The Speech Expert: The Psychology of Powerful Speakers: Boris, Trump & Arnie | Simon Lancaster

0:00You can't argue that Boris Johnson is the most important communicator of our times. It's fair to say that Brexit would not have happened were it not for that one guy deciding to campaign for Brexit.

0:13Ben Hanlin: Welcome back to What's the Trick? I am your host Ben Hanlin and this is the podcast where I sit down with the world's most creative people and try and understand their creative process. And today's guest is professional speech writer Simon Lancaster. So Simon used to be a speechwriter for the government under the Tony Blair era when they were in power. And since then, he's left the government and his full time job is to write speeches for some of the biggest CEOs in the world. They bring him in. He works with them one on one and he creates these incredible speeches. And I have never met somebody who makes a full time living by writing speeches for other people.

0:53Ben Hanlin: I find this really, really interesting. And I really wanted to know. first of all how do you get a job doing this how do you end up creating a career where you're crafting speeches so he tells us all about that and also he tells us what goes on behind the scenes in the government of how they actually write their speeches which i found fascinating and then also really simply i wanted to know how do we all write an amazing speech and he tells us he gives us all his tips his tricks uh you can obviously he's a fantastic speaker so he's great to listen to as well we have i think this episode is jam-packed with gold i uh brianie my editor who's also my wife literally said to me i think this is one of the best ones we've done so i don't want to big this up too much but i think i might have just done that so um i will also as well i should tell you we recorded this in the podcast rooms in but in london and they're incredible they're our sponsors for this episode and they help um they have these incredible spaces so if you need to record podcast content whether it's in Brighton, London, in Birmingham they've got studios up and down the country and their studios are always fantastic and their staff are really friendly so if you need video content or podcast content check out the podcast rooms and for now let's dive into this episode of What's the Trick with Simon Lancaster.

2:13Ben Hanlin: So Simon first of all welcome Welcome to the podcast. Let's begin. I've never sat down with a speechwriter before. So let's bring us up to speed. How did you go from being a private secretary to being a full time speechwriter? And first of all, actually, what were you doing as a private secretary? What does that actually mean? Take us back to that moment. Yeah. So this in the late 1990s, just after Tony Blair had been elected prime minister and I did. I got the job that I'd always wanted from when I was at school. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and there was a TV programme called Yes Minister that depicted life in a minister's office, where you had the minister, his private secretary, his permanent secretary.

2:53And I'd always wanted to work in a minister's office. And this came true for me when I was in my mid-20s. And even better, I had a great minister to work for, a guy called Alan Johnson, who was the most incredible guy. I don't know whether you know about him. He was an amazing backstory, grew up in incredible poverty, was orphaned at the age of 12, left school at the age of 15. Incredible backstory. And I was working for him as his private secretary. And I can still remember to this day watching him deliver a speech for the first time. And I just watched with awe as this guy who came from nowhere had like a thousand people in the palm of his hands as he told story after story after story.

3:39And it blew my mind and it opened my it was that single instant. I remember it so well. It was a speech he gave to the TUC up in Harrogate. So the trade union movement. and he told stories about his first job, stacking shelves in Tesco. He talked and how he didn't have union representation. And the thing was, as I watched him speak, he changed the way that I thought about trade unions, you know. And that was when I realised the power of the speech. But also it wasn't just about the power of the speech. I realised that this was something anyone could do. That I think up until that day, I'd always imagined that to be a great speaker, you needed to be someone like Winston Churchill.

4:20you'd been to Harrow or Macmillan, you'd been to Eton. It never occurred to me that someone who'd grown up in poverty in central London could have that same power. So from that moment on, I made it my mission. I want to become a speechwriter. And sure enough, after being a private secretary, I became a full-time speechwriter.

4:39Ben Hanlin: Yeah, but that jump there, you just gone and then I became... What actually happens? Do you start putting your hand up and saying, can I have a go at writing some of your speeches? is how does this actually develop and also no no offense to you at the time you'd never written a speech you weren't a talker I'm guessing so how did you get from one position to another well I had always been completely fascinated by language so literally from as long as I can remember I was obsessed with books obsessed with writing but I'd always wanted to be a songwriter so from the age of about 11 I was writing a song a day and I thought my songs were brilliant I was sending them out to all the record companies and the view was universal even from my friends and loved ones it was kind of like yeah okay yeah but nevertheless I think that constantly working at that did give me a familiarity with language and ability to like really focus on words and think is that the right word does that read right and of course with all of the rhetorical devices like alliteration rhyme metaphor all of those things that the songwriters tools of the trade they work just as well for the speechwriter too.

5:48Ben Hanlin: Okay so you were you'd already had a skill of writing and a passion for it but you're sitting in that office and then do you say give me a speech let me write a speech for you did you kind of put your I didn't put my hand up I just started rewriting them so as the private secretary you are the interface between the rest of the world and the minister's private office so you know people in the department would draft speeches to them and I'd look at them and think I can make this better and I would just sprinkle some fairy dust on and get them better in this and And so because I knew Alan Johnson very well, I knew his style, I knew the kind of jokes he likes, I knew the kind of stories he wrote.

6:23So to start off with, I was editing. And then I got a full-time gig.

6:29Ben Hanlin: So then you get the gig. And then what happens? Because I think you may be, because this is your life, I think we all do, you take this for granted. Give us a day in the life or a week in the life. You go into Westminster. Is there a team of you? Are there loads of you? Is it just you on your own? What's life like as a speechwriter? As a full-time speechwriter working in Whitehall, life is insane. And I mean, it is literally absolutely insane. So I did it for about eight years. I was a full-time speechwriter in Whitehall. And I mean, your whole life revolves around speeches. Even when you're sitting having lunch with your family on a Sunday afternoon or you're in the cinema on a Friday night, You're thinking, what is the best way to open up that speech next week?

7:16What's the best opening line? You're waking up at three o 'clock in the morning with these things. You work incredibly hard. I mean, literally every week you're producing probably about 8 ,000 words. So, I mean, I can't think there are many other writers, novelists, journalists, who would produce that kind of output. You really are.

7:35Ben Hanlin: And is it something like the phone rings and it goes, we're here tomorrow, so-and-so needs a speech, draft us one, you've got an hour? go or something like that. As it's very worse that happens but most of the time it's actually very strategic so you have a speech strategy literally you're aware of all of the speeches that are in the diary coming up over a 12-month period you're thinking like I wrote for Alan when he was education secretary and you're like okay this is our main speech to teachers of the year this is our main speech to pupils this is our main speech to regulators this is our main speech to the unions and whatever and then you're like okay so you're you're always thinking several months ahead well let's look at this process you've come up you've been given the brief you've looked at the strategy you've come up with a speech and because we just see politicians walk out of a door stand in front of a microphone and read words and look at some notes that's how what we see on tv how much have they practiced it how much are they involved in this process and at what point you know what are the back and forth between that they're super involved so i mean the idea you get if you watch TV dramas about politics is that the speechwriter is kind of like a puppeteer controlling these idiot politicians.

8:45Doesn't work like that at all. Your best way, the best analogy for it actually is the speechwriter is like an impressionist. So you'll spend your whole time like watching your principal, listening carefully, trying to understand how they feel, why they feel it, trying to hoover out of them all of their stories, all of their jokes, in order that you can then give it back to them. So you're very much a servant in this kind of job. You're not shoving words in someone's mouth. And sometimes, I mean, whilst most of the time when the job's going well, you're very strategic about it. But you still get like the most terrifying speeches that I've been involved with have been those ones where literally you get a front page of the Daily Mail.

9:32It's a scandal. And then the Secretary of State is summoned to give a statement to the House of Commons. And you have you then have like three hours and you know nothing about the subject. And so you've got to get the experts in. You're talking to them. You're sitting there with the Secretary of State. and those last minute statements to the House of Commons, they're the ones where seriously, I mean, you know, your stomach, the acid in your stomach at the end of that morning is just...

10:01Ben Hanlin: And have you ever, not to be negative, have you ever written one when you were working there and it's been badly received or it's come off and the minister's gone, well, that wasn't very good. You've stitched me up there. I'm sure... Not that I would want to, no, I mean, you know, not... every single speech I think to be a writer to be in performance of any kind you always need to be a harsh critic of your own work and so every single speech I've ever written I think more about what could have been better with it there's no speech that I look back on and think that was perfect no speech I've ever written and also I think that I mean I've spoke to a lot of performers on this podcast and it's because you know you have to every every performance is a chance for an improvement isn't it and if you're only doing the speech once well that's just the first attempt imagine what it would have done if you'd done 200 performances of it yeah it's that so go on let's look at one of those speeches and what do you think one of the most important speeches or the biggest speech you ever wrote during that time yeah i mean there were all sorts of big things that came up when i was writing speeches so i you know wrote speeches secretary of state for education as a health secretary at a time where there were all sorts of massive national scandals um and big issues big things going through um and and they were big ones but the the one that i think uh probably puts a smile on my face um to the greatest extent still to this day was a speech that i did it would have been um probably autumn 2006 i guess when just briefly alan johnson was being touted as a potential successor to Tony Blair when of course Gordon Brown was the one everyone expected but I loved Alan so much and I really really wanted him to become Prime Minister and so I remember going all out in this speech thinking basically I want to make him sound like as much of a Prime Minister as I possibly can do and I remember he delivered that speech down Great George Street, which is just literally on the roads to Parliament.

12:08You see Big Ben as you're walking up there. And I remember on the day, walking with Alan as he went into this building to give the speech and literally all of the TV cameras were there and they were doing that doorstepping thing where they were all shouting at him, are you going to challenge for the leader of the Labour Party, Mr Johnson and all of this. And I remember the footage is probably still out there somewhere you'll see me walking a few uh feet behind alan johnson but with a massive grin on my face at the time and and that was that that was um that that was wonderful alas it was not to be uh gordon brown of course became prime minister and the rest is history but i tell you what i think if alan had become leader um i i think he'd have smashed um david cameron at that general election because he was fresh.

12:56Gordon Brown was not a fresh face. And I just think the British people, God love him, they would not have been able to resist the romance of a former postman becoming prime minister. I just, it was such a beautiful narrative, but alas, history took us another way. And instead we had 14 years of Tory government and didn't that go well?

13:17Ben Hanlin: I mean, all of a sudden we've now turned into a politics podcast. Sorry. I mean, no, we can... Reign it in. but so in that particular speech then did he sit because this is the thing is we see these people deliver these speeches was he working on that day and night was he saying it over and over again did you rehearse it with him or do you print it off and he goes yeah okay I've got this what's the process of delivering a speech for him it depends how big the speech is like some of them if it's not that important you just slip it into his red box the night before and he'll give it a read through beforehand And he would always give a speech a read through before standing up and delivering it at elect and would make some changes to it just to be sure that there were no sentences in there he was going to trip up over.

14:04But when it was a really big speech, as this one was, then it was an iterative process. We went back and forth. I can't remember how many drafts, but I would guess we probably went back and forth at least three or four times. and I would have been working with all his special advisors and all sorts of other people as well, making sure that everything was correct and in place.

14:25Ben Hanlin: So let's talk about recent politicians and let's keep this relatively politics-free in a way because actually I'm more interested about them as speech makers and communicators. So who in the last few years do you think has done it well? Let's start there. Yeah, you can't argue that Boris Johnson is the most important communicator of our times. You know, whether you like him or loathe him, whether you back his politics, what he's done, in terms of power and influence, no one's done it like him. And my politics, not that it's relevant, you know, but my experience, as you can see, is from the other side of politics.

15:07But I think it's fair to say that Brexit would not have happened were it not for that one guy deciding to campaign for Brexit. Indeed, when he announced that he was going to campaign for Brexit, the pound fell, as I recall, by 2 % in a day. Because even the markets recognised this guy has such magic to speak to your world, such influence over people that he alone can swing the vote. And he did.

15:31Ben Hanlin: Going back to Boris, though, I'm just going to paraphrase. some people would look at him especially people who aren't british that from an outside point of view that he was quite buffoon like and quite a mess right lovely but explain to us why that worked because i think we're all a bit of a mess aren't we and so there's something actually quite endearing and relatable about that sort of thing um i think the thing is that you need to as a leader you need to be two things you you need to be relatable but also you need to be slightly aspirational right so it needs to be someone where you can see a bit of yourself in them but also there's someone a bit better than you and I think I think Boris had that that he did look like a bit of an idiot like all of us like shirt hanging out and you know like you kind of didn't know where he was supposed to be but also incredibly aspirational because you're like I wish I could speak like that I wish I was intelligent as that I wish I was as eloquent as that I wish I was as articulate as that.

16:30And I think that's the combo that a leader needs. You need to be simultaneously relatable and aspirational. And it's the same with Trump. Trump speaks to the concerns of the American people. So they're like, I wish I had more money in my pocket. And he gets that. But he's a man with a ton of money in his pocket and with gold toilet seats and all of that. So it's relatable, but aspirational at the same time.

16:58Ben Hanlin: So that's for you the secret source of communicating as a leader is aspirational and relatable. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of other aspects to it. Yes, yes, yes. One person that I'd have loved to work with who has given some influential political speeches recently is Arnold Schwarzenegger. Oh, really? Yeah, and I love, he's been doing these beautiful little clips on social media. He did one during the insurrection. He did one on anti-Semitism. He did one after Putin invaded Ukraine. And these speeches are immaculately written. They follow a beautiful, well-known structure, my story, our story.

17:35What next? It's beautiful. And I love Arnie. And so you see, this is the thing. You know, you always want the outsider. Arnie does a video on politics. 100 million people. Watch it. A politician does a video on politics. You know, they're kind of grateful for 250 views on TikTok.

17:53Ben Hanlin: Well, Arnie was obviously the governor of California, which is one of the biggest GDPs in the world. He was almost bigger than most countries, that GDP. So he managed to go from being this big muscle-headed actor that barely spoke any lines to running this entire thing. So he clearly had a way of, like I say, being an outsider and getting there. But let's break that down for a second. You said his framework. Can you tell us that? Yeah, I mean, it's my preferred framework when I'm writing speeches for clients. It's a very simple one. So you find a theme for your speech is the first thing. And the theme could be a moral word like, you know, today I'm going to talk about one word, one word only responsibility, resilience, respect, hard work, honesty, humility.

18:42they all work well so it could be a moral appeal or it could be like a kind of controversial argument you know why everyone should play tennis say do you know what I mean or something like that

18:53Ben Hanlin: so you find one simple two or three word sentence that's your core core core that's the core and it runs right the way through everything you say so you have one message driving it and then that gives the speaker purpose it gives the audience clarity don't try and say too much in a speech if you can say one word or one sentence you've done well you know got it um and then you build around it so your my story is then well when was the first time that you discovered the importance of this word or tennis or whatever and then you move to the hour story why does the world now need your word or tennis more than ever and then the what next bit what are we doing to bring more of your words to the world and it's really simple as a framework So that was literally, you just explained it in 30 seconds.

19:40Ben Hanlin: And now we can all go, if I had to do a speech, what is the one sentence this is about? What's the first time I experienced that? Why is it relevant today? And what are we going to do next? You got it. You got it. And it's, I mean, it's not the framework that you would want for all speeches. So if you want an inspirational speech, you want to build a movement, that's your one. That is fantastic. one last thing about Arnie I read his book and he talked about when he had to do speeches and when he had to learn lines for films and very very simply he talked about doing the reps so what he said was every time he he said there's no because everyone wants to know how to learn a speech how to deliver it and you know not look like they're reading words and he basically just said every time I read through the script I put a dash at the top of the script with a line and my goal between now and when we film is how many lines I could get on that the front page of the script and every dash was a rep and all I've got to do is get the reps in and he just treats it like going to the gym he's like it's just about going through it over and over and over and over again and that's it and that's how you get good at speech like did a ring speeches and the same with any performance isn't it I love that you know I love that idea of reps but you see musicians doing it as well when they're learning singing songs and stuff like that there's a wonderful clip which is going viral of the Beatles you know during the Get Back sessions when they're singing two of us and they're singing it through their teeth like this.

21:08And it's a great, I do that with speeches where I'll deliberately practice reading the speech using a stupid voice or doing it through my teeth like that. And it then makes it feel so easy when you actually remove whatever constraint you've introduced for yourself.

21:22Ben Hanlin: Well, let's talk about that. So I have a big thing where I say, I watch a lot of people, I do a lot of events. I see these big leaders come up and they're basically just reading page after page. and my goal is always to get my, I can do an hour-long speech and I've got half a page of notes and each word is a jumping off point for me to then tell a story or do whatever it is. But how do you teach people to memorise a script? How do they get it away from being able to read it? Do you have any little techniques? I've always got to work with the individual and find what works for them. But one that I find works beautifully is when we're doing that, my story, our story, what next?

21:58You just depict it as a clock. with your key bits written around. So the my story is there, the our story there, and the what next there. And so you've then got trigger words written all the way around that clock. And then when they're up there and they're like looking out to the audience like this, literally they're visualising that clock going around. So they're like, I'm now there, I'm now there. Oh, nice. Works beautifully. And that is the big breakthrough one. And of course, whenever you're delivering from memory as opposed to reading off a script, there's always a danger that you might lose a line or two.

22:34But for me, the benefit you get from delivering it in the moment and actually being able to look the audience in the eye far outweighs any of that. And it's great because the audience think, you know, oh, the speaker's looking right at me. Whereas in fact, the speaker has created this filter in their imagination, which sits between them and the audience.

22:56Ben Hanlin: Hello, it's Ben, and this is a short commercial break. And regular listeners know I've been saying since the beginning, it's not really a commercial break because we don't have any sponsors. But we do have one official sponsor, and it is the podcast room, which is where we recorded this episode with Simon. And their podcast rooms are up and down the country. I like working with them because whenever I need to find a guest, I can usually find one of their studios. So they've got them in Brighton, I think Leeds, Birmingham, London. Their staff are friendly. The video quality is great. so it just means if you need to film content or a podcast if you go to the podcast room I think their price is really really reasonable as well so I can't recommend them enough have a look at them so let's dive into this right Simon absolute legend and I really enjoyed this conversation I just thought it was lovely to have a glimpse into somebody else's professional and the way he thinks and he breaks it down doesn't he on how easy it is to to speak clearly on stage which I love If you want to go and support him, there are many things.

23:56Ben Hanlin: You can go and follow him on social media. He's the speech writer. And also, if you search Simon Lancaster, you can find him. He's got books. He's done four books. The latest one was Connect. And the other one that he loves is Winning Minds, which he also talks about. And if you want to work with him, you can find him at bespokespeeches.com. And that's where literally CEOs and people from all over the world get in touch with him. And you could eventually be working with Simon. So those are all the things to go and support, Simon. And even if you just enjoyed his chat, I'm sure he'd appreciate a DM on Instagram saying, hey, loved your chat.

24:29Ben Hanlin: What do I need to tell you? I have got quite a big announcement, I'd say, that is coming next Tuesday. But if you listen to this after next Tuesday, I might as well announce it anyway. And that is that we are officially launching our Substack. Substack for What's the Trick? So what is this? So for those that don't know Substack, I think it's a really incredible platform where it creates this, it's a great place to create a community, but it's also about weekly newsletters and bonus content. So what I wanna do with this podcast and with myself, I suppose, is to create a weekly newsletter where I sum up all of the learnings from each guest and I email them straight to you.

25:08Ben Hanlin: So if you don't have a chance to listen to the full episode or if you've missed one, you get that. Plus there's gonna be other things and thoughts from me that I'm going to include in that. And also, depending on different things, there's going to be some bonus content and a place I really want to create a community where we can talk to each other about the podcast and you can help me ask future guests questions and we can discuss everything that's going on. So if you're really enjoying this and you want to learn more about this world and you're into this subject, please go and find me on Substack.

25:36Ben Hanlin: I'm going to put the link in the show notes. You can go and find me on Instagram and it'll be on my link tree. If you go and follow me anywhere and click on the link, you'll find my Substack and join it and be a part of this growing community. I'm really excited about it. I think Substack is going to be a really special thing that we're going to build. So that's my big announcement. Substack is coming. I think I'm officially launching it on Tuesday or Wednesday next week, but you've heard it here first. So there we go. And as always, what am I going to ask of you? Well, I have been loving the messages over the last few weeks.

26:07Ben Hanlin: I have, I'll be honest with you I've missed an episode or two of the last two weeks is because I've struggled to get guests availability it's a really busy time of year I've been on the road with gigs I've done I think five or six gigs so far in and it's the 9th of October today so it's quite a busy month at the moment so but but do not fear we have some great guests coming up but that's why there's been a bit of a gap I've been loving the messages of people that have been going back and listening or finding the pod. So as always, just follow me on social media. It's whatsthetrickpod on Instagram or it's benhanlinanywhere and just drop me a message.

26:46Ben Hanlin: I do look at every DM. Just tell me how you're finding the show. And also if you've got any friends, and this is the biggie, if you're part of a WhatsApp group or a Facebook group, maybe you're into a particular niche of whatever your hobbies are, please just tell them about it and share it. You might think sharing on your stories doesn't mean much, but honestly it really does so everyone you can talk about or tell about or even dm me about places you think i should be going to to try and spread the word love to hear from you anyway that's enough of my ramblings um as always i'm absolutely loving uh these episodes and what we're making we've got some uh good ones coming up so in fact i'll tell you what i'll do i'll give you a little sneak peek if you stay till the end of this episode i'll tell you who next week's guest is.

27:31Ben Hanlin: All right, there we go. Let's get back into it with Simon Lancaster. Quick question then. Greatest speech ever written? Not by you here at this point. Crikey. Boy, oh boy, oh boy. I mean, you know, the classic, the quick one is obviously the Gettysburg Address. That is the shortest and simplest demonstration of the simple rhetorical devices, government of the people, by the people, for the people. But I mean, for sheer audacity, I actually quite enjoy the closing speech in the trial of OJ Simpson. Go on. When Johnny Cochran, his lawyer, I mean, this was a guy who was guilty, right? And it was like how to get away with murder was that speech.

28:23And again, in terms of the use of rhetoric.

28:26Ben Hanlin: It's quite awesome to look at. Well, I've never heard that speech. For those that were listening that are also in the same boat as me, can you just summarise what he did then? Well, let me summarise three big rhetorical devices that he used in there. So the first, he said, if the glove... So the case hinged on whether or not O.J. Simpson had killed his ex-wife and her friend. And one of the key bits of evidence from the police was a glove. Yeah. And the defence claims that the glove didn't fit. And so Johnny Cochran had this line, if the glove don't fit, you must acquit. So a simple rhyme. Now, studies have shown we're more likely to believe something's true if it rhymes than if it does not rhyme.

29:11So this was genius. You know what? And it sticks in people's minds, makes it more memorable. So we had that line. That was the first one. The other line that he had was that he said, OJ Simpson could not, would not, and did not commit this crime. So again, this is the power of three. Again, studies show we're more likely to remember something. If it comes in threes, more likely to believe it. If it comes in threes, more likely to act on it if it comes in threes. So again, you've got really deep rhetoric. Even the way you just explained that was in three. Obviously. I've got to practice what I preach, right?

29:43And so that was the second device. The other one, he had a beautiful metaphor in there where he talked about the police and he said they allowed this investigation to be infected. by a dishonest policeman. And so there, this idea that the Mets are diseased, you're not the Met, obviously the LAPD, that the LAPD are diseased and therefore that they can be cured. And so he's using a metaphor. Now, again, studies have shown that just changing the metaphor in a piece of text can lead to massive, massive swings in the way people think, feel and act about all sorts of things, ranging from whether or not they'll agree to change their behaviour on being told they've got cancer, to whether or not they'll agree to take a vaccine, to all sorts of different applications.

30:31And so, yeah, it was a wicked speech,

30:34Ben Hanlin: but it was a very impressive speech. Wow. Do you know what? You could have given me 100 guesses. I wouldn't have got that. Thank you for that. Right, let's move on. And I want to talk about what you do a lot on the day-to-day. A CEO calls you up, massive company. They've got to deliver these speech to a thousand people and you sit with them and you help them work on their speeches. Yeah. Now, this is a problem, I suppose. What's great about anyone listening is we all have to in life at some point get up and deliver a speech. So I want to dive into this process. My first thing is, actually, here's the first question.

31:06Ben Hanlin: Most of these leaders are obviously very intelligent. They've got to where they've got in and they're heads of these global companies. What are the common mistakes you normally see to make? And I know everyone's different, but in general. um i mean i think overloading people with information is is the biggest one um and not having a simple message running through so it's almost if you were to walk away with it by powerpoint it's death by powerpoint that's the thing that you see but with still with even like you know global ceos are some of the biggest companies in the world they think that if they issue a 160 page powerpoint deck people are going to pay attention to it and they just don't they They all tune out.

31:47Ben Hanlin: And you need to go, well, what is the core message at the end of it, essentially? What is that one sentence? What are you trying to do? So the way that I, if I get called in by one of these CEOs. Yeah, let's go through this. What's step one? Literally, my promise to my clients now is I'll do them a draft in a day. So I do everything for them in a day. I could go in, have blank sheets in the morning. They know nothing. By the end of the day, they have got a draft speech. And so it starts with a breakfast meeting at eight o 'clock. over breakfast. We talk about the speech, what they want to get out of it.

32:20You know, I just want to get people excited. People are feeling a bit tired, lethargic. You know, they need to be fired up. So we talk about the objective. We talk about what's going on in the audience's mind, how they're feeling. And then we'll try and find a theme for the speech, like I was saying earlier, moral theme. It might be a metaphor. It might be a controversial argument. And then we'll start speaking a bit about the content. So by the end of the breakfast, I would have hoped to have been able to outline to them, okay, here's how I'm seeing the speech. And then I'll walk them through a structure like this.

32:55They'll give me some feedback on it. And then breakfast is done. I'm then free to get on with writing the thing. Then between about nine o 'clock and 1230, I'm working up first draft for them. We then have lunch together. They come down, we'll have a sandwich and I will read to them the draft that I've written. And sometimes at that point, in fact, probably about three or four times over the last few months, I've had clients just say at lunchtime, that's freaking brilliant. That's better than I was hoping for. And I'll take that away. But more often than not, at lunchtime, they're saying, yeah, and I'm asking questions and I'm thinking, let's get this a bit better.

33:34I think this is a bit weak. Or they're saying, don't like what you've done there. And so we then have another run through and then I'm back. and then we meet, but not for another meeting.

33:45Ben Hanlin: Yeah, yeah. That would be excessive. You just want to eat for free. I do, totally. Well, the thing is I want it to be efficient for them. So I'm like, my whole promise to them is I'm not going to interrupt your day. You can have all of your meetings, but just come and, and I think people think better when they're eating as well. So as they're literally chewing, we're metaphorically chewing over the substance of the speech. but the final meeting of the day we'll work on rehearsal we'll get the speech up on the screen and they will read it out and so we'll do a live edit then and so that's what I do and you know I'm using AI to help me along the process so I always record that first meeting I record it I'm getting it transcribed I use the Otter app and then when I if I've got questions afterwards I'm like oh, what were they saying about what company was it they mentioned in America that had done this, that and the other?

34:39And the AI would straight away go boom, boom, boom, and will give me more detail on that thing. So, you know, AI for me, AI is a terrible writer. Never ask AI to write anything. It will give you words, but they'll be useless. But use AI as a researcher, as a creative collaborator, as an editor, and it is genius. Yes.

35:02Ben Hanlin: So thank you for explaining that. That's a pretty cool day that a lot of people listening will have very different days in their work. But let's talk about this first draft because this is the other thing is, OK, so you've got some structures. You kind of know what you're going to say when you sit down and go, right, I'm now staring at this blank piece of paper. In three hours, it's going to be full of words. Yeah. What's your process to write? Do you just write and sorry, let me explain. Do you just go and then get to the end of it or know what? Go on then. You've got to start by knowing what your theme is.

35:34And so that's the most important thing. So read, read, read, read, read as much as you possibly can until you're clear the title of the speech is one of those moral words. So you start with a metaphorical idea. The title is key. Yeah, absolutely. Because you can't write until you've got that. And so when I'm working, a lot of people do, and that's the mistake a lot of people make, I think, when they're preparing speeches. They're just boom, boom, boom. And then they've got the whole job of cutting and pasting. And there's no coherence and people can see the joins. Whereas when you're clear what your governing idea is, every speech needs at its heart a single brilliant idea.

36:11So like my keynote that I do is the language of leadership. Straightway obvious what that means, isn't it? You know what I mean? There's a secret language of leadership that leaders have spoken since the dawn of time. It's based on ancient rhetoric and neuroscience. I'm going to reveal a treasure trove of techniques. so you get your first line the language of leadership and then you get your little one paragraph so like the equivalent the best analogy i think is if you think of a book you get your title first and then what's your blurb on the back of the book and then you can start writing the book

36:41Ben Hanlin: right okay and then when you do that do you just so i always think when i write by speeches i actually think in bullet points and sections first so for me i'll go there's a section of almost like i'm writing the contents bit i'll go there's a section there's a section there's a And once I look at my sections, then I fill in the gaps. Yeah. But do you just, some people would just start typing and just let themselves type. What would you do? Yeah, I never type it. I'll draw it. I'll kind of squiggle it. I might have odd words. What do you mean, draw it? Like literally sometimes with pictures. So I'm like, you know, starting off with the, you know, like yesterday or on Friday, I was working with a client that was telling me that their opening story was about them going swimming.

37:29And so I would literally draw someone in their swimming costume. So I think I always think visually and I think human beings think visually. You know, there's there was this idea that was trendy a few years ago that you're either visual auditory or kinetic. I think that's bullshit. We're all visual, you know? All of us are visual. So just every speech should just be picture after picture, whether it's stories you're telling or metaphors you're telling, comparisons. You've got to be painting pictures in the audience's mind. Do you want the audience to be sitting there hallucinating, seeing what it is you're talking about?

38:05Ben Hanlin: Oh, so what you're doing, that's really... So what you're actually doing is creating an image in their head with words, and then you're moving to another image with words, and then another image. So actually, yeah, if you were to do it, you could almost have a Flickr book of the last hour was 20 images. I literally, I mean, I used to love reading comics when I was little and I still often will draw out the first draft of my speech thinking in comic format where it's different frames and then I'm putting in the different stories, the images that I want to land and then you can clearly see what the audience experience is going to be.

38:40Ben Hanlin: So there's really interesting, a couple of things I want to point out, right? So we interviewed a guy called Owen Cutts, who's a music producer. And I asked him, how did he start writing songs? Or how does a song start? Like we're having this conversation. And I thought it would be, you know, let's say they were talking about a breakup or whatever. And he said that the way they did it is they thought about the camera perspective of whose perspective are we going to start with for this relationship? Is it from the boy, the girl, the friend, the mother, the family member, whoever it is? He said, all a song is, is a perspective.

39:10Ben Hanlin: So once we've got our visual of the perspective, then we start writing the song. So I think that, so it's interesting. You're starting with an image in your mind. But for me, the best advice I ever heard about a magic show, so obviously I stand on stage, is I always think about my show as what are the, if a photographer was taking photos and you were to collate the show in 20 images, what are, does it look interesting and exciting? Because they'll forget everything. They'll remember snapshots of me on stage. so I do a thing where I pull out needles and they're all attached to a piece of string but you can visualise and remember that image clearly or if a magician gets in a tank of water you remember that image clearly it's spectacle but you can have spectacle in different ways you can have it where you're sat on a chair with a single spotlight and that's an image or you could be at a table with cards so the idea is your show should be very different images rather than the same image of a guy stood in front of a microphone Yeah.

40:09Ben Hanlin: So that's, but I've never heard anyone talk about it with speeches that actually it's image to image to image to image. Yeah. Because otherwise it is very boring. You're just looking at one person at a lectern or at best walking around the stage, you know, doing the look no notes. Yeah. Kind of thing. Well, that's, I tell you what, let's talk about then speaking, let's talk about openings and endings. Yeah. So I interviewed Darren Brown and he's very, he's very good at his opening things that he does and his endings, his finales. And he said it to me. He said, I think it was Stan Laurel that said, open strong, finish big.

40:45Ben Hanlin: So that's his mindset. When he steps on stage, he's going to open strong, but he's going to finish big. What's your thoughts when you're writing a speech, opening and ending? Completely right. I mean, you just gave me a flashback. You gave me a little hallucination to see in a Darren Brown show a few years ago. Whereas I remember, and I remember it so well, the way it opened, where he wasn't on stage, but you had all these clocks depicted on the stage and he was like, your whole life is going back in time. Your whole life has revolved. And it was just like, where am I? Man, you've just completely grabbed me and lifted me out of this theatre and dropped me somewhere completely different.

41:26Ben Hanlin: But what's interesting is a lot of studies say that the things we remember in a performance, particularly the opening and the endings, the bits in the middle, if I was to quiz you on what happened in the middle, you probably wouldn't remember. peak there's peak end yes as well but yeah absolutely right so for me the audience does make its mind up instantly and you can go up there and say i'm delighted to be here and that's what most people do and that's the worst beginning imaginable because for a start you're starting with a lie who's ever delighted to be given a speech you know but also as well that just communicates to the audience we're going through the motions here so far better You want to start off by disrupting people's expectations.

42:07People are expecting you to start off like that. So start with anything that's a disruption. Confound their expectations. It could be an unusual quote. It could be a provocative statement. It could be a question. You could ask them to do something or start with a story. In 1977, my mum said to me five words that I will remember for the rest of my life. and I'll never forget we were in Kensington Gardens she was pushing me on the swing you know and straight away what were the five words you know and so all of those things but for God's sake don't do what's predictable I think I've seen you speak about this as well the importance of disrupting people's

42:51Ben Hanlin: pattern breaks and it's exactly that it's forcing them to if they're sat in an audience I don't take for granted that they're being present because we could be sat in a 500 ,000-seater audience and thinking about a million things. So you've got to do something to physically shake them and wake them up. So for me, as a performer, I get them all to stand up usually. Usually within 30 seconds of being on stage, I go, right, out your seat, stand up. So I physically disrupted you that way. Totally. And that would have raised their pulse a little bit. You'd have got some hormones going in the room. So go on then.

43:23Ben Hanlin: If you're a CEO and working with a CEO, you would challenge them to think about that opening. Is it a story? Is it a statistic? Is it something just to make people lean in, right? Yeah, or a quotation. And also for them, the way that they deliver that first line is so important in terms of their confidence. Then I always will encourage them to just really slow down that delivery. So say they've got a quotation, they've got a story. So just go, it was 5pm, October 16th, 1963. And then as soon as you've done that, your nervous system will have just calmed down a little bit, enough that you can then speak at an ordinary pace.

44:11Ben Hanlin: And yeah, those pauses are really important. That's really interesting. You get them to think about what they're saying and then how they're saying it in the first, that's your opening. Let's talk about endings then. How do we end big? All the rhetorical devices. Go on then. So you want, I mean, literally, you want the rule of three, you want repetition, you want metaphor, you want contrast, and for that very last line, give us a rhyme as well. You know, and boom, that's the way to end. The end has got to be even bigger than the beginning was. And hopefully in that final bit, you bring together any loose ends that you've had throughout the course of your speech, you bring them all back.

44:48Ben Hanlin: So can you give us, because I get it, And it's very easy to say as performers, you can end with all sorts of, but someone's going, well, look, I've got a speech to 20 people next week. I'm not going to be dancing, you know, jumping from the ceilings. Can you give us a real world example maybe of how someone can apply that then? Well, if it's a real world example, yeah, you might not want to go crazy on the rhetoric. Although having said that, still using repetition, the rule of three, and a bit of metaphor would be wholly appropriate, even if it was just like 20 people, but maybe you'd temper the, exaggeration or whatever.

45:23But I'm thinking about the big speeches. Like, you know, one of my favourite speeches from the last few years was Oprah Winfrey. She delivered a fantastic speech to the Golden Globes, like 2018, where she started off, she my story, our story, what next? She opened with the story of when she was five years old and she saw Sidney Poitier winning the award for Best Actor. First time ever. And this all of a sudden taught her, wow, you know, black people can achieve things. And all of a sudden she's there. That was her My Story. And then she ended saying, so to all the little girls watching today, let me say a new day is on the horizon.

45:59And when that day finally dawns, it will be because of all of the great men and women

46:04Ben Hanlin: in this room today. Boom, boom, boom. And it was just brilliant. So she touched back to how she'd begun. And it was like a stand-up comic would do it, where the end brings you simultaneously a rush of dopamine, endorphins, serotonin, oxytocin, and literally, you know, there were more drugs in that room for Oprah's speech than there probably were at Leonardo DiCaprio's after party. Right. Keeping with Oprah and that film-related metaphor, in films, what's been some of the best speeches in films? Oh, they've been such caulkers. The one that I'm going to highlight is The Wolf of Wall Street. one.

46:47You know the Jordan Belfort one on that where he's getting them to sell Steve Madden stock. Is it when he's in the office? Yeah, he's in the office.

46:56Ben Hanlin: Okay. So go on. Why is that so good from your point of view? I mean, well, he said for a start, it's the change it achieves. Like I was saying about the Alan Johnson speech, the reason that I loved watching Alan speak was he created change in the audience. Jordan Belfort goes on. He's got a load of demotivated traders. He's got to pump them up. He's got to get them excited. He starts with where they are, demotivated. And then by the end of it, they are like wanting to rip the roof off. And it's phenomenal. But one of the reasons I love it is because he uses all of the rhetorical devices in there.

47:29So he starts with a metaphor saying that your phone is at their M16s, M16 rifles ready for you to go out and shoot down all of your clients. You know, and it's going like that.

47:43Ben Hanlin: So he's got a metaphor and you love metaphors. Love metaphors, yeah. And so it's like this is you're going to be a winner, you're going to be strong, you're going to win the war. Very aggressive metaphor like Wall Street metaphors often are. Indeed, the wolf is quite aggressive. There are rhymes in there. There's the rule of three in there. There's repetition. So there's no nobility and poverty, he says, is one such rhyme. He has repetition in the rule of three as he's saying, get on the phone and start dialing. If you think, you know, you're a loser, get on the phone and start dialing. If you think you're this, get on the phone and start dialing.

48:23And so building up like that. And it's just incredible. And the backstory for how this was written was apparently that Martin Scorsese got the real life Jordan Belfort in and said to him, like, you've got to imagine we're the traders. Just do your thing. Really? And then he transcribed it. And what Jordan Belfort said in that improv bit was what then made it into the final scripts

48:49Ben Hanlin: would have been polished and honed, no doubt. Can we talk about then, obviously, the obvious one would be Al Pacino, The Inches Speech. Yes. In your mind, good speech, bad speech? Yeah, oh, phenomenal. And there, because he's talking about sport, but he talks about sport as if it's war. And so that is another speech, which is based around metaphor. He says, you're going to get killed out there. They're going to take you to within an inch of your life. No, they're not. You know, but he's making it out that the pitch is the battlefield. And so, again, this is a wonderful demonstration of the power of metaphor, how using metaphor, you change the way people think, feel and act.

49:29And it works in all sorts of different ways. So there you're taking sport and turning it into war in order to make people think it's more important than it really is. You know, how many football teams will talk about like, you know, the Red Army, the Blue Army, you know, and it's the same kind of idea. But there's another way where you can change the way people perceive about something by stop talking about it as war and start talking about it as sport. Let me give you an example. This morning on the Today programme, they had a slot talking about diabetes, type 1 diabetes, and Diabetes UK are launching a new campaign called Tackle Diabetes.

50:09Previously, they've always said we should fight diabetes, and they've always used the idea that it should be like a war. Now, my daughter, my eldest daughter, Lottie, she's 18 years old. She has type 1 diabetes. And I'll never forget when she was diagnosed. And she was terrified of having to have an injection of insulin. And the doctors were saying they were trying to explain to her why she needed it. And they showed her this little cartoon that depicted it using the metaphor that when you eat sugar, you're consuming nasty green monsters that are then threatening to attack all of your vital organs.

50:45and you need to get the insulin in because the insulin's like a superhero that's going to go around and shoot down all of these molecules. And my daughter was looking at this cartoon like, no, no. Oh, too aggressive. Too aggressive. And so, you know, obviously, it's not a nice way to think about it, whereas thinking about it is a game where you can win, you've got to be fit, you've got to look after yourself, far, far better. And so they had a rugby player on this morning, an international rugby player who has type 1 diabetes, so for whom that metaphor of tackle diabetes was completely appropriate and that's how you shift the way you shift a metaphor you shift the way people think feel and act I love metaphors

51:24Ben Hanlin: fantastic thank you right quick couple quick bits before we dive into my fast five so confidence yeah now this is somebody's going to be listening to this going well that's all great but if you were to put me on stage in front of a thousand people I would be so scared right So what advice can you give to people when people say, I've got this thing tomorrow. I'm absolutely bricking it. How do you make people more confident? Yeah. So it's about seeing it beforehand. When you go to sleep in the weeks leading up to that big speech, that big pitch, as you're lying down in that twilight period before wake and between wake and sleep, just see yourself deliver it and see yourself being confident.

52:07See yourself being brilliant. Create in your mind a movie reel of you being the best speaker in the world. Most people do the opposite. They have an image in their mind of themselves, you know, shitting themselves on stage or tripping over on the way up there, being an idiot, forgetting their words. Get rid of that image. See it. See it. So positive visualisation, positive verbalisation as well. Stop saying, I can't speak. I can't do this. Say to yourself, I can. I'm enough. You've always spoken. All your life you've spoken. If you can speak down the pub with your mates, if you can speak around the dinner table with your family, you can speak to an audience of a thousand people.

52:44Ben Hanlin: People will say, yeah, but I've not done this before. I'm a rubbish at public speaking compared to so and so who's brilliant. I'm terrible. Yeah, that's why you mentally rehearse it. Practice in your mind beforehand. You do not need to actually physically be on a stage in order to imagine that you're on a stage. When my big thing in my the turning point in my career was 10 years ago when I did my first ever TEDx talk. and I'd never done a big speech before I did that. And I was shitting it. I used to get, I'd never, I'd always been the backroom guy, the speech writer. This was me going on and it was going to go on YouTube whether I flew or I died, you know.

53:23And so I knew it was make or break. And literally every night beforehand, I was seeing myself on the stage being brilliant. And in the end, when I was up there, you know, at any time that I felt awkward, I felt uncomfortable, I just replayed that image in my mind. I was like, I've done this before. I've literally done it in my sleep. Right. And so it was no big deal. And that TEDx talk has now had over 5 million views on YouTube alone, heaps many millions more on TikTok and Instagram, and it changed my career. But it was the first talk I'd ever done. Wow.

53:58Ben Hanlin: And let's, other than confidence, The other thing I get often if I'm talking about this kind of subject to an audience, there's always going to be a hand that will come up and go, this is all great. But what if you're talking to an audience and there's conflict or I'm speaking to a group of people that are not happy? How do you deal with that as the person on stage or the person chairing this event or this meeting? Yeah, I mean, I have a whole model of communication which I've set out in my books, which is about speaking to people's instincts and emotions above logic. So it's all about how you frame what you're saying to bring people with you.

54:32You start by speaking to their instincts, which you can do in many ways. Metaphor, humor, your body language speaks to people's instincts, appeal to morality, showing you're part of the same community as them, basically. So, you know, that's where you start. Then you speak to their emotional brain. That's where you get some of those chemicals going, the serotonin, oxytocin, all of those beautiful things that change how we think, feel and act. And then the logical brain. So let me give you a practical formula, which works very well. If someone challenges you from an audience, Eva, empathy, values, action.

55:09So someone could say to a politician, you know, what's going on with the health service at the moment? It's a mess. I've been waiting months now to see my GP, Eva. I can see you're angry and I know a lot of people around the country are really frustrated with what's going on with the health service at the moment. We get it. You know, there's your empathy, then the values. We love the NHS. We want to protect the NHS. We want the NHS to be the best in the world. And then you move to the action. That's why we're saying that we're doing this, that and the other. So just slowly bringing people with you.

55:45It's whenever there's conflict, you start with what you have in common with your audience. speak to their instincts and then move them forward from that. Whereas other times, you know, people will lean into the conflict. Don't lean into the conflict. Remind people of what you have in common.

56:00Ben Hanlin: Thank you very much, Eva. Very easy to remember. Beautiful. And then another thing that is a curveball question. Sometimes in life you get thrown. It's funny enough, actually, I did an event last night and people were winning awards and it's one of the few awards where they actually let you do a speech. And people were walking on stage and some people were prepared a speech and they didn't know they'd won. Some people hadn't. So they had the time from hearing that they'd won the award to walking up onto the stage to doing an acceptance speech. And that's just one scenario. But there are times in life where you'd be at a dinner party and someone would go, go on, get up and do a speech or whatever.

56:31Ben Hanlin: Do you have a trick to how you can create a speech on the fly, like within 30 seconds notice? My story, our story, what next? That's it. There you go. You know, you're doing the award. You know, when I was growing up in a council estate in West Kensington, I never thought that one day I'd be receiving an award like this. And then you move to the Astoria and I couldn't have done it without learning from all the amazing people in this room. People like so-and-so, this, that and the other. But I'm not done yet. You know, I'm not returning to what next. You know, let's have more successes. So just that little my story, Astoria, what next for the impromptu.

57:08Beautiful. Love it. Right.

57:10Ben Hanlin: I'm going to move on to our fast five. Are you ready for my fast five? Ready. All right. First question. Highlander question. in the film Highlander immortals kill another immortal and when you kill another immortal you steal that person's expertise and knowledge so if you could steal anybody's expertise or knowledge dead or alive who would it be? oh cracky Freddie Mercury's voice I'd love to sing like Freddie Mercury yeah done fine you've got it time capsule if you could keep one thing you've ever created whether it's a book or a speech or a moment whatever it is and that's being kept and everything else is being evaporated forever.

57:47My two daughters.

57:49Ben Hanlin: Well, yeah, technically you have created them. That's fine. But they're safe. I mean, of your body of work. Of my body of work. I've written a few books. The book that I am most proud of is Winning Minds, Secrets from the Language of Leadership, which sets out this approach of speaking to instincts, emotions, logical. And I wrote that book in 2015 before Brexit, before Boris, before Trump. But I think you can read it now and you can see that I showed exactly what was going to happen with Boris, with Trump and with Brexit. And that is the framework that for so many people is revelatory. Still, I speak to literally, you know, every day I get messages from people saying, my God, that book was, you know, revelatory for me.

58:39Ben Hanlin: Fantastic. Winning Minds is what it's called. Go and have a look at it. Culture Vulture. so what is the thing you've seen recently book, film, movie, anything that you've experienced that you want to share, that you've loved oh god, I've just read the most brilliant book London Falling, which is big in all the bookshops at the moment it's this phenomenal story about the 19 year old kid who killed himself and it turned out he'd been kind of pretending that he was the son of a Russian oligarch it's a real life story who wrote that? It was a New York Times, I forget the author, it's a New York Times journalist.

59:15Yes. And it's the same guy who wrote the book about the healthcare industry, but his healthcare book I couldn't stand actually. I gave up after one chapter. But London Falling is gripping. It reads like a thriller, but the fact it's all factual and set here in our great city and actually gives great insight to what goes on under the surfaces in our great city. It blew my mind. I've recommended it to so many people and everyone that I've recommended it to has read it and loved it.

59:45Ben Hanlin: Right. It's called London Falling. Go and give that a read. And my magic wand. I'm going to give you my magic wand. And with that magic wand, you can make something from the world of, I suppose, speech writing and presentation vanish forever. What would it be? Oh, Lord. Nerves. Yeah. Wouldn't that be a beautiful thing if you could just get rid of it? Because for so many people, it really does. It ruins their life, doesn't it? It's the cause, people's nerves for public speaking. Yeah. I mean, it's been the cause of so many arguments, sleepless nights. You just think around the world. Wouldn't you love to kill that?

1:00:21Ben Hanlin: Yes. And I do think if ever, you know, the long term solution for that is, it sounds really boring, doesn't it? But you've just got to go and do it like a hundred times, I think. The more you get on those stages, the more those nerves will go down, won't they? Absolutely right. And the final question, Simon, I've loved this chat. It's been a real insight into a completely different career that 99.9 % of us have never even heard about. So thank you. But what is the trick to having a career as a successful speechwriter? Asking questions, being curious, staying curious in people, in issues. You know, I'm constantly reading as well.

1:01:03Peggy Noonan, who was Ronald Reagan's speechwriter, she had this wonderful line where she said, reading is collecting wisdom and writing is spending it. But key thing, curiosity. Stay curious. Thank you, Simon. Absolutely loved it. Cheers.

1:01:21Ben Hanlin: So there we go. That was Simon Lancaster. Fantastic professional speechwriter there. I love the episode. I loved his energy. I loved his passion. and I was just listening back to that and thinking what were my key takeaways I think what was really interesting is the simplicity of because we all often I think in our communication we complicate things I loved how he talked about very simply what is the one word like what this speech is one word or if you want to broaden out one sentence what is it and then everything you write comes back to that that's what keeps it clear keeps it focused keeps it structured and then I just loved his three points my story our story what next and when you think about connecting with people on stage and I talk about this a lot in my keynotes there's a lot of overlap there but people do want to hear about your story as long as it's relevant to what we're supposed to be doing so it's kind of what's the overriding thing then what is my story my perspective lived experience that reiterates that point it's so simple isn't it when someone explains it my story our story what next?

1:02:27Ben Hanlin: Right, I promised you a guest announcement. So this is, I'm going to tell it you now, we haven't recorded this yet. So I don't know how it's going to go. I'm hoping it's going to come out next week. But if not, it might probably be the week after. Because the guest I'm going to go and meet next week is Alan Barrett. Now, some of you will really know that name, and some of you won't. Alan Barrett is the creator of grenade, I suppose, chocolate bars, grenade protein bars. But it wasn't just that. It's the company Grenade, which I find really fascinating because they made, they make, you'll see them.

1:03:08Ben Hanlin: If ever you go to a shop, next to all the Cadbury's, next to all the chocolate bars are grenade bars. And this guy is a bloke from Birmingham. He literally is at the same gym as me around the corner. He's lifting slightly heavier weights. I think he's got his own gym now. and he came up with this idea and he made this chocolate company that I think at one point was selling more chocolate bars than Cadbury's or something ridiculous like that. I need to go and do my research. But how do you do that? How do you come up with this idea and then take on Cadbury's and now he's actually sold to Mondelez who own Cadbury's?

1:03:38Ben Hanlin: So I've got no idea how that conversation is going to go, but I'm really excited to find out how a chocolate company or a protein company like that takes over the world. So that's just one of the guests. We've got other people as well. I'm in the talks with as well, which are happening, which I'm going to tell you in the coming weeks. But there we go. And as I've said, I'm really excited by Substack. So if you've listened to this after Tuesday or Wednesday, go and find my Substack. It's probably in the show notes. It'll be on my link, any of my social media. If you click on the link in the bio, there'll be a link to the Substack there.

1:04:09Ben Hanlin: And come and get involved in the Substack community. As always, I'm loving making these and I'm loving hearing all your DMs and comments. I'll see you all next week here on What's the Trick?