychologist behind it. It's a really brilliant and iconic bit of what, psychology experiment. And then, so I say a gorilla's going to walk on stage and take the banana. Everybody misses it the first time. And the second time, they think they've caught it. But then the gorilla takes his head off and it's me. Yeah, that was fun.

41:59Ben Hanlin: So my question is then, that was the trick. Can you tell us then where that idea came from? Do you remember how that formulated? I think it must have come from the guerrilla experiment originally. And then often these things, they just come with a core image that isn't the trick. They come in like that somewhere around the middle. That would be a really, you know, there was in one of the shows, it was, how about someone in the audience in a, they're in a smock, They're walking through the audience like a zombie with their arm pointed out, like a sort of character from one of those Japanese horror films, tranced out, walking through the audience, finding somebody by pointing to them.

42:48And that's just the image. Then you sort of build, what would the trick be around that? And I'm sure that would have gone the same route. And interestingly, the last thing we ever talk about is the methods. All the routines that have gone into the shows over the years that started with a delicious method that we loved, which sometimes is just, you know, really appealing starting point. They're always the ones that get taken out. They just never quite make the top tier material because you haven't started with this image, this sort of whether it's an uncanny or fun or exciting image that you just know is going to work.

43:24And then you found the trick around it. You started with a method, which is never the right way of doing it. And it never quite hits the spot. Great.

43:32Ben Hanlin: Right. So we do. We've talked enough about the stage stuff. And a lot of people go, Ben, you haven't even mentioned TV yet. Now, we're not going to go through everything because there's too much. So I'm just going to start. I pick one thing, I think, because I need some of these. For me, maybe 2003 is when you first did the live special Russian Roulette, which I remember as a fan. And I think it stops the whole country at the time. It was massive. It was huge. So let's go back to that. I think that would be really interesting. How did you walk into Channel 4 and go, right, you've had these pre-recorded series.

44:06Ben Hanlin: We're going to do this thing and it's going to be like nothing's ever been on telly before. How did that come about, Darren? I think this is mainly Andrew O 'Connor. So he was running Objective at the time. it was his idea to do that as a big sort of shouty stunt I think I was probably a bit sceptical about it I'm sort of not very big and shouty as a person and naturally just shied away from big publicity stunts over the years which is silly I've done a few of them I was going to say you've done quite a couple and then And then we all sort of sat around and discussed it. But I think it was... This is funny.

44:54I haven't done TV for a little while and it is different. Like the TV landscape is very different now. It's hard to know that sort of event TV, as they like to call it, how that would sit nowadays. And I have got a TV thing coming up at the end of this year, which is a series. And it'd be interesting to, you know, see how that is. It's, you know, on Channel 4 again, so it'll feel very much sort of in that world. But the idea of people, you know, gathering around a little box, if you can't afford a TV, gathering around a TV to watch these things is kind of, it's sort of exciting. Yeah, it's hard to know what that's like now.

45:33So I don't, yeah, I mean, the reality is I don't really know how the idea was sold, but I think Channel 4 just really liked the excitement of it all. They were and are brilliantly behind doing anything that's sort of, you know, outrageous and stuff. So I think they just went with it. And it was funny at the time. I mean, I was just sort of, we were all just thinking about what's going to go into the show, what are these segments going to be, what's the structure of the actual roulette game at the end, and sort of missing the fact that it was sort of a thing that was in the air like you that totally goes over your head you have no sense of that until you know it's all in the papers or whatever afterwards or people are still talking about it however long later none of that's in your head you're not thinking well i mean andrew made done i certainly wasn't thinking i'm doing this big compelling thing i'm just thinking what's the next bit i have to learn or work out because there was

46:27Ben Hanlin: a similar one i thought that was the same scale where the nation was like hooked was the national the lottery prediction because it happened i think it was a 10 minute or so show yeah at the same time as the lottery so everyone knows when that's on and it was like well are we going to tune in and watch this guy predict the lottery and that did that when you look back on that did that process coming up with that getting it pitched and you are we're obviously not going to talk methods do you go into channel four with a fully formed method and you go that's what it is or do you wait for them to be interested and go now we're going to figure this all out i think that would have been one of maybe like there were four specials that would come out in a little batch together so we'd go to them and say these are the things and again I remember at the time that the lottery prediction was not going to be it the idea wasn't to do it as this big stunt it was just going to be another theme for four you know there would be four hour specials one of them would be about the lottery that it then became a much bigger thing which actually ended up causing its own its own problems and kind of ended up I think in my mind tripped over itself that because of that because we just weren't expecting it to attract as much attention as it did um essentially we so the wednesday was the lottery day and that's when we did this live thing where it's predicted and then there was going to be a show on the friday the reveal show the reveal explaining how it was done and the point of the friday show was going to be this um you know if it was like an hour that an hour or so or a bit less than an hour showing this really wonderful fun method and then at the end this big sort of rug pull of going like it could have been that because it was a fishy method but nonetheless you know a fooling and like which is that where essentially these other people had been this through this sort of wisdom of crowds logic had been a room of people had been able to intuit what the numbers were and they were getting it better and better every week and it was just wonderful.

48:21Anyway, you see all that come to some culmination and then it would be, well, it could have been that or maybe I just fixed it. But if I just fixed it, then I'd have known what those numbers, I could have known what those numbers would have been a year ago. And then we had this extraordinary thing. A year ago at Christmas, we're on Regent Street on top of a bus with a bunch of kids who are out there somewhere who will remember this and know it happened, picking lottery balls out of a sack and holding them up. And this is clearly months and months before and it really was Christmas and it's the lottery numbers that are going to come up however many months later on that night and that was the ending of the show but what happened was that we did the prediction on Wednesday and I think it was the thing the problem was so it was everybody seemed to watch the thing and then because the BBC is you know government and it ended up being came up in Prime Minister's question time or something like that it just became there was way too much heat on it for what was for us just a fun sort of magic trick and then on this thursday we're sort of finishing off editing what will be the friday show and then i just remember i i had to call it in the end if we put this show out that says i fixed it we're going to create so much trouble for ourselves so much for the lottery and for the lottery and everybody and for us and it could just be but we have we have to put the show out because you know there's an hour of channel four that needs the show so i had to call it we just we have to take the rug pull out the way and just so now when you watch that show it is just a fishy explanation that's kind of fine but you've waited a couple of days to find out how derren brown really put into that lottery and then you're being given an explanation that you don't really believe and then being left with that.

50:11And I think it's the only thing I've done that just feels like it's sort of slightly insulting people's intelligence. But that was never what the show was going to be. There was this whole other ending that we just had. So maybe one day we'll show it, show what the actual reveal was supposed to be.

50:24Ben Hanlin: And I mean, we could talk about the TV, but I do think you've spoken about the TV shows as they've come out. And I think I'm conscious of time. So I quickly want to talk about the books. So obviously you're writing, but the interesting thing I think is that you write a book as you're touring. in general yeah so how does that work have you so talk to me like so obviously we're in birmingham today you're here for how are you writing a book at the same time as performing tonight what's your day look like that oh it's a it's a really lovely rhythm and i uh i think i think if you i love writing like it's my it's my favorite thing to do i think and i think if you if you love it like that you need you sort of need to do it and if you're not doing it you can get itchy and muggy and and sort of uncomfortable and even a bit depressed uh so i think it's important to you know know what these things are that you need um so some for me some sort of creative engagement and of course the show gives me that too but the nice thing about writing is it's just you right there is no team i mean there's when you come when it's a book there's marketing people over but in terms of the creative side of it it's just you so i really value it um and then you're on tour which is great in the evenings you could be anywhere during the day somewhere sometimes somewhere nice sometimes somewhere not but maybe you've been on the tour for months and months i mean you need something to do you need a thing to hold those days together that isn't taxing isn't tiring and just makes that whole process lovely so i get up in the morning and go out and find i find the best coffee shops i can find that would do brunch or i can sit with my laptop and i just spend the days writing and i come out of that process if i've had a good you know writing whatever few hours feeling really good about myself and then go off and do the show and if i don't feel good about myself or i haven't managed to do writing and i'm feeling a bit then the show's great because it totally clears all that up and when you when you're sitting writing do you give yourself a process of like some people say to finish halfway through a chapter so you can pick it up the next day or give yourself a pay you just see how you feel on that day and just yeah the only thing i found useful is something hemingway said which sounds a bit grand but i thought it was great of a write drunk edit sober so not that i write drunk but it means just write blah whatever and then i can edit it later don't be editing it as you're writing it but just let yourself you know write whatever and then work out what needs to be cut from that i think that that's of all the writing advice i've come across that's the one that's done great um we're going to start wrapping things up i tell you i want to ask you in this feel free i mean you don't have to answer for someone who's had such an amazing career and you've on the surface You do the books, you do TV, you do, it seems like, everything you want to do.

53:09Ben Hanlin: It's really interesting, and I just wanted to ask, why do you still do it? What's the driver that makes you go, I'm going to come up with a new show, I'm going to go on tour, I'm going to, do you, what's the driver behind that now? Two things, I think. One is, I want to be doing something, like writing. I need something to be doing because I can't just sit around so I started taking a year off in between tours now I used to just tour every year it's hard if you're in a relationship so I'm now taking a year off in between but I do get a bit fidgety You want to use the muscles like this Yeah, it is a little bit of that and also it's not just doing the show it's being on tour being on the road and riding all of those things I just love it it's such a lovely lifestyle and the other thing is again if it's not self-serving to say but I think if you're good at something it's it's important in life to something that you're good at and that you can you can go and do and feel like I'm doing this thing that I'm good at because again in your personal life or your relationship whatever you're not the guy that's good at something you're just someone that leaves their pants around or needs to you know sort out the dishwasher or whatever so having the thing that you're good at and being able to go and do it, I think is a really helpful thing in life in terms of actually just the fulfilment of it.

54:34That's sort of wonderful.

54:36Ben Hanlin: That's a lovely thought of it. If you're good, have something in your life that you are good at. Yeah, and for most people that is their work. You know, you might be a bit dissatisfied at home, but when you walk into the workplace, you're the guy or the girl that does that thing. And that's important to identify that in life if you can. And you mentioned it briefly before, and I've heard you do it before, that you said you're not particularly ambitious, which I find baffling because you've done quite well for someone who's not. It's true. Do you have any, in your checklist, do you have any goals left in your head of going, one day I'm going to, I wouldn't mind trying this or that, or are you just happy just doing more?

55:16I genuinely have never had any. The only thing, bizarrely, when I was book writing today before coming here, I was writing exactly this sentence about this. Oh, really? And I sort of cut it off. I better go see Ben. but um the only ambition i can ever identify in my life really was that i wanted to make a living and as a as a magician you know many years ago and to me that was just about i want to wake up in the morning when i want to and kind of just feel like i'm in charge of my own time and if i don't want to go to work and maybe you know i don't have to and i can go to bed but i will just all those and that was it and those things are very much in the moment those that's like and i remember thinking this very consciously if i take a cross-section of my life does it all look like my day-to-day life how I'd like it to be.

55:58And that's all I've ever really thought about. And as you get older, and as you're sort of, you know, if your career does take off, all those things that you're becoming do sort of become a little fixed, because people then expect more and more of those things. And you can start to feel, you know, what first of all felt like exciting a new identity, then can start to feel quite rigid. So actually, you have to learn to find that feeling if you don't already have it and how to hang on to it of are my days looking how i would like them to look yeah is is this all still where i want it to be i think it's a very important thought and that's the only one that's ever sustained me as part of that i have a manager i've got people like andrew that are very you know grown up and driven in that whole tv production-y world so um if it wasn't for them i'd i'd you know just be swinging on a tire

56:57Ben Hanlin: wanking in a cage probably um so that's the end of the episode thank you so i really you know i owe i owe a lot of that all of that probably to those to those figures but at the same time whether it's you know a moment in the show that i'm thinking about or just what i want to do with the next six months of life it is just what what is what should what what what should be happening in my life what feels right and that um but i've had that from the start that's not just a a privileged thing that comes out of working and earning and i've just had that from day one when i was a student and had no money but was just doing the odd the odd magic gig um and it has led to a successful career but i don't as that's partly because of other people helping drive that but i think it does i think it does work and i i like i like the fact that whatever i do whether it's book writing or tv or stage it'll last a few months and then there'll be something else so there's a sense of just moving from one project to another and i think that that's that's a nice um that's a nice setup thank you and i'm really conscious of your voice because You'll go out to her and do a show in a minute.

58:14Ben Hanlin: So we are going to finish things right up with my Fast Five. It's Ben's Fast Five. Ben's Fast Five. Are you ready for my Fast Five? Okay. Are you familiar with the film Highlander? Is that one? No. That was not the question. This is the setup to the question. Oh, no. I mean, yeah, I've heard that. I don't think I've seen it. It's an 80s film where it's about immortals. They chop other people's heads off. But when one immortal kills another mortal, they get to steal the knowledge and expertise of that person. If you could steal the knowledge and expertise of anyone dead or alive, who would it be?

58:42viking or lafson okay who's a pianist i that's all i can think of i would love to be able to play the piano um so and he's my favorite pianist done so i probably go here fine you've got it uh

58:56Ben Hanlin: time capsule now this is a great question for you darren because there's so much you can put in here we're going to take one thing you've ever done it can be an entire show a project a trick a book whatever you want it goes in a time capsule the rest of your work is gone forever apocalypse straight away i think that's my favorite of the ones that i've done um and out of all the people that have taken part in the shows i've generally kept in touch with um almost all of them i think of these but steven who did that i've seen the most of sorry um the other week and uh so although i wouldn't presume to say that that show changed his life or turned it around but it was it did mean a lot and it has it was um i think uh important in his trajectory of things and it's just wonderful knowing him and seeing where his life's gone through his own efforts again not not attributing that to the show but um all that's yeah brilliant and i'm very proud of the show i thought it was a really good fun and that was the show where somebody thinks that there's a zombie apocalypse they wake up the world's ended we stage the end of the world for them and they wake up in a zombie infested post-apocalyptic world and they have to find their way back to their family it's sort of The Wizard of Oz Great, great.

1:00:08Ben Hanlin: Culture Vulture what is the one thing book, film, TV, anything you've seen or done recently that you'd like to share that you've loved? I haven't done it recently but it's sheer quality trumps that criterion. It's the You Me Bum Bum Train which you must know No. No? No. Darren what's this? Alright, You Me Bum Bum Train I'll say it again you me bum bum train this is the trailer for the pod join me and darren you me bum bum train uh you just want to secrecy when you see it or do it it's the most astonishing theatrical thing what can you tell us about it it's i mean a very inadequate word for it would be an immersive experience but far beyond what that normally suggest um and i really shouldn't tell you anything about it because the joy of going to it not having a clue they only seem to do it every few years and it takes place in you know some somewhere in london and then i don't even know how people find out about it but uh i think it'll always be the most extraordinary theatrical thing i've ever done and i can't bring myself to go back so i've only done it once and it was incredible that is such a mystery that you've just dropped on all of us.

1:01:26Ben Hanlin: We're going, okay, what is this? We're all going to Google right now, Yumi Bum Bum Train. Yumi Bum Bum Train. I'll see you all there. And fourth, penultimate question. I'm going to give you my magic wand. You probably might have your own somewhere. Yeah. With this magic wand, you can make anything vanish from the world of theater, TV, entertainment. Anything you want. What would you like? I think I'd go back to that thing of performers that make it about themselves, whether that's a magician or an actor or really anybody. I think it's just... Not that it matters that much in the grand scheme of things.

1:02:03It's so good to make them disappear. And I'm sure there are plenty of performers that make it all about themselves and do a really fucking great job with it and are phenomenal. But for most mere mortals, somewhere in the middle, I think it's generally why a lot of things are annoying, why some actors are annoying, certainly why some magicians are annoying. and they're just making it about themselves. I think everything in life gets better when you stop doing that. And so I probably, yeah, that's what comes to mind. I could get rid of the thing.

1:02:32Ben Hanlin: And thank you. I'm going to ask you the final question. Hopefully it doesn't repeat this answer. We'll see. Because Darren Brown, what is the trick to having a long and successful career? Do you give one piece of advice? You can repeat something you've already said, if you like. There you go. Don't make it about yourself. It has to be. Simple. And I'm not saying that like, I'm something, you know, whatever, but I, I think it's helpful and just try and do good work as in. Don't worry about the trajectory or whether what other people are doing or whether this worked out or that, just, just do a really, try and do a really good job with the thing that you're doing at the time.

1:03:11And that's all, that's all any of us can do. So yeah.

1:03:14Ben Hanlin: Fantastic. Darren Brown. I've absolutely loved this. Thank you. It's been a real joy. Thanks. So there we go. That was Darren Brown. What an absolute legend. I think looking back on that, the thing that I was really interested about, actually, his answer of, I said, why did you do this? And he said, being good at something. It's good to have that in your life. I've not heard that kind of answer before, which was, yeah, it's just nice to be good at a skill that you've worked at for decades. And, you know, because he's not perfect in other parts of his life. I just thought that was a really interesting take on why he keeps going.

1:03:50Ben Hanlin: Anyway, I can I'm going to shut up. enjoy the rest of your week remember we have an episode every friday so hit subscribe and if you've enjoyed this do drop me a dm uh ben hanlin on instagram and tell me what you think if you know any derren fans because there's a lot out there send them this episode and uh they can give it a listen anyway i will see you all next week for another episode of what's the trick