E151: Polygon Founder: How I Escaped Extreme Poverty and Built a $30 Billion Crypto Company

0:00I refuse to play for the mediocrity. Either I will make Polygon something, Polygon's technology has the potential to go to global scale, either we'll fight for that or we crash and run, I don't care. What needs to be achieved for you to consider Polygon a winner? I want to be at a place where... Sandeep Nalwal, the founder of Polygon. One of the most adopted blockchains and the creator of Aglea. He leads the Polygon Foundation and also co-founded Sentient and Blockchain for Impact. Explain Polygon to your mom. Polygon is a bank where nobody else owns your money. You own directly on your app. She really doesn't own the money, it's the bank, and bank can any time shut her down.

0:35Here, if she doesn't lose her key, it's her who owns that money. What happened in your life that made you so hungry for success? Both of my grandfathers were servants in somebody's house. My house was actually smaller than this room. Five people living in that room and then there is a kitchen. Maybe that's where the chip on the shoulder comes from. Tell me about that time in your philanthropic journey where you found the most happiness. I tweeted this, that tweet went viral. A lot of people started donating. I thought that I will get like maybe$1 million. People started donating. It went to 3, 4, 5, 10, 12.

1:08Vitalik donated$1 billion in Shiba Inu coin. We thought that it was going to be 10K. We ended up taking like$470 million. Just from Shiba,$470 million. Yeah,$12 ,70 million. Polygon recently hired the previous head of crypto of one of the biggest payment companies in the world, Stripe, as Polygon Chief Product Officer. Why? I mean...

1:58Thank you. This is also your sponsor? Yeah, Cast Card. These guys here. They're stable coins. You spend your stable coins. Becoming a crypto bank. But the first function was to just spend your stable coins, right? Apple Pay, boom, done. Which sounds very simple, but it's just life-changing if you don't have to off-ramp. Yeah. I was a very early Revolut and Monzo user, 2015-16, because I lived in London for three years, and it just started at that time, right? Oh. And after that, I never had more than$200 on a normal bank account. I was just using Monzo and Revolut. At some point, like you're...

2:35I mean, for me, I travel so much all the time since 10 years. You too, right? You're like, okay, this Revolut, Monzo stuff is a no-brainer. And then when you start to do crypto and the entire life or business is paid in stablecoins, what's the next iteration? It's basically this kind of Revolut on chain, right? Which Cast is one of them. There's a bunch of others, obviously. and so no brainer just double tap pay boom boom boom so good so good so simple yeah fees are a bit too high still at the moment but i don't care paying fees if the product is just like so useful how are you doing very good very good did you survive the traffic dubai traffic i did not without going crazy i did not

3:23without going crazy i was uh i was in the uber with the driver i was like hey do you have some data and he's like no which i never heard that before right no no no then i'm like okay let me buy you some data for 30 bucks because i need freaking data right because for me he was not working so i bought him like 30 dollars worth of data and have this data for the month just for me to be able for 45 minutes to be doing some stuff i was like okay it's the tip you know He just tipped me 30 dollars. Yeah. I was talking with your team the other day. They told me that no matter what time it is of the day, you answer all the time in seconds, which means that you don't sleep.

4:01It is not a good thing. You don't sleep much. Yeah. I mean, no, I do sleep, but then, you know, my mind is always plugged in at Polygon. But we started or we are? We're done. Yeah, we're live. Oh, we're live. We're live. I didn't even realize. Organic start. I had a Paolo from Tether and he told me since 11 years he's been sleeping five hours a night and every one hour he wakes up to check notification because of Bitfinex not because of and so I mean I've never used something that crazy but like you're probably not too far from that if you answer to anyone people based in the US whatever time it is 3am in the morning I mean Paolo has a much bigger ship to run has always been so I'm also good friends with Paolo and he's he's also you know amazing amazing guy like what do you call like amazing crazy guy he's so logged into the vision that you know what he wants to do like he like Tether people like you know even though a lot of people we keep talking about a lot of you know shit about like whether like Tether this that this SNP rating and all that but I think I have not seen like the whole team of Tether like small team but everybody is like they really believe in the ethos of blockchain they want like you know a sovereign currency and you know a monetary system for individuals so that's why like you know no doubt that you know they are the ones who are getting all this success now it's like a religion you talk to the guy he's like actually a religion it's like did he also come in that you know the track pants with you in the t-shirt yeah exactly that's his signature he was track pants t-shirt on shoes yeah yeah yeah right on shoes and Garmin watch and actually had some people from from our team where 10 people in when shift happens and we're in the studio like i can't believe this guy is worth like whatever soon probably 100 billion dollars right and just there with tether t-shirt and his truck pants and he's always like he's going they don't care right even in the like very uh you know new york wall street kind of settings where all you have all these big you know bank and bankers around with all these blazers and suits and all that they're also like he's also like that he was really i mean we were probably the same right You're wearing this a whoop.

6:17And you have the charger of the whoop right on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How much have you been using that? Yeah, I've been using pretty extensively. I think this is, you know, I had, I was actually almost getting a chance to invest in the company at 3.2 billion valuation, which I thought like it's already very big. And Aura was, Ring was very big and all that. And I had not used it. And once I started using it, and then it kind of spread virally around me also. and then I realized oh man like I should have invested because this is a hundred billion dollar company there's no doubt like this is so much better than any other any other system like this I've used any other device I've used like this what does the sleep score say sleep score is not great like even and I have a three and a half year old son right so I would many times like I actually what has happened is that I worked US hours right so I literally like you know my real work actually before that I get some time to do on my you know for my own stuff some deep work and all that but like it from 2pm onwards it starts and it goes to like 11, 12, 1am and then I sleep at around 2 to 30 and then sometimes my son wakes up at 7, 7.30 and then you know he will start saying something and we Indians have a we actually don't believe in that you know that sleep training and you let the kid cry in a separate room and he sleeps separately and all that he sleeps with me and my wife only and sometimes with us sometimes with his grandparents and you know we Indians again like we like to live with the whole family so I have my parents also live with me everyone is there these days my sister and you know my brother-in-law and they also have a young kid so we have a nice village going on there nice and so sometimes he sleeps with us sometimes so many times in the morning he will wake up at 7.30 and then he's saying something cute and then I like I said like screw the sleep and then i start playing with him so that also is like you know sometimes is leading to five hour four hour sleeps yeah you mentioned kids family and you mentioned before um paulo tether all these guys like kind of like a religion what is your mission my my mission is this uh what i call it like sovereign individual right so a lot of people the people in crypto, you know, want to build the monetary system.

8:44I believe that the free monetary system for the individual where they can, you know, do whatever they want with their wealth, wherever they want and all that. I believe in the sovereignty of the individual because I think that beyond money, so money is actually a product of civilization, right? And civilization is actually built on top of this layer of controlled violence, which is called law and order, right? So you have the army securing the borders, then the government is there and now the money comes into play, right? And we are trying to right now do a global money, Bitcoin. But I feel that, you know, that's a large part of, you know, human sovereignty.

9:23But eventually I feel that the real true borderless world, like if you need to go there, you need to disrupt the borders. And borders are not disrupted by money only. They're disrupted by, you know, know, disrupting the layer of control violence, this law and order in a positive way. So I long term, I feel that, you know, there should be decentralization at that level. And now it's actually possible. It might sound very wacky, but actually if you can have like a drone or robot based police system, which is run, you know, which is run by an AI, but that AI is decentralized control, not controlled by one single party, that is one single, you know, company.

10:04but eventually imagine you are able to create a you know a brain which is controlled by whole of humanity or large number of uh of humanity and that has the constitution that this is how you should be guarding everyone then the law and order is provided by that you know policing force and then you can really disrupt the border so true sovereignty that's why like you know i am um you know one of the co-founders of uh the sentient AI which has other three co-founders they work full time on that like I have a lot going on at Polygon but you know somewhere deep down that's the goal Xantian specializes in this you know alignment alignment of AI with humanity eventually we want to take it to governance and control which is external to the to the model so yeah so that's the sci-fi but hopefully I'm able to you know go deeper into that you know once Polygon is more stable and you know this whole crypto space is more stabilized.

11:01Because only now in crypto space, we are only now we are getting into the real utility space. Like we have had DeFi before. That's the only like real use case you can say. But apart from that, like everything is around speculation. Even DeFi, if you talk to DeFi teams, they'll tell you like 70, 80 % of all the lending, borrowing, everything is around leverage only. Like people want to leverage, loop this thing. So only now with this stable coins, payments, remittances, global payments, some real stuff is happening with the blockchains. So, you know, I really want to be, I've been part of this revolution for last eight years.

11:35So I want to give my maybe 10, 15 more years, see through, see this revolution through so that this becomes mainstream. And then I'll see. Who are you, Mautrins? Who are you? I am, like, as I said, I am a global citizen who wants to be, who wants to have full sovereignty. I'm a, you know, very law-abiding citizen. and I expect everybody to abide by the law, but they should have an option to, you know, kind of exit. It's not like Balaji's network states, you know, is basically one form of that, but the individual sovereignty is that part. So I also like foresee in future, like 20 years from now, 30 years, maybe not 20, 30, 40 years, you would be able to have like small space pods, which you took off, and then you don't want to be part of any system, any community, and you want to just live on your own and your space pod is your thing.

12:30And then you are somewhere, you know, roaming around in the solar system at least. And that's where you are living. And I think that needs like this monetary system, some sort of like a neutral policing system, which is not guarded by one government, but is guarded by the whole of humanity or whatever is the sentient system at that time. Like humanity, thus maybe some AI also by that time becomes sentient. it provides that you know cover for the all the sentient beings at that time I'm including AI in that also and they all can live you know as per their own rules so yeah I'm actually really big about freedom like I you know I come from India also India actually lot of people don't know but in terms of the freedom India's values core values right of course the governments keep on coming and going and different governments have had different tastes and all that.

13:26But the core fabric of Indian civilization and, you know, the culture is also very deeply around freedom. And so from there also it comes in me.

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14:19And last but not least, thank you to Mantle, A pioneering on-chain economy dedicated to revolutionizing the future of finance and blockchain scalability, and that seamlessly bridges traditional finance and decentralized finance. I mentioned you're from India. I talk to a lot of very successful people. I always try to understand what happened in their life, in their childhood, that gives them a chip on their shoulder. Why are they so hungry today? what happened in your life that made you so hungry for success and so successful today yeah that's a very I mean I am always you know exploring this also and you know I've had a very I've spoken in a lot of podcasts before that have very troubled childhood and you know I also I come from humble background I always say that when the western people say they come from humble background they have the humble background still has a you know like maybe a not so good house and then there's a not so good car and all that right but then when you know the people from emerging and that time when I was growing India was almost like a third world country so when you come from a humble background from there then it's like really tough but what actually I think like where it comes from is that my grandfathers both of my grandfather like met paternal and paternal they both were servants in somebody's house that's where they met and they decided that you know they will get their children married and all that and see how it happened and I think that but in my school days college days I always was like the top ranker in the class and all that so I would have a certain level of respect let's say in the school and wherever I will go right but my ground reality when I come back home is a very different so I remember that till very late Like, till I was like probably 21, 22, I never invited anybody to my house because I never wanted them to see my house.

16:25Like, oh, this is my reality. What did your house look like? What do people not want to see? My house was actually, was like this room that we are doing this podcast. This, this smaller than this room, actually. And five people living in that room. And then there is a kitchen. like there's no PHK like bedroom hall there's no hall there's only kitchen is 1 RK like you know this small room and 5 people living over there and that too on a on somebody's house who has 2 stories and then they build a store storehouse at the top and then they said like oh let let us earn some rent from this so then you live there and then you know in Delhi whenever I was going to go in Delhi it gets too hot in the summers and all that so and you're living on the roof right So imagine like in US houses, because, you know, the Western houses, which have like this hut kind of shape, the attic.

17:18But here you have like the flat shapes. So at the top, like you have a single room to create as a store. So that, yeah, so that was the kind of house I did not want people to see. And so maybe from there it came, maybe like there is another, you know, kind of when I was very, very young, which most of the kids don't even have memories, but I have some memories. still I was like probably five years of age and all that. My grandfather was still alive. And the guy he was servant with, like that guy actually expired, had expired. So he, you know, kind of served him till he died and all that. So then he had a guest house in Delhi.

17:57So where he made him the in charge of the guest house. So many times there is no, if there is nobody from the owner's family, sometimes my grandfather will take me because I'm the eldest, you know, child for him. like my father is the eldest and I'm the eldest in the kingdom. So I would go to that guest house someday and that was very big and all that. And you know in my childhood I would think like this is my house right. So sometimes I come back and I will talk to my you know kids around me. So

18:31I would almost think of it as that that is my house. So maybe that's where the chip on the shoulder comes from i always said i will be a big man i didn't want to play small and hated losing but i had no clue how to succeed everyone made fun of me what's your definition of a big man today

18:56actually there is no definition in my mind like it's the definition is like i would i just want to do big things i don't want to play small like this i keep saying even at polygon at uh you know today I can very easily, I could have walked off in 2022, 2023, a lot of people around me, my generation of crypto at that time, they walked off. But I actually wanted to do, you know, bigger and bigger and bigger, right? So Polygon was at like, you know, that global scale. And I wanted to see this technology go mainstream and then, you know, be a part of that, like be a part of that revolution. Build something which stands the test of time and stays there and, you know, people use it enterprises use it and I think that that has been always in my mind even now like you know at Polygon a lot of people will tell me to slow down and then you know consolidate and conserve and you know just play a small and I'm if you ask a lot of people on Twitter also I keep saying that I refuse to play for the mediocrity either like you know either I will make Polygon something or where Polygon goes somewhere right and it has a potential whether you know it's me or not but polygons technology has a potential to go to global scale either we'll fight for that or you know we crash and one i don't care but that's the only thing i'm going to fight for so that's what it means for me you said i could have easily walked off what does that mean i mean what would have would have meant in terms of whatever money for people to kind of understand like what was happening back there and also like that you're still here right yeah i mean for crypto generally like you know the lot of crypto projects these token projects we have seen the tendency that unlike in the web2 startups where you will have to grind for 5-10 years raise multiple rounds multiple times almost come close to running out of money and all that and eventually you know have a have a public listing and all that and all that right in crypto a lot of founders get early liquidity at least used to get early liquidity and all that right so that at polygon like when polygon became that massive scale in 21 22 you know we also had my co-founders and me also had some liquidity uh to get in let's say five years still a very small time i would say in in terms of the startup never in the industry you know in the traditional industry it never happens like that you said you said polygon was massive what does that mean i think it was 30 billion dollars in market cap 30 billion yeah 3-0.

21:313-0, yeah. And a lot of people take out a lot of liquidity, early team members, things like that and all that. And, you know, a lot of people had their paths diverging and all that. And not only for Polygon, I'm saying like overall the Polygon generation kind of people, right? And I could have also said that, okay, you know, I've made enough money now, I want to retire or I want to do some hobby projects and all that. But I think, you know, a lot of people in the Polygon community also believe that Polygon wants to go global. And that, you know, is kind of that promise is important for me. So I'm going to fight for it, you know, till the time it's no longer possible.

22:14You prefer to not sleep at night than chin on the beach. Yeah, I mean, I even actually have done thought experiment also. I generally, at least I try to take like, you know, one week off every end of the year in December and I generally I'm miserable after the 4th or 5th day you know it's it's it's too for me it's very hard to say title yeah how did you get so fascinated by the world of the blockchain and cryptocurrencies so I you know I've said this before also that I did not come into crypto being fascinated with Bitcoin alone right I saw Bitcoin I had seen multiple times Bitcoin I ignored it as like some sort of MLM scam initially because I thought that, you know, the currency without any backing to it was not possible.

23:07But that's the illusion has been created with the fiat currency with everyone, like let's say our generation. But then when I actually saw Bitcoin, the engineer in me said that, oh, they figured out a computer which is run by multiple people. This is a computer run by multiple people and it has only one single outcome which everyone agrees on, which is called consensus. right and this is a machine this this big computer machine it only works for payments right you know i transfer to you your your balance goes up my balance goes down and so this is a system they created amazing system but i was not like immediately drawn that yeah i should leave everything and then you know go here but i the engineer in me said to myself that what if somebody could write complex business logic in this and that's when like three four weeks six weeks later I stumbled onto Ethereum and I was like oh this is big this is big this is the thing that should go and then you know since then I never looked back yeah you said before that you live with your parents or they live with you yeah you're the co-founder of Polygon explain Polygon to your mom

24:18so my mom only studied till 5th standard so it's extremely hard but that's very good because I have some people who say actually my mom is an engineer I'm like oh fuck explain Polygon to my mom explain Polygon to your mom that's a good one yeah it's

24:36now I think it's easier to explain so I can say that you know Polygon is a bank where you own your you own your money nobody else owns your money you own directly on your app and you can spend but she's going to again ask that you know okay but I own my money on my other credit card also and all that and then I have to explain her that you she really doesn't own the money it's the bank and bank at any time shut her down here if she doesn't lose her key it's her who owns that money so that's how I would explain Polygon is eight years old yeah more or less what's the toughest moment in the eight years in the Polygon 8 years journey?

25:22The toughest moment? I think it has been like in the early days, multiple times, first one and a half years, multiple times, almost running out of money, almost then going and begging people for some money to, you know, sustain the team for three months and all that. And that time, like we were building at very low cost. So like, you know, our burn rate was 20k per month. and all that. So, you know, maybe like raising 50k and all that. Those have been tough days and then there was like 2019 December when suddenly I woke up and realized that some, you know, short trader or something looks, people say that it was Alameda and FTX at that time and they had shorted or they had done some sort of thing on the, on the polygon, on the Matic coin that time which crashed the coin by 70 % and I woke up and suddenly I have like hundreds of thousands of followers on my twitter everybody calling me scammer these people exited exits liquidity they sold all the tokens this that that was that was a very hard moment also but i think like those were individual as you ask the moments right but i would say what are what are the difficult periods right i would say like you know the that's why like the the entertainment industry or the movies have attuned us that on that moment what was happening right but the real life happens in a period right and then the toughest periods I would say that you know right now for Polygon is now and it has always been now to be honest right so you know whatever I see like okay now right now is the toughest time like it never you know like Jensen Wang said that if I knew that how hard it is I would have probably not done that I mean it's I would have still done that but it's it's sometimes like it is so it gets so hard because you have so many moving directions so many things happening at one single you know kind of before this regulatory regime like it was regulatory issues also then you have to build something you're trying to build something meaningful but the market only values speculation but you want to build your DNA my DNA is not building speculation I want to build something meaningful so it's always very tough and then you have a large team you have to still like the token prices are really bad but then in terms of our footprint globally it's expansive footprint we are working with so many enterprises and this and that so you know it's the current period I would say is the hardest period you mentioned the token multiple times token price down 70 % in 2019 everybody is there to speculate some people say I mean multiple say the token price is the best marketing if it goes up right it goes down less good throughout the years Polygon token Polygon Matic Pol had three different names yeah why I mean we were called Matic Network where we were a single chain protocol and then we migrated into this multi-chain came up with a new vision our name changed to Polygon but the token couldn't be changed at that time and we said that we will change it but then in between we never got the time and you know by the time we you know kind of reached the place where we could have actually changed it by that time the crazy speculation around matic was not there so then the conversion had even more lesser interest people are like okay you know many people maybe simply said that it's much better let me sell and you know get aside and in this conversion and all that i recently tweeted also like a lot of people keep coming to me that matic had like that og you know vibe like you know, these OG coins and all that.

29:13And, you know, we changed it to poll. So a lot of people have, like, now I intend to, you know, I'm disclosing it here. Maybe this, I now intend, I will put a poll on Twitter actually. Like, you know, I don't want to do the poll on the community forum where only few people are coming. I want to have put a public poll and let's see what people say. I don't even know whether the exchanges will allow to just update the ticker name to Matic only where it's still poll, but they update the ticker to poll. Let's see. I mean, I want the community to answer it. Right now, previously we took the answer, we took the call.

29:48But yeah, probably we should have asked this from the community itself. But problem is that at that time, nobody, even in the community, people did not, you know, kind of ask this question. Or if somebody had properly told me that, oh, the Matic brand name is so big already as an asset, you know, why do you want to upgrade it and all that? I would have thought twice. but I don't recall anybody bringing this to me. We had to upgrade the token because the previous token was like a single chain focused token. Now this token has some inflation, some way to grow the protocol for the next 10 years.

30:26And I could have had all these features and still named it Matic, right? So, yeah, that's a decision. I think that's not a good reason. And to be honest, my logical mind says that, you know, once we have changed it, like, you know, let it be poor and all that. But I think the part of me which knows these markets and these, because I've traveled far and wide for these conferences, events and all that. And I would go to many of the events and all of these, a lot of like retail people will come and talk to me. If I go by their psyche, I think like, you know, it should be problematic. but I don't know whether it's practically feasible or not now.

31:09I think it's all from the infamous 100x Matic pump. We still remember. These people hope, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure, for sure. Polygon recently hired the previous head of crypto of one of the biggest payment companies in the world, Stripe, as Polygon chief product officer. Yeah. Why? Because Polygon is fully all in onto stablecoin and payments. We are becoming like the go-to chain for payments and fit tech. We talked about Revolut, Mastercard, before that African Stripe, Flutterwave and all that. Everybody is building a Polygon because that plumbing and that whole ecosystem around for somebody to have these payments is very, very strong at Polygon.

31:51In the last six months, since this stablecoin usage has picked up and the apps are actually launching more and more, we have gone from a consistent 2.7 million transactions to 6 million transactions every day right so large part of it is coming from payments only and obviously there is polymarket which is built on polygon it's the most popular number one crypto app like imagine like if this app was on any other blockchain like there's so much of rub off effect will be going off onto the chain but for us it doesn't and so but polygon is all in on payments and and fintechs based on the stable coin economy that is being that is creating so that's why like i am almost right now as i was saying like this period is the hardest period because i am like transitioning the whole team into this crypto crypto like you know thinking from the blockchain point of view instead of that thinking from a solution point of view right there is a problem like you know moving money seamlessly across the globe, right?

32:53That is one problem statement. That is one need and Polygon should be serving that need. So that transitioning that whole team into this is basically currently going on. That is why like we onboarded John Egan from Stripe and really amazing person. And I think we are with him there. We see the direction we are moving in and we believe in it. What needs to be achieved for you to consider Polygon a winner in the blockchain payment sector category? I think like, you know, I want to be at a place where Polygon starts doing 25 to 30 million payments every day. Right now we have 6 million transactions out of that probably, I don't exactly know how many, like I should know actually this number that how many of them are only payments out of the 6 million, let's say today.

33:46but I think like somewhere around where Binance chain is already doing is already doing like 25 million transactions a day roughly and Baze does around 12 million I think that 25 to 30 million transactions is where I want to reach first but for me the goalpost will always move once I reach there I would say I would have to go to 100 million so I know but I just go you know base camp I don't want to go to Mount Everest first I want to go to the base camp right now. The base camp is 45 million. That's why the hardest moment is always now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the goal is the goal is a moving target.

34:27Yeah, the goal would be that, you know, in this stable coin based money movement, if we could be like 50 % of the market share. That's where I want to be, to be honest. Right. So right now, if you remove Ethereum, I think we would be somewhere around that mark, probably. In terms of daily active users, we would be in terms of volumes Tron actually has a lot of large money movements happening but the smaller USDC movements are you know we are the number one daily active chain for USDC users people don't realize for USDT we are number three generally every day and for non-USD stable coins LATAM we have 60-70 % market share Southeast Asia 70-80 % market share for these non-USD stable coins But that category is very small, of course, right now.

35:18But we think like that will also grow. You mentioned Polymarket before. One of the mega success stories on the Polygon blockchain. Prediction market with valued at$10 billion and probably more in the future. What's the risk of a Polymarket moving away from Polygon? See, I mean, I think like in terms of the token and price and valuation, I don't think right now Polygon gets any of that valuation or any kind of rub off effect of that right so not sure about like what happens with the valuation but I think the chain Polymarket does maybe 500k odd transactions on good days I think so out of 6 million it's a decent number but generally many days it's like 400 I don't know the exact numbers right now but like on some of the like election days and all that it was like 500k transactions and all that So it's a very healthy epicenter for a lot of stablecoin activity.

36:18So, you know, obviously it's the flagship. So it will be really painful. But I think like, you know, that's where like we take polymarkets operations also very seriously. Like if something goes wrong, we would be the ones, you know, waking up with them and, you know, kind of like fixing things through even if it's like night or day. and what has happened is that in the last six months we have had we have launched three upgrades and the second one actually created some problems and that time like you know we were guys like you know just some of the times like the chain is having some RPC issues and all that but with the recent upgrade that got in the chain has become absolutely extremely stable and the reorgs have gone down have vanished and so that's that's what makes them also very happy and the other part is like our TPS of the chain which was at the start of this year was around 200 TPS.

37:15Now we are at around we have around like 1200 to 1500 TPS and I think the end of this year oh not end of this year but in next three to six months we should be able to get go to 5000 TPS which is where then the Polygon Piers chain will almost have like Solana kind of or better than Solana TPS transaction per second capacity and then you know the plan in 12 to 24 months is the is the giga gas right so you know maybe 100k transactions per second and that's where this recent upgrade the Rio upgrade is what that enabled now it's on us to keep doing these optimizations and actually the chain we can already take it to 5000 TPS it's about the RPC providers and peripheral infra which needs faster syncing and all that and that's what we are trying to see how to make it better.

38:10Quick one. I want to thank our partners who help us make this show possible. Thank you, Treasurer. My favorite cold wallet to store my crypto and make sure I sleep well at night. If you want to order a Treasurer wallet and sleep well at night too, you can use my promo code WSH10 to get a 10 % discount. Big thank you to Bitwise Asset Management for backing today's conversation. Bitwise is a crypto specialist asset manager with more than$15 billion in client assets across 30 plus crypto solutions, including ETFs, index funds, alpha strategies, staking, and more. However you like to invest in crypto, Bitwise has something for you.