Nadia Casey: How we can all be funnier in real life…

0:00You take that idea and you go, OK, what is the funniest way to say that? I think life only gets richer when we can laugh and make each other laugh and be silly together.

0:10Ben Hanlin: Welcome back to What's the Trick? I am your host, Ben Hanlin, and this is the podcast where I sit down with the world's most creative people and try and understand their creative process. And today's guest is Nadia Casey, who is a comedy coach, but not for comedians, for normal, everyday people. the goal of this episode is to make us lot you the listener me normal people funnier in our everyday lives so if you listen to this you know you're going to be funnier in about an hour from now so and i've met you you're not that funny in real life way anyway right um a bit of information about nadia that you need to know she started her career as a google intern and when she was in san francisco she really loved comedy she found an improv group and started doing improv comedy moved to new york with google and pursued comedy again again more improv and then from there she's built her career from writing doing comedy writing helping other comedians and then more recently fast forward she's been an absolute student of comedy studied it like a science and she started an Instagram channel which is No More Funny Business and she's unpacking the science behind comedy and why and how certain things work and how we can apply that to our everyday lives to be funnier people and now she coaches people to do that.

1:34Ben Hanlin: So why did I want to sit down with her? Because I wanted to create this masterclass right now of understanding is comedy a talent that we're born with or is it a skill that we can learn? Because we've heard from a lot of comedians on this pod before and their writing process but i want to understand how could we learn how to be funnier in everyday conversations is it possible and is it simple so that's what we do she tells us um what i was going to tell you we recorded this remotely i was in my home in birmingham she was in her home in philadelphia and we have a great chat and like i say it's a masterclass in how to be funnier so enjoy this everybody this is what's the trick with nadia casey so my first question to you nadia can anyone be funny it's a great question what a place to start i think anyone can be way funnier than they are right now okay and that should feel like super liberating i think if the question is can anyone have like a netflix special uh you know probably not i don't think so i don't think i could have one right now anyways you know the way that i think about um how how like learning how humor works and learning how comedy works it's the same as learning to get better at basketball it's like i ben i don't know how tall you are as you are seated but i'm gonna go on a limb and say you're not gonna make it in the nba no okay good but so okay right so it's like you unfortunately you are not gonna play in the nba however if you like joined a basketball like team right and for the next year you just got better and better at basketball now you can play whenever if there's a pickup game with your friends if your kids want to go play basketball and go like can you come join us you're like good you someone throws you the ball you can have fun with it you know what you're doing that's how i think of humor you think people can go from not being a funny person to being competently amusing yes i think that here's maybe the um the real way to say it if you are not an interesting person, if you are indifferent, if you have no preferences, if you're like down for whatever, always like every aspect of your life is whatever, then no, I don't think you can be funny.

3:54But if you go, if you are like observant and you're interesting and you have something to say, then yes, I can teach you how to take those things and make them funny or make them a funnier version. Or if someone else is starting a bit or doing banter with you, I can teach you how to play because there's rules to how it works.

4:11Ben Hanlin: so yes yes and we're going to dive into some of these rules and games and how we do we're going to do that later on but let's go into uh what makes something funny are we able to quickly or not quickly however long you want look at the science behind comedy and a joke just so we can understand the core of it first of all yes for sure and what i'll say is like um it's like a little depressing to be like comedy is a science or a math but it like kind of is and it's helpful to think of it that way because then you can learn it then it's like um i think of uh alex formosey he he made this video on charisma one time where he was like if you are if you want to be more charismatic some people go oh i'm not like i wasn't born that way and he's like no charisma is a set of skills and you can learn to nod when someone talks you can learn to hold eye contact You can learn to ask a follow-up question.

5:06You can learn to smile a little more. And all of these skills together makes you feel charismatic. And being funny or humor, it's like super similar logic-wise. If you can understand the different pieces that go into it, and you can understand how to frame things in a certain way and how to play, then you can be funnier because it's a bunch of tiny micro skills.

5:28Ben Hanlin: So interestingly, just a bit of background on what I do. So outside of being a magician, I did keynotes about communication. Because fundamentally, whether you're a comedian or a magician, I'm communicating to strangers. That's what I'm doing. And I say exactly the same thing. We can all be amazing at communicating or get better because communication is a skill. And the way I try and break it down into any of this is it's a mindset. And then there are frameworks and then there are tools. And if you have the right mindsets, if you have the right frameworks and if you have the right tools, put all them together and practice.

6:00Ben Hanlin: Everyone can be better at communicating with strangers. it's so similar that's how i teach it too so i have like um i i i'm gonna give you like a tiny bit of backstory so it makes a little bit more sense um just like how i how i got here basically i've always been i've always loved comedy and i've always been silly but there's no outlet for the average person who's like i just want to be funny i don't want to be a comedian i have no intention of overcoming my fear of public speaking i would just love to be a funnier person at work or with my family or with my children or and I was like there's no avenue so I put together this this blueprint gosh this is like the longest way around your question but I put together a blueprint that is very similar to your communication one where there is a three-part blueprint to how you make something funny there is the seed the subtext the core idea that you want to communicate in a funny way this is not necessarily funny this is just what we're actually good this is what we're gonna to make funny this is what's worth talking about then you take that um and we can we can drill down a little bit but you take that idea and you go okay what is the funniest way to say this that's when it opens up to different what i call funny frames there's different people have different names for this irony is a particular way of being funny comedic metaphors is a particular way of being funny character is a particular way you can be funny um what else do we have we have uh like madcap absurdist energy that's a particular shock humor so there's all of these options that you can filter your idea through if this makes sense and you can stack them together once you know what they are you can go oh you know what's so funny an ironic character that's like arrested development like characters like um lucille bluth and where they say one thing and then they immediately undercut themselves that's an ironic character or you could say you know so so you start to do that and then the bottom the bottom piece how i see it are like the levers of how you can make it funnier you can heighten it you can keep a bit going you can lean into more silliness you can become um you can rest the game there's like different tools you have access to there's structural things you can put the joke here instead of here it'll be funnier the third bit is more like your little tools and tactics when you're saying doing the thing right but but just heard what you said there it's me and you were in the room and i noticed something that i think everyone else is noticing so that's my core deed and then i go right everybody else has noticed that that um that vase has fallen over or there's a chip in the table or whatever the thing is then i go yeah how do i want instead of going hey look there's a thing there that we've all seen you then go ah totally and so you're saying if there's a thing everyone noticed which is a good um uh you know you asked me originally are there like parts of humor that matter and i have a thing called the the first principles of humor which is three things that every funny thing has one is relevance which is kind of what you're saying if i make a joke and it's not relevant to you in any way like either you don't get it or you're not noticing what i'm noticing or you it's a joke for me but you're saying it to a bunch of really old people and so like it's i would get it but the oldies won't so it's like it has to be relevant to who you're talking to which um if you're with your friends and family usually that's like a given it's like not a big deal but if you're like you do you're speaking in front of different people or you are um you're talking to a stranger or whatever it is you want to be thoughtful who am i talking to and will they think this is funny yes at the end of the day you want to connect through a laugh and if they're not going to laugh then it's not going to work the other the second thing is surprise just objectively if you want to make me laugh i have to be surprised now surprise can be i didn't expect you to say that surprise can be you took you took a joke we were doing and you heightened it in a way that's like oh good one I wasn't thinking that well no I was going to say so where magic and comedy massively overlap is they both work and on the element of surprise so if I yes if I say to you uh you pick a card and it's going to end up under your foot and it does you go okay that's okay because you told me that was going to happen but if I don't tell you it's going to end up under your foot then it blows your mind because you had no idea it was going that way it's that element if the audience gets ending before i get there then there's no surprise so that's why comedy and magic have the same uh super similar yeah yeah we just have a different goal at the end i want them to laugh and and you want them to go whoa and that's the only difference so we have a different kind of but the surprise has to be there for both totally you know the an example i think is interesting and you have kids and I don't have kids but I used to be a really good babysitter one one thing that I used to do um or that I used to enjoy rather is I would have like a little maybe like a four or five year old and they would do something genuinely funny like kids are funny they do something genuinely funny I would laugh and then they would notice I laugh and they would want to make me laugh again which is like a very human thing and they would do exactly what they did the first time you know if they fell over or they're being silly like almost like verbatim exactly and it's just not funny the second time and it's worth reflecting on because nothing changed but the surprise is gone and so even on a really basic level like that it always you have to be one step ahead and kids don't really get that until their their brain develops a bit more so they don't know that if you do it like verbatim it's not going to work so okay so we have relevance the people are going to get it surprise on some level you are keeping you are ahead of me that is an originality of thought and delivery and whatever but it's remained surprising and then the third piece is subtext this is kind of what we were talking about before but the subtext of a joke is the core message you're communicating through the joke the subtext is not really meant to be said out loud that's not the point we laugh when i understand what you're trying to say through the joke that's like when the laughter happens we're supposed to be saying something so like you were saying before there's a chip on the table like that's random that's that's okay that the thing is random if we're what we're saying through our joke is commenting on like that's why did someone leave that there why is that happening like what we're making we're making a point we're trying to say something and we can say in a funny way we can say oh i love when there's just one chip on the table it's so nice they really thought about our experience you know you could be ironic you could lean into a vibe like that so if i try and think of this as a universal thing something i find it gets an easy laugh if there's a big tv show and there's a really big thing on netflix and there's a certain character that says a certain phrase and i randomly drop it amongst my friends and they laugh because they connect oh that's the phrase from the tv show the subtext is oh he likes the same tv shows that i do so we're connecting because we we then both like the same thing does am i am i right here or not possibly kind of when i'm talking about subtext in comedy if you watch stand-up it's like a good way to do it because it's just so clear every joke if you go what is this joke about what started this oh he noticed that his kids are so creative and he's not and that's weird that like kids are so creative and he's not it doesn't have to be like life-saving or you know um like the smartest thing in the world it just to make the point that something is always the core and the more observational or thoughtful or curious you can be the easier it is to find something to make funny or to get a bit going or to think of other things to keep bantering with your friends so your starting point if you're somebody here that wants to naturally be a bit funnier is first of all just be observational look around the room just be curious as to serious what are the people in the room feeling how am i feeling about like what is going on and then if you're noticing it you're going then there's some commonality with all of us right now i can start there type thing yeah you know yeah very much so the way i think about it is like all day long we are observing things and because it's not polite a lot of the time to acknowledge it or point to it or that's weird or that's strange or i don't like that or it shouldn't be like that that's it's just not polite.

14:16It's kind of worked out of us. We just kind of like go along in a very polite, societal, agreeable way. But it's not very funny to be agreeable. It's more interesting to be like, what do I think about that? So first you notice something and then you go, what is this making me think or feel? It shouldn't be like that. That's weird. I don't. OK. Oh, I feel awkward. I shouldn't have said that. Like it could be anything, but you just are reflective. Or yes, everyone in the room is feeling weird right now. Or I think everyone noticed what I just said it could be any version of that and then you can kind of keep drilling down and obviously this sounds like a lot of steps but our brains move so fast I was with my dad um at like this this like a outdoor bar space a few weeks ago and they had a singer there which was cool and the singer was clearing his throat I think he was coughing but he was clearing his throat and my dad thought it was funny how he was clearing his throat so he noticed the singer cleared his throat he had the thought that was a weird way to do it is that always how he does it and then and my dad's a silly guy then we started doing more and more dramatic versions of the way he cleared his throat just my father and i we weren't doing it too loud to disrupt the song but it was just like it just and that's a very silly bit but it starts with an observation then you go what am i finding interesting odd off about it that's a weird way to do it it'd be funny if he always does it that way and you can just and now it's a very silly bit with your dad or with whoever but that's usually how it starts something happened and i took note and then you get clear what do i think about that what's my opinion my preference if you think of like larry david from like curb your enthusiasm that's his whole thing what

15:55Ben Hanlin: no i don't like that i don't think i should have to wait you don't eat my food you're in my house it's just opinions opinions someone eats his food what's his next thought and larry's very opinion and he's a character right but it's like that's the extreme version something happened he has an immediate thought preference opinion about it and because it's his character he states it but we all have that we just quiet it because it's not acceptable so that's already interesting now let's try if we can i know this is a bit of like a lesson i'm putting you on the spot let's try and apply this somebody might be listening going well how do i actually do this so i'm going to start with not the social setting because i think a lot of people always get told at work if you're going to do a presentation or you're going to stand on stage in front of an audience start with a joke right people say start with a joke but that's quite hard how are you able to answer the question how could somebody walk out in front of a presentation or in front of 100 people at work and make them laugh or be funnier is that achievable i think it is first just write the thing write it well make sure you say what you want to say it's clear always start with clarity.

17:01Now when we go back, now we're going to say, where can I add jokes? Where can I add jokes can be, is there an obvious place standing out to me? Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not, but that's like a good question to go in. You want to ask yourself, am I having an opinion about any of these things? Is a thought coming up? Am I having an observation about a line? Notice what you're thinking, because if you're thinking it, they might be thinking it too. If you go, this sounds kind of cliche. These are so boring. Then if you're already thinking that about your own thing if it's work it depends what you do but it's possible the audience is thinking it too so sometimes just going is anything occurring to me and being again aware of that and then seeing if anything funny comes from that the other way to do it oh yeah go ahead no no so i just i'm just

17:43Ben Hanlin: thinking i hear sometimes corporate presentations and maybe that this sounds really dull but it happens a lot is maybe they're talking about something where they've implemented a new process but it's taken much longer than everyone anticipated right so it's taken really long time this year to implement this thing so the easy the obvious joke there would be oh and this year we did so and so which as we all know we implemented really quickly etc yes that's perfect and what is that that is that's perfect irony um irony is one of like the things i go to the most when you're being ironic you are it's kind of like sarcasm except whereas you're saying the opposite of what is true so the truth is it took forever because the context of reality is like we all know this has taken so long the context is already apparent so if you want to make get a laugh off of something it's like me wearing bright pink and being like um i usually like as you can tell i like to dress in very earthy colors like if i was wearing like a hot pink shirt it's like it's like the context is clear so if i say the opposite the joke is obvious so that's a great example if this took way longer than usual you can go like and i think we were all shocked just how quickly we got this done you know or you could you could find a way to say the opposite and you want to deliver it this is important because if you don't deliver it well you're not going to get a laugh you deliver it like it's the absolute truth if you deliver it sarcastically which is kind of like a little bratty teenager being like and we got it done so fast like that's not funny That's being sarcastic.

19:15That's sounding like, no, we didn't. You know, that kind of a tone. You want to go and we got it done in record time. And I think we should all be very proud of just how fast we're known for our speed. You can you can keep heightening how you talk about it. So, yeah, irony is a great one. The other thing to do is this is a really common way that we just all talk is we like list stuff all the time. anytime you have three or more things in a list, especially if the list is kind of redundant, smart, hardworking, you give it your all. It's like they're all kind of the same thing. Who cares? You can make the third one the joke, like smart, hardworking, and everyone seems to log off early on Fridays, you know, where you can you can find a way to make the third one something that is still true within those things.

20:02Like if we're talking, we're describing who's year for example you still want it to be a description that's accurate but the third one should be different should be the joke line should be something unexpected when you talk about

20:13Ben Hanlin: surprise so also you're conditioning them up for a rhythm which they think they know the end of so oh he's done this he's done this and your brain's going okay he's gonna list a third thing and then you completely surprise them because they thought they already knew what the word was you were gonna say pretty much as soon as you say two things you create a pattern by default and our brain is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know where you're going with that. And just by that kind of automatic thinking that we all do, it's a really easy opportunity to say something funny and surprising and accurate instead.

20:48If you say you guys are smart, hardworking, and you're all dogs, it's like, what? It's surprising, but it's random. You still want it to follow the logic of whatever you were saying, whatever the setup was, but make it something that they didn't expect, something that's true but wasn't exactly where they thought you were going and you'll probably

21:06Ben Hanlin: get a laugh so tell you what i cut you off you said so you start you you look at the script you punch it up you look for the areas that look like they're standing out to you that you clearly have an opinion on you clearly have a feeling about and try and play with those maybe the thing i should have started with is just have fun with it when you're trying to come up with funny things to say do not edit yourself because it's a totally different part of your brain and if you're editing while you're trying to be funny, you literally will get nowhere. Look at what you look at what comes up organically and be honest and speak to that.

21:37Look structurally. Is there a place where you're setting up a pattern or an expectation? Like we're saying rule of threes. And then the other thing I was going to say, the last thing, if you can make something more specific, it will be funnier. So if you notice that you write generic details, see if there's one that you can make hyper specific. If you can, if you talk about like, we all come to the office, we clock in, we sit down, we start working. I don't know. Those are all pretty generic. Those are fun. If you can be like, what's a very specific thing we all do? You know, we all put our bag down and then to pretend we were there earlier and then we go and get coffee or I don't know, you know, these are off the dome.

22:19These aren't going to be the sharpest, but something like that. If you can say, you know what, this one is really generic. What are like 10 specific 20 specifics that fit within this category things I do when I get to the office and by like that the the first five or ten they're going to be basic but you just keep pushing your brain if it feels hard that's like correct that's kind of how you think through it you just keep pushing you what's another thing what's another thing and then you'll go oh that's funny I haven't I would not have thought of that if I didn't keep pushing but that's funny hello it's Ben it's a short commercial

22:48Ben Hanlin: break or for regular listeners you know it's not a proper commercial break because I haven't gotten sponsors but oh i have a huge huge announcement to tell you that's coming up on the pod but i'm gonna leave you with that for a moment because let's talk about nadia for a second uh she's great it's amazing how she's made this career out of teaching regular people how to be funnier and if you want to go and see some of her scientific ways she deconstructs comedy have a look on her instagram no more funny business uh no dot there are four stops in between each word so no dot more dot funny dot business right and she teaches you that and she's also got live 90 minute workshops and other classes and courses that you can get involved in and she's got them up as also on stand dot store slash no more funny business so anyway even if you just enjoy this conversation give it a like she's a lovely person she'd probably appreciate a little dm on instagram that might make her day and uh also what have i got to tell you i'm going to tell you about this guest thing about the pod but in the vein of because i've got no sponsors i thought i'd sponsor myself some of you especially if you're new listeners you might think what does ben actually do day to day well i do corporate work but you know i've done i've got i think i've lost the plot this week i thought you know this is a comedy related episode one of my comedy heroes is jerry seinfeld so i asked claude to come up with a way of pitching my services as an advert in the theme of seinfeld and you can hear it here i've printed it out i haven't edited this this is straight from Claude.

24:14Ben Hanlin: This is me, what I do as Jerry Seinfeld. Ready? Here we go. Ready for the advert. It is this. So here's something I never understood about corporate conferences. You spend six months planning the venue, the catering, the breakout sessions, the branded lanyards. God forbid you forget the lanyards. And then the keynote speaker walks out and just talks at people for 45 minutes while everyone checks their phone under the table. What is that? what are we doing here i'm ben hamlin i'm a magician a performer and apparently now someone who tells sales teams how to be more interesting which let's be honest they need my keynote is called human connection is your competitive advantage and the whole point is this is this 90 of everything we say or do will be forgotten by thursday so maybe just maybe we should start focusing on how we make people feel rather than how many slides we can fit into a deck radical concept i know more information can be found on benhanning.com no lanyards required there you go that was all right wasn't it so that's what i've been doing you might be thinking what is he lost i talked that through with brianie a minute ago my wife she's never really seen seinfeld she was like no idea what you're talking about anyway uh let's get back to the pod i say i've got a big announcement i have i have got coming up and i'm recording it this week my biggest guest ever and And it's the guest that when I thought about doing this pod, I wrote in my head a bit of a top 10 dream list.

25:40Ben Hanlin: They're on the dream list. So if somebody knows me and what I do and what I love, you might be able to guess it. But it's definitely basically what I'm trying to say is hit subscribe. So you don't miss what's coming up in the next few weeks. It's going to be I'm very excited by it. As I say, hit subscribe and you won't miss what's coming up next week. and also the only other thing i'll ask is if you are enjoying these pods or if you're liking this and you haven't done so yet drop me a dm on instagram because it's nice to hear from you and i do respond to every single one and if you've got a friend that you think might enjoy this please give them a little message and say hey i've been listening to this podcast i think you might like it and if we can spread the word that way and if if you're somebody who's good on social media and you could make a little insta story and share it on there even better but hey oh just trying to spread the word and build this thing one listener at a time so thank you for being involved in this little community i've rambled enough let's get back into this it is what's the trick with nadia casey so you've talked a bit about in a work saying presentation let's change the setting and see if this changes how we would think about it because i'm sure it would imagine if this is now socially so you're thrown into a room full of strangers it's either at work and you're networking or you're at a party and you just want to be naturally a bit more funnier okay so what i'll say is i made a i made a video on instagram about doing bits and the haters came for me being like people who do bits all the time are so annoying and it's like yeah duh don't do bits all the time you want to be like a normal human can you explain to a british especially a british listener what a bit is just so we can i know you've kind of half explained it before This is a good question.

27:25I think it's just what you all think of as banter, but it's when you can keep it going. So it's not just a line here or there. It's like you can keep the game. You can keep pitching and heightening to keep the joke going. so an example I have is like um um if you you know I feel like when I was younger going to parties was great and then you get older and it's like oh this is exhausting this can be a lot you know and so if you go to a party and you see someone standing alone for me let's say it's a party or networking event whatever it doesn't matter but you see the whole point is to be there to be social to be chatty if you see someone by themselves what's the observation right immediately I'm like, you're not, you know, I relate to them and we don't come to parties to be alone.

28:08So there's already something kind of unusual that has occurred to me. If I go up to them and I go, oh, I love being antisocial at a party. I come here for the solitude. That's I'm initiating a bit. I'm being ironic because it's the opposite. It's true. We come here to be social. We come here to talk to people. So it's funny to lean in and 100 % pretend that I feel we come here for the solitude. Now, this gives the other person the ability to play. I'm initiating a funny way to us for us to talk about something or to kind of be playful around a topic. I could also just go up to them and say, like, hey, I noticed you were alone.

28:45Hi, I'm Nadia. Nice to meet you. But that's not funny. That's just like normal behavior. So it's just another way to be to be like, let's make this fun instead of just regular is kind of like the pitch. The rule is we're pretending we're here on purpose to be antisocial. the way that you keep a game going it has to be surprising right like if you just say back to me yeah i come to parties to be anti-social it's like oof i just said that so now it's actually not funny but if you want to be funny you go okay how can i take this idea the game the way i would describe this game is we're pretending that what i'm doing is normal being anti-social at a party how can i say i did it um what's another aspect of being at a party oh getting dressed up you do your makeup you do your hair whatever right that's a normal part of a party so what if you do a normal thing that you do at a party but you match it with but i want to be alone because that's the game we're at a party but i want to be alone that's kind of how we're playing what is funny about this um so what i i might so if someone said to me like oh i love i love coming to parties for the solitude i could say okay oh yeah me too i like i spent hours doing my hair and makeup and i think I'm going to go sit in that room by myself.

29:57And it's like, oh, that sounds amazing. I think, you know, all my friends just got here. I think I'm going to call an Uber and I'm ready to go. So you can keep the idea of like, right, came to a party for the reason of being alone. What else do we do at parties? We get dressed up, we talk, we dance, we see our friends. And then how do we be alone? And that's how we make the joke.

30:20Ben Hanlin: So this idea of essentially you call it bits, but I guess we kind of call it playing, just playing with strangers and just playing with conversation rather than having to have proper conversation. I'm going to just be not critical here at all, but somebody might be going, well, why? Why do we? But that's silly. Why don't we talk about what's hello? Nice to me. Is it because I'm going to because by doing that, it built it can when it gets it right. You build so much rapport and connection with that person quickly rather than going through the night and just being pleasant. it's like an actual connection and you're both having fun straight away is that the goal of this really i to me i think life only gets richer when we can be have like we can laugh and make each other laugh and be silly together because like we're all gonna die you know it's like the sad truth and so it's like we might as well remember that when we're having very serious very polite conversations yeah i also think the way when you get good at it and it's really just pattern recognition it's like you learn step one step two and step three and you have to learn it because they are individual muscles you have to understand how the rules work but once you learn it then it's like oh we're talking you misspoke i go uh what was that that was do you need a glass of water you feeling a little nervous like i can play with you i can be silly with you i can tease you like to me teasing that is funny not cruel yes it's like the most profound expression of love i've been with my wife 20 years and every time she mispronounces a word I pick her up on it and it's as you should I'm getting a minute or two out of that I need a vice versa she's like great did you just say canopy when you meant canopy whatever whatever it is yeah he's going in hard on me on that that's fine and I and I think that's like the point so uh let's talk about when because British people love to to dwell on some negativity what happens you walk up to a party and you crack your hilarious line and you get nothing it's empty i'm gonna ask you what would you observe in that moment if if i said like what occurs to you that this me and this person maybe aren't seeing things slightly differently maybe they are a bit more serious than i am i would probably default to brushing it under the carpet and defaulting to hello nice to meet you i'm ben and just pretend And it never happened.

32:39Sure. Yeah, that's right. Okay. So if I, one thing that I think is so fun about like having a sense of humor is like the way that you handle something and the way I handle it is unique to each of us. And there's nothing wrong. It's just like whatever that is for you. So for you, it could be like if you try to make a joke and they don't, either they don't get it, they didn't realize you were joking or just bombs. They don't think it's funny. You can go, huh, I guess we have different sense of humor. Hmm. Yeah. Okay. uh you want to just do it regular hi i'm ben like you could just you can still say it for me i think you know that they're super cliche stand up is like oh like tough crowd yeah you know that's like a always been a response but it is this thing of like i have to acknowledge it because now it's in there we're all thinking that didn't work or i could you could say like um oh i didn't know you were hard of hearing and then like i'm not it's like oh that's weird you didn't laugh at my joke at all you know you could it depends on the thing and with you but you can find a way to just

33:38Ben Hanlin: acknowledge it well somebody here might be listening to this and go do you know what i've got this big presentation at work next week they're looking at their script okay throw a gag in and they stand there a week from now and they go nadia's told me to this is going to be funny irony and they say it and 200 people stare back at them how how do you deal with that kind of joke not landing okay this is a great uh difference if you are in your life just trying to be funny with friends and stuff you're gonna bomb sometimes sometimes it's gonna work so who cares those are your people if you are doing something on the stage there's really not it's not a big deal and and also like i bomb all the time it's okay with friends with my husband honestly with him way too much he should be laughing way more feel quite strongly that if there are stakes to the joke if you're on a stage if this is for your work if um it's a client you're pitching to a client or it's like a presentation something like that you should get feedback before you do the joke and you don't have to get feedback from a bunch of people go ask your wife hey do you think this is fun this makes sense i'm just gonna read out loud tell me if this makes sense you know snl in in the u.s and i actually have one in the uk now which i haven't seen it but it's supposed to be good um they do a rehearsal and then they do the show so the one that goes live at 11 30 that's the show but they did a whole rehearsal of every sketch before that went live and the rule seems to be we think this sketch is so funny we laughed at table read when we read it we think it's hilarious let's perform it if the audience doesn't laugh it gets cut because if they don't think it's funny it's not funny and i agree this as well actually if you've got like smaller meetings or smaller groups leading up to the big thing try the same bits in those bits just like versions of and also what you said about running it past a partner or someone i do that to my wife sometimes and she'll see something in the joke that i won't and she'll go oh no you can't say that because people might interpret it as this that you're being mean about which is they see things from a completely different angle that the intention was and oh gosh i'm glad that's been flagged so i think that's quite interesting totally totally and you know you know it's also maybe a good time to bring that up is like when we're being funny really our goal is like to get a laugh to say something and to connect.

35:52Like that's kind of like the trifecta. That's like what we're hoping to do. If you get a laugh, but you're not saying anything and you're not connecting with anyone, it's like, I don't know if that's really that valuable. And the same thing if you're connecting and you're saying something, but no one's laughing. Okay, well, that didn't really work either. So we want all three. And if we are saying something that is interpreted, like maybe it offends people or it crossed the line, but you weren't thinking that, it does kind of backfire. And so I have a like a gut check checklist is kind of how I describe it.

36:24When you are going to tell a joke or especially if it's like professional or you're on a stage and you don't know everyone there.

36:31Ben Hanlin: Yeah. Of things to think about before you say it. And it's just five things. The first thing is check your subtext. We've talked a lot about like what am I actually saying? if you watch like roast comics like they do a lot of like roasts in the u.s where they're basically doing mean jokes at whoever the roast is for sometimes they're really funny and they're good jokes and but a lot of the time the joke is like just like kind of mean or insulting and if you go what's the subtext what were they trying to say there's either nothing there or it was just kind of like a like a racist dumb thing to say yeah there's no point to it so you always want to say what is my subtext what am i trying to say and is my joke saying that because sometimes you think it is and you go actually kind of like your wife it sounds like you're actually saying this and go no no that's not what i want to say i'm trying to say this thing oh then we should tweak this word or we should change the delivery or something yes what is my subject and is my joke saying that um another one is making sure you're not punching down and comedy status matters a lot and if you are making fun of someone who is perceived as lower status than you that can be economic that could be race that could be minorities that could be someone who's down on their luck and you're thriving you know yeah if i make fun of jeff bezos no problem if it's a good joke we're all gonna laugh no one's gonna feel bad if jeff bezos makes fun of the people that like rely on him for money even if it's a good joke it won't get a laugh because it feels mean it feels like a middle school bully so you always wanted to kind of like check yourself am i punching down or is it okay similar to that is how how what's your distance from the joke if i'm making a ton of jokes about people who are adopted um that could feel weird but if i go oh i'm adopted then all of a sudden you guys all everyone takes a sigh of relief and it's like oh okay you're close enough to this i don't feel bad laughing at your ideas if you're adopted you got to tell them or no one's gonna know you know what i mean in that kind of respect um and then i'm missing one for sure but the last one the last one is like are you laughing did you think it was funny and that one matters a ton because accidents happen jokes bomb miscommunications but if you thought the joke was funny and you you're like amused by it and you're like I honestly thought you guys were gonna laugh too but you didn't that um that intention goes a such a long way from people being offended to being like uh assuming something about you that is not true so like when in doubt if you make a joke and it bombs you're allowed to laugh after you're allowed to be like oh okay I thought this was funny okay I will move on you know you can acknowledge it you can yeah have fun with the delivery but what that also means is just make sure that if you're telling a joke that you think it's funny don't tell it to get a laugh from someone else if you don't agree with the joke and find it funny on your own because it won't always go as well so those are four there's a fifth one but can't remember it uh are you ready for my fast five nadia i am a little nervous go ahead i'm gonna start with a version of this question but i think it might be a different answer uh the highlander question are you familiar with the film highlander is the film where the they're immortal and they chop the heads off other immortals and in doing so they steal the skills and expertise of these people so you can steal the skills and expertise of anyone dead or alive who would it be i will go back to hacks and i will say their ability the show hacks to tell a hilarious interesting thoughtful story and um there what i would say is the ability to say this is like a beautiful dynamic of characters it's like one of the funniest shows i've ever seen like easily top five and i'm a hard critic second question if you could keep one thing you've ever created whether it's a sketch a skit a video an idea whatever you want goes in a time capsule the rest of your work is evaporated what you're sticking in there in the u.s there's a satirical publication website called mcsweeney's it's super funny it's very hard to get in and for years it was like it was like this is the dream to get something published in there.

40:48And my writing partner, who's also my husband, we were trying and trying and we'd have these like very dramatic fails. And at the time, this was the first this was Joe Biden running the first time. And he kept saying his his vice president was going to be a woman. But he wouldn't say who it kind of felt like the trope when a middle schooler is like, I have a girlfriend, but she doesn't go to this school or I have a girlfriend, but she lives in Canada and he doesn't have a girlfriend. That's the joke. And it was feeling like that. And so we were like that's a great metaphor let's write that and we got it in and it was cool to do it like we had failed for so long and we had a big win together which was cool and then that became one of the top red articles of the year which is like a big deal because i post new ones every

41:26Ben Hanlin: single day but it was a huge win at the time yeah in the capsule right culture vulture you've already mentioned hacks but what is the one thing lately that you've read listened to seen heard that you'd love to share about i'm obsessed with taskmaster that's become like my uh feel good a stressful day let's put on taskmaster show so you're watching english comedians and english cast that you have no idea who they are right yeah yeah it's super funny the only thing i'll say just to use your english platform i noticed that they had an american on the show he's a man and They had another American on the show.

42:07He's a man. No women, so.

42:11Ben Hanlin: If this was your route to Taskmaster, you've just wasted an hour of your life, to be honest. You ain't getting that hour. I thought this was going to pay off. I got to go then. Everyone in England knows each other. Yeah, I don't know them, so fine. That's the only reason I agreed to do this. Anyway, I'm going to hand you my magic wand. With this magic wand, you have the power to make anything in comedy vanished it can be anything that annoys you around the comedy space what would it be okay i think we are living in a time when people have the feeling of like i you can't say anything anymore and i would like to use this this power bestowed upon me with my wand to prevent people from making jokes who have nothing to say because all of the fear and the offensiveness honestly that like comes out in comedy it's people who are being sloppy who are like they're like i think this is funny or this is like edgy or a shock but they don't have anything to say if you're you're taking up space and you're speaking to an audience and you want you want to make them laugh you should say something and make it really freaking funny that's what i think and the final question we end all the the episodes on this question what is the trick to people having a funnier life

43:38okay you know what i'm gonna say something i haven't said there there is like all the stuff we talked about the way to look at something the frames that you can look at the thing through and find there's ways to heighten the joke and stuff yeah but we didn't talk about like personality traits. And I think like playfulness and silliness, if you do nothing else will add so much joy to your life and humor and laughs. If you make an intentional choice, I'm going to this party, I'm going to give my speech, I'm going to go to a networking event, I'm going to be playful and I'm going to be easygoing.

44:12I'm not going to be so serious. I'm going to look for reasons to have fun. You will laugh and make other people laugh way more than you thought just by kind of like opening that valve in your mind. And I think when you're learning to be funny, that's a huge part of it. And we don't really talk about that. So there you go. Great.

44:28Ben Hanlin: Thank you very much. What a lovely way to end. Thank you, Nadia. Yeah, you're welcome. This is so fun. So there you go. There's another episode of What's the Trick? That was Nadia Casey. You can go give her a follow at NoMoreFunnyBusiness on social media and go and see all some of the amazing work she's doing there. And on reflection, listening back to that, one little thing I thought about. What is lovely about her entire ethos is going into situations that sometimes we find stressful or we put loads of pressure on ourselves and we go, oh my gosh, it's a big work event or it's a big social event.

44:59Ben Hanlin: I don't know anyone. And instead of putting pressure on yourself, almost giving yourself permission to play. And I think that's quite a nice ethos. God, I think about how amazing would it be if every time you walked into a room this week, you reminded yourself to just go and play and have fun. So it starts there and all the other techniques spring from that. But that's something I'm take it from that i'm like you know what ben just bloody play sometimes and don't take it all so serious so there we go uh also reminder big guest or hall i wonder if you can guess it you might be able to dm me and guess it possibly hit subscribe so you don't miss who's coming up in the next few weeks and as always absolutely love if you let me know what you think of this episode you can dm me and share it with somebody that you think likes comedy etc etc anyway enjoy the rest of your week i'll see you all next friday for another episode of what's the trick Thank you.