E155: SUI Network Founder: We Built What Ethereum and Solana Can't

0:00Ten years ago, we believed that in 2030, 2035 will probably be the doom day. something is going to be produced by humanity that will break the cryptographic algorithms. If you ask me now that it's 2025, I don't see this happening in the next five years. But there is a question mark here. Kostas Halkius, the co-founder and chief cryptographer at Miston Labs. With 15 plus years in cryptographic research and blockchain security. He's also the author of Hashwares, Proofs and Winterfell ZKP. You have to explain to your mom what is a cryptographer. What is cryptography? We have to understand what the word means first.

0:32It's a Greek word. Crypto in Greece means something being secret. And graph means I write. So I'm writing something in secrecy. And you know that Facebook cannot read your messages because there is some encryption. This encryption is the job of a cryptographer. What's something that most people still don't understand about the SWE network? We invested a lot in innovation. Many of the features that you see are very, very unique in the space came from SWE that eventually is the driver of all of the adoption of new tech to protect against problems of the future. I don't think this is appreciated yet.

1:02You mentioned being at Facebook and then you decided to dedicate your life to Misten Labs. So I wanted to create something by myself because otherwise, if I stayed at Facebook, the only way to shine and use my technology in real life was to acquire someone and do the same thing as I did in WhatsApp payments. So a startup like Misten is probably my only option to apply things that I do for the humanity. There is no other way. What's something you think Sui is uniquely bad at? Good question.

1:32Hi everyone. This is the little bit that I know none of you like that can help us make a huge difference for this show and we want to take it next. 71 % of the people who regularly watch When Shift Happens have not subscribed and so all I'd ask you if you want to make a huge difference is the following. If you've seen this show before and you like it, help me, help my team, hit the subscribe button and we'll continue to build this show for you. Thank you. Aircon is off. We're gonna survive. The penguin will too. Let's do it. That's good. Imagine I live in Dubai and now it's too cold for me. It's fine.

2:06Well, in Dubai you have a lot of malls, so you're probably used to it too. Maybe they're a bit less hardcore as here. You cannot imagine that some people have vitamin D deficiency because they don't go outside the sun. Even if it's hot, nobody goes out. I can imagine because I live here in Singapore and I'm not out. I'm just all the time inside working. Like all of us, I guess. Yeah, all of us. You're Greek. I'm Greek originally, yes. Yeah, so... I was born there. Well, temperature is not as hot as here, but it's during summer, I believe. Even hotter. 35, 40, sometimes. You can keep the habits of going to take some sun every day.

2:48Yeah. The Mediterranean habits. You don't do that in Dubai. I don't know. I don't enjoy Dubai because I'm not so many times outside just working. when i have time uh typically there is uh you know all of this time difference between the u.s and middle east which i need to stay and stay inside while dubai is like an all-day city all-night city never sleeps i still need to find some spare time to do that that's my problem with dubai nothing else i think the time zone is a big difference probably one of the good places to be actually in terms of time difference, because Asia is very brutal for USA, right?

3:33It's very late all the time. You go to sleep 2, 3 a.m. At the coast where, west coast, like California, imagine the time difference is pretty much half a day. It's half a day. It's half a day. Almost half a day, yeah. So basically, when you're done, they're kind of starting, right? I mean, you're not done, but when you're supposed to be done, they're starting. Exactly, exactly. And the company is quite, like because it's American-based, the headquarters are in Palo Alto. Yeah. And you know, as a co-founder also, you have to interact with the people there. Absolutely. Of course, everywhere, but there is a bit more common.

4:07Yeah, I actually went to the office. You've been there? Yeah, it's amazing. I love it. Nice. There was Adeni, there was Sam, there was Evan. When was that? Like a year ago? It was in March. March. Amazing energy in the office. I left so energized. It was amazing. Loved it. I saw on your LinkedIn, you're actually based in Palo Alto. I was based in Palo Alto until last year. Then I moved to Dubai. There were many reasons. Imagine we're five co-founders. It's quite different from other companies. So we had to spread. To not kill each other? No, it's not killing each other. You have to, because I was Greek, it was by far easier for me to go to a nearby place, like neighboring country, in pretty much the same time zone.

4:55and it helped a lot because the culture is not very different, right? I mean, you know, Eastern Europe, then you have like Middle East and then you go to the rest of Asia. I'm creating a couple of teams across Asia in general and Dubai helps in proximity. So I can fly to Vietnam, I can fly to Korea, I can fly to different places, even Europe, Eastern Europe, easier than in the US. California is too far, my friend. It's so far. I mean, I don't know. You cannot do anything. I mean, you need five hours to go to the closest different cultural place. I know, I know. I'm going back again in a couple of weeks.

5:27I'm not looking forward. Yeah. It's good to be there, especially if you're coming on some Silicon Valley company. For me, for example, it was quite a career change being at Facebook. For sure. But after a while and after you get used to it, you realize that you're losing like some parts of the world and how they're evolving because you need to travel a whole day. Also, I felt when you wake up there, like you have a trillion messages because everyone already went through their day and it's like, it's giving you so much anxiety. You're like, holy shit. I don't even want to open my eyes this morning.

6:01Whereas in Asia, it's the opposite, right? People kind of wake up when you go to sleep. Okay, whatever. I'm just going to look at this later tomorrow. True. That's why we don't sleep in California. That's where you learn. We talk about this as well. That's where you learn to not sleep, right? Yeah, I sleep with naps. I'm not kidding. I'm sleeping with naps for the last almost eight years. i'm not sleeping like fully five six hours in a row no it never happened tell me more about that so you were the winston uh churchill of crypto um i'm trying do you know why why i tried all of these things is i had a professor uh back in greece this was later on the 2001 2002 where he was a mathematician and he told me the trick of whenever you have a problem just don't sleep well maybe by the time you wake up randomly or suddenly you will find the solution so I literally exercised this this way of thinking and I had four or five ideas from my PhD came from subsleeping and I followed this practice for a moment it's not healthy nobody should do it by the way but at the same time in some short periods it's helping a lot even in SUI if you can see some of the innovations we have happened because randomly i woke up during night and if you see my wall i do have some markers and very quickly i grab the marker and i try to write in the wall i have like a small whiteboard sometimes i'm even writing i wrote a couple of times in the in my wife's neck because you don't i mean you wake up you you you are not like fully conscious yet yeah so it's like anagrams it's you're writing in a very specific way where you write whatever you can think and some of these ideas i remember in the morning what i was thinking at night and it happened zk login is one example you have to write it then i have to write it otherwise i don't remember it

8:01so i cultivated this for a while and then um it became a habit i now try to change it gradually why is that going it's change your eight year habit yes but at the same time it's not healthy so you have to have to find ways now by the time i'm getting into a car all of my team is here the first thing i do is i have to sleep because commuting dubai i don't know how it is here with traffic it's quite intense so if you have to travel like for 30 minutes or one hour it's probably the best time for me to take a nap. And then, yeah, you do it a couple or three times per day, four times. So you're sleeping three hours.

8:42How did you realize that you, that it was not healthy? Did you start to feel some things physically? Oh, yes, I earned some weight, especially after I broke my leg. And it's not only this. I mean, everybody is just sitting on a desk and coding, you know, designing, having to take a few calls. Not sleeping well doesn't help, right? you don't have like the stamina to go to the gym, even your diet is a bit more… You eat shit, you eat crap because you have these cravings because you're underslept. Yeah, exactly. And I also have two kids, like five and seven now. One of them is Kryptos, by the way, the older one.

9:22We will have this discussion, but this was the most difficult algorithm in my life. It's not Krypto. The most difficult algorithm was to convince my wife, name our son Kryptos which was as you can imagine quite intense because there is also tradition in Greece to give the names of grandparents to kids and we changed that to Kryptos Kryptos Kryptos with a K because in Greece we don't have C the letter C doesn't exist we have Gamma how old is Kryptos? he's 7 now you grasp this card before you grab the card yeah it's a Solana Visa I think right payment is coming my friend everywhere it's a Cast card Cast one of the sponsors of the podcast it's basically paying with your stablecoins right you don't have ramp you just pay Apple Pay done very easy I just use that all the time I think most of the chains SWE also has some card providers now and I know I can imagine like payments coming into the space by far faster than we expected just because crypto as an asset is typically an investment for most of the people so we had to switch to something else and stability is the most obvious thing to do right so we will see many many card providers actually showing uh helping people to transact with converted crypto into uh digital fiat like usdc usdt all of the USD and then eventually use them to purchase stuff.

10:57I'm expecting though many countries even other currencies outside the USD to get into the game very very quickly. Otherwise they will stay behind. We just had one here in Singapore. I think it's XSGD. Do people use it? Well it's just started between Coinbase and one of the biggest banks here I think. Okay. And yeah we'll see. It's about adoption advertisement as well marketing i guess um you have to convince i don't know all of the restaurants starting with this because this is how people typically engage with um everyday like purchases is either grocery store or restaurants and all of the rest are coming afterwards right and probably some the big supermarkets like of amazon by the time we have it there i believe it will be the the beginning of stable coins is the thing to to transact Week 1.

12:17buy anything, food, coffee, hotel night, or plane tickets without having to use a bank ever again. Absolutely. I mean, for me, it could be clear, I live my life in stable coins. The business is run on stable coins. Every expense, people are paid in stable coins. Yeah, planes are booked with stable coins. This is true. Well, we started from the very beginning. Imagine I'm in the space since 2009, very, very early. By the way, I met my wife in a crypto meeting, crypto gathering. Wow. I was in my, I studied in Greece and I had some collaboration with France, Paris. My job was always to be a cryptographer.

12:58If you had to explain to your mom, what is a cryptographer? What is cryptography? It's very simple. By the way, we have to understand what the word means first. Like it's a Greek word. So I'm Greek. I can probably explain it. Crypto in Greece means something being secret. And graph, grapher, graphe means I write. So I'm writing something in secrecy. So what do you have on WhatsApp? And I was part of WhatsApp, by the way, on the team just after I left Libra, the project at Facebook. And you know that Facebook cannot read your messages because there is some encryption. This encryption is a job of a cryptographer.

13:35So we're building systems so your messages can go in secrecy from one place to another. In the WhatsApp case, Facebook cannot read your messages. you know, WhatsApp was acquired by Facebook. So Facebook cannot read your messages now because some algorithms there, some mathematics, protect your messages from being written by someone else. So this is one part of cryptography. And the other part of cryptography is typically digital signatures. So when we see some QR codes and there is a government that put a signature there, it means like we're replacing the handwritten signature with a digital signature.

14:08This is also the job of a cryptographer. And if we go further, so one is encryption, the other is digital signing the other is privacy in general so you will see all of these concepts zero knowledge proofs and a few others that are having to do with quantum encryption and all of this stuff cryptography is evolving right so we always have a job something new is coming and then we're working on more complex algorithms more complex properties so you will see very quickly for example that you go to the grocery store and sometimes they ask you oh you cannot buy this think it's more you have to be more than 18 years old or 21 you need cryptography right i prove to you by not showing all of the identity that i'm more than 18 but i'm not giving you anything else because this is what you need why do you need to know my birthday so a cryptographer is doing that this stuff mathematics algorithms for protecting the data being transferred without someone like witnessing what's happening and signing and privacy.

15:11This is what it is. I have many questions, but two come to my mind based on what you just said. The first one is regarding WhatsApp. Yes. You said Facebook can't read WhatsApp messages. They cannot, yes. But how secure or encrypted is my WhatsApp conversation? If I think about a government, for example, and when we know why web 3 exists right and when we know that the government has so much power on most of these companies i don't know what will happen with any extra rules in the in the future but at the moment what's happening on your whatsapp is your phone locally locally in the device you're creating a key cryptographic key this means that even facebook doesn't have access to this private key nobody when you want to chat with someone else on whatsapp the other person also has the same in cryptography we have this concept of public encryption which means that i create some secret from this secret i create an identity of my secret and then because you know the identity you can send me a message but if both secrets are staying in the device facebook doesn't have access to them so technically they cannot do anything about the encrypted communication there are a few issues here for example how do you know that whatsapp when you want to connect with someone is using the identity of that someone and it's not using the identity of something that is inside whatsapp and probably they can read your messages right playing the man in the middle so here you trust the software and the software is a binary that technically we we agree that facebook is not sitting there you have to trust this that's a problem it is a problem and this is why decentralized encryption and we recently had something on sui as well um is offering in my opinion better better guarantees regarding the visibility the transparency if you see an address a bitcoin address in ethereum a sui address solan address you know that the private key is owned by that person otherwise i mean you're interacting with them financially you know that there is a private key there there is a secret key so there is no intermediary there is nobody so technically we can have end-to-end encryption even between addresses so we will see very soon that all of our wallets eventually will support encrypted messages between people either because you need to send a receipt so when you buy something from a restaurant how do you connect this now with a tax system right there is nothing so maybe we will see the advancement of payments we see now with credit cards here or debit cards you might see the next step will be that even the receipts are going to be on chain because this is by far better for audits, by far better to defend against AML, you know, KYC and other stuff.

17:58But you need encryption. I shouldn't see that you're buying from Walmart or you're buying from Amazon and what you're buying. And privacy in general is coming. One of the issues, because personally, I'm also working on, you know, if you are an expert on privacy, typically what's happening is some institutions of some governments, they're asking you, what is the next step? One of the problems banks are facing is everything in crypto is public great for transparency but at the same time is not the same privacy you have on banks so if you buy a car let's assume that you buy a luxury car why do you want other people to know about this right yes it's a lot of people want other people to know about this particular one maybe for this example yes i was i was wrong but you never know, right?

18:45Sometimes you want to stay incognito or you want to not associate your address with this particular car because people then will see, oh, you're also donating there. And at the same time you have a car and people are dying in the war. You know, it's, it's quite complicated. So I believe all of the, all of the stuff we have between the banking systems at the moment are coming into crypto. Eventually in the next few years, I believe, I don't know, probably five max years, I think three to five, most of the transactions will also have some part of encryption inside them. So you will either not be able to see the amount.

19:19You don't know exactly how much money is transferred. Maybe with some access to the auditors and regulators, but not for the general public. Yeah, it's going to be the same because there is, in my opinion, even when I was at Facebook, you know what was the biggest challenge? How do you convince the regulators on one side about privacy and the regulators on the other side about transparency. Some regulators want to protect against anti-money laundering, right? You need to do something. At the same time, the other regulators want to ensure that the user is not exposing more than they should. And this is conflicting, right?

20:00And this is the reason when you mentioned about WhatsApp, why some governments are going against end-to-end encryption. There is a privacy element. at the same time they're afraid that if we allow full privacy there will be an issue i don't know with all of these terrorism attacks and other things that we cannot do anything i mean secret services cannot work so there will be a balance somewhere in my opinion i don't know what the balance will be but the cryptographers are now pretty much recruited to find the solution to these problems you said our job as cryptographer is constantly evolving there is always new challenges 100 can you debunk the one of the biggest worry of bitcoin people bitcoiner or i would say one of the biggest uh arguments for bitcoin detractors is quantum computing i was expecting so now because you talk about that you're probably one of the best placed person to say hey guys should we worry about that or should we say hey we know how to evolve we're humans and And this thing will evolve with the advance of quantum computing.

21:07And therefore, don't be too worried. So what's happening on quantum safe algorithms is the following. I was personally involved from the very beginning, right? I started publishing on quantum safe cryptography since, I don't know, 10 years ago. And even now, as you can see, Sue is publishing a lot of stuff about the quantum protection in the future, right? When it comes. my personal opinion as costas it's not there yet so quantum threat yes there are some uh like news that the technology is becoming better and better one of the problems with quantum computers is how to handle the noise because you are talking about you know sub atom uh like you know molecules and all of this stuff it's it's too like it's in the micro space right we we we don't know how to control all of these things but 10 years ago we believed that in 2030 2035 will probably be the doom day like something is gonna be produced by humanity that will break the cryptographic algorithms if you ask me now that is 2025 i don't see this happening in the next five years but there is a question mark here there are two things that happened in society that we have to take them into account.

22:23It's not so much the fear that a quantum computer can break Satoshi's coins because you know Satoshi's coins in Bitcoin which is a big amount of the distribution of coins are exposed. The public keys are exposed. Technically if there was a quantum computer and it can break cryptography the first protocol that will be attacked it's not Sui it's not Solana it's not near it's Bitcoin and it's these particular addresses of Satoshi which is a lot of money. So someone getting all of this liquidity can actually, you know, go the market up and down, pretty much a big whale, and we will start realizing there is a problem.

22:58The question mark that I mentioned before is the following. The National Institute of Standard Technology and many institutions and secret services and like all of these agencies across the world, they say that it doesn't really matter if we will find an attack with quantum computers. by 2030 to 2035, if you want to transact with the government, either because you need to make bank payments, you want to have the stock market into chain, you want to do e-commerce and all of this stuff, you have to support quantum safe algorithms. Independently on what will happen with the technology. Probably they're preparing themselves.

23:35If it happens, let's be ready at least before it happens. If they say 2030, 2035, in my opinion, this means that they're actually proactive. and this will not happen before that. Also, I don't see from the hardware vendors that are doing quantum, some of the claims are a bit overstated, right? This doesn't matter though, because there is another thing which is the second part of the question mark, which is AI. All of the analysis we did in the past about the progress of humanity on many sectors, not only cryptography, not only quantum, but all of the things in our life, we didn't take account that we created almost a different species.

24:13We now created something. that probably it can accumulate knowledge by far faster than the human brain, which means that we might have a leapfrog event in quantum computing just because AI helped us to think about it. So how do you predict us? Because AI, the AI of this form, like Chagipitin, Gemini, and DeepSeek, is only two years old. And you see how it progresses, right? I mean, can you do your job without AI anymore completely, just as a regular human? It's impossible. you have a competitive advantage using AI which means that the scientists who work on quantum computers they will use AI now to see if they can break something to some better science just because they have more knowledge so all of the change in my opinion should start the migration now until 2030 so that's my personal view it doesn't mean that it will be broken but because we have all of these interactions and now with Trump that yes it's it's getting more institutional and more like players from Web2 are coming.

25:15I was also in a robots conference last week and I see also the AI industry coming into the blockchain and eventually there will be agenting payments, but these payments might be with Stripe. These payments might be with all of the regular banking systems. You need to comply eventually. Otherwise, crypto will stay in a silo. So because of this, Bitcoin, Ethereum, Sui, Solana and all of the big tokens, in my opinion, should invest into getting QuantumSafe. And we did it at Sui. Not sure if you are following my post, for example. Two months ago, I think it was July, my team invented an algorithm where the previous addresses, not the new ones, imagine Satoshi's address, but for Sui, can be quantum safe just with a single click of a button using an interesting technology that is called post-quantum zero knowledge proofs.

26:08But this doesn't apply on Ethereum and Bitcoin. So SUI, Solana, Niar, and whoever is using an algorithm called EDDSA are better, at the moment, are better placed for quantum safety compared to the ECDSA chains, which is Bitcoin and Ethereum and all of the EVM. So it's happening. We have a dedicated team working on this and SUI will become quantum safe, at least for addressing new addresses that are quantum safe in the next couple of years. We already started. it might be even earlier than two years so don't be afraid for now in five years we should talk again what you should be afraid is maybe if we don't do it now we will have some problems interacting with the rest of the web 2 business are you aware of ethereum or bitcoin developers working on that?

27:04There are, yes. Ethereum Foundation gave a grant, in my opinion. They do, they're trying to do something towards this direction. I think his name is Giacomo. He's also someone that I see him in conferences. He's a good guy. He's also one of the guys who's working on this zero-knowledge post-quantum security. Solana is also having some people in their community who are working on creating new address types that are using quantum safe keys. And SUI has done all of the work in the last year, in my opinion, the most robust one with results. I think the others are initiatives that they are starting to explore this stuff.

27:48There are some very old chains like QRL, Quantum, I don't remember what is the name. But these, in my opinion, they are not like some of the top blockchains in the world. we don't have a quantum safe block chain in the top 20. Even in the top 40, if I remember correctly. There is nothing. So Sui is, in my opinion, leading this. But everybody started, if you see the tweets and all of this stuff, they're starting giving some funds to people to explore this. Typically on big universities. The problem with most of the companies that I see today, I will say Solana as well, I think they are lacking very strong teams on cryptography.

28:31So they have to rely completely on the community and the universities that things are slow. And I can tell you for sure, because I worked for Facebook. I was Silicon Valley for six years. And I know exactly what it means to go either academic or very slowly if you are pretty much as a public sector employee. Facebook is not public sector, but it's not a startup. Things are slow. The reason that we left Facebook was because we wanted all of this tech, even the quantum stuff, to happen faster, right? And you have to be a startup to contribute faster than you need to give 100 approvals from the managerial staff.

29:06And then you go up to Mark Zuckerberg or David Marcus back then to give the okay. Facebook launched in Libra in two months. You cannot make algorithmic changes. It's too expensive. But a company like Misten can provide an on-the-sue ecosystem a solution that has been trained by some of the best people who used to work at Facebook and Google and Apple, which means we can move faster that's why you haven't seen yet any big organizations like google or facebook by themselves not us that we left facebook and we created like the technology for sui that sui adapted that they're not there there is nothing in the top 50 100 that you see companies facebook google apple microsoft having a blockchain because they cannot the cycles in crypto are one of the narrowest in the space in the whole business sector and this is very very fast for all of these slow pacing companies absolutely how do you have the same happening at misten becoming slow because too big we don't allow this we have um and this is pretty much a lesson we got from the libra project i personally had 20 ideas at facebook but they were sitting in the self just because i couldn't apply them we were launching for one year costas don't take paternity leave were launching i didn't take paternity leave and the next month i didn't take paternity leave and the next month i didn't take i lost my paternity leave for 12 months i didn't take a single day how did your wife react to that after i after agreeing to name the covid saved me you know yes no cryptos was the first one he was already two years old three years but you already gave in on that and then on the next one there was no paternity leave I didn't take even on the first one for other reasons.

30:54I used to work for another crypto company that we were launching again and again, R3 Corda. I think now they do something with Solana. But it was one of the first startups in the ecosystem. Facebook had this particular issue of Libra was almost ready, technologically it was ready to launch. But because of this, you know, politics and regulations and all of this stuff, we had to wait until we get the green light. but this happened for a very long period which means that many of the people pretty much burn out because imagine if you're having your algorithms and you cannot actually put them in public then what do you do most of the folks in in silicon valley are very ambitious for their career right they cannot wait three years until you learn something so mister now is learning from all of these examples of the past and imagine evan the ceo of mister used to work at apple as well having one of the biggest teams there and then at facebook um we are creating smaller teams smaller teams that are acting independently because otherwise you will get into the same problem of being a very large organization that is like sluggies you're not moving fast for instance i have a hacker team now and you will see a lot of things happening with robots and ai coming into sui and this team is uh four people the core and then we have other people around it, but we work completely independently.

32:17And the cryptography team, it's another team that is working completely independently from the rest. And even the promotion paths and everything is running in a different pace. Otherwise you will be a public sector. I don't know until when, but I think it also helped that we opened the doors to universities and some of the folks are exposed still to the new generation and we're operating like this. While if you work at Apple, believe me, Most of the stuff is closed source. You're not interacting so much with the rest of the community. So you stay in a very small cycle. And for me, this doesn't work in crypto.

32:54That's why Apple is the slowest one in crypto adoption. Thank you to our friends at Paradex for supporting this show. Paradex is the leading perpetual decentralized exchange with zero fees, deep liquidity, and privacy. Season two runs through the end of January. so you do not want to miss this one. Trade on Paradex and start earning points by using the link in the description down below. At When Shift Happens, we're huge believers in freedom and privacy is at the core of it. That is why we partnered with Zashi Wallet, the easiest self-custody wallet for private transactions. You can send, receive, and spend Zcash without middleman or surveillance using Zashi, the wallet that was built by the team that launched Zcash in 2016.

33:40Thank you to Mantle, the distribution layer that connects traditional finance and on-chain liquidity for real-world assets. To accelerate this vision, Mantle is running the Mantle Global Hackathon and is inviting developers, founders, and innovators to design, build, and deploy scalable real-world assets and decentralized products on Mantle. Check the description down below to participate in the Mantle Global Hackathon and make a difference. you mentioned being at facebook and working uh so on libra then whatsapp and then you decided to dedicate your life to mr labs and to building the sweet network yes why because i want um by the way um i was also coming from a low middle class family and greece in particular faced a huge issue for me right i'm talking about me why me i'm in sui now and mr labs um we had capital controls we didn't trust the banking system even now we needed a change and that's why you see so many greek people to be very successful in the crypto space like even the the cardano head of research like the cryptographer is greek um we have two greeks like me and george zanesis in the team there are so many others, like even Paradigm, the CTO of Paradigm is also Greek, George Georgios, the CTO of Axelar, or one of the co-founders of Axelar is also Greek.

35:10And imagine a very small country. How is it possible that so many Greeks are there? And there is a reason, because we felt it in our blood. I mean, the economy of Greece was pretty much destroyed. Even now, it's trying to recover. And at the same time, all of us invested our time, instead of being doctors, medical doctors, which is my case. I wanted to be a medical doctor. I stopped. I'm a dropout of medicine to go into security and payments. I want to change that narrative. I want to have like a better ecosystem where even people who are unbanked or I don't know, they don't have privacy. I have the ability now and there is a vehicle with SWE and Walrus to achieve this.