E58: Annabelle Huang: Leading a $3bn Company at 30 Years Old!

29:17So then we went through a little bit of that that talk on the desk and actually a couple other traders also went into crypto later. So it was a fun time. So you meet some guys, you said in social settings, who are doing this crypto thing. Yeah. That's kind of a weird thing and also kind of intimidating in the beginning, you know, Because I mean, for me, it was, at least for me, it was. And for a lot of people, it's because you don't really understand it. You're like, what is this thing?

29:55So you, you're open to the idea of maybe trying, but now like the key question is because there's probably a lot of people, guys and girls who met people doing crypto a few years ago. probably the majority were like i'm not sure i'll wait a bit but you go for it not only and second within a few years you become the managing partner of a three billion crypto company as a woman and you're 30 years old yes how the hell do you do that like what happened that made you basically become who you are today? I don't think anything sort of incredible or extraordinary happens. I think it's obviously timing and luck that put me there in the first place.

30:53And I think I was naturally drawn to this environment. And I think everything else that I've experienced in my life also contributed to this. I think being open-minded, willing to jump into a new situation is important. I think adaptability has always been my biggest strength because I've lived in different places. I speak different languages, been put in different situations, and I kind of seek that. I like that. I like new challenges. So I think that set me up well in the beginning. and being able to learn fast also because there's so much information, even to this day, right? Every day I wake up and it's new information about the market and you have to be able to absorb them fast and have some sort of pattern recognition, which I think mathematics really helped in that sense.

31:50And then I think I was also just very grateful to have a very incredible team that kind of helped me transition the space in the beginning and the AirSwap team who I met in New York, two of the co-founders and the first engineer all went to Corky Mellon as well. So I think that gave me so much comfort into jumping to this new thing with them and they've all taught me a lot and also the role actually required me to move back to Asia, which I was also very grateful for. after I think spending a very defining few years of my life in the US and coming back to Asia and being in this very new industry also just helped me expand my understanding of crypto market in a more global sense.

32:46What's so different about this industry? Where do I even start? What's not different, right? I think first of all, the people. And you'll see, I think, the different cycles attract different kinds of people. I think the era that I got started getting involved, right, the 2017 era was actually a lot of people similar to myself, maybe has a career in finance or something else in tech and finance, and then start getting involved after the 2017 run. And the people I met who started getting involved before, I think they have a different ideology in terms of what drew them to crypto before it was well known in the first place.

33:32And then I think then you start to see the 2021 era, which is also a very different crowd. So it's interesting to think of us as different vintages. You worked for AirSwap for, what did you do for them? Originally, it was to do... And what was it? Right. Originally was to really look at growth for their APAC markets. But what's AirSwap? AirSwap is one of the first decentralized exchanges or decentralized trading places built on Ethereum. It was actually a spoke under consensus. And yeah, the first product is called basically AirSwap. It's a widget, and then you can atomically swap one ERC-20 asset to another and then have it settle atomically without sort of going through any intermediary.

34:31And that was the idea, really. But that was before DeFi was really a thing. So you moved to Asia to lead AirSwap in Asia? Correct. Part of it is to onboard new market makers to provide pricing on our RFQ platform. which is very similar to maybe a lot of the current RFQ DeFi products that are built right now. But the difference is that there's maybe two market makers back then that's open to market making on chain. And I think Amber was one of them, which is how I met them very early on. Who was the other? The few others are actually based in Europe. There's some maybe Belgium or Israeli shops.

35:23There are small shops that are willing to do that. Yeah, it was a very different time. So you made the Ember Group team. I think it was probably their beginnings or near their beginnings. Exactly. What happened then? I've always enjoyed speaking to the Amber team in Hong Kong. They're one of very few, even though they haven't market-maked on-chain before, but open to the idea. And we would have hour-long discussions about the future of DeFi and what we're building now, what really makes sense, and essentially what parts of that really needs to be decentralized and how does that work. And I think I was pretty surprised at the thoughtfulness of the team, even though their business or Amber's business was primarily in CeFi back then.

36:18And I think that also brought me to think about liquidity very differently after seeing the reality of that. But all in all, just because the team, all of us came from very similar background. Most of us sort of born and raised in Asia with the exception of one and went to school in the US or UK, had some sort of traffic experience and then now fully bought on, bought into crypto. So I think that was some instant click and also trust built over time. And then eventually they convinced me to join their team. What is Amber? So if I say AirSwap is DeFi, then I think Ampere is CFi plus DeFi in a sense that in terms of market making or liquidity and also in terms of the asset management side, where our role is to really aggregate the liquidity and the yield and all these trading opportunities wherever, whether it is on centralized venues or on chain.

37:30and aggregate them to offer to any clients, institutional clients are interested. So really playing this similar to investment banking role in the Trafi sense, but in crypto land. Most of the big crypto companies or protocols, they have a leader who is I'd say kind of almost famous you know that everybody knows about right but for Amber it's not really the case you need to be in the field to know who these people are it's kind of like these low-key people who build this big company how is that possible I think most of us are low-key people. Or at least myself, I'm very terrible at social media because I think that just requires constant engagement and all of that and a lot of mind space in that sense.

38:35I think kudos to a lot of people who are very successful at doing that. And I think I've recognized a brand new value. But to us, because we're primarily an institutional business, that we didn't need to be a so-called retail household name because our target audience is a much smaller group and a lot of that is word of mouth and building a reputation track record within that. Similar to a lot of the hedge funds or HFD shops that are big but still remaining pretty low-key. I think that's at least my dream.

39:17I checked the website, the management team, and you're the only woman. That's right. But my team, though, has more women than men, so I'm very happy about that. How does it feel to be the only woman in the management team? A lot of times I forget. Why do you forget? Because I don't think we really see ourselves that different, at least consciously. But I think on a subconscious level, I think it is important to have that diversity. Because I think we react to different situations still differently. especially in crypto where you go through so much basically sort of all walks of life within maybe three four years so I think after experiencing that then I start to see even though I don't think my team ever treated me differently because I'm a woman or I treated them differently because I felt different from them and we've had plenty of arguments where maybe I'm the louder one in the room.

40:24But I think subconsciously, now I reflect, there are situations where I think our first reaction is so different that it is still important to have more female representation and a voice there. I actually wanted to start with that, but we're getting to it right now, which is I I read some pretty shocking stats yesterday in a Forbes article. Women represented just 14 % of solo startup founders in 2021 and received just 2%, 2 % of the venture capital deployed in 2022. We're not talking about 1980s or 1990s, we're talking about 2022. Companies established by all male teams, which basically is the case for Amber, right?

41:16received more than 82 % of the funding. It is shocking stats, but I think a lot of it's also just how the reality is there's very few solo female founders. I don't know why that's the case. I can maybe imagine it does feel very challenging and uncomfortable building something on your own. and maybe at least for me I know um I would feel a lot better if I have co-founders regardless of gender but I think it would be difficult for me to um get comfortable with the idea of being a solo founder because that just requires so much of you like even within my entrepreneur friend group there's maybe just one um solo female founder I can think of um yeah that maybe goes back to the subconscious thinking that we might have.

42:14I also read about investors bias because most of the investors in VCs are men. They're basically biased towards investing in men. And I also read something that's really interesting, which is it's not the right thing because Boston Consulting Group, they did some studies on that. Women are better, are better founders. And how they measure that is how much women return per dollar invested compared to men. And I think the difference is like 80 cents for women and like 36 or 39 for men. I think that's interesting because I think maybe a part of it is just the risk management in general. I think especially we've seen in crypto where you can grow so fast, so quickly.

43:09And then actually then where do you go from there? I think for at least for me, I would optimize for longer term return survival versus maybe what is so immediate that can satisfy my so-called ego. So I think it's interesting. Maybe women tend to optimize the geometric mean of return, but the men would just kind of go for the arithmetic where, you know, 100 or zero, like I would, you know, I would still want to optimize for that. So basically, women are less money driven, at least in the short term, and are less likely to take like reckless risks. That's another thing I read, actually. That's why kind of a Madoff-like situation or, I mean, SBF, there was Caroline.

43:58But anyway, like, it's much less likely to happen if there is more women involved or if they are the ones who make the decisions because they think differently. I think so. I mean, I've seen firsthand, again, it's a generalization. And there is bias because there is more men in our industry or in general. But you do see when the market blows up, you know, you know, the high, there's only higher highs, there's no lower lows. And in this up only situation, I do see more men tend to get carried away with that because you're chasing some sort of ego, some sort of status. But at least for women, I think we hopefully are more rational in those situations thinking, you know, still be able to think clearly about the downside risk, even though maybe it's only upside for now.

44:54How important is money to you? It's an interesting question. I think I've been lucky that I never had to worry about money growing up. Um, and money to me is also some sort of, it almost feels like some sort of validation of how valuable you are or, you know, your work is. Um, so it's more of maybe seeking that sort of validation than to maybe improve my daily life. I don't know how much more you can spend on food or other things. I'm sure you can, but, um, but to me, I think it's important because it's at least to me validates how valuable or how much worth I am.

45:42Do you think it's the right kind of validation to seek? Yeah, I mean, that's something that I've been thinking about more so now. Essentially, you know, what are you really seeking in your life? What brings fulfillment or happiness? Is it money? Is it status? Is it, you know, what you built and how do you really evaluate that? I think it's just a more straightforward, more quantitative number that you can put on it. And obviously, I think all of us are sort of taught that way growing up. But, yeah, and I think even you speak to the crypto OGs who made, you know, a lot of money. what do they really want right now and what are they optimizing for right now.

46:34So I think the more you realize that it's not really the ultimate goal, then you start to reflect on what else is. What is it for you? I think after a lot of things that happened maybe in the last few years, ultimately it a lot of it is prioritizing health both physical health mental health your relationship others your family and that's that's already a gift in and of itself i know it sounds very cliche but right that's that's really the most important thing you can have and um and then mental health a lot of it comes from how you view your life um are you happy not because you've a certain amount of money, but are you really going towards the path that's most fulfilled for you, I guess?

47:31That's very interesting. When you say it sounds so cliche, but it's so true. And most of the people who come here, big entrepreneurs or crypto people, you go through these mega wealth swings, you make a lot, you lose a lot, it gives you a lot of perspectives. Yes. And also there's this thing where most people out there, they always say, oh man, if I had a million, I would do that differently. I would go travel. I would change my job or whatever. And then when you get to your first million or whatever amount it is, like you realize nothing changed. Exactly. And if you were not happy before that, you're not going to be happy after that.

48:18So basically you'd rather change your life before your first million, then think that the day you get there, something will change. And there's always this realization for all the people who come here. And for me, it was the same, which you go through all these things of, I want to build businesses on my twenties, or I want to make money. I want to retire before 30, blah, blah, blah. And then you realize it's lonely as fuck. It's boring as fuck. Yeah, what do you do after you retire at 30? And you're alone. Like everybody's working anyway. Like, so what's the point? Oh, spending 50, next 50 years on holidays, but who is going to come on holidays with me?

48:57No one. Everybody's working. Even the people who made it are working. Like, so you're just thinking like, what's the actual point? And one really, I always talk about that, but Jordi Alexander, he came on the podcast and he said, making money is good, but you should not make it too fast

49:14because there's these different kind of stages you go through. And like, if you make it too fast, then you will want to make even more and even more and you're going to end up blowing up. And even if you make it like too fast, you're going to be in this kind of zone, like limbo where like, I don't even know what the fuck I'm doing. I have imposter syndrome. There is all these weird things happening. And everybody comes back to the same thing, which is the simple things, as you said before. Oh, I have a nice coffee. I'm so happy. I have a nice friend. I'm so happy. Yeah. Ah, my parents are healthy and I can spend some time with them.

49:47I'm so happy. So I don't think it's cliche at all. I think it's just the truth. But a lot of people need to go through the whole process to just realize. It's true. That it comes back to the basics. I should be grateful that because so much things happen so fast, so many things happen so fast in crypto that you get to see so many different perspectives very quickly. um again i don't know if it's a blessing or a or curse but i think at least we know ourselves much better now you talked about mental health have you ever struggled with mental health um it's it's an interesting concept because again growing up in china it's sort of taboo right you don't really talk about it and i think one of the bigger culture shocks i have is just so how open that people in the Western world talks about it and then actually seeking, seeking not help per se.

50:43I think of maybe going through these therapy or coaching sessions as many as really maintenance. There's this, I don't know if you watch Rick and Morty, the pickle Rick episode that's pretty popular. Essentially, the therapist was telling Rick that you brush your teeth twice a day for maintenance, right? And you should do that, take care of your mental health as well. And I think that was sort of some sort of moment when I realized that, you know, it's not like you have to have a big problem for you to go seek some sort of improvement. and unfortunately I think it's still a lot more accessible at least in the US than here in Asia I know a couple founders that are working on similar projects in Asia, in Hong Kong, Singapore but yeah I think it's still more or less talked about here

51:49How do you deal with mental health challenges when you have an entire team that depends on you? Do you do it more the Asian way? I don't say anything. I don't show anything. Or do you go more the kind of candid, transparent way of like, I'm a human being, I also have my challenges, but kind of lead by example of like, you can be open about that. It's not because you have mental health issues that's going to be fired, right? Yeah, so it's an interesting question. I think also depends on your relationship with the specific people on your team. I can't force my way to them. So I think it really depends on how they feel about whether or not they're comfortable coming to me or maybe, you know, they talk to each other about some of the things.

52:40But in retrospect, I think I kept a lot of some sort of stress or struggles I have mostly to myself or maybe just within the founding team where we would share, especially in case of tragedy or whatnot. but I don't think we are as open as we probably would have been in a more Western setting perhaps because there's still that cultural aspect. But yeah, I think you should speak to your team and also just people who are unrelated to the situation, right? Someone who's professional as well that can perhaps help you look at this better. Yeah. So you mentioned a tragedy that happened, I think, about a year ago.

53:32Yeah. So Amber Group lost one of its co-founders, who was also a close friend of yours. And this is after this crazy bull market where people make a lot, lose a lot. So you have all these emotions coming together, right? How does losing someone so close to you change your views on the meaning of life? Yeah, I mean, I think I'm at least still processing. I don't think, I think grieving is processed, maybe it never ends, but it's helpful to reflect on it. to me I think it was just big realization that life is so fragile we I used to think you know I'm so young we're invincible we're healthy but it could be taken away so quickly and for really no reason at all life is not fair so to speak so I think coming to that realization then a part of is like, okay, what am I really doing in my life?

54:38I think a lot of decisions we made as a team, as a firm the last maybe during 2022 was more to chase some sort of statistics or some sort of status in a way. Maybe it was our VC investors, maybe it was the market, maybe it was where our competitors, where Sam SBA was already at that point. So I think that that was a lot of noise and destruction and then went into different directions and maybe what we really wanted to do and what we set out to do.

55:15So and with what happened with Titi and he was the one who I would say I was closest with. And Amber, he was the reason that I joined Amber in the first place. And that was shocking because you can lose such a bright mind that a lot of times I depended on in just, you know, in a day. And then it does help me reflect on what is it that I set out to do. It helped our team reflect on what is this business that we set out to do. and certainly put a lot of perspectives around not just business, but I think in your life, what are you really optimizing for? Is it your health? Is it your relationship with family?

56:03Because that doesn't necessarily last forever. I think that was the first time that I came so close to that realization. I've also had a friend of mine from high school that also passed away from a very sudden illness maybe a few years ago because we hadn't been speaking too much, even though we both lived in New York, I was thinking that, oh, I'll always have another chance to catch up with you. So, you know, I'll talk to you next time. But then one day I realized there's no next time. So I think that a lot of experiences like that make you realize the importance or sometimes the urgency of you really living the path that you want to because life is not forever.

56:52Are you living the path that you want to right now? Are you able to? What did you change concretely after this happened? I think I spent a lot of time reflecting at least upon everything that happened right in the last few years in doing some sort of reflection that I probably didn't do before. And as a firm, I think we also change directions, we let go of a lot of the peripheral business that we're building. And just be where and we're okay, just focusing on a core business with a much smaller team. And I think that changed a lot of perspective in that way. And, and to me, I think, also just changing a lot of the, even the habits, focusing on mental health, physical health.

57:43I started sleeping, you know, sleeping more at night, which I think is important. And also not going too extreme in situations, you know, pull all nighters, whatnot. I think that that definitely impacts your, your health and then spending more time and family. And I think that's also the part of the reason that want to stay in Asia and be closer to them. I'm the only child, so I'm very close to my parents. I just took them on a trip to Tokyo recently and just really cherish the time you have in that sense.

58:24You're a really successful young woman. I'm not sure about young anymore, but... I feel like I've aged, you know, four decades in the last four years.

58:40You're more mature, but you're still super young. Actually, when you told me you're aged the other day, I was like, oh man, still a baby. how do you deal with the fact that most men would probably find you intimidating in a more sort of dating environment? I think it's interesting. I'm sure a lot of them do, but it's also a great filter, right? I don't think I would want to speak to or spend time with people who can deal with their own insecurity and confidence. So, yeah. How have you dealt with your own insecurities? I think that's part of maturing. That's part of growing up. I think as I was growing up, and maybe because I'm the only child, I don't think at least us among our friends have very close relationship or, you know, siblings in that sense.

59:46And then, and in China is very heavy competition, right, for the best grades or whatnot. So always wanted to be the best because that signals, right, that I am the best. You know, I've scored the highest on the test or, you know, I'm the number one in my school or my city or in these math or physics competitions. So I always kind of seek that because I think that is some sort of, again, validation and it's very quantifiable. And then even maybe subconsciously choosing some of the career paths because it is the more popular or the better choice. So I think I've largely lived my life in that sense.

1:00:31then I at some point I think I realized that that's when I realized when I felt like seeking approval from others it's actually really just from myself because my parents have told me they're proud of me since day one they've never asked me to do a lot of these other things and I think it really stemmed from within and I think a lot of things that happened the last five years for me in crypto really made me, you know, the perspectives, the up and downs that we've seen in your life, realize that I think I really matured from that perspective. And knowing who I am, there's things that I like and I don't like and things I'm good at and maybe not so good at and accepting that.

1:01:16When I first started managing a team, I was very eager to get to know them all or trying to get them to like me and even change myself so much in my own style, management style, or personality to try to cater to them. And then that's not sustainable. I burnt out very quickly and I realized that ultimately I am who I am and maybe I cannot work well with everybody out there, but that's okay. You should build a team that works well with you, right? that shares similar culture or personality or ideals with you and can handle you as a manager. And maybe that means I'm not, maybe sometimes I would lose some good talent because that just didn't click.

1:02:04But you have to also understand that this is who I am and that's what's going to be sustainable going forward. So you said you always wanted to be the best when you were younger. and now you're managing teams. So this kind of always wanting to be the best and competing because that's how it is in China, right? Yeah. And now managing teams and being only surrounded with guys in the management team, you have to, basically you have to rely on your more masculine side a lot. how do you manage to stay feminine in a relationship? It's a great question because I don't think it started in crypto, like back on the trading floor.

1:02:55I think arguably it's probably even worse. It's no joke. I think my whole team in New York, at least, all men globally maybe wanted to their female. and I tried so hard to fit in, you know, being very bro with them, been to questionable venues with them and, you know, tried to outdrink all of them under the table to show that, you know, I can hang, you know, with the bro gang. And a part of me likes that. I know it's not like I hated all of it, but I think looking back, a part of me is also trying to prove to them that I'm a bro, right? even laughing at some sort of inappropriate joke sometimes on the trading floor and now thinking back that was me trying too hard to be a bro and I think after after I grow up a bit more I think now as I get older then I'm comfortable just being who I am maybe I do have the more masculine side just because who I am, but I don't shy away from the feminine side either.

1:04:07And being vulnerable is actually much harder than pretending to be strong all the time. And that's what I realized later on. So I think in a personal relationship, you know, with family, with friends or in a relationship, like I don't I think I stopped pretending or only emphasizing the one sidedness of myself. Yeah. so you still would ideally want in a relationship to be, to have a man who embraces masculinity and provides and protects you like, oh no, I want this, you know, equal thing. I mean, we could go very deep down this rabbit hole. But what's your perspective on that and your thought on that?

1:04:52I think it's just being able to be vulnerable to the other person. And I don't think it's a competition per se, you know, who's more masculine or who's more feminine. But I think it's important that both people really know who they are. So there's none of, there's less of that insecurity going on or everybody's comfortable and confident in terms of who they are. And that's, I think, the base of a healthy relationship. And you can express yourself the way that you want to. You don't have to think too much. You know, should I act this way or another? You can just be yourself. And I think even outside of a very, very intimate relationship, even in your daily lives, I think that's also a healthy way as opposed to maybe living to one persona of yours.

1:05:40Because, again, if you want to build this business for a long time, unless you have a distinct online persona for the sake of it, then I think I really learned to at least embrace who I am in all aspects. Last one on dating. I promise.

1:06:03Women are hypergamous in general. So they want to date or be or marry someone who earns more money or has a higher social status. How do you deal with that as a super high achiever woman? Actually, it's speaking to a lot of my friends who I guess also are what you call high achieving women. I think what we're optimizing for is very different. I don't think we just need to. We're chasing someone who earns more money per se. There's this baseline that I talked about, like someone who's sure of themselves, confident enough, which means that they can probably take care of themselves on their own. but also at least to me I think it took me some time to realize that maybe being with another super alpha high achieving person who doesn't prioritize me wouldn't really work because I don't think I would necessarily prioritize the other person right then if nobody like if I'm putting some I only have 24 hours a day my focus is purely on work and career then I think there is less aspect maybe to how much you put on the other person.

1:07:25So finding that balance, right, if both of you are optimizing for something else and who's really working on a relationship. And I think a lot of my friends, myself included, realize that we need to find someone who is also very happy to prioritize us or happy for our success in life as opposed to feeling intimidated about that. And their success, I think, you know, obviously I think as the other person, the other partner in a relationship, you also cheer for, but it doesn't mean that it has to be a competition per se.

1:08:06you love extreme sports i do i do you love crypto and extreme sports surprise big surprise why do you love extreme sports and adrenaline um as as crazy as it sounds i think a lot of times when i put myself in these extreme situations that my mind actually just shuts down i'm just enhancing my senses. I'm living the moment, really purely the moment, looking at everything, experiencing everything, as opposed to maybe thinking about so much else, you know, having all these programs running my background. And that to me is a very Zen moment. It's almost like meditation. So that's why I think I seek, you know, these sort of skydiving or skiing, bungee jumping or these sort of sports.

1:09:04Is it because of the kind of pleasure and adrenaline it gives to you or is it because you're trying to escape something? Oh, that's a great question. I don't think I've thought about it that way. I don't think I'm escaping something because the experience itself is not too long, right? There's always coming back to reality. but I think I've just really enjoyed the process of reminding myself that I'm so alive and then living the moment and sort of a meditative state where your mind is not going everywhere. You're just focusing on the beautiful things you see or the speed or the wind you feel on your face and that sort of sensation.

1:09:48And I think it's part of a reminder of how alive you are as well. Have you ever tried scuba diving? Yes. It's not extreme at all. It's not. But it's so peaceful and it's like a meditation. I love it. Yes, the breathing, right? Because you're just like, you're only here on breath. You're looking at another world. It's another world. Absolutely. That you didn't really think about much. You only look at what's on land, but under the sea, it's a whole other world and you appreciate life a lot more after that. What's the most extreme experience we've ever lived in this context of sports and adrenaline?

1:10:34Something memorable. I think my first skydive, my first jump was definitely very memorable. I think the subsequent times, I already know what to expect. So I'm focusing more on maybe looking at what's around me. But the first time is really about the sensation and what you remember from it. Also love kind of skiing the Elves, these really, really long slopes. And you kind of just go at it, not saying, you know, crazy speed, but feeling that wind on your face, hearing your own breath. And I think all of that is just, again, a reminder of how amazing life is and focusing on the moment, everything that you're experiencing.

1:11:22It's sort of like meditation where maybe the voice will tell you to focus on your breath or focus on all parts of your body, what you're feeling. But I think it's sort of tough for me to just sit here and listen to the voice and guiding and then do that. But much easier for me to feel that way in these situations. if you met your 18 years old self, the Annabelle who left China to go to the US, what would you tell her?

1:11:54I would tell her to, I guess, be more bold, to try to experience a lot more things and focus maybe a little less on grades. Like remind you back when I was 18, I was still wanting to be the best in my class, wanted the 4.0 perfect GPA in school because again I did because it's quantifiable and I like that I like perfection I guess. How did you feel when you got your 4.0 grade? There's just no other way no other way that I would have it and to be honest I probably spent a little bit too much time trying to seek that marginal perfection and maybe optimize a little less for the other things I could experience or do in college.

1:12:44Even though I do think I had a pretty full college experience, I've tried to join all these different clubs, sororities, fraternities, and met a lot of interesting people, smart people when I was there. But I do think I spent a little too much emphasis on that sort of perfect grade. So despite everything you've done, you still feel you haven't been bold enough and haven't tried enough things? I think so, because college is an amazing time where you just experiment. The point is to find yourself. I know probably everybody felt the same way. I wish they'd done more in college, care less about grades, did more experiences or have more experiments.

1:13:28Yeah, but I do think that was just a wonderful time to experiment with anything in your life. Yeah. What's your biggest prediction for the next 12 months? In the market? Any topics? Wow. I think there are some concerns I have for what might happen in the next 12 months in a more global scale. I think we, like I mentioned earlier, I think we're past that globalization, peace era, and now we're seeing a lot of regional conflict, a lot of geopolitical uncertainty. And I think me being from China, having family there, and then there's also a big focus on that. I don't think, you know, things necessarily would go bad in the next 12 months, but I think there's a rising concern over that.

1:14:23And I think that also prompts you to think about, you know, in a very different scenario, like I'm not saying there's World War III, But if there is more and more regional conflicts, how do you really live your life? You know, that's probably a very different path than you are currently on right now, optimizing for a very peaceful time. But I do feel like there's a lot more turmoil happening or boiling than maybe what people really realize. So I think that's a concern in which I think it's also interesting how crypto could come into play in these scenarios. So I think it added a different sense of maybe what we're building for.

1:15:08Maybe, you know, being a crypto bank, quote unquote, has more value than we would think of down the line. Not just people buying some shit coins to get rich overnight. Exactly. You know, go rich overnight or go broke the next day, right? Absolutely. So that's part of it. And I think in terms of broader market, next year is actually a lot more sort of like political events happening. I think with the election in the U.S., that might change a lot of the regulatory landscape for crypto, which set the precedent for regulations in the space globally. so the more you're involved in this business the more you realize that things are not so black and white right when you think we have nothing to do politics but maybe at the end everything is related to that in some sense so yeah I think that's also part of maybe seeing the world in a more mature lens amazing thank you so much for doing this thank you for having me I'm going to do this one.