E166: Bitget CEO From Divorced Single Mom to Running a $20B/Day Crypto Exchange

34:54Let's say you're talking to some of these women, but they're not really interested in crypto. I would say like the majority of the people still today, men and women, are crypto is not, I mean, you said before, crypto is sexy. When I talk to people about what we're trying to do, what I'm doing, et cetera, like we kind of have an image problem towards the outside world. What do you tell them? Why should people care about cryptocurrencies and the blockchain? I think there are lots of reasons that they should care about. First of all, I want to highlight there were people seeing Web3 and Web3 is an indication of Web2 being upgrading to more ownership, more decentralized.

35:45I think if you only look at blockchain and crypto from that application or technology involvement angle, you might be disappointed, especially in this cycle, because GameFi, SocialFi, DP, most of these sectors that's building on Web3 or application perspective kind of failed, kind of failed the industry, kind of failed their users. But if you look at blockchain from a TradFi versus TradFi Plus or TradFi upgrade kind of angle, you might be much more satisfied or even surprised. You see in this angle, BlackRock, Fidelity, all these largest asset management teams included Bitcoin and Ethereum as part of their ETF and portfolios for their users, that being the largest capital inflow into this industry in this cycle.

36:43You've also seen NYSE, NASDAQ announcing that they want to tokenize their U.S. stocks and build the platform for both settlement and trading on tokenized RWAs and U.S. stocks. You've already seen stablecoin passing, what, 200 billion, 300 billion kind of market cap, and it's so much used in cross-border transactions for both 2B and 2C scenarios. So if you look at these angles, you realize crypto and the blockchain is really revolutionizing how traditional finance world is working and revolutionizing our world. Now, OpenClaw is very popular. AI agents is a very hot topic. But again, if we think about AI agents' communication, they use stablecoin, USDC a lot.

37:40Maybe in Asia, especially like China, where Alipay and WeChat Pay is very dominating and everyone is very used to digitalize the payment. But in many other parts of the world, that's not the case. I think digital payment and stablecoin will work together in these kind of agents communication and agents payment settlement. So, looking at these different scenarios, you realize, again, blockchain is just so revolutionizing and help us make better financial decisions and bank the unbanked and broker the unbrokered. So I guess that's the promise of blockchain and I look about our industry's growth from that angle as well.

38:27And I think it's so important that people should at least know about it rather than, oh this is bullshitting i've only heard about ftx collapse and you guys are coming go users found or some crazy meme coins um i think that's part of the crypto world but that's definitely not the only part but if you look at something like ai i'm thinking about my girlfriend for example she's using gpt a lot for everything yeah it's very tangible and it's very cool it's amazing and I think most people who I mean people understand that right like how do I google but something much better and have conversation about anything the other day I had a conversation with the GPT about actually Hong Kong taxes like GPT was acting like a tax lawyer in Hong Kong so you can do anything can could be it can be a therapist can be anything crypto i understand i'm unbanking the banking the unbanked broker the unbrokered i think it's amazing but it's because i love investing right i understand how you need to invest if you want to build wealth all that stuff but the majority of the people on this planet do not save money do not invest money therefore or they probably don't care much.

39:55Do you think one day, because you said, this is an interesting part of crypto, but all the people who think about the Web3 and decentralized application are disappointed. Do you think that we will get to a point where we have something like a GPT that makes sense to everyone? Like a truly decentralized application that is not necessarily a financial use case? Or do you think that the future of crypto is actually upgrading finance, which in itself is a massive market, but it's not that interesting to the majority of the people. I would say blockchain's future is around upgrading the finance world, which, like you said, is a by itself multi-trillion business.

40:43but um whether this is same as ai or chat gpt or you know nano nano banana um open claw this kind of different chat box picture picture creation and agents kind of ai scenarios i would say it's very different because AI is still, AI is probably more tangible as you pointed out and blockchain is more around finance, which I don't think there's right around nor do I think they are competitors. They are working together and they are both the future. Part of AI is probably more of the future of softwares and then blockchain is more the future of finance. which you are a big part of as a CEO of BitGet.

41:42Explain BitGet to your seven-year-old son.

41:51Explain BitGet to my seven-year-old son. Okay, by the way, my son has Bitcoin. We just had our Chinese New Year and he had a lot of red packets. which is part of the Asian culture during the Lunar New Year to give out the kids. Some of my friends and our families gave him a lot of money. And he has a portfolio that has Bitcoin, has gold, silver, copper, as well as stocks in Hong Kong. So he's already an investor. So explaining this to him is probably slightly easier because I did tell him that I will help you buy those assets, many of them on Bigget. So Bigget is this marketplace where you can exchange things.

42:41You can exchange your money for the Bitcoin that you want. You can also exchange when you think Bitcoin price is high and you want to sell it. You can also exchange your Bitcoin for the money and then you can use the money to buy maybe the lego that you really want yeah so he he thinks it in that way and he knows what i'm working on and he he knows biget um by the way some videos for them i just showed it a open call biget has its own open call video so so my son was just holding the camera for me and shooting that video for me so he's actually involved in our business a lot But yeah, I guess to a general kid, we'll just explain it as a marketplace where you can exchange and trade things with your friends.

43:32So he understands that if he buys some Bitcoin now, he can probably buy more Lego later than if he just spends a... At least that's what I'm telling him. And I think he definitely bought in that story because he's more than half of his red packet money are in Bitcoin. Wow.

43:54Give me some numbers about BitGate business. People understand the size of the beast that you are leading. Sure. We have a daily trading volume of about 20 billion USD, 25 million users just on the exchange side because we also have a bigger wallet, which have another about 100 million user, non-KYC decentralized wallet users. But the biggest centralized exchange part of the users are all KYC'd, 25 million. We've already listed 600 cryptocurrencies, but we are also gradually delisting some which are not active, and of course include and list some new important ones. But other than cryptocurrency, we are actually very, very bullish on the fact that there will be more stablecoin supply and people will want to use stablecoins to trade, not just cryptocurrency but in general globally valuable asset classes including gold silver oil commodities forex tokenized stocks especially tokenized u.s stocks we've actually said more than 200 tokenized u.s stocks on our futures and 30 to 40 on our spot market you mentioned before that you have actually quite a lot of females as part of the bigot management team more than 50 percent more than 40 percent in our management team how did you pull this off we just ignored the gender honestly yeah we didn't really realize that we are doing that until about maybe two years ago when we did a did a count internally we realized oh management team wise they are actually quite genderly equal in terms of the ratio.

45:44And if you look at our highest, you know, CXO teams, I'm a CEO and a female. Our CPO, P for product, so she builds all the product. She's also a female. Our CCO, C for compliance, who is also based in Hong Kong, she is also a female. So there are lots of CXOs that are females. Other than them, our CTO is a male. Our CLO is a male. CFO is a male. But pretty much that's all the CMOs. But it's very genderly equal. If you just look at the highest executive team and then to the middle management team, we are very blind when we are recruiting for employees in terms of gender. But we're definitely not blind about what the results that they delivered in their previous company and they can continue to deliver at hours.

46:43Yeah, so just very blind about gender in general. You mentioned before when we talked about these investors that didn't want to invest in you in 2017, I think, because you were a woman saying, hey, women cannot be good entrepreneurs. Where do you think women are better than men in terms of business management practice? Definite communication and risk control. We actually did a research. We realized females did much better than males in long run for crypto investment. Maybe short run, males still did better. So I joke, you know, if there's a family, the wife should manage their family wealth because it just did better in the long run.

47:37And then in terms of communication, yeah, so because I, as a CEO, I do communicate externally and internally about a lot of things, about our strategy, about partnership, talk to my CPO on a daily basis on what we are building, how we can improve, talk to our CIO and CCO on legal and more compliance issues because we're actually getting lots of license around the world. But yeah, communication is a very big part of my daily work and I really enjoyed it. I definitely don't think that males are bad at communication. Look at yourself. You're so good at communication as well. But if you have to ask me to name a few trades, I think these are the two things come to my mind.

48:27But in general, I think we just don't really think one is better than the other or vice versa um i definitely agree that males are more in terms of strength and power just stronger than females in general how does that help for business exactly exactly i mean the security maybe when i need to move a table in our office i do call for some male colleagues to come guys yeah come and help oh this is so heavy guys come and help yeah but i guess in business we really don't think there's much difference the the risk management part like i mean it's it's actually documented that all these big blow-ups in crypto also outside it's basically men all the time most of the time i mean there was uh elizabeth holmes and a few others but like most of the time is men uh because they just take crazy risks because of ego most likely right i actually remember from maybe a couple of weeks ago i read this this guy online who was saying i think it was on twitter he was saying the classic thing it's exactly what you said before about investing he was saying i have a girlfriend and she started i'm in crypto she's not really in crypto but she started to listen to me so she she dca'd dollar cost average since 2019 every week or every month bitcoin and eith oh she's she's never she's never used twitter she's never she does she's not in the middle of this noise nothing and i'm here just spending my days on twitter and and and looking at all this drama and investing and trading etc and thought that i had some alpha exactly and she basically outperformed me massively yeah I think that's a classic thing I mean that sounds about right the classic thing is the dead people outperform everyone right yeah I think it's a Charles Schwab study dead people outperform everyone so yeah I think it just it just it says it all that's life yeah except being stronger and being able to help move the table to move the table table where do you think men are better than women in business management practice uh it's it's it's like the coins has two sides right if you want to take slightly more risk and you want to be more aggressive uh i think that's where we see men doing better than women um some markets we we actually divided the whole global market into different regions when it is a region um this sounds a little bit gender biased but but it seems that just like a very high level uh gut feeling that seems that when we want to more you know aggressively enter a market um those country managers seem more more of them seem to be men and when it's a market that we are we've already conquered and we're just like taking care of it, it's probably females doing a better job.

51:44So you send the man to war and then you say, now that you're almost dead, we replace you with a woman. Well, again, that's just godfilling. It's definitely, this empirical data is definitely not very accurate. It's just like something that will come to my mind, like gladiators, like you guys go and fight the war and and then women take care of the family and in the homeland but yeah definitely definitely not really trend accurate it's just empirical data quick one i want to thank our partners who help us make this show possible thank you treasure my favorite cold wallet to store my crypto and make sure i sleep well at night if you want to order a treasure wallet and sleep well at night too.

52:31You can use my promo code WSH10 to get a 10 % discount. Big thank you to Bitwise Asset Management for backing today's conversation. Bitwise is a crypto specialist asset manager with more than$15 billion in client assets across 30 plus crypto solutions, including ETFs, index funds, alpha strategies, staking, and more. However you like to invest in crypto, Bitwise has something for you. Thank you to our friends at SWE for supporting this show. SWE is a scalable layer one blockchain that's fast, secure, and affordable, built by previous Facebook developers, and that delivers the benefits of Web3 with the ease of Web2.

53:09To support this show, please check the sponsor links in the description down below. Earlier, we talked about KPIs. I asked you, how do you manage 2 ,200 people who are mostly working remotely and you said it's a kpi led company therefore if you don't reach your kpis you're out what are your kpis as a ceo of bid get uh i would come concluded in three things fight money fight people and fight strategy so what i mean by that is can you explain the fight part sorry find a find okay if i indeed find yeah um find money is not that important now uh but two three years ago when we were raising for the last round of money uh we we spend a lot of time talking to vcs so find money could be that and then uh find different ways to make money could be part of that as well.

54:15Find People is more about getting the new bloods, especially from the higher executive team to join our company. When we saw some bottleneck in certain departments, for example, last year, end of last year, we realized we are pretty strong on cryptocurrency as an exchange already, but we are lack of traditional financial experience. So I went out to spend a lot of time to talk to different candidates and even talk to my friends who can recommend people and recruited a few. Find strategy is more about me being part of the CXO's team and be able to communicate to our board of directors where we want to go, what we want to do, what's the next steps.

55:07UEX is a very important strategy we had since end of last year because we realized that only CEX and DEX or working only in crypto is not enough for our growth strategy anymore in 2025. Because altcoins, I say altcoins are dead. This sounds a bit crazy as an exchange CEO who offer a lot of altcoins. But we do think cryptocurrencies, our coins dominance is losing to Bitcoin, as well as Bitcoin, Ethereum, these large blue chip tokens. Our market is also becoming more competitive since there are ETFs where users can trade crypto, Bitcoin, Ethereum. And there are also DATs and brokers like Robinhood or in Hong Kong, Futo, Niu Niu, those kind of platforms which also provide services or access to cryptocurrencies trading.

56:13So our market is a little bit shrinking right now in 2025. And we can't be just, you know, I just want to do this. And this pie is even shrinking. when the pie is shrinking it doesn't really matter how much of the pie that you are getting from your competitors or your direct competitors so we were thinking how should we grow the pie so that's part of the very important things that i think on a daily basis and strategies and works that i do what do you do to grow the pie how do i want to grow a pie I mentioned earlier, so looking at this pie, you realize, okay, so we know all coins are shrinking.

56:57Cryptocurrencies market itself is getting more competitive. So build on this, what are some other things we know? What are some other trends that we can forecast? One trend is stablecoins are growing, right? Stablecoins is already a 300 billion market, and it should continue to grow with Genius Act through last year, with more organizations or governments recognizing stablecoins. Stablecoin builds is also passed in Hong Kong. So we know that for sure. And then we also know users want to like blockchain, still like blockchain, because blockchain as a technology is just a faster and more efficient way of settlement of cross-border transactions, payment of trading kind of settlement.

57:53So that's another thing we know. Blockchain technologies can still be used in many cases. And then the third thing we know is our users, no matter it's a crypto user or TradFi users, they will continue making capital investments. They will continue trading all sort of global asset classes. Although cryptocurrency or especially altcoins might shrink as a market, but gold is not. Silver is not. Tokenized U.S. stocks or U.S. stocks in general is still a very dominating market or even pre-IPO stocks. So we look at all these different assets that our users want to trade and see what are the current solution, can we tokenize them, who is the service provider on tokenizing, for example, US stocks, how can we partner with them.

58:49So since mid-last year, we started to talk to UndoX stocks, and we integrated both of them. We talked to BlackRock, Fidelity, Franklin Templeton on enabling their tokenized money market funds, Benji, Builder, etc., to provide to our users, to give them a decent 4 % TBO kind of return. And we integrated the CFD platforms to provide gold, silver. We listed the tethered gold, et cetera. So those are the things we know for sure. And these are the actions that we took in order to grow the pie. I understand the third part, right? because you said, hey, people still want to invest no matter what and therefore we're going to offer them a much wider investment range, which makes a lot of sense, especially we can do it 24-7 in crypto.

59:49People want to trade outside of market opening hours or in the weekends. How do you do something as an exchange for the first two categories you mentioned? we want to capitalize on stablecoin growth for example what can you do actually stablecoin part is more captured by bigger wallet bigger wallet right now um is offering card something like like this similar like cards or just like qr codes kind of scan that's more popular in southeast asia according to bigger wallets growth so in terms of bigget exchange part i would say the first two points are not exactly things that I'm capturing directly, but these are the foundations of us growing the third part.

1:00:41Because there are more people who want to, who will have stable coin compared with their fiat currency. And because they are still interested in technology of blockchain, since blockchain technology is just faster and cheaper. so when they are purchasing global assets they will just naturally trade on the tokenized version of them or use stable coin to do those kind of trading so i would say for big debt exchange the centralized exchange part one and two are the foundations for us to grow the third part you can also say those are assumptions but since we think it's not just assumption it's going to be facts and it's more and more trendy.

1:01:27So we want to capture that. How much of your own personal life do you run on stablecoin versus Hong Kong dollar or fiat currency? For me it's quite crazy. I actually just did a calculation yesterday using AI's help. I just give him the screenshot of my hard drive wallet of my big get account information of my for example HSBC bank information on my stocks holding here there on my gold and tokenized gold and tokenized the silver coin etc here and there so I just send all this information to my AI and ask it to calculate. Seems that 70 % of my portfolio are in crypto. And then in my crypto portfolio, slightly less than half right now are in Bitcoin.

1:02:25Less than one person are in Ethereum. You can see I'm much of a Bitcoin maxi than an Ethereum maxi. And then I still have some stable coins parked there to wait for opportunities to buy. Also have some tokenized gold, some tokenized NVIDIA, US stocks and some BGB, which is our platform token. Yeah, so that's probably what my portfolios look like. I also have some Hong Kong stocks and US stocks. What about daily life payments? Pay for my coffee, pay for my flat or my house, pay for flights. Today, I use, it's actually depending on where I am. If I'm in Hong Kong, I seem to use Hong Kong dollar more for my HSBC account.

1:03:16But if I'm traveling around the world, I tend to use more cryptocurrency because it's just fluid. And I have three different cryptocurrency denominated cards, both with Visa and MasterCard. and I can use all of them while traveling around the world. Yeah, so very, very easy to use. What's the end game for BitGet? End game. It's hard to imagine the end game because I don't know what the end may look like or 10 years down the street this industry look like. But I can give an estimate of maybe three to five years, which in my opinion it's a foreseeable future 10 years is just too far away so in three to five years my our end game might be building this exchange for people to use stable coin to trade global globally universally important and valuable assets many of them that we mentioned earlier stocks cryptocurrencies forex commodities etc and then I hope three years later we can also be listed maybe NYSE or NASDAQ for more you know just build a global brand better that's why I also getting more license hopefully we can get to Vara very soon because that was supposed to get down in Q1, but because of the war, maybe delay to Q2, Vara, Mika, even the US strategy that we're thinking maybe to enter the US market end of this year or next year.

1:05:06So one of your goals is to list BitGet, one of your personal goals to list BitGet in the US. In three years time. By the way, it's not just personal goals. It's a company's goal. We are We're also right now deciding on how to incentivize our employees to work better towards that goal by giving out some vesting kind of equity plan. It's not finalized and announced yet, but we want to make sure about maybe one third of our employees together with all the management team can have some vested stocks so that we can build towards this future together. before you said you think that 99 of the people are not probably not made for entrepreneurship which sounds pretty realistic but i read maybe it's wrong that you believe that anyone can become a ceo why i don't know what's the occasion i said that though did you say that i'm not sure fair enough i'm not sure okay because because i think i think it's it depends on the context or how do you define ceo um i sometimes say i'm also ceo of my family because i do manage my my my family in the same way that i manage a company like i get my parents As a single mother, you can imagine I need to work and I need to take care of a young kid.

1:06:43So I get my family, especially my parents, to come and help. But then you have your parents, you have your nanny, you have your kid. They also speak different languages. Like my nanny is from Philippines and she can only speak English. So I needed to get them all work together. My parents, of course, sometimes have conflicts with me. Like when I force my kid to do too much reading, they were like, oh, he's young. He needs to sleep. He shouldn't work too hard. It's bad for his eyes. And I needed to, you know, fight and set a framework that we can work together. Yeah, so those are the cases that I think I also seem like a CEO at my home.

1:07:25So back to your question, if we define CEO just like that, like a project manager, like you need to get everyone to work together, I think I agree that everyone can be a CEO. But if we're talking about, you know, really driving huge difference, navigate this ship in the sea that has a lot of waves and thunderstorm, I don't think everyone can be a CEO. Because it's just hard. And it challenges human nature in a sense that if you look at many funders, you realize, number one, they need to be really, really calm. when there are thunderstorms. And number two, they really need to sacrifice a lot of their personal life.

1:08:16For example, I don't have much privacy. I can be walking on the street and be recognized. So I feel actually very, very uncomfortable about that. And I don't post any pictures of my son's face just to protect him. I don't want him to be kidnapped because I know there were hackers targeted, my company and myself. and it's just crazy the kind of personal life that you may lose as a founder or CEO and then thirdly it's just hard to make those decisions like for example when we were facing this shrinking pie how can we think of a pie that is growing that result that I just shared is not there on day one.

1:09:03We spend a lot of time talking to our employees, looking at what's happening in the industry, talking to our partners, talking to regulators, and understand, okay, this is a direction we should move forward to. So those are the things that I think is quite hard, being a founder or a CEO of a company that probably not everyone is fit for. you're a single mom ceo of a 2200 person company that operates 24 7 in crypto how do you do that just do it just do it like like the nike slogan um is it is it hard or is it um requires you to sacrifice some personal life definitely but is it undoable i don't think so i think i think we just we just came here um where where i am or where big it is today along the way by thinking of it as running a marathon yeah i talked about running a marathon a lot because i do think as running exchange is more of analogy to running a marathon rather than running a sprint.

1:10:20There are many exchanges who came out faster and earlier than we did. If you think about, for example, FTX, that was a company who probably were considered number two in the industry that came very fast. And SBF is also very young, another talented MIT grad. it's just we don't really think running exchange should be like them who just go very fast and then fail immediately for us to build a stronger foundation and pace ourselves in different market scenarios and just do step one step by one step try to get your daily work done properly and efficiently is our goal. So running a marathon, and I've run this marathon for four years, I think I can run for another four years and bring us to a listed company.

1:11:22How has BitGet evolved since you joined in 2022? It evolved a lot. If we just look at some direct numbers, we were a maybe top 15 exchange when I joined BitGet. Now we are top five. How do you define top five? If you look at CoinGecko, CoinMarketCap kind of ranking, that's typically our ranking on spot market and derivatives market exchanges. And then we only had 150 employees when I joined the company. We were running on Telegram at that time. People use Telegram to communicate with each other internally until I came in and we looked at, you know, how, first of all, a telegram can be easily hacked and inefficient, and then we became more global.

1:12:15Actually, 2022 was also the year we started to globalize. We were a master of an East Asian-based exchange before 2022. So people need to work across different time zones because we have a global team now. Just in terms of the time zone difference, it's hard to coordinate on telegram so we shifted to lark which is built by bydance in 2022 interesting it was built by bydance lark is built because i know bybit was using that i don't know if they still are i i think they probably are and many exchanges and many crypto firms even vcs etc are working on lark or feishu feishu is the lark chinese version of lark but basically Lark is a much better tool when you can coordinate things, you can write documents together.

1:13:11Now we also build AI agents for Lark and for Telegram. So the way Bigget evolves is just very different from four years ago.

1:13:24What's one thing that you're holding on to, but you know you should let go of?

1:13:35I don't think I'm that much holding on to that anymore but I do think I was very much holding on to the fact that my parents divorced and I also divorced so it feels like failure marriage is part of this family's curse and until a friend pointed out that Gracie you are 30 plus and you are a very capable and successful woman you are not that 11 year old girl whose parents just divorced and you needed to cook instant noodle for yourself when none of your parents were around and and that was just like a drowning girl you're not that drowning girl anymore you have a very good life that you don't need to um sympathize yourself for so that i think that's a very important moment for me to realize i don't need to hold to that history whether my parents divorced or i divorced it doesn't really matter i spent some good time with my ex-husband when we were together we divorced we still have a child together i can date other people now and you know this single life just feels awesome so that was probably something that i held held down to a lot previously but not anymore that's like personal part if how do you how do you think about your son and what you're gonna tell him or teach him so he doesn't reproduce uh or so he's less likely to reproduce the what happened to your parents and to you The failure marriage curse.

1:15:18So I divorced when he was about three years old. And even I remember during that divorce time, I actually bought, there are three like child's book that's tailored to his age, which is like writing, mainly drawing with some little words. That's about divorce. so at his year of three i've already read him a few books about about unworking marriage or divorce like for example this this book called mom's house and dad's house something like that so i communicate about my divorce with him very directly since since then um whether i think this is a curse that I want him to not reproduce or not experience again I probably don't think about it that way yeah I probably don't really think um divorce is a failure or is something that he should try to avoid I just think it's an experience it's an experience for myself it's an experience for my son when he grow up grow old and he met someone that he wants to spend time with um or even that did not work like he married and then they divorced i i just don't think it's a it's a failure i think those are great experiences that he should experience or um or should whatever just it's just an experience so um yeah so i guess that's how i view this yeah i'm not trying to set him um apart from it or try to avoid that yeah i think he should have his own life what does the voice in your head tell you every morning when you wake up and every evening when you go to sleep um definitely um what are some decisions that we need to make uh so for example now nowadays is what I'm thinking a lot is around the growth of AI and how that may challenge our line of work.

1:17:41Another thing that I'm also thinking is right now we're building this UEX, Universal Exchange. We've done integrating those assets on our platform. But to me, it feels like only from zero to one. We've had this platform, this assets class now, but it doesn't mean they are perfect. For example, liquidity need to be solved on tokenized U.S. stocks. 24-7 is a sexy word to offer for non-crypto assets, but during the weekend, the liquidity is quite low. How can we improve on that? Then tokenized U.S. stocks, for example, there were original issues around the mechanism where, for example, when there is a dividend distributed from the underlying stocks.

1:18:28How can that dividend, because for example, like stocks and undo, they don't issue the dividend directly to their users and to our users, like their distributors in this example. So they just use the underlying SPV to purchase the dividends and reflect the price directly so that users are exposed to the commercial growth, financial growth, but they didn't receive the dividend directly. They only receive the dividend when they sell off their tokenized stocks. But that one have an issue, which is the tokenized stocks versus the underlying stocks, the price will deviate, will de-pack gradually. It's not a big issue now.

1:19:15It will be a bigger issue when the price become more and more different. so we are thinking about these kind of very subtle things on how to improve how to get from we've passed from zero to one how do we get from one to ten to offer our users a better product and better service yeah so ai and this uex one to ten kind of things are what keep me awake at night and maybe across the day we have a lot of our conversations Business, business, business. Definitely personal life too. Like who should I date? Is this a good guy? Well, he treated my son well. Definitely a little bit on personal life too, but probably more business.

1:20:05Tell me one thing that you learned in the last 10 years that the people who are watching this can take with them for the next 10 years of their life. A few things. Number one, to young people who just came out to workplace, I want to say you are not paid by how hard you work, but by how hard you are replaced. So think about that e-replacement and what's your unique value. Definitely more important when AI can replace a lot of things. So that's one thing. A second thing is in terms of the future of working, people really need to consider how to work with AI. I think those who cannot work with AI, by the way, we just announced internally to our company that everyone needs to use AI very, very frequently.

1:21:06And we will set up OKR or KPI to measure how you work with AI. Like if I'm interviewing someone, I ask you what kind of AI tool you're using, and that person only says, oh, I use Dipsick or ChatGPT. I'm like, that's a failure. Because you need to at least know, you know, Nano Banana, OpenClaw, and all sort of AI tools that get you different things. Dipsick and Gemini and ChatGPT are only the chat box, which can get you to do a lot of things already, but still limited. you should have experienced many different AI tools. So that was our point. And yeah, we announced that we want everyone to try that.

1:21:49We also made OpenClaw, our BigGet version of OpenClaw, which we call GetClaw, free to everyone in our company to use Telegram and Lark. And so basically anyone who cannot work with AI in the future will be eliminated by BigGet. But they are not eliminated by our company. They are eliminated by the trend, by the future, by the world. So that's the second thing I would suggest people to think about how their work and their line of business can coexist with AI. And the third thing in terms of investment advice, I would say the upcoming futures will be more and more chaotic. If you look at the geopolitical tensions right now happening in Middle East and around the world, some potential in Asia as well, just geopolitical tensions everywhere, wars everywhere.

1:22:54And also governments are continually printing money, every single government. M2 supply is going up and up. so in this kind of environment money will be less valuable in the future and what are some asset classes that can be fighting against this trend so that's why I'm quite bullish gold, silver copper this kind of commodity together with bitcoin I'm not buying a lot of US stocks nowadays other than holding maybe some of my current NVIDIA, etc. So that is basically the future that I think is going to happen. And my investment decisions are definitely based on this narrative or this trend. But I guess for anyone, they should consider wealth management.

1:23:54They should consider adding Bitcoin as part of their portfolio if they haven't done so. And they should do that through BitGet? Yeah. Obviously. I don't think BitGet is the only platform though. But yeah, as we mentioned, there are ETFs, brokers, exchanges, you can trade. Yeah, so those are the three different aspects of advice to young kids or young working adults, to AI and this trend of the future in terms of technology and to investment decisions. Thank you so much, Gracie, for doing that. Thank you. That was amazing. Thank you for inspiring a lot of people and hopefully helping bring more female in this industry.

1:24:41And thank you for also helping our podcast get a little bit of a better male to female ratio. It's pretty catastrophic for now, I have to be honest. Yeah, thank you for having me. That was awesome. Thank you. As you probably know by now, I host some of the biggest names in Bitcoin and crypto on my podcast. But a lot of the best stuff never makes it on air. The Shift newsletter is where I share that raw behind the scene alpha, the insights, stories, and lessons straight from my guests that you won't hear anywhere else. If you want the real insight take on Bitcoin and crypto, join my newsletter, The Shift, in the description down below.

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