Matthew Barry: How to Become a TV Screenwriter (Sabrina, EastEnders, and The Guest)

0:00It's called a writer's room, but there's not a lot of writing that happens. My biggest tip is never have blank pages.

0:08Ben Hanlin: Welcome back to What's the Trick? I'm your host, Ben Hanlin, and this is the podcast where I sit down with the world's most creative people to try and understand their creative process from actors, comedians, musicians, you name it. And today's guest is TV writer, exec producer, Matthew Barry. so I really really wanted to get Matt on the show because I've known Matt for 20 years because my wife Bryony it's one of her friends from university they went to the University of Warwick and then Matt left there and got into TV and TV writing and let me give you a quick history of his backstory so he started writing for shows like EastEnders, Casualty, Holby City and then he moved to LA and he got a job on the Netflix show Chilling Adventures of Sabrina writing for that and then his major works are things like men up that was made for the bbc which if you haven't seen it still on iplayer it was about the first ever viagra trial set in swansea in 1994 so what's this blue pill you want me to take where's that going oh my gosh all right that's not a quote from the show that was just me so that was men up but then recently in 2025 he had one of bbc's biggest dramas of the year, The Guest.

1:25Ben Hanlin: So we talk about that because it was one of the biggest shows of the year. So things you need to know about The Guest if you haven't seen it just to bring you up to speed. That show is about a cleaner who goes to work for a very rich lady who looks like she's got her stuff together and then as the episodes unfold you learn more that things are not what they seem. They get very very close and as a result this cleaner's life gets completely turned upside down. It's a good, simple, but brilliant thriller. And it was one of the biggest shows for the BBC. So we talk about that. And what we cover is how did TV writers come up with ideas and then get them eventually made for TV?

2:07Ben Hanlin: How do you pitch them? How does that even happen as a process? So if you ever wanted to know that, it's all in this episode. And also a bit broader themes about Matt's process. So first of all, his mindset, because to do this as a job, he's got a certain mindset which I think you can really tell and learn from and dealing with things like rejection failure writer's block there really is information here for everybody so I was really excited to have the chat let's begin and one thing I didn't tell you is that when he left university one of his first ever jobs was working for Sir Andrew Lloyd Webber so that is where we start the conversation enjoy this it's what's the trick with Matthew Barry i love your first i don't know if this is your first job out of uni but are we allowed are we able to talk about this which one being a pa for andrew sir andrew uh i was i was one of the assistants of the the really useful group yeah uh which was uh andrew lloyd weber's company yeah so how do you get a job working directly and you were just straight out you pretty much out of uni here right yeah yeah yeah yeah and how how did you get that job and what did because it it just sounds like a brilliantly fantastic job for someone in their early 20s to have it was it was really fun so long story short what happened is and i moved to london and i got a job tearing tickets at a theater the palace theater um and it was spam a lot at the time and from that theater was owned by a really useful company andrews uh lloyd webber's company and after a few months i think there was like a job in head office which was literally across the road um so i went and did that and then that was kind of assistant to the office manager and then i became assistant to the head of production so at that point I remember one of my jobs was organizing you know first night parties for Love Never Dies which is a sequel to Phantom but it was just like a crazy incredible world because you know all that time in uni we had watched you know those Sound of Music's talent shows and so to be working in that environment in my early 20s while during the day the night the mornings and the evenings writing was was incredible is there anything you look back on there and go that was a lesson I learned working with them or him it's a really good question I haven't hadn't thought of it I think at the time even though it was a job I loved it was not what I wanted to do it was very much a stepping stone I mean I learned you know I was, you know, not so much with Andrew because he was off, but working with Patrick Murphy, who's head of production, and Andre Chachinsky, who was the CEO at the time, it was fascinating kind of seeing the business of production.

5:13And, you know, it seems really obvious. It goes without saying a show doesn't just happen. It doesn't just go on. But seeing the nuts and bolts behind it, how those shows are produced and the, you know, down to the budget and everything is is that was really i think invaluable and i think that's what uh you know on the shows i do now i'm i'm uh uh exec producer and so i also come at it you know creative yes but also from practical producing point of view because you can be as creative as possible but are you able to shoot it yeah well yeah have you got the

5:52Ben Hanlin: money for it how are we going to pay for it all that stuff but um fast forward a bit and then you started getting writing jobs and i'm going to paraphrase but eventually then you started writing for shows things like death in paradise eastenders and i was looking into that and i was thinking shows like that as incredible as they are because you i didn't realize this really until hearing you say it and it's obvious but writers come in and out quite a lot and i always think how how can you jump into a show and then write for it five ten fifteen episodes and then move on somewhere else how does that process work because how do you bring yourself up to speed how do you figure it all out i mean coming into uh a show like eastenders there's so you know there's 30 years of backstory and 30 years of history um that's i guess that's the job you need to you need to pick it up obviously you have script editors and um producers who who kind of guide you along the way but it's you know it is tricky so uh you know EastEnders episodes are numbered so for example my first episode was I don't know like 7 ,251 and you are you fit you know you have to know the episode that's coming before you what's coming after you what you're picking up what you're handing off and it's really really difficult um but I always say if you can survive on those shows and thrive then everything else after writing an episode of casualty for example feels if not easier um then more manageable because it is so it is so difficult to to come into those shows to write an episode that is an episode of casualty that's also your episode of casualty while at the same time dealing with literally notes from the produce you know story notes from the producer story notes from the script editor scheduling notes that was a big thing which i'll talk more about because that's really interesting scheduling notes notes from a doctor notes from a nurse notes from the paramedic so they're just pages and pages of and and to try and kind of keep your voice through all of that is very very hard scheduling was the thing that blew my mind initially um especially on a show like eastenders so for example when someone walks from outside in the Vic from the square into the Vic that's two weeks later because of how it's filmed so for those reasons you might have let's say Phil Mitchell, you can have him outside for four pages but you can't have him inside and it's a lot of maths so it's like the Queen Vic might be on stage one but the actor's not available that week on stage age one so how do you how do you like make and it's a lot of like math you can own you've got ian beal in this episode but you only have him for three pages on the lot outside but he needs to have a story with dot who's only available in studio three on week three so how do you make it work famously there was um tony jordan famous eastenders writer um he had a big storyline i think it was between pat and frank and the actors were available on different weeks one was available inside the lot one was available uh inside the studio one was available outside so he he contrived this whole story uh that they were they were having an argument and they were sending message to messages to each other and i think ricky was delivering the messages of the argument between but that was born from the fact that they couldn't be in the same room at the same time That is something that you would never, ever think of watching.

9:42No. And I think what stood me in good stead in those early days when I was kind of still learning structure and craft was I was always good at doing the voices. So I could write Dot Cotton the way Dot Cotton should sound. And so that is a huge, huge part of it. That can you write Dot the way Dot is meant to speak? Can you write Phil the way Phil speaks? and I genuinely think you can't teach that can't teach dialogue because I heard something about

10:14Ben Hanlin: this which is and I might be completely getting this wrong but as a writer the sign of a bad writer is that every character sounds the same has the same kind of rhythm or turns of phrase that kind of thing right yeah and um what's an interesting kind of um thing to do is if you have an episode of EastEnders cover the character name and can you and and can you still know who is talking just by seeing their dialogue um um uh but yeah I think that is on those shows very important to pick up you need to you need to be able to write in the voice of the characters so I tell what let's just let's dive into it then the guest right yes so let's start from the beginning where did the idea come from what do you remember how it started and let's just break it down from there yeah i mean it was it's as with all kind of tv shows well most tv shows a really long gestation period i remember we first started talking about it in 2020 during the pandemic so what was the first what was the first nugget where you went ah thriller ah this what's the i think it was the title at the time it was called the cleaner uh until the bbc came along and did a comedy called the cleaner um but it was it was just about i've you know i tend to write about in my own work the same three things in different guises thematically which is class social mobility and and sexuality and a cleaner innately is really interesting to me because they go into other people's houses who probably have more money and more means than them and they're looking around and it's like look but don't touch and that is a that's a really interesting premise to me um and you know i'm love all those kind of 90s thrillers i love a ripley-esque thriller i love someone going into another world so that's kind of where it first started kind of coming from now you've said so you mean like talented mr ripley type yes i now i can see the tiny link there now you've mentioned i wouldn't have got that before yeah yeah yeah so just like and i think in in many ways like as as i think writers do you know i have never been a cleaner i've it was spoiler alert end of episode one i've never pushed anyone down the stairs and killed anyone but i have been a working class person going into a rarefied world whether that was turning up at warwick and someone on the first day saying what are you going to do for your uh summer internship or turning up at andrew lloyd weber's company and not knowing how to pronounce the name of the champagne or whatever so all of those or how to use chopsticks and what the fuck is sushi which is in the show um so all of those elements are kind of stolen taken from my life and other another you know other bits that i've experienced and you deliberately did you deliberately set it in wales because you were like well that's another home game another thing that i know about that gives it more texture was that a deliberate thing uh it was a deliberate thing in terms of that was probably the best place to set it to get it made um and and and also probably more important i know that will very well So, you know, that that's helped.

13:49That helps.

13:50Ben Hanlin: It felt like watching it. It did feel like it was it had been a book is what it felt in a good. It was full of texture and death. And actually, one of my thoughts was, huh, I wonder why Matt. I mean, obviously, because you're a TV guy, but I was like, that could have easily have been a book as well. Right. Is that something you've thought of of going? I can move mediums here at some point. I don't know. I don't think I could ever write a book. I like genuinely, I think scripts are all about using the least amount of words possible. And novels are all about, you know, I'm going to spend two pages talking about what the desk looks like in the office.

14:27And I just don't have time for that. And I don't have that skill. But, you know, that was one of it kind of take it as a compliment that a lot of people like, is this not based on a book? Is this not because it felt kind of full and rich? but I think that's just you know working on it so much and filling it out but it's not unlike a murder mystery in the sense that it's a puzzle it's a Jenga game and if you pull one thread the whole thing might come tumbling down and you know on the guest we literally had a spreadsheet of what's happening on the page on screen and what's really happening um you know for the actors yeah yeah because everything's alive pretty much yeah you need

15:16Ben Hanlin: to know the truth and then you need to know what the camera's seeing and that they're two different things aren't they yeah and that talking about character because this is the other thing you watch in any good drama you watch the character and they're so deep with what feels like history and and like you said all everything that creates that character so if you were to take one or two are the main characters how does that process start with you do you start basing it on loads of people that you know or do you just start picking names because that is a real person by the end of that process uh russell t davis said something to me uh once that was really interesting when we were doing men up he's like every character should be you there should be an element of you in every character um and i thought that was so helpful because there's a lot of me in ria there's also a lot of me in fran um there's a lot of me in all of those men in men up even though they're completely different and you probably never know it um but we're all kind of multifaceted humans who you know have different emotions and um motivations on different days so i think trying to latch on to something in a character that you identify with is really really helpful hello it's me this is a little commercial break and for you regular listeners you'll know there's not really a commercial break because i've got no sponsors so it's just me talking to you for a few seconds uh first of all this is matthew he's great isn't he and if you want to support any of his work or see what we're actually talking about you can go to ipad go and watch men up it's a fun i think it's about a 90 minute watch so if you've got a free night go and watch that you won't be disappointed and also if you're looking for a drama go and check out the guest again it's on iplayer and if you're enjoying this episode you're probably going to like the andy nyman one from a few weeks ago where he dove into the world of acting and theater and a few other things and co-writing with derren brown that was also a really good episode there um and i suppose i've not got sponsors i might as well sponsor and promote myself shamelessly so give me 10 seconds in other words you might be wondering what do i actually do other than a podcast in case you don't know so i'll quickly explain i am a magician i used to be on the telly i don't do that as much anymore because i do i've got a young family and this works for me at the moment and i do a lot of corporates i do awards hosting conference facilitating and the main thing that i've been doing the last few years which has been really lovely is i do a keynote about human connection because as performers and as creatives actually it's not about how good the tricks are for me it's about my connection with my audience so i do a keynote about that so if you know anyone organizing a conference maybe a sales conference leadership conference human connection that's what i'd do and i also do another one on creativity which you will be shocked to learn references this podcast more information on benhanning.com and you can follow me on linkedin which is very businessy isn't it but i actually secretly love linkedin anyway uh also final thing for me thank you to everyone who's listened this far i'm getting dms of people saying they've listened to every episode you are legends uh honestly i am growing this thing from the ground up and i genuinely want this to become one of the world's biggest creativity podcasts it's a huge mission so thank you for getting on board so early um please do just give it a review on apple like five stars would be lovely or write a review.

18:44Ben Hanlin: These things really do help. Hit and subscribe really helps. And if you do one thing for me, that's it. All I'd ask is think about who would like this podcast, maybe this particular episode, open up your WhatsApp or your messenger and just send them this link. And if we can get one person each week just to listen and then it will grow like that, then it's going to be amazing. So that's my mission. And also for everyone that's been DMing me I say this every time and I actually mean it all those DMs every single one of them mean a lot and I will reply to you personally as well because um I mean maybe it says more about my ego it's nice to know that it's working and it's making a difference so thank you for all of them um don't underestimate the power of dropping somebody a message and saying loving your work keep it up it really genuinely helps maybe that's just me anyway right uh let's get back into the episode hope you're enjoying it this is what's the trick with matthew barry okay so let's get to so we've done the guest so you pitched it out obviously the bbc took it and then what do they say then do they say right there's a pot of money go and develop it or do they go nope that's a green light off those two pages you've given us there you go go and make us a big prime time series uh i wish no uh very uh so off of the two pages write the script um we so then you write the script um you know and this this is with you know this is months years uh you know the process is is is goes on for years um the only the only one that was so super super quick from pitch to green light was men up from pitch without a script to green light was eight months which is unheard of in tv so a green light i think in the old days it's like you got a green light kid go make the show that doesn't really exist anymore um so but you know there are so many layers that you go through and i always remember again russell t davis saying it shouldn't be easy it is hard and it's hard for a reason um you know there are only so many shows that get made and if you stop and think about it it's like oh my god it's terrifying i want to make a show for the bbc but so does stephen knight so does russell t davis so does sally wainwright so does all of these people and those are only the really really big names you know think of you know the hundreds of people who are sending their scripts in who have won baftas and emmys and it's just like it's about timing a bit of luck the right project the right time the right commissioner um you know it took me you know i worked for a good 10 years before getting an original yeah commission away and when you eventually got it and you knew it was happening and it was getting cast and filming did you get to a point where you're like that was the big kind of you've made it type moment in the No.

21:44No. Just worry. I mean, I always kind of joke with a friend of mine. There's nothing fun about it. I mean, it's the best job in the world. I love it. Wouldn't want to do anything else. Like, there's never been a moment that I've...

22:02I mean, actually, that's not true. There are some incredible moments, but it's always like, okay, well, okay, we've been greenlit. Okay, that's good. now we've got to worry we're gonna get the right cast got the right cast oh god um you know filming is really tricky the edit's really tricky okay now we've got it to a place where we like it okay what are the reviews going to be like what are the ratings going to be like when's it when's it going to be scheduled are they going to put it on when's it going to be

22:31Ben Hanlin: scheduled yeah we put it on at 11 o 'clock on a wednesday night and no one's going to watch that kind of stuff yeah yeah and like all of that so it's always you know it's such a a cliche that you're only as good as your last script but it's like there are a couple of moments that really stand out to me of like and i wouldn't say it's i've made it but like these are really cool moments and the first was my first eastenders because you know this was back in 2010 and eastenders has the best writing credit of any tv show in the world because it goes and then in huge letters it says written by and you know in 2010 my first episode which you know unheard of now and even back you know was I think watched by nine million people um and um and that was just you know the overnights can't remember even if there was iplayer back then um but i remember you know that was a great moment the duff duff moment um when i won the writing uh back to kymru for men up that was a good moment but there's never a moment of i've made it it's always like okay well what's coming next and and am i going to be you know such a cliche am i going to be found out is this the one where it's all going to go horribly wrong well it's that thing that i think it's that kind of industry isn't it where it's all about momentum And like you say, there's certain people in any part of the industry that you've got the momentum behind you now.

23:59Ben Hanlin: You've just had the hit. So I'd imagine how musicians feel. And now it's like, right over to you for the second trick, the tricky second album. So in a good way, you must be you must be a bit of a pat on the back from the BBC. You've delivered a brilliant thing. And in a great way, they're like, right. What else you got for us then, Matty boy, what you got? And then you're like, ah, OK, here we go. yeah and and it's so it's it's so interesting you say about timing because it is all about timing so we had the script of the guest before men up and that was all done and locked in and then the commissioner very cleverly said i know it's going to cost us six months but let's wait for men up to be on tv hope it's a great reaction and then when men up hits i'm going to put the script of the guest on the head of BBC drama's desk and says this is what's next and we were like I don't know should we just do it now should we want to wait six months it was the genius because you know it's like there's momentum everyone wants to jump on a moving train um and um yeah all about timing you know speaking of timing one of the reasons I came to America in the first place is I had a script at the BBC they had bought a script it wasn't being read um took that script to America got a lot of momentum eventually it was going to be a co-pro between the BBC and wait for it uh Harvey Weinstein uh and then a week later you know a week later all this stuff had you know um bad timing uh for the project you know for for other yeah for other reasons you know doesn't even doesn't even matter but i'm saying like so much is down to timing and stuff that is outside your control but then i would imagine knowing you it's you're right a lot of it is out but if you just keep putting out loads and loads and loads and loads loads of good work and you're a really good networker and you're in everyone's mind some point every 10 years five years the stars align and boom there we go yeah 100 percent um i think you've my dad always says probably not the right analogy uh throw enough shit at the wall something will stick um but it's true you've got to you've got to keep uh you know i probably have up to 10 projects on the go at the moment all in very various different stages you know i've got a show at hbo all six scripts are written we're just waiting for a decision i've got a pitch for a movie that we're going to take out i've just you know sold two shows to netflix but they're all in very different stages and one project might not move you know so the show show we just sold to netflix that had sat there for 18 months because we were waiting to attach a star um an actor we attached an actor went out very quickly sold it but that just that didn't do anything for 18 months and from your point from as a brit in la what's a brit writing room compared to an american writing room like well the thing i always say is with big american writing rooms it's called a writer's room but there's not a lot of writing that happens it is a lot of pitching and talking and sitting around a big table and so for example on Sabrina there were 12 10 11 12 writers so a big room and then on top of that you had the showrunner you had the writer's assistant you had the showrunner's assistant you had all the supporters so it's a big room it's a big table and on Sabrina we were at the top of the CNN tower in Hollywood with kind of literally floor to ceiling windows overlooking the Hollywood sign and Capitol Records.

27:44So it was all a bit crazy. But what I hadn't quite appreciated was the difference in... the different kind of way that you break a series in America, essentially because they have more money, they can afford to keep those 14 people in a room for three years. So, for example, on Casualty, you would have half a day to break your episode in a mini room on Sabrina you have three weeks and that oh that just comes down to money that they have the money to keep those writers there for that long um but the main thing is as I said called a writer's room not a lot of writing a lot of pitching a lot of talking and that is a completely completely different skill to writing

28:35Ben Hanlin: so god i didn't even know we'd go down this rabbit hole so imagine put me in the scene so because very almost no one has has this as a job right so yeah you're sat in this tower in la you're there writing sabrina which is i mean by the way huge you must be bucket list ticked you know you live in the dream here and we'll talk we will go back to the beginning and talk about the very beginning we're just diving in um and you're there and there's 12 of you in this room what's a day like how does it work are you just throwing things you putting things on post-its what's that process like yeah so it depends where you are in the in the kind of process of the series but for example in the early days um you would have each character on the wall so uh you know sabrina the aunts whatever and they'd be down one column and along the top you'd have your season one episodes or I think we did the first two series seasons in two blocks so I think there were like 20 episodes so characters down one side episode numbers along the top so Sabrina Ep1 for example she's going to do this in episode one she's going to do this in episode two she's going to fall out of love in episode three she's going to fight the devil in episode five so by the end of that process you look at the board and you go oh we've got something for Sabrina and all these characters in each episode so that's roughly a season and we know where we're going and what we're doing and it took me six months to come up to speed for example like if someone's got an idea that they think is brilliant they'll say this is terrible we can never do this we can never ever do this but uh and there's lots of kind of preambles is there a world in which um would it behoove us to uh and it's just it's it's it's a very very different skill and what and you're obviously we've known each of you you're a smart person what is the psychology going on in those moments then is it that people everybody wants to get their bits picked right so is that's the game is to try and convince somebody that that's the one we're going to go with right is what's what's going on there yeah i mean i guess it depends on the room uh with sabrina um you know roberto would the showrunner would be at the end of one table and you would be pitching to him and it was it's ultimately whoever's running the show it's their call what you know what they kind of move forward with but it it's a very it can be a very nerve-wracking very tense yeah uh situation uh and every room is different and you know for example i worked on industry that was a much smaller room and that was more you know making comrade showrunners uh again you know it's their show so they they call the shots and what what they want to put in the episode goes in the episodes but more of a you know because it's a smaller room a different show more of a kind of roundtable discussion yeah i was going to say 12 is a lot of people in a room yes but because sabrina's such it is a lot and it's a it is a lot in a room but sabrina's such a big show was that for example you would have at any one time you'd be breaking an episode you'd be writing an episode you'd have a writer on set you'd be editing an episode so of those 12 people you'd have one person out writing square one person on set um and it's such a machine that a show like sabrina needs a really really big writer's room and on that particular show uh we did what's called group writing so for example and again just for speed uh i remember i was you know on the credits i am the writer of episode 105 um so um we'd have 105 we'd have all of our scenes broken down into beats and i'd say ben can you write beats 5678 and get them to me in by thursday morning so on thursday morning i would have 60 scenes from all the different writers and i'd put them all together into this terrible frankenstein draft and then i'd you know you'd go through and polish and polish so actually he's coherent yeah yeah exactly but it just means for speed within 24 48 hours you have a draft of the script um yeah so one thing i want to wait is procrastination it's just dawned on me that obviously all of us procrastinate but i would imagine being a writer you are probably world class at procrastinating because if i had to write thousands of words a day or hundreds of words a day I would really struggle just to sit down and do it without going right I'm going to go and do this take the bins out how does that play into your head of when you've got a job to do and a deadline in a few days or a week can you get it done or how do you get yourself in that zone yeah I think that's where my work on the continuing dramas and soaps really came into into comes into play because if you don't deliver that draft, you will be fired.

33:50Somebody else will write it. And so I think doing those shows for so long, you get into the habit you have to deliver. There's no choice. So what I do at the beginning of every week is I have a kind of to-do list for every day, a work to-do list. So if I'm looking at today, I'm going to rework, you know, my pages for my movie. I've got to work on an outline. And for another show, I've got to do notes on another script. What I do is I go back to the beginning of the script every day. So if I'm writing, you know, a draft of the guest, I will, you know, if I was working on Act 4 the day before, the next day I will go back and start Act 1 and rewrite all the way up, all the way up, and then keep going.

34:52so actually by the time there's a first draft there's actually it's actually been 20 drafts and i think that helps you get into a groove rather than just picking up on page 37 you're like oh where am i what am i doing you're starting at page one and you know as as the days and weeks go past to get from page one to 37 it'll be much quicker because you've rewritten it 20 times um But it reminds me, have you seen that meme on social media of the horse, a drawing of the horse and the start of the horse is so perfect and brilliant and beautiful. And then it becomes like a stick figure and then it just becomes like, that's what my scripts look like.

35:34Oh, because the beginning is at 100 edits and then the last page is at one edit. yeah so you've got to like you've got to keep going and keep going until all the horse is beautiful and then you send in the script and they still say it's awful and you're able to rewrite it or whatever but going back to the beginning of the script every day is helpful

35:53Ben Hanlin: but that that technique though because i think about how would that work for every day like if you've got to do a presentation or a speech or something like that getting to the halfway through and i've got to do this but actually going on oh i'll just change this word or just changes so it's almost like you're warming up with light little edits so your brain is is kind of warming up so that when you get to the blank page you're like oh okay i'm warmed up now that's and and the my actually my biggest tip is never have a blank page so i will write the worst scene in the world like genuinely if anyone saw it i'd be fired but just to have something on the page i will put in dialogue and stuff like i don't love you i don't love you i want a divorce okay hey, call the lawyers.

36:37The worst dialogue in the world, but it's much easier to rewrite them right. So I just, you know, it's called, you know, Americans call it a vomit draft. Vomit it all out. You've got the script. You can rewrite it.

36:51Ben Hanlin: Love that. Love that. Right. We're going to start with our fast five. First question is, I'm sure you will know the film. I've asked most guests this. They don't know the film. Do you know the film Highlander, Mathieu? Anyway, Highlander's about a load of people that are immortal. But the point is, every time they cut someone's head off, they steal all of their expertise and their skills and their knowledge. So if you had the ability, they can stay alive, to steal anybody's expertise, skills and knowledge, who would it be? Oh, I think it would be Russell T. Avis. I thought you were going to say that.

37:23Ben Hanlin: Yeah. OK, move on. Second question, the time capsule question. question if you could lock the they the mythical they are putting a time capsule together this is the only thing that's going to survive in the future of your work so if you could put any single episode any single project into a time capsule and the rest will just be forgotten forever which one are you putting in there uh men up probably um it's funny i my first thought went to oh i want my first episode of eastenders because that's the what you know because of the credit is so proud of that um but i think they're not just because i think it has something important to say about and he's still on the iplayer do you know still on the iplayer yeah there we go uh if anyone hasn't seen it it's based on a true story right and it's yeah the first ever viagra trial in the world which happened amazingly in swansea in 1994 um but what it's really about is men's inability and then ability to talk to each other and mental health and all of that sort of stuff so it's like the viagra is a trojan horse uh uh into into those conversations and that i can already see the things that you said you like to play on you know whether it's sexuality or all these different things and you can see that even in that description so with that where did you just read that that happened and went ah that happened in Swansea that's interesting I'll keep that no a producer I'd worked with before sent me an email and said uh this thing happened in Swansea um do you want to make you know we want to do it we want to make a tv show and at the time when the email popped up you know kind of kind of you get a lot of it like people sending you stuff it's like i really don't have time to do this and then i looked at it and i was like how the hell do i not know this this is the full monty uh and why let's do it before someone else does it and and so i i jumped on it as quickly as possible and was shocked that it It hadn't been done before.

39:44Couldn't believe it.

39:46Ben Hanlin: And it's such a simple sell as well, isn't it? It's that top line. Get it. It sounds funny, but it also sounds different. Yeah, tick. Right. That's going in there. Next one. I am going to give you my magic wand. Only for one reason. You get to banish something from the world. Make it vanish. It could be something from TV, a genre, a type of anything that you feel if you had the power to make it vanish in tv and work related what would it be do you know i think it's those lines of dialogue that only happen in tv that annoy the hell out of me so for there are a few examples so say if you and i have an argument and then you walk out the room and i'll go ben like when does that happen in real life when doesn't your partner or whoever you're having an argument follow you um the other thing is like when someone leaves a room turns around and goes oh and ben thanks oh yeah at the breakfast table in the morning where somebody leans over grabs the toast puts it in their mouth and steals it off the plate and chomps and walks off like all the little that's my toast yeah yeah all the little things that only ever happen in television like for example um another one that annoys you uh okay great i'll see you there where are you meeting what time um can i do you know now you've got it do you know what i always thought is when they're having an argument and one person turns their back on the other person when do you ever i've never had an argument and gone i just can't look at you like they never do that okay good i like that that's very funny and my final question to conclude the episode is what is the trick so if somebody was coming up to you to say hey man i mean you've given lots of little nuggets and you've kind of painted this picture today but in general what is the trick to being a successful tv writer um i would say it is kind of relentless hard work and as cliche you know people always are how do you how do you write a script and it's like one word at a time it's really hard you're not going down a mind but writing is hard and it's just you've got to go through it you've got to you've got to write one word at a time great thank you thank you very much great cheers matthew thank you that was it for another episode of what's the trick hope you liked it as always We release an episode every single Friday.

42:29Ben Hanlin: If you've enjoyed this, go back, listen to people like Andy Nyman, Matthew Edmondson. We've had loads of great episodes and we've got some really good ones coming up as well. So make sure you subscribe so you don't miss them. And as I said, if there's anybody you know that you think's into TV, film, writing, anything creative that might like this, drop them that message. Send them this link. See if we can spread the word. Thanks for the DMs and I'll see you next week. Thank you.

42:57Thank you.