E79: Meow from Jupiter: The Future Of Money And Communities

28:30Yeah, don't. Yeah. So figure out who you are and don't compare yourself to others because everyone is different, right? And everyone has different things that make them happy. Yeah, comfort zones and like, like happiness rules. It's not binary, right? It's not, I think the whole breaking rule is stupid, right? Because I am, there are certain things I'm very happy to break, right? For example, social norms, right? Like business strategy. I'll get a number, right? Now, there are a lot of social norms I have to break, right? For example, like, you know, like, like, I'll give a few, okay? Like business strategy, communication conventions, right?

29:01Like how to launch things, how to launch projects, how to communicate, right? I'm saying, you know, like relationships, right? Like relationship status. Those things like conventional relationship status. I'm happy to break those things, right? But the things I don't break, you know, like, I mean, I don't go out topless on Orchard Road or like, or Tom Square, right? and I'm saying, you know, right, things like that. I don't wear a tonk, you know, I wear it around, right? So, I mean, and I've never, I don't want to go to jail. So, I'm actually very happy now not going to jail, right? So, there are a lot of things that I do that are like very, very, very well within social norms, right?

29:37Whereas, I mean, some people would happily, you know, whereas some people, whereas some people are very, very happily, you know, go to, someone else might very, very happily, right? Go to a Times Square in a Tonk. But be terrified if you say, why don't you launch something this way? So I think everyone breaks their own rules in some way. Just find yourself. Just find an edge. So what you're saying is that it's good that we don't have too many zero IQ, ADHD, tornado cats out there, right? No, I'm just saying that. I mean, if that's your comfort zone, go for it. You know what I'm saying? But man, I do actually think it's a good thing that there are not too many of me.

30:19Yeah, seriously, you know? Right, yeah. I mean, think about it. We need America. We need Switzerland. We need Singapore. We also need, you know, like I think every country raise a role. Yeah. That's how I think about it. You know? Yeah. America would hate it if everyone was like America. They'd hate it. Then they have no one to compare themselves against, you know? Yeah. What is money? Energy. I, um... Energy. Money is energy. I came to a conclusion after many, after many long times. You know how we, you know how we always, you know how we were taught in school of money, right? We, we, we first, like, like, if you think of how we think of money, right?

30:58As a person, right? We first think of our money to think, you can buy things with, right? As a cash or whatever, you go to a store, you give them something by something, it's a million exchange, right? And then you start thinking, you start thinking of your livelihood, you know, you start thinking of your livelihood, you start like and you go to school you start learning about all kinds of theory of money whereas the millennial exchange has store value and everything right and yeah I think but I think all these I think what is actually amazing about crypto is that it has shown us that money is energy and anyone anyone can create money right if you have the right kind of energy behind it and the energy and a lot of the chemical energy right and the energy is actually largely made up of human energy.

31:45When you have a group of people who deeply believe in something, you know, and, and, and, and, and able and able to kind of put the amount of like conviction and energy behind it and stuff, then you get, then you're actually able to emerge money. Whereas, whereas, whereas, I think that's actually one, I think that's the main thing. Yeah. Energy. What's your definition of energy? Energy.

32:17human conviction. Like human conviction. Yeah. I think that's how I think about it. You know, when you have a, because for money to work, right, you really need a critical mass of humans to believe in it, to bet for it, to use it, and really be harried, right? That is actually the, because people keep trying to understand, because here's the thing, people keep trying to differentiate between gold and Bitcoin and USD and Memecoins and DeFi coins and UT coins and Uni and Jupe and everything. Am I right? You know? Right. However, I think one thing that we want to do is to get the first principles.

32:57Right. And if you cut across, if you just drop all these things that people are saying, right, and you try to think of what is the thing that unifies, like whether it's like Bitcoin or gold or US dollars or Jupe or Uni, right? And anything that kind of or even Weave or Dogecoin or like bonk and stuff, like money that survived a long short time, it always comes down to a group of people believing it, pushing it, owning it, holding it over a long period of time, promoting it over a long period of time. That's all it is. And that is energy. That's the meaning. We actually will look at things that don't last.

33:39For example, so many, right? when Mincoin is now, right? Anyone can come together and get a lot of energy, right? You know, and pump something 100 million. Everyone gets very excited, right? But the problem is that the energy disappears after a while, you know, because there's actually no real call, right? And it goes away, right? So just like the whole, so the initial rush of energy created a very temporal form of money, right? And then after hype is gone, the money goes away. you know? Yeah, but it's still money though. But here's the thing, it's still money though. I think another thing that's actually very important here, I want to push here, right?

34:17Is I want to push the idea that everything that's liquid, fungible, and exchangeable and stuff is money, right? You know, I think too many people try to say, okay, like, you know, too many people go like, hey, all right, this is money, this is not money, right? So let me propose something interesting, okay? Let me just, let's abolish all those notions. Anything that's fungible, exchangeable, and liquid is money. It can be a million coin they just want to for five minutes you'll die five minutes later right that's money why because you can easily transfer and transmit and actually anywhere that's money right you know it can be like gold or US dollar that's also money you know so I think that's actually important yeah because otherwise you keep trying to come up with like you know like a lot of like random like arbitrary guidelines you know about this is money this is not money you know money to be A or B or C you know what I'm saying no no yeah I think that's actually important yeah so that's actually one major thing I want to do right for the idea of money yeah I want to really create what what we call money literacy you know how you know how we talk about financial literacy in school right you know I mean actually we don't even really learn it in school financial literacy I mean we kind of learn like you know save your money interest rates and like you know put your money in the bank you know everything right we do save your bank bank account retire you know even to retire, if you make 5K a month, you should spend 3K, you know, all that kind of stuff, right?

35:45So they do actually go through that financial literacy review, right? But it's actually based on the old system, you know, right? It's based on a system where there's one single kind of money, you know, where you earn and, where you earn and, so that financial literacy is based on like, like for example, think about it, when you're in school and stuff and you're learning, when you're still a baby and stuff and you're in high school and stuff, do they say, hey, you know what, there's a world infinite kinds of money, you know what I'm saying, you know, right? what can do with those things? They don't.

36:09They say, okay, here is a suit. You have five Swiss francs. You have five Swiss francs. You know, you earn X amount of Swiss francs a day. Interested is blah. In Singapore, they don't go, they will go like in America, they go, oh, you earn dollars. You know what I'm saying? So all our financial literacy is based on the idea of them what being one money system. So, in a new model I'm proposing, right? Called money literacy. Right? I would like the whole world to rethink money. Okay. You know, to imagine a world with like infinite numbers of money, not infinite money, infinite numbers of money, right?

36:45And how would that world look like? What's their role in the world? You know, how do they contribute to money systems that they like? You know, how do they create new money themselves, right? How does all this money gets used in a wider context with all the other monies, right? And that's actually what I really want to do. I want to create a new kind of literacy and new kind of like framework. for the help, for the purpose of understanding, like, you know, loss of money. Because think about it, like, can you build a car if you don't understand a lot of physics? Can you build an airplane? You can't, right?

37:19You know, so similarly, similarly, if the world didn't understand, and it has to be important, right? If the world didn't understand loss of physics, right? Can we build airplanes? You know, can we build big buildings? We can't, we couldn't, right? So similarly, if the world doesn't understand loss of money, right? can we build a whole new financial system? Can we build a whole new financial? We can't, right? So it's actually really important for us to build this parallel world. You know, right? We have to actually re-educate the world to rethink all the laws of money. And that has never been taught before.

37:57Never, yeah. Why is it so much better to have an infinite amount of, I mean, infinite number of money? Kevin, do you like being in a prison or do you like walking around free? No, seriously. What do you prefer? Obviously, I like to walk around free. Do you think it's better that each and every country have their own, have the freedom to have their own currency, you know, versus like one central, one giant central nuclear welding forcing, you must use this currency. What's better? Crypto. Like, do you think it's better that people can actually start creating crypto, right? Or money? What's better?

38:29Clearly it's better, right? No. That's it. So, that is, because fundamentally, it's actually very important. is actually really important to understand, right? Now, because the ability for anyone to create their own money and have their money be integrated into other kinds of, all kinds of money, right? It's freedom. It's the ultimate kind of freedom. Guess what? Freedom. Just like how you wouldn't want, you wouldn't want one person, you wouldn't want one person and stuff to actually dictate, you know, what you cannot do and stuff. In this case, similar. You want to allow everybody in the world to have the education, literacy, and freedom, and power, to create the own company.

39:06So it's sort of a capitalism of money creation. And then the best form of money win, right? The one with the most energy and the most attention win. Precisely. And then therefore the world becomes better because people need to compete for their own money to be better. Precisely. That's how it works, right? And that's the way it will work. And that's the way it will work. We are headed to a world of billions of chains and billions of monies and everything, right? And to cater to this new world, it will come, right? It will come, right? And then to cater to this new world, we really need to actually rethink the fundamentals of money.

39:40We're kind of seeing that already. I mean, there's some people talking about social tokens, right? But now we have these meme coins and we have celebrities launching their own coins. And there is a lot of criticism around that. But it's kind of what you're saying is they're basically launching their own money and trying to put energy and attention around that. And it cannot be criticized, obviously, except if there's bad intention behind it. But that's what we're seeing now. I mean, honestly, I think this is something I talk about a lot in my tweets and essays. I have this thing called PVP versus PPP, right?

40:12So basically, I think it's up to the... Fundamentally, I think this... I strongly believe that if you have the... I strongly believe that if you have good intentions and the rich and everything and stuff, you should actually try to do something. You know what I'm saying? All kinds of stuff. Time-wise, I don't know, but you should try, right? But... the key thing is us as a community, right? What kinds of behaviors do we accept? You know, if we accept that, if we happily accept that, if we happily accept bad behaviors, right? Simply because, like, if we happily accept projects that, you know, like allow influencers to dump, right?

40:58Just to get a pump, right? If we happily allow, if we happily allow, if we happily go, hey, you know what? oh, this guy looks dubious, but he's famous, so we just let him do what he wants and stuff, right? If we as an industry allow that, right, then whose fault is it? It's our fault. It's kind of stupid because I feel like, it's kind of stupid because like, you know, it's like, if you are enabling, if you are enabling a bad behavior, right? Like whose fault is it? Right? It's probably your fault. So I feel like what I think is important, Right now, it's not to criticize them, you know, or anyone who does bad things, right?

41:40The critical thing here is to actually look at ourselves and ask you, what behaviors are we, you know, approving of, enabling? It's very, very important, you know? It's very, very important. Because if you're, for example, your parent, right? Your parent stuff. It's like, if a kid is shit, right? You should probably ask yourself what you're enabling. Of course. And I feel like it's very similar in this case. You know, if we allow people to get away with things just because they're famous or blah, blah, blah, it's always convenient, then it's our fault. It's a stop, you know? Yeah. And it's definitely one of the problems that we have in crypto since the beginning, right?

42:17One of the biggest critics of the crypto industry since pretty much forever is that it's an insider's game. And in that sense, it's not that different from traditional finance, which we're trying to replace, right? So the classic mindset is, I need to get in early and dump on someone else who is late to the party and is my exit liquidity. The awesome thing about this is that I think if you look at the really good projects, I think at some point in their life, they got out of their scope. They got over that hump. And then whether it's Ethereum or Bitcoin or Swana, there was definitely a lot of like, in all these projects, they'll definitely like first of all I think in all these projects the call was amazing right Bitcoin had an amazing call call group of people who really fucking can right Ethereum had a group of people who really fucking can as well right Swana had a really good group of people who really can as well I mean if Swana was doing obviously as a I mean across all these three networks and stuff there's obviously a lot of history right and history and characters and everything and stuff right but end of the day across all these things there's actually an ecosystem of people that really really just cat for the project right and i could really look past that um i could really work for that for that you know so i feel like um and similarly i think so i think that's actually one thing that i think um but similarly i think you have a lot of projects and stuff that don't have that quality right so i feel like i think so i feel like um i mean so i feel like what's really important here is that as participants in the space as investors and builders in the space we really work with teams and projects and stuff that really have proven that they really care about the project, they really care about the space and they really care about each other.

44:05Because if we just jump from project to project and start looking for the pump, then we end up with that. We end up with that dynamic whereby 99 % of the space is just all about a quick pump. It is. So let's talk about a few definitions here. to make sure people understand, right? PvP. What's the main problem in this environment that we call PvP? Players versus players. Oh, the best example is Counter-Strike. Counter-Strike? Yeah. Have you played Counter-Strike? I have. Yeah. Counter-Strike is a great game because it's PvP, right? The rules are simple, right? You know, I kill you, you kill me.

44:43It's all about like, who can get the shot in first at the right time and to kill someone, right? That's a PVP game, right? And in some sense, in some sense, that unfortunately for many, many, many, like 99.9 % of the community these days is that way, right? It's all about, okay, I know there's a very big distrust going on in the community, right? Sometimes it's between the users and investors and users and team of ICVerset and stuff or something just like the devs and everything, right? whereby the community fundamentally distrust each other they distrust the investor they distrust the devs right so everyone's a trigger alert right on like everyone's a trigger alert going like okay who is going to dump first let me just let me just let me just like play the game off let me just play along and stuff but all my finger is always on the sell button right because I do it's always about trying to me dumping on you first right so that's PvP right But how, that's what we've been having until now.

45:51How did we go from zero to 2.5 trillion in market cap for crypto in a PVP environment? Yeah, because the ones that survived, the ones that survived, right, led the way. You know, we didn't. I mean, like I said before, I think one thing is very important here is to understand that like not all is that way, right? I mean, Bitcoin didn't become a trillion dollar protocol, by that behavior. Bitcoin became a trainer protocol by having a really big network of people who built for the protocol, who invested in it, who evangelized it, who hodled it, and who tell the whole world about it. PVP doesn't mean not selling, by the way.

46:32Selling and taking profit is a very healthy and normal cycle. Even speculation is very healthy because it creates price action. All very great. I mean, I run a training platform. It doesn't speculate. I'm dead. Full stop, right? You know, but it's a difference between trading something and trying to and trying to win at the expense of other people. You know, there's a big, big, big difference. You know, seriously, right? And what you see is that you see in projects, right? That even if they grew really, really big, right? You know, many projects, I can't say the name, but they always are in the end.

47:13You know, right? when the project doesn't engender a very healthy dynamic between the team and the investors and the users and the communities holding just dice over time. I'm not kidding. No harmony. No alignment. No alignment, right? So, yeah. So now, what is PPP? If you have to explain it to your mother. A garden. A garden. You know, a garden. A garden means that like a garden, a garden. I think PPP is like garden. You know, it's like you start with some seeds and you have nothing but a patch of grass. You have all the, you have all the, you have all the nutrients in there. You have all the, everything's there.

47:59You know, right? The energy is there. We talk about energy, right? You know, the energy, you have energy from the sun, you have everything and stuff. How do you grow it from nothing into a vibrant garden? You know, they can survive on, thrive on. And obviously people might need to eat the fruits now and then, right? They need to, no, seriously, they do, right? They take vegetables now and then, trim the grass, trim the wheat, but that is what PPP is. You know what I'm saying? Right? That's what PPP is, you know? Like a PVP is like two percent just fighting each other, you know, for the share of the land and nothing ever grows because they're too busy fighting.

48:33You know, right? PPP is like, let's grow this garden together because if this garden surces and stuff and we have a great, like, we have a great balance between taking taking what we need right and replenishing it right you know taking and we take a poop right you know we put it back to the soil you know things like that you know right and it's all about ecosystem right how do we create a healthy ecosystem you know that's what I care about the most yeah and I really really think that I really really think that like projects that win are those that manage to engender distrust over the long run you know yeah do you want to explain the concept of finite and infinite game Oh, this is such a good one.

49:15I mean, is there a, like, like PVP are finite games for sure. Because PVP is where everyone tries to not be the last guy, right? Everyone wants the last guy to lose, you know? Everyone wants the last guy to be as in liquidity, right? There's a PVP game, right? Now, in the PVP game, obviously, it's a finite game because once the last guy is in it's over you know in a PPP environment where everyone is trying to make everything work and grow together right it's an infinite game think about it is there any limit to what Bitcoin could potentially be? no nothing seriously nothing there's nothing there's nothing stopping like there's nothing stopping Bitcoin Ethereum Solana and hopefully Jupiter right you know from becoming anything going to be you know because end of the day because at the end of the day we want the last guy, good communities, want the last guy that comes in, right?

50:15To have good time, you know, to win, to be successful, you know, to be part of the community, to make it. How is that different from a public good? Or should the goal for any of this system to become a sort of public good? No, fuck that. I mean, fuck that. I'm not into that shit. We're capitalists, baby. We're capitalists, man. What's it about, bro? No, it's because, guys, the reason is very simple. I feel like it goes to loss of money because we're creating new money. Right? Because when you create, because again, because again, you are creating new money, right? In a new money system, when the last guy makes it, right?

50:52Everyone wins together. You sense? Right? Fiat in some sense is a PVP environment, you know? Because you have X amount of dollars and stuff and you're trying to, your PVP, the thing is this, fiat is fundamentally a PVP system, right? Because you have a fixed amount of, you have a, Okay, let me say it. Fiat is fundamentally a PVP system because you have a fixed amount of fiat that gets distributed to the people and everyone has to fight, you know, for their share of it, you know? And then even when there's new fiat being printed, it's not distributed to the people per se. It's just this whole entire centralized system, you know, for distributing that.

51:32So it's a PVP system. However, crypto is fundamentally and can be said well as a PPP game. And that's the fundamental difference because we are creating new money for ourselves and benefit us. How is that different from a zero sum and positive sum game? It's no different. Same, right? It's the same thing. I think we have to get out, we have to build systems that become like more than what it could be, you know? Yeah. So that's beautiful in theory, but now if you add crypto cycles, which are really rough, right? Does it not make PPP game kind of an utopia? Because you're saying the last one wins, but like with these cycles that are crazy, where you have mega drawdowns, there is someone who maybe doesn't have a long-term view enough who will get wrecked, right?

52:20Even if the intentions initially are good in the system. PPP doesn't mean that one wins. That's no such thing. I mean, we're not building a utopia here. We're not being a utopia here. We are building, it's quite factual. PPP means that all participants, all participants, right? try their best you know to engender an environment where everyone wins it's not about promising a certain like delusion whereby no one sells and no one doesn't win that way you know and but you do see that by the way by the way PPP is a fun thing PPP cultures are formed not in the not in the peak but in the bear always right now when whenever there's a in fact whenever there's a pump right then actually all the all the PVP people come in and when there's a downturn right the PPP people stay you see what I'm saying you see what I'm saying right you see what I'm saying and stuff right like I tell one thing and there's not many left not many a percent there's not many left I have a lot of examples of this thing mainly from Ethereum and Soana right I mean I can tell one thing it's like the success of all these like communities were not from the pump you know were from a downturn right it was from the pump and dumped everyone left and then people go oh let's go there's this really strong go to people that formed.

53:38And those are the PPP ones, you know? Yeah. How do we shift the entire industry from a PVP to a PPP mindset? First of all, we're going to be very comfortable with failure. Right? With Dalton's. Yeah, it's important. Like, I think we're going to be very comfortable with like Dalton's and Red Candice and realize that without those Red Candice and stuff, we will never actually find out who is PPP and who is PPP. right it's in those downturns that we find the goal if you may right that's the first thing the second thing is that we as an industry have to stop being accepting of behaviors that are clearly adversarial like for example like you know giving influencers a ton of tokens even and we don't care they dump on us right or for example like you know having a ton of tokens that are intransparent and we sell on the site and then and you know so and so forth.

54:36I think we need to stop just, we need to stop accepting these behaviors just because they pump us all. For example, accepting poisonous characters into the game, right, you know, just because they pump our bags, right, you know. So I think, I think, I think, unfortunately, I think our industry is very, very, very scared of downturns, you know. So, and it's what we were saying earlier, right, it's like if you have like, you know, very high expectations, then, you know, then you have low resilience, right, you know. So I think it's very important for us to have like much, much higher resilience.

55:09And secondly, I think be less accepting of bad behaviors. And then, and also like, you know, not accept people just because they give us a temporary pump. Yeah. You have a super interesting analogy for resilience. Redwoods. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why should founders study closely the Redwoods of the Sequoia National Park? Oh, I love this example. So a lot of people ask me like who my role models are. right? And then they were expecting me to say someone famous, right? Or like old school, classic, you know? And I always say this, I always say that my role model is like those giant redwood trees in the California park, right?

55:49Because if you go to California, there's this Sequoia National Park, you see these like redwood trees. They're fucking huge, right? And then you can even go inside of them, right? And then they've been there forever, right? And the reason why they are my and the reason why they are my role model is quite simple it's because so every so the way the way it works is that every few decades right or every few whatever there'll be a big fire right that engulfs the whole forest and then so fires are usually seen as being bad for the trees right you know but in this case it's great for the it's great for the trees why firstly they clear away all the bugs So all the pesticides and all the bugs that go kill the fire.

56:36Second of all, the weeds go away. So that's to compete with them for the nutrients on the ground. And thirdly, the foliage and stuff, it's all cleared up as well. All burned away. So more energy can shine through to them. And this execution in crypto, right? Execution in crypto, every few years or even every few months these days, there'll be a big fire that just comes in, right? And then we are usually so scared of the fire. We go, oh my God, red candles. Oh my God. But we should learn to, wow, okay, it's actually pretty good, right? I mean, think about it. The last fire that happened, right?

57:14Swerved away a ton of bad characters in the face, right? I mean, can you imagine us today if those bad characters are still around? You really can't, right? You know? So in some sense, I think that's great because I think number one, redwood trees teach us not to be scared. of fires. Yeah. Right? Because they can be really, really great. Now, but I think it's very simple, right? How do you survive a fire? You know? Right? How do you become a railroad tree and not survive the fire? Because I mean, you can say, I mean, you can say, oh, you can say, oh, you wonder about blah, blah, blah, being great, but what if you die in the fire?

57:50Right? You're over, right? So, the second thing, how do you not die in the fire? You know? Three things. How does railroad trees not die in the fire? Right? Three things. Number one, number one, there's a lot of resin R-E-S-I-N in the material so what does it mean that it's fire resistant so that gives the whole trunk a certain amount of fire resistant so it doesn't get burnt so easily right secondly they have a lot more liquid they store a lot more liquid get it? liquidity right so they store a lot more liquid so it's more likely to survive the let's say to be burnt right and they're big enough right so they can still withstand the fires that people can't withstand so I'm like to me I love that I fucking love that because it's like it's like it just describes really well the core ideas that you need right number one you must make sure that you operate in a way where you're fire resistant you're downturn resistant right you know and secondly you need to make sure that you have a certain amount of attention or brand presence such that you and then ecosystem needs you in a certain way so that even when you have temporary setbacks you won't die right and thirdly you need to have liquidity literally liquidity right and then like strong capital flows and everything and stuff so that you know you can survive whatever comes to hell right yeah so I feel like that's actually to me it's almost like a perfect like analogy you know for how to for what a project or team should be doing or even an investor should be doing you know in the cycle so I think all said and done right and lastly lastly so firstly don't be a few of five years right because it can be really good for you if you survive it right once you survive it and secondly it's like i think you also taught me like what are the key qualities you need you know to survive you know and thirdly and the most one and thirdly and most importantly i think um they um they teach me to be um they they teach me that like um like to be resilient you know it's like so every every time i um every time i think of a a setback or if I didn't do that well in something or I fall behind something or someone has better product or I get a really bad tweet.

1:00:03I think it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. You know, just be a Redwood 3. You know what I'm saying? And this too shall pass. You know, yeah, so that's it. That's why Redwood 3 is my role model. I really, really think that beyond any, beyond any, like, you know, any temporary person who lives for like, who is successful in business for like 30 years or whatever. I mean, these fuckers, they live for thousands of years, man. There's something there, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So you talk a lot about resilience, right? And high expectations. Correct, correct, correct, yes. And one of the things that is really interesting is something that you developed, a philosophy of zero expectation.

1:00:44Yeah, yeah, yeah. Call it zero, right? Zero, zero, zero. Zero expectations, zero promises and zero ego. Just pure zero IQ participation, crypto retardation in its purest form. Zero culture is the much needed counterculture to the moon only culture that's prevasive throughout crypto. A culture that thrives regardless of green candles in hand or red candles in the ass. Why is it so important for the future of our industry to embrace the zero culture? Again, I don't think Aaron should embrace it, but I think you should embrace it. You being whoever is listening.

1:01:47You know, actually think that helps. I don't think it helps, right? I think what actually, because I think that kind of like, that kind of culture of like, trying to make everything move, you know, creates expectations. And then the moment those expectations are not met, right, you know, then the heart gets broken and the resilience gets broken, right? Which is why I think for me and stuff, I think it's very important for me, right? To really push the idea of like zero promises. I mean, I really don't make promises. You know what I'm saying? The only thing that I promise is that we're going to try our best and we're going to have fun.

1:02:24We're going to do it together as a community, right? So those are things that, but beyond that, I don't promise anything, right? And also zero expectations. I think internally and stuff, I don't have any expectations. You know, I just do. And I think doing that is actually very important because I think, I think actually, I genuinely think that the industry will be better, right? You know, if all of us like stop creating an expectation that, okay, everything's going to moon, everything's going to moon and stuff, right? You know, I think, I really think that that really sets us out for a lot of disappointment and failure.

1:02:53And yeah, so I think it's important. And also as individuals, as investors, right? You know how we always talk about how the best time to buy is on the high and the best time to buy is like, you should really like, you know, most people buy the top and start the bottom, right? Which you should do the way around. There we are. Might also say the high. Much harder to do. And the reason is simple, right? But interestingly, right? If you embrace a zero mindset, right? you might actually make it, you might actually find it easier, you know, for you to actually, you know, execute on that. You know, because when things are high, you don't go, oh my God, it's going to move even higher.

1:03:30You take the profits you need, right? And then, and then, and then, and then when it goes low, you go, ah, everything will die. You have, okay, you just bestow it. I believe in this thing. I'm going to go in thing without any, with zero promises. Then you go in too, you know? Yeah. So I think, I think similarly, so I think I'll say is this, right? Is that certainly, I think that's helped me a lot. I think when when Jupiter was started Jupiter was really started at the bottom. You know I think really at the bottom right when everything was a shit. You know when we started we said okay let us like double down you know on building on building the best thing we can.

1:04:01Let us like not worry too much about volumes and there was like one whole year where my volumes were total shit. We just didn't think about it. Just go execute you know. Yeah. Important. Moon boys right? What what are they seeking? what are the what is the mood boy seeking oh um certainty certainty certainty dreams and hopes and stuff yeah and attention right most of them they're just playing the game of attention right and the reason i'm talking about that is because you said i mean you are very good at the attention game right but you wrote attention is the most powerful thing in the world use it well you can change the word correct use it negligently you can waste your life use it poorly you will steer into Abyss, use it badly, you can fuck up everyone.

1:04:49You can fuck everyone up. Moonboys, right? Can you develop on that? Sure. I think it's not what Moonboys per se when I wrote that. You know, you can, for example, I mean, think about it, right? It's like, who were the best attention players in the last cycle? SBF, Doguan, Shuju, all these guys, right? You know, they were the best attention players, right? And then, I don't actually think they used the attention in a very responsible way. You know, and I think that created a lot of pain for everybody, right? So they got everyone. I mean, who can forget all those like tweets where they basically promised the moon in their own way, right?

1:05:31You know, some promised the super cycle, some promised a magic fiat system that can generate infinite 20 % growth, right? You know, some promise that crypto is going to be, you know, save the world immediately if you just gave it all to him. So I feel like all of them were able to use attention in a very powerful way to capture, to get the value of people and do that. But obviously it didn't turn out too well. So that's what I think. As soon as I think what's actually really important, so I think what's actually really important is kind of be able to be able to use the attention harness it effectively you know and not to ruin and that's the reason why I think zero is a very important mindset right you know like how do you how do you kind of like rally attention without promising the moon get it yeah that's what I think is very important for me anyway I think that's what I do I try to do that a lot I think for me my main thing is this right it's like how do I get the attention I need for what I want to do, right?

1:06:45You know what I'm saying? But not promising the moon. But it's much easier to get the attention when you promise the moon, which is the dream of everyone, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then, that's also easy, right? You know, like, you know, we don't do easy things here, you know? It's too easy, man. It's not even fun. It's too easy. Okay, okay, okay. Okay, think about it. Now, imagine basketball, right? 5B is zero. You have five fucking people on the court, right? Your opponent is zero. no one in the court 5v0 is that fun? it's not fucking fun man you know so it's like and you get bored after a while right that is kind of what promising wounds are like you know right it's just like not fun it's just not fun everything and it doesn't last because you get bored of the game you know yeah so I think what's actually a lot more interesting is that can you build attention can you can you rally people without promising the wound much more interesting do you think we learned from last cycle?

1:07:41every cycle we learn a little bit. Just a little bit. You know, I think last cycle, what you see is that this cycle is that there's way more decentralized activity. Ah, am I right? There's way more decentralized activity, right? A lot more activity happening in cycle is actually on decentralized networks. You know what I'm saying? I mean, obviously, the majority of the trading is still happening on centralized networks. Right, you know? But I think one thing that you see is that there's actually a lot more awareness that like you you shouldn't like center to like, you know, like when someone owns a massive amount of funds and stuff, that is a problem, you know?

1:08:18So you see, you definitely see a much higher level of like attention around like, like a number of things like custodies and like rep assets and everything and stuff and proof of custody, proof of assets and everything. Yeah. So you do definitely see that. But other things, kind of. Yeah. We all, but the way I think about it is that we are like, our industry is a really rebellious kid, you know, who will learn their lessons, but slowly and slowly and slowly. It'll be many, many, many, like it'll be many, many, many evolutions before our industry, you know, gets to where it wants to be. Yeah. But we learn.

1:08:52We definitely learn. Yeah. One of the best ways to grab people's attention in a world where attention is so scarce. Actually, sorry. So one thing to, I want to do an earlier point, right? Is that that's actually, that's actually why I think the current cycle is a lot more uneven and a lot less, you know, like a lot less like straightforward than people want it to be. It's because I think we, the world is still like scarring, you know, from the previous cycle, you know, and they are still like hesitant to really go in, you know. I think that's the reason why, I think that's the reason why I think, you know, like this cycle looks a bit different from other cycles, you know.

1:09:30Yeah. You see a lot of like smaller market things getting, you see a lot of smaller market tokens getting traction, you know, but then you see and a lot of activity on those ends, you know, but you really haven't seen the same kind of like massive movement in terms of the large caps. Where do you think it's going to come from? Do you think people are too traumatized from last cycle? Oh yeah, for sure. 100%. I still think so. How do we help soothe the pain and get more people in? PPP. I'm not kidding. I'm pretty serious about this. I really think that if the world, if the mainstream and the regular people starts to see crypto not as a PPP game, right?

1:10:12You know, where everyone's out here to just scam their shit, right? I'm fucking serious, man. Like, guys, I mean, if you want, I mean, just get real for a moment, right? Now, we, I mean, the PPP thing is not a utopian, it's not a utopian, like, you know, socialistic bullshit, man. It's like, if you want the retail to eventually pump your back, right? You know, right? And you convince them that, well, crypto is not full of shit. I'm serious so when I say PPP people think that I'm referring to something like utopian like it's actually very concrete right you know if you want people to come in and pump their bags and stuff you better pump their bags first you know right but I think if there's this like overwhelming perception of crypto at the PVP environment I think it's very very hard you know to pump our bags yeah very hard long term wise anyway yeah one of the best ways to grab people's attention in a world where attention is so scarce is memes and now we have financialized memes with meme coins.

1:11:12Why do you call meme coins the purest form of money? First of all, I want to say something. I think all kinds of meme coins. All coins are meme coins. Like I said this thing, gold is a meme, Bitcoin is a meme, USD is a meme, right? Jupe aspires to be a meme as great as all these OG memes, you know? Why? Why do you say that every coin or every money is a meme. Because ultimately, what's a meme? A meme is something that, let's go with a meme, right? A meme is something that everyone agrees on and understands and agrees on, right? That's a meme, right? Every religion is a meme, right? I mean, we don't have to get religious here, okay?

1:11:53But we can all agree. No, no, no. JP said the same as you yesterday. Every religion is a meme. Like, he went into like, absolutely. And then he was like, I don't want to get people angry, but it's true. Like, people who understand me. You know, we don't even have to get angry. it's a fact right like it's a fact that every Christian needs to fucking believe that like you know Jesus Christ is like that on the cross if you don't believe that idea and stuff you're not a Christian not a real Christian anyway so you have to really believe that shit right you know right they just say shit oh shit nevermind but it doesn't matter if you are if you are like that's the definition of being a Christian right you have to and whatever you call it you can call it a fact you can call it it's a meme end all day right it's like where a critical mass of people or believe in something, right?

1:12:37And same thing, right? We all believe that, you know, gold has value. There's nothing intrinsically valuable about gold, right? Because we all believe that gold has value, right? We all buy gold. We all sell gold. We all store gold, right? You know what I'm saying? And why? Because we also believe in the fundamental meme. So the fundamental meme of gold is that, okay, you can't trade new gold, you know? But of course, once that fundamental meme is broken, what happens? If someone, for example, some alchemist, boom, new gold. If someone finds a duck, a goose, that lays golden eggs, that meme is over, right?

1:13:09And that fundamental thing is over, then gold will just lose it. Because gold has lost its fundamental meme. Right? You know? So same thing with Bitcoin, right? Bitcoin's fundamental meme is that it has the store value. You know? So as long as you have enough people who believe in that, right? You know, in that notion, instead of Bitcoin will always be money. You know? Right? Same thing as all the, so every sister, same as your dollars, right? You know? Right? I mean, I don't go there but, you know, the US dollar is similarly helped by a similar meme, right? That the US dollar would be it's like the most secret and the most powerful and the most like and the most most stocked media exchange, you know, right?

1:13:47And it would always be the case because, you know, you have this, you know, the power, the entire power of the US government and everything backing it up, you know? Yeah. So I think that's a US dollar meme, right? So I think every, every, every coin is backed by a meme. Right? And then I think, so it's actually really important for you, for anyone to kind of understand that. Yeah. And I think that is actually why I think, I think every coin is a meme coin. Think about it. Because every coin and every dollar and every money system is backed by a certain fundamental meme. That's why every coin is a meme coin.

1:14:25People like to over, I'll give a simple example, right? About that. People talk, people like to differentiate between meme coins and utility coins, right? I mean, which is, I call it complete bullshit. Now, in fact, the utility contributes to the meme. Not that way around, right? Now, how many people do you think buy Sol, right? You know, for the purpose of using it, right? You know, if you only buy Sol for the purpose of using it, and so, trust me, Sol will be like, I don't know, very little. Very little, of course. Of a single Ethereum, right? No, no, that's not the case. but the utility of soul right contributes to the meme of soul get what I'm saying right so ultimately everything that we do whether it's like everything we do as a community and stuff everything we do and stuff is to contribute to the meme so at the heart of the currency it's not utility it's the meme you know you build culture culture with meme right you know everything so at the end of the day every currency every token every money system is all about finding that fundamental meme, you know, and really, really like enhancing that fundamental meme.

1:15:36So that's what I deeply believe in. Yeah. That's a key point actually for a lot of founders joining the space, right? Who don't understand that. They say, oh, but look, we have this TVL or we have this utility or we're doing this thing that's better than the other. Why is this worth more? And actually we had this conversation, you and me with Raul Pal, where he asks you, how does a protocol that's worth$10 billion keep its value over time, right? Yeah. And you answered that the fundamentals was just giving a non-zero value and all the premium on the top was basically attention, right? Or the meme you're talking about, right?

1:16:12The meme, it's more about reinforcing the meme, right? It's like good currencies, like I guess I'm right, it's like good currency, right? More and more and more people, I just think, I love Bitcoin as an example, right? Because I think a lot of people get triggered when they call Bitcoin a Bitcoin. I love that. I love triggering people, you know? Right? But, nah, I'm just joking. Not joking, I don't know. But anyway, I think, I think, think about it, right? It's like the fundamental, what's the fundamental mean of Bitcoin? You know, is that it's a store of value, right? Make sense? It's a fundamental, right?

1:16:43The fundamental mean of Bitcoin is a store of value that is a better store of value than gold or USD and everything, right? It's a fundamental mean. So how does Bitcoin store its value? How does Bitcoin is a trillion dollar protocol, right? you know, like, it's actually extremely simple. More and more and more people must believe their fundamental meme over time. That's it. Stop. Over. Done. That's why Michael Saylor is so good, you see. Michael Saylor just fucking stuck to his guns, man. Threw ups and downs and everything, right? He became, the guy earned his fucking strides, man. Absolutely.

1:17:17I'm telling you. So similarly, I think similarly, I think similarly for, I mean, Go is actually amazing, right? Because like, you know, I think, I think, you know, like governments or every time a government stopped out gold, demanded gold, wanted gold and stuff, that meme grew. That's it. So every single money system must have a fundamental meme. And that meme and the way the value remains or grow is in more and more and more people converse to the meme. It's a religion, bro. You know, right? That's the key learning actually. Probably for a lot of people, it's the fundamentals you said contribute to the mean but are like just a basic part yeah yeah yeah and it's so important and you gave an example of Louis Vuitton bag right do you want to explain that actually let us take a little more fun fuck Albie let us take a little more fun fuck it let's just go on let's just go on man let's go on since we're here fucking let's just go on that's how Jesus Christ okay let's talk about Jesus Christ no no really serious fuck it I said let's go on fuck it Alright Now Remember how we talked about earlier About how like The fundamental meme The fundamental meme Of Christianity Right Is that This is that for you Right You know And everything that So everything that Everything that Everything that Think about it Every single thing Is built around that fundamental meme You write books You create stories You create endless stories For why there's a case To justify that Right You go to You go to You sing songs And every single fucking song Right It's about God loves you, right?

1:18:52And Jesus has a cross for you. And blah, blah, blah. You read the whole Bible, you read everything. So everything is constant. And you go to church, right? And the community, right? The community all relates around everything, right? Make sense? So what you're really doing, right? Is that you're creating the full stack, you know, of like narrative, community, culture, songs, commercial, blah, blah, blah, right? To help that fundamental meme. You know? That's the fundamental meme. Okay? That's actually really, really, really important. You know, right? They're really, really important. And that's what I think it's all about, right?

1:19:24So I actually think there's successful projects where there's, again, Reddit, Ethereum, Bitcoin, hopefully Jupe. You know, Jupe is a bit too young right now to kind of say things. But certainly, I think the whole point here for us is to really understand that every token that's fundamental meme. And some tokens, the fundamental meme is utility, right? And okay, it's great. It's great. I mean, okay, it's good for you, right? but it's just there's just one part of it right I mean so sound tokens your fundamental game is utility okay great you know cool that's your meme I wanted to ask that because if we take Bitcoin is a good example but it's kind of like commonly accepted now and growing Litecoin was a good example because Litecoin became really big because it was the silver right the silver to gold but was not doing anything right so it shows that and then some other protocols come and say yeah but me I'm doing something useful for the space and have fundamentals and have tvl but like look they had the better meme therefore more people bought and even myself when i was 2017 buying some coins i bought litecoin because it was the silver of gold right the silver of bitcoin or the silver of crypto i feel like so so so the problem with that is how does the space move forward if people focus more on the meme than on the actual utility and advancement of the financial system right because at the end of the day you need to have something that is improving what we're using today the the biggest fucking the biggest fucking delusion that that the biggest fucking delusion that people have is that they have this fucking delusion that's one or the other you know or like utility utility or meme come on bruh give me a fucking break man it's like sorry can i swear it's like why why do you think like like like why do you think uh like like think think think the best things work right you know when when the when they encounter each other right you know like like for example do you think do you think okay put it in that's christianity right do you think do you think if it's just one person going around and talking about meme and stuff would work if there wasn't entire system of churches of of of churches or sermons of songs and books and everything supporting, you know, that meme, it wouldn't work, you know?

1:21:43You actually need all that utility to support that meme. Full stop, done, over. You need that, right? So very similar, right? Now, but again, do you think without that meme, people would just gather randomly to do shit? They wouldn't do that, right? You need that, you need a central unifying thing, right, you know what I'm saying? For people to kind of gather and do stuff, right? Now, so it's exact same thing, right? You know, for say Ethereum, right? Like, yes, you need Ethereum as a symbol, as a logo, as the meme, right? As the world-computer meme, right? And I'm saying to keep on, to unify people and add value and the meme forward.

1:22:20But it's only everything else. You need a community, you need AdCon, you need DefCon, you need the ER20s, you need all that kind of activity, right? I'm saying to do that. And it's complementary. But again, if you take that middle thing out, if Ethereum didn't grow in value as a meme and stuff, would people do anything? None. Zero. Zero. Nothing happened. Swana, same thing, right? same thing as well, right? So in many, many ways, right? It's a virtuous cycle, bro, right? You have the meme that unifies, right? You know, and that creates whatever your thing is. Can be culture, can be community, can be utility, right?

1:22:52Can be usage, can be people using it. Whatever your fucking thing is, I don't fucking care, right? And that helps the meme, right? So good systems create a virtuous cycle, you know? And that utility can be anything, but it can be culture, it can be art, it can be songs, can be community. I don't care. Right? When you take a very, very liberal view of utility, anything can be utility. Whatever makes someone happy is utility. And if you ever, if someone ever feels like, oh no, if you make someone happy it's not utility, it's not worth nothing. Have you gone to a strip club or anything? People pay a lot of money to be happy.

1:23:26Bro, I'm telling you, right? If you ever, ever, ever, ever question that, you know, feeling happy or feeling proud or feeling like, even like feeling alpha is not utility, bro. I mean, check. care of people spend, man. Seriously, you know, right? In our modern society, the amount of people, the amount of money that, even like amount of money that people spend for bad necessities is like 10%, you know? Kevin, how much do you spend a month on things you actually need? Like if you cut your rent, if you cut your food to things you actually need, I bet you spend like 5 % of what you spend. No. You really need, right?

1:23:58So everything we spend beyond what we actually need, right? You know, it's like, that's the real thing. We don't need those things. You know, that's it. That's how society works. So fundamentally, two things, okay? The meme and the utility. And utility can make anything. That makes people happy. You know, that's it. You know, yeah. And it's a virtuous cycle, you know, that makes crypto, that makes any money system grow. You know, yeah. Or even religion, community, everything grows and stuff. Very important, yeah. You're now running your own meme coin experiment. Why? Why? Well, no, I mean, I run many meme coins experiments, right?

1:24:37I think I accidentally started a meme coin experiment when I launched a test token and people were like, hey, let's make it a token. Then MockJu was created, which led to the whole zero culture. I was like, hey, you know what? And I was like, okay, I'll make it a token. if you guys I'll make it a token I'll burn the I'll burn the supply and make it a token if you want to right you know but if you want to buy your hallway you should shut the fuck out hold to zero right and I created a white paper that is basically zero you know check out module it's the best white paper it's zero you know and then the whole thing was bombed so we have this meme called zero now right you know and then I wanted to test our launchpad so I was like I created I asked people hey you know what like hey you know what like did you guys like what do you guys think if you create if we tested the Mincoin launchpad, you know, with a Mincoin.

1:25:33I was like, then people said, yeah, why not? Then I said, okay, let's go. So I, then they went, then I found, and then there was a team that was, there was a team that really wanted to, to build it with me, to build, maintain it. So let's go, you know, and it's, it's still one of the best cat coins around, you know? And then, yeah, I think, so, so I, I think, I think for me, it's not about launching Mincoins. I think I don't really launch Mincoins myself, you know, I think I helped them be launched. Yeah, I think, because I don't know, I think it's fun. I think, I feel like it's very, very hard for me to really understand how things work, you know, if I'm not part of the process.

1:26:10In it, yeah. Yeah, so I think, yeah, so I think that, that's what I really enjoy. Because ultimately, ultimately I'm a builder, right? Imcoins are the narrative of the cycle. Everyone throws the word narrative around in crypto, right? Narrative this, narrative that, gaming, AI is the next narrative. a narrative is key but it's not enough project founders also need a strategy what's the difference between a narrative and a strategy it depends on the terminology right I think the I think for me I think I I think narrative and strategy are very related very very related the the reason is because strategy is strategy right is fundamentally about getting people to do what you want them to do.

1:27:00Right? Critical. Right? Strategy is strategy is about successfully getting a set of people and a set of systems. Right? You know, lining up you know, for you to you want your allies to follow you your team to follow you to doing something. Right? You know, and for your enemies to not do something. That's how it works. Right? So basically that's that strategy. And and narratives about narratives are how you communicate. Right? So in this case, I think it's not so much that, it's not like narrative is not enough and it's not about strategy. It's more like it's critical to understand that strategy and narrative are two sides of the same coin.

1:27:38You know, if you have a very, very, even if you're able to predict every single thing, you get all the circumstances right, you get all the capabilities correct, everything and stuff, but you're not able to communicate in a way that people will follow and understand and follow, right? You know, it wouldn't work. And similarly, if you're very focused on communicating in, right? But you're not being cognizant of like, okay, what do people need? What the realities of the ground is, right? What your capabilities are, right? Then it's very difficult as well. Then you're bound to fail, right? So in many ways, I think you need both, right?

1:28:12Strategy is about understanding the game, the realities of the ground, and also what your capabilities are and all that stuff. And developing a plan accordingly. and narrative is about figuring out how do you communicate in a way right you know that makes people follow you or back off or anything right so that game so I think it's an yin and yang thing you know so strategy and narrative is yin and yang you can never never never have strategy with a narrative strategy with a narrative is is delusion right sorry narrative strategy is delusion right and strategy with a narrative is like who is that Greek legend that pushed the rock up the hill?

1:28:59Sisyphus? Sisyphus? The guy, you know? Sisyphus, I'm not sure. Yeah, but yeah, it's actually rich, yeah. So narrative is needed, strategy is needed. There's something else that's really needed even in crypto, even though people tend to forget it. Patience. You told me I want to make Jupiter a household name in the next three years, but I'm patient. Three years. Three years. Interesting. Okay. I said three years? you said three years only five but I'm patient explain why patience is so important oh because patience and resilience are the same thing right but I feel like because I feel like like

1:29:42because things always things always take longer than you think and then they happen all at once yeah if they work well things happen all at once. I feel like the thing that people understand is that like the reason why patience and resilience is very important, right? Because things often, especially in our space, right? They just work very, very slowly, right? Everything just seems to be very, very slow, right? And many, many times you feel like giving up or you feel like it's not going to work out or feel like it's too long, right? And then you leave, right? But then when you leave halfway in the cycle, right?

1:30:18Whether it's your startup cycle or development cycle or market cycle, you are it's really hard because you really lose all the work you did in the beginning you know right and you just like lose it I think so I think that's what's said about it I think I talked about that with Tien from Pendle who was also at Kyber right a couple of years ago and he said that his key learning from Kyber decentralized finance and decentralized exchanges early on was he left late 2018 pretty much at the bottom of the very market but then the DeFi summer happened in 2020. So then you realize it's all about that, right?

1:30:56You should be patient and stay in there. And if you stick to what you're doing, then everything happened at once. And it's the same as what happened with Pendle, right? It started a couple of years ago and now basically it's taking off. That's his key learning. There were so many competitors to Pendle and stuff that were more funded, that were more famous and they just didn't stay. You know, they just did a lot of stuff. They didn't have conviction in the thesis of you being a big market, of you markets being a big market. And then it's funny because a few years later, we saw a massive amount of liquid staking and everything.

1:31:35It's just massive happening across many chains. Because they were there and then they were patient, they got it. It was great. I love the story. It's a great story. Talking about Kyber, we need to talk about decentralized finance, one of the big inventions in the last few years is decentralized finance what's the power of decentralized finance? Freedom freedom fucking freedom no really seriously remember how we talked about so for me everything comes back to one thing right billions of chains billions of tokens okay freedom of money freedom of transaction okay like freedom of money creation freedom of transaction okay Okay, like freedom of ideas, freedom of capital.

1:32:22All these things is unified by one thing, right? Decentralized finance, okay? Nothing in this, nothing ever works, okay? If you don't have enough, like nothing ever works and stuff. If you have to do a DeFi, nothing. Now, you, 99, like even, you might not consider Bitcoin as DeFi, but it is DeFi, okay? I mean, how is it not DeFi? Do you think a centralized government say let's create Bitcoin? No, it wasn't, right? Bitcoin is DeFi. Ethereum is DeFi. Litecoin is DeFi. Okay, it's all DeFi. Okay, it's the freedom of creating. It's all about, like people talk about DeFi as if it started by, you know, like something.

1:33:04No, no, it's not. It will start like the very, very, very genesis of DeFi. Whenever someone creates a financial system and stuff that is not centralized, it's DeFi. First off, right? And Bitcoin does happen and there are many, many things happened before Bitcoin, right? Let's consider DeFi. Okay. But Bitcoin just happened to be the first like DeFi, like big successful one. And then Ethereum came up and now we are seeing, and now with Solana, it finally become like cheap, cheap, that really, really cheap, you know, for anyone to do it, right? And it's about freedom. DeFi is critical because of freedom.

1:33:37Yeah. You talked about one word, one keyword in there, global, unified. And there's one key topic that you like to talk about, which is global unified markets. And it's basically that, right? Yes. But not only in crypto. It's talking about other assets that are out there and putting everything together so that people can transact, right? So one thing that I'm actually deeply passionate about, and I really want Jupiter to really push on this really hard, is the idea of a global unified market. Because the single biggest difference between, is the idea of, we call it GUM, right? G-U-M. global unified market, right?

1:34:19Where every single possible asset class in the world is unified in one single UX or API that's easily accessible from anything to anything. So you can easily go from, you can easily go from MIM point to WINE, easily go from, you know, something to a bond, right? You know, someone in Africa can easily get a stock, you know, American index, right? You know, any other things. I think that's actually the, because what's happening in the world today is that you have many, many markets, right? They're all fragmented and separated in their own way, right? And NASDAQ is their own thing. CM is their own thing.

1:34:56Everything's their own thing, right? And because centralized systems are fundamentally ununifiable, you know? So, and because they're fundamentally ununifiable, you need a lot of really weird systems like SWIFT, like, because they're all centralized, right? Because you need a lot of weird systems like SWIFT and like LIBOR and blah, blah, blah and interchain systems. all these like really complicated and really expensive and really like messy and stuff middleman right to actually do all these transactions right I mean take remittance for example right it's like remittance there's no reason why remittance should be so expensive but as you all know right sending money from A to B is actually really expensive because so whether it's fees the spread the exchange rate most people who went to send money they don't even know what the real exchange rate is right you know between the thing just okay cool so is it 3 % 5 % 10 %?

1:35:45Just close your eyes and pray and see what I get. Precisely, right? So I feel like that's actually one thing that I think should be demolished, right? I think what I think is really important, what I think is a really powerful thing about DeFi, right? You know, is that we can actually have the ability, right, to create new assets, to bring on assets, and also to kind of like and really bridge it with the day-to-day life of the user. You know? Yeah, whether it's fiat systems or payment systems, whatever. You know? Yeah. So basically, you can imagine the world whereby the entire, whereby users, they still have their regular interfaces to everyday life.

1:36:24Whether it's like, whether it's a credit card or whether it's a payment or whether it's getting goods and everything, right? But the backend that drives all the transaction is decentralized, you know? Yeah. And that's the world, to unify. And again, this is something that actually would be completely like, like, think about it. You should be able to go to an airport. right? And scan something and get currency out, right? And you shouldn't even need to know like what, and you shouldn't need to know kind of like what, how that whole thing worked. Just that like, and put a, like you can sell anything you want or even better, right?

1:37:00Loan your soul and get something out. You shouldn't even know how the whole thing works. You just trust that, okay, cool. All right. This is routed. This is routed and executed in a way that is extremely fair. And you don't have that trust now. You know? So that's actually what transparency and openness can bring you. How far away from this world? Five years. Five? Five, I think five. Yeah, roughly five. Mainly because I think there's actually a lot of like technical and logistics barrier and stuff. I mean, don't get me wrong. I think a prototype and stuff pretty soon. You know, but actually ready like five years.

1:37:35Yeah, I think. Like wide spread. Five years. Yeah, I think so. You said don't be mid be anything else be virtuous be devilish better yet be both never be neither neither is the way of the mid don't be mid your mom we love moms here especially the Asian ones your mom will be sad if you're mid I think so I think so I think so I think I don't know I just think that most people always try to find the middle ground, the conventional way. You know, like I think so many people, they do strategy. So many people, I see, I walk through so many different things. Like so many people try to live their life in a way that is acceptable to most people.

1:38:25Right? And even in, the funny thing is, even in crypto, right? Most people really try really hard, you know, to be acceptable, you know, to everyone else. Right? And I think as a result, I think you see everyone like doing very standard and straight, like, red standard. I'll ask my team this. Okay, like, okay, if someone, if you publish this, what is the chance that someone thinks that this comes from Chattability? You know, right? If there's a more than efficient chance that someone thinks so, you suck. You know, full stop. Right? And I think it's actually really, really important to understand because in the world of AI, right?

1:39:02In the world of AI, the cost and effort needed to produce mediocre work, right? It's like fucking nothing, right? That means that if you are someone that produces meat work, right? You are worse than the AI, you know? Seriously, you know? So, you really, as a human being, right? And as someone that, you know, your mom will be proud of and stuff, right? You really want to be more than AI, you know? Like, did your mom give birth to you for you to be, like, you know, taken over by AI? She didn't, you know what I'm saying? I think so. Yeah, so I think that's really important to just be like, hey, you know what?

1:39:37How do I be, how do I be extreme? How do I, how do I find the most unique, how do I find the most unique, the best or the worst side of myself, you know, and really express it, you know? So I think it's important, you know? Otherwise, I think it's me, you know? You said, I'm a mental Ironman. What do you mean by that? I mean, I said it's a joke, you know, but I mostly said that I'm like anti-fart. I'm like, I'm really kind of like used to fart at this point. You know, like people, like I think, like I kind of have a very clear sense of like what my intention is. And then, I think we see that in the context of us thinking about like, if we bring on a controversial person, right, you know, that the world might not like, you know, to come and talk to, come and have a conversation with him, right?

1:40:34then a lot of people in the space might criticize why are you enabling this guy why are you talking to him I think as long as my but then as long as my intention is very clean I'm like okay cool alright I want to make I think it's very valuable for everyone to get their point of view you know it's not about endorsing anyone it's about just getting their point of view and similarly if I do something that might look with someone but as long as a very clear intention I'm very happy to be defending it you know I feel like that's actually where I'm right now I think where I'm right now is that I am I'm at the point of I'm really quite able to stand with my point of view and push it through even if a large chunks of the world don't understand or agree you know and that actually requires a good amount of fortitude.

1:41:34You know, it's like when the whole world is like pressuring you on something, right, to be able to say, okay, you know what? It's fine. You know, I'm just going to, I'm going to express myself very clearly. I'm going to take care of, I'm going to take care of the feelings, right, you know, but I'm going to do it. I feel like I'm going to push it, right, you know, I think that quality is actually very important because if you don't have that quality of being able to withstand large amounts of fat or uncertainty or fears, right? Then I think you will always end up doing the most comfortable thing.

1:42:05You know? Yeah. I think, I mean, I think that's very important. Yeah. I think if you think about it, right? It's like, you know, if you go for extra Ironman, that is not comfortable at all. That's like probably the most uncomfortable thing you can do, right? To going physically, you know, going for extra Ironman, you know? But I think it will also be the most rewarding thing you can do as well, right? So I think similarly, in some sense, I think, you know, I think if you embark, if you live a life and you run your project in a way that you have the same mentality, you know, where you are willing to push yourself to do uncomfortable things, you know, that I think that's actually where I think you might find the most enjoyment and fulfillment.

1:42:44Yeah. Why are you doing all of this? Everything? Fun. Fun. So, manifestation. I think that's a big one. Manifestation. There's a certain, there's a certain version of the world I want to see. You know? And I want to power that world. You know? I want to power that world. Okay. It's a great way to summarize everything. So I think that there's a version of the world I see. Right? I see a world where there is absolute freedom. That everyone, there's no more, there's no more, and no one questions gravity anymore. No one questions bacteria anymore. Right? At this point, we all are pretty clear about bacteria and physics and stuff.

1:43:29So we are able to create new things as a world, right? And, but the world had to understand physics and bio and how things work before we can move forward, right? Same thing as well, right? I think the world needs to actually understand money, right? In a very deep way, right? And not in a way that was taught to us like way back, you know? So I thought, I want to see that world. Just like how the world understands like physics and bio and everything, right? I want the world to understand money, firstly, right? Secondly, I want, that's from a literacy point of view, right? Secondly is that I want the world to also feel free to create billions of monies.

1:44:06You know? And have a system that's able to unify all these things regardless of how much money is in there into one system. Right? And thirdly is that I want to make all these things useful. You know? To actually deeply embed all these new money and new systems into one thing, into one cohesive whole. Right? Into a parallel universe. you know they will all live in right and I think I really see that what's happening you know I think so I think my main motivation is that I think I really want to make that world happen you know across all three fronts across across the literacy and making sure that people understand the new world we live in and the fundamental laws right you know like the meme everything create systems you know and build the bridges do that every day assistance.

1:44:59Yeah. So I think that's the world I really think needs to happen. You know, I think I want to manifest that and I think and I want to have fun doing it and I want to do it with people I like. You know, both in terms of my team, the community, friends, you know, anyone, you know, who wants to be part of this thing. Yeah, that's it. That's the right thing. Yeah. If you met your 18 years old self today, what would you tell him? What makes you think I'm not 18? What makes you think I'm not 18? Because we have one here with close to 18 already. I would say this thing. I mean, I would tell him this.

1:45:39I would like, dude, you've gone through a lot of shit, bro. You know, but it's going to work out. Don't worry. Yeah, it's going to work out. Yeah, it's going to work out. I think, yeah, I think, I think, I think, I think being a, I think being a really big, like, social misfit

1:45:59and everything and basically not having any friends for like the first 18 years of my life was extremely foundational, right? To me being able to say, fuck you, do a lot of things, you know? It's like, okay, it's like, okay. I mean, I survived like, you know, 20 years of not having friends. So it's like, I can do it, yeah. Why do you say you were a social misfit? Oh, long story, man. Check out my blog, you know? it's all there you know but long story short is that I think long story short is that I think yeah I just never got along you know I just never I was always in a very painful cycle of like trying to find myself and fitting in and never quite doing either you know until I realized that there really is no such thing you can never fit in and you can never be yourself you know it's always this like an individual and a society it's like oil and water you know right I'm serious like society an individual and society is a drop of oil you know in a vast ocean of water you are that is stood violently you know you're always you're always you're bound to be commingered you know but I'm never going to be one you know right so I think that's how it works it took me a while to be comfortable with that you know do you think it's the case for everyone or do you think it's the case for like the mega entrepreneur who is challenging everything all the time and therefore doesn't fit.

1:47:31No, everyone, everyone, everyone. No one, no one genuinely fits. No one. We're all individuals. We're all individuals. Like even, even the most like normally person that you meet on train, right, he's an individual and every individual is unique and is, and, and, and, and especially in their own way. 100%, you know? Yeah, 100%, yeah. No, no one, yeah, no matter how much someone fits in, to society per se, he's still himself. Yeah. It's always true, you know? Yeah. And I think, I think we, I think we just have to be, in fact, one of the things, it goes out to, one of the things we were talking about earlier, right?

1:48:09The idea that I think, you know, there's two classes of people and stuff like, you know, like someone who is a mega entrepreneur or whatever, and then everybody else or people who are meant to be rebels and everyone else. I don't think that it's like the case. You know, I actually think that that's actually just, I just think that everyone should just like be very very comfortable and try to find out who they are right without trying to fit into without like without feeling pressure either way right they shouldn't feel a lot pressure to fit in or feel a lot pressure not to fit in I feel like nowadays if you look at nowadays I feel like it's turning man I feel like in the past there used to be oh you should fit in but now it's like oh you shouldn't fit in you should be a rebel everything I don't know man And it doesn't work that way.

1:48:54Always one extreme or the other. Yeah, I feel like, in fact, one of the things that I feel, I feel a lot of happiness in is when I fit it in. You know what I'm saying? Right? When I, okay, cool, I find my own way of fitting in. I feel happy. I feel happy. Yeah, I'm not kidding. You know? Yeah. So I think, but I think if you, so I feel like happiness is the guy. Yeah. You said it took you 20 years to kind of find yourself. What was the turning point? What changed? Oh, fuck. Deep question.

1:49:29Honestly, starting my current team. Having my current team and not having the community, having the current team, having the community we have at Jupyter, I think those things really, really help me. Because I think, because my style, again, it's not everybody's style, right? Everyone has their own style, right? but I think for me I guess I had to create my own community right you know my own my own set of ideas my own set of ethos my own set of like operating model my own set of like ecosystem and everything right for me to be comfortable in yeah so I think that's the reason why I started feeling more comfortable because I think I could kind of like create my own space you know I don't have to yeah so I think that's what's important for me because I created my own space and communities and ideas and stuff that yeah that's why I think that's what changed for me yeah what's your biggest prediction for the next 12 months I got no predictions bro I got no predictions I got no I think I think the my biggest prediction is that we know nothing yeah and we we know nothing I think every single prediction that I've seen this year have failed dramatically you know yeah so I'm not into predictions but I think what I'm really into right now is I'm really into understanding like all the the first principles you know about both in terms of product what kind of products people need how to understand money how to understand memes you know how to understand community and experimenting my way into it yeah that's all I do yeah so I don't have predictions but I have ethos my ethos my ethos for next 12 months is that I'm going to you know experiment my way out of life yeah I'm going to aggressively and hopefully courageously, you know, experiment into finding answers I want.

1:51:29Yeah. For example? So many, so many examples. I think Jupiter is going to hold three, I announced, I announced three extremely consequential voting, votes for proposals for Jupiter, you know, and the community can decide what to do with it. That's a really big deal. I know I'm helping to launch a coin. you know, and hoping and seeing if I can start a new meta, a new PPP meta for that, you know, I've taken some extremely strong steps towards like

1:52:06a community-first idea for the Juke token, right? You know, where I think, you know, and I'm not sure if it will pay off in terms of the market responding, you know, but I don't really care. You know, I think it's something for me to do, you know? and yeah I think there'll be a lot more experiments in the product in terms of like ideas in terms of in terms of writing everything yeah so I want the experiment what about personal ones personal experiments personal life experiments

1:52:42Joker Joker off topic I'm testing the limits I think I found them sorry I'm testing I'm testing the edge of the comfort zone yeah yeah yeah I decided I stepped outside we're gonna get back in I decided I decided I would step back in amazing meow that was amazing thank you so much for doing that amazing conversation it's so funny it's so funny it's so funny so funny good job what was that?

1:53:16Bye.