E146: Helius CEO: Why Your Crypto Balance Isn't Private (And Why That's Dangerous)

0:28So you have a portfolio of long-term. shape crypto's next frontier. What is Zcash? Explain to your young Slavic girlfriend. If you have cash in your pocket, well, you put it on the internet and you made it secret. I don't know how much you have. You don't know how much I have, but we can pay each other. We can store our money in there. And that's really it. Connectivity and reflexivity. Can you explain why they're so important to understand? Connectivity is a very simple concept. It's the internet connected information. So in a connected system like the internet, what ends up dominating is speed.

0:55If I see a dot point because somebody tweeted it, I can easily press one button on my wallet and easily direct funds to it. And now if everybody does that, that's reflexivity. It's this positive feedback loop. It's why things go up much faster now. And it's also why things go down much faster. How did you build one of the most credible personal branding crypto that can literally move prices? The thing that I optimize for other than meditating on death is being able to sleep at night. And if I have done something that compromises my integrity or I lied and I can't sleep. Let's talk about your portfolio core holdings.

1:24Zcash, Solana, Bitcoin, Hype. You're very vocal about Zcash specifically. Why?

1:35Hi everyone. This is the little bit that I know none of you like that can help us make a huge difference for this show and we want to take it next. 71 % of the people who regularly watch When Shift Happens have not subscribed. And so all I'd ask you if you want to make a huge difference is the following if you've seen this show before and you like it help me help my team hit the subscribe button and we'll continue to build this show for you thank you think about the penguins more than the nice cast card tell me tell me about that uh gold card i i saw you you don't have chilling one i saw you shooting one online a couple of weeks ago oh no this is the uh this is not the real one well it's not the full gold yeah i have the full gold one tell me about the full gold tell me what cast is cast is a company that lets you send stables and then spend them as a visa card but i think they're going for the luxury market premium yeah like i mean they gave me this tom ford wallet yeah i think it's tom ford for guys and girls is a I don't remember oh wait you were there at the at the event I was there but we met briefly yeah but I had to leave because I had a 16 podcast to record yes busy man all right we good yeah we're good what do you do with this gold card do you use it I have used it now it's worth a lot more than a few weeks ago that's true I was talking to my girlfriend actually I was like I really should have bought you more gold stuff when we had the time because now We're not buying any of it.

3:17Tell me about that girlfriend. You have a girlfriend, but not any type of girlfriend. You have a Slavic girlfriend. I have one too. There's a saying in finance. There are three ways men go broke. Liquor, leverage, and Slavic ladies. how do you turn a slavic girlfriend into a superpower instead of one way to broke dome well it's it's a it's a forcing function of life in some sense it's it's as if you are in the in the wild jungle and there's a lion coming after you and you need to know how to run fast and it's it's very similar to a slavic uh girlfriend where if you don't make money there's gonna be problems so I mean they're like obviously I'm playing a little bit they're generally quite loyal and understanding especially if they're from let's say the native land as opposed to being Americanized but they know their worth so to speak and much more so than other dating experiences I've had let's say how different is that?

4:33Because you said they know their worth, but for me, what I've been really struggling with is that worth is translated into money and expensive stuff. Like it's, I mean, I'm Swiss, right? It's like I'm from the Western countries. Yeah. I'm very generous, but still I'm not used to that, right? Yes, yes. I struggled with the same thing. It's not a money thing. It's more of a symbolic thing where it's like, why is it manifesting in this way? it seems a little, I'm not going to use any words here, but it seems a little weird. And then I think, you know, if you try to imagine what it would be like if you were a woman, okay?

5:16So as a man, like, what do you want from a woman, right? And generally speaking, men put much more emphasis on the looks of a woman, but also youth and kindness and all these different aspects. Men don't care if the woman is richer than them or has less money than them. When Jordan Peterson wasn't on drugs, he had some good points around this, which is men marry across and below social hierarchy. And women, obviously, since they're more vulnerable, they need to marry across and above, right? They need some provider. And I think it's not so much the amount spent. It's much more the willingness to spend that money.

6:12So, for example, if your income is, you know,$50 ,000 a year, that's fine. you'll still have to spend a lot of that income but it's not necessarily about the thing as much as it's about they're willing to actually do it so it's kind of like this weird signaling mechanism now of course there are ones that don't fit this right i'm not saying all women are actually understanding there are also ones that are just like give me all your fucking money right so obviously it's on you to find somebody who is actually going to be there even if the money was not right uh so don't want to generalize too much but i think it's more of a signaling thing for the ones that are actually legit and i think there's a good biological imperative for it yeah but it is quite i mean so i'm eastern right i'm from turkey turkish women are also like this in america it's way different i mean in america guys talk about potentially splitting bills and And it's like, whoa, you would get killed for that anywhere east of Europe, basically.

7:17So it means that the more money you make, the more money you have to spend on that girl. That's the logic. That's the logic, which I don't understand. Yeah. The more absolute amounts you have to spend, but I think the relative percent can be the same. You know what I mean? So if you're making$50 ,000 a year and you spend, let's say, 40 % of your income on the partner. Okay, if you make a billion, you're still going to have to spend the 40%. That's the thing I don't understand. Right. And it's like, it's how they measure some part of, is this guy actually interested in me? Are they, you know, willing to sacrifice such and such?

7:54Because I'm willing to sacrifice, you know, my body to give birth and all these. So they have all these different, and I don't pretend to understand them by any means. I'm certainly not an expert on this, but. You're learning every day. I am learning, yes. You're in the trenches, in the Slavic trenches. Yes. I will say, though, since I've, so my girlfriend today, who is my first Slavic girlfriend, will be the only one because I don't, I think, I think, I think this is the one, so to say. um i will say though that mentality shift has made me more oriented towards capturing some of the value i create interesting right so it actually has been positive for me even though there are obvious costs so it means you're selling you're taking profits I am not so with investments I have a very long time horizon I generally don't sell investments unless I really need it or if I think a thesis has played out what I will say though is when I'm approaching business deals so contracts or when I'm even thinking of building new products I'm much more inclined to now think okay we created all this value but why are we not capturing it right like it's it's like there is there's a love of the game that you have as a builder but then people take advantage of that okay yeah and so with this new let's say partner behind me i'm kind of like i'm not necessarily gonna let anybody take advantage of me here right and i posted this video on on twitter of chamath of all people where he goes to Stanford Business School and he has this great line where he says - It's from like 2018 or 19, right?

9:48Yeah. Where he says, you know, get the fucking money, right? Because I'm going to get it. Other people are going to get it. And you have a moral imperative to go and get it so that you can influence the future with your ideas, but also capital.

10:08Week one. I want to thank our partners who help us make this show possible. I'd like to thank our friends at Jupiter, the most used decentralized trading platform on Solana and the largest DAO in the world. Thank you to our friends at Paradex. It's official Perps DEX season and we've teamed up with Paradex, the leading perpetual decentralized exchange with zero fees, deep liquidity and privacy. Their season two runs through the end of January, so you do not want to miss that one. In addition, their flagship NFT collection drops in Q4 this year and we're giving you a chance to get one. Supply is limited, so hurry up and use the link below to get on the waiting list.

10:44And last but not least, thank you to the awesome team at Castcard, my go-to card to spend my stable coins directly with my Apple Pay to buy anything, food, coffee, hotel night, or plane tickets without having to use a bank ever again. Yeah. I mean, I watched this video many years ago because I was and I'm a big fan of Chamath, obviously. he's one of the reasons I got into Bitcoin in late 2018 early 2019 actually and but I still realized during that video I was like this guy is like is angry and actually he came out later on and said actually like I was kind of like in a bad place mentally when I went to Stanford and I did that but actually it's true you need to know your worth that's for sure and if you're dating someone who knows her worth and is doesn't care about going for it, then it can inspire you.

11:40And also you have to go and capture that money. Otherwise you go broke. For sure. How is your health doing? My health? Well, let's see. The last time we recorded this was a year ago. I just moved into Dubai. I would say quite a bit better. I've lost weight, unwanted weight. I feel, I was actually off coffee, mostly speaking. I'm now back on it and it's crazy I'm about at least double more productive which is pretty crazy

12:18I had the eating problem where I'm not able to swallow certain solid foods that's gotten a little bit better it's still not fixed by any means but I think it's going to be a long grind but it is getting better yeah what's interesting is you see the you see people online the grind the success there's probably a lot of envy from people but you don't see all the shit that's happening behind the scene that everyone is normal everyone has problems sometimes big problems and that they just learn to deal with them right yeah 100 % like I just fly around the world I'm sick very often all these planes all this podcast i'm just like kind of fucked all the time but people don't see that they're like oh this guy is doing well it's just interviewing all these big guys you were building a company you're doing a trillion different thing at the same time people like this dude is like a fucking legend but they don't know what your life actually looks like it is very hard and you always this is one of those things where you never really know until you do it it's what elon musk has all these videos and they're all basically saying entrepreneurship is awful in some sense you know it's he says it's like chewing glass and staring into the abyss right that's a serious sentence but then you watch it on youtube and you're like eh how bad could it really be it's not like i'm building space companies but then you actually do it and then you're like okay holy shit i have no time there's a billion problems everybody's coming for me there's competitors there's only finite time there's only finite money i have employees i have employees there are there are people who are grifting who you still have to compete against and win by the way it doesn't matter if they're grifting nobody cares right you have to win the honorable way otherwise you also become like them so there's all these different things that are happening and then you know you can't just have the same social life anymore you can't have the same family life either right you can probably have at least two things one is going to be work and two is going to be whatever you decide maybe it's going to the gym all the time maybe it's having a really good relationship with your with your kids or something i don't have any but you're not going to get a third unless you want to sacrifice some work stuff and the earlier you are the more impossible that becomes who are you who am i uh i would say i am somebody who really likes creating and building things that are hopefully around after I'm gone in some sense.

15:20I just like to build things that I think, because it's sort of a, by definition, what we call tautological, right? Which is to say, if I existed, but then I went to the grave with some potential energy still inside and I didn't die empty, so to speak, right? There was still things inside.

15:49Then the philosophical question is, did you actually live, right? Did it actually matter or were you just some vessel for carrying around this potential that never actually realized? And if that's the case, that in my view is quite depressing, right? Like every night, I will, maybe every night is a little too excessive for most people, but I do this because I've had a lot of death in family and in close relationships. And every night, not even on purpose, but it just comes to me, which is like, okay, if you were to die next week or something, did you do all the things that you could be doing? And so to answer the the question of who am I?

16:31I'm just somebody who's trying to build things that I think are gonna be useful on a very long time horizon. You're a builder, but you're also an investor. Probably try to also apply the same principle in your investment thesis. What are the things that matter? I mean, where do you vote with your money and your time? Obviously that's kind of the key thing as an investor. Let's talk about your portfolio core holdings. Zcash, Solana, Bitcoin, hype. You're very vocal about Zcash specifically. Why? Well, so there's a short version of this and there's a long version of it. I would say perhaps the medium version of it was something like around ECC Brussels, vessels actually when when i was in belgium or slightly before then uh i was i was with a few friends and we were in this summit so to speak and it was you know people in biotech and people in longevity people in crypto people in math physics all these different types very smart people and and they were working on zk tech and and all these impressive things and obviously I was there and I was working, I still am working on, you know, RPCs and Solana and all this stuff.

18:08And, but more broadly working in crypto, right? Nobody else there was really working in crypto. And I basically asked myself like, wait a minute, like the stuff that we're doing in crypto, how important is it relative to these things? And, you know, they'll say comparison is the the thief of old joy and whatnot. But it's like, it is good to have some benchmark on the impact of the work you're doing, right? If it's always going to just be, well, I helped the trenches in Solana or something, it's like, look. What's the point? In some sense, the things that go into that are important for other things, right?

18:45So the rails that you build for internet markets are going to be important for trading gold and all these other things. But you do got to look at reality and be like, okay, this is not today having the impact that I want it to have. and today does matter the future matters too but so does today anyway i go to uh ecc brussels and i'm still struggling with this question of what are all these people really building and then trump gets shot in the ear right so people thought he was dead at that point but then in that very brief uh few hours let's say he gets shot and i'm like jesus christ like that this is some serious shit and all that really shocked me into having some paradigm shift in my view where it was like okay what are the things that are still the biggest problems in crypto and i do think there are roughly a few big problems but one of them was for scale and internet capital markets right like how do you evolve capitalism how do you evolve all markets such that they're not dominated by fink or or or some global you know regime um or or local regime and so and then and then you have other internet capital markets you have store of value sovereign money sovereign store of wealth right so something like a bitcoin but then i i thought to myself there's actually a third unsolved problem which people have talked about it's not like i discovered this which is to say you are taking everything from the analog age to the internet age in terms of finance but in every technology that you've done this with right with http there's https you're encrypting your information at least um with with with with with but then now you're putting all these stable coins and rwa is on chain but then there there are all people don't understand this but you can freeze any stable most stable coins by a central entity you can then surveil all the people who use it and you then combine this because i'm canadian with things like the truckers in canada who are getting their wealth their their their children everything sees because their financial activity and then i'm like okay zk based privacy is an unsolved problem but it has to work right and then i went this down i went down this huge rabbit hole and you know i'm looking at zcash i'm looking at the others and then you see like in the zcash forms or the bitcoin forms uh way back in the day when satoshi was still around you have messages of satoshi himself saying i wish i'm paraphrasing that he wishes he could have added encrypted uh zk proofs to make bitcoin anonymous hal finney also says this andrea says this all the core og cypherpunks say this and so then i'm like okay this is clearly a mission that's extremely important for freedom sovereignty and also for crypto to actually not be dystopian right and then so i started actually playing around with this idea since then if you look at my past tweets um I basically will have like a weird one-liner, two-liner on privacy and insorventy every week or so until very recently.

22:11So it's been happening for a year. And then Charlie Kirk got shot. And this time, it wasn't just an ear thing. I literally saw the video of him getting, and like I'm wearing a shirt right now, for example. And I'm not like some right-wing person or I don't even care too much about American politics. it's much more that this is a guy who's promoting ideas sure he does it aggressively but whatever it's still ideas he's not punching anybody in the face um and then i'm like okay this stuff is serious like these people are actually they will do whatever it takes and by they i don't mean like some weird secret shadow organization but i just mean people who disagree with you will use their power to harm you in some way and then i say okay well privacy is like really really important and really slept on um and i basically just kept posting about that what's the link between privacy and people getting shot or big people getting shot how can privacy solve or help or prevent this kind of tragic event to happen so privacy is one tool needed for for an individual to have sovereignty and freedom.

23:26It's not the only thing, right? You're not going to become sovereign just because you hit everything or whatnot. But it is one tool in the grander scheme of things, right? You're not going to be able to, for example, you're not going to be able to,

23:51there's a lot of things you're not allowed to do depending on where you are from in the world. And you should have at least the choice of disclosing whatever you need to disclose to while being legal, obviously. Otherwise, you have created this new reality where you basically ask the government and the feds, here buy my bag so that i get rich oh but the price is that my children and everybody on going forward will not have individual choice right it's it's it's kind of like the fifth amendment in the states which is to say if somebody like searches you or something um you you can you know what do they say you have the right of silence right you can you can actually just as a person with dignity you can disclose what you need to disclose and then actually have a rational discourse in a court of law or something but if people are forcing stuff out of you you don't have choice and if you don't have choice you don't have freedom if you don't have freedom that's not like just this slogan thing freedom without it capitalism also doesn't work right if you have involuntary information seizure if you have information being used against you and all these different things then capitalism also does not work like there's a reason

25:20why even in the traditional system of banks, only the bank knows, which is still not good. But like in crypto today, when you make a payment - Everyone knows. Not just, yeah, everybody. And like, just think about this, right? Think about cancel culture. In social media, people will dig up a post you made as a joke, as a teenager, and cancel you forever for it. What happens if now they can see your financial activity? yeah that's fucked of course this dude has so much money I can charge him 10 times more for the same shit yeah absolutely what is Zcash explain to your young Slavic girlfriend Zcash is imagine if you have cash in your pocket but you put it on the internet and you made it secret such that I don't know how much you have you don't know how much I have but we can pay each other we can store our money in there and that's really it now if you are not my slavic girlfriend but you are a crypto person or somebody a bit more sophisticated let's say it's uh it's an all one proof of work fair distributed over eight years everybody down horrendous if you look at the chart all the basically if you're still in that community you're insane like you're literally crazy I think I read, I don't know if it was a joke, but I read that one time, long time ago, one Zcash was worth like 2 ,000 Bitcoin or something.

26:50I mean, it's probably not true because I think Zcash went to like 2 or 3k, right? Like the first - Maybe 10 Bitcoin or whatever. Yeah, there's like a meme, like one Zcash is like 7 Bitcoin.

27:04So yeah, the history of the project, I think is not, it's really interesting because there's a lot there. so some of the history i think is like pretty bad but then some of it is like very interesting they are the first guys to have zk which is a tech that's going to power most of crypto in the future and even maybe most technology in general they're the first guys who deploy it live and it's been functional this whole time right like zk proves they're not theoretical they were the ones who made it a reality um and it's been battle tested it's a fork of bitcoin and in terms of tokenomics and the emission curves and all these different things.

27:43So yeah, it's basically, I mean, it's an L1, proof of work. It's Bitcoin, but private. Now the Bitcoin people get salty at this and they think, oh, well, you know, how dare you even mention us in name? But it's like, it's just an analogy, right? It's not going to be like Bitcoin does on the same network effects. There's different scalability upgrades coming to the L1, which are going to be quite different. but fundamentally the concept is store value sovereign money that's not you know backed by some government except private that's it week one i want to thank our partners who help us make this show possible thank you treasure my favorite cold wallet to store my crypto and make sure i sleep well at night if you want to order a treasure wallet and sleep well at night too you can use my promo code WSH10 to get a 10 % discount.

28:34Big thank you to Bitwise Asset Management for backing today's conversation. Bitwise is a crypto specialist asset manager with more than$15 billion in client assets across 30 plus crypto solutions, including ETFs, index funds, alpha strategies, staking, and more. However you like to invest in crypto, Bitwise has something for you. Thank you to our friends at SWE for supporting this show. SWE is a scalable layer one blockchain that's fast, secure, and affordable, built by previous Facebook developers, and that delivers the benefits of Web3 with the ease of Web2. Thank you to Story Protocol, the IP layer of the internet, for supporting today's conversation.

29:13Story is building an open system for creators to register, manage, and grow their IP on-chain. Whether you're building words, stories, or characters, Story Protocol gives you the tools to protect and expand your creative universe. To support this show, please check the sponsor links in the description down below. What's your thesis on hype and hyperliquid? Right. So I think there's two big PMFs in crypto. One is the store of wealth, store of value thing that I said. And I think Bitcoin and Zcash will be that. And then I think there's the other one of internet capital markets, right? Internet trading, right?

29:52We take, you took videos, you took content, put them on the internet. you get youtube you take shopping you put on the internet you get shopify amazon you take streaming dvds put on the internet you get netflix now you take markets you put them on the internet and you get solana okay now i do think though that the market of internet capital markets is by definition gigantic right you want to be able to trade all markets no matter who you are from anywhere in the world, 10 ,000 markets in your pocket, be able to compose between them, achieve financial freedom, put your money where your mouth is, right?

30:36Prediction markets, all these different things. I think that that's going to be basically the future of how the internet evolves. But that's a huge category. And I don't think one actor is going to capture like 100%. That's just not possible. So if you just make the rational argument that, hey, look, let's look at all the industries that have ever existed and it's always Pareto efficient meaning there's two to three people who capture 80 90 of the value so I know Salon is going to be one right otherwise I wouldn't build my entire company on it and so then I look okay what's going to be the second one and in my experience actually through trying to list Zcash on exchanges and all these different things and talking to people there in Singapore and whatnot and actually just using the product i basically said okay this actually at first i was quite skeptical because it seems to sacrifice a good amount of crypto native ideals such as you know decentralization and some whatnot but then it's like solana used to also do that and i trusted them in some sense to decentralize over time and it's like but i'm being i'm being a maxi here and i'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt, even though I gave myself the benefit of the doubt.

31:56And it's like, I'm not sure if that's fair. Now, to be clear, I'm still not fully, fully convinced they're going to be able to keep the same product quality if they fully decentralize or something. But it's unclear to me they need to fully decentralize, right? So for example, if they're in Tokyo right now, in terms of the validator set, perhaps they can be in Hong Kong and then maybe another jurisdiction. and so maybe it's not like extremely decentralized but it is decentralized and so then I'm like okay I think that's worth the team can execute and then most importantly there are organic teams building around it that remind me kind of of what I was doing for Solana back in the day which is like I'm trying to get people to build on Solana but then there's people reaching out to me trying to get me to build on Hyperliquid and I'm like interesting I haven't seen that from competent people in many other ecosystems very true yeah i was watching a video the other day and jeff was saying yeah jeff the founder of hyper liquid he was saying people always say or think we're 11 people right but that's very misleading there's all these teams that are building on the top of us that count as part of the team and the people they managed to attract some people that have been in the space for 12, 13 years building key part of the infrastructure of Hyperliquid which means that it's serious for sure.

33:28So you have a portfolio of long-term so these ones basically is long-term hold for you? Yes. How do you look at that? You just whatever bear market, bull market I don't care just Yes. So I think every investment I make is going to be at least a three-year five-year time horizon and unless something happens that really makes me update my priors which by the way it's not if the market crashes by 80 that does not invalidate my thesis something fundamental needs to change right so for example somebody nuked somebody okay and then that changed global world order immensely something like that otherwise yes they're all long-term thresholds uh i don't people do all this sort of retarded shit where they're like so when i was showing zcash i was showing it since 28 by the way and then went to 280 and people are like oh well this is the top because it went up already it's like that's a ridiculous way to think okay that means you are only thinking in extremely short time horizons the way i do it is i look you have to do a lot of research i look at the tech i look at the community i look at the history all these different things.

34:37What are the risks? What are the threats existentially? And then you arrive at some valuation of what you think it should be worth. And then you, one, compare it against similar things. And then you derive from first principles what you think it could be worth if such and such conditions are met. And then you ask yourself, is this undervalued, properly valued, or overvalued? If it's undervalued, I'm going to keep allocating to it until it meets that valuation. It's that simple. Yeah. That's what people do with Bitcoin, digital gold, normal gold, comparison, obviously. It's also what they do with stocks, right?

35:14I'm not sure why crypto is so different. Yeah, absolutely. The reason why you're saying, oh, it's the top and kind of go crazy when something goes up 5, 10x or when something goes down back 70 % is because it's crazy volatile. And this is because of what you called connectivity and reflexivity. Ah, yes. Can you explain these concepts and can you explain why they're so important for crypto investors to understand? Yes, okay. So this is my favorite concept to think about. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to articulate it well, but I'll try. So, and I stole this from Nassim Taleb or let's say I was heavily inspired by him.

35:57So there is this theory or this thesis today that's really appealing to everybody, which is to say, well, the global world order is collapsing. You only have such and such time to escape the permanent underclass. You have to hyper gamble to get your way out of this. All the kids are now TikTok brain rotted and they must gamble. You have all these like theories to basically describe the same thing that's happening, which is people speculating and narratives taking over fundamentals, right? That's essentially what's happening. You might call it a bubble, AI bubble, which I think is correct, by the way.

36:34However, as a technical person, you then ask yourself, like, did human psychology really just change that much? Or is there something much simpler going on on a technical level, on a physics level even? So my bio on Twitter is actually physics, privacy, poetry, which is to say I really like physics. I obviously like privacy. And I like poetry, meaning shitposting in some sense. okay and so okay what is the concept okay well connectivity is a very simple concept it's not about crypto it's about information being connected so for example when covid happened imagine airplanes didn't exist okay how far is that virus going to connect if it cannot travel anywhere except its local let's say bat market or whatever it was okay it's not going to travel right the the plague back in the day took years to propagate with covid it was like a week okay and that's because the world is much more connected right one person gets the virus flies back goes to a conference infects everybody those people are connected to all the different regions in the world and you get all this thing uh it's the the internet is the connectivity technology right so before information would be local right you would maybe have some rumor and maybe you would be on a local newspaper and all this stuff.

37:56And then maybe within a few days, it would maybe propagate up to the national newspapers or something. And as a result, obviously, you know, assume that it's a CEO of some company in the 1900s and he says something stupid. Is that going to affect the global stock prices? Probably not, right? Because it's only going to be very local. People from the other markets in the world aren't even going to see it, right? Like, is it going to reach China, for example? Probably not. however with the internet the internet connected information and also people right with social media one intuitive way of understanding this is fake news right this this this fake news contagion and and this this you know clickbait titles all these are the same thing which is to say information is much easier to spread than it is to verify right so there's a something called brandolini's law which is to say the energy required to refute bullshit is much higher than the energy required to create it right you can just say things and people if they're like if they confirm some bias that they have they'll just accept it as true and this is physics by the way right because if something sounds good you can easily just look at it spread it but if you want to verify it you need to do some thinking so in a connected system like the internet what ends up dominating is speed right whatever contagion moves the fastest because people spread stuff faster than they verify it that speed ends up dominating the entire system right macchiaff's law uh networks are exponentially connected not linearly connected okay hope you're with me so far okay so what crypto does is it takes that information but it turns it into money and value meaning now money spreads faster than you can verify the fundamentals of that money when you mean money spreads you mean the expansion or kind of retraction of a network or price?

40:09I mean, yeah. So price will be the final indicator of this, but it's flows, right? For example, if I see a Dockcoin because somebody tweeted it, I can easily press one button on my wallet and easily direct funds to it. And now if everybody does that because they see me doing it, then it's this feedback loop such that, okay, wait a minute, this thing is going to go up because it is already going up, which is also going to cause other people to now ape in. And so that's reflexivity. It's this positive feedback loop that is unbounded from reality. And it's why things go up much faster now. And it's also why things go down much faster.

40:49A great example is when Bloomberg, during the China-Trump negotiations, Bloomberg said, Trump just struck a deal with China. but that was not a true story and they retracted it five minutes but before they did that 2.5 trillion dollars was added to the stock market from one typo on bloomberg and then they said oh actually this didn't happen and then it went right back down again 2.5 trillion dollars that's an entire that's bitcoin's entire market cap okay and so that's the world we live in today and people have not woken up to this, but there are signs, right? So for example, these extreme price swings now, people think, you know, prediction markets and perps and meme coins are all like these different things.