Akhenaten and Nefertiti: religious revolution in ancient Egypt

27:30Okay, so you just think pure threat, right? Pure threat. Threat. Pure threat. Pure threat sounds like an Egyptian pharaoh. It could be, actually. Just pure threat. Oh, I think he even bribed them and was like, hey, I'm going to give you some gold. Akhenaten says, right, we're going to move the capital city away from the traditional area of what is now modern Cairo, the city of Memphis. And we're going to move it into the middle of nowhere in the barren desert. and I'm going to call my new city the Horizon of the Aten, which is very on trend with the whole sun cult. So confusingly, the ancient Egyptian name of the city is Akhet Aten, meaning Horizon of the Aten, of the sun disk.

28:19And the king's name is Aken Aten, beneficent one for the Aten. So it gets confusing. This is the principal royal residence and Aken Aten says multiple times in big inscriptions, I am never going to leave this place. and I'm going to be buried here and the royal family are going to be buried here. And he just constructs this massive city in the space of maybe 15 years. In the middle of the desert? Pretty inhospitable. Nothing there. Next to the Nile. Okay, all right. So when you say move, like he literally like dug up the town and moved or displayed like, oh, you lot, we're going. He moves the people.

28:56He moves the people and I suspect because his dad is sitting in his throne and he's not going out to war. he's got so much time to build stuff. There are people who are ready to build. So he moves the builders. He doesn't move the actual stuff. He doesn't move the buildings. Later kings do that. But he starts fresh because he makes this thing of this is virgin land. It's not sacred to any god or any goddess. Let's just start from scratch because we're shaking it up. But he also trashes some of the existing temples, right? Oh, yeah. He doesn't just say new religion. He vandalizes the existing temples, the existing gods who have been, they've been revered for 1500 years by this point, 2000 years by this point.

29:40There's an interesting theory that maybe this kind of reaction against the old gods happens later on in Akhenaten's reign where things start going wrong. So his big revolution seems to have cracks in it. And he thinks, this is the bad luck from the old gods. I've got to go and attack them. So especially the god Amun gets totally removed from every standing monument. Akhenaten sends people with chisels out, some of them who can't read the text properly and who are carving out the wrong thing. But he even attacks his dad's name. So if you remember, his dad is called Amun-hotep. Yeah. He attacks the Amun part of his dad's own name.

30:19Wow. Okay, so he can't be worshipping his dad then if he's attacking his dad's name. Maybe he's worshipping the sun god form of his dad. Maybe not the moon part of his dad. Wow. Prep for a busy week with Whole Foods Market. Start your day with fully cooked breakfast sausages from Amy Liu, 365 brand frozen waffles with no bleached flours, and of course Whole Foods Market eggs, which are all cage-free or better. In the evening, bring home a build-your-own family meal that feeds four for just$35. Choose one entree and two sides. Shop smarter, not harder at Whole Foods Market. Is the West Bank reaching a tipping point?

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31:51speak, they were in trouble. This is the problem we have in modern politics. We did a referendum and now we're in. This is what happens. You gave the people the vote. So if you had limitless power, Sakisa, you'd be building a brand new city. Oh, if I had power, the world would be crazy. I would do so much. He's obviously trying to bring people around to his brand new religion, his brand new revolution, his brand new city. To me, it sounds like a sort a series of red flags, but I guess he's the pharaoh. He's a god. He can do what he wants. I mean, Takeda, how do you think Nefertiti took to this?

32:27Her husband has got this big, bold new religion. Do you think she's a supportive queen? No. I think she's an independent woman, and I don't think she was very much like, I don't want to move. Are you making us move? I don't want to move. And she'd be like, why are we moving? I think there was a lot of questions, and I don't think she was happy about it. Right. and was like, we're happy how we are. I think she was kind of like, you're being a typical man. You want to do this thing and you've not thought about it. So you think she's like Victoria Beckham having to move to Madrid and being like, I don't want to live in Madrid.

33:01I've got quite a lot of friends who've got husbands who complain about how they want to do something and they've not thought about how it's going to process and how you get to that end point. I think exactly this is what's happened. And, you know, the kids have to start a new school. I mean, it's time, right? You know, we've got to think about these things. How are we going to move? Like, have you thought about where we're going? Have you thought about the weather scheme? Yeah, I mean, you know, exactly that. Doctors, surgeries, dentists, you know, you've got to - All of those things. You know, important.

33:29I think you're right, Sakisa, that there's a lot of eye rolling. Yeah, of course I am. It's a woman. Oh God. He's doing this. I'm going to have to follow him. So Nefertiti is very prominent in all the arts. So she's with him. Yeah. Whether she's actively supportive, not sure. Some evidence against. She gets her own palace. So she's at a distance from him. I'm getting my own house, yeah. She is mentioned in an inscription where the king says, I'm going to make these decisions and the great royal wife, Queen Nefertiti, is not going to argue with me. So the idea is there that they're having a bit of a to-do.

34:08And her mother-in-law is on the scene. So Akhenaten's mum, Queen T, is still alive. And she probably lives at this site, the site of what we call Amarna today. And so if I was Nefertiti, I would want my own palace. Yeah, because if the mother-in-law is still there, that's the worst thing, isn't it? Why is she here? Go away. It's like that J-Lo movie, Monster-in-Law. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so we have a brand new city. We have perhaps squabbling royals, or maybe not, but perhaps there's some tension there. Tell us about the city itself. Tell us about Akinhatan. Akinhatan? Akinhatan. Akinhatan. Akinhatan.

34:48So we call it Amarna today. Yeah, I was going to say. So you'll hear people talk about the Amarna period. So this is this 20 years where the capital city moves to this area of Middle Egypt. So it's about seven kilometers along the Nile. So it's big. Yeah. It is mainly the king's palace or series of palaces, Nefertiti's got her own, and temples. Unlike traditional Egyptian temples, which have got roofs on the inner parts where you can worship God's statues. Because the God is the sun, nothing has a roof. So you go and the royal family, at least, worship in these temples. There is a major road connecting the palace and the temple.

35:29And because the ancient Egyptians were used to God's statues being taken in procession and everyone having a party, they're totally deprived of that. So Akhenaten and Nefertiti decide, do you know what? we're just going to be the gods and we're going to ride between the palace and the temple in a chariot and we're going to snog and that is your religion so you can invite so kisa your face right now is a picture i'm confused how have we diverted to this so so akhenaten and nefertiti bring the kind of the high officials along and they have to publicly at least buy into this crazy new scheme. But it's interesting in the art depictions of what the city is like.

36:12There are soldiers shown flanking this royal chariot. Never before seen soldiers. You do suspect there's a bit level of unpopularity about this. Some bodyguards to keep the king safe. To keep the kind of obstreperous masses at arm's length. I mean, yeah. And that's the interesting question, I suppose. How many people do we think maybe move to this city? Like, it's a big city geographically. Yeah, yes. But is it 10 ,000, 50 ,000 people? How many people live here? It could be anywhere between 10 ,000 and 50 ,000 people. Amazing. But so the elite people, the actual, like the rich people who are making any of the decisions, the royal family and the elite are maybe, I don't know, 100 people in total.

36:54And then everyone else is building or servants. So it sounds like it's a failure. It sounds like this move was kind of like not going very well. Doomed to failure. And actually you mentioned building there that they do something radical here in ancient Egyptian history. They revolutionize the kind of construction process by making the block smaller. Yeah. So the temples and the palaces and the houses are built of mud bricks mainly, but there's a lot of stone being used, local limestone. So unlike the pyramids, where if you've heard anything about pyramid building, you take a team of guys and they drag a big old stone on a sledge.

37:33They might have used ramps. They might use pulleys. They use big blocks and a whole team do the dragging. At Amarna, Akhenaten says, okay, I want this done double quick time. So I want the blocks to be smaller so you can throw up the buildings quicker and I want each block just to be enough for one man to carry. Which sounds great, but actually one person holding one block is much worse for your back. than a team of people dragging a bigger weight. Yeah. So it's not the health and safety. Not great. Not great. Okay. So we've got thousands of workers, sort of each carrying one block each. Yes. And building this sort of temple and city in 10, 15 years.

38:17Yeah, yeah, yeah. Incredibly busy. But also, you know, we've got the artistic tradition changes too. Have you ever seen any Egyptian, ancient Egyptian art? Have you ever seen any of the kind of famous murals or, you know, inside the tomb of Tutankhamun Yeah, it's only like the pictures and the hieroglyphics, hieroglyphics of like the sticks, stuff like that. But that's about it. Nothing like of like where they were, apart from like obviously the women. Yeah. The women pictures of them being in that thrones and being gorgeous and obviously like that. But they're often depicted side on, right? I mean, gods are pictured side on.

38:49People are, it's often a sort of two-dimensional. Yeah, it's always like this. Yeah, it's like, it's the chemist's. Profile. Yeah, it's this profile. They're like, this is my good side. Yeah, my good side. But we get a brand new revolution in art in this period. And the Amarna style of art is weird. Yes, even by ancient Egyptian standards, which in some ways doesn't come up to what we might expect of Renaissance art. It is weird. It's totally strange. It's worth saying also that Amarna, the city, now if you visit, is a desert. It's 50 shades of beige. But actually in ancient times, you would have...

39:23One of my favourite erotic novels. Oh, indeed. you would have the insides of these palaces would be eye-poppingly colorful. There's lots of gold, there are inlays. We've got all the fragments of these. And the scenes on the temple walls show, for a start, the weirdness of the gods. So the god is just the sun. There are only ever the royal family shown worshiping the sun. Any flunkies are way down the kind of pecking order. But actual people are shown very differently. They have long, elongated skulls. They have long, spindly legs, big bums, thighs, long, thin feet. So even to an ancient Egyptian...

40:05Quite rotund bellies. Yeah, quite a pronounced belly and quite androgynous. So men and women, which previously had been shown quite differently, are shown very similarly. So to an ancient Egyptian artist who was told, go away and help build this temple, they would have had to learn these new skills, these new techniques. They just look very weird, even to an ancient Egyptian. But the artistic style is radical and it's weird, but it also shows Nefertiti doing manly things, kingly things. Yes. So Nefertiti is a force to be reckoned with. She is present with her husband, as you'd expect the queen of Egypt to be.

40:43But she's also shown on her own a lot, worshipping the Aten on her own. and in one scene she's even shown beating up a foreign enemy. So that is usually just the pharaoh is shown with a mace smashing in the skull of a foreign captive. So she does a bit of that. So there's a different aspect. Independence, yeah. Independent woman. Be a queen, yeah. She's often shown with her husband interacting with the children. This is super weird also. Usually the king and queen in ancient Egypt are never shown with any level of affection or emotion. You never get family scenes. You never get the king touching anybody.

41:25But Amarna, as I said, there's this regular procession. Akhenaten and Nefertiti are shown kissing each other and their own children. They're depicted in a way that invites us to believe that it was a very kind of airy-fairy, floaty existence where everyone loved each other. The reality is likely to have been quite different, living in separate palaces yeah what I'm getting from that is that they're trying to like make it a bit like Real Housewives to be like this is a real relationship or actually it does not actually yeah Real Housewives of Amarna yeah yeah yeah yeah we're like give me the gossip that's what I like because you've got Queen T in the background and you've got Nefertiti yeah and then you've got the kids and then you've got the kind of the dad of the family who's like I'm the god now yeah it's all quite tense yeah I want to see that drama please make it The real Housewives of Manor would be amazing.

42:17And actually, Akhenaten Asakisa, he doesn't live long. Do you know how old he is when he goes? Oh, 26. He's not, actually, he's older than that. I mean, okay. 32. That might be about right. Maybe. So the reign lasts, it seems, about 17 years. Oh, that's not bad, actually. So if you imagine he came to the throne at 15, he's still only in his 30s, so young by modern standards. Yeah. And when he dies, does everyone go, right? Or is there a kind of continuity thing? Does Nefertiti step in? Well, this is really interesting. I think there are definitely sighs of relief in some quarters. Like, gosh, thank goodness that's over.

42:58Because, you know, while Akhenaten's doing all this and he's getting the elite people to worship the Aten, we know from archaeology from the city of Amarna, which was abandoned shortly after Akhenaten's reign, tells you something. It's a gift for archaeology because no one built on top of it. So it is like an ancient Egyptian Pompeii. You can literally go in, see what people were using in the houses. And so all the regular people were still using images and amulets of the old gods. So that rather implies his Atenism wasn't that popular with ordinary people. So yeah, when Akhenaten dies, there are a lot of questions about what happens next.

43:40Maybe he has a son who comes along and rules beside him for a period, a guy called Smenich Kare. Then there's a mistake, the names get really, really weird now. There's another person called Nefer-Neferu-Aten, who is meant to also be a king-like figure who might share the throne with Akhenaten and lives slightly after Akhenaten. And for some Egyptologists, this is Nefertiti by a different name. So the husband dies and she says, right, I've waited long enough. I am the Pharaoh now. So not just the Queen of Egypt, I am the Pharaoh. And she starts reversing the decisions of her husband and she brings back Amunism.

44:27And then eventually King Tutankhamen or Tutankhamen as he is, he fully sees through the counter-revolution and he fully brings back the worship of Amun. So Nefertiti might be undoing her husband's work. We're not sure. To be fair, I could understand that. Let's just slowly, but surely, let's go back to the way things should be. This went too far. It went too far. It was a joke. We'll go back. I just let my husband do his thing. I'll just make sure he's happy, you know, happy wife, happy life, sort of. But yeah. But as you say, it's fascinating. The Armana archaeological sites is an amazing window into ordinary lives too, isn't it?

45:06It's interesting. Because people ditched it, right? they just went, we're going back home. We're going back to Thebes. It is interesting the fact they didn't touch it. Yeah, almost like it was like scorched earth policy. They reused a lot of the stone, but laterally they tried to forget about that part of Egyptian history. And there is a dark side to this because although the palaces are very beautiful and they made a real focus on naturalism in art. So there's lots of plants, flowers. there are good bits of evidence that the people that did all the building lived very short very hard lives so there are cemeteries of people who literally had their backs broken young kids plagues seem to have swept through the city it was not a particularly pleasant place to live unless you're Akhenaten and Nefertiti so it's maybe no surprise that there was a counter revolution there was a reaction against this idealism, this utopianism of Akhenaten.

46:08Maybe it's like a tourist-like area for them. Maybe they were like, if you're feeling a little bit down, go to this place, it'll cheer you up. Because that's where you could be living. Yeah, exactly. That's what you could have won. I mean, I guess we've already introduced a couple of name changes because he was Amenhotep IV, then Akhenaten, then he died. Sakisa, he got a new name after death. New name after death. Yeah. Do you want to guess what it was? We rebranded. They did. This could be a good wrestling name. Nookie.

46:43I'm trying to like figure out like if it's a shorter version, just beginning with N, just Nookie. No, I mean, that's cute. That's a cute, lovely name. It wasn't quite as good as that. It was closer to like, you know, more like The Undertaker, more like a kind of a, more like a heel character because he's the baddie, right? Yeah, he's the rebel or that criminal. what was the Egyptian pronunciation I can't think off the top of my head Hefet might be the one yeah Hefet yeah I mean he's they're not even calling him by his name though they're just like that yeah that dude that guy who did the bad stuff which in ancient Egypt where there's such a focus on names and carving your name onto everything and everyone remembering the name if you are not referred to by name you're just that guy that rebel yeah I've got loads of people that that called that just that guy and the temples of Aten that had been built they were smashed to the ground you know there's no like it's not like they sort of just go well we'll just leave it behind and just go back home they trash it all that hard work yeah all those broken backs oh my god that's disrespectful I would be annoyed but that's also anger right that's people who are angry like they take it out on the religion the religion he forced upon them they're like no no so we get this sort of sense of vandalism of anger and of people writing you know returning to the old ways the old gods yeah so when later egyptians are listing the great kings of egypt they leave a conspicuous gap so akhenaten we're not going to talk about him so it goes from his dad to one of akhenaten's successors they completely miss out nefertiti if she was a king tutankhamen is also tarnished by association.

48:27Even though he changed his name back to Amun. Even though Tutankhamen actually did the counter-revolution and brought things back to the way they used to be, he gets written out. They just get written out of history. It does seem a bit like modern history. Yeah. This is what people do. It's reflecting. It's reflecting. This is what people do. You know what? I don't appreciate them cutting out Naftiti. No. What happened to her, actually? I mean, that's a good point. Does she get, you know, You say she gets written out of history, but does she die powerful and rich and glamorous or is there a kind of...

48:58We do not know whether she dies as the Queen of Egypt during the reign of Akhenaten, that's possible, or maybe she kind of transforms into being the Pharaoh. There was a theory for a while that she was actually buried in secret rooms in the tomb of Tutankhamen that haven't been found yet. But that radar results were kind of unsure. So that doesn't seem likely. she just disappears from the history books and only comes back as a kind of figure in history in the late 19th century and with the discovery of that bust that brings her up to modern times and has a great impact on popular culture yeah so there we go what a story Sakisa right yeah it's actually very interesting I did take some notes and it was glad to hear about her husband I will say that yeah okay because he's like Like, men don't get talked about enough.

49:51It's important to history, it's true. I feel like it's about time. Yeah, writing those wrongs. Yeah, it's about time. It's a new area. Equality, we need equality. I mean, I sort of feel bad for him because it's almost like people just hit undo. They just like, he spent 15 years building a brand new religion, a brand new city, and then they just went, nope. So yeah, so they just hit the control Z, undo, and that's it. He's wiped from history, and now we sort of know about him as a sort of villain of ancient Egyptian history. Yeah, like you said, it's so much work. So many people literally broke their backs building that place.

50:23All the statues, all the temples, all the palaces, gone, all gone, overnight. Used as fell for other buildings. It happens to us all, you know. Okay. The Nuance Window!

50:40It's time now for the Nuance Window. This is where Sikisa and I sit silently for two minutes drawing strangely proportioned portraits of each other while Dr. Campbell takes centre stage to tell us something. We need to know about Akhenaten and Nefertiti. I'm going to get my stopwatch up. Okay. You've got two minutes on the clock. Let's get that. There we go. Okay, two minutes on the clock. Take it away, Dr. Price. So of anything we've been talking about today, I think people will be most familiar with that picture of the Nefertiti painted plaster bust. Long neck, tall blue crown. It was found in 1912 by a German team and is now in Berlin, although its transport to Germany is a part of a division of archaeological finds has been contested.

51:26The Nefertiti bust is, though, perhaps the most weird sculpture of any we have from ancient Egypt. Strangely truncated, it's not part of a larger statue. Its function is unclear. But there was a matching Akhenaten. he's very bashed up so he's almost totally forgotten nefertiti survives in such perfection that she's been accused of being a fake which she's not nefertiti because of that bust is an icon she's an every woman she's both an african queen and in the words of adolf hitler an aryan she can be anything to anyone but i want to emphasize we'll never really know what the living woman looked like.

52:09Because as we've been saying, a lot of this art is highly stylized. She did not look like this. The metrical proportions of the face are totally unnatural, totally unhuman. But what I think accounts for her timelessness is that we can't see her hair. She's wearing this tall blue crown, which if her hair was showing that would make her more attributable to ancient Egypt without the hair, she can be the bride of Frankenstein. She can be an intergalactic space queen. She can be anything you want her to be. Like the most popular royals today, we can project any identity we want onto her. Amazing. One minute 54.

52:55Look at that. So punctual. And I drew a picture of you. Oh, thanks Akisa. You know, the idea of her as a kind of African queen, but also a beauty standard is interesting. People get plastic surgery to look like a face that never existed. Yeah, because obviously people get tattoos and stuff like that of her face. It's just her and Cleopatra, obviously iconic in like women's, in like Queen independence and stuff like that. So I can see why people were so fascinated with her. And obviously the picture that you showed me, it shows like a proper beauty. and obviously when people are like African queens.

53:37Great cheekbones. Yeah, people are like, Nefertiti, she's great. I mean, actually, she's not. Maybe she was great, but we're not really sure. I mean, as you said, they may find her bones one day. They've been looking, haven't they? They've been sort of hunting her down. Yeah, there are candidates out there, but we'll never really be sure because, yeah, DNA is not a magic wand that just tells us exactly who people were. But there we go. So that's the story of Akhenaten and Nefertiti. Maybe a power couple, maybe a kind of squabbling couple who didn't agree and, you know, maybe she undid everything he achieved or didn't achieve.

54:08Your mother-in-law's here and here. Why's she here? She doesn't even cook. No, she didn't cook but she ate. She's chowing down on a big steak. All she does is eat. She doesn't even look after the kids. What's our purpose here? So what do you know now?

54:30it's time now for our quiz this is so what do you know now this is our quickfire quiz for sakisa to see how much you have learned sakisa you are both a comedian and also an immigration lawyer you are extremely brainy and very accomplished you must be good at learning things because you know law degrees are hard so you've been taking notes do you feel confident no i discovered i was just next four years ago so oh so a lot of things may just go in and go And also, all these names have been spelt wrong. In fairness, no one is spelling these names correctly, even with loads of... They are hard, hard names, right?

55:07Okay, but we'll give it our best shot. I have been listening and I was very intrigued. Okay, 10 questions. Okay, question one. Akhenaten ruled during the 18th dynasty, during this sort of very famous era, when pharaohs were so rich, gold was said to be as common as what? Dust. Very good, we're up and running. Question two. What did Nefertiti's name literally translate to? Do you remember? The really pretty lady. Who has? Who has. Remember, import bride? No. The really pretty lady. That's what I got. The beautiful lady who has come. I'm going to let you have that because I think it is, you know, a really pretty lady.

55:42I think it's pretty good. Question three. How was Akhenaten's new favourite god, the Aten, portrayed in ancient Egyptian art? Oh, with that. yeah it's radiosy kids give us words oh sorry with the sun and the hands out touching them because they were only worshipping the royalty very good yes and originally a sort of falcon headed god but yeah later on a sun disc with weird little fingers question four how old was nefertiti when she married ark and natan we've got four possibilities between the ages of eight to sixteen very good excellent brilliant so there you go that's the law there was a debate about that yes 8 9 12 16 very good question five nefertiti and akhenaten definitely had six daughters but which of their possible sons has become very famous to history tutankhamen very good uh king little touch uh question six name one strange aspect of how humans are depicted in the famous amana style of ancient egyptian art produced during akhenaten's reign what is it about their kind of depiction that's weird oh that they're not facing sideways yeah and also in terms of their bodies, their sort of physiology?

56:53Fat. Yeah, fat, long necks, long heads, skulls. Yeah, I'll give you that. Question seven. Akhetaten, or Akhetaten, the city, was the brand new capital. What was different about the stone blocks used to construct? They were smaller. Yeah, so that individuals could carry them and then be hurt doing so. Question eight. What was unusual about what the royal couple were shown doing in their royal art? They were affectionate with each other. They were. They were kissing, they were snogging. They had their kids with them. Yeah, exactly. It's like sort of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert and that sort of famous Christmas card.

57:25Yeah, absolutely. This is question nine. You're doing so well so far. Name one way in which Akhenaten's religious revolution was undone after his death. They took down the pyramids and buildings. Yeah, the city, yeah, the temples. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They also trashed his name and wrote him out of history. And this for a perfect tense, Akhisa, what is one possibility for what happened to Nefertiti after her husband died? That she became pharaoh and changed. I'll accept it. Yeah. Ten out of ten. Very good. Yay me. Very well taught, Dr. Price. Very impressive and very well learned, Sakisa. Well done.

57:58I did learn something today. You did. I mean, your notes obviously were effective. I didn't even look at them. Look at that. Amazing. Thank you so much, Sakisa. I hope you've enjoyed that. I mean, I enjoyed that. Yeah, it was fun. It was educational. It was. If you're not laughing, you are learning. Sometimes we did both. Listener, if you want more Ancient Egypt with Campbell, check out our episode on other impressive pharaohs. So we had Hatshepsut, the kind of pharaoh queen. And of course, Ramesses the Great. The great ego has landed. For more radical rulers from history, we've got episodes on Emperor Nero.

58:29We did that with Patton Oswalt. We did Frederick the Great with Stephen Fry. We did Catherine the Great with David Mitchell. We've done some greats. We've done a lot of sort of kings and queens through history. So check out the back catalogue. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our amazing guests in History Corner, in Ancient History Corner. We had the stellar Dr. Campbell Price from Manchester Museum. Thank you, Campbell. Thank you. And in Comedy Corner, we had sensational Sakisa. Thank you, Sakisa. Thank you for teaching me something new. Absolutely. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we find more forgotten figures to elevate or relegate, depending on what they did.

59:03But for now, I'm off to go and build a new capital city dedicated to BBC broadcasting legend Akit Attenborough. Bye.

59:24This Cultural Life from BBC Radio 4. I will never go into anything so deep like that again. The world's leading artistic figures reveal their creative influences. Disobey, disagree, disavow. I'm John Wilson and my recent guests have included the sculptor Anish Kapoor, photographer Annie Leibovitz, the actor Kristen Scott Thomas. It has made me good at telling stories about people who have a secret suffering. and former Children's Laureate Frank Cotterall Boyce. If art's got one function, it's to point to what's wonderful and say, look, this is your world. It's insane. Listen to This Cultural Life on BBC Sounds.

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