E84: 9GAG Founder: How To Turn Crypto Losses Into Lifechanging Wins

26:22And not to mention, you or we don't even know when the clock stops. I mean, why human beings are so entitled to feel like, hey, Kevin, let's make an appointment like two weeks later when you come to Hong Kong and then we can do this podcast. Why are we so entitled to feel like, okay, this will happen? Because no one really knows whether we die right after this podcast and then I go out on the street and then I got hit by a car. We don't even know. And most of the time, there are always stories like, Okay, some guys actually died in sleep, right? And it's like a relatively peaceful death, right?

27:00So I think about that a lot, right? Yeah, and I'm not thinking about it in a pessimistic way, but more like in a positive way that, okay, we actually have to treasure our time, right? And treasure the time with our family, with our loved ones, yeah. Do you believe in destiny? I'm a Christian, right? I believe in the Christian definition of destiny, right? I mean, if we do our job, right, if we do our best, right, we have a chance, right, to go to heaven, right? And I think it's not because of what we do, right, but because we are willing to believe, right? And I think that's something that I believe in.

27:37Yeah, I'm a pretty new Christian, right? I've been Christian for like, I don't know, like five years, right? Since my first son, I passed away, right? And then, but ever since then, I would say that I'm a believer, yeah. You lost a son five years ago? Yeah, that's our first son, yeah. You talk about it very openly? Yes, yeah, I mean - Why? Oh, there are a few reasons, right? Number one, we all die, right? Every guy on earth, they have some relatives that die. Otherwise, it's just impossible, right? And even for all the people right now, we all die again, right? And if we have our kids, they all die, right?

28:22Whether we die before them or they die before us. That's why I feel like death is not the most scary thing. And I think people don't talk about it enough. That's why we kind of like, I mean, on one hand, we get scared by it. On the other hand, it also gives us a wrong view towards it. Actually, having an end is a good thing. If we can kind of like do our best before it ends. I think that's how I think. That's number one. Number two is because I'm a Christian, I mean, the death on earth right now is not the end to me. And I think that's also one of the reasons I want to talk about it because it's really hard to, oh, do you believe in Jesus?

29:06I mean, it's really, really hard. But when you face death or the death of your loved ones, it's quite natural so that you can talk about your faith. And that's basically what I think the responsibility of a Christian. And then the other thing is, when we always talk about our first son, his name is called Ian, I-A-N, Ian. He actually never dies. He actually live in our memories. And I think that's why I don't mind talking about it. And I know that most people online, especially on social media, they always show their best side. That's why on Instagram, you always, oh shit, that guy's traveling again.

29:49and then took all these great photos. But deep down, you know the shit, how much tries that they have to do to take that good shot and then how much added they have to do. People always put on the glamorous surface, the face. But deep down, I know that we must share some pain and it's easier to connect with people when you share the similar type of pain. Whenever I share my story, actually a lot of friends that I met, On one hand, they always say sorry for me, right? But that's not what I really want to hear, right? But they also share their story of losing a sibling, their story of losing their parents, right?

30:30Of course, it's not the same, right? But you feel like you get connected instantly, right? Because when we are willing to open our heart, that's how we can make, I would say, true friends, yeah. Absolutely. being vulnerable is the best way, like a weapon basically for socialization, like socializing and everyone deep down wants that but most people for some reason they're not able to do it. They just keep like a great face as you say, right? Yeah, yeah and this was a recent interview that I saw, I watched by by NVIDIA CEO, and then, what's his English name? Jensen, right? And then he mentioned that greatness, it doesn't come from abilities.

31:17He mentioned that greatness come from character, and character comes from suffering, right? And I feel like, oh shit, this is deep, right? And why I don't really see all these challenges at work really that big, it's probably because, I mean, you lost your son, right? I mean, losing some money, right? Having some failure at work, it doesn't mean shit to me, right? I'm not saying that I don't care. I'm just saying that I don't care too much, right? Because I understand that, okay, this is not really that important, right? Because we can still try again, right? No matter whether you lose some money, right?

31:55You launch a failed product, you can still try again. Meanwhile, when we are talking about our life, you cannot try again, right? So when we kind of like have that, when I have that perspective, To me, all things, most of the challenges, right? At life, I can kind of try to zoom out and then have a more, I would say, relaxing approach towards all these challenges. Of course, we still do our best, but we know that, okay, not everything is controlled by us. We had a project a long time ago called Startup Quotes, Startup and then Quotes, Q-U-T-E. because I read a lot of rap, a lot of like TechCrunch, Marchable, when we first started our company.

32:41And I was like, oh, all these like smart founders, they have all these like great quotation, right? How come we still quoting like Winston Cheshire today? How come we can't quote some guys really smart like and still alive, right? And then we create a website to post all these like quotations, quotes of these founders and stuff. But one of the quotes from the Uber founder, Travis, he said, there's no problem. I mean, I don't remember exactly, right? But what he, the paraphrasing it is, there's no problem that can't be solved, right? You just haven't found a solution. And then I was like, shit, this is like great.

33:19But after seeing the passing of my son and then seeing all these like sick kids at the hospital, I was like, no, that actually death is still not yet solved. And also like a lot of diseases, there is no solution. It's not like how much you work hard. I mean, look at Steve Jobs. He's one of the smartest founders ever lived. He still died at a pretty young age, considering the life expectancy of people right now. And then look at all these famous people like Rockefeller and stuff, they all passed away. So I would say that, hey, maybe death is the ultimate destination where to remind us that, okay, there's an end.

34:03I mean, Stoic also said that a momentum ori. I think it's kind of remember that we all die, right? That's actually very important for us to remember that. So that it humbles us. It also makes us appreciate what we have today. What's your message to everyone who is having a very rough time today, whether in their personal life or in their business? I mean, it all shall pass, right? That's my message, right? No one ever on your deathbed care about your crypto portfolio, right? No one, no one, right? I mean, maybe they care about the zip phrase, right? So that you can share it with your friends and family, right?

34:40Because probably your wife or your girlfriends or your family don't understand how to operate a crypto wallet, right? That's why you shit. Oh, remember this number. and then, but they don't understand what that number means. And then they just throw the paper away, right? So I would say that, I mean, it's important, but it's not that important, right? And when we try to zoom out, we understand that this all shall pass. And for example, in Hong Kong, there were like two public exams. Right now, there's one. It's very, very important for students to get a good result because they use that to decide whether you go to a good school, right?

35:18I mean, a lot of students were stressed out, right? During that exam. But after you pass the exam or whatever, maybe you didn't pass, right? But then you go to work as a society, right? After 10 years, right? After a few years, no one really ever passed your exam result, right? Then when you look back, oh shit, it doesn't really matter that much. Oh, maybe I could do better. But it's not the end of the world. I think remember that this is not the end of the world. It's very, very important, right? Because every time we feel like we get cornered, it's because we feel like, okay, there's no way to exit.

35:52But there's always a way to exit, right? Just go to sleep. Another day is a new beginning. I think, assuming that we don't die, then I think that's a positive message I want to share. Because no matter how hard we face at our work, it's not life or death, right? When you really see life or death situation, you will appreciate every ordinary days that we have. There was a saying that I really liked was, it's about poop, right? So it sounds a little bit disgusting. It's on a normal day, you don't appreciate it that much. But if you have a diarrhea, then you think that a normal day is great. So I think the death of my son is actually the really, really painful diarrhea that I had.

36:38So that when you face that shit, then all these challenges are challenges in in life it doesn't matter too much yeah

36:48so when you have a diarrhea you feel really bad right yes and then you feel better and you say oh it's amazing or for example you block your back and then every time you sneeze or you walk or you you move it's really painful right maybe for a few days afterwards you'll feel like once to get better. Oh man, life is amazing. But we all have this tendency to kind of forget. Yeah, 100%. How do we not forget? I mean, most of the pain, we actually don't forget. I mean, for example, losing a loved one, you don't forget. And if you forget, that means that it's not really that painful. So I mean, it sounds like tautology, right?

37:26But it's actually the truth, right? I mean, for example, I can talk about my son openly without crying, right? Of I actually cry every time I talk about him. It doesn't mean that I don't believe in Christ. I don't believe in like a afterlife, right? But it just means that you still feel the pain, right? Yeah, but time can heal a little bit, right? But you still see the scar, right? And you still feel, and if you touch it, the scar, you actually can feel it very vividly, right? And at the same time, I also feel that, hey, if, I mean, human beings are stupid, right? So they try to, they will redo the same mistake again and again.

38:07But I think if that is really, really painful, you actually won't do it ever again. When you talk to a patient who got burned, probably they will not ever play with fire. But for people who got drained on crypto and they got drained again, it's because that drain on one hand is painful, but on the other hand, it's not really that painful. And maybe most of the time it's because they're greedy and stuff. Maybe over greedy. I mean, yeah, that's how I see it. Yeah, but I would say that the most important thing is, I can't help you to solve your pain, right? But I can tell you that we can walk together, right?

38:44I think that's the most important thing of being a believer is we can't help each other, right? To bring the dead-like loved one back to life, right? I'm not Jesus, right? But I had that pain. I can share that with you. You can share your pain with me. and if I can kind of live a good, still live a happy life after that trauma, then you can too. I think that is a very strong message that I got from my brothers and sisters with Christ. And I think that's also quite important because that makes me understand how small we are. right yeah and and honestly all these are okay defi protocol all these are crypto blah blah blah bitcoin white paper i mean very very smart in a way but does it save life right i mean maybe it changes people financial situation but does it save life right when you're at the hospital no matter how how many bitcoins you have if you are sick with a rare disease right you don't want i I mean, you want a rare NFT, right?

39:53You don't want a rare disease, right? And then you will feel like, shit, actually doctors and nurses, they're doing an amazing job, right? Scientific breakthrough is actually saving a lot of life, right? I mean, that's why a lot of people who got rich in crypto, right? They focus a lot on longevity. Longevity is the big thing, yeah. But I mean, is it really that good to live that long? I don't know, right? I think living healthily, I think that's important, right? Yeah, but living that long, I don't know whether that's really that good. yeah yeah but anyway there's another whole thing yeah you wrote when we started nine gag in 2008 we were nobody and we knew nothing we joined 500 startups in 2011 raised seed funding joined y combinator in 2012 and never stopped shipping a decade later we're still nobody but nine gag has a global audience of 200 million people across different platforms.

40:52How did you build a meme and attention monster over the last 16 years? I would say that just don't stop, right? Because I think for content or media, one thing that's important is like constant shipping, right? Because, or at least find the cadence, right? And then you keep to it. I mean, when we were building iGET, right? I mean, of course, we are still building iGET, right? It's like, okay, make sure the website is up, right? Make sure that there are new content, right? That people share every single day. Make sure that people find satisfaction, right? On the platform, right? I mean, by doing this simple thing every single day, it actually accumulates, right?

41:38And I think that's the important part that a lot of people, they don't really understand, right? Because the media always talk about overnight success. Oh, that guy. Oh, trade like a whiff. And then got like 30 ,000 % like a profit. I mean, oh, that guy. He started Airbnb. He's an overnight success. They started Uber. Overnight success. The classic 10-year overnight success. Yeah, exactly. It takes like 10 years or maybe like five years. I think people don't look at the blood and tears. They only look at the joy. but I would say that being a founder for over a decade, not really successful one but at least we make a living.

42:23Then this is the part that we understand is hustle is a necessary condition. Of course, you still need a lot of other, other, other, I would say factors to be quote unquote successful but you need to put in the work. Most of the time, you don't even have the chance to compete with ideas, to compete with intelligence because you don't even put in the hard work. And I think for startups, for building companies, I think hard work is almost a prerequisite in order to make it work. You mentioned going to Y Combinator in 2012 with Brian Armstrong from Coinbase, right? But you said, oh man, if only I kind of like at least put some savings in Bitcoin.

43:11What's your crypto aha moment? My crypto aha moment was, I think around like three years ago, right? And then I actually got into crypto very, very late. I mean, people keep talking to us about launching a token, right? Ever since like 2018, around that time, I mean, Dogecoin was already very, very big, right? I actually talked to one of the co-founders of Doge, right? at the time when we are trying to understand more about like crypto, right? Because it's quite easy for us to talk to people because people know NIGET most of the time. And then maybe when they spend enough time on the internet, right?

43:50Most of the time they stumble upon NIGET as well. So it helped us to talk to quote unquote important people, right? So that we can learn faster than other random guys. And then, but I think at the time he was like very, very pessimistic about crypto. And that's also one of the reasons and why Dogecoin, right? Actually, the original founders, they are not working on Dogecoin anymore, right? But I think this is also part of the things that makes it great, right? But then, but we thought, oh, I tried to use MetMask. It's fucking difficult to use it, right? And then there was like testnet and stuff.

44:28I don't understand anything about that at all, right? And then, I think time flies. I mean, yeah. And then I think like three years ago, there was like a social movement in Hong Kong. And then there is also like the China-US trade war when President Trump was still the president. And then I thought, okay, it is quite risky for us to only keep our asset in a Hong Kong bank account. Maybe we should try to diversify a little bit. Maybe we start a bank account in Singapore, in UK. and for the company, also for my personal use. And then I tried to apply for a bank account in UK and it took me six months.

45:15And they still haven't approved it. And then I talked to my friend and said, hey, Ray, why don't you create a crypto wallet where you try to put some of your personal assets on chain? And then I tried it. I remember at the time, Ethereum was like$200. That was like three years ago. Yeah, three to four years ago. Probably 2020, yeah. Yeah, 2020, around that time. $200, right? And I was like, oh, this is so expensive, right? I witnessed the growth where Ethereum, from 200 bucks to 400 bucks in a few weeks or something, around that time, yeah. And then I sold, right? I was like, oh, shit, this is a good profit, right?

45:58Yeah, and I mean, if only I knew, right? But anyway, yeah, the aha moment is not the profit. Because I mean, I understand the basic finance and stuff. Because I mentioned that I work at a TV station. But that TV station is actually, it's called NowBNC in the past. It's basically a CNBC, kind of like a TV station. It's like a financial news station. So I kind of know the basics about stock market and stuff like that. And then, I mean, it makes money, right? But it doesn't make me feel like, okay, this is the thing. but only when I started to kind of like send fund to my friends, stable coin and also crypto, right?

46:38I mean, it only takes like seconds, maybe like a minute to receive it. Meanwhile, when we are doing like wire transfer at a traditional bank account, it takes like days, right? And fucking banks, they also rest on like weekends. So if you send fund on Friday, you cannot receive it until like Monday. And that was like, why, right? I mean, internet doesn't stop. Why the bank cash transfer has to stop? It just doesn't make sense to me. Meanwhile, for crypto, it's so fast. Of course, whether people believe in the decentralization, stability, blah, blah, blah, and then the gas fee and stuff like that.

47:12I mean, where's the gas test go and stuff like that. But the thing is, that was the aha moment for me. Shit, this tech is actually amazing. And I didn't believe in NFT at that time because I was like, okay, crypto is cool. but I don't understand why this picture is worth millions of dollars. So again, I'm a boomer in all this kind of stuff. I'm a late coming guys on all this stuff. But one thing that I kind of know is I would not say that they don't work until I spend some time with it. Because that's the mentality that we should have, or at least startup founders should have this. Hey, don't say that thing doesn't work, right?

47:58Because people say the same thing to you when you start your company as well. Maybe we should spend some time on that product, on that idea before we say something. Right now, most of the answer that I would say, oh, when people share with me an idea, I mean, I would say that I don't know enough. If you think it works, then try it. Then build it out. But most of the time, I don't know enough to say that this works or doesn't work. So that was an aha moment. Yeah, and again, right, if I buy more like Eve, right, at that time, right, I still don't have to work right now, right? So, I mean, there are so many like, oh, shit moments, right?

48:37I mean, but most of the time, I feel like, oh, people will think that, okay, oh, I missed this deep, right? Oh, I should have bought like Eve when it's like$1 ,000, right? I think people feel bummed about a lot of things, right? But one question I always ask my friends is, hey, why didn't you feel bummed that you didn't buy Bitcoin when it was launched? Why did you feel bummed when you missed the deep, right? And then, oh, you missed this like meme coin opportunity and stuff like that. If you want to regret, why don't you regret bigger? Because you missed the opportunity anyway. Why don't you regret that you missed Bitcoin, you missed like Ethereum, right?

49:18And even you missed like gold, right? But gold was like way before our time. So we didn't really miss it. But for Bitcoin and stuff, actually, we were alive. We were using internet back then. But how come you don't feel like you miss it? Because I think, again, it's all the perspective. And a basic economics lesson told us that, okay, this is like a sunk cost. It's like Bitcoin is Bitcoin. So, well, I mean, on one hand, if it is something that we can learn and also improve, then of course, it's a good experience. Otherwise, why do we spend so much time indulged with all these like losses, right?

49:52That we had, right? Especially, it doesn't really matter that much. I think for Web3, one good thing is there are so many opportunities every single day. I was about to say that. Yeah. There's so many opportunities that you're going to miss a lot, but you're always going to have another shot, always. Yeah. Therefore, it's not, I missed Ethereum or I missed Bitcoin at this price. It's, hey, like you're going to have so many other opportunities. You just need to stick around. And in the context of crypto, not die, meaning not lose all your money at once right yeah but i feel like people love to complain absolutely they love to make themselves feel miserable i think yeah actually i think there is a chemical aspect to that i read something like when you complain you get some dopamine shot or something it makes you feel better right but again it's not going to change anything about your life to complain yeah that's for sure it's almost this is one thing that my father told me because he's kind of like a, I mean, he didn't know the English word, right?

50:48Because he's like a normal Hong Kong guy. He didn't even finish primary school due to the Chinese cultural movement. And then he come to Hong Kong and stuff. He was a cook at a fast food restaurant, right? So we come from, I mean, my brothers and sisters and me, we all come, we come from a very humble background, right? And then my, but my father is a very unique person in a way that he always tried to be a contrarian in a lot of things, right? Because it feels like the things that most people do is kind of dumb, right? Because when he was like working at a fast food restaurant, a lot of his colleagues, right?

51:25They go to like gambling and then go to like prostitutes, right? During like holidays and stuff like that. But he didn't like it, right? He loved to become the rare, right? The opposite guy, right? And then I believe that kind of like shape how I think about stuff, right? And on one hand, I don't feel like loss is a loss that much. I try to see whether we can turn a misfortune into fortune. That's number one. Number two is when I started to start our company and working on our products and projects, then I start to feel like the norm is failure. Because success is almost like by definition, the minority, following that trend, For things that most people do, probably that don't lead to success, right?

52:17I mean, I'm not saying that I don't have to eat, right? But I'm saying that most decisions, most actions that people do every single day, that probably lead to a very common ordinary lives that doesn't really create an impact to the world, right? Again, I'm not saying that living an ordinary life is bad, right? I'm just saying that if you want to be special, you have to act special. You have to do something that ordinary people do not do. I think being a startup founder, usually you have that contrarian mindset. And somehow, why? I don't like to complain because complain doesn't create much value.

52:56And if you can fix it, fix it. If you can't fix it, why do you fixate it on it? So I think that's one of the things that I don't like Web3 because it gives a platform for so many people to complain, right? And most people, they don't take their responsibility, right? I mean, if you try to mint a rug pull project, right, with all the wet flags and stuff, it's on you, right? And if you buy and sell a token, right, at different price point, it's on you, right? Because assuming that project didn't really say a lie or like do some shady stuff, right? But then it's on you, right? And why do you always blame other people for your own decision, right?

53:41I think that's something that I don't like, right? But again, I think I can't control other people, right? I can only do better for myself, right? I can only kind of like teach my kids, right? To have a correct mentality towards things in life, right? Because when we complain, it's almost like we give away the power to change things, right? and that means that we we make ourselves powerless meanwhile if you don't complain and try to fix it and then or move on you feel powerful because you feel like okay you overcome the challenges yeah absolutely so it's sort of a mindset of I'm responsible for everything that happens to me the good and the bad yes and then even if it's not really true at least you feel that you have the power and the control for things and is much more helpful, definitely.

54:34Yeah, there's an old saying, right? I mean, you can't change the weather, right? But you can change your emotion towards the weather. I think that's very true. Yeah. So you had this crypto aha moment, and at some point you get into the next dimension, which is our business needs to go all into crypto, right? Yeah, I wouldn't say all in, right? Because at the beginning, right, you always try to be safe. Even when we started our first company, I still had my day job, right, for like three to four years, right? So I'm always kind of like a saver guy, right? And that's why we dip our toes into crypto, right?

55:09Or we move some of the company asset, right, to digital asset, right? And then we also, I started to buy more NFT to learn because I'm a big believer in you actually learn by doing, right? You can't learn by, I mean, no offense, but listening to podcasts, you can't learn that much. Absolutely. It's almost like, okay, listening to smart podcasts, smart people talk about stuff, it gives you more confidence, right? But in order to learn, you still have to do your work, you still have to create your own wallet, you still have to buy NFT, buy crypto to learn more. I'm a big believer in that. You have to get wrecked a couple of times.

55:43I mean, I'm a very positive guy. That's why I say that pay to learn, P-A-Y pay. You pay to learn. A lot of people pay to earn, right? P-L-A-Y and E-A-R-N. For me, it's like P-A-Y and then L-E-A-R-N, right? When you spend real money, your personal money, not real money, personal money into it, you actually feel the pain. By feeling the pain, that's how you grow because you won't make another stupid decision again, assuming that you're smart. So I think in like two years ago, I bought like 2 ,000 ETH, 3 ,000 ETH worth of NFTs at the time when ETH was like$4 ,000. So I pay a lot of light lessons fee to learn how NFT and Web3 works.

56:24And that's also one of the reasons why I can learn so fast. When you have paid a very expensive tuition fee, you actually have to learn really, really fast. Otherwise, it's not worth it. That's an expensive lesson. But actually, the most expensive lessons are the best, right? The ones you remember. I wouldn't say the best. I would say the expensive lessons make you remember. It may not be the best. It's like girlfriends. you spend so much money on this girlfriend it doesn't mean that that's the best girlfriend but probably that makes you remember her I mean same thing go to guys I'm not saying that guys only pay for girlfriends and stuff but we live in a very I would say equal world in a way but what I mean is when you have skin in the game it makes you learn much faster because no matter how many blogs how many tweets that you read, you're only a bystander, right?

57:23You are only an audience, right? But when you get your step into the arena, you actually learn to fight. I mean, maybe you die, right? But somehow you learn to fight, you get better every single day, right? That's what I see for most of the guys that I talk to, right? I mean, as you mentioned before, as long as we survive, as long as we don't die, as long as we don't get drained 100 % of our personal wealth, there's still always a chance that we can come back. And that's the positive message in like startups, in crypto as well. You're building MemeLand. Yeah. What is MemeLand if you had to explain it to your mother?

58:00I would say that this is a community, right? We call it the community company, right? If I have to tell my mom, I would say, oh, this is a community company where people can have fun and make money together, right? I mean, of course, not financial advice, right? But that's the goal, right? How can we build something great together? In the past, we are already a very community-heavy company because all the content is from our users. So we kind of understand how community works. But with Web3, you actually have incentives, a lighter incentive where you can mobilize a lot of people to do things together.

58:39I think that's very, very powerful. So I would tell my mom that, okay, we're building a community company where a lot of people can work together to achieve goals together, Be it like financial goals, be it like, I don't know, just meet up with others in real life and stuff like that. And I think that's what we're doing with MemeLand. And talking about that, it's also very interesting, because I believe that there are like two AIs that are very important right now. Number one, of course, is artificial intelligence, where people talk about every single day these days. Even like Apple, they integrate with ChatGPT, doing WWDC, and then they just make the announcement.

59:19And then for us, especially in Web3, I think a lot of interest, a lot of incentive, that's another important AI that people have to understand. Because artificial intelligence, most of the time, we are only the user and only the data provider. Because we are the data that get trained in the system, by OpenAI, by all these big AI companies, small individuals, they actually don't have that much, I would say, opportunity to build something out of AI. Maybe you can build an application, but that's not really, really that big. Meanwhile, for crypto, for what three, even the small guys, if you work hard, if you grind, actually, there's a better chance for you to make a better financial return.

1:00:09And that's the aligned incentive, right? It's how to differentiate. Web 2 and Web 3. For Web 2, okay, you're only a user. For Web 3, you actually can be part of the team, part of the project. And because the team may be the token, maybe the NFT, maybe other incentive, actually you have the same goal to make it good. And I think that's really, really important for a lot of people. What's your ultimate holy grail vision with MemeLand? I mean, that's a good question. I actually haven't thought about that because I don't think there's an end. I would love to become the company, make Meme Land, become the company that brings W3 to the people.

1:00:57Because with NightGap, we kind of bring meme, brought meme to the mainstream media. Because before NightGap, I mean, memes have been around for a long time. But most of the time, they focus they only survive they only get service in all these like forums like Red Dead like 4chan like all these like online forums as a very insider stuff right because they actually don't get shared that much outside of their own forum yeah for NightGap we kind of kind of like bridge it to like Facebook to Twitter to Instagram to all these like social media platforms right because we believe that hey we don't get people to go to your platform right we go we bring our content we don't get people to see your content and come to your platform.

1:01:41We bring our content to the people where they are. I hope that for MemeLand, we can also do that because Web3 until today is still very, very hard for normies to understand what it is and how it works and why it's important. We would love MemeLand to become the company that makes it simple enough for people to believe that, okay, this is actually interesting so that they can try. That's why we call our token MemeCoin. And then we do some very silly things. Actually, on June 9th, we actually launched the first International Meme Day. Because we believe that, hey, if we can have April Fool's Day, why can't we have a Meme Day?

1:02:27Meme has been so important in human's life today. All the kids, they probably know Meme Day than any other special days in a year. Why can't we have an International Meme Day? And then why can't MemeLand, why can't we become the first one to launch it? That's why we had a gathering at McDonald's across like 10 cities in the world. And then doing nothing, just go there and then take a photo and stuff like that. And then try to kickstart the tradition. And by doing stuff like this, that's how we can bring Web3, bring crypto, bring blockchain to the people. I think this is a very important mindset that we are not onboarding people with W3.

1:03:12We should be bringing W3 to the people. Onboarding means, okay, you have to learn so much to get into W3. Onboarding, right? It's like, oh, you onboard a ship, you onboard a plane, right? But I believe that for tech to have mass adoption, you actually have to make it work for the people. it's not like oh you're stupid that's why you don't understand Siphrase you don't understand how to use a ledger or Trezor but why why do I need to remember understand what Siphrase is you know to buy crypto I think stuff like this those are the things that we want MemeLand to be part of to contribute yeah there is another project that is working really hard on bringing Web3 to the people we have two pengus on the table right And I know that you guys partnered with Pudgy Penguins to throw an event at NFT Paris.

1:04:09What do you think of what Luca Nets is building with Pudgy Penguins? Yeah, I mean, Luca is one of the founders that gets it, right? That understands how to build community, right? And also how to build a business, right, with the community. And I think that's very, very important, right? I think, I mean, I'm fortunate, right? I met Luca a few times. I talk to him a few times, right? And then I can call him a friend. I don't know whether he sees me as a friend, but because probably he doesn't want to have an old friend. Yeah, I mean, for me, I feel like, okay, he's really passionate about his community, about Pachy Penguins.

1:04:46So I believe that the approach that they have is building on the unfair advantage that Luca has. I mean, when I say unfair advantage, it means that what are the advantages that you have, but other people don't have? and with his e-commerce background. I think getting Pudgy into the quote-unquote real world, offline world, is actually building with his experience, with his toy gun, I forgot the name, blaster or something, not blaster, but the toy gun where to shoot the gel blaster. And I think that is like, I wouldn't say the same playbook, but I would say that it's at least like he can apply his past experience, right?

1:05:34Into the new project, right? I mean, new as in for Pachi, right? So I believe that's how I think, okay, this actually makes a lot of sense to me, right? I mean, and not every project can do that. Not every founder can do it, right? I mean, our holders, our companies always said, hey, Ray, why don't you make some potatoes toys? Why don't you make some like Meme Land toys, right? I was like, but why? Right. What is our advantage on that? Right. And, and of course we can, we can always try to make some toys and stuff, but why would people care? Right. And this is not even our focus. Right. Why do we have to do that?

1:06:10Right. And, and I think for, for, for Pudgy Penguins, I think, I think Luca has found his own way. Yeah. And, and again, there are many ways to make it work. And for Pudgy, right, going retail, right, making toys, making collectibles, right. That makes a lot of sense for them. Yeah. Do you hold a pudgy NFT? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I have a view. I plan to buy more. I think because this is, again, this is what I believe in. In crypto, the easiest way to, I mean, it's like crypto is amazing. No, not crypto, but NFT is amazing that if you spend some money to buy an NFT, you can instantly get into a community.

1:06:51You can almost instantly talk to the founders. and what's the last time you buy a product on Amazon and Jeff Bezos talk to you or maybe like Microsoft or like Apple what's the last time that you have not even the founder maybe only like a part of the leadership team to talk to you but meanwhile for NFT you actually talk to the CEO or you talk to the founders if you want you can ping him all the time and they actually respond to you I think that's the fast track to learn that's the fast track to build relationship and I think that's why I believe in that. That's why I bought a lot of NFTs. Of course, a lot of them die.

1:07:27But for Pudgy, I think personally, I think I have two or three. Because for NFT, I barely sell. That's why I buy something that I like. So I buy the two ones with bow tie. I like the bow tie ones. I think they look very, very cute. So that's what I have right now. But at the end of the day, I think only by having, I mean, only by being part of the community, you start to learn more about what they're doing. Because most of the time, if you just look at projects like Twitter, you feel like everyone is changing the world. But you go to a Discord to search what was the last time the founder was actually talking in the Discord.

1:08:10That's a very important signal to see whether that project has died already. So I think for Pudgy, I mean, long story short, I have Pudgy and the bullets on Pudgy. So Pudgy is likely to not be the expensive girlfriend. Expensive girlfriend NFT from 2000. I don't know. I mean it's very expensive, right? From 2000. Yeah, but the one that costs you the expensive lesson, girlfriend from 2021. No, it's like a group, right? So for like 2000 E, 3000 E, this is a lot of NFTs, right? Yeah. But I mean, again, bygone is bygone, right? There's like money you spent already, right? But again, for me, these days, I started to, because I wouldn't say I learned a lot about NFT, but I kind of understand the importance of it.

1:08:56That's why right now, I only buy NFT that I really like, or I only buy NFT to support the partners that we are working with, right? Because we want to put our money where our mouth is, right? So if we work with a project, we want to support them and buy the NFT, maybe buy the order notes and stuff like that, right? Because, hey, if we are promoting that project to our communities, right? At least we have to tell them, hey, why I believe in it, why we believe that this is an interesting project for our community as well. So we buy a lot of NFTs for me personally and also for MemeLand as a company.

1:09:30And I also started to buy arts that I like, NFT arts that I like. And I think because, again, if I don't sell, I should buy something that I really, really like. yeah i had the raul pa on the podcast last week and he's doing the same he's buying high-end nft arts i mean high-end sometimes you don't know right because i mean what he thinks is going to be high-end basically yeah yeah exactly right but people always have an opinion towards different stuff right every time people buy nft they always believe that okay this is the holy grail of nft this is the next crypto punk right but there's only one crypto punk right even board Apes is not a crypto bank, right?

1:10:08So I would say that just buy stuff that you like. I mean, if you're really, really good at trading, right, then maybe you can use trade NFTs for living, right? But again, for NFT, I think the key part is not about the trading, right? I mean, the financial part is what makes it more, I would say, liquid, right? But that should not be the main goal, right? I always believe that, I mean, for me, man, we don't have a roadmap, right? But we have a three-step action plan or thesis, depending on how you call it. I believe that NFT is great for building communities. And token is great for distributing their value.

1:10:46And product is good for kind of like reaching the users. So we check the box with NFT. We have three NFT collections. And we build a pretty good community. And then for token, we help launch a token. And then a lot of our holders, they get rich because of meme coin. and MemeCoin is just starting. And then we also have a product like Stickland, like other projects that we are working on. That's how we can get more MemeLand and MemeCoin to more people. So for NFT, it's just a format. If you want to support the team, you want to support the creator, you buy it, you hold it. If you want to sell, you sell.

1:11:30Just like artwork, right? You can be the biggest like a patron, but sometimes you still sell the art. It doesn't mean that you don't like it. But if you really, really like it, you probably don't trade it every single day. So that's how I see NFT, especially for art NFT. You talked about partners. One of your partners and investors is called Tangent. Yep. Right? Yeah, Jason. Who was built by Jason and Daryl Wong. I had both of them on the podcast. Actually, Daryl is trading the Pudgy Penguins. Yep. Why are you working with the Tangent team? I mean, I listen to Jason's podcast. I also follow him.

1:12:13He's one of the few, like I would say, I wouldn't say smart guys because a lot of guys in crypto are very smart. He's one of the honest and objective guys. He say, I mean, he say what he thinks. He doesn't say stuff to shield projects. And I think for me as a founder, I want objective advisors, investors like that. Because it's important for us to listen to honest opinion. Because when you talk to your company, they're always either very bullish or very bearish, but they don't give you a lot of useful information every single day. Meanwhile, for investors, because they have skin in the game, but somehow you also want to talk to someone who are more experienced and you have different views from you.

1:13:05I think Jason and Dero, I think they are like that. And that's why Tangent is our investor at MemeCoin before we launch. And also, I mean, he's kind of like our, I mean, I would see him as an advisor, although we don't have any official relationship, but I talk to him about ideas. We bring some together sometimes. I think that's why, yeah, I'm a fan and lucky to call him investors right now. And then also I told him that, hey, Jason, right? And then if you have any good projects that you want us to invest in, let us know as well, right? So we can be co-investor, yeah. What's a project or a team that you particularly love in crypto and why?

1:13:46I would say, I wouldn't say love, right? Love is a very heavy work, right? But because I'm Asian, I treasure the love work more, more, right? But I would say that I respect a lot of the teams, right? And I love them. I learned from a lot of them, right? Because, again, I'm pretty late to crypto, to Web3. That's why a lot of the projects, they have been around for some time. And then it's kind of like they're in Japanese terms, like sensei, right? Like sensei, right? Like Pudgy Penguins, like Yuga Labs, like Azuki, right? Like even like a lot of newer projects, relatively newer, right? Like D-Gods, right?

1:14:23I think basically projects that haven't died, And then the founders are still kind of like working hard, still grinding, right? I mean, they all have something that we can learn from. Yeah, maybe different like a mechanism in how they run the community. Maybe the marketing strategy, maybe the social media tactics, right? I think all these things that we can learn from them. And of course, from time to time, there are also new projects that are very, very interesting. Maybe they are newer than us, but they actually have like interesting mechanism. Then we also learn from them as well. Because for us, we call ourselves meme land, right?

1:14:53The good thing is we don't even have a very solid direction because anything can be meme, right? And any mechanism that people do, we can also learn from them. Because for us, it's more about the community part, right? It's not about the product. It's not about the feature. So those are the things that I like. And I'm lucky to be in a position that, hey, when we reach out to a team, we almost always can talk to the founders, right? because either they know that we are from Web3, they know us from Web3 Meme Land and stuff. They don't talk to us about partnership and stuff. Or they knew us in Web2 because of NightGate.

1:15:32Oh, they used NightGate before. So those are the things that help us open more doors so that we can learn faster. Because it's almost like you can learn by reading books, but you can learn faster when you talk to the author. It's kind of like that in crypto. If you could meet the 18 years old Ray today, what would you tell him? Yeah, I think that was like 22 years ago. Yeah, I'm like 40 this year. Yeah Actually, no, I mean just to do your best. Yeah, I think Actually don't think about this kind of like imaginary question that much because I feel like the young Ray probably didn't give a fuck about the old Ray.

1:16:14Yeah, because I didn't even give a fuck about what my father said, right? Why would I care about future Ray? And I would think that, hey, you didn't do a very good job. Yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, so I probably won't listen to him. But again, I would say that I'm very lucky in a way that I don't have that many regrets in life. Of course, my first son, I think, I would say that maybe there are some regrets, But there's not much that I can do at the time because human beings, it's really hard to fight disease anyway. But I would say that even some misfortune, I would say that it's like I can kind of turn it into a fortune.

1:16:54Not really money kind of fortune, but more like a good event so that I can learn from. It's a learning, it's an experience. And that's why I always feel like just do our best and then if it didn't work at the time, maybe there's a reason for that. What can we learn from it? For example, I didn't study well at university. I studied kind of well in high school and then I didn't study well in university. But it's not the end of the world. When I look at my classmates, I believe that I have a happier life than most of them. Not most, some of them. I think a lot of them are also very happy, right? Yeah, and then, okay, oh, for Naigat, right?

1:17:41We didn't become like the best platform, right? Because at the time, I still remember in 2012, at one point, I think we actually have more users than Reddit, right? Right now Reddit is like a giant, right? In the social media space, right? After like 10, 20 years of surviving, right? And then they just got listed on the exchange and stuff like that. and then they are one of the driving forces in a lot of topics in the world these days. So we couldn't be Reddit, right? But I mean, we still have NIGET, right? We still treasure what we have. Okay, oh, I didn't buy Bitcoin early. I didn't buy ETH early, right?

1:18:19But it doesn't really matter, right? Because, oh, we still have like MemeCoin, right? I still have a chance to learn so much about different projects, different founders. I got into Web3, right? And I believe that I'm earlier than like 95 % of people on Earth, right? So I still find myself very blessed. And I think because of that, I don't really think about the, oh, what if, what if, right? I don't think about that, right? I'm not muffled. I don't have to create another series called What If, right? But for me, yeah, I would say that I appreciate all this experience because that's how the current me is shaped, right?

1:18:56Or continue to be shaped, yeah. What's your biggest prediction for the next 12 months? in what area? Whatever you want. I don't really predict the future, right? That's a quote, right? I mean, I make the future, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a quote, yeah. I think most of the time, I mean, even when you look at all these experts, predicting the market, I don't think they can predict shit, right? Yeah, I think you learn from them, you understand their hypothesis, you understand their reasoning, but most of the time, it's not right, right? I think either the timing is not right, either the prize is not right, other reason is not right.

1:19:36But that's an interesting thing, right? Because you actually, even the expert can be wrong. That means that the new guy can still have a chance to win. I think that's a fun thing about life, right? I think the only thing that we can really predict is we will all die, right? And other things we actually don't know. Maybe, oh, we plan our schedule for the next trip and stuff. Oh, maybe that's events get canceled. We can't even plan that. Why do we have to plan so much or predict so much? I would say that there are some trends that is quite obvious, that, hey, if you are riding on that wave, then probably it's good enough.

1:20:13For example, I believe that, but this is not prediction, but it's almost too obvious that I believe that, okay, Web3 will get more and more adopted in real world. On one hand, even the government is pushing Web3 in Hong Kong. And not to mention, okay, Bitcoin, ETH, ETF, and stuff like that. I think you can almost say that the cryptocurrency is already part of, like, legitimized by the general public. Of course, it raised another question. It's okay, even it wasn't like crypto. It started as a fight against authority, against the government. We talk about decentralization, but how come the main reason for Bitcoin to pump is because it gets an ETF?

1:21:00Why? But that's the question that I don't know how to answer. But for me, I believe that this is less about the financial part, but more about the tech part. I still believe that without this kind of new tech, it's really hard to push the current stakeholders to change. It's almost like, hey, if there's no online, then Walmart will never change. They don't need to change. But because of Amazon, they have to change. I think because of crypto, all these banks, they have to change. And that's how human beings live a better life, because of all these new disruption. And that's why I try my best, I do my best, to always embrace changes, because changes is the only thing that doesn't change.

1:21:48So I would say that's something that will happen, definitely. I'm bullish. Not because of the, oh, whether Bitcoin can reach like 1.5 million in the next 10 years. I'm not Kevin Wood. I don't have to predict that. But I believe that more and more people will get into wealth free one way or another. Thank you, Ray. Thank you for being such an open person. Thank you for this amazing conversation. And thank you for making my life and the life of another 200 million people a little more wholesome every day with nine gags and your memes. Thank you. Thank you.